A High Ratio of Predators with Katie Couric

Chelsea is joined by none other than Katie Couric to discuss falling in love again after loss, Katie’s cancer diagnosis, and how to survive a dinner almost entirely attended by sexual predators. Then: An oldest sister is unsure what to say as her younger sister nears the end of her life.  And a wife finds out that her addict husband has been having an affair with a younger woman.

Books in this episode:

Going There by Katie Couric

Many Lives, Many Masters

Letting Go

It’s Called a Breakup Because it’s Broken 

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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail]

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Produced by Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert

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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Catherine, Oh hi Chelsea, yea, Hi. Guess where it's
snowed twenty inches last night? Oh my gosh, does have
been Whistler Orca? Oh no, no, are you serious? Twenty
foot waves? They have what are they called manholes? Or
what are those called when they're in the streets cave in?
Is that called a manhole? I mean the island is

(00:21):
not prepared for snow. Maybe in the mountains. Its twenty
inches of snow, and so every day told everyone to
stay in, don't go outside. It was on the Daily Mail.
It popped up on my Instagram this morning. And not
that I read the Daily Mail because I don't. But
we don't want us brother that, no, we don't. But
my Orca, I think, just comes to me. You know,

(00:42):
since our phones are all eavesdropping on me, can you
believe that it is snowing. I'm in Whistler right now
and it is snowing. Well, it's snowed last week in
Los Angeles, in my backyard. So that's the world is
over everyone. So we're just going to end this podcast
right now because everyone should just take shelter. Good Bye.
Hope you have enough owning Barrico to get you through.
Oh my god, that's insane, I know, and I've heard

(01:05):
LA is just the worst right now. Oh my god,
it's been like pouring rain. My puppies have been like
trying to potty train them. They're like, there's nowhere to go.
It's flooded. So it's been interesting. I saw some kids
surfing down the street in a Tuckerware bucket the other day.
There was like the rivers going down the street and
the gutters, and then there was a kid pulling another

(01:27):
kid on a mini bike and the other kid was
in like a Tuckerware tub and they were just zooming
down the street. So that's that's the state of affairs
right now. Listen. If you can't have a little fun
and a Tuckerware tub, where can you find it. We
went night skiing the other night after my birthday. We
all decided it was snowing, snowing. It snowed like twenty
centimeters whatever that means in America, and we were like

(01:48):
all together, we went to apray and then everyone's like,
let's go up to the top of the parking lots
and have someone drop us off and then we could
just ski down at night because it was all fresh
and so like. Ten of us did it. It It was
so much fun. Oh my god, it's nothing better than
being in the snow at night. I don't know why.
It's so beautiful the best. It is so beautiful. And
I also had a great birthday this year. Again. I

(02:12):
love celebrating my birthday and Whistler. It's got all my ingredients, skiing,
capre skiing, Margarita's skiing, other Margarita's. Oh when I had
my niece Charlie up here, who is a dream boat,
such guy. She's ridiculous. She is just so cute and funny,
and we skied. We should. We had her charging by

(02:33):
the end of the week, and well she was here
for like four days a solo. And then my friend Nick,
who is my director on Chelsea Does, she was my DP.
She came up and it was just so fun. I
love I love having one on one time with my
nieces and nephews. It's the best. I got shot down
by a niece this week. Rejection from children is fierce.
I know teenagers are trouble. Another reason not to have them,

(02:56):
you know exactly exactly. It's like, if they're tiny, they're pooping,
if they're three, they're mean to you, right, terrible twos,
terrible threes, and then they turn into teenagers immediately after that,
but no one tells you. They starts smelling at like
eight smelling. Yeah, they start smelling bad at like eight.
Well the boys, oh really, girls start smelling really I

(03:20):
think girls start getting stuck. Oh oh, like tricky situation.
I speaking of smelly. I went three days without taking
a shower and skiing while I was up here because
we had such a full house and it was NonStop action.
And finally, like yesterday or the day before, everyone left
and we went skiing again. I was like okay, And

(03:40):
then I was like, okay, guys, I'm going home after
skiing today, like no Appray, Like I'm wrecked for my birthday.
I'm so tired. My body's aching. We had a huge
powder day, so my thighs were burning. Yeah, and then
of course, you know, they persuaded me to go to Appray.
Twist my cut to one in the morning, I'm getting
opped off at my house and we had adopted a

(04:02):
giant baby, my friend Kelly and I her friend. We've
decided he was our baby and he had to come
sleep in one of our extra guest rooms, and I
was like, wait, what happened. It's like the whole day
got away from me. That's how it goes. I know's
how one drink so yesterday. So I'm hibernating this week
until my next batch of visitors come, which is Friday.

(04:22):
And then we got you out of bed at seven
in the morning. That's okay. I you know, I get
up early anyway. I'm always up. Okay. So our guest
today has a book out that you may have read.
It's called Going There. Her daily newsletter is called wake
Up Call. I get that every morning. It's a mix
of news, culture and advice. She's the EP which is
an executive producer of the new documentary No Ordinary Campaign,

(04:43):
which is debuting at south By Southwest, and she is
host of her podcast which is called Next Question. Please
Welcome Katie Kirk. I Katie, what are you doing on
the floor? Oh? Because we don't have a place to
do this, so I'm just going to sit on the
floor and honestly, it'll be fine, it will be comfortable.
What are you two girls up to that you have

(05:06):
that you're both sleeping in the same room and have
nowhere else to record she's not sleeping in here, she's
sleeping in the guest room. But we're in this big
kind of echoe house and we thought this would be
the best room. Is it? Is it? Okay? Yeah? Well
that horrors there. It looks so weird, Atrianna, but I
think it's a good look for you, Katie. It'll switch

(05:26):
things up. People will be surprised by the way. My
dad would say, it looks like I combed my hair
with an egg beater. Hi, Hi, Hi, This is Katherine,
my producer. I know Catherine. Hi, Catherine Hike. Oh, yes,
you guys know each other because she's gonna be working
with you now. She's gonna be helping us, which is

(05:47):
also she's so great in my yelling. Oh sorry, I'm yelling.
I'm yellow. Oh that's nice that you have someone who
will tell you that. Oh my god, Katie, where did
we start? Let's figure this out. How did we first meet?
Was it an interview? I think it might have been
an interview. I'm trying to remember when I took you
to the White House Scorres Fund It's oh yeah, it

(06:07):
was really that was our first date. It was and
I think I just reached out to you because I
thought you were fun and funny and that you would
get a kick out of going to the White House
Scorres fund It's dinner, which we did. We got a
big kick out of it. That was a fun night.
Remember we ended up in a car with two real randoms.
I don't even remember. I remember who Do you remember

(06:29):
who they were? I don't remember. The whole thing is
a little bit of a blur to me, but I
remember it was cute, Chelsea, because you were very nervous.
Do you remember that? No, no, no, no, tell me,
you were kind of I think you felt out of
your element and you had never been to something like
that and you were just a little a little jittery.

