April 17, 2025 • 43 mins
What does it mean to actually lead with empathy? In this candid, energizing episode, Farnoosh sits down with Claude Silver, Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia, to explore how emotional intelligence, radical transparency, and kindness can shape corporate culture. From redefining empathy as “riding shotgun” on someone’s journey to building an award-winning workplace from the inside out, Claude shares the origin story of her unconventional role, the challenges of navigating hybrid work, and her bold philosophy of emotional efficiency.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Rube.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
When I think about empathy, which is such an overused
word today, to me, it's not putting on your shoes.
It's not stepping into your shoes. I could never do that.
I think about empathy as being a passenger with you
on your journey, if you let me, putting my hand
on your shoulder and being like I got you, I
got you, Like, let's do this. There's no friction we
cannot solve. But it takes the right culture. It takes
(00:28):
a willingness to be transparent and to have communication. I
firmly believe.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That that's Claude Silver offering up a new way to
think about empathy, not as stepping into someone else's shoes,
but as writing shotgun on their journey. And as you'll hear,
that's not just a personal philosophy, it's her job. Claude
is the Chief Heart Officer at Vaynermedia. Yeah, Heart officer.
(00:53):
It's a real c suite role at one of the
most talked about media companies in the world, and Claude's
mission is to scale emotional intelligence inside the workplace. In
this conversation, she breaks down what that actually means and
how empathy, when done right isn't soft, it's strategic. Claude
and I go way back, but this was the first
(01:13):
time I had the chance to really dig into her
leadership style, how it was shaped by her childhood, her
nana who literally called her heart, her experience in therapy,
and her early years navigating corporate culture as a sensitive,
intuitive person. We also get into hybrid work, difficult conversations, parenting, burnout,
and why kindness at work is having a long overdue moment.
(01:36):
I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
executives making an impact. Claude Silver, Welcome. It's so nice
to see you, and we're in person. Let's just announce
that because that's a special treat.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It's awesome. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me.
I've known you for many years.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I don't know if I've ever had this opportunity to
really understand your leadership style. Where sourced and so let's
go to childhood. As we're both moms, we know our kids.
When we look back on their childhoods, it won't be
a coincidence. Maybe who they become or their talents. But
as a child, you were repeatedly told Claude that you
(02:14):
think too much with the heart, and now you're the
chief heart officer at Vayner Media. Was there a moment
in your life or your career where you realize that
leading with heart was actually your greatest strength?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, there absolutely was, And it took me a long
time to get there because I actually felt like something
was wrong with me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Oh yeah, I thought when my parents would love in
their hearts, would say to me, Claude, you think too
much with your heart. You have to learn how to
think with your head. And sometimes they would compare me
to my brother Caleb, who is much more analytical than
I am. But I thought, oh gosh, I must have
a missing chip, like what's going on? What's happening? And
so it took a lot of years, a lot of therapy,
a lot of different things to finally understand, Oh, being
(02:57):
an EmPATH actually is my superpower? Why don't I lean
in to it? And it really was my Nana, who
we called each other heart. That's like the crazy thing.
Oh she called me heart and I called her heart.
She basically was the kindest, most generous person I had
ever known in my life, and I really credit her
for emotionally raising me in many ways for kind of
(03:17):
shining the light on Hey, it's okay, it's good, like,
this is who you are. Don't hide it, don't try
to change it, because you can't. I really can't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
You studied it too before this became kind of your
professional identity. You have a background in human psychology. How
did that inform your brand so to speak? Today?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, so I do have a background in human behavior,
human psychology, spirituality, and what that showed me, What that
gave me was that, Wow, we're all so similar and
we have different lived experiences, but we all go through
very similar emotions. It just happens to be we're triggered
by different things because of our background. So what that
(03:56):
gave me was pattern recognition. Being dyslexic, I had to
learn really early on how to find my way in
the world and how to navigate my way, and I
think patterns was how I got there. When people are
in pain, when people are expressing joy, when people are
expressing surprise or astonishment, this is how people usually behave.
(04:19):
And so for me, patterns became a shortcut in a
way that I could figure things out quicker. And that
was important to me because I really did feel slow
slower than the average bear, which was never a great feeling.
I think leaning into emotional intelligence, which I didn't even
know the name for it, I think I really put
(04:39):
myself through an incredible education called life. I didn't graduate
college until I was twenty eight, so I did a
lot of this extracurricular studying on my own because I
was passionate about it, not because someone told me I
had to in order to get a degree, which is
a big difference.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Were you concerned about finding your way through corporate as
an empact?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was concerned that I wouldn't find my way period
anywhere for a long time until it seemed like the
skill sets I have seemed to match what this job needs,
and what those first early jobs were were client relations.
So okay, you know, I like people, and I'm curious
about people, and I'm a good question asker, and I
(05:24):
think that opened the door to furthering my career, and
I've always done agency work. I landed in advertising agencies.
It was right after the dot com boom, the first one.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
What was that like? I wanted to ask you about
that your early days in advertising being in like the
right place at the right time, that, of course in
part shaped your digital career.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
One thousand percent. Living in San Francisco. I moved there
in nineteen ninety five, so I was there for some
of the greatest moments, saddest moments, AIDS crisis also, but
also technology. All of a sudden, it was like, Oh,
what is modem? Oh what does that sound?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
What is Yahoo? You know this is all before Google
or Facebook, but really, what is Yahoo?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Still?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
We're asking that question? Does Yahooh?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And it was the wild, wild wild West. And I
didn't feel like I had to be a certain way,
as I think probably the younger generations, generations that came
after me, probably felt like they had to fit more
of a mold. I didn't feel like I needed to
wear pumps. I didn't feel like I needed to wear
(06:32):
some kind of business suit. These were great days of
curiosity and wonder and let's try this and overspend here
and overspend here. So it was a big joy ride
and an adventure. But we knew we were trying to
do things. And all of the companies that I worked with,
even before I got into advertising, were all community based,
(06:53):
and that's where we are today. Every platform is community based.
I believe somewhere we're trying to bring people together and
to bring people closer, even though you know, we could
have another conversation on does that work or does it
not work.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
You also spend time abroad, yes I did. What did
international life teach you about patterns or human psychology? What
did you take from those experiences?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The first thing I took is that as an American,
we think the world revolves around US and America, and
it just doesn't. One of the first things I recognized
was watching the news over there and seeing things about
places that I had never heard about, and in America,
our news is very centered in what's happening here. So
it showed me a that the world is much bigger.
(07:39):
Being in London is very different than when I would
travel other places. I mean London, they're very polite and
they don't like confrontation, so everything comes with a sorry first,
and you're like, but what are you really trying to
say to me? Where are we going here? And again
it showed me that we are all so similar. It
just depends on how we came up in the world
(08:00):
and what we were taught or what we wanted to
run away from, or you know, just that everyone went
through adolescence. And I'm speaking more for the Western world.
We all went through a very similar adolescence. I don't
know what some of the other people in third world
countries and people that are more impoverished and less privileged
than I am have gone through in those stages, but
what I can say is there's such a similarity, and
(08:22):
so when we start to fight with one another, it
hurts because it's like, hey, wait a second, we have
no idea how that person just started their day. We
have no idea what happened to that person from the
hours of six to nine before they opened their laptop
and got online. We have no idea that their dog
was sick, their child was in the hospital, they got
engaged last night, all kinds of things. But that happens
(08:43):
all over the world. And so that's one of the
things that taught me is that you know, not to
quote depeche Mode, but I will oh any time. Okay,
I mean, well, are people? People?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Are people? Are people?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Oh? What kiss it?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
But I'm also learning about Uclaude is that in addition
to your knack for identifying patterns, you're also quite the translator.
You have a code that's like built in you, like
you know the code. You meet people from all walks
of life, and you're able to understand them in a
way that maybe they are not even aware that that's
how they're presenting themselves, but you're seeing them at the
(09:20):
end of the day. I think really important, especially in
the context of work.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I don't know if it's a code, but I take
that as an incredible compliment, so thank you. But I
do see them. I do know that there's something going
on behind someone's eyes, and that could be a surprise
to them or surprise to me. But I like going
with them on the journey. So for me, when I
think about empathy, which is such an overused word today,
to me, it's not putting on your shoes. It's not
(09:45):
stepping into your shoes. I could never do that. I
think about empathy as being a passenger with you on
your journey, if you let me just writing shotgun with you,
putting my hand on your shoulder and being like I
got you, I got you, Like let's do this. There's nothing,
especially the workplace, that we cannot solve unless it's something
to do with a person's health. There's no friction we
(10:06):
cannot solve I firmly believe that. But it takes the
right culture. It takes a willingness to be transparent and
to have communication and to learn. Like people for the
most part have good intentions, right, It's not one hundred
percent all the time, But I don't think we go
into work to go and try to collaborate people. Yes
it's political, and yes there's games and all that junk
(10:28):
that we've lived through. I think they get triggered. I
get triggered just like the next person. So my code
is really figuring out what's going on, what's preventing you
from shining? Why do you have that imposter syndrome? What's
holding you back? Were you told that you needed to
be perfect? Is that why you go and you look
at that person's PowerPoint presentation and you find errors first
(10:50):
before you read the entire story. Just tell me why.
