March 6, 2025 • 36 mins
In this timely and thought-provoking episode, we're joined by Shannon Schuyler, Chief Purpose & Inclusion Officer at PwC. Shannon brings her wealth of experience from three decades and over fifteen different roles within the global consulting firm. As organizations grapple with evolving federal policies around diversity initiatives, Shannon offers invaluable insights on creating lasting, authentic change in corporate culture. Drawing from her extensive career journey, Shannon delves deep into how companies can move beyond numbers to build inclusion programs that genuinely honor and support their employees' diverse experiences and backgrounds.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Really, the department can't solve for diversity, equity, inclusion that
actually happens on the ground with the people you interact
with every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client,
and we're trying to determine how do you bring that
more and not just say here's a couple of programs
(00:24):
that will solve for this, because.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Your programs aren't going to solve for it.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So how does the culture and the environment really become
more inclusive to do that on its.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Own As companies navigate the shifting landscape of federal diversity policies,
our conversation with PWC's Chief Purpose and Inclusion Officer, Shannon
Schuyler couldn't be more relevant. Although it was recorded before
President Trump's executive order ending federal diversity programs. Shannon brings
(00:52):
three decades of global corporate insight from her more than
fifteen roles at PwC. Her journey illustrates how invest in
talent shapes both individual careers and organizational culture. Shannon examines
how companies can build authentic diversity initiatives that prioritize people
over statistics and recognize the human experiences shaping their employees' lives.
(01:17):
I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
executives making an impact. Shannon Schuyler, Welcome to leading by example.
It's really nice to have you with us. It is
such pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So you are what my mother would say, a people person,
And I wonder how it all started for you. Were
you that child who was engaging and empathetic and love
to lead. Take me back to a story that perhaps
captures the Shannon Schalar that you have now become.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh that is so funny, because I am not a
people person. I am a true introvert. It's very challenging
for me to be in large groups of folks that
I don't know. But I think I grew up being
very intuitive of how people felt and being empathetic. And
I'm always the person. I think even as a child,
(02:13):
and you go back, it's the underdog. It's the kid
who's being picked on on the playground. It's the person
who is being judged by others or bullied. And I've
always been the person that has to run to their defense,
even if sometimes, especially as a child, it was not
necessarily welcome. I was like trying to help people who
just don't have a voice. And I think that's really
(02:33):
what has propelled me to doing the things that I
do now.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Is it really what you would say, what carried you through,
what you studied in school and how you pursued your career.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I grew up with a very matriarchri family and women
who were there helping other women and helping people, whether
it was in nonprofits, whether it was on the farm,
whether it was through local politics, but it was really
trying to uplift people and give people a voice or
hand or help or support who didn't otherwise have it.
And I think that has just become my mantra of
(03:06):
where I am now and what I do.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
The empathy piece is so important, and I think we
sometimes take it for granted. There is now a body
of research. Scientists are studying empathy and kindness as it
pertains to things like ROI and leadership. And I'm just
curious how you think you developed your empathy. We say
empathy can be contagious. Where do you find the sources
(03:29):
of your empathy? That's such a great question, and I
don't know if I've ever thought about it that way.
I think I come from a very sensitive family for
people who are okay with being vulnerable and having the
hard conversations.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I've been with PwC for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
One of our values when I started was put yourself
in someone else's shoes, and I think that that had
always helped to drive me to say, all right, that's
how I think. But how is somebody else perceiving that
their background, where they've come from, the values that they have.
Why would they look at that differently? And how do
I make sure that we're on the same wavelength when
(04:09):
we have the conversations.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Shannon, you wrote about these playing cards that you used
to keep in your wallet for queens specifically, and how
each card represented a woman you admired in your life.
Tell me about these women who were they had they
shape your journey? Well, it's interesting because I had never
planned on doing that. I had, over the course of
years subconsciously taking these cards out and had put them
(04:33):
in my wallet and started carrying them around. And suddenly
when I became the firm's chief purpose officer, I was like,
oh my goodness, someone's going to say, what's your purpose?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And I'm going to be like, I don't have one.
I'm in my forties. I don't know, I've kind of
gotten here. It's really been this is the firm's purpose,
And so I really took time to figure it out,
and I tried to do all the things that people do,
a little bit of retail therapy, a little bit of reading,
and I took a college course and my forties saying,
can I figure out what my purpose is? And randomly,
when I was changing verses one day and I was
(05:01):
changing my wallet to match my purse, I had these
plane cards fall out that are tattered and to the
state even more tattered.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And they are four queens.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And when a woman would pass away in my family
for some random reason, I would take a card and
I would put it in my wallet. And we had,
over the course of really a handful of years, my mother,
my aunt, my two grandmothers passed away who always sat
at the head of the table, and suddenly they were gone.
And I realized then that I was trying to live
(05:30):
for them, so that their voice and what they could
have accomplished. My mother was the first state and local
lobbyist of a bank in Cleveland. These were women who
had so much to give and they didn't get a
chance to give it, and that became why I'd made
the choices of my life, was to give them a voice,
to give other women a voice who can't and who
are not in the position to do so, whether they
(05:51):
are just not given the opportunity, or in my case,
whether they had passed away way too early.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
But my gosh, your mother was such a trailblazer. She
was even in her time, and a really good little golfer.
She was five four and mighty golf too. I know
exactly she was like she I know, and you know
she would be looking down saying.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Why are you playing golf?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Mike?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I know, all right. Shifting gears from golf to your
time at PwC, which is now spanning thirty years, Shannon,
that is just remarkable. I mean, it just feels rare
for anyone to stay longer than five years in one role.
So what's kept you interested in staying? Honestly? Did you
always see yourself at one company for your career? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
No, I mean I had thought of my career when
I graduated from college that I was going to go
into sports broadcasting. Unfortunately I was way too early for
now that women are allowed on the sideline. But back
then that's what I had wanted to do, and I
kind of ended up in petewc in this role. And
like many people, I think, you go in and you're like,
I'm here for three to five years and I'll jump
(06:56):
to something else. But being in an organization that allows
you to go through so many different paths. I've been
in a handful of different offices. I've had probably seventeen
different jobs.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I started in.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Recruiting and then went to human resources, then to marketing
and sales, and then corporate social responsibility, and then sustainability
and then purpose and so you could really reimagine as
I grew as a person. I was able to grow there,
and the people really allowed me to do that, to
create that type of platform, and so incredibly lucky. You
(07:29):
never thought I would do it. I am amazed by
the stats now that folks who are thirty five have
had seven or eight jobs by the time they're there,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to catch
up now in my later years. But that's what really
kept me here. It's the people and the opportunities. Seventeen roles.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Was there one that was what you would call like
good Hard, where it was really challenging, a real learning curve,
but ended up being sort of that one experience that
opened your eyes to the path that you're on now.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think each role has created its own challenges. I
happen to be somebody who really seeks out problems to solve,
which can be really complex but really exciting. I think
some of the things I've gotten the most out of
is the organization has allowed me to create the.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
First of jobs.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Like we never had a great place to work leader,
we never had a corporate responsibility leader, we never had
a foundation, we never had a purpose leader. And so
in some of those cases, just finding what I thought
could help the organization and help our people and help society,
wrote a couple of white papers and was lucky enough
to have the CEOs at the time asked me to
do it. And so I think that really all of
(08:39):
those were challenging when you're the first one to do it. Now,
sometimes I say, the first one to do it is
pretty easy because no one can tell you you're doing
it wrong. But it's also hard to kind of create
what that value is to make sure that it can
be sustainable.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I mean, I really in understanding your background, and now
that you've explained, having these first of roles and the
build to really launch important roles, it's an entrepreneurial spirit
that either you had or was cultivated throughout these thirty years.
Would you agree?
Speaker 4 (09:10):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I agree, And I think it's also that thirst for
learning and to want to continue to grow, like to
want to understand something that you don't know a lot about.
When we started our commitments around especially climate, I knew
nothing about that. That wasn't my background, but I was
so interested in learning and growing and saying what would
(09:32):
this mean for our organization, our people, our clients, the community.
And I think having that just lean in to know
more was really what got me to continue to do
a lot of different things and want to test out
whether or not this would work or not.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I want to go back to what you said about
people who are in their thirties and they've had on
average seven to eight different jobs. Why do you think
that is there is a rarity when it comes to
staying power in a role at a company. Why do
you think there's so much movement.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think there's so many different reasons for the movement.
I think one is people want flexibility, and I think
over the course of the years and now might be
a little bit different since COVID. You want flexibility in
your role and you're kind of searching for what that
could be and what it is. I think as you age,
you begin to want different things out of life, and
sometimes those organizations may or may not be able to
(10:26):
give that to you. I think sometimes you want to
try something different and you can't do it within your organization.
And I think it's good to try different things. I
think it's exciting to know your worth and to be
able to go someplace else, and so I definitely am
jealous that individuals do that and don't find anything wrong
with it, but rather it really I think today's individuals
(10:48):
want that experience and want different experiences and to be inspired,
and they just go to different places to get that done.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yeah, let's shift gears a little bit to talking about diversity,
equity and Inclusion DEI, which is central to your work
and your passion. It's no surprise that you know this.
The diversity equity and inclusion backlash has set in. We've
seen slash budgets, we've seen reduced D and I leadership.
Do you think that this movement is rooted in any truth.
(11:19):
And if you are running public relations for D and I,
what is the message you think that is lost on
some of the leadership right now and what is missing
and it's important to share. It's such a great question,
and it's interesting to sit back and to watch what's happening.
And I think, first of all, whether it is DEI,
whether it is ESG, I mean, pick it, we definitely
(11:40):
have backlash, and it's because people.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Think it means different things.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
DEI at the core of it, was always trying to
make sure that people had an opportunity to have equitable
experiences and to make sure that the human condition and
the variety of backgrounds that people have, that as they
come into organizations, they're allowed to be able to share
that and not have that be something that is a
negative or a takeaway. I think over the course of
(12:06):
the years we've changed that, and we've changed that into
meaning that numbers need to be certain numbers, and we
need to look at the individuals or organizations or race
or religion or what it is that's the worst off
and only focus on this. And I think we've become
smaller and smaller and smaller with how we look at diversity, equity,
(12:27):
and inclusion. I think the hardest part and the most
important part is the equity part. It's really saying we
want people to have an equitable opportunity to be successful
and to be able to move through an organization. It's
not about the number in the box. It's about creating
the culture that allows for people to be treated in
a way that reflects the importance of who they are
(12:48):
and the differences that they have. I think, unfortunately we're
seeing a pendulum swing. I think after the murder of
George Floyd, with great intent, people looked at where they
are within their organizations. Some it based on data, others
just doing it based upon concern and jumped in and
put goals out there. And I think it was trying
to do the right thing, but not really knowing how
people were going to get there and what was the
(13:10):
right way to do it and what they would look like.
And I think it was the same thing when people
made their net zero goals, saying we're going to be
net zero in ten years. Nobody knew how to do it,
but you put it out there. I hope that now
is a time to reflect to say were those right,
because if they are, then you can continue them. If
they weren't and they were an overreach, then you should
look back. I also hope that now companies realize that
(13:32):
they should be looking as we always should have, at
the socioeconomic implications that are out there. This is about
helping the individuals, helping the groups, helping the communities that
truly need the help, not because an individual box was checked.
We need to make sure that we're looking at broadly
who's disadvantaged, and how to make sure that we have
everyone come to the table. And I worry that the
(13:55):
pendulum swum so hard and again with really wonderful people
at tempting to make change and get to a tipping
point when they saw the opportunity to now saying now
we don't need it at all. And I hope that
we can get to that middle ground.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
In some cases there might need to be some reconciliation.
I'm hearing that you see it as sort of like
an over not overreach, but overcorrected. So for those leaders
who feel like we swung too far on the pendulum,
how would you recommend finding a center and reconciling What
are the questions they should be asking, as opposed to
(14:33):
jumping to the conclusion of we need to slash budgets
and eliminate our entire initiative around DEI.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Well, I think it's really important to say what are
we solving for Over the course of five years within
our industry, PwC was the first to actually release all
of our diversity data because you have to actually show
where you are. I mean, a lot of people are
making these goals and making the decision to do something
or not with no data to say what they should
be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. So I
think it's saying, let's step, let's look and say what
(15:01):
really is right or wrong to make sure that we're
making the right steps that are there. I also think
that it's really important that you look at what these
things mean both to your people as well as to
your clients or your customers and your other stakeholders. I
think when people were originally making a lot of their
goals several years ago.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
They didn't look at that. They looked at one issue.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
They looked at something horrible was happening, and how do
we respond to it? Instead of saying, who are all
the stakeholders that are in this and what will they think?
And how do we make sure that what we're putting
out there really helps to elevate everyone?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And we have a narrative for why.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
We're doing it, and I think it's really important that
we get.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
There finding the through line is what I'm hearing. And
in your role, you are working with people across a
spectrum of cultures of lived experiences. How do you connect
with your teams and your people? What are the tools
that you use, Shannon, are their tricks that you have
(16:03):
or you know, just a methodology that you implement.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Well, I think it's about putting all the pieces together.
So going forward, we're now uniting human resources and our
diversity efforts to really say, let's make sure that the
people experience overall is one that can uplift everyone understanding
that there's different things happening one way or another. I
think one of the huge things that we have at
(16:29):
the firm is we've grown to over forty percent of
our people are a part of inclusion networks that allows
individuals to really understand culturally and based upon their demographic
what's happening, but also allows for allies. We've had over
five thousand allies during those groups over the course the
last couple of years, because people want to know and
people want to understand, and so it's less about the programs.
(16:53):
I mean, you have to have things around the edges,
but more about every day, every day, how are people
getting opertunities, how are people working together? How are you
building in that engagement Because you can't just do this
within the department that you were talking about. The department
can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually happens on
(17:13):
the ground with the people you interact with every single day,
whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client, And we're trying
to determine how do you bring that more and not
just say here's a couple of programs that will solve
for this, because your programs aren't going to solve for it.