(06:51):
And it was really sweet. And who else came that year?
Was that the year Betty White came? And she was
also my guest? Oh yeah, yeah, we all sat at
the same table. Yeah, so I felt like I had
the coolest table in the room. That's a cool event, actually,
the White House Correspondence Center. It's really really like a fun,

(07:13):
fun night because it's not a lot of Republicans go,
if any, and so that's always a win. Well, that
was sort of back in the day. It was pretty bipartisan, honestly,
and I think when Trump became president, I think they
stopped having them. Then there was the pandemic, and so
it used to be a really kind of jocular bipartisan affair,

(07:36):
and it was really fun because the president hits up
and makes a really funny speech and it was a
lot of fun. And then I think we went to
the party. Did we go to the party at the
French embassy that Bloomberg usually hosted or yes, yes, yes,
that's where we went. I remember us being in a
car with someone really really famous, like a famous director

(07:57):
or somebody I can't even remember. Yeah, I can't remember
for either who was that? And then I looked to
my left and it was another random and I've just
thought this is one of those nights. But we had
a couple of those nights because we had our Woody
Allen Knight, which we've both talked about, where we accidentally
had dinner with Woody Allen and SUNI and some other unmentionables.
Should we retell that story because or do you feel

(08:19):
like everybody's heard it? I know you put it in
your comedy routine. I think everybody has heard it, But
I mean there's no well you know what you tell it,
because I haven't heard you tell it. I've accepted the
book of course. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I was working
at CBS News. It was I believe was it January
or February or something like that. In the winter, Chelsea,

(08:40):
You and I had made plans to have dinner, which
I was really looking forward to. I got an email
from Peggy Siegel, who was this sort of big publicist
who's kind of fallen from grace now, and she said,
would you like to have dinner at the largest single
family home in Manhattan? And I was like, well that
sounds in preaking, you know, be interesting to see some big,

(09:02):
beautiful home where people usually live in pretty small apartments
in New York City. So I said, okay, great, and
she said it's going to be honoring Prince Andrew. George
Stephanopolis is going to be there, and she mentioned some
other newspeople and I thought, oh boy. Well, the royal
wedding was coming up that spring and William and Kate

(09:23):
were getting married, and I thought, you know, any end
to a member of the royal family is a good inn.
Well that turns out all that's what that's what she said.
But anyway, so I thought, gosh, I should probably go
to this, and I called you and I said, Chelsea,
I've just been invited to this dinner. Do you want

(09:44):
to go? It sounds like it might be interesting. It's
for Prince Andrew. I don't know if I even mentioned
that when I called you. I think I must have,
and I said do you want to go? And you
were like, sure, why not? So I was dating someone
at the time, so he came to it turns out,
and I googled him as I almost got there. I
think I met you there, but I remember googling Jeffrey

(10:04):
Epstein and thinking, oh, well, he was convicted of something
in Florida. It sounded sleazy, but it didn't sound horrible
and criminal and disgusting as now we know his behavior was.
So I thought, oh, this is pretty sketchy, but I
guess I'm in now. And so we walked in and

(10:25):
there was this whole assortment of people, including George Stephanopolis
I believe Charlie Rose was there, and yes, Woody Allen
and Sunny and it was probably about what would you say, Chelsea,
like twenty four people. Oh, I remember it being so
much smaller. But you know, my memory is not great
because I didn't even remember that you brought a date.
So really, yeah, it was it John, No, it was Brooks,

(10:48):
the good young guy I was dating. Okay, Okay, So no,
I thought it was a small party, like eight or
ten people. No, No, No, well, I think actually it's
probably somewhere between ten and twenty four. I think I
own remember the key players, is why I remember bring it.
I remember Charlie Rose walking out, just shitfaced, leaving his coat,

(11:08):
and then coming back an hour later, because you and
I were leaving, and apparently Brooks we were leaving, and
then he came back and he was kind of like
walking down the street, very disoriented, and he was like,
I'm looking for my coat. I'm looking. I'm like, oh,
I had no idea. So many people were such a
hot mess, you know. I like Charlie Rose acts like
this at that time. He was a respectable newsman too,

(11:31):
So I remember that much from the night. But I
remember kind of sitting in I almost think like a
horseshoe shaped table situation, maybe in the living room. And
I titled that chapter of my book Lasagna Was Served,
because they served lasagna in these sort of shallow bulls.
And then before that he'd kind of given us a

(11:51):
tour of the house, and I remember he had those
stubbs and wooten velvet slippers on and torn jeans and
like a velvet maybe a velvet blazer, and he was
holding a drink. And I really didn't know very much
about him. I remember the artwork being were weird. But
after dinner, that's when you went up to Woody Allen.
I was at the end of dinner because I remember

(12:12):
the living are. We were all seated because I kept
from seeing all these people walk in. You know, when
I saw Woody Allen and SUNI walk in, I remember going, whoa, whoa, whoa,
what is this? And then I didn't obviously know Jeffrey
either Epstein. I knew Prince Andrew. I know who Peggy
Siegel is, yeah, and I don't remember him being there
at all. George, No, Charlie Rose is the other person

(12:35):
I remember, and then I feel like there was one other.
But I know when you just said that, I was like,
oh he was there. Yeah, Well that's great to know.
Good information. What a high ratio of predators, though, I
know when I look back I'm like, oh my god.
Almost every person in that room was canceled. Yeah, it
felt like the den of an equity or something. But
after dinner, Chelsea, everyone was sort of sitting around, and

(12:58):
I remember seeing a friend of mine who's a doctor
who knew Jeffrey Epstein talking to him and a female doctor,
really beautiful woman. And then Chelsea walks up to Woody
Allen and Sunny and I don't think I heard you
say it. You just told me later and said, I
you know, I'm Chelsea Handler. And you started chit chatting

(13:21):
and you said, how did you two meet? Now you
knew how they met? Right, you were just well, of
course I was giving it to him. But it was
at dinner when we were getting dessert. We were seated
at the table because I was seated right across from them,
and I was next to you. You were on my right,
and they were across from me, And the whole time
at dinner, all I was waiting was to say something
to him, because as a woman, I was like, there's

(13:42):
no way that I'm not going to say something to
him to make him know that he's out completely out
of line. But you did hear me, because you said, Okay, Chelsea,
time to go. Katie mentioned that this happened. I was like, wait,
that was real. She really said that. It wasn't just
a bit. I just figured it was like a bit.
Oh No, that part I remember perfectly because because I

(14:06):
had to contain myself for so long throughout the dinner
to not embarrass everybody, you know what I mean as
a guest, I was like, how do I play this?
And I remember because I was talking to Woody Allen
during the dinner trying to be friendly, and we were
talking about stand up and movies and all of it.
And I was like, oh. And then I was like,
don't don't do this. Don't get sucked in and think