Let's walk through that and then let's reframe that and
think of something different. Like, I wonder what would happen
if you look at that PowerPoint presentation from start to
finish and read it before criticizing it fair?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Would that be?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Like?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I think we can all take that advance. It's human nature.
We look for what's working what's not working? First?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Exactly? You almost said, we look for what's working first
and let's get there one day. Please.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I want to transition to vayner Media. You joined
in twenty fourteen and then you resigned three months later,
you returned as the chief heart officer. I want to
know what happened during those three months, What were you doing,
what were you reflecting on? Why did you leave?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So I was hired by Gary Vaynerchuk, my boss, who's
just a phenomenal guy, phenomenal entrepreneur. I was the first
SVP that he hired, and I was probably the third
oldest person in vayner and I ran Unilever, which was
our largest book of business every time. And about a
year into it, I started to get that feeling that
I had earlier when I was living in London, which
(11:53):
was it's not that important to me if it's red
or brown or blue, or if the copy is incursive
or the grammar is right. That doesn't light me up
at all. And these conversations don't excite me. But what
excites me is the people that are bringing it to fruition,
bringing creative ideas to life. That's what excites me. So
I went to Gary and I said, hey, I love
(12:15):
it here. You're the best. This is the greatest place ever.
But I no longer want to work in advertising. And
then he said, what do you want to do? And
I said, I only care about the people here. I
care about the heart beat. Really heartbeat, is what I said.
And he said, one day we're going to write a
book on heart but I need you to stay for
eighteen more months, and I remember saying, I'll give you six.
He doesn't remember that part of the story. But I
(12:37):
found my backfill and I resign. And during those three months,
I worked out, I walked the dog, I went snowboarding,
I visited my friends. I just freed myself from, quite frankly,
the bondage of a phone and my emails and text messages.
And I just kind of like, I dreamed, what do
(12:58):
I want to do? I know, I don't want to
go back to doing what is going to be very
shiny for me. Any job offer that comes my way
would be very shiny at that point, What do I
want to do? And I thought, okay, well, I'll start
a coaching practice. That seems like something I really enjoy doing.
I want to work with people, and so he called
me back. We had breakfast, we sat down, he said,
that's it, you're coming back. You're going to be chief
(13:18):
Heeart officer. And I knew exactly what that meant, maybe
because he and I speak a very similar code, but
it just made sense to me. We didn't have HR.
I have never been in HR. Now I can tell
you that I am and I've done that.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I have a.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
New appreciation for people in HR. I don't call it that,
I call it people and experience. But when I was
there for those first sixteen months, being one of the
oldest and the OG, I was doing a lot of hiring,
I was doing a lot of terminations. I was that
person that people would come to. I was tenured in
all of those things that you really need in a
fast paced, growing company when you have a lot of
(13:52):
youth there. And so I immediately said to him what are
we doing? And he said, we're building the single greatest
human organization in the history of time. And I said,
sign me up. That's aspirational. And I said, cool, how
do we know if I'm successful? And he said, you
will touch every single human being and deploy empathy throughout
the halls, okay, And then I said I don't want
(14:14):
to do HR and he said, great, You'll hire a
team around you and ret one of Gary's strength, which
is something that he's really taught me, which is you
put people in position to succeed, You set them up
for success, and you dive in on your strengths. And
if I go back to Nana seeing emotional intelligence as
a superpower, and I go, that's what Gary recognized, and
(14:34):
he was like, I need this person to be me
in those rooms that I can't be in. I need
this person to go and figure out all that michig
go as over there, or what the chaos is or
the cynicism over there, and scale that out. And so
I've been with Gary. It'll be eleven years in May,
and I've been chief our officer for nine years almost
to the day. And so that's what I do every
(14:55):
single day. Figure that out on a bigger playing field
now that we've grown so much.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Walk me through a typical day. I would love to
understand how your work and your insights manifest in somebody
else's success.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I love that because at the end of the day,
it is really about ROI, right or it's roe return
on energy. Someone told me that the other day.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I like that. I'll take that. It's actually one of
the architects of Google's project, Aristotle, who said ROE, and
I was like, yes, I will steal anything you give me.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Put that in my pocket.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
A typical day will be having one on one so
people have set up time with me because they heard
I might be a good person to help them connect
with other people, or they want to know about my journey,
or they had a funny meeting with a manager, or
not quite sure if they're up for a raise or
so whatever. People will just come and talk, so we'll
travel through those conversations. It's fifteen minute conversation. I got
(15:48):
pretty quick at figuring out how to get to where
I need to get to and to leave them feeling
better than they did. They felt great, then I'm going
to make them feel even greater. If I can or
at least acknowledge that they are awesome, then I'm going
to have strategy meetings with either people that are across
the globe and our other offices figuring out One of
the things I'm helping people do is where is their smoke?
(16:10):
Where are people unhappy? Where are people happy? Where are
their roses? Where are their thorns? What are we going
to do about that? How are we going to continue
recognizing our people? And where there is cynicism or yuckiness,
what are we going to do it? Like, we have
to get to the root of that, because if we
want to retain rockstar people, then that's our job. And
I work with senior leadership, and I work with all
(16:31):
of our pod leads so SVPs EVPs to figure out
how their people are doing and how are they leading.
So I spend also a lot of time doing leadership training,
like senior leadership high performance training. How do you know
how people feel when you enter a room? How do
you know that if you enter a room with your
(16:51):
head and your phone, you have no clue And actually
that's the energy you just brought into the room. So
the energy is you don't really care, you don't have time,
or you're distracted. So let's reverse that. Let's walk into
a room saying, hey, everyone, how are you doing? How's
your weekend? Those types of things. I talk about new
offices we're opening. I talk about how we can expand
(17:11):
our culture what we call honey empire into those other
offices and places where I don't speak the language. Are
we making sure that in Mexico City we're doing the
trainings in their native language. I do a lot of
financial meetings also, which is crazy because I'm not a
financier at all, but trying to figure out how we
can become more profitable. Where do we have bulk, what
(17:33):
are we doing there? Talent planning, where are high performers?
Where we plotting people? And this is all happening throughout
the day. There's not a wasted meeting, That's what I'll say.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Well, on that, I wanted to go back to those
one on ones that you have. How do you hold
in balance being there for them, having that empathy, but
also being efficient because I think, especially for someone who
may not be familiar with how the meetings get run,
it's a sort of a dump, so to speak, of
all their emotions. Or they are looking for you just
(18:04):
supposide it as a therapist, So how do you sort
of walk the line and be both empathetic and efficient.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I would say they're probably looking for me more to
be a coach, because I put that into the water
that we're not therapists and I'm not a therapist, so
I can't help you there. So I would say we're
coaches and guides for sure, and that is something that
we feed the system constantly. I had a resident that
came and spoke to me yesterday and she asked me
the exact same question. She said, I'm an EmPATH. I
(18:31):
don't know how to be an EmPATH and not take
on people's feelings. And I don't know how to be
an EmPATH and be very successful at my job. And
so one of the things I shared with her and
you brought up the word, which is called efficient, is
You're not going to change your stripes. It's who you are.
Be proud of that. What you need to do is
learn how to create space for another person to have
their stuff, but constantly be pushing self awareness and self
(18:55):
regulation to them, Like, Okay, if this person is sitting
there with Bob or Sally, Oh, Sally, it's really amazing.
You're so self aware. That's really awesome. How do you
handle it when you have a bad day? Oh, I
go into the bathroom and have a cry. Okay, how
else do you handle it when you have a bad day?
I go for a walk? How would you handle it.
If your coworker came to you and had a bad day,
I would say, let's go for a walk. Or if
(19:15):
they say, I don't know, I don't know what I
would do. If I saw someone having a bad day,
That's when I say, actually, you're just as responsible for
this culture as I am. And so what you would
do is say, hey, I notice that you're having a
bad day. You want to go talk? Is there someone
I can connect you with? Those are like just the
little bits that I'm trying to infuse in the system,
which I call emotional efficiency. Quite frankly, this is something
(19:38):
I talk quite a bit about and I have a
book coming out and I really talk about it, emotional optimism,
emotional bravery, and emotional efficiency. And this is a flywheel
that's happening constantly. Emotional optimism is the fact that we
all have bad days, we all go through emotions, We
go through highs, we go through lows. You know, our
dog got sick this morning and then I had to
get on a screen and deal with something that was crying.
Whatever it is, right, So okay, what can I do
(20:00):
with that? I can have faith and hope that it's
going to turn around. Tomorrow. I can have faith and
hope that I can call my best friend, I can
call my brother, I can call someone at work and
they can talk me out of this slump. But I
have to believe in that. That's the optimism. The next
step is emotional bravery. What do I do? What actions
do I take? Knowing that I'm supported, knowing that I'm good?
How can I be braver in this situation? Oh gosh,
(20:23):
I have to have a hard conversation with my boss.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
All right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's up to me to bring my self awareness and
my ability to regulate my own emotions and bring that
conversation to my boss and be brave and it's okay
if my emotions come out, I'm not spilling anywhere. The
more I do that, and the more you do that
within teams, you create efficiency. Efficiency is a shorthand. So
back to this ROI, which is the question, it's how
(20:48):
can we help one another within the workplace of understanding
that emotions are allowed. We are not in a time
and place where we are going to go armor up anymore.