So how does the culture and the environment really become
more inclusive to do that on its own? What do
(17:35):
you think are some of the limitations? Or I should say,
how far should your employer go to address and meet
you where you're at on a personal level? Right if
you're dealing with whether it's financial struggles, you're dealing with
microaggressions at work and outside of work if you're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Mental health issues. Life is hard on so many skills.
You're a caregiver for your parents, for your children, and
we bring all of that to work. And what do
you see as kind of like the guidelines around that,
because your employer is not your therapist, but there still
needs to be a level of understanding and empathy.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's such a great question, and my feeling is arguably
you spend more time at work, depending upon your job,
than you do anywhere else. So the thought that you
should come to work and not deal with any of
those issues and just sit down and do your things
and leave is just not feasible.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Nowadays, during the workday, you could get a call from
somebody to your point, you could deal with mental health issues,
So that your employer has to have resources to be
able to give you outlets to deal with those types
of issues, and I think.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
That that's really important.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The lines have blurred so much in hybrid even has
had those lines blur even more so where you're doing
so much of your personal alongside your work and your
work alongside your personal. So I think organizations do you
have to have outlets to support issues around mental health.
I think they do have to have things that help
(19:06):
you around childcare and caregiving and emergency childcare backup. I
think your employers do have to have resources to help
you in financial planning and help you to repay your
college loans. You have to be able to deal with
that in order to function at the level that I
think a lot of companies certainly want you to be
able to function.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
That. Yeah, investing in your workforce means investing not just
in their professional wellbeing, but also their personal wellbeing, their
financial wellbeing. I so appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I think the one thing that companies are realizing though,
and I think again this is another one of those
pendulum swinging is that you don't have to answer every
single thing that every single employee has a challenge on.
And I think as we've seen in the last several years,
there's so many social issues, there's climate issues, there's all
these different issues that have become especially so politicized, and
(19:56):
for a while, I think companies thought, I'm going to
have to weigh in on everything, and that's too much.
That kind of waters down the ability to actually say
when there's something that matters Okay, now we're going to
talk about it because it's something as an organization we
can actually help to influence. And I think that's one
that is going to be really interesting for employees when
(20:17):
they had for a little bit their leaders commenting on everything,
and now I think you have a lot of leaders
that are saying, let's really decide what we're going to
what are the things we really are because we think
we actually can help to solve for them versus anything
happens we have to weigh in. Coming up after the break,
(20:37):
Shannon and I talk about the decision to take PWC's
DEI data, public executive accountability and the skills that will
equip leaders for the future. That's why you have to
get into that shared accountability space. That's really important because
that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
We'll be right back back.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
How would you describe your leadership style, Shannon, and how
has it changed or evolved throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I've always liked to be a problem solver.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
In an organization that's been around for over one hundred
and seventy years, there's a lot of things that we
can do the same, but just think of all the
things that we could learn from and really try to
do differently. And so really like to push the envelope
and to push the team to think outside of the box.
Certainly like to be very collaborative, like to hear views,
(21:39):
like to hear people try to throw something random at
the wall, But at the end of the day, really
like to make decisions relatively quickly and to move on.
I think it's really important, especially when you're in a
support function, that you realize the importance and the role
that you play, and you have to make sure to
hold yourself to the same scrutiny that you would if
(21:59):
you were in the client facing and you were selling
a product. If it doesn't work, you got to look
at it and you can decide I'm not doing it
anymore and you got to go to something else. I
think you have to do the same thing within areas
in support of if it doesn't work, let's move on,
Like you can't get wetted to something. And so it's
making sure that our functions stays as fast and as
focused on things that you can measure, and really looking
(22:22):
at ourselves in the mirror and if it works, great,
let's show the example. If it doesn't, let's pivot and
do something differently.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
What's a story that you can share of a really
difficult time, a decision that you had to make that
there wasn't a whole lot of buy in, but you
felt strongly.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Well, I think a lot of things were challenging. Even
when we made the decision to be able to release
our data from a diversity, equity and inclusion, we had
never done that and we decided in a relatively short
period of time that it was something that we felt
we wanted to do for us as an organization to
be able to move forward. Well, that wasn't incredibly popular
(22:58):
at the time. There's a lot that goes in to
being able to share that as well as our people
would suddenly see where we were and what that meant
and what that meant for them, And we had to
have a lot of conversations about it, and even within
the team who had done diversity for a very long time,
they didn't want to necessarily share where we were, not
to hide it, but not knowing how to make it better,
(23:21):
and this would be out there, and so it was
really having to get people on board with what it
could mean, how this could take us to the next place,
and then saying, once we make the decision, we're all
in together, and we all have to make sure that
we're going to say this was the right thing for
us collectively, and now what are we going to do
to take that to the next level.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
I've been in meetings where leadership will share data around
let's just say, diversity in hiring in the last quarter
or the last year, and it's not always bright, it's
not always upward trajectory, and that can be uncomfortable for leaders, right,
But that's what's called whole yourself accountable. And I want
(24:02):
to hear your thoughts on accountability and how leaders can
get more comfortable around this notion of being accountable.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Leaders are accountable for so many different things, from the
number of hours that they have or their teams have,
or the revenue that they generate, or the product penetration.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That they have.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And I think it becomes harder when you look at
it from people because you're dealing with behaviors, you're dealing
with decision making, you're dealing with family dynamics, you're dealing
with all of these different things that can feed into
why people are treated differently, why someone decides to come
to work for your organization or doesn't end up on
that recruiting area, why someone decides to stay, why they go,
(24:43):
And that becomes more challenging because suddenly I'm accountable for
something that I might not even have any influence over,
and then how does that work? And so I think
it's just a complexity. But I think once you have
the information and the data you can start to work
to get, you can start to say it's not on
one person. If someone's going to say or someone's going
(25:04):
to go with the firm, or someone's successful or someone's not,
or someone gets promoted or someone doesn't, or someone decides
to come into the organization or not, that's based on
a lot of different things and a lot of different
interactions that they have, which is why diversity is so hard,
because you got to fix each.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And every one of those.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You have to see what's going on with all of
those as well as the decision that that individual just
wants to make. And I think that's what people get
nervous when they hear about accountability. They're like, how can
I be accountable? When there's so many different factors, but
then at the end of the day, it's only going
to be me. And I think that's why you have
to get into that shared accountability space. That's really important
(25:43):
because that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So let's talk about change and the future and your
advice for those who are listening who want to grow
in a way that sets them apart for other organizations
in the inclusion space, and maybe you can use PwC
as an example as a leader in that.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I think organizations have to say where are we trying
to go with this?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
What does it mean for us?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And really be able to spell those things out, and
then also take a look at the whole organization and
of the whole experience that somebody has to say, what
and where does it happen where people are not treated inclusively?
Where does it happen where we're not equitable? And it's
not about fixing one thing but the entire journey. So
(26:35):
it's surgically going through what's happening in the recruiting process,
what's happening in the ratings process, what's happening in the
promotion process, what's happening in the getting on this client process.
And it's really having to have that very surgical set
of actions to be able to pull the levers to
look for change. And I think sometimes companies want to
(26:55):
make it easy, like we're going to get to this
number and we're going to have a program, and we're
going to send all women to that program, and somehow
that program is going to make women more successful. Well,
it doesn't happen like that. It is the individual things
that are said and the actions that take place. And
I think PwC has done that really well and saying
(27:17):
we're not just sending everyone someplace. This is about monitoring
every single day where every single person is in getting
their feedback in order to really understand what we need
to change.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, and in terms of even just the mindset shifts
or the mindset adoptions that leaders need. And I'm talking
now again to maybe the next generation of leaders, I'm
hearing from you that skills like collaboration, empathy, and ease
with accountability really important. What would you add to that list.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I mean, one of the things I learned early on
was listen more than you talk. So this isn't just
about you and what you want to accomplish, but really
have that desire to learn why people have the points
of view that they do, and to make sure that
you're asking the questions to make sure you understand what
you're hearing and not just walk away saying all right,
(28:12):
this is what I took away. Also making sure that
you can find trusted safe space. I think in everything
that we do, you're better when you get feedback on hey,
this hit the mark.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And this didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
And when you look at things like diversity, that's a
tough one because some of the times if you miss
the mark, that then you probably hurt somebody.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And so you have to.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Make sure that you're creating these trusted groups so that
you can get things wrong and whether that's wrong on diversity,
or you did something wrong creating a presentation, and you
have that trust that someone will actually tell you that.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Was an ideal.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The other thing that I think is incredibly important, and
I look at the individuals within our organization and myself
and it's really don't suffer those imaginary problems.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Just get do it when you get to it.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Don't worry about the eighteen different things that what happened right,
and to really stay present in the moment without having
that type of fear. I think that's really important as
individuals are looking at starting their career and where can
they get next.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
As we tie everything together here, Shannon, and a couple
of questions we like to ask our guests. One is
just what does leading by example mean to you?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I truly believe it's around treating people with respect and dignity.
It's making sure that you interact consistently and frequently with
people to understand what's motivating them and what are the
things that draws them to the things that you're doing.
Making sure that the individuals who don't typically have a
(29:47):
voice gets a voice. And so when you're sitting around
the table and the three people who always raise their
hand or always just blurt things out, make sure the
other three really have a chance to say the things
that are important to them, and really make sure that
people feel that they're heard and that they're special. One
of the things that I've done from the beginning, and
(30:09):
this is so antiquated, but go with it. Like my
grandmother had a blotter on her desk, I have a
blotterer still on my desk, and I put little notes
on it so it helps me to say so and
so was worried about this or really didn't contribute to this.
And so I keep a running tab of wanting to
make sure that I can prompt people to start to
(30:30):
talk or to say or to lean in on it
so that they realize that I'm thinking about them, that
they're not not seen just because they're not heard.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
How grateful are you for your matriarchy? I'm telling you,
I mean, seriously, I'm so lucky. Lottery, I know, get
the lottery exactly. And Shannon, what do you want your
legacy to be?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
As I have gotten further on in my career, I've
got about this more and more, and it's definitely want
to have somebody say that I left a mark. And
some people say that you want your name to end
up in people's hearts, not on their tombstone. And there's
a quote that I have and again I put everything
(31:13):
in writing and carry around still my day planner. Again
very antiquated from William Ward, and it's the mediocre teacher tells,
the good teacher explains, the superior teacher demonstrates, the great
teacher inspires and I hope that that's something that I'm
able to give to somebody and then they're able to
(31:36):
turn around and be a leader and to inspire others.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Shannon Skuyler, thank you so much for joining us today.
I really appreciated all of your storytelling, your advice, and
oh my gosh, the inspiration. Thank you, absolutely, thank you.
All Right, that's a wrap. Nikia. You are listening the
whole time. You helped me prep for this interview. Did
(32:02):
it go as well as you thought it would?
Speaker 4 (32:04):
It actually went better than expected. I feel like sometimes
corporate people can be, you know, really button up, but
I feel like Shannon, she really had a lot of
great insights, especially on a topic that's so pivotal now
and has been in the news and we've seen, like
you mentioned the interview, like slash budgets for GI. I
really loved how she was saying that you just can't
(32:25):
like get a group of women and put them in
a program and like expect them to come out of
it like great, which I think is what sadly a
lot of companies do. I like how she's very action
based and she is like, it's not just like a number,
we need to really look at the socioeconomic life of
these people. So, yeah, I thought that was really great
(32:45):
to hear for someone in her position.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, I was constantly reminded about how DEI initiatives they
take resources, they require investment, like good investment, and I
think that sometimes when you're working with a lot of budget,
you do these sort of shortcut things and it doesn't
pay off. And I think we have to find ways,
(33:09):
even within a smaller budget, how to make a real
impact and how to make meaningful changes, meaningful impact for
your employees. Know, PwC is a billion dollar company, it's
over a century old, it has resources, and it also
has history. And Shannon herself thirty years at this company.
(33:30):
She's got her experiences there to fall back on and
to learn from. And I don't know if every company
has those advantages. It's not like that it can't be
replicated at smaller to mid sized companies. But I think
that's just something that kept coming up for me, is like,
this is hard work, and I think that companies are
giving up too soon. And I do think it's partly
(33:51):
that they've exhausted their resources, probably not in the best
of ways. They should have hired PwC to help them
figure out how can I make an impact with, you know,
the budgets that I have. I also loved the story
of her mom and her grandmother, and although in the
beginning she mentioned how she's working so hard to continue
(34:14):
to pass the torch and like live their legacy out,
I thought, oh, my gosh, but they were such trailblazers
even in their times. I guess her point was they
didn't get enough credit at the time for how excellent
they were and how ahead of the times they were
for women in a professional field. I mean, especially her mother.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's the beautiful thing about legacy.
And when she touched on her legacy, she really hopes
to like make an impact on people's heart instead of
like just a tombstone. I feel like that's really important
to think about, because you know, you could be an
executive and people just remember you as an executive, but
it's like, who did you affect like the day to
day that people will wake up maybe twenty years after
(34:56):
you're gone, to be like this person still inspires me
till this day. Like that's something very powerful. It seems
like she's very intuitive of how she wants to inspire people,
and it's really beautiful that she's been able to stay
at a company for thirty years. When I read that,
I had like double check to make sure that the
right number, and I was like, I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
But to be clear, you will be staying at iHeart
for a.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Thing, guys on the next CEA.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yes, thirty years.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
It's a long time that we don't see so I'm
wondering if that's like something that's going to change in
the future, if people do adapt. But I feel like
Shannon's story is a testament like if the company invests
in these people not just numbers, that they will grow
and now they're benefiting from investing in Shannon.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Well, listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
follow and subscribe. You don't miss out on any new episodes,
and as always, we want to hear your thoughts to
make this the best show possible, so please leave us
a review. In the meantime, you can find me at
farnws Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the So
Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast is
(36:06):
a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is
Matt Stillo, and our supervising producer is Nikia Swinton. This
podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
Really, the department can't solve for diversity, equity, inclusion that
actually happens on the ground with the people you interact
with every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client,
and we're trying to determine how do you bring that
more and not just say here's a couple of programs
(00:24):
that will solve for this, because.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Your programs aren't going to solve for it.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So how does the culture and the environment really become
more inclusive to do that on its.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Own As companies navigate the shifting landscape of federal diversity policies,
our conversation with PWC's Chief Purpose and Inclusion Officer, Shannon
Schuyler couldn't be more relevant. Although it was recorded before
President Trump's executive order ending federal diversity programs. Shannon brings
(00:52):
three decades of global corporate insight from her more than
fifteen roles at PwC. Her journey illustrates how invest in
talent shapes both individual careers and organizational culture. Shannon examines
how companies can build authentic diversity initiatives that prioritize people
over statistics and recognize the human experiences shaping their employees' lives.
(01:17):
I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
executives making an impact. Shannon Schuyler, Welcome to leading by example.
It's really nice to have you with us. It is
such pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So you are what my mother would say, a people person,
And I wonder how it all started for you. Were
you that child who was engaging and empathetic and love
to lead. Take me back to a story that perhaps
captures the Shannon Schalar that you have now become.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh that is so funny, because I am not a
people person. I am a true introvert. It's very challenging
for me to be in large groups of folks that
I don't know. But I think I grew up being
very intuitive of how people felt and being empathetic. And
I'm always the person. I think even as a child,
(02:13):
and you go back, it's the underdog. It's the kid
who's being picked on on the playground. It's the person
who is being judged by others or bullied. And I've
always been the person that has to run to their defense,
even if sometimes, especially as a child, it was not
necessarily welcome. I was like trying to help people who
just don't have a voice. And I think that's really
(02:33):
what has propelled me to doing the things that I
do now.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Is it really what you would say, what carried you through,
what you studied in school and how you pursued your career.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I grew up with a very matriarchri family and women
who were there helping other women and helping people, whether
it was in nonprofits, whether it was on the farm,
whether it was through local politics, but it was really
trying to uplift people and give people a voice or
hand or help or support who didn't otherwise have it.
And I think that has just become my mantra of
(03:06):
where I am now and what I do.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
The empathy piece is so important, and I think we
sometimes take it for granted. There is now a body
of research. Scientists are studying empathy and kindness as it
pertains to things like ROI and leadership. And I'm just
curious how you think you developed your empathy. We say
empathy can be contagious. Where do you find the sources
(03:29):
of your empathy? That's such a great question, and I
don't know if I've ever thought about it that way.
I think I come from a very sensitive family for
people who are okay with being vulnerable and having the
hard conversations.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I've been with PwC for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
One of our values when I started was put yourself
in someone else's shoes, and I think that that had
always helped to drive me to say, all right, that's
how I think. But how is somebody else perceiving that
their background, where they've come from, the values that they have.
Why would they look at that differently? And how do
I make sure that we're on the same wavelength when
(04:09):
we have the conversations.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Shannon, you wrote about these playing cards that you used
to keep in your wallet for queens specifically, and how
each card represented a woman you admired in your life.
Tell me about these women who were they had they
shape your journey? Well, it's interesting because I had never
planned on doing that. I had, over the course of
years subconsciously taking these cards out and had put them
(04:33):
in my wallet and started carrying them around. And suddenly
when I became the firm's chief purpose officer, I was like,
oh my goodness, someone's going to say, what's your purpose?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And I'm going to be like, I don't have one.
I'm in my forties. I don't know, I've kind of
gotten here. It's really been this is the firm's purpose,
And so I really took time to figure it out,
and I tried to do all the things that people do,
a little bit of retail therapy, a little bit of reading,
and I took a college course and my forties saying,
can I figure out what my purpose is? And randomly,
when I was changing verses one day and I was
(05:01):
changing my wallet to match my purse, I had these
plane cards fall out that are tattered and to the
state even more tattered.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And they are four queens.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And when a woman would pass away in my family
for some random reason, I would take a card and
I would put it in my wallet. And we had,
over the course of really a handful of years, my mother,
my aunt, my two grandmothers passed away who always sat
at the head of the table, and suddenly they were gone.
And I realized then that I was trying to live
(05:30):
for them, so that their voice and what they could
have accomplished. My mother was the first state and local
lobbyist of a bank in Cleveland. These were women who
had so much to give and they didn't get a
chance to give it, and that became why I'd made
the choices of my life, was to give them a voice,
to give other women a voice who can't and who
are not in the position to do so, whether they
(05:51):
are just not given the opportunity, or in my case,
whether they had passed away way too early.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
But my gosh, your mother was such a trailblazer. She
was even in her time, and a really good little golfer.
She was five four and mighty golf too. I know
exactly she was like she I know, and you know
she would be looking down saying.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Why are you playing golf?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Mike?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I know, all right. Shifting gears from golf to your
time at PwC, which is now spanning thirty years, Shannon,
that is just remarkable. I mean, it just feels rare
for anyone to stay longer than five years in one role.
So what's kept you interested in staying? Honestly? Did you
always see yourself at one company for your career? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
No, I mean I had thought of my career when
I graduated from college that I was going to go
into sports broadcasting. Unfortunately I was way too early for
now that women are allowed on the sideline. But back
then that's what I had wanted to do, and I
kind of ended up in petewc in this role. And
like many people, I think, you go in and you're like,
I'm here for three to five years and I'll jump
(06:56):
to something else. But being in an organization that allows
you to go through so many different paths. I've been
in a handful of different offices. I've had probably seventeen
different jobs.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I started in.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Recruiting and then went to human resources, then to marketing
and sales, and then corporate social responsibility, and then sustainability
and then purpose and so you could really reimagine as
I grew as a person. I was able to grow there,
and the people really allowed me to do that, to
create that type of platform, and so incredibly lucky. You
(07:29):
never thought I would do it. I am amazed by
the stats now that folks who are thirty five have
had seven or eight jobs by the time they're there,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to catch
up now in my later years. But that's what really
kept me here. It's the people and the opportunities. Seventeen roles.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Was there one that was what you would call like
good Hard, where it was really challenging, a real learning curve,
but ended up being sort of that one experience that
opened your eyes to the path that you're on now.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think each role has created its own challenges. I
happen to be somebody who really seeks out problems to solve,
which can be really complex but really exciting. I think
some of the things I've gotten the most out of
is the organization has allowed me to create the.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
First of jobs.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Like we never had a great place to work leader,
we never had a corporate responsibility leader, we never had
a foundation, we never had a purpose leader. And so
in some of those cases, just finding what I thought
could help the organization and help our people and help society,
wrote a couple of white papers and was lucky enough
to have the CEOs at the time asked me to
do it. And so I think that really all of
(08:39):
those were challenging when you're the first one to do it. Now,
sometimes I say, the first one to do it is
pretty easy because no one can tell you you're doing
it wrong. But it's also hard to kind of create
what that value is to make sure that it can
be sustainable.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I mean, I really in understanding your background, and now
that you've explained, having these first of roles and the
build to really launch important roles, it's an entrepreneurial spirit
that either you had or was cultivated throughout these thirty years.
Would you agree?
Speaker 4 (09:10):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I agree, And I think it's also that thirst for
learning and to want to continue to grow, like to
want to understand something that you don't know a lot about.
When we started our commitments around especially climate, I knew
nothing about that. That wasn't my background, but I was
so interested in learning and growing and saying what would
(09:32):
this mean for our organization, our people, our clients, the community.
And I think having that just lean in to know
more was really what got me to continue to do
a lot of different things and want to test out
whether or not this would work or not.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I want to go back to what you said about
people who are in their thirties and they've had on
average seven to eight different jobs. Why do you think
that is there is a rarity when it comes to
staying power in a role at a company. Why do
you think there's so much movement.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think there's so many different reasons for the movement.
I think one is people want flexibility, and I think
over the course of the years and now might be
a little bit different since COVID. You want flexibility in
your role and you're kind of searching for what that
could be and what it is. I think as you age,
you begin to want different things out of life, and
sometimes those organizations may or may not be able to
(10:26):
give that to you. I think sometimes you want to
try something different and you can't do it within your organization.
And I think it's good to try different things. I
think it's exciting to know your worth and to be
able to go someplace else, and so I definitely am
jealous that individuals do that and don't find anything wrong
with it, but rather it really I think today's individuals
(10:48):
want that experience and want different experiences and to be inspired,
and they just go to different places to get that done.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yeah, let's shift gears a little bit to talking about diversity,
equity and Inclusion DEI, which is central to your work
and your passion. It's no surprise that you know this.
The diversity equity and inclusion backlash has set in. We've
seen slash budgets, we've seen reduced D and I leadership.
Do you think that this movement is rooted in any truth.
(11:19):
And if you are running public relations for D and I,
what is the message you think that is lost on
some of the leadership right now and what is missing
and it's important to share. It's such a great question,
and it's interesting to sit back and to watch what's happening.
And I think, first of all, whether it is DEI,
whether it is ESG, I mean, pick it, we definitely
(11:40):
have backlash, and it's because people.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Think it means different things.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
DEI at the core of it, was always trying to
make sure that people had an opportunity to have equitable
experiences and to make sure that the human condition and
the variety of backgrounds that people have, that as they
come into organizations, they're allowed to be able to share
that and not have that be something that is a
negative or a takeaway. I think over the course of
(12:06):
the years we've changed that, and we've changed that into
meaning that numbers need to be certain numbers, and we
need to look at the individuals or organizations or race
or religion or what it is that's the worst off
and only focus on this. And I think we've become
smaller and smaller and smaller with how we look at diversity, equity,
(12:27):
and inclusion. I think the hardest part and the most
important part is the equity part. It's really saying we
want people to have an equitable opportunity to be successful
and to be able to move through an organization. It's
not about the number in the box. It's about creating
the culture that allows for people to be treated in
a way that reflects the importance of who they are
(12:48):
and the differences that they have. I think, unfortunately we're
seeing a pendulum swing. I think after the murder of
George Floyd, with great intent, people looked at where they
are within their organizations. Some it based on data, others
just doing it based upon concern and jumped in and
put goals out there. And I think it was trying
to do the right thing, but not really knowing how
people were going to get there and what was the
(13:10):
right way to do it and what they would look like.
And I think it was the same thing when people
made their net zero goals, saying we're going to be
net zero in ten years. Nobody knew how to do it,
but you put it out there. I hope that now
is a time to reflect to say were those right,
because if they are, then you can continue them. If
they weren't and they were an overreach, then you should
look back. I also hope that now companies realize that
(13:32):
they should be looking as we always should have, at
the socioeconomic implications that are out there. This is about
helping the individuals, helping the groups, helping the communities that
truly need the help, not because an individual box was checked.
We need to make sure that we're looking at broadly
who's disadvantaged, and how to make sure that we have
everyone come to the table. And I worry that the
(13:55):
pendulum swum so hard and again with really wonderful people
at tempting to make change and get to a tipping
point when they saw the opportunity to now saying now
we don't need it at all. And I hope that
we can get to that middle ground.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
In some cases there might need to be some reconciliation.
I'm hearing that you see it as sort of like
an over not overreach, but overcorrected. So for those leaders
who feel like we swung too far on the pendulum,
how would you recommend finding a center and reconciling What
are the questions they should be asking, as opposed to
(14:33):
jumping to the conclusion of we need to slash budgets
and eliminate our entire initiative around DEI.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Well, I think it's really important to say what are
we solving for Over the course of five years within
our industry, PwC was the first to actually release all
of our diversity data because you have to actually show
where you are. I mean, a lot of people are
making these goals and making the decision to do something
or not with no data to say what they should
be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. So I
think it's saying, let's step, let's look and say what
(15:01):
really is right or wrong to make sure that we're
making the right steps that are there. I also think
that it's really important that you look at what these
things mean both to your people as well as to
your clients or your customers and your other stakeholders. I
think when people were originally making a lot of their
goals several years ago.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
They didn't look at that. They looked at one issue.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
They looked at something horrible was happening, and how do
we respond to it? Instead of saying, who are all
the stakeholders that are in this and what will they think?
And how do we make sure that what we're putting
out there really helps to elevate everyone?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And we have a narrative for why.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
We're doing it, and I think it's really important that
we get.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
There finding the through line is what I'm hearing. And
in your role, you are working with people across a
spectrum of cultures of lived experiences. How do you connect
with your teams and your people? What are the tools
that you use, Shannon, are their tricks that you have
(16:03):
or you know, just a methodology that you implement.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Well, I think it's about putting all the pieces together.
So going forward, we're now uniting human resources and our
diversity efforts to really say, let's make sure that the
people experience overall is one that can uplift everyone understanding
that there's different things happening one way or another. I
think one of the huge things that we have at
(16:29):
the firm is we've grown to over forty percent of
our people are a part of inclusion networks that allows
individuals to really understand culturally and based upon their demographic
what's happening, but also allows for allies. We've had over
five thousand allies during those groups over the course the
last couple of years, because people want to know and
people want to understand, and so it's less about the programs.
(16:53):
I mean, you have to have things around the edges,
but more about every day, every day, how are people
getting opertunities, how are people working together? How are you
building in that engagement Because you can't just do this
within the department that you were talking about. The department
can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually happens on
(17:13):
the ground with the people you interact with every single day,
whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client, And we're trying
to determine how do you bring that more and not
just say here's a couple of programs that will solve
for this, because your programs aren't going to solve for it.
So how does the culture and the environment really become
more inclusive to do that on its own? What do
(17:35):
you think are some of the limitations? Or I should say,
how far should your employer go to address and meet
you where you're at on a personal level? Right if
you're dealing with whether it's financial struggles, you're dealing with
microaggressions at work and outside of work if you're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Mental health issues. Life is hard on so many skills.
You're a caregiver for your parents, for your children, and
we bring all of that to work. And what do
you see as kind of like the guidelines around that,
because your employer is not your therapist, but there still
needs to be a level of understanding and empathy.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's such a great question, and my feeling is arguably
you spend more time at work, depending upon your job,
than you do anywhere else. So the thought that you
should come to work and not deal with any of
those issues and just sit down and do your things
and leave is just not feasible.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Nowadays, during the workday, you could get a call from
somebody to your point, you could deal with mental health issues,
So that your employer has to have resources to be
able to give you outlets to deal with those types
of issues, and I think.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
That that's really important.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The lines have blurred so much in hybrid even has
had those lines blur even more so where you're doing
so much of your personal alongside your work and your
work alongside your personal. So I think organizations do you
have to have outlets to support issues around mental health.
I think they do have to have things that help
(19:06):
you around childcare and caregiving and emergency childcare backup. I
think your employers do have to have resources to help
you in financial planning and help you to repay your
college loans. You have to be able to deal with
that in order to function at the level that I
think a lot of companies certainly want you to be
able to function.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
That. Yeah, investing in your workforce means investing not just
in their professional wellbeing, but also their personal wellbeing, their
financial wellbeing. I so appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I think the one thing that companies are realizing though,
and I think again this is another one of those
pendulum swinging is that you don't have to answer every
single thing that every single employee has a challenge on.
And I think as we've seen in the last several years,
there's so many social issues, there's climate issues, there's all
these different issues that have become especially so politicized, and
(19:56):
for a while, I think companies thought, I'm going to
have to weigh in on everything, and that's too much.
That kind of waters down the ability to actually say
when there's something that matters Okay, now we're going to
talk about it because it's something as an organization we
can actually help to influence. And I think that's one
that is going to be really interesting for employees when
(20:17):
they had for a little bit their leaders commenting on everything,
and now I think you have a lot of leaders
that are saying, let's really decide what we're going to
what are the things we really are because we think
we actually can help to solve for them versus anything
happens we have to weigh in. Coming up after the break,
(20:37):
Shannon and I talk about the decision to take PWC's
DEI data, public executive accountability and the skills that will
equip leaders for the future. That's why you have to
get into that shared accountability space. That's really important because
that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
We'll be right back back.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
How would you describe your leadership style, Shannon, and how
has it changed or evolved throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I've always liked to be a problem solver.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
In an organization that's been around for over one hundred
and seventy years, there's a lot of things that we
can do the same, but just think of all the
things that we could learn from and really try to
do differently. And so really like to push the envelope
and to push the team to think outside of the box.
Certainly like to be very collaborative, like to hear views,
(21:39):
like to hear people try to throw something random at
the wall, But at the end of the day, really
like to make decisions relatively quickly and to move on.
I think it's really important, especially when you're in a
support function, that you realize the importance and the role
that you play, and you have to make sure to
hold yourself to the same scrutiny that you would if
(21:59):
you were in the client facing and you were selling
a product. If it doesn't work, you got to look
at it and you can decide I'm not doing it
anymore and you got to go to something else. I
think you have to do the same thing within areas
in support of if it doesn't work, let's move on,
Like you can't get wetted to something. And so it's
making sure that our functions stays as fast and as
focused on things that you can measure, and really looking
(22:22):
at ourselves in the mirror and if it works, great,
let's show the example. If it doesn't, let's pivot and
do something differently.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
What's a story that you can share of a really
difficult time, a decision that you had to make that
there wasn't a whole lot of buy in, but you
felt strongly.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Well, I think a lot of things were challenging. Even
when we made the decision to be able to release
our data from a diversity, equity and inclusion, we had
never done that and we decided in a relatively short
period of time that it was something that we felt
we wanted to do for us as an organization to
be able to move forward. Well, that wasn't incredibly popular
(22:58):
at the time. There's a lot that goes in to
being able to share that as well as our people
would suddenly see where we were and what that meant
and what that meant for them, And we had to
have a lot of conversations about it, and even within
the team who had done diversity for a very long time,
they didn't want to necessarily share where we were, not
to hide it, but not knowing how to make it better,
(23:21):
and this would be out there, and so it was
really having to get people on board with what it
could mean, how this could take us to the next place,
and then saying, once we make the decision, we're all
in together, and we all have to make sure that
we're going to say this was the right thing for
us collectively, and now what are we going to do
to take that to the next level.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
I've been in meetings where leadership will share data around
let's just say, diversity in hiring in the last quarter
or the last year, and it's not always bright, it's
not always upward trajectory, and that can be uncomfortable for leaders, right,
But that's what's called whole yourself accountable. And I want
(24:02):
to hear your thoughts on accountability and how leaders can
get more comfortable around this notion of being accountable.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Leaders are accountable for so many different things, from the
number of hours that they have or their teams have,
or the revenue that they generate, or the product penetration.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That they have.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And I think it becomes harder when you look at
it from people because you're dealing with behaviors, you're dealing
with decision making, you're dealing with family dynamics, you're dealing
with all of these different things that can feed into
why people are treated differently, why someone decides to come
to work for your organization or doesn't end up on
that recruiting area, why someone decides to stay, why they go,
(24:43):
And that becomes more challenging because suddenly I'm accountable for
something that I might not even have any influence over,
and then how does that work? And so I think
it's just a complexity. But I think once you have
the information and the data you can start to work
to get, you can start to say it's not on
one person. If someone's going to say or someone's going
(25:04):
to go with the firm, or someone's successful or someone's not,
or someone gets promoted or someone doesn't, or someone decides
to come into the organization or not, that's based on
a lot of different things and a lot of different
interactions that they have, which is why diversity is so hard,
because you got to fix each.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And every one of those.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You have to see what's going on with all of
those as well as the decision that that individual just
wants to make. And I think that's what people get
nervous when they hear about accountability. They're like, how can
I be accountable? When there's so many different factors, but
then at the end of the day, it's only going
to be me. And I think that's why you have
to get into that shared accountability space. That's really important
(25:43):
because that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So let's talk about change and the future and your
advice for those who are listening who want to grow
in a way that sets them apart for other organizations
in the inclusion space, and maybe you can use PwC
as an example as a leader in that.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I think organizations have to say where are we trying
to go with this?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
What does it mean for us?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And really be able to spell those things out, and
then also take a look at the whole organization and
of the whole experience that somebody has to say, what
and where does it happen where people are not treated inclusively?
Where does it happen where we're not equitable? And it's
not about fixing one thing but the entire journey. So
(26:35):
it's surgically going through what's happening in the recruiting process,
what's happening in the ratings process, what's happening in the
promotion process, what's happening in the getting on this client process.
And it's really having to have that very surgical set
of actions to be able to pull the levers to
look for change. And I think sometimes companies want to
(26:55):
make it easy, like we're going to get to this
number and we're going to have a program, and we're
going to send all women to that program, and somehow
that program is going to make women more successful. Well,
it doesn't happen like that. It is the individual things
that are said and the actions that take place. And
I think PwC has done that really well and saying
(27:17):
we're not just sending everyone someplace. This is about monitoring
every single day where every single person is in getting
their feedback in order to really understand what we need
to change.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, and in terms of even just the mindset shifts
or the mindset adoptions that leaders need. And I'm talking
now again to maybe the next generation of leaders, I'm
hearing from you that skills like collaboration, empathy, and ease
with accountability really important. What would you add to that list.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I mean, one of the things I learned early on
was listen more than you talk. So this isn't just
about you and what you want to accomplish, but really
have that desire to learn why people have the points
of view that they do, and to make sure that
you're asking the questions to make sure you understand what
you're hearing and not just walk away saying all right,
(28:12):
this is what I took away. Also making sure that
you can find trusted safe space. I think in everything
that we do, you're better when you get feedback on hey,
this hit the mark.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And this didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
And when you look at things like diversity, that's a
tough one because some of the times if you miss
the mark, that then you probably hurt somebody.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And so you have to.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Make sure that you're creating these trusted groups so that
you can get things wrong and whether that's wrong on diversity,
or you did something wrong creating a presentation, and you
have that trust that someone will actually tell you that.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Was an ideal.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The other thing that I think is incredibly important, and
I look at the individuals within our organization and myself
and it's really don't suffer those imaginary problems.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Just get do it when you get to it.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Don't worry about the eighteen different things that what happened right,
and to really stay present in the moment without having
that type of fear. I think that's really important as
individuals are looking at starting their career and where can
they get next.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
As we tie everything together here, Shannon, and a couple
of questions we like to ask our guests. One is
just what does leading by example mean to you?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I truly believe it's around treating people with respect and dignity.
It's making sure that you interact consistently and frequently with
people to understand what's motivating them and what are the
things that draws them to the things that you're doing.
Making sure that the individuals who don't typically have a
(29:47):
voice gets a voice. And so when you're sitting around
the table and the three people who always raise their
hand or always just blurt things out, make sure the
other three really have a chance to say the things
that are important to them, and really make sure that
people feel that they're heard and that they're special. One
of the things that I've done from the beginning, and
(30:09):
this is so antiquated, but go with it. Like my
grandmother had a blotter on her desk, I have a
blotterer still on my desk, and I put little notes
on it so it helps me to say so and
so was worried about this or really didn't contribute to this.
And so I keep a running tab of wanting to
make sure that I can prompt people to start to
(30:30):
talk or to say or to lean in on it
so that they realize that I'm thinking about them, that
they're not not seen just because they're not heard.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
How grateful are you for your matriarchy? I'm telling you,
I mean, seriously, I'm so lucky. Lottery, I know, get
the lottery exactly. And Shannon, what do you want your
legacy to be?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
As I have gotten further on in my career, I've
got about this more and more, and it's definitely want
to have somebody say that I left a mark. And
some people say that you want your name to end
up in people's hearts, not on their tombstone. And there's
a quote that I have and again I put everything
(31:13):
in writing and carry around still my day planner. Again
very antiquated from William Ward, and it's the mediocre teacher tells,
the good teacher explains, the superior teacher demonstrates, the great
teacher inspires and I hope that that's something that I'm
able to give to somebody and then they're able to
(31:36):
turn around and be a leader and to inspire others.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Shannon Skuyler, thank you so much for joining us today.
I really appreciated all of your storytelling, your advice, and
oh my gosh, the inspiration. Thank you, absolutely, thank you.
All Right, that's a wrap. Nikia. You are listening the
whole time. You helped me prep for this interview. Did
(32:02):
it go as well as you thought it would?
Speaker 4 (32:04):
It actually went better than expected. I feel like sometimes
corporate people can be, you know, really button up, but
I feel like Shannon, she really had a lot of
great insights, especially on a topic that's so pivotal now
and has been in the news and we've seen, like
you mentioned the interview, like slash budgets for GI. I
really loved how she was saying that you just can't
(32:25):
like get a group of women and put them in
a program and like expect them to come out of
it like great, which I think is what sadly a
lot of companies do. I like how she's very action
based and she is like, it's not just like a number,
we need to really look at the socioeconomic life of
these people. So, yeah, I thought that was really great
(32:45):
to hear for someone in her position.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, I was constantly reminded about how DEI initiatives they
take resources, they require investment, like good investment, and I
think that sometimes when you're working with a lot of budget,
you do these sort of shortcut things and it doesn't
pay off. And I think we have to find ways,
(33:09):
even within a smaller budget, how to make a real
impact and how to make meaningful changes, meaningful impact for
your employees. Know, PwC is a billion dollar company, it's
over a century old, it has resources, and it also
has history. And Shannon herself thirty years at this company.
(33:30):
She's got her experiences there to fall back on and
to learn from. And I don't know if every company
has those advantages. It's not like that it can't be
replicated at smaller to mid sized companies. But I think
that's just something that kept coming up for me, is like,
this is hard work, and I think that companies are
giving up too soon. And I do think it's partly
(33:51):
that they've exhausted their resources, probably not in the best
of ways. They should have hired PwC to help them
figure out how can I make an impact with, you know,
the budgets that I have. I also loved the story
of her mom and her grandmother, and although in the
beginning she mentioned how she's working so hard to continue
(34:14):
to pass the torch and like live their legacy out,
I thought, oh, my gosh, but they were such trailblazers
even in their times. I guess her point was they
didn't get enough credit at the time for how excellent
they were and how ahead of the times they were
for women in a professional field. I mean, especially her mother.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's the beautiful thing about legacy.
And when she touched on her legacy, she really hopes
to like make an impact on people's heart instead of
like just a tombstone. I feel like that's really important
to think about, because you know, you could be an
executive and people just remember you as an executive, but
it's like, who did you affect like the day to
day that people will wake up maybe twenty years after
(34:56):
you're gone, to be like this person still inspires me
till this day. Like that's something very powerful. It seems
like she's very intuitive of how she wants to inspire people,
and it's really beautiful that she's been able to stay
at a company for thirty years. When I read that,
I had like double check to make sure that the
right number, and I was like, I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
But to be clear, you will be staying at iHeart
for a.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Thing, guys on the next CEA.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yes, thirty years.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
It's a long time that we don't see so I'm
wondering if that's like something that's going to change in
the future, if people do adapt. But I feel like
Shannon's story is a testament like if the company invests
in these people not just numbers, that they will grow
and now they're benefiting from investing in Shannon.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Well, listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
follow and subscribe. You don't miss out on any new episodes,
and as always, we want to hear your thoughts to
make this the best show possible, so please leave us
a review. In the meantime, you can find me at
farnws Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the So
Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast is
(36:06):
a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is
Matt Stillo, and our supervising producer is Nikia Swinton. This
podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
Host
Farnoosh Torabi
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