(14:26):
that you like somebody. You don't like this person, you
don't like them. I had to have this internal dialogue
with myself the whole time. Yeah, and I was definitely
tipsy because I'm me one weird. Thing I remember is
when we left, Brooks looked at me and said, did
you notice how young the girls were who were taking
our coats? Oh? God, so he noticed, well he did,

(14:51):
and he mentioned it to me. So now, in hindsight,
that's a very perceptive and really upsetting comment m. Yeah, yeah,
and we've been through We've hung out a lot of
times because we had boyfriends that both had places, right,
we were both spending time in Shelter Island for a while.
You were about to get married, and I've met your daughters,

(15:11):
who you know are fabulous and so yeah, we've known
each other for many, many years. Yeah, and of course
I follow you from Afar and love watching you not
only with your Santa, but I'm obsessed with your Instagram.
So I enjoyed watching you skiing and your bikini recently.
You're a good skier, Chelsea. Oh thanks, I've been you

(15:32):
know what, Katie, I've been working so hard at becoming
a good skier. It was like my dream as a
little kid. I was like, I just want to be
a great skier. Well, you have very good form in
every way, but I you know, when did you start?
Because I started skiing at forty five. I'm sixty six
now and I can ski okay, like I can do
a semi easy blue, but I have never felt that freedom,

(15:56):
that total relaxation that good skiers feel. Yeah, it's just
time spent. Right. I bought a place in Whistler, and
I just spent months here at a time and just
skiing over and over with an instructor, you know, a
former racer who's giving me technique, so I'm not just
running around the mountain like a lunatic. And that's helped
a lot too. I think part of the problem, Chelsea

(16:17):
is I only ski once a year. Yeah, it's hard
to improve when you're ending. You don't put the effort in,
or you don't have the time. I have to tell
you my instructor is my father in law, Herb, and
Herb is ninety one and he, oh, don't tell anyone,
he's still a ski instructor in Aspen. Oh my god. Really,
how cute is that he is? Well, he is the

(16:38):
most amazing person. I mean, he is in incredible shape.
Not only does he carry his skis, he carries mine.
He is obviously an excellent ski or. He's been doing
this for like forty years. He was in business and
he cashed out, and his boys, one of whom is
my husband, thought oh he's going to do this for

(16:59):
a little while. No, forty five or fifty years later,
he's still doing it and he's just amazing, and he's
so much fun to be with. And he has helped
me become a mediocre skier. Yeah. Yeah, And I like
mountain culture, you know, like I like the idea of
going for a run, having a nice leisurely lunch, then

(17:19):
going for more skiing and then app right. Like I
just I'm home every night by seven thirty or eight
o'clock most exhausted. I exhausted, and then I get a
massage or I read at night. I mean, I'm just
so happy in my little winter cabin life that I've
created for myself. So are you there by yourself? Do
you bring friends or people come through? I bet your

(17:40):
sister comes right. Yeah, my niece was just here for
my birthday. My friends were here, they just all left.
So then I have a couple of down days and
then I have a new group coming in this weekend. Fun.
So yeah, people come through all the time. It's really fun.
Oh that's great. Where have you been spending your vacation time?
Do you guys go to the Hampton's mostly in that area.
Right now, we're in a rental property in Los Angeles.

(18:03):
So for the past five or six years, during the
dog days of winter in New York, we've usually come
out here for six weeks to two months, because now
when you can work remotely, and now that we have
our own company and everything, I don't have to be
in a studio. So that's been a really nice change
of pace. But it is the weather Chelsea here. I know.

(18:23):
I can't believe you just said you were in LA.
I would have thought I would thought you were going
to say you're in the Happens or something. It is
so bad in La right now. It's the worst time.
I have a very good piece of good news to
report because it's sunny right now, and I can't believe it. Atriana,
who works with me, who's here for a couple of days,
that she feels like she's taken a party drug. So

(18:48):
let's talk about John and talk about your marriage a
little bit, because you guys have a very great thing
going and he's a great support ballast for your life
as well as you to him. Well, we're gonna talk
about your cancer advocacy work also because you lost your
first husband to cancer, you lost your sister, and this
is a very important kind of lifelong project for you.

(19:11):
Just so I feel part of the whole mission. I
got cancer too, exactly, So tell us what the update
on that is the cancer. John, Well, let's talked about
the cancer first. Okay, all right, I kind of ruined
the flow, didn't I let's talk about your health first.
My health is good. And by the way, Katie, I've
let me just interrupted. I had no idea you were

(19:32):
sixty six years old. You are so cute, you have
never not and I know that you talked about in
your book how annoying it is to be cute. But
I have to say, like, you have one of those
faces that you will never look old. I don't know
about that, Chelsea. No, you don't. You just look you
always look young, like it doesn't matter what your age is.
I do have kind of a young vibe, kind of

(19:53):
a yeah yeah, lively young vibe. So thank you. You're
nice to say that. But in terms of my health,
I'm fine, Knockwood only because when I was diagnosed with this, Chelsea,
I wasn't that surprised because cancer has been such a
fixture in my life. But I felt so lucky because
both Jay and Emily were diagnosed with stage four cancer.

(20:16):
And it's all about when you're diagnosed. That's why I've
been on my sort of relentless advocacy about screening because
if you detect cancer early, that's when it's most treatable,
right when it hasn't metastasized what it hasn't spread through
your body and landed on another another organ. So I

(20:37):
didn't realize I hadn't gone for my annual mammogram, went
and got a mamogram, didn't expect anything weird. But my
breast radiologist, who's I think one of the best in
the world, Susan Drossman, said, you know how the technician
calls the doctor in and they're looking at the scan.
And I have always gotten an ultrasound because I have
very dense breasts, which can only be indicated on a mamogram,

(20:59):
and forty five percent of women forty and over have
what are considered dense breass. And dense breass mean that
the breast density the tissue shows up white in the mamograham,
So it makes it very hard for the radiologists to
identify a tumor or an abnormality. As Susan says, it's
like looking for a snowball against a backdrop of snow.

(21:21):
So I've always gotten pressed ultrasounds and we were videotaping
it to do a little tape piece on the importance
of getting screened. And Adriana, who's here with me now,
who's sort of we're like freakin frack. She Susan said,
you need to stop filming. You know. She was filming
on her iPhone and we were just going to put
together a little piece. And I said, no, it's okay,

(21:44):
she can keep filming. And she's like, no, tell her
to stop. And so she said, I'd see something very suspicious.
I'm going to do a biopsy this afternoon. Can you
stick around? Long story short, it was after getting a
lump back to me, a stage one a hormone receptor
positive breast tumor. So I got radiation for fifteen days,

(22:08):
a lump back to me prior to the radiation, and
then you take something called an aromatase inhibitor for five years,
which suppresses the estrogen. The biggest bummer about this, so
my cancer, as my surgeon said, is the good one.
It's not only treatable, it's curable. The only bummer about
it is I desperately miss my estrogen. Well that's my

(22:31):
next question. Yes, how does that affect someone of your age?
Because we need HRT at a certain age. YEA right. Well,
I had been on hormone replacement therapy, although my doctor
says she does not think that contributed to my breast cancer.
But I was on the patch for probably ten years.
So I had to take the patch off immediately. And
now I take these pills that further suppress estrogen. And

(22:53):
what can I say, it sucks. Estrogen is a wonder hormone.
It helps with brain fog, it helps with skin dryness,
dryness everywhere, if you know what I'm saying. And so
it's not fun, but it's a small price to pay
considering what other people go through. What have been the
worst kind of or the biggest side effects that you've had.

(23:16):
I think, you know, I have very dry skin, and
I had when I was a little girl, I had egzema,
like on my arms, and so I was starting to
get really dry skin even when I was on the patch.
So I think it's just made it worse. And so
that's really the most significant I know it sounds stupid,

(23:37):
but it's bothersome. Does it help if you're just constantly
glathering up your face like you know, sah done moisturizer.
It does, But I just don't do that. You know,
I'm kind of lazy and land and you know, I'll
do it after I get out of the shower, and
then I'll it's just not something I do. I should
do it every night before I go to bed and
all that, but I'm usually too tired and too lazy.
But you know, I haven't noticed a problem with brain fog. Sometimes,

(24:02):
I like a lot of people my age, and anyone
my age listening will know that I kind of have
to think of words or I don't quite have the
recall I used to have. I saw somebody at Craig's
the other night who's a very big guy in the
TV industry, and I was like, oh, I can't remember
his name, and then I saw LaVar Burton, which was

(24:23):
very exciting. But so I really haven't noticed much of
a change. And you know, it's hard because as you
get older, it's hard to parse out like what's causing what.
And I'm stiff and my joints are kind of stiff.
I do a lot of pilates. But is that because
of the estrogen then I'm not taking or is it
just sort of a natural part of aging. So one

(24:46):
of the things I really wanted to come out of
my breast cancer diagnosis is I want women to a
find out if they have dense breasts, to be their
own advocates, find out if they have dense breasts, and
then ask if they can do additional screening because a
lot of breast cancers are missed in women with dense
breast because mammograms aren't sufficient. So I went down to

(25:08):
Capitol Hill and did a press conference with a congresswoman
from Connecticut named Rosa do Loro. She introduced legislation John
makes fun of me, goes, who do you think you are?
Nancy Pelosi? But she introduced legislation that will require insurance
companies to cover breast ultrasounds in women with dense breasts,
because right now many of them don't, and of course

(25:31):
many women can't afford it. So I just want women
to really be smart about their testing and make sure
that they get all the screening they need. Thank you
for this public service announcement. I'm king no, thank you
for this public service announcement. Let's talk about your relationship
and meeting someone later in life in the way that
you did, and how that's impacted your family dynamic with

(25:53):
your girls, and with you and how this is different,
you know obviously than your prior relationship. Every relationships different. Sorry,
some of the highs and like inspirational things that you
can share with us for people who are listening. Well,
it's been a joy and I've really I'm so happy
that I met John and that we found each other.

(26:14):
You know, he's just a good company. He's fun to
be with. Of course, occasionally get on each other's nerves.
He bugs me, I bug him, but he's really he's
just a solid person. He is a happy person. He
loves adventure, although he's kind of boring with his restaurant choices.
We go kind of a square mile around our apartment.

(26:36):
I'm like, muhlnerd, can we like mix it up a
little bit? But he's got a great family. They have
been an additional gift. He's one of three boys. And
you know, I love his parents. Both my parents have
died and Jay's parents died a number of years ago.
So Herbie and Paula treat Ellie and Carry like their granddaughters.
I mean, they really think of them as their granddaughters.

(26:59):
You know. It was hard because Ellie, Carrie and I
were like the three Musketeers for so long. And when
we got engaged, they came out to the Hampton's and
I took them into a room and I showed them
my engagement ring and they both burst into tears, and
they weren't really happy tears. I think they were just
shocked and worried that this was going to change things.

(27:19):
But of course it hasn't. He's just enriched our lives.
And he's got two wonderful kids as well. And we're
too old to be the Brady bunch. You know. My
kids are grown, his kids are grown, but they all
have a really nice relationship, and I just feel extraordinarily lucky.
But I tell everyone, since I know this is an
advice show, is you know, you have to be intentional

(27:41):
if you want a partner, and I'm kind of a
partner person. You have to tell people. You have to
ask people. So when I asked my friend Molly heal
Fit at spinning class if her husband, who was the
chief of trauma surgery at the Hospital for Special Surgery,
I said, Molly, does Dave know any doctors? I'm so
did in medicine and science. I've learned so much about cancer.

(28:03):
I think i'd enjoy dating a doctor, and she said,
we don't have I don't think we know any doctors,
but we do know this banker named John Muhlner. And
I was like, does he have a pulse? Has he
been to has he ever been to a doctor? Because
that will all suci And so he finally called me,
and he was funny. You know, right away he just

(28:26):
had an easiness and a fun personality and I just
liked him immediately felt comfortable. He was from Chicago. I
like midwesterners, Chelsea. They're just a little different in a
good way. They're just less pretentious. I know that's such
a generalization about millions of people, but anyway, so it's
all worked out and I'm really happy, and as I said,

(28:47):
I feel very, very very lucky. And also I think
what you said as a salient point is having your
girl's reaction thinking there's going to be some sort of subtraction,
and instead there's an enhancement. And addition, everything he's bringing
to the table is actually wonderful. His parents, you know,
his kids, all of those things, and those elements, his intelligence.

(29:10):
You know, he's the CEO of our company. He's got
he's a great businessman, you know, working with your partner
spouse is not always easy, and we're both pretty strong willed,
but his skills in building this company, Chelsea, we have
like forty plus employees. We're working with purpose driven brands.
I have a podcast, we have a newsletter. We have

(29:30):
a million subscribers newsletter, which is great, you guys. I
read it every single morning, Chelsea wake up Call. It's
called So if you haven't signed up for that, please do.
It's a great way to get your news in the morning.
And it's got a mix of everything, so it's not
like just you're just reading about politics. It's got like
pop culture and health and wellness and yes and human
interest stories, all of those things. So yeah, you go

(29:52):
to Katiekirk dot com to sign up shameless plug. But anyway,
that's that's John. Yeah, well, thank you for making sure
we spoke of about him. Okay, So we have a
couple of letters that people have written in and then
then I think we have one live call Captain tell
us what we're in store for Well, I mean it's
all on the themes that we've touched on today. It's

(30:13):
relationships and starting over, it's breast cancer. So Katie I
know you have talked about it all, so I thought
these questions would be perfect for you. Okay, great, great,
but we'll take a quick break and we'll be right
back with Katie and Chelsea. And we're back. We're back.

(30:35):
Well today, I thought we might start with our caller.
She's a teacher, so we got to get her back
to her students. But she says, dear Chelsea. I got
together with my husband ten years ago after two years
of close friendship. In that time, my husband battled a
heroin addiction. For the first five years of our relationship,
he was in and out of rehab and recovery. Although

(30:57):
it wasn't easy, I do think him being in recovery
made me a better person. I learned to focus on myself.
I learned how to set better boundaries in all my relationships,
and through it all, our relationships still remained a very
good one. We've always communicated well, loved each other sincerely,
and had a relationship based on true friendship. In July
twenty twenty one, we decided to finally get married. Our

(31:19):
wedding day was the happiest day of my life, and
since our wedding day, we've been having a true honeymoon period.
The amount of love we have for each other is
honestly overwhelming. Things were finally looking up after years with
dealing with the drama of relapse and recovery. He had
found stability in sobriety, a good job, and Hay had goals.
We bought a house together last September, and things were

(31:41):
going better than I had ever imagined. Then in December,
I found out he was sleeping with this coworker. This
is something I never saw coming and could not have
prepared myself for. We went from mentioning daily how grateful
we were for each other to him moving out and
pursuing a relationship with another much younger by the way woman.
To say and devastated is an understatement. This feels to

(32:03):
me a lot like a relapse. It happened suddenly after
he stopped taking care of himself, going to meetings, and
communicating with his sponsor and friends in recovery. I married
him fully knowing that there was a possibility he could relapse,
but I never knew how this could happen. Since he
moved out just before Christmas, he has moved into an apartment,
continued dating as coworker, and basically ignored my existence. He's

(32:25):
given me no indication that he's interested in working on
himself or our relationship. But I'm having such a hard
time letting him go. Do I wait for him to
figure his shit out? Do I move on? How do
I let go? Elizabeth? God, that is so sad, so brutal.
Hi Elizabeth, you're here, Oh, Hi, Elizabeth. I'm so sorry, Elizabeth,

(32:48):
this happened. And I can imagine how devastating this is.
And it sounds like you were so important to his
journey and then to have this happened is awful. By
the way, you look so young. How could this woman
be much younger? What is she eleven? And how old

(33:09):
are you? I want to echo what Katie said, I'm
so sorry. I'm so sorry. Heartbreak is the way it
feels like it's the worst thing and that it is
the most unrecoverable thing. But it is not, and you
will recover. And I said this the other day to
my friend and because we were talking, and I know,
it's like, sometimes when we can't get ourselves out of

(33:29):
situations by ourselves, the universe has a way of getting
us out of those situations. And even though it doesn't
feel like he's doing you a favor, and he has
several issues with drugs, with the cheating, with all of
these things. This is a way for you to have
him out of your life and really reassess, I think
what drew you to him in the first place, what

(33:51):
allowed you to trust him in the first place and
have so much faith in him, and kind of recalibrate
what you're willing to accept in the future moving forward,
or whether it's him coming back in six months, which
is a possibility, and you have to decide what you're
going to do with that if and when that happens,
and if it doesn't happen, what are you going to
do to prepare yourself to be in a real, loving
relationship that is reciprocal where you don't have to worry

(34:14):
about somebody going off the rails because it was intense, intense, intense, intense,
and then disappear like that's not what any responsible human does.
You sit down and you have a conversation saying, I'm
having these feelings for another person or I've acted on
these feelings and I'm confused. You don't just take off
and ignore this person that's been by your side I agree.
I mean, it sounds so cruel that he You know,

(34:37):
people do fall in love with other people, it happens.
But the fact that he has been so cruel and
callous and completely cut you out of his life. But
one thing I wanted to say that Chelsea mentioned is
it's so interesting who we're drawn to. You know, were
you drawn to him because you wanted to save him,
that you wanted to fix him, that you wanted to

(34:58):
help him. Is there something in your past, in your
relationships with your family or with your parents, that maybe
make you gravitate to people like this who are sort
of dangerous and living on the edge. And even if
he was getting better, I thought it was interesting too
that you described this as a relapse, like maybe one

(35:22):
addiction replacing another, the high of almost an illicit romance
replacing the high of drugs. And I don't know much
about that, but I thought that was an interesting use
of words, did you, Chelsea? Yeah, absolutely, it does sound
like a transference, right, like you go from one thing
to the other. Do you know if he's had a relapse.

(35:44):
I don't think he's used drugs or alcohol. A lot
of the like warning signs of a relapse. We're coming up.
Before I found out, which is how I found out,
I started getting a little bit suspicious. I thought that
he relapsed on drugs, and then I found out that
it was an affair. And like I've spoken to his sponsor.
His sponsor agrees it's very much like relapsed behavior. But

(36:08):
he's in such denial, like he does not want to
hear it, and he gets super defensive anytime anybody accuses
him of needing mental health help right now? And when
was the last time you spoke with him? Well, I
spoke with him on Sunday because he wants to talk
about Dad. But he did tell me on Sunday that

(36:32):
he's no longer with that girl, but that he still
doesn't want to be married to me anymore. And you
have this house together, yeah, And so what's the plan there?
Have you gotten that far yet? I know I'm not moving.
I'm not selling the house. I put a significant portion
of my savings into the house, like the down deposit,

(36:55):
and it wouldn't make any sense for me to move
because rent anywhere I have to dogs, and rent anywhere
with two dogs would be more expensive than what my
mortgage is. But he's under the impression that we'll just
sign papers and he'll get off scot free and just
live a life that has no repercussions for his actions.

(37:16):
I mean, I feel like his behavior alone is going
to help you get through this quicker, as painful as
it feels. He's like disassociating himself from your prior relationship.
And I do think you are dodging a major bullet
of like more pain and more grief. I don't think
that you should be holding onto the idea that maybe
you guys can reconcile, because hey, he needs a ton

(37:36):
of therapy and you don't have time for that. Like
I would rather see you take this time to really
get centered and grounded and read all the books that
you can read about what that means for you. There's
a great book I mentioned all the time on this podcast,
Letting Go, by David Hawkings, which is very deep and
very meta, but it is about letting the world stop

(37:57):
resisting your reality. You know, whatever ever is happening, Just
deal with what's happening and the situation without trying to push,
move or change it, aligning yourself and it makes recovery
at heartbreak so much easier because there are doors that
are going to open because of this closure that you
haven't seen yet, and life is going to take a

(38:18):
different shape for you, and you have to be inspired
by that and move towards that. If you can understand
what I'm saying there, Yeah, that's what I'm having a
hard time with is just letting go, honestly, especially because
it's a relapse, because I married him knowing that he
could relapse, but I did not know that an affair
could be a relapse. I thought it would be drugs

(38:38):
or alcohol in some ways, Are you excusing his behavior
and saying, well, this is the personality of an addict. Yeah,
And like I married him knowing he was an addict,
and so what is my responsibility? But then again, like
I meant my vowels when I said them, and he's
broken them, and I don't know even if he came back,

(38:59):
where we would land. And you deserve so much better, right,
you know, there's I think a lot of women hold
on thinking they're going to fix somebody, and that's almost
part of the attraction. And I think if he doesn't
let you not to go all over on you be
your best self and let you pursue your dreams and

(39:19):
be a full and whole person. And if it's all
about him and his addiction and his you know, wanting
to stay clean and you're so focused on that, what's
left over for you? Yeah, I agreed, not much and
just the treatment, you know what I mean. This isn't
how you treat someone you've spent all this time with,
who's been there for you all this time, and that

(39:41):
alone is just like you're that's not acceptable to you.
You deserve so much better and you deserve to be
standing on higher ground. And by continuing to have this
conversation with yourself about what you want moving forward. I
understand it's hard to get over someone, but time will heal.
You will get over him. You will get over him
before you think you will. It always happens, you know.

(40:02):
We don't stay in love with the same people for
twenty or forty years. And sometimes even if people do,
there's people along the way that come in and you know,
shake things up. And I think this is a time
for you to dive inward and really do the work
on yourself so that you're never in a position where
you are vulnerable to a person or an addict like this. Again,
you know, yeah, yeah, And I think Katie is right that,

(40:24):
you know, he's chasing chaos, whether it's the heroine or
another person, or busting up his marriage in this way,
whatever it is. And so are you in therapy right now?
I am okay good. I mean, you know, we talked
about this a couple of weeks ago. But when you
are ready for a new relationship, because it's probably not
going to be right away, but when you are going

(40:45):
after relationships that feel steadier and feel really not these
like extreme highs and lows. The nice thing about that too,
is like there's less for you to take care of.
You know, you don't necessarily need somebody who can take
care of you in that way, but you need someone
who you can take care of each other. It's not
just one sided of like I gotta help him be

(41:08):
in recovery. I gotta help him get out of this,
you know, I gotta help him figure out his life.
Now that he's laughed me. I wonder why so many
women you all are attracted to chaos chaotic relationships sort
of the push pull the where do I stand? I
was watching before I went to bed. Sometimes I watch
old episodes of sex in the City and Carrie is

(41:28):
dating Aid in it right now. In this episode I
was watching and she said, it's so nice, it's so easy,
it's so calm, and she was so unhappy about that.
And it's interesting when you look at your own self,
like why do I what is it about my past
or about relationships or about my makeup that makes me

(41:50):
want to be in this chaos because ultimately it's just
so not fun. But I think when you see that,
you can move towards thing that's different than that, especially
with the help of a therapist. I think after five
years of sobriety, like we were getting to that point,
and that's one of the things he said, Like I
was just waking up, going to the gym, going to work,

(42:11):
coming home, sitting on the couch watching TV, and I
was like, that's life, Like that's where I wanted to be.
I want a boring life with somebody. I want somebody
that I can just sit on the couch next to
and not necessarily even have to have a conversation. So
for me, like we were finally at the point where
I was like, great, we own a house. This is

(42:32):
our nice, little like boring life together. And it was
comfortable and this really just like smacked me in the
face out of nowhere. I feel like I'm still reeling
from the shock. It's interesting what some people consider contentment
other people consider boredom. Right, I would be with you

(42:53):
because those are the things I'm interested in as well.
Sitting on the couch watching TV at the end of
the day and not fucking talking to anybody. That is
also my idea of perfect relationship. You know, too much
talking drives me crazy. It's like I make a living talking,
so I like quiet, you know as much as I
like talking. Do you relate to that, Katie, like everyone

(43:15):
just to stop? Yeah, I love quiet too. I feel
like you that it's contentment to be able to I
used to be so sad when I saw people out
to dinner and not talking, and that still makes me
sad when I see couples. But there's something when you're
comfortable enough to not have to talk all the time,
when you just find comfort in each other's presence and

(43:38):
it doesn't feel forced or awkward. That to me is
my sweet spot. That's where I want to be in
a relationship, and that's what I found, and it is
possible to find it and you know, I think you
deserve a drama free relationship. That's what you want, and
that's what you should go out and find. And I

(44:00):
was saying earlier to Chelsea and Catherine. You know, when
I look for a partner, I'm pretty intentional about it.
I don't think I'm going to run into somebody at
a bookstore, you know, perusing the new novels. I think
that you have to network. You have to say to people,
I'm interested in meeting new people. And it may not
even be for love connections. It may be just for
expanding your social circle, learning something new from somebody who's

(44:24):
in a completely different profession or has an interesting hobby.
And you know, I always say only coffee or a
glass of wine, because I don't want to be stuck
having dinner with somebody who I just don't feel a
connection with it all. But I also try to give them,
you know, I try to respect them and appreciate them
for who they are, even if they're not somebody I

(44:46):
want to be, you know. Dating there's also a book
called It's called Breakup because It's Broken, which is a
good breakup book. Write that one down, and then the
Letting Go book because I think what you're really talking
about is letting go. Yeah, And I think that you
know this is an off oportunity. Don't ever forget every disaster,
every traumatic experience we have is an opportunity for growth.

(45:07):
So you're going to take this opportunity and you are
going to grow, you know what I mean? And you
think you have to think about that every single day
and use the intention that Katie's referring to as a
daily practice for yourself. What am I intentions for today?
To learn more about myself, To be more honest with myself,
to be looking for the good in people and the
people that are giving the good back to you, and

(45:29):
really just you know, taking the time to get yourself
a little bit out of your comfort zone in the
things that you're reading and learning about yourself, even with
your therapy. Really get down to it, and I think
that you're going to be in a much better spot
sooner than later. And don't lose hope. Just remember that
you are a person of strength. We all have such
a deep reservoir of strength within us. Sometimes we have

(45:51):
to really pull it out, and this is one of
those times where you have to stand on your two
feet and don't waiver. His behavior has been unacceptable and
there's no way back to him. Yeah, and think of
all you have to offer. I think when people get
treated this way, they look for deficits in themselves because
it's sort of what's wrong with me? What did I

(46:13):
do wrong? Why wasn't I good enough? And it doesn't
have anything to do with that. It's not that you
have deficits. And I think at a time like this,
you have to remember all the great things about you,
And as Chelsea said, I think Chelsea would be an
excellent purpose by the way, but that you know, to

(46:33):
really think about all that you have to offer, not
the things that you are suddenly feeling that you don't have.
When you break up and you start to obsess about
the other person, what are they doing, what are they thinking,
what's their motive? What were they saying? What do they
mean when they did this? That is the thinking that
it's like, no, no, what do I think? What am
I doing? What do I think about him? What do

(46:54):
I think about myself? How did he make me feel? Yeah,
it's about you redirect any thoughts you have about about
him back to you, because that's who you need to
be paying attention to It doesn't matter what he thinks
or what he's doing. You're going to stand your ground
and you're going to develop as a human being because
of this experience. Yeah, you get to be a little
bit selfish now, and you should be. That's nice. So

(47:15):
stay busy. I know that, Like even when I lost
my husband Jay, and even when I've had sort of
dramatic breakups or you know, after long relationships. I think
you really have to lean on your female friends and
your male friends and really stay busy. Take a trip,
go for a hike, take a pottery class. I mean,

(47:37):
just work on yourself. But I think those times where
you wake up at three in the morning and you're
ruminating and you can't go back to sleep, and I
think just staying busy for me was so important during
traumatic periods of my life. It's like I'm trying to
strike a balance between staying busy and like taking time
to feel my feelings, because I think sometimes staying busy

(48:00):
makes me avoid my reality a little bit. I feel
like I'm performing all the time for other people. Well,
maybe stay busy by yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's
good to reflect. I think that's really important. I didn't
learn that until I was much older. About sitting by
yourself and like allowing the pain to come through, allowing
yourself to grieve, you know what I mean, not necessarily

(48:20):
relying on other people to make you feel better as
a distraction, but kind of working through the pain yourself,
allotting that time each day. Another good book for you
to read is attached, because it can probably it will
probably be very clear to you what kind of person
he is, which sounds avoidant, and it kind of gives
you the dynamics between people who are needy or what
people are expecting out of relationships, and the attraction that

(48:41):
why you're even in a relationship with someone like this.
You know, not that there's anything wrong with you, it's
just our patterns of behavior and our patterns of giving love.
So yes, please just remember that you're a huge value.
Separating is not the end of your world. It's the
beginning of a different part of your life. Yep, I'm
gonna play this on repeat. Talk Thank you, I appreciate it.

(49:06):
I want to get these books too. They sound so interesting. Yeah,
they're all just you know, like it just depends what
kind of hits you. You know, I've read so many
like breakup or self help books. They kind of go
hand in hand. And some of them are deeper, some
of them are lighter. There's like The Untethered Soul, which
is kind of a light, freely read and that's okay,
but that's not the book for me. Like I like
deep thinking about like how life gets easier when you

(49:30):
accept everything and you just go, oh, that didn't work out, Okay,
what else is going to happen? Not belaboring you know,
oh what happened when you beat a dead horse like that?
You're stuck. So you're just gonna have to get yourself unstuck.
What you're gonna do, and then you're going to report
back to us. Okay, thank you so much. Okay, Okay,

(49:51):
we love you, Thanks Elizabeth, good luck bye. I love
you so much. Thank you. We're gonna be okay. Well
she's so sweet too. Just to brag on her for
a second, she said, you know, because I was like, oh, man, December,
like it's right before the holidays that this all blew up.
And she goes, oh yeah, and he had invited his

(50:12):
whole family to come for Christmas, and I go, oh,
my gosh, did you guys cancel, she goes No, I
just told them he left. I don't know where he's
going to be, but you guys are still welcome to come.
And so they came and stayed with her. Oh that's sweet.
I like that. I know what a sweetheart. She's so nice.
I wouldn't I would be like, Nope, you and your

(50:39):
family can go fuck off. That's more my style. Yeah,
we took up too much time Katie catching up. Yes,
we loved very much on so it's good love it.
We probably could have cut that. Well. You know what,
we can clarify for now once and for all, because

(50:59):
I'll so. The other thing is, I keep getting these
people saying I was on his flight log to Epstein Island,
and I'm like, I mean, that's why this dinner. Have
I ever pretended that I didn't do something that I've done,
Like I am the first person to announce it to
the world. So I would like to clarify that neither
Katie or myself has ever been on a flight with

(51:21):
Jeffrey Epstein. Just a dinner. Yeah, that was my meing
that I was on his manifesto like she was on Jeffrey.
I'm like, what are they talking about. First of all,
it's manifest It's not Manifesto. Sorry sorry sorry wait sorry sorry, Oh,
we'll have to edit that out. We can't have me
correct you. I keep reading and people tweeked me you

(51:46):
were on Jeffrey Epstein's manifest and I'm like, what I
imagine you and I going to that island and then
what what are we? What are we up to there? Right? Anyway?
That but that's good. So yes, my dinner which Jeffrey,
our dinner with Jeffrey is has been discussed once and
for all. Okay, great, well let's take a quick break

(52:07):
and we'll be right back to wrap up. And we're
back with Katie, Gerrik and Katherine, and we're wrapping up
today's episode. Well, Katie, is there any advice you'd like
from Chelsea? Yeah, Katie, yes, Oh gosh, I'm springing it
on you. Oh gosh. Yes, I know. I was supposed

(52:29):
to think about that, Katherine, and I think I forgot
to think about it. Okay, that's no problem. What about
if we just do one more question and then close
it up. Yeah, I think that's good. Sure, this is
a bit of a heavy one, but it is right
up your alleys, so I definitely wanted to get to
this one. This is from Marty. Marty says, Dear Chelsea.

(52:50):
I'm the eldest of six sisters and one brother. I'm
also a wife and mother to three girls. We're close knit,
though a little crazy. My second to youngest sister, who's
seven years younger than I, has breast cancer diagnosed back
in twenty eighteen. In twenty twenty, the cancer metastasized to
her brain, which was a heartbreak. She was given three

(53:10):
months to live and there are not a lot of
treatment options. My sister has miraculously lived a quality life
for the last two years due to her hard work,
support group, and medical advances. However, we're now at a
point where her chemotherapy is no longer working. She's on
her way to take part in a phase one medical trial,
hoping to help others in the future and perhaps also

(53:32):
extend her life. My sisters and I have been her
cheerleaders throughout this process and have been her confidant in support.
She's an amazing person and sister. I sure hope that
her life is extended through the trial, but I'm trying
to prepare for the alternative. I want to be there
for her, say all the right things and provide comfort,
strength and peace. But I don't know how to do this.

(53:54):
I don't know what to say. I'm afraid I will
say the wrong thing. I want to save her. I
don't want this to happen. I'm heartbroken and I need
to help myself so I can help her. Can you help?
Give me answers? Thank you, and I hope this note
finds its way to you. Marty. You have really smart, sensitive,

(54:14):
eloquent listeners. So that was a beautiful letter, and that
is a very very I think that is one of
the most profound and difficult situations. You know, we as
a culture just don't know how to help people die.
You know. I think I wrote a lot about this
in my book because I was in a state of

(54:35):
denial and was the cheerleader for Jay, despite the fact
that I knew that his illness was you know, the
likeliness of being cured was almost zero. So you know,
they have something called death duelas now, which is really
interesting that they helped families and they help people deal

(54:59):
with their own mortality. And I think clearly this is
an incredibly loving family and I wish that when Jay
was sick. We had had somebody to sit and talk
to us and a lat give us space to express
our fears and our Jay's hope for the future, for
our daughters to be able to have those conversations, which

(55:23):
are the hardest conversations you can have. So I have
so much empathy and sympathy for that listener, and I
think just being there for the person and just surrounding
them by love or with love. There was this incredible
show on Netflix called From Scratch and kem By Locke

(55:45):
wrote it. It was based on a true story and
I watched it and I just cried because her husband
died of cancer and the way he was surrounded by love,
and the way she was just there for him and
she was saying Tiamo, tiamo because he was Italian. It
was so moving. I'm started crying thinking about it. And

(56:09):
I think families need help with this. You know, nobody
reads a book about this, Nobody. It's such a new
and painful experience. But I think it can be turned
into something that's truly transcendent us. I think that people
need help, and she should get together with her loving

(56:31):
sisters and maybe talk about it and talk to someone
who specializes in this to say. Kate Bowler has a
great podcast. She's been living with colon cancer for a
long time. She talks a lot about this this kind
of stuff. And I did a whole video with a
death duela and with Kate and with another woman who
had lost her husband right after they she gave birth

(56:53):
to twins. And it's a very very hard thing. What
would you say, Chelsea to this for I think it's
really important just to give as much love as possible,
you know, to anybody who is leaving this earth. The
situation is not in your control, but what you can
control is how you deal with the situation and what
you provide. And I think it can be a completely

(57:15):
transformative relationship for you to be able to show up
for your sister in this way, in this loving way,
where it's not about necessarily you losing her right now,
it's about you being there for her right now and
working through your stuff on your own time with your family.
I think a death duel is a great idea, and
also to just start to think about death in a

(57:36):
different way, in a way that it doesn't feel like, yes,
your sister may be leaving this earth, but her aura.
Her spirit is never going to be gone. I can't
tell you how often I feel my mother around me. Katie.
Do you have that experience with Jay or with your
sister that you feel them around you, or that you
have a sign when you know, like that they're giving

(57:56):
you or anything like that a little bit? You know,
I'm not. I just don't think I'm very receptive to that, Chelsea. Yet.
I wish I were. There are moments, but I sometimes think, oh,
I'm just imagining that. Yeah, And I think that's true.
I think the more open you are spiritually and open
hearted you are, the more that you will be able

(58:19):
to receive from people once they are not on this earth.
You know, the energy just transforms. It never dies. It's
not like she's going to go on and live up
in heaven or whatever. But her spirit will still survive
because that's the energy that we all have. You know,
our spirit goes on and whatever wherever it goes, you know,
we'll never know. But I want you to look at it.

(58:39):
Try to start looking about it. You know. There's a
book called Many Lives, Many Masters, which kind of blows
your mind about reincarnation, which I don't really believe in
but when I read that book, it's impossible not to.
These are firsthand accounts of people who have been built
under hypnosis and then speak Italian for an hour and
they didn't even know they could speak Italian, you know,
like crazy memories that people have from their lives. So

(59:02):
I just I think having that attitude and being open
to what the possibilities of life after death are and
what that means, so that it doesn't feel yes, you're
not going to see her again in her physical form,
but that doesn't mean what she's imprinted on you thus
far ever has to disappear. And you have an opportunity
now to give her so much love and so much

(59:24):
support and really be there for her in a way
that is going to elevate you as well, that is
going to make you proud of the way that this
takes shape. Whether she passes on or whether she is
able to survive, you should be prepared for the prior
and that you can be here in this moment as
somebody who is going to be holding her hand as

(59:46):
she leaves this world, that is going to be there
with that kind of love that all that's all you
could ever want in this world is to be born
into love and then leave in love. And so I
also think Chelsea, you know, just they're obviously a very
close family, and I think to be able to have
an honest conversation with her sister, like what do you need?

(01:00:07):
I love that you said, don't think about losing her,
but just think about being there for her. What do
you need? What can I do? What are you afraid of?
I don't know if her sister has children. I mean
that's really hard too, you know, talking about even some
of the practical concerns that she might have, and just

(01:00:28):
telling her that she is there for her, to help
her in any way big and small. And it just
we're afraid, you know, we're afraid to say. I wish
I had said to Jay, I'm so afraid that you're
going to die, And can you leave something for Ellie
and Carrie who are two and six and are never

(01:00:49):
going to know their father truly? And I just think
that as a culture, we need to learn the language
of loss and of illness and of death, and that
we're so afraid of our own mortality. It just it's
it's almost paralyzing, Yes, and honoring this time in her life,

(01:01:11):
you know, all the things that Katie just said, and
then also having everybody around having a party, having a
dinner party, you know, to a celebration of her life. Yeah,
that's true. You know, they do living memorial services now
I read. Yeah, you know, and maybe you should talk
to someone by my friend Laurie Gottlief, she had she's
a therapist. She had a patient with cancer really young,

(01:01:32):
you know, I think she was in her early thirties,
and they did a whole celebration of her life while
she was living. And you know, maybe that's something as
you mentioned, I didn't mean to interrupt, Chelsea, but that
that is something you could do for her, if that's
something that would be helpful. Yeah, closure with everyone is
so helpful, the whole family member just showing up and

(01:01:54):
just being there for her and every moment and fulfilling
her requests whatever they may be. It's going to help
you through the rest of your life and your loss too,
and your grief and your families. You know. So this
is the time when families really have an opportunity to
show up for each other. So I know it's a
really difficult situation, but I think you can rise to
the occasion and really just be a leader, like, help

(01:02:17):
lead this so that she's as comfortable as possible and
gets anything she wants off of her chest or you know,
time spent with other family members and her wishes from
after she's gone, to honor all of those things, I
think will be really helpful in what you're dealing with.
You know, when my mom died, Chelsea, I was just bereft,
you know, I was very close to both my parents,

(01:02:39):
and I remember my minister calling, and I go to church,
so I'm not super religious, but I really liked my
minister and he called to offer his condolences, and I
told him I was just felt like an untethered Helian balloon,
you know, I just was sort of unmoored. And he said,
remembered those who love deeply, grieved deeply, and it kind

(01:03:04):
of turned a switch in me, and it made me
go from immense sadness to immense gratitude. Obviously, this letter
was written by someone with a very loving relationship with
her sisters, and to kind of take a moment and
appreciate that is also very comforting. Indeed, we ended on

(01:03:29):
a really difficult note, but I think so many of
us go through something like this that it's going to
be really helpful to a lot of people. So thank
you for sharing. Thank