That's not going to work, certainly not going to work
for this generation or Generation Alpha that's going to come
up soon that's the first thing. So how can we
be in a workplace and be feelers and have our
(21:08):
own feelings and still keep our eye on the prize.
We need the entire organization to be rowing in the
same direction, and that means we need to spend a
lot of time with one another having these conversations of like, hey,
your emotions are totally fine. I need you to keep
that in check, though, because when you have an outburst
like that, you've just destroyed the productivity for the rest
(21:31):
of the day for that team. Like, if you're going
to have an outburst, that's cool, go out to the bathroom.
I'll meet you there in five minutes, or I'll have
your you know what I mean? Like, yes, So much
of what I talk about is common sense, and I
recognize it's not common for everyone, But I don't think
it's difficult to be kind and to be effective. I
do think there's a marriage there and those things can
happen if you have the right support around you and
(21:53):
your culture says it's okay, And I don't mean it's
okay because they have banners on the walls. Are like
sore fly, Hi, you can do it. Aspire for greatness
you need to have your values in the water stream.
People need to act on them, and then they become habits.
And this is something that Gary talks about and he
(22:15):
uses the word osmosis, which is something that is very
difficult to teach. You have to experience over and over
over and over. And so what did we start talking
about in the beginning patterns. It's the same exact thing, consistency.
And so when someone consistently behaves a certain way, I
can trust that they're always going to behave that way.
(22:36):
When a person is inconsistent or wobbles, or one day
they're like this, everyone's going to have a little bit
of distrust around that person. What our job is as
leaders is to be able to point that out in
a kind, compassionate but very candorous way to that person
and helping and facilitating other people to do their best
on dealing with it. I didn't say exterminate it, deal
(22:58):
with it. So I shouldn't or the people an experienced
team shouldn't be the people dealing with all of this.
Your managers need to be dealing with some of the
angst or some of the turmoil, or some of the
whatever on your teams.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
When we come back. Claude gets into what it really
looks like to lead with heart in the hard moments
like layoffs, hybrid work tensions, and the emotional weight that
caregivers bring to the office every day. She also shares
why she finally wrote her new book, Be Yourself at Work,
and what she sees on the horizon for the future
of leadership.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The eye has to be on the prize, and the
prize is yes, having a healthy culture and having people
that want to work and that make friends that I'm
devoted to in a place that's kind in this camaraderie,
but I'm also devoted to being successful. I want everyone
to be able to get the raise that they're looking
for and to get the promotion. But that only happens
when the organism is working together. It takes a village.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Stay with us. So when you experience resistance or skepticism
from culture about your ideologies around empathy in the workplace,
what are the most common things that you hear.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So we're a workplace, and we're a business, and we
have to make money, and so sometimes we are going
to be more empire than honey. So our culture is
called honey empire. I'd like to say we're fifty one
percent honey, forty nine percent empire. Some days we're going
to be fifty one percent empire. And so what I
hear about our culture at times is we're just so
(24:40):
focused on the bottom line. We're so focused on sales.
We're so focused on being the best or being the first, Like,
where's the softness, where's the empathy in that clot And
that's a tough one, because yes, I can spend time
with you and show you how we got to that
place or why it's so necessary. Because of the financial
environment that we're all in right now, or certainly the
financial environment that advertising agencies are in today, we have
(25:03):
to be serious about our work, and we have to
be serious about being exceptional with our clients and delivering
on what we said we would deliver on time. Yeah,
and if that goes against your idea of empathy, well
then we can have that talk once you're finished. The
eye has to be on the prize, and the prize is, yes,
having a healthy culture and having people that want to
work and that make friends that I'm devoted to in
(25:26):
a place that's kind and there's camaraderie, but I'm also
devoted to being successful. I want everyone to be able
to get the raise that they're looking for and to
get the promotion. But that only happens when the organism
is working together. It takes a village. And so we
have orientation every other week and I meet every single
new joiner and that can be a C suite employee
(25:46):
sitting with an art director, it doesn't matter. It's all
on zoom. But I love that because it flattens the
organization right then and there. But the first thing I'll
say to them is culture is everyone's responsibility, and wonderful
this screen. You are all now just as responsible for
the culture as I am. And that's a great thing
because you were chosen for a reason. We chose you.
You have the right skill sets and you are going
(26:08):
to bring such wonderful additions to this culture.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I want to talk a little bit about difficult conversations
that you have with your employees around issues of like
coming into a meeting and not looking like you're fully there,
but also harder ones like your positions being eliminated. How
do you do it?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I'm going to put a heading on top of
this topic, which is called accountability. And I believe that
for a culture to be healthy and thriving, there needs
to be accountability and people need to know what they
are accountable and responsible for. That is our job as
the leaders of this company to make sure people know
that and to make sure leadership knows that. That's the
(26:46):
first thing I want to say when it comes time
for that person to be exited. My hope and my prayer,
and I'm like a hawk with this, is that we
have documented and had those conversations along the way. That
is a must. And I'm not talking about waiting for
quarterly reviews. I'm talking about frequent feedback. As a manager,
(27:07):
as a leader, that is your job to make sure
John knows where he is anytime he asks you, right,
what does he need to do? What is he not doing?
Where is he excelling all of those things. By the
time that conversation of an exit comes my way or
comes to the team's way, what I'm expecting is that
it is not going to come as a big surprise.
(27:30):
And that is something we need to get a lot
better at, which is called clarity and communication and making
sure we are holding ourselves accountable as we're holding him accountable.
It has to be a two Way Street. So in
those conversations, I will often sit down and say, I'm sorry,
this is going to be a really challenging conversation. And
based on the conversations, or based on the last reviews,
(27:52):
or based on your behavior last week, or based on
what we've talked about several times now, it's been documented
on how you gossip constantly about a person's appearance or
whatever it is fill in the blank. Today is going
to be your last day. I'm really sorry that we
weren't able to work this out together. Something like that.
What I will say, and this is not to make
(28:15):
it like, oh yeah, I got this down.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
These are hard conversations someone's livelihood. We have an exceptional
alumni program that we created three years ago. So let
me just explain that really quickly. A lot of people
come to Gary, a lot of companies, a lot of cmos,
Hey do you have a social media marketer for my
ex company or my Y company? And we put all
of those jobs into our own database, and we reach
(28:40):
out to people that have either left Vanner Media or
we know we will be exiting. We promise that within
three days, this gentleman, Justin Novello will reach out to you.
He's going to help you with your resume and your
LinkedIn profile, and we will connect you. We can't guarantee
a conversation or a job. Are many times that Gary
(29:01):
will say, I will talk to whomever I know at
that company and I will at least get you a conversation.
So we promise that to every single person, and we've
been really successful. We also have a lot of boomerangs
that come back three years later, five years later, seven
years later. So that's all to say. These conversations are
painful for everyone, and my hope is that we continue
(29:24):
to get better at our communication and get clearer and
more specific so that it is not a surprise when
that person comes in, because that's the worst thing.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, that's quite generous, I think, and I think speaks
for itself when people come back. I think that speaks volumes.
One more question about the workplace, and then I want
to get into your advice for those who want to
maybe take on some of your leadership or like you
have changed your career multiple times, they want to do that,
But I have to ask you about hybrid work. You
(29:56):
have said no one will stand for five days a
week in office Why is it so important to have
flexible work as it speaks to your values as chief
heard officer.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
My values as a chief Heart officer are based around
being human. Yeah, they're really based around common sense things
as we've talked about. It's just it's the basics, and
I really believe our workplaces need to meet us there.
We need time for our own personal health, for our family,
for our friends, for just doing a day to day appointments.
(30:28):
That we just need time to live as free people
as freely as we possibly can, with the commitment that
we will be accountable to our job. I don't think
we need to big brother people. I believe that big
brothering people is the antithesis of what I'm about. It
feels like there's a scarcity in the world, a fear.
You know, why can't we trust people to do the
(30:50):
work that we hire them to do. I understand that
there are times in which we need people in the
office one thousand percent and we want people to look
over someone's shoulder and say, oh, yeah, no, I would
put a little more rust color in there or whatever
it is. But I want people to feel like they
can live their lives and not have to balance this
work life balance that we put in place a century
(31:14):
ago during the factory age when it was eight hours,
eight hours, eight hours.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Has your leadership adjusted in a hybrid model world at
all in terms of, let's say, after someone who's working
remotely from home, what is that person's future in terms
of leading a team? Actually, at right there is the
million dollar question. As a leader, you have an enormous
responsibility to grow and nurture people. So three day in office,
(31:41):
I think is great. If we can do that, I
think we would accomplish a ton, a ton of closeness
and camaraderie and collaboration and curiosity together and then also
being able to go to the dentist at ten o'clock
in the morning. So I really do think hybrid is
the way to go. I believe in flexibility, I believe
and freedom. I believe in giving people the opportunity to
(32:02):
show us what they can do, and if they can't, well,
then we have to have those harder conversations.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
We need you in the office this amount of time.
I will say that what has changed for me the
most is being a mom, you know, and really understanding
what that takes to be a parent or a caregiver.
The emotional package that you wear that I wear as
a parent every day is it's invisible, but it's there.
Oh yeah, And that's one of the things that I'm
(32:29):
really big on right now. We just kicked off a
brand new parents Caregivers group rate a banner to really
have these hard conversations. Not about benefits, That's not what
I'm talking about, but just having the courageous conversations of like, yeah,
my kid has special needs, or my kid has to
have an operation, or I need to be there to
have dinner with my children.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
All right, let's pick your brain and get some advice
for our listeners on reinvention. Career reinvention, you're not shy
to this. What advice would you give to mid career professionals,
especially who feel stagnant in their careers. They want to
do a pivot, but they're afraid.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So what I would say is work with a coach.
Don't do this alone. I would really say, find someone
that you can talk to about what it is your
passionate about, what your values are, what are you great at?
What do you just great at? And you hate doing
because you don't want to get into that box and
dream big, Like, if you feel like you really want
to open up your own flower boutique, then you have
to put that out there and understand it's not going
(33:32):
to happen tomorrow. There are steps that you need to take.
I used to think that you could get from point
A to Z overnight, but I realized you have to
do some planning. So my best advice is to a
go for it and talk to someone about it. Find
someone that is a career coach or a life coach
that you trust that can really help you step by step,
(33:56):
figure out what your dreams are and figure out what
those sprints are to get to the marathon.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, the finish line. The zone of genius work is fun.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
What are some of the trends you think are going
to shape the workplace in the next five years?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
AI, AI, AI, and AI all over the place. You know,
I work in a creative agency, that's all there. We
work in HRIS systems, it's already there. Anything that gives
us more efficiency, I think, and smart to some extent.
We know that there's all these different chat you know,
chatchipt or Claude, which is very just strange to say,
(34:33):
and they're getting more intelligent. The more we use them
and the more you prompt them, and I, for one,
love playing with them. It's like a hobby for me now,
just to see how far I can go. And quite frankly,
they make me smarter. They make me sound smarter.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Do you think it can threaten workforce at Vynermedia? Even
I don't think it.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Can threaten workforce at Vaynermedia. I think we are going
to use it to provide more efficiency and to be
better at our craft. That's what I think, being a
company that is rooted in people, and we're very proud
of that. I don't think that there's going to be
a time where we're going to eliminate twenty jobs because
Claude Chatchpt can do it better. But I think we
are going to use it much more frequently.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You mentioned your book that's coming out soon, Be Yourself
at Work. Tell us a little about the genesis of
this As an author, it's not a small feat when
you take this on, especially you have a big job,
you have a big personal life, and then you add
this to it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, it was a challenge that I set for myself
about ten years ago. I don't know why. It's literally
like some people said, I'm on a round a Maska
calling calling. I went through so much imposter syndrome, so
many days, so many weeks and months, that I put
it on hold. What do I have to say? That's
so new. Everyone's talking about vulnerability in the workplace, Everyone's
saying that stuff. What do I have to say? And
(35:48):
I realized I live it. It's very different. I'm not
a philosopher talking about it. I'm not an academic talking
about it. I'm actually doing it every day and watching
people be themselves at work and certainly promoting that. So
that's what it was about for me, which was literally like,
this is who I am, this is what I have
to offer. I'm not looking to win any Nobil Peace Prize.
(36:10):
I just wanted to see if I could do it.
And it took me five years to do it. It
was a labor of love, That's all I can say.
And thank god I had a supportive partner who could
help and take on the way to the kids and
all of those things.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
I wish more people knew about what it takes to
actually write a book. You know, I sacrifices the trade offs,
the imposter syndrome, the loneliness.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
It's like leadership in many ways. It can be very
lonely and just doing something that you know is a
calling to your point and you just have to do it.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, you just get her done, get or done.
The title of this podcast is leading by Example, So
we want to ask you, as we do all of
our wonderful guests, with your title as Chief Heart Officer.
This is a significant innovation in executive leadership. We think,
how does cho embody the idea of leading by example?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Walking the walk every single day, being accountable for how
I say I'm going to show up and show up
that way when I say earlier in this podcast, how
are you walking into a room? How are you showing
up every single day? If I show up looking at
my phone walking into that room, then I should not
be here.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Listen. If I've learned anything is I'm never walking into
a room with my phone in my face, especially if
you are garrier and thank you. Thank you for that reminder.
We all need it sometimes. Clode Silver, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Thank you partnersh All right, so here we are post
Claude Silver interview, and I have my producer here, Ryan,
who had been listening in the whole time helped us
actually produce this segment.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Wonderful questions you had given me for Claude. Thanks so much, Ryan.
What'd you think?
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I mean, it's impressive having a company as big as
Vyner and having a role like Claude's. I've never heard
of anything like it, and yet hearing her explain it,
it just feels so obvious that you need something, especially
in sort of a post pandemic world where folks are
experiencing new things and new ways of working every day
(38:13):
and things are changing constantly, and to have someone looking
out for you in a company like that is really impressive.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
It's not an easy job at all, you know. I mean,
she said she didn't want to do hr. She wanted
I think a harder job, like she said not to
be disrespectful to people in human resources. It's an incredibly
important job. And she would even call it something like
people and experiences, but that she is taking on so
much heaviness every day. She may not characterize it as that,
(38:41):
but I think for the average person, she has a
skill at empathy and having empathy. It's her superpower, is
a reason she's in that role, and she's spearheaded that role,
but man I can help, but think these are big,
heavy days sometimes for her.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And I appreciate that a company like that has someone
in that role who can carry that burden. I think
that you have to have an extraordinary amount of like
she's a super power level of emotional intelligence, and to
be able to share that with the employees in not
only just share it and carry that burden, but model
that behavior, I think is going to rub off on
(39:16):
all the leaders and leaders to be at a place
like Vayner.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
She had a really cool definition of empathy, which I
felt was like breaking news a little bit right, because
she believes it's not just simply stepping into someone else's shoes,
as though anyone could really.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
It's being a passenger on their journey, which I thought
was an extraordinary way to put it. I think that
a lot of times folks confuse empathy for literally feeling
someone else's feelings, and in this case, it's about awareness,
and it's about being cognizant of what people are going
through around you and being able to make changes or
(39:53):
at least help guide them through those feelings. In a
complex place like a corporate environment, I mean to be
able to have these kind of a emotional conversations and
speak on emotional intelligence, and I really appreciated the way
she connected it to the idea of Honey versus Empire
in terms of how they think about Vayner and the
fact that they can balance these lofty, emotional intelligent conversations
(40:15):
with still having to make money.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, you can hold those two things together as you
are running a company. I think this theme around kindness
and empathy as someone who is observing what's coming out
from the publishing world and the thought leadership world, there's
a growing momentum. This is not a new territory foreclaud
but I'm hopeful that her philosophies are going to sort
(40:38):
of catch a tailwind in this moment. There's definitely a
lot of interest, and she coming at it from the
perspective of someone, as she described, who walks the walk,
who's living it. In addition, there are academics, there are
psychologists and scientists who can add to this and give
credibility to this. But I'm hopeful that it's just going
(40:59):
to be I'm a.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Bigger trend, and I think walking the Walk is so
important because she talked a lot about culture and the
fact that culture is created through consistency, and so it's
not like other companies can just hire a chief Heart
officer tomorrow and implement these kinds of things. It's a
culture that was created through consistency and was allowed to
grow and flourish with someone in leadership a position like Claude.
(41:23):
And I think that it's about the earnest cultivation of
this conversation about how we treat our employees and how
we treat our team members and how we think about
the people around us, and can grow that in a
company so it becomes part of their core.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I also think it's important her background. It wasn't like
she always knew right that this was going to be
her role. And she was very candid and said I
didn't know what was going to happen chief Heart officer aside,
like I didn't even know what was going to be
there for me or what I was aspiring to. And
I kind of love that she was open about that.
It's a lesson for the those of us who feel
(42:01):
a little like we're still trying to figure things out,
we're getting afraid, we're getting nervous, we're getting impatient with
ourselves that things take time to unfold. You need that
time for reflection. But she didn't waste time either, right,
She really invested in her learning. She invested in her experiences,
travel education. I think that was really important that I
(42:21):
don't think was just of her time. You know, we
didn't just do that twenty years ago to figure things out.
I think that it's still very much applicable today, that
there is value in slowing your role a little bit
and investing in yourself and in your community to get
to where you want to be. Absolutely, it's not a race.
It's not a rat race, and if you do think
(42:42):
that way, it's just a race to the bottom, often.
Speaker 4 (42:45):
Completely and I think that shows in the success of
her work as the chief Heart Officer over there.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Yeah, audience in fact check us. Are there any other
Chief Heart officers in companies, at least in the US.
I don't know. Maybe they're called something different.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Send them in we'll find out.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Let us know. Thanks Ryan, that's fun.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
This is a great time.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Well listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
follow and subscribes you don't miss out on any new
episodes and As always, we want to hear your thoughts
to make this the best show possible, so please leave
us a review. In the meantime, you can find me
at Farnoosh Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the
So Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast
(43:27):
is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer
is Matt Stillo and our supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton.
This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
Rube.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
When I think about empathy, which is such an overused
word today, to me, it's not putting on your shoes.
It's not stepping into your shoes. I could never do that.
I think about empathy as being a passenger with you
on your journey, if you let me, putting my hand
on your shoulder and being like I got you, I
got you, Like, let's do this. There's no friction we
cannot solve. But it takes the right culture. It takes
(00:28):
a willingness to be transparent and to have communication. I
firmly believe.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That that's Claude Silver offering up a new way to
think about empathy, not as stepping into someone else's shoes,
but as writing shotgun on their journey. And as you'll hear,
that's not just a personal philosophy, it's her job. Claude
is the Chief Heart Officer at Vaynermedia. Yeah, Heart officer.
(00:53):
It's a real c suite role at one of the
most talked about media companies in the world, and Claude's
mission is to scale emotional intelligence inside the workplace. In
this conversation, she breaks down what that actually means and
how empathy, when done right isn't soft, it's strategic. Claude
and I go way back, but this was the first
(01:13):
time I had the chance to really dig into her
leadership style, how it was shaped by her childhood, her
nana who literally called her heart, her experience in therapy,
and her early years navigating corporate culture as a sensitive,
intuitive person. We also get into hybrid work, difficult conversations, parenting, burnout,
and why kindness at work is having a long overdue moment.
(01:36):
I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
executives making an impact. Claude Silver, Welcome. It's so nice
to see you, and we're in person. Let's just announce
that because that's a special treat.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It's awesome. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me.
I've known you for many years.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I don't know if I've ever had this opportunity to
really understand your leadership style. Where sourced and so let's
go to childhood. As we're both moms, we know our kids.
When we look back on their childhoods, it won't be
a coincidence. Maybe who they become or their talents. But
as a child, you were repeatedly told Claude that you
(02:14):
think too much with the heart, and now you're the
chief heart officer at Vayner Media. Was there a moment
in your life or your career where you realize that
leading with heart was actually your greatest strength?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, there absolutely was, And it took me a long
time to get there because I actually felt like something
was wrong with me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Oh yeah, I thought when my parents would love in
their hearts, would say to me, Claude, you think too
much with your heart. You have to learn how to
think with your head. And sometimes they would compare me
to my brother Caleb, who is much more analytical than
I am. But I thought, oh gosh, I must have
a missing chip, like what's going on? What's happening? And
so it took a lot of years, a lot of therapy,
a lot of different things to finally understand, Oh, being
(02:57):
an EmPATH actually is my superpower? Why don't I lean
in to it? And it really was my Nana, who
we called each other heart. That's like the crazy thing.
Oh she called me heart and I called her heart.
She basically was the kindest, most generous person I had
ever known in my life, and I really credit her
for emotionally raising me in many ways for kind of
(03:17):
shining the light on Hey, it's okay, it's good, like,
this is who you are. Don't hide it, don't try
to change it, because you can't. I really can't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
You studied it too before this became kind of your
professional identity. You have a background in human psychology. How
did that inform your brand so to speak? Today?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, so I do have a background in human behavior,
human psychology, spirituality, and what that showed me, What that
gave me was that, Wow, we're all so similar and
we have different lived experiences, but we all go through
very similar emotions. It just happens to be we're triggered
by different things because of our background. So what that
(03:56):
gave me was pattern recognition. Being dyslexic, I had to
learn really early on how to find my way in
the world and how to navigate my way, and I
think patterns was how I got there. When people are
in pain, when people are expressing joy, when people are
expressing surprise or astonishment, this is how people usually behave.
(04:19):
And so for me, patterns became a shortcut in a
way that I could figure things out quicker. And that
was important to me because I really did feel slow
slower than the average bear, which was never a great feeling.
I think leaning into emotional intelligence, which I didn't even
know the name for it, I think I really put
(04:39):
myself through an incredible education called life. I didn't graduate
college until I was twenty eight, so I did a
lot of this extracurricular studying on my own because I
was passionate about it, not because someone told me I
had to in order to get a degree, which is
a big difference.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Were you concerned about finding your way through corporate as
an empact?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was concerned that I wouldn't find my way period
anywhere for a long time until it seemed like the
skill sets I have seemed to match what this job needs,
and what those first early jobs were were client relations.
So okay, you know, I like people, and I'm curious
about people, and I'm a good question asker, and I
(05:24):
think that opened the door to furthering my career, and
I've always done agency work. I landed in advertising agencies.
It was right after the dot com boom, the first one.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
What was that like? I wanted to ask you about
that your early days in advertising being in like the
right place at the right time, that, of course in
part shaped your digital career.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
One thousand percent. Living in San Francisco. I moved there
in nineteen ninety five, so I was there for some
of the greatest moments, saddest moments, AIDS crisis also, but
also technology. All of a sudden, it was like, Oh,
what is modem? Oh what does that sound?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
What is Yahoo? You know this is all before Google
or Facebook, but really, what is Yahoo?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Still?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
We're asking that question? Does Yahooh?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And it was the wild, wild wild West. And I
didn't feel like I had to be a certain way,
as I think probably the younger generations, generations that came
after me, probably felt like they had to fit more
of a mold. I didn't feel like I needed to
wear pumps. I didn't feel like I needed to wear
(06:32):
some kind of business suit. These were great days of
curiosity and wonder and let's try this and overspend here
and overspend here. So it was a big joy ride
and an adventure. But we knew we were trying to
do things. And all of the companies that I worked with,
even before I got into advertising, were all community based,
(06:53):
and that's where we are today. Every platform is community based.
I believe somewhere we're trying to bring people together and
to bring people closer, even though you know, we could
have another conversation on does that work or does it
not work.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
You also spend time abroad, yes I did. What did
international life teach you about patterns or human psychology? What
did you take from those experiences?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The first thing I took is that as an American,
we think the world revolves around US and America, and
it just doesn't. One of the first things I recognized
was watching the news over there and seeing things about
places that I had never heard about, and in America,
our news is very centered in what's happening here. So
it showed me a that the world is much bigger.
(07:39):
Being in London is very different than when I would
travel other places. I mean London, they're very polite and
they don't like confrontation, so everything comes with a sorry first,
and you're like, but what are you really trying to
say to me? Where are we going here? And again
it showed me that we are all so similar. It
just depends on how we came up in the world
(08:00):
and what we were taught or what we wanted to
run away from, or you know, just that everyone went
through adolescence. And I'm speaking more for the Western world.
We all went through a very similar adolescence. I don't
know what some of the other people in third world
countries and people that are more impoverished and less privileged
than I am have gone through in those stages, but
what I can say is there's such a similarity, and
(08:22):
so when we start to fight with one another, it
hurts because it's like, hey, wait a second, we have
no idea how that person just started their day. We
have no idea what happened to that person from the
hours of six to nine before they opened their laptop
and got online. We have no idea that their dog
was sick, their child was in the hospital, they got
engaged last night, all kinds of things. But that happens
(08:43):
all over the world. And so that's one of the
things that taught me is that you know, not to
quote depeche Mode, but I will oh any time. Okay,
I mean, well, are people? People?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Are people? Are people?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Oh? What kiss it?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
But I'm also learning about Uclaude is that in addition
to your knack for identifying patterns, you're also quite the translator.
You have a code that's like built in you, like
you know the code. You meet people from all walks
of life, and you're able to understand them in a
way that maybe they are not even aware that that's
how they're presenting themselves, but you're seeing them at the
(09:20):
end of the day. I think really important, especially in
the context of work.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I don't know if it's a code, but I take
that as an incredible compliment, so thank you. But I
do see them. I do know that there's something going
on behind someone's eyes, and that could be a surprise
to them or surprise to me. But I like going
with them on the journey. So for me, when I
think about empathy, which is such an overused word today,
to me, it's not putting on your shoes. It's not
(09:45):
stepping into your shoes. I could never do that. I
think about empathy as being a passenger with you on
your journey, if you let me just writing shotgun with you,
putting my hand on your shoulder and being like I
got you, I got you, Like let's do this. There's nothing,
especially the workplace, that we cannot solve unless it's something
to do with a person's health. There's no friction we
(10:06):
cannot solve I firmly believe that. But it takes the
right culture. It takes a willingness to be transparent and
to have communication and to learn. Like people for the
most part have good intentions, right, It's not one hundred
percent all the time, But I don't think we go
into work to go and try to collaborate people. Yes
it's political, and yes there's games and all that junk
(10:28):
that we've lived through. I think they get triggered. I
get triggered just like the next person. So my code
is really figuring out what's going on, what's preventing you
from shining? Why do you have that imposter syndrome? What's
holding you back? Were you told that you needed to
be perfect? Is that why you go and you look
at that person's PowerPoint presentation and you find errors first
(10:50):
before you read the entire story. Just tell me why.
Let's walk through that and then let's reframe that and
think of something different. Like, I wonder what would happen
if you look at that PowerPoint presentation from start to
finish and read it before criticizing it fair?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Would that be?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Like?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I think we can all take that advance. It's human nature.
We look for what's working what's not working? First?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Exactly? You almost said, we look for what's working first
and let's get there one day. Please.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I want to transition to vayner Media. You joined
in twenty fourteen and then you resigned three months later,
you returned as the chief heart officer. I want to
know what happened during those three months, What were you doing,
what were you reflecting on? Why did you leave?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So I was hired by Gary Vaynerchuk, my boss, who's
just a phenomenal guy, phenomenal entrepreneur. I was the first
SVP that he hired, and I was probably the third
oldest person in vayner and I ran Unilever, which was
our largest book of business every time. And about a
year into it, I started to get that feeling that
I had earlier when I was living in London, which
(11:53):
was it's not that important to me if it's red
or brown or blue, or if the copy is incursive
or the grammar is right. That doesn't light me up
at all. And these conversations don't excite me. But what
excites me is the people that are bringing it to fruition,
bringing creative ideas to life. That's what excites me. So
I went to Gary and I said, hey, I love
(12:15):
it here. You're the best. This is the greatest place ever.
But I no longer want to work in advertising. And
then he said, what do you want to do? And
I said, I only care about the people here. I
care about the heart beat. Really heartbeat, is what I said.
And he said, one day we're going to write a
book on heart but I need you to stay for
eighteen more months, and I remember saying, I'll give you six.
He doesn't remember that part of the story. But I
(12:37):
found my backfill and I resign. And during those three months,
I worked out, I walked the dog, I went snowboarding,
I visited my friends. I just freed myself from, quite frankly,
the bondage of a phone and my emails and text messages.
And I just kind of like, I dreamed, what do
(12:58):
I want to do? I know, I don't want to
go back to doing what is going to be very
shiny for me. Any job offer that comes my way
would be very shiny at that point, What do I
want to do? And I thought, okay, well, I'll start
a coaching practice. That seems like something I really enjoy doing.
I want to work with people, and so he called
me back. We had breakfast, we sat down, he said,
that's it, you're coming back. You're going to be chief
(13:18):
Heeart officer. And I knew exactly what that meant, maybe
because he and I speak a very similar code, but
it just made sense to me. We didn't have HR.
I have never been in HR. Now I can tell
you that I am and I've done that.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I have a.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
New appreciation for people in HR. I don't call it that,
I call it people and experience. But when I was
there for those first sixteen months, being one of the
oldest and the OG, I was doing a lot of hiring,
I was doing a lot of terminations. I was that
person that people would come to. I was tenured in
all of those things that you really need in a
fast paced, growing company when you have a lot of
(13:52):
youth there. And so I immediately said to him what are
we doing? And he said, we're building the single greatest
human organization in the history of time. And I said,
sign me up. That's aspirational. And I said, cool, how
do we know if I'm successful? And he said, you
will touch every single human being and deploy empathy throughout
the halls, okay, And then I said I don't want
(14:14):
to do HR and he said, great, You'll hire a
team around you and ret one of Gary's strength, which
is something that he's really taught me, which is you
put people in position to succeed, You set them up
for success, and you dive in on your strengths. And
if I go back to Nana seeing emotional intelligence as
a superpower, and I go, that's what Gary recognized, and
(14:34):
he was like, I need this person to be me
in those rooms that I can't be in. I need
this person to go and figure out all that michig
go as over there, or what the chaos is or
the cynicism over there, and scale that out. And so
I've been with Gary. It'll be eleven years in May,
and I've been chief our officer for nine years almost
to the day. And so that's what I do every
(14:55):
single day. Figure that out on a bigger playing field
now that we've grown so much.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Walk me through a typical day. I would love to
understand how your work and your insights manifest in somebody
else's success.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I love that because at the end of the day,
it is really about ROI, right or it's roe return
on energy. Someone told me that the other day.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I like that. I'll take that. It's actually one of
the architects of Google's project, Aristotle, who said ROE, and
I was like, yes, I will steal anything you give me.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Put that in my pocket.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
A typical day will be having one on one so
people have set up time with me because they heard
I might be a good person to help them connect
with other people, or they want to know about my journey,
or they had a funny meeting with a manager, or
not quite sure if they're up for a raise or
so whatever. People will just come and talk, so we'll
travel through those conversations. It's fifteen minute conversation. I got
(15:48):
pretty quick at figuring out how to get to where
I need to get to and to leave them feeling
better than they did. They felt great, then I'm going
to make them feel even greater. If I can or
at least acknowledge that they are awesome, then I'm going
to have strategy meetings with either people that are across
the globe and our other offices figuring out One of
the things I'm helping people do is where is their smoke?
(16:10):
Where are people unhappy? Where are people happy? Where are
their roses? Where are their thorns? What are we going
to do about that? How are we going to continue
recognizing our people? And where there is cynicism or yuckiness,
what are we going to do it? Like, we have
to get to the root of that, because if we
want to retain rockstar people, then that's our job. And
I work with senior leadership, and I work with all
(16:31):
of our pod leads so SVPs EVPs to figure out
how their people are doing and how are they leading.
So I spend also a lot of time doing leadership training,
like senior leadership high performance training. How do you know
how people feel when you enter a room? How do
you know that if you enter a room with your
(16:51):
head and your phone, you have no clue And actually
that's the energy you just brought into the room. So
the energy is you don't really care, you don't have time,
or you're distracted. So let's reverse that. Let's walk into
a room saying, hey, everyone, how are you doing? How's
your weekend? Those types of things. I talk about new
offices we're opening. I talk about how we can expand
(17:11):
our culture what we call honey empire into those other
offices and places where I don't speak the language. Are
we making sure that in Mexico City we're doing the
trainings in their native language. I do a lot of
financial meetings also, which is crazy because I'm not a
financier at all, but trying to figure out how we
can become more profitable. Where do we have bulk, what
(17:33):
are we doing there? Talent planning, where are high performers?
Where we plotting people? And this is all happening throughout
the day. There's not a wasted meeting, That's what I'll say.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Well, on that, I wanted to go back to those
one on ones that you have. How do you hold
in balance being there for them, having that empathy, but
also being efficient because I think, especially for someone who
may not be familiar with how the meetings get run,
it's a sort of a dump, so to speak, of
all their emotions. Or they are looking for you just
(18:04):
supposide it as a therapist, So how do you sort
of walk the line and be both empathetic and efficient.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I would say they're probably looking for me more to
be a coach, because I put that into the water
that we're not therapists and I'm not a therapist, so
I can't help you there. So I would say we're
coaches and guides for sure, and that is something that
we feed the system constantly. I had a resident that
came and spoke to me yesterday and she asked me
the exact same question. She said, I'm an EmPATH. I
(18:31):
don't know how to be an EmPATH and not take
on people's feelings. And I don't know how to be
an EmPATH and be very successful at my job. And
so one of the things I shared with her and
you brought up the word, which is called efficient, is
You're not going to change your stripes. It's who you are.
Be proud of that. What you need to do is
learn how to create space for another person to have
their stuff, but constantly be pushing self awareness and self
(18:55):
regulation to them, Like, Okay, if this person is sitting
there with Bob or Sally, Oh, Sally, it's really amazing.
You're so self aware. That's really awesome. How do you
handle it when you have a bad day? Oh, I
go into the bathroom and have a cry. Okay, how
else do you handle it when you have a bad day?
I go for a walk? How would you handle it.
If your coworker came to you and had a bad day,
I would say, let's go for a walk. Or if
(19:15):
they say, I don't know, I don't know what I
would do. If I saw someone having a bad day,
That's when I say, actually, you're just as responsible for
this culture as I am. And so what you would
do is say, hey, I notice that you're having a
bad day. You want to go talk? Is there someone
I can connect you with? Those are like just the
little bits that I'm trying to infuse in the system,
which I call emotional efficiency. Quite frankly, this is something
(19:38):
I talk quite a bit about and I have a
book coming out and I really talk about it, emotional optimism,
emotional bravery, and emotional efficiency. And this is a flywheel
that's happening constantly. Emotional optimism is the fact that we
all have bad days, we all go through emotions, We
go through highs, we go through lows. You know, our
dog got sick this morning and then I had to
get on a screen and deal with something that was crying.
Whatever it is, right, So okay, what can I do
(20:00):
with that? I can have faith and hope that it's
going to turn around. Tomorrow. I can have faith and
hope that I can call my best friend, I can
call my brother, I can call someone at work and
they can talk me out of this slump. But I
have to believe in that. That's the optimism. The next
step is emotional bravery. What do I do? What actions
do I take? Knowing that I'm supported, knowing that I'm good?
How can I be braver in this situation? Oh gosh,
(20:23):
I have to have a hard conversation with my boss.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
All right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's up to me to bring my self awareness and
my ability to regulate my own emotions and bring that
conversation to my boss and be brave and it's okay
if my emotions come out, I'm not spilling anywhere. The
more I do that, and the more you do that
within teams, you create efficiency. Efficiency is a shorthand. So
back to this ROI, which is the question, it's how
(20:48):
can we help one another within the workplace of understanding
that emotions are allowed. We are not in a time
and place where we are going to go armor up anymore.
That's not going to work, certainly not going to work
for this generation or Generation Alpha that's going to come
up soon that's the first thing. So how can we
be in a workplace and be feelers and have our
(21:08):
own feelings and still keep our eye on the prize.
We need the entire organization to be rowing in the
same direction, and that means we need to spend a
lot of time with one another having these conversations of like, hey,
your emotions are totally fine. I need you to keep
that in check, though, because when you have an outburst
like that, you've just destroyed the productivity for the rest
(21:31):
of the day for that team. Like, if you're going
to have an outburst, that's cool, go out to the bathroom.
I'll meet you there in five minutes, or I'll have
your you know what I mean? Like, yes, So much
of what I talk about is common sense, and I
recognize it's not common for everyone, But I don't think
it's difficult to be kind and to be effective. I
do think there's a marriage there and those things can
happen if you have the right support around you and
(21:53):
your culture says it's okay, And I don't mean it's
okay because they have banners on the walls. Are like
sore fly, Hi, you can do it. Aspire for greatness
you need to have your values in the water stream.
People need to act on them, and then they become habits.
And this is something that Gary talks about and he
(22:15):
uses the word osmosis, which is something that is very
difficult to teach. You have to experience over and over
over and over. And so what did we start talking
about in the beginning patterns. It's the same exact thing, consistency.
And so when someone consistently behaves a certain way, I
can trust that they're always going to behave that way.
(22:36):
When a person is inconsistent or wobbles, or one day
they're like this, everyone's going to have a little bit
of distrust around that person. What our job is as
leaders is to be able to point that out in
a kind, compassionate but very candorous way to that person
and helping and facilitating other people to do their best
on dealing with it. I didn't say exterminate it, deal
(22:58):
with it. So I shouldn't or the people an experienced
team shouldn't be the people dealing with all of this.
Your managers need to be dealing with some of the
angst or some of the turmoil, or some of the
whatever on your teams.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
When we come back. Claude gets into what it really
looks like to lead with heart in the hard moments
like layoffs, hybrid work tensions, and the emotional weight that
caregivers bring to the office every day. She also shares
why she finally wrote her new book, Be Yourself at Work,
and what she sees on the horizon for the future
of leadership.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The eye has to be on the prize, and the
prize is yes, having a healthy culture and having people
that want to work and that make friends that I'm
devoted to in a place that's kind in this camaraderie,
but I'm also devoted to being successful. I want everyone
to be able to get the raise that they're looking
for and to get the promotion. But that only happens
when the organism is working together. It takes a village.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Stay with us. So when you experience resistance or skepticism
from culture about your ideologies around empathy in the workplace,
what are the most common things that you hear.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So we're a workplace, and we're a business, and we
have to make money, and so sometimes we are going
to be more empire than honey. So our culture is
called honey empire. I'd like to say we're fifty one
percent honey, forty nine percent empire. Some days we're going
to be fifty one percent empire. And so what I
hear about our culture at times is we're just so
(24:40):
focused on the bottom line. We're so focused on sales.
We're so focused on being the best or being the first, Like,
where's the softness, where's the empathy in that clot And
that's a tough one, because yes, I can spend time
with you and show you how we got to that
place or why it's so necessary. Because of the financial
environment that we're all in right now, or certainly the
financial environment that advertising agencies are in today, we have
(25:03):
to be serious about our work, and we have to
be serious about being exceptional with our clients and delivering
on what we said we would deliver on time. Yeah,
and if that goes against your idea of empathy, well
then we can have that talk once you're finished. The
eye has to be on the prize, and the prize is, yes,
having a healthy culture and having people that want to
work and that make friends that I'm devoted to in
(25:26):
a place that's kind and there's camaraderie, but I'm also
devoted to being successful. I want everyone to be able
to get the raise that they're looking for and to
get the promotion. But that only happens when the organism
is working together. It takes a village. And so we
have orientation every other week and I meet every single
new joiner and that can be a C suite employee
(25:46):
sitting with an art director, it doesn't matter. It's all
on zoom. But I love that because it flattens the
organization right then and there. But the first thing I'll
say to them is culture is everyone's responsibility, and wonderful
this screen. You are all now just as responsible for
the culture as I am. And that's a great thing
because you were chosen for a reason. We chose you.
You have the right skill sets and you are going
(26:08):
to bring such wonderful additions to this culture.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I want to talk a little bit about difficult conversations
that you have with your employees around issues of like
coming into a meeting and not looking like you're fully there,
but also harder ones like your positions being eliminated. How
do you do it?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I'm going to put a heading on top of
this topic, which is called accountability. And I believe that
for a culture to be healthy and thriving, there needs
to be accountability and people need to know what they
are accountable and responsible for. That is our job as
the leaders of this company to make sure people know
that and to make sure leadership knows that. That's the
(26:46):
first thing I want to say when it comes time
for that person to be exited. My hope and my prayer,
and I'm like a hawk with this, is that we
have documented and had those conversations along the way. That
is a must. And I'm not talking about waiting for
quarterly reviews. I'm talking about frequent feedback. As a manager,
(27:07):
as a leader, that is your job to make sure
John knows where he is anytime he asks you, right,
what does he need to do? What is he not doing?
Where is he excelling all of those things. By the
time that conversation of an exit comes my way or
comes to the team's way, what I'm expecting is that
it is not going to come as a big surprise.
(27:30):
And that is something we need to get a lot
better at, which is called clarity and communication and making
sure we are holding ourselves accountable as we're holding him accountable.
It has to be a two Way Street. So in
those conversations, I will often sit down and say, I'm sorry,
this is going to be a really challenging conversation. And
based on the conversations, or based on the last reviews,
(27:52):
or based on your behavior last week, or based on
what we've talked about several times now, it's been documented
on how you gossip constantly about a person's appearance or
whatever it is fill in the blank. Today is going
to be your last day. I'm really sorry that we
weren't able to work this out together. Something like that.
What I will say, and this is not to make
(28:15):
it like, oh yeah, I got this down.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
These are hard conversations someone's livelihood. We have an exceptional
alumni program that we created three years ago. So let
me just explain that really quickly. A lot of people
come to Gary, a lot of companies, a lot of cmos,
Hey do you have a social media marketer for my
ex company or my Y company? And we put all
of those jobs into our own database, and we reach
(28:40):
out to people that have either left Vanner Media or
we know we will be exiting. We promise that within
three days, this gentleman, Justin Novello will reach out to you.
He's going to help you with your resume and your
LinkedIn profile, and we will connect you. We can't guarantee
a conversation or a job. Are many times that Gary
(29:01):
will say, I will talk to whomever I know at
that company and I will at least get you a conversation.
So we promise that to every single person, and we've
been really successful. We also have a lot of boomerangs
that come back three years later, five years later, seven
years later. So that's all to say. These conversations are
painful for everyone, and my hope is that we continue
(29:24):
to get better at our communication and get clearer and
more specific so that it is not a surprise when
that person comes in, because that's the worst thing.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, that's quite generous, I think, and I think speaks
for itself when people come back. I think that speaks volumes.
One more question about the workplace, and then I want
to get into your advice for those who want to
maybe take on some of your leadership or like you
have changed your career multiple times, they want to do that,
But I have to ask you about hybrid work. You
(29:56):
have said no one will stand for five days a
week in office Why is it so important to have
flexible work as it speaks to your values as chief
heard officer.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
My values as a chief Heart officer are based around
being human. Yeah, they're really based around common sense things
as we've talked about. It's just it's the basics, and
I really believe our workplaces need to meet us there.
We need time for our own personal health, for our family,
for our friends, for just doing a day to day appointments.
(30:28):
That we just need time to live as free people
as freely as we possibly can, with the commitment that
we will be accountable to our job. I don't think
we need to big brother people. I believe that big
brothering people is the antithesis of what I'm about. It
feels like there's a scarcity in the world, a fear.
You know, why can't we trust people to do the
(30:50):
work that we hire them to do. I understand that
there are times in which we need people in the
office one thousand percent and we want people to look
over someone's shoulder and say, oh, yeah, no, I would
put a little more rust color in there or whatever
it is. But I want people to feel like they
can live their lives and not have to balance this
work life balance that we put in place a century
(31:14):
ago during the factory age when it was eight hours,
eight hours, eight hours.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Has your leadership adjusted in a hybrid model world at
all in terms of, let's say, after someone who's working
remotely from home, what is that person's future in terms
of leading a team? Actually, at right there is the
million dollar question. As a leader, you have an enormous
responsibility to grow and nurture people. So three day in office,
(31:41):
I think is great. If we can do that, I
think we would accomplish a ton, a ton of closeness
and camaraderie and collaboration and curiosity together and then also
being able to go to the dentist at ten o'clock
in the morning. So I really do think hybrid is
the way to go. I believe in flexibility, I believe
and freedom. I believe in giving people the opportunity to
(32:02):
show us what they can do, and if they can't, well,
then we have to have those harder conversations.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
We need you in the office this amount of time.
I will say that what has changed for me the
most is being a mom, you know, and really understanding
what that takes to be a parent or a caregiver.
The emotional package that you wear that I wear as
a parent every day is it's invisible, but it's there.
Oh yeah, And that's one of the things that I'm
(32:29):
really big on right now. We just kicked off a
brand new parents Caregivers group rate a banner to really
have these hard conversations. Not about benefits, That's not what
I'm talking about, but just having the courageous conversations of like, yeah,
my kid has special needs, or my kid has to
have an operation, or I need to be there to
have dinner with my children.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
All right, let's pick your brain and get some advice
for our listeners on reinvention. Career reinvention, you're not shy
to this. What advice would you give to mid career professionals,
especially who feel stagnant in their careers. They want to
do a pivot, but they're afraid.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So what I would say is work with a coach.
Don't do this alone. I would really say, find someone
that you can talk to about what it is your
passionate about, what your values are, what are you great at?
What do you just great at? And you hate doing
because you don't want to get into that box and
dream big, Like, if you feel like you really want
to open up your own flower boutique, then you have
to put that out there and understand it's not going
(33:32):
to happen tomorrow. There are steps that you need to take.
I used to think that you could get from point
A to Z overnight, but I realized you have to
do some planning. So my best advice is to a
go for it and talk to someone about it. Find
someone that is a career coach or a life coach
that you trust that can really help you step by step,
(33:56):
figure out what your dreams are and figure out what
those sprints are to get to the marathon.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, the finish line. The zone of genius work is fun.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
What are some of the trends you think are going
to shape the workplace in the next five years?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
AI, AI, AI, and AI all over the place. You know,
I work in a creative agency, that's all there. We
work in HRIS systems, it's already there. Anything that gives
us more efficiency, I think, and smart to some extent.
We know that there's all these different chat you know,
chatchipt or Claude, which is very just strange to say,
(34:33):
and they're getting more intelligent. The more we use them
and the more you prompt them, and I, for one,
love playing with them. It's like a hobby for me now,
just to see how far I can go. And quite frankly,
they make me smarter. They make me sound smarter.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Do you think it can threaten workforce at Vynermedia? Even
I don't think it.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Can threaten workforce at Vaynermedia. I think we are going
to use it to provide more efficiency and to be
better at our craft. That's what I think, being a
company that is rooted in people, and we're very proud
of that. I don't think that there's going to be
a time where we're going to eliminate twenty jobs because
Claude Chatchpt can do it better. But I think we
are going to use it much more frequently.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You mentioned your book that's coming out soon, Be Yourself
at Work. Tell us a little about the genesis of
this As an author, it's not a small feat when
you take this on, especially you have a big job,
you have a big personal life, and then you add
this to it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, it was a challenge that I set for myself
about ten years ago. I don't know why. It's literally
like some people said, I'm on a round a Maska
calling calling. I went through so much imposter syndrome, so
many days, so many weeks and months, that I put
it on hold. What do I have to say? That's
so new. Everyone's talking about vulnerability in the workplace, Everyone's
saying that stuff. What do I have to say? And
(35:48):
I realized I live it. It's very different. I'm not
a philosopher talking about it. I'm not an academic talking
about it. I'm actually doing it every day and watching
people be themselves at work and certainly promoting that. So
that's what it was about for me, which was literally like,
this is who I am, this is what I have
to offer. I'm not looking to win any Nobil Peace Prize.
(36:10):
I just wanted to see if I could do it.
And it took me five years to do it. It
was a labor of love, That's all I can say.
And thank god I had a supportive partner who could
help and take on the way to the kids and
all of those things.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
I wish more people knew about what it takes to
actually write a book. You know, I sacrifices the trade offs,
the imposter syndrome, the loneliness.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
It's like leadership in many ways. It can be very
lonely and just doing something that you know is a
calling to your point and you just have to do it.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, you just get her done, get or done.
The title of this podcast is leading by Example, So
we want to ask you, as we do all of
our wonderful guests, with your title as Chief Heart Officer.
This is a significant innovation in executive leadership. We think,
how does cho embody the idea of leading by example?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Walking the walk every single day, being accountable for how
I say I'm going to show up and show up
that way when I say earlier in this podcast, how
are you walking into a room? How are you showing
up every single day? If I show up looking at
my phone walking into that room, then I should not
be here.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Listen. If I've learned anything is I'm never walking into
a room with my phone in my face, especially if
you are garrier and thank you. Thank you for that reminder.
We all need it sometimes. Clode Silver, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Thank you partnersh All right, so here we are post
Claude Silver interview, and I have my producer here, Ryan,
who had been listening in the whole time helped us
actually produce this segment.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Wonderful questions you had given me for Claude. Thanks so much, Ryan.
What'd you think?
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I mean, it's impressive having a company as big as
Vyner and having a role like Claude's. I've never heard
of anything like it, and yet hearing her explain it,
it just feels so obvious that you need something, especially
in sort of a post pandemic world where folks are
experiencing new things and new ways of working every day
(38:13):
and things are changing constantly, and to have someone looking
out for you in a company like that is really impressive.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
It's not an easy job at all, you know. I mean,
she said she didn't want to do hr. She wanted
I think a harder job, like she said not to
be disrespectful to people in human resources. It's an incredibly
important job. And she would even call it something like
people and experiences, but that she is taking on so
much heaviness every day. She may not characterize it as that,
(38:41):
but I think for the average person, she has a
skill at empathy and having empathy. It's her superpower, is
a reason she's in that role, and she's spearheaded that role,
but man I can help, but think these are big,
heavy days sometimes for her.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And I appreciate that a company like that has someone
in that role who can carry that burden. I think
that you have to have an extraordinary amount of like
she's a super power level of emotional intelligence, and to
be able to share that with the employees in not
only just share it and carry that burden, but model
that behavior, I think is going to rub off on
(39:16):
all the leaders and leaders to be at a place
like Vayner.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
She had a really cool definition of empathy, which I
felt was like breaking news a little bit right, because
she believes it's not just simply stepping into someone else's shoes,
as though anyone could really.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
It's being a passenger on their journey, which I thought
was an extraordinary way to put it. I think that
a lot of times folks confuse empathy for literally feeling
someone else's feelings, and in this case, it's about awareness,
and it's about being cognizant of what people are going
through around you and being able to make changes or
(39:53):
at least help guide them through those feelings. In a
complex place like a corporate environment, I mean to be
able to have these kind of a emotional conversations and
speak on emotional intelligence, and I really appreciated the way
she connected it to the idea of Honey versus Empire
in terms of how they think about Vayner and the
fact that they can balance these lofty, emotional intelligent conversations
(40:15):
with still having to make money.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, you can hold those two things together as you
are running a company. I think this theme around kindness
and empathy as someone who is observing what's coming out
from the publishing world and the thought leadership world, there's
a growing momentum. This is not a new territory foreclaud
but I'm hopeful that her philosophies are going to sort
(40:38):
of catch a tailwind in this moment. There's definitely a
lot of interest, and she coming at it from the
perspective of someone, as she described, who walks the walk,
who's living it. In addition, there are academics, there are
psychologists and scientists who can add to this and give
credibility to this. But I'm hopeful that it's just going
(40:59):
to be I'm a.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Bigger trend, and I think walking the Walk is so
important because she talked a lot about culture and the
fact that culture is created through consistency, and so it's
not like other companies can just hire a chief Heart
officer tomorrow and implement these kinds of things. It's a
culture that was created through consistency and was allowed to
grow and flourish with someone in leadership a position like Claude.
(41:23):
And I think that it's about the earnest cultivation of
this conversation about how we treat our employees and how
we treat our team members and how we think about
the people around us, and can grow that in a
company so it becomes part of their core.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I also think it's important her background. It wasn't like
she always knew right that this was going to be
her role. And she was very candid and said I
didn't know what was going to happen chief Heart officer aside,
like I didn't even know what was going to be
there for me or what I was aspiring to. And
I kind of love that she was open about that.
It's a lesson for the those of us who feel
(42:01):
a little like we're still trying to figure things out,
we're getting afraid, we're getting nervous, we're getting impatient with
ourselves that things take time to unfold. You need that
time for reflection. But she didn't waste time either, right,
She really invested in her learning. She invested in her experiences,
travel education. I think that was really important that I
(42:21):
don't think was just of her time. You know, we
didn't just do that twenty years ago to figure things out.
I think that it's still very much applicable today, that
there is value in slowing your role a little bit
and investing in yourself and in your community to get
to where you want to be. Absolutely, it's not a race.
It's not a rat race, and if you do think
(42:42):
that way, it's just a race to the bottom, often.
Speaker 4 (42:45):
Completely and I think that shows in the success of
her work as the chief Heart Officer over there.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Yeah, audience in fact check us. Are there any other
Chief Heart officers in companies, at least in the US.
I don't know. Maybe they're called something different.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Send them in we'll find out.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Let us know. Thanks Ryan, that's fun.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
This is a great time.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Well listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
follow and subscribes you don't miss out on any new
episodes and As always, we want to hear your thoughts
to make this the best show possible, so please leave
us a review. In the meantime, you can find me
at Farnoosh Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the
So Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast
(43:27):
is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer
is Matt Stillo and our supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton.
This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
Host
Farnoosh Torabi
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