July 7, 2023 • 41 mins
Former Boston Globe sports journalist Bob Ryan is interviewed by producers Don Markus and Dave Ungrady in relation to his coverage of the team during and after the draft of Len Bias. Bob speaks to the immediate reaction of the team to Len's death, and what it would have meant to have Bias as a Celtic.
Bob Ryan has been described as "the quintessential American sportswriter" and a basketball guru, and is well known for his coverage of the NBA and in particular the Boston Celtics.
Episode 9 - Len Bias: A Mixed Legacy - From Dynasty to Drought: How the Death of Len Bias Impacted the Celtics and the NBA goes into further detail on the impact of Bias's death to the Boston Celtics.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
As the nineteen eighty six NBA Draft arrived, the Boston
Celtics had reclaimed their position as an NBA champion. They
won the title that year, it's third of the decade,
and Bob Ryan was in a prime position to chronicle
the team's successes. Ryan was a columnist for the Boston
Globe with a focus on the Celtics. Few journalists were
(00:25):
as dialed into the team at that time as Ryan.
This is Davon Grady, executive producer of the podcast series
Born Ready A Mixed Legacy, which is based on the
book I authored called Born Ready The Mixed Legacy of
len Bias. In this episode of the interviews, Ryan offers
his reflections of the nineteen eighty six draft, the one
(00:48):
that gave len bias to the Celtics, as it turned out,
all too briefly. He talks with podcast producer Don Marcus.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Now, you were were you the columnless at that point
and were you still covering the league and the team
at that point?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was covering the beat. I had gone back for
the third and would turn out to be a final
time in the February of that year, and it was
a chain of events that took place when Peter Gammans
left the Globe for the second and final time to
go to Sports Illustrated for the second and final time,
and Dan Shaughnessy had been covering the team after I
had given it up in nineteen eighty two, and he
(01:30):
immediately put his hand up for baseball. That was totally
was always his first love, right, and so he got
the baseball beat, and then long story short, after they
had interviewed a couple of other people. I was very
content doing what I was doing at that time, which
was basically being a basketball guy at large for college
and pro and writing columns along the way. I was
kind of a real big I was a utility man,
(01:52):
you know, but a happy one. And I finally accepted,
all right, I'll take it, I said, you know, And well,
that's when they were kicked in the eighty five eighty
six Celtics, That's when they were peaking. That's when they
were totally kicking ass every night, and it was the
greatest show on basketball Earth at the time, and I
(02:14):
fell into it and I got totally So anyway, I
went up doing for another tune that had rested that year.
In two more years, so yes, I was in fact,
the beat Man when when that draft was held?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What what do you what do you remember going into
the draft? Now they had just won the championship, so
there wasn't a whole lot of time after that.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well no, because to see, they didn't win in eighty five.
They lost it to the Lakers in eighty six. Oh,
in eighty six, Yeah, they went. They win the championship
and and have this bonus of the number two pick
in the draft thanks to this wonderful trade that Jan
Volk had worked with the Sonics way back when, which
traded and they traded Gerald Henderson for the Seattle number
(02:58):
one in eighty six. No one on either side, assuming
the Tonics were going to state bad enough that you'd
get a really prime pick, they would been very happy
with ten, eleven, twelve. Believe me, well, they're going to
have number two pick. And on top of being a champion.
It was it was a it was orgasmic, you know,
I'm telling you. If people were so excited, and of course,
(03:18):
you know, the big question was Daugherty or or Lenny.
I remember I was doing some radio as we all
were right now at the time, and we were interviewing
the coaches of the prospective draft picks for the Celtics,
Dana Kirk, because William Bedford was a possibility and among others.
(03:40):
And we interviewed Lefty and I'll never forget Lefty talking
about Lenny and these words have resonated in my head
for obviously the last thirty five years. Leonard's only vice
is ice cream and I'll never forget I'm saying that,
and you know, but yeah, so we talked to Lefty
about about Lenny.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, was we We talked to Pat Williams a couple
of weeks ago, and he told the story about Jack McMahon.
They didn't even they didn't even bring Bias in to
talk to him because McMahon said there's something about him
I don't like. And then they trade the pick, They
trade the pick Cleveland. Was there any talk about any
(04:24):
of this, you know, these machinations going on at the time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
I recall nothing of that sort. Okay, nothing that's news
to me. Yeah, because I love Jack and I would
respect anything that Jack had to say. Quite frankly, so
I don't know what, Yeah, what he had, Yeah, he
knew something nobody else knew. But I had not We
had heard nothing of that nature.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Now. Okay, So so the night of the Drafter, of
the day of the Drafter in New York, I'm in Boston. Oh,
you're in Boston, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I'm at the draft site, which was the at the Garden,
the old press room, and uh so, yeah, I'm at
the Garden for the draft.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, when they get by, and when when Doughty goes first,
Bias goes second. Was there a feeling that they got
you know, almost like in terms of when Jordan went
a couple of years before it, they actually got the
better pick.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
You know, first of all, I don't think enough who's
the they? First of all, who are the people were
talking about the media, I'm not even sure. I know
the fans didn't understand how good he was. I'm pretty
sure about that, and I don't know about the rest
of the media. I was fortunate in that I had
actually seen him play. I was actually there done the
night he drop forty on on Duke and Cameron told yeah,
(05:40):
I was there for I don't know what I was doing.
I don't know, but I was there and I remember
talking to Kay after him after it and so forth. Okay,
so I happened to be there that night, so it
was very fresh in my mind, but no people knew
it was really good. But yeah, I mean, I guess
in retrospect people were pretty excited about it, and so yeah, no,
(06:04):
like can I say.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, yeah, who did he did he remind you of anybody?
Was unique?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Because I think I've always it wasn't exactly the style
per se, but the level I thought he would attain.
And I've always used this analogy for the last thirty
five years. I don't think he was the super duper.
You know, he's not Maxic Michael Larry Lebron. He's worthy,
He's that level. He's a perennial All Star. He's going
(06:30):
to the Hall of Fame, but it's the next tier
of greatness, the second tier. Still a great and still
a Hall of Famer, and you know, and now, of course,
you know, the whole thing with the Celtics was he
was going to be for the twenty four hours or
less than eighteen hours, he was going to be the
bridge between the Big three and the next generation and
you know, ideal, incredible, How lucky can you get? Bird?
(06:53):
Apparently actually in that interim that very short period of time,
was excited. He knew something, he had seen it. He
was excited about I'm going to come to camp early
even you know, work with that kind of thing. So, uh,
you know, at least he knew or how he felt.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You when you say you didn't think he was of
the you know, in that in that pantheon? What what
what at that point and did you think he could
have you know, if if you know, if he had
exceeded those of your expectations.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Well, I mean the point is that you have your
own grade dation, right, and the Mount Olympus and the
people that are you know, on the waiting list for
Mount Olympus, and then you know, and at that point
in time, you know, the the reigning, the all time
great list of the unquestionable included the three centers naturally Russell,
(07:47):
Wilton and Commune uh Oscar and Jerry at that point
were still you know, and then the current guys at
the current guys at that time, you know, we're magic
Michael and well actually Michael yet Michael hadn't. This is
not Michael yet. It's Magic and Larry and Michael's knocking
on the door, which he did on that April twentieth
when he dropped the sixty three points. But but, but
Michael's knocking on the door. Okay, but no, just the
(08:09):
idea of of you have you exulted? I wasn't ready
to put him on the top of the list, but
I certainly thought he was going to be an It
was a dream picked to be an all Star. Let
me just say before I forget that twice subsequently and
over these years, Coach k has told me that the
two greatest opponents he ever faced were Michael and Lynn Bias.
(08:33):
And that's pretty high praise.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, where, uh, what do you remember about June nineteenth
and and and what and there you get your phone
call and what happened?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
We can back it up to the night of the draft.
The day of the draft, he comes to Bust for
the press randolais and I was on part of w
ee I Radio at the time, well you know, as
a contributor, and I was part of the interview process
for him. And I can still see him sitting across
(09:07):
from me and us in a gray suit with a
Selt the cat and his father, I believe, beaming behind him.
And I'll never forget, you know, the interviewed him and
then next thing you know. You know he went off
with wherever he went, you know, And here's my story.
Everybody's got a story. So the next day, I'm going
to say, somewhere between nine and ten in the morning,
(09:28):
I'm prepared to go to my office to do whatever
I was planning on writing that day. I was a
big office guy. A lot of call people weren't, but
I was. I love to go to the office. So
I am about to get in the car when my son,
who was then sixteen years old, came running out of
the house. Dad, Dad, lend Bias is dead? What okay?
(09:50):
And there it went. I said, well, I guess I'm
going to the art garden. I'm not going home to
the office. And that's it. That's how I found out.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And being in Boston, now I know people were down
in College Park and even people there didn't know for
you know, they said, heart attack.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well at what point.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Did you did you suspect did you think it could
be drugs or or I mean, it's so rare for
a guy that that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I honestly now, I'm not dodging here. I don't remember
the I have to go see what I wrote, even
which you know, I don't know what. I don't know
what I wrote, frankly, and and that day, I don't
know what speculation, you know, what level of speculation there
was in the first twenty four hours. I honestly do
not recall. I'm no good on this chronology at all whatsoever. Okay,
(10:36):
So I absoutely don't know. And now you've got to
be curious. When we're done here, I'm going to newspapers
dot com and I'm going to see what the hell
I wrote, because I don't know what I wrote right right, Well,
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
One of the things I wrote, I was I was
at I was in uh even though I was covering Maryland,
I was at the US Open at Shinnecock And as
that playing golf, came back to the in a place
where we were saying and it was on the news.
And but one of the things I wrote was that
the Celtics were not only a really good fit for
(11:09):
him from a basketball standpoint, because he didn't have to
be the star and for and jan Volt said the
other day, that's rare for a number two pick in
the draft not to have those huge expectations, but also
knowing his personality and knowing that he didn't really love
the media that he didn't he dealing with us at
(11:30):
least the one year I dealt with him at Maryland.
He wouldn't have had to deal with the media that
much in Boston because you had all these larger than
life guys with Larry at the top of the list
taking all the all the air you know, the airspace.
Would would that have helped him, you know, in terms
of not having to be the guy.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
If if that's your personality, absolutely yes, yeah, So others
might resent the fact that they were getting the attention
they thought they deserve. But if he felt that way
would have been ideal. It was it was so ideal
and thought theory now because so yeah, that's a good point,
and I I uh, I think that the suppositions correct.
That would because there's no question there was a pecking order,
(12:15):
you know, and and he would have been far down
the list. He got four Hall of Famers right off
the top of the bat, you know, and h Walton
went out five because Walton was still there, because his
contribution was over. He got hurt immediately in that next
season and was played ten games and retired. So that
was it. But they did, in fact up. As it
turns out, five Hall of famers in that team, and
(12:35):
and and Danny Ainge was pretty damn good, a fourteen
year player of consequence. So that was the roster. Yeah.
And Kyle Whitman no matter too, Ye all star.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
One of the things that Jan Volk said, one of
the things he liked about about Bias is that he
played mean. There was there was a there was an
attitude that he played with, an aggression that.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
He played with.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And he said that red love. I'm not sure if
the word was instigators or intimidators. And evedn't like guys
who just reacted to those guys, and that he thought
Jan votes that he thought Lend fit that mold. When
you saw him play, did you see that like you?
And when you put it together when he was drafted,
(13:20):
you said, you know, the guy has a great attitude,
the right sort of toughness to be to be a Celtic.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I don't think there's any question, you know, And my
memory was fresh because I had seen him get the
forty against Duke. Wasn't the first time and only time
I saw him in person, but obviously saw him a TV,
you know, over his career and it was very, very impressed.
Of course. Oh the idea that the team had just
won sixty seven games, had just gone through the to
(13:50):
the playoffs was one of the great one season teams
of all time. I still think as good as any
team that ever played was going to add a player
of this consequence was the lips were drooling, you know
how you know, I mean, people were just freaking out.
But then again, we're talking about twenty four hours, you know,
or less. But the idea of it was was tremendous.
(14:10):
And the good fortune and now here's the other thing.
He was viewed as the turnaround, good luck charm, you
know that they needed they get back on track. In
that regard, has turned out he started out to be
the beginning of the bad karma that lasted over twenty years.
You know, Reggie Lewis being another you know, terrible story,
(14:34):
terrible story. But anyway, it was, it was just so
too good to be true kind of thing. And I'm
the thing I've always wondered in retrospect is how Red
would have handled it. Sooner or later he would have
had to play more worthy, you know, and and you know,
what do they do? They're going to break up the
(14:54):
big You're not trade Larry's I forget that, you know,
that's never happening. Trade Kevin with that been you know,
as a bridge player to get you picks, and you know,
and and and then Lenny becomes the next the new
number two guy. Uh, we'll never know, but as a
total mood point, so you know. And as it turned out,
the Big three were never broken up. They just went expired,
(15:17):
you know, one by one they broke down they did.
Larry went first, and then like Kevin went, and then
Robert went and and that was it. And and theave
Gavin agonized over this when he was in charge what
to do, what to do, what to do? And he
didn't do anything, and it just deteriorated.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, was was Bias's death the you know, sort of
the the sort of the beginning of that demise or
did it really take for what you said happened with
these guys breaking down? And then also obviously the tragedy
with Beggie Lewis to sort of that was that was
really what what Catapault died the you know.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yeah, I mean you date it with with Bias and
and then you throw in that having u the thought
that fifty and fifteen games, you know, back in the
one year, and they don't get the number one pick,
you know, they get three and six. It turns out
to be Chauncy Phillips who Patino gave up one too
soon and Ryan Mercer who didn't make it. And anyway,
(16:13):
and there are a lot of what was us going
on from nineteen for that date in eighty seven on
eighty six excuse me, until Danny made the trade and
you know for Allen and then here come in Garnett
and put that team together twenty years later, twenty years
later that did win the championship.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, I had a prominent former Maryland player tell me
he wondered if Bias was as as as Dave has
written in his book, more than just a one time
You know, this wasn't a one time dealer. You know,
he he used he used cocaine before this, and this
time they killed him. Given the culture of the NBA
(16:56):
then and how prevalent you know, cocaine used was in
society and in sports, do you think that there was
a danger of a with any players. I mean, you
look at David Thompson's career, you look at John Lucas
that that that was that that that might have been
the thing that held not only you know, these got
(17:17):
those guys back from being all time greats, but but
anybody and and when you have a guy like Bias,
this could have just you know, it could have. It
could have been this was an ultimate tragedy, but it
could have also with the prevalence of cocaine, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
It was, it was.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
It was a tough road for some of these young
guys to navigate.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I've always found it difficult to believe it was a
one time deal. I've always fo That's all I can say.
Find it very difficult to believe. It just sounds very
naive to me to think that this was just an
experiment going wrong. Okay, I can't disagree with the premise
that this if this if he did have a liking,
I will say I have it, but a liking and
(18:01):
a proclivity and a and an interest in it at all.
This was the wrong per time in history, that's for sure,
because that's exactly there were lots of stories of that
the NBA was was going through a very bad period
at that time. It was a dark dark age in
that regard, and John Lucas you mentioned like God, I
lived through that, and Uh, to me, he was always
(18:21):
a symbol how powerful the drug is when a man
that intelligent, that aware. Uh, it was seemed to be
powerless to the drug at the time. Uh, you know
without that that God impressed me, you know me, that
scared me and drove home, drove home to me. How
how powerful it could be? Oh, I don't know. Yeah,
I think it's conceivable. I mean, but again, rampant speculation,
(18:42):
just on my rampant speculation as to what would have
had to answer it happened, what happened with the Celtics
over a three or four or five year period, if
he had as he had matured as a player, how
they would have had handled it. But I'm going to
assume he would have had to feel that he needed
to play more and deserve to play more than he
was going to play as a rookie. And and but
you know, and all this is speculation. That's what we're
(19:03):
left with.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You do you think he would have if he if
he had lived up to his the talent that you saw,
he would have because of who he was playing with,
where he was playing, and and sort of the league
as a way to create these rivalries, whether they're natural
or not natural. He would have been pushed out there
as as the rival to Michael Jordan and given given
(19:26):
the fact that they had it similar to their history
in the ACC.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I don't well, it might have been more external. I
don't think it would have been internal. I don't think
the Celtics were into that kind of thing necessarily. I
don't must they are different. There were different players. I
mean when when when when coach k told me that,
I thought of it. I started thinking about the nature
of their games and he was saying, these are the
greatest opponents. He didn't say they were similar because they
weren't necessarily know and he was I don't think him
(19:54):
in the same terms as Michael at all. Uh you
know Michael and Kobe. Yeah, you think of them and
and that skill set. I don't see his skills. That's
why I mentioned Worthy. I think it's a I think
Worthy is a as good a comparison as I've ever
come up with as to uh everything about him, and
uh you know, maybe Worthy it was a little bit
quicker up down the floor, but he was stronger, I think,
and inside there would have been there would have been
(20:14):
a trade off there, but he certainly could get up
and down the floor. But but I just think that
that's the level I'm talking about, And I don't think
the Celtics would have been actively promoting you know that.
Uh once again, I don't that. I don't recall any
instances where they really indulge in that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Even with Larry and Bird that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Was no, that was all. No, no, really, it was
as external the world at large saw it that way.
And and and Larry and Magic didn't shy away from
the fact that they respect it before they got to
know each other, which didn't happen till eighty five, when
it was merely a rival, a professional rivalry. They were
always complementary of each other's games and not afraid to
(20:55):
say that. So they were, you know, and a while
and you know, Magic told me when I did a story,
uh for Sports Illustrated once on them that you know,
he would in fact circle the calendar, you know, when
the schedule came out, you know, and you know, he
looked forward. And both of them admitted that they watched
the box scores and if one got a triple double,
(21:16):
the other one, you know, uh, maybe tonight you know,
I got to get one. It was a friendly, but
it was never angry or bitter. It was totally based
on mutual respect and the feeling that that the the
other guy saw the game the way he did, and
and and and respected the game the way he did.
That's what they liked about each other.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
When Biased died, do you did you think that the
did it impact the NBA in terms of the their
awareness of of of players that in terms of drug use,
in terms of doing investigations into players, more, more homework,
you know, more background checks or was it just a
one off that this guy died and and that.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Was and a uh star Cross draft in general, right,
And I think it bottomed out there, but it didn't didn't. Uh,
it's not like everybody had an epiphany. Uh what year
was Tarpley? Same year year was? The year it was
(22:20):
Chris Chris Chris, Chris Washburn, Oh my god, Chris Washburn.
You know, what a what a what a what a
star Cross bunch? That was everybody but the man at
the top, who you know, Brad Fay, clear of all
as far as I know, right right, But yeah, I
don't think there was an epiphany yet. I think but
it certainly was the It didn't never never got any
(22:41):
worse than that crop, I don't think for for a
draft class. But it didn't end until you know, the
lake damage didn't improve at all until until we got
Michael really became, you know, more and more the focus
in the late nine eighties, and and uh and and
that and so that's what I have to say. It
(23:03):
was a dark period. It was a bad period.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Did the Celtic fans how did they react to to
bias his death was? Did they view it as a tragedy?
Did they Were they angry that, you know, this great
guy did something.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Really I can't I would think they would proportionately dine
It were more of a feeling of what a waste
and how horrible this is the young you know, the
the the a house of the athlete, dying young thing,
you know, more than anything, I don't think. I don't
think too many people are thanks a lot, you screwed
(23:39):
us now you know we were gonna you were going
to be our bridge and you're not here. I don't
think there was much of that. I think it was
just the shock and tragedy and feeling, you know, plus
right away his mom was out out front in the public,
you know, and and uh, you know you so you know,
you focus your your your your thoughts and energy on
her loss. And so fourth, so that was part of
(24:01):
the two because she was very, very definitely prominent, prominent
from the beginning. M h.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
In terms of when when I remember running up to Boston,
when you know, flying up there, when we heard that
because he was from Baltimore, that Reggie Lewis had collapsed,
and and then by the time I landed at Logan
he was dead. And then being there that whole week
and then for the for the for the memorial service
(24:27):
at Northeastern and everything.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Was there.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I can't remember was there much talk about by it.
Were the two tragedies intertwined for for years or were
they separate because Reggie Lewis was the captain of the
team when he died. Bias was a draft.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
It was bias. It was bias. We hardly knew you,
We didn't know you. And Reggie Lewis was had become
uh you know by the time he died, was was
the best player on the team. Larry was, you know,
about a point going, and Kevin was in this last
year and and and Robert was getting older. Read Reggie
the reigning all start to tell you know, you know,
he was their new best player.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And plus he had the background of Northeastern and and
so he had people were familiar with him that for
uh near up almost a decade, and it hit home,
you know, tremendously, tremendously, But it was hard. I don't
remember exactly how much linkage. If the linkage was more
woe was us? You know, the Celtics. What do we
do to deserve this kind of thing as a you know,
(25:26):
the Celtics. Uh, but certainly Reggie's was a major Sorry,
Reggie was a big star for the younger, younger fans
particularly I'll never forget you. You mentioned that day and
and the the the mix of humanity that lined the streets,
and and it went to that service.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You know, he had touched an awful broad swath of
the Boston community public. Reggie had and you know he
because up to that point, there was never anything to
worry about with Reggie, you know, until the collapse to
you know, he had things. He had a turkey giveaway
of Thanksgiving. He was he was a soft spoken, not boastful,
(26:07):
you know, he was an exemplary, you know, a representative
for your team, et cetera. You know, he was beloved,
he really was, and so that we were that would
a hit Hoard.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
One of the things that Dave wrote about now we've
we've learned even more since we started doing this, is
that how politicians used bias his death to sort of
enact tougher drug laws with the nineteen eighty six Anthey
Drug Abuse Act, and in one of those I think
(26:40):
Tip O'Neil was one of those obviously influential people in Washington.
Was there any talk up there in Boston? Do you
remember anything about Bias his name coming up with struggles?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah? Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Does Bias have a legacy in Boston or because he
never played for the Celtics there, there is no legacy.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
No, I mean, it's it's it's a known I'd love
to know, for example, if you if you interviewed the
average twenty five year old Celtic fan, now whether he
or she how much they know at all about it.
I'd be curious. I you know, it's a it's part
of his it's a history thing. Yeah, it's not real,
(27:27):
you know, it doesn't resonate to the younger people. Now,
I don't think at all in anyway. So the answer
is no. And maybe if he had played a year
and teased everybody what how good he was and then
it happened, you know, But but since he never played
a second, since Celtic career was less than twenty four
hours total. I you know, I don't think it's there's
a residence for all the for anybody who wasn't there.
(27:50):
And you know I was there, and and you know,
I'll never forget my son running out of the house
a moment, you know, and and it was it was
it was a stunning stunning was it?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I mean given everything you've covered, every every event, every athlete,
I mean, was it among the most shocking things? I mean,
do you have clear memories of that as people have
they were with a Kennedy assassination?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Well, yeah, we know, I just told you. Yeah. For me,
in the moment is how I found out was my
son drive running out of the ass and having heard
it on the radio or seen it on to you,
I don't know which way it was. But Reggie len
Bias is dead and I was totally stunning. Uh. I
was present for Tony C getting hit I was behind
(28:39):
home plate at night. I had a box seat. In fact,
I got a foul ball in the first innings. It
turned out, but you know, that was a jarring thing,
you know, and and beginning, you know, his life was
never the same anyway. I was there for that Reggie
when Reggie's that's right there with me. The night Reggie collapse,
(29:00):
which was in the first quarter of the game against
Charlotte in Game one in nineteen eighty three, I was
sitting behind the basket and that night, not on the sideline,
first row, behind the basket, and ten people. All of
a sudden, there's nine people running up at the other
end of the court and one one sitting on the floor,
and it was Reggie Lewis with the look on his
(29:22):
face that I interpreted as what's happening? What has just
happened to me? And that's the image I have because
he was ten feet away from me when he collapsed,
from just where I was sitting ten or twelve feet away,
So that's always resonated. But Lenny Bias is running out
(29:42):
of the house when I found out that Reggie had died.
I was covering the Red Sox in Milwaukee. I remember
on a road trip in that summer. So, but those
two things, those two Reggie, I mean Tony c getting
hit in the face and October August eighth, nineteen sixty seven,
and and Reggie collapsing twelve feet in front of me,
(30:04):
and you know, leaving a path that led to eventually
to his death. And then then Len biased my son
running out of the house.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, okay, Uh, Dave, do you have some questions for
for Bob.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
I do to sort of extend beyond what we were
talking there about the impact within the Celtics community or
in Boston and comparing it with other events. There have
been references to Len's death being an extension of the
Curse of the Bambino. It's been written about whether that's
all just you know, hyper I like, I'd like you
(30:38):
to put that in perspective with with the with the
added context of I remember reading Bob Coosey being quoted, uh,
you know, fifteen years ago over the over the past
that he he equated it to the Curse of the Bambino.
And I talked to Bob about a month ago. I
got him on the phone and and not surprisingly, he
didn't remember saying it.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
You you've come to it somebody that though my good
friend Dan Shaughnessy has you know, lived off and profited
well from propagating the idea the myth of the curse
of the bambino. You know, I've never obviously, I don't
buy into it at all, utter nonsense, and so if
(31:19):
anybody equating it to something that is silly to start with,
is just waste of time. And the whole thing's all
concepted to me is a waste of time. By the way,
let me about the curse of the bambino. As all,
we got thirty seconds among us here. The first time
I heard about this concept was circa in nineteen ninety three.
I was it eighty three. I came one of the
threes done? You know, Henry hacked right, sure, sure, well.
(31:44):
Henry's a friend and Henry's roommate at Vanderbilt at the time.
It was at the time a minister where the congregation
and down and situate Mass two towns down, and Henry
was up visiting and we were we were visiting his
friend Darryl, and Daryl said dar was a big sports
(32:05):
fan's big big and said, you ever wear a curse
of bambino? He said no. He said, well, it's just
a theory that the sale of Babe Ruth to the
Yankees was an original sin from which there can be
no redemption. And the point is, no one knows where
it came from. That wasn't him. He was spouting off
(32:27):
something he had heard. No one has ever proven or
come up with the origin of it, the idea of it.
All right, I just tried to put out out there,
So don't let anybody take credit for it without some
kind of empirical proof that they actually got it in
print or somewhere before. Anyway, all right, answer to you're
don is now, screw that.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
The If you could talk a little bit more about
the immediate reaction of the three four, six months and
maybe the year that you saw on the Celtics, how
long is the reaction of his death lingered to where
it had any kind of effect or impact on the team.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Well, Red, as I recall, Red was quite vocal that
it had a long lasting effect. In his negative effect
on the team. Red thought it hurt. We thought that that,
you know, they would have been so well positioned to
prosper in the ensuing years better than they did. You know,
(33:24):
after they never that group. They never won until you know,
there was twenty more years, twenty two more years before
they won. They went back to the finals in eighty seven,
and of course this is what hurts. They were manpower shy.
If they had had a player of the equivalent that
we think that Reggie, that Lenbas would have been, I
think they would have had a very good chance of
(33:46):
beating the Lakers. They ran out of manpower. Mikhale was hurt.
Bird was always hurt by Mickael anyway, So I think
there was a lot of talk over the years that
you know, they could have used them. That's all the
kind of thing Red and I recall Red and might
be able to verify that for you, you know, if
you want to ask him specifically on a follow up.
But I have recalled that Red was pretty vocal that
(34:08):
he thought it was and had a negative effect for
upwards of a decade.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
How about from your perspective on the emotional side, how
long did you sense did players talk about it to
you or was it product? But I mean, I know
these guys are so focused on the moment when they're playing,
they're probably just thinking about But did it No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Know I don't think nobody knew him. It's not like
they never had a chance to forge even a one
day relationship. So I mean that's the difference. That's why
this is so it's such a bizarre you know, it's
such a one off story. You know, Reggie, this this
is one thing. You know, God, but what a player
who This whole scenario took unfolded in less than twenty
four hours from the draft, which is started at noon,
(34:48):
and so the pick was probably twelve twenty or twelve
fifteen until you know, the we went back home and
did what he did and the next morning we're talking
twenty hours, eighteen to twenty hours from the time he
was drafted to the time you know, or no less
than that by time it became common knowledge in the
(35:09):
mid morning of the day, after less than twenty four hours.
So I don't think there was any any emotional scarring
on the I think there was a professional, you know, regret,
but not an emotional scar Did.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
You see any heightened emotion Sadness maybe surprised was prevalent
within the Boston community and Celtic supporters right after he died.
Did you see any heightened emotion like we saw here
in the DC area that it was one of the
biggest stories in the DC era in decades. But I
mentioned until different for Boston. Did you see anything that
(35:44):
reflects that heightened emotion of Boston people.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I think were immediately aware that it was a much
bigger story in Washington than it could ever be have
been in Boston. It's a you know, it was a
great crew. I got janned to make the deal that
got in this pick, and now it's not going to materialize,
you know, that kind of technical you know, But I
don't think there was an emotional attachment. You know, if
(36:09):
we had a larger college basketball savvy audience here, you know,
maybe I could make a case for it, but we don't.
We didn't, then we still don't. This is not it's
almost a backworder of college you know, national college basketball
knowledge and interest. So most people, i'd say well over
half the Celtic fans maybe three quarters of them. All
(36:30):
they knew about len bias is what they were being told,
not that they could verify it, you know, because it's
not that we're not a hotbed, and we weren't. Then
you know, I was excited, boy, you know, I was
but but my little world. We were very excited. But
you know, people just knew they were getting a good player.
They didn't have a fuel for exactly the nature of
(36:51):
this of his skill and talent.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
You talked about the legacy of lend within the context
of Boston, what about a general legacy. Can you your
perspective on the general the most profound aspect of his
general legacy? And also do you see any positives coming
from this you made a reference to in these bias
and how much she's She's still out there by the
way speaking, it's amazing. That's I guess people can perceive
(37:17):
there as a positive. Jay Bill says there's no positive
to this story when we talk to him, there's nothing
positive about it. Do you have any any perspective about
a positive and then a general legacy?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Now, I don't know if there's I don't know. I'm
more inclined to agree with Jay other than whatever. You know,
good things that that Lenny's can bring to the table
for people. But you know, it's a sad story, you know,
rug you know people need to be preached to. Do
people need another somebody else preaching about the evils of
drug you know? And kind of thing. It's just say
(37:50):
because it was so weird, it would have been so different.
Well Reggie. You know the impact of Reggie is one
thing because people you know, had you know, had a
relationship with him, experience with him, but then had no
relationship with with len Bias. It was it was sad,
sad story and in abstract general terms for people, it
wasn't personal you know, Reggie. You could personalize Reggie, but
(38:13):
it was it was different. I don't think too many
people could. You know, maybe there was some local Maryland
the lums, but not to me of people could personalize
len Bias. It was it was the lost asset. I
hate to sound cold and cool. I just think that's
what it was. It was the lost asset. And anybody
who's remotely sensitive could appreciate the sadness of the story
of the young the athlete dying young kind of thing,
(38:35):
and then a little bit of anger if you want,
because you know it was avoidable naturally, you know, uh,
you didn't get hit by a car. You know, he
and justin you know, did whatever he did. And so
there's that.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I got one other question for you, okay, you know, uh,
ESPN did a three hour, remembering when biased package last summer. Oh,
it was the middle of the last dance. It was
on the middle of the week, one night. What what
is it about this story makes it still resonate thirty
(39:14):
five years, thirty six years later, thirty five years later.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Uh, it's it is unique. It's unique story. The idea
of as I said, this whole time thing played out
in less than twenty four hours, the drafting and then
the partying and the death less than twenty Give me
a where's the for Instance's whe's the other for instance
(39:39):
of this? I can't even imagine. I can't think of anything.
You know, we've read all kinds of different tragedies historically,
plane crashes, automobile crashes, you know, Stanley Ketchell shot, you know,
all kinds of stuff, But any wakers, right, you know
Ruth Steinhagen shot him. I mean you but this one, Yeah,
(40:00):
and you meet it hours after a draft, after he's
been white you know, he's been been showcased to the
Boston media and doing doing the rounds, and everybody's on
such a high. We're going to get this great talent
and boom stunning. There's nothing like it. Plus, I don't
know there's left. He figure into this partially because he
was left. He was he was left his coach and
(40:21):
left he with his coach. Probably uh maybe in the
whole acc being de glimber conference for basketball of them all,
you know, maybe you know, maybe as I said, i'm
I'm I'm aware that coach Case twice told me how
good he was. That's pretty high praise. I don't know,
but I just think you've got to say, it's just weird.
(40:43):
There's nothing to create it to that in terms of
the rapidity the time grame.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Led bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus Get it All from quick Lend.
Bias A Mixed Legacy is distributed by the eighth side
number
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Greatness
As the nineteen eighty six NBA Draft arrived, the Boston
Celtics had reclaimed their position as an NBA champion. They
won the title that year, it's third of the decade,
and Bob Ryan was in a prime position to chronicle
the team's successes. Ryan was a columnist for the Boston
Globe with a focus on the Celtics. Few journalists were
(00:25):
as dialed into the team at that time as Ryan.
This is Davon Grady, executive producer of the podcast series
Born Ready A Mixed Legacy, which is based on the
book I authored called Born Ready The Mixed Legacy of
len Bias. In this episode of the interviews, Ryan offers
his reflections of the nineteen eighty six draft, the one
(00:48):
that gave len bias to the Celtics, as it turned out,
all too briefly. He talks with podcast producer Don Marcus.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Now, you were were you the columnless at that point
and were you still covering the league and the team
at that point?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was covering the beat. I had gone back for
the third and would turn out to be a final
time in the February of that year, and it was
a chain of events that took place when Peter Gammans
left the Globe for the second and final time to
go to Sports Illustrated for the second and final time,
and Dan Shaughnessy had been covering the team after I
had given it up in nineteen eighty two, and he
(01:30):
immediately put his hand up for baseball. That was totally
was always his first love, right, and so he got
the baseball beat, and then long story short, after they
had interviewed a couple of other people. I was very
content doing what I was doing at that time, which
was basically being a basketball guy at large for college
and pro and writing columns along the way. I was
kind of a real big I was a utility man,
(01:52):
you know, but a happy one. And I finally accepted,
all right, I'll take it, I said, you know, And well,
that's when they were kicked in the eighty five eighty
six Celtics, That's when they were peaking. That's when they
were totally kicking ass every night, and it was the
greatest show on basketball Earth at the time, and I
(02:14):
fell into it and I got totally So anyway, I
went up doing for another tune that had rested that year.
In two more years, so yes, I was in fact,
the beat Man when when that draft was held?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What what do you what do you remember going into
the draft? Now they had just won the championship, so
there wasn't a whole lot of time after that.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well no, because to see, they didn't win in eighty five.
They lost it to the Lakers in eighty six. Oh,
in eighty six, Yeah, they went. They win the championship
and and have this bonus of the number two pick
in the draft thanks to this wonderful trade that Jan
Volk had worked with the Sonics way back when, which
traded and they traded Gerald Henderson for the Seattle number
(02:58):
one in eighty six. No one on either side, assuming
the Tonics were going to state bad enough that you'd
get a really prime pick, they would been very happy
with ten, eleven, twelve. Believe me, well, they're going to
have number two pick. And on top of being a champion.
It was it was a it was orgasmic, you know,
I'm telling you. If people were so excited, and of course,
(03:18):
you know, the big question was Daugherty or or Lenny.
I remember I was doing some radio as we all
were right now at the time, and we were interviewing
the coaches of the prospective draft picks for the Celtics,
Dana Kirk, because William Bedford was a possibility and among others.
(03:40):
And we interviewed Lefty and I'll never forget Lefty talking
about Lenny and these words have resonated in my head
for obviously the last thirty five years. Leonard's only vice
is ice cream and I'll never forget I'm saying that,
and you know, but yeah, so we talked to Lefty
about about Lenny.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, was we We talked to Pat Williams a couple
of weeks ago, and he told the story about Jack McMahon.
They didn't even they didn't even bring Bias in to
talk to him because McMahon said there's something about him
I don't like. And then they trade the pick, They
trade the pick Cleveland. Was there any talk about any
(04:24):
of this, you know, these machinations going on at the time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
I recall nothing of that sort. Okay, nothing that's news
to me. Yeah, because I love Jack and I would
respect anything that Jack had to say. Quite frankly, so
I don't know what, Yeah, what he had, Yeah, he
knew something nobody else knew. But I had not We
had heard nothing of that nature.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Now. Okay, So so the night of the Drafter, of
the day of the Drafter in New York, I'm in Boston. Oh,
you're in Boston, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I'm at the draft site, which was the at the Garden,
the old press room, and uh so, yeah, I'm at
the Garden for the draft.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, when they get by, and when when Doughty goes first,
Bias goes second. Was there a feeling that they got
you know, almost like in terms of when Jordan went
a couple of years before it, they actually got the
better pick.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
You know, first of all, I don't think enough who's
the they? First of all, who are the people were
talking about the media, I'm not even sure. I know
the fans didn't understand how good he was. I'm pretty
sure about that, and I don't know about the rest
of the media. I was fortunate in that I had
actually seen him play. I was actually there done the
night he drop forty on on Duke and Cameron told yeah,
(05:40):
I was there for I don't know what I was doing.
I don't know, but I was there and I remember
talking to Kay after him after it and so forth. Okay,
so I happened to be there that night, so it
was very fresh in my mind, but no people knew
it was really good. But yeah, I mean, I guess
in retrospect people were pretty excited about it, and so yeah, no,
(06:04):
like can I say.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, yeah, who did he did he remind you of anybody?
Was unique?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Because I think I've always it wasn't exactly the style
per se, but the level I thought he would attain.
And I've always used this analogy for the last thirty
five years. I don't think he was the super duper.
You know, he's not Maxic Michael Larry Lebron. He's worthy,
He's that level. He's a perennial All Star. He's going
(06:30):
to the Hall of Fame, but it's the next tier
of greatness, the second tier. Still a great and still
a Hall of Famer, and you know, and now, of course,
you know, the whole thing with the Celtics was he
was going to be for the twenty four hours or
less than eighteen hours, he was going to be the
bridge between the Big three and the next generation and
you know, ideal, incredible, How lucky can you get? Bird?
(06:53):
Apparently actually in that interim that very short period of time,
was excited. He knew something, he had seen it. He
was excited about I'm going to come to camp early
even you know, work with that kind of thing. So, uh,
you know, at least he knew or how he felt.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You when you say you didn't think he was of
the you know, in that in that pantheon? What what
what at that point and did you think he could
have you know, if if you know, if he had
exceeded those of your expectations.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Well, I mean the point is that you have your
own grade dation, right, and the Mount Olympus and the
people that are you know, on the waiting list for
Mount Olympus, and then you know, and at that point
in time, you know, the the reigning, the all time
great list of the unquestionable included the three centers naturally Russell,
(07:47):
Wilton and Commune uh Oscar and Jerry at that point
were still you know, and then the current guys at
the current guys at that time, you know, we're magic
Michael and well actually Michael yet Michael hadn't. This is
not Michael yet. It's Magic and Larry and Michael's knocking
on the door, which he did on that April twentieth
when he dropped the sixty three points. But but, but
Michael's knocking on the door. Okay, but no, just the
(08:09):
idea of of you have you exulted? I wasn't ready
to put him on the top of the list, but
I certainly thought he was going to be an It
was a dream picked to be an all Star. Let
me just say before I forget that twice subsequently and
over these years, Coach k has told me that the
two greatest opponents he ever faced were Michael and Lynn Bias.
(08:33):
And that's pretty high praise.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, where, uh, what do you remember about June nineteenth
and and and what and there you get your phone
call and what happened?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
We can back it up to the night of the draft.
The day of the draft, he comes to Bust for
the press randolais and I was on part of w
ee I Radio at the time, well you know, as
a contributor, and I was part of the interview process
for him. And I can still see him sitting across
(09:07):
from me and us in a gray suit with a
Selt the cat and his father, I believe, beaming behind him.
And I'll never forget, you know, the interviewed him and
then next thing you know. You know he went off
with wherever he went, you know, And here's my story.
Everybody's got a story. So the next day, I'm going
to say, somewhere between nine and ten in the morning,
(09:28):
I'm prepared to go to my office to do whatever
I was planning on writing that day. I was a
big office guy. A lot of call people weren't, but
I was. I love to go to the office. So
I am about to get in the car when my son,
who was then sixteen years old, came running out of
the house. Dad, Dad, lend Bias is dead? What okay?
(09:50):
And there it went. I said, well, I guess I'm
going to the art garden. I'm not going home to
the office. And that's it. That's how I found out.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And being in Boston, now I know people were down
in College Park and even people there didn't know for
you know, they said, heart attack.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well at what point.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Did you did you suspect did you think it could
be drugs or or I mean, it's so rare for
a guy that that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I honestly now, I'm not dodging here. I don't remember
the I have to go see what I wrote, even
which you know, I don't know what. I don't know
what I wrote, frankly, and and that day, I don't
know what speculation, you know, what level of speculation there
was in the first twenty four hours. I honestly do
not recall. I'm no good on this chronology at all whatsoever. Okay,
(10:36):
So I absoutely don't know. And now you've got to
be curious. When we're done here, I'm going to newspapers
dot com and I'm going to see what the hell
I wrote, because I don't know what I wrote right right, Well,
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
One of the things I wrote, I was I was
at I was in uh even though I was covering Maryland,
I was at the US Open at Shinnecock And as
that playing golf, came back to the in a place
where we were saying and it was on the news.
And but one of the things I wrote was that
the Celtics were not only a really good fit for
(11:09):
him from a basketball standpoint, because he didn't have to
be the star and for and jan Volt said the
other day, that's rare for a number two pick in
the draft not to have those huge expectations, but also
knowing his personality and knowing that he didn't really love
the media that he didn't he dealing with us at
(11:30):
least the one year I dealt with him at Maryland.
He wouldn't have had to deal with the media that
much in Boston because you had all these larger than
life guys with Larry at the top of the list
taking all the all the air you know, the airspace.
Would would that have helped him, you know, in terms
of not having to be the guy.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
If if that's your personality, absolutely yes, yeah, So others
might resent the fact that they were getting the attention
they thought they deserve. But if he felt that way
would have been ideal. It was it was so ideal
and thought theory now because so yeah, that's a good point,
and I I uh, I think that the suppositions correct.
That would because there's no question there was a pecking order,
(12:15):
you know, and and he would have been far down
the list. He got four Hall of Famers right off
the top of the bat, you know, and h Walton
went out five because Walton was still there, because his
contribution was over. He got hurt immediately in that next
season and was played ten games and retired. So that
was it. But they did, in fact up. As it
turns out, five Hall of famers in that team, and
(12:35):
and and Danny Ainge was pretty damn good, a fourteen
year player of consequence. So that was the roster. Yeah.
And Kyle Whitman no matter too, Ye all star.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
One of the things that Jan Volk said, one of
the things he liked about about Bias is that he
played mean. There was there was a there was an
attitude that he played with, an aggression that.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
He played with.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And he said that red love. I'm not sure if
the word was instigators or intimidators. And evedn't like guys
who just reacted to those guys, and that he thought
Jan votes that he thought Lend fit that mold. When
you saw him play, did you see that like you?
And when you put it together when he was drafted,
(13:20):
you said, you know, the guy has a great attitude,
the right sort of toughness to be to be a Celtic.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I don't think there's any question, you know, And my
memory was fresh because I had seen him get the
forty against Duke. Wasn't the first time and only time
I saw him in person, but obviously saw him a TV,
you know, over his career and it was very, very impressed.
Of course. Oh the idea that the team had just
won sixty seven games, had just gone through the to
(13:50):
the playoffs was one of the great one season teams
of all time. I still think as good as any
team that ever played was going to add a player
of this consequence was the lips were drooling, you know
how you know, I mean, people were just freaking out.
But then again, we're talking about twenty four hours, you know,
or less. But the idea of it was was tremendous.
(14:10):
And the good fortune and now here's the other thing.
He was viewed as the turnaround, good luck charm, you
know that they needed they get back on track. In
that regard, has turned out he started out to be
the beginning of the bad karma that lasted over twenty years.
You know, Reggie Lewis being another you know, terrible story,
(14:34):
terrible story. But anyway, it was, it was just so
too good to be true kind of thing. And I'm
the thing I've always wondered in retrospect is how Red
would have handled it. Sooner or later he would have
had to play more worthy, you know, and and you know,
what do they do? They're going to break up the
(14:54):
big You're not trade Larry's I forget that, you know,
that's never happening. Trade Kevin with that been you know,
as a bridge player to get you picks, and you know,
and and and then Lenny becomes the next the new
number two guy. Uh, we'll never know, but as a
total mood point, so you know. And as it turned out,
the Big three were never broken up. They just went expired,
(15:17):
you know, one by one they broke down they did.
Larry went first, and then like Kevin went, and then
Robert went and and that was it. And and theave
Gavin agonized over this when he was in charge what
to do, what to do, what to do? And he
didn't do anything, and it just deteriorated.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, was was Bias's death the you know, sort of
the the sort of the beginning of that demise or
did it really take for what you said happened with
these guys breaking down? And then also obviously the tragedy
with Beggie Lewis to sort of that was that was
really what what Catapault died the you know.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yeah, I mean you date it with with Bias and
and then you throw in that having u the thought
that fifty and fifteen games, you know, back in the
one year, and they don't get the number one pick,
you know, they get three and six. It turns out
to be Chauncy Phillips who Patino gave up one too
soon and Ryan Mercer who didn't make it. And anyway,
(16:13):
and there are a lot of what was us going
on from nineteen for that date in eighty seven on
eighty six excuse me, until Danny made the trade and
you know for Allen and then here come in Garnett
and put that team together twenty years later, twenty years
later that did win the championship.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, I had a prominent former Maryland player tell me
he wondered if Bias was as as as Dave has
written in his book, more than just a one time
You know, this wasn't a one time dealer. You know,
he he used he used cocaine before this, and this
time they killed him. Given the culture of the NBA
(16:56):
then and how prevalent you know, cocaine used was in
society and in sports, do you think that there was
a danger of a with any players. I mean, you
look at David Thompson's career, you look at John Lucas
that that that was that that that might have been
the thing that held not only you know, these got
(17:17):
those guys back from being all time greats, but but
anybody and and when you have a guy like Bias,
this could have just you know, it could have. It
could have been this was an ultimate tragedy, but it
could have also with the prevalence of cocaine, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
It was, it was.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
It was a tough road for some of these young
guys to navigate.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I've always found it difficult to believe it was a
one time deal. I've always fo That's all I can say.
Find it very difficult to believe. It just sounds very
naive to me to think that this was just an
experiment going wrong. Okay, I can't disagree with the premise
that this if this if he did have a liking,
I will say I have it, but a liking and
(18:01):
a proclivity and a and an interest in it at all.
This was the wrong per time in history, that's for sure,
because that's exactly there were lots of stories of that
the NBA was was going through a very bad period
at that time. It was a dark dark age in
that regard, and John Lucas you mentioned like God, I
lived through that, and Uh, to me, he was always
(18:21):
a symbol how powerful the drug is when a man
that intelligent, that aware. Uh, it was seemed to be
powerless to the drug at the time. Uh, you know
without that that God impressed me, you know me, that
scared me and drove home, drove home to me. How
how powerful it could be? Oh, I don't know. Yeah,
I think it's conceivable. I mean, but again, rampant speculation,
(18:42):
just on my rampant speculation as to what would have
had to answer it happened, what happened with the Celtics
over a three or four or five year period, if
he had as he had matured as a player, how
they would have had handled it. But I'm going to
assume he would have had to feel that he needed
to play more and deserve to play more than he
was going to play as a rookie. And and but
you know, and all this is speculation. That's what we're
(19:03):
left with.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You do you think he would have if he if
he had lived up to his the talent that you saw,
he would have because of who he was playing with,
where he was playing, and and sort of the league
as a way to create these rivalries, whether they're natural
or not natural. He would have been pushed out there
as as the rival to Michael Jordan and given given
(19:26):
the fact that they had it similar to their history
in the ACC.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I don't well, it might have been more external. I
don't think it would have been internal. I don't think
the Celtics were into that kind of thing necessarily. I
don't must they are different. There were different players. I
mean when when when when coach k told me that,
I thought of it. I started thinking about the nature
of their games and he was saying, these are the
greatest opponents. He didn't say they were similar because they
weren't necessarily know and he was I don't think him
(19:54):
in the same terms as Michael at all. Uh you
know Michael and Kobe. Yeah, you think of them and
and that skill set. I don't see his skills. That's
why I mentioned Worthy. I think it's a I think
Worthy is a as good a comparison as I've ever
come up with as to uh everything about him, and
uh you know, maybe Worthy it was a little bit
quicker up down the floor, but he was stronger, I think,
and inside there would have been there would have been
(20:14):
a trade off there, but he certainly could get up
and down the floor. But but I just think that
that's the level I'm talking about, And I don't think
the Celtics would have been actively promoting you know that.
Uh once again, I don't that. I don't recall any
instances where they really indulge in that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Even with Larry and Bird that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Was no, that was all. No, no, really, it was
as external the world at large saw it that way.
And and and Larry and Magic didn't shy away from
the fact that they respect it before they got to
know each other, which didn't happen till eighty five, when
it was merely a rival, a professional rivalry. They were
always complementary of each other's games and not afraid to
(20:55):
say that. So they were, you know, and a while
and you know, Magic told me when I did a story,
uh for Sports Illustrated once on them that you know,
he would in fact circle the calendar, you know, when
the schedule came out, you know, and you know, he
looked forward. And both of them admitted that they watched
the box scores and if one got a triple double,
(21:16):
the other one, you know, uh, maybe tonight you know,
I got to get one. It was a friendly, but
it was never angry or bitter. It was totally based
on mutual respect and the feeling that that the the
other guy saw the game the way he did, and
and and and respected the game the way he did.
That's what they liked about each other.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
When Biased died, do you did you think that the
did it impact the NBA in terms of the their
awareness of of of players that in terms of drug use,
in terms of doing investigations into players, more, more homework,
you know, more background checks or was it just a
one off that this guy died and and that.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Was and a uh star Cross draft in general, right,
And I think it bottomed out there, but it didn't didn't. Uh,
it's not like everybody had an epiphany. Uh what year
was Tarpley? Same year year was? The year it was
(22:20):
Chris Chris Chris, Chris Washburn, Oh my god, Chris Washburn.
You know, what a what a what a what a
star Cross bunch? That was everybody but the man at
the top, who you know, Brad Fay, clear of all
as far as I know, right right, But yeah, I
don't think there was an epiphany yet. I think but
it certainly was the It didn't never never got any
(22:41):
worse than that crop, I don't think for for a
draft class. But it didn't end until you know, the
lake damage didn't improve at all until until we got
Michael really became, you know, more and more the focus
in the late nine eighties, and and uh and and
that and so that's what I have to say. It
(23:03):
was a dark period. It was a bad period.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Did the Celtic fans how did they react to to
bias his death was? Did they view it as a tragedy?
Did they Were they angry that, you know, this great
guy did something.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Really I can't I would think they would proportionately dine
It were more of a feeling of what a waste
and how horrible this is the young you know, the
the the a house of the athlete, dying young thing,
you know, more than anything, I don't think. I don't
think too many people are thanks a lot, you screwed
(23:39):
us now you know we were gonna you were going
to be our bridge and you're not here. I don't
think there was much of that. I think it was
just the shock and tragedy and feeling, you know, plus
right away his mom was out out front in the public,
you know, and and uh, you know you so you know,
you focus your your your your thoughts and energy on
her loss. And so fourth, so that was part of
(24:01):
the two because she was very, very definitely prominent, prominent
from the beginning. M h.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
In terms of when when I remember running up to Boston,
when you know, flying up there, when we heard that
because he was from Baltimore, that Reggie Lewis had collapsed,
and and then by the time I landed at Logan
he was dead. And then being there that whole week
and then for the for the for the memorial service
(24:27):
at Northeastern and everything.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Was there.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I can't remember was there much talk about by it.
Were the two tragedies intertwined for for years or were
they separate because Reggie Lewis was the captain of the
team when he died. Bias was a draft.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
It was bias. It was bias. We hardly knew you,
We didn't know you. And Reggie Lewis was had become
uh you know by the time he died, was was
the best player on the team. Larry was, you know,
about a point going, and Kevin was in this last
year and and and Robert was getting older. Read Reggie
the reigning all start to tell you know, you know,
he was their new best player.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And plus he had the background of Northeastern and and
so he had people were familiar with him that for
uh near up almost a decade, and it hit home,
you know, tremendously, tremendously, But it was hard. I don't
remember exactly how much linkage. If the linkage was more
woe was us? You know, the Celtics. What do we
do to deserve this kind of thing as a you know,
(25:26):
the Celtics. Uh, but certainly Reggie's was a major Sorry,
Reggie was a big star for the younger, younger fans
particularly I'll never forget you. You mentioned that day and
and the the the mix of humanity that lined the streets,
and and it went to that service.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You know, he had touched an awful broad swath of
the Boston community public. Reggie had and you know he
because up to that point, there was never anything to
worry about with Reggie, you know, until the collapse to
you know, he had things. He had a turkey giveaway
of Thanksgiving. He was he was a soft spoken, not boastful,
(26:07):
you know, he was an exemplary, you know, a representative
for your team, et cetera. You know, he was beloved,
he really was, and so that we were that would
a hit Hoard.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
One of the things that Dave wrote about now we've
we've learned even more since we started doing this, is
that how politicians used bias his death to sort of
enact tougher drug laws with the nineteen eighty six Anthey
Drug Abuse Act, and in one of those I think
(26:40):
Tip O'Neil was one of those obviously influential people in Washington.
Was there any talk up there in Boston? Do you
remember anything about Bias his name coming up with struggles?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah? Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Does Bias have a legacy in Boston or because he
never played for the Celtics there, there is no legacy.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
No, I mean, it's it's it's a known I'd love
to know, for example, if you if you interviewed the
average twenty five year old Celtic fan, now whether he
or she how much they know at all about it.
I'd be curious. I you know, it's a it's part
of his it's a history thing. Yeah, it's not real,
(27:27):
you know, it doesn't resonate to the younger people. Now,
I don't think at all in anyway. So the answer
is no. And maybe if he had played a year
and teased everybody what how good he was and then
it happened, you know, But but since he never played
a second, since Celtic career was less than twenty four
hours total. I you know, I don't think it's there's
a residence for all the for anybody who wasn't there.
(27:50):
And you know I was there, and and you know,
I'll never forget my son running out of the house
a moment, you know, and and it was it was
it was a stunning stunning was it?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I mean given everything you've covered, every every event, every athlete,
I mean, was it among the most shocking things? I mean,
do you have clear memories of that as people have
they were with a Kennedy assassination?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Well, yeah, we know, I just told you. Yeah. For me,
in the moment is how I found out was my
son drive running out of the ass and having heard
it on the radio or seen it on to you,
I don't know which way it was. But Reggie len
Bias is dead and I was totally stunning. Uh. I
was present for Tony C getting hit I was behind
(28:39):
home plate at night. I had a box seat. In fact,
I got a foul ball in the first innings. It
turned out, but you know, that was a jarring thing,
you know, and and beginning, you know, his life was
never the same anyway. I was there for that Reggie
when Reggie's that's right there with me. The night Reggie collapse,
(29:00):
which was in the first quarter of the game against
Charlotte in Game one in nineteen eighty three, I was
sitting behind the basket and that night, not on the sideline,
first row, behind the basket, and ten people. All of
a sudden, there's nine people running up at the other
end of the court and one one sitting on the floor,
and it was Reggie Lewis with the look on his
(29:22):
face that I interpreted as what's happening? What has just
happened to me? And that's the image I have because
he was ten feet away from me when he collapsed,
from just where I was sitting ten or twelve feet away,
So that's always resonated. But Lenny Bias is running out
(29:42):
of the house when I found out that Reggie had died.
I was covering the Red Sox in Milwaukee. I remember
on a road trip in that summer. So, but those
two things, those two Reggie, I mean Tony c getting
hit in the face and October August eighth, nineteen sixty seven,
and and Reggie collapsing twelve feet in front of me,
(30:04):
and you know, leaving a path that led to eventually
to his death. And then then Len biased my son
running out of the house.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, okay, Uh, Dave, do you have some questions for
for Bob.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
I do to sort of extend beyond what we were
talking there about the impact within the Celtics community or
in Boston and comparing it with other events. There have
been references to Len's death being an extension of the
Curse of the Bambino. It's been written about whether that's
all just you know, hyper I like, I'd like you
(30:38):
to put that in perspective with with the with the
added context of I remember reading Bob Coosey being quoted, uh,
you know, fifteen years ago over the over the past
that he he equated it to the Curse of the Bambino.
And I talked to Bob about a month ago. I
got him on the phone and and not surprisingly, he
didn't remember saying it.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
You you've come to it somebody that though my good
friend Dan Shaughnessy has you know, lived off and profited
well from propagating the idea the myth of the curse
of the bambino. You know, I've never obviously, I don't
buy into it at all, utter nonsense, and so if
(31:19):
anybody equating it to something that is silly to start with,
is just waste of time. And the whole thing's all
concepted to me is a waste of time. By the way,
let me about the curse of the bambino. As all,
we got thirty seconds among us here. The first time
I heard about this concept was circa in nineteen ninety three.
I was it eighty three. I came one of the
threes done? You know, Henry hacked right, sure, sure, well.
(31:44):
Henry's a friend and Henry's roommate at Vanderbilt at the time.
It was at the time a minister where the congregation
and down and situate Mass two towns down, and Henry
was up visiting and we were we were visiting his
friend Darryl, and Daryl said dar was a big sports
(32:05):
fan's big big and said, you ever wear a curse
of bambino? He said no. He said, well, it's just
a theory that the sale of Babe Ruth to the
Yankees was an original sin from which there can be
no redemption. And the point is, no one knows where
it came from. That wasn't him. He was spouting off
(32:27):
something he had heard. No one has ever proven or
come up with the origin of it, the idea of it.
All right, I just tried to put out out there,
So don't let anybody take credit for it without some
kind of empirical proof that they actually got it in
print or somewhere before. Anyway, all right, answer to you're
don is now, screw that.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
The If you could talk a little bit more about
the immediate reaction of the three four, six months and
maybe the year that you saw on the Celtics, how
long is the reaction of his death lingered to where
it had any kind of effect or impact on the team.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Well, Red, as I recall, Red was quite vocal that
it had a long lasting effect. In his negative effect
on the team. Red thought it hurt. We thought that that,
you know, they would have been so well positioned to
prosper in the ensuing years better than they did. You know,
(33:24):
after they never that group. They never won until you know,
there was twenty more years, twenty two more years before
they won. They went back to the finals in eighty seven,
and of course this is what hurts. They were manpower shy.
If they had had a player of the equivalent that
we think that Reggie, that Lenbas would have been, I
think they would have had a very good chance of
(33:46):
beating the Lakers. They ran out of manpower. Mikhale was hurt.
Bird was always hurt by Mickael anyway, So I think
there was a lot of talk over the years that
you know, they could have used them. That's all the
kind of thing Red and I recall Red and might
be able to verify that for you, you know, if
you want to ask him specifically on a follow up.
But I have recalled that Red was pretty vocal that
(34:08):
he thought it was and had a negative effect for
upwards of a decade.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
How about from your perspective on the emotional side, how
long did you sense did players talk about it to
you or was it product? But I mean, I know
these guys are so focused on the moment when they're playing,
they're probably just thinking about But did it No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Know I don't think nobody knew him. It's not like
they never had a chance to forge even a one
day relationship. So I mean that's the difference. That's why
this is so it's such a bizarre you know, it's
such a one off story. You know, Reggie, this this
is one thing. You know, God, but what a player
who This whole scenario took unfolded in less than twenty
four hours from the draft, which is started at noon,
(34:48):
and so the pick was probably twelve twenty or twelve
fifteen until you know, the we went back home and
did what he did and the next morning we're talking
twenty hours, eighteen to twenty hours from the time he
was drafted to the time you know, or no less
than that by time it became common knowledge in the
(35:09):
mid morning of the day, after less than twenty four hours.
So I don't think there was any any emotional scarring
on the I think there was a professional, you know, regret,
but not an emotional scar Did.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
You see any heightened emotion Sadness maybe surprised was prevalent
within the Boston community and Celtic supporters right after he died.
Did you see any heightened emotion like we saw here
in the DC area that it was one of the
biggest stories in the DC era in decades. But I
mentioned until different for Boston. Did you see anything that
(35:44):
reflects that heightened emotion of Boston people.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I think were immediately aware that it was a much
bigger story in Washington than it could ever be have
been in Boston. It's a you know, it was a
great crew. I got janned to make the deal that
got in this pick, and now it's not going to materialize,
you know, that kind of technical you know, But I
don't think there was an emotional attachment. You know, if
(36:09):
we had a larger college basketball savvy audience here, you know,
maybe I could make a case for it, but we don't.
We didn't, then we still don't. This is not it's
almost a backworder of college you know, national college basketball
knowledge and interest. So most people, i'd say well over
half the Celtic fans maybe three quarters of them. All
(36:30):
they knew about len bias is what they were being told,
not that they could verify it, you know, because it's
not that we're not a hotbed, and we weren't. Then
you know, I was excited, boy, you know, I was
but but my little world. We were very excited. But
you know, people just knew they were getting a good player.
They didn't have a fuel for exactly the nature of
(36:51):
this of his skill and talent.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
You talked about the legacy of lend within the context
of Boston, what about a general legacy. Can you your
perspective on the general the most profound aspect of his
general legacy? And also do you see any positives coming
from this you made a reference to in these bias
and how much she's She's still out there by the
way speaking, it's amazing. That's I guess people can perceive
(37:17):
there as a positive. Jay Bill says there's no positive
to this story when we talk to him, there's nothing
positive about it. Do you have any any perspective about
a positive and then a general legacy?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Now, I don't know if there's I don't know. I'm
more inclined to agree with Jay other than whatever. You know,
good things that that Lenny's can bring to the table
for people. But you know, it's a sad story, you know,
rug you know people need to be preached to. Do
people need another somebody else preaching about the evils of
drug you know? And kind of thing. It's just say
(37:50):
because it was so weird, it would have been so different.
Well Reggie. You know the impact of Reggie is one
thing because people you know, had you know, had a
relationship with him, experience with him, but then had no
relationship with with len Bias. It was it was sad,
sad story and in abstract general terms for people, it
wasn't personal you know, Reggie. You could personalize Reggie, but
(38:13):
it was it was different. I don't think too many
people could. You know, maybe there was some local Maryland
the lums, but not to me of people could personalize
len Bias. It was it was the lost asset. I
hate to sound cold and cool. I just think that's
what it was. It was the lost asset. And anybody
who's remotely sensitive could appreciate the sadness of the story
of the young the athlete dying young kind of thing,
(38:35):
and then a little bit of anger if you want,
because you know it was avoidable naturally, you know, uh,
you didn't get hit by a car. You know, he
and justin you know, did whatever he did. And so
there's that.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I got one other question for you, okay, you know, uh,
ESPN did a three hour, remembering when biased package last summer. Oh,
it was the middle of the last dance. It was
on the middle of the week, one night. What what
is it about this story makes it still resonate thirty
(39:14):
five years, thirty six years later, thirty five years later.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Uh, it's it is unique. It's unique story. The idea
of as I said, this whole time thing played out
in less than twenty four hours, the drafting and then
the partying and the death less than twenty Give me
a where's the for Instance's whe's the other for instance
(39:39):
of this? I can't even imagine. I can't think of anything.
You know, we've read all kinds of different tragedies historically,
plane crashes, automobile crashes, you know, Stanley Ketchell shot, you know,
all kinds of stuff, But any wakers, right, you know
Ruth Steinhagen shot him. I mean you but this one, Yeah,
(40:00):
and you meet it hours after a draft, after he's
been white you know, he's been been showcased to the
Boston media and doing doing the rounds, and everybody's on
such a high. We're going to get this great talent
and boom stunning. There's nothing like it. Plus, I don't
know there's left. He figure into this partially because he
was left. He was he was left his coach and
(40:21):
left he with his coach. Probably uh maybe in the
whole acc being de glimber conference for basketball of them all,
you know, maybe you know, maybe as I said, i'm
I'm I'm aware that coach Case twice told me how
good he was. That's pretty high praise. I don't know,
but I just think you've got to say, it's just weird.
(40:43):
There's nothing to create it to that in terms of
the rapidity the time grame.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Led bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus Get it All from quick Lend.
Bias A Mixed Legacy is distributed by the eighth side
number
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Greatness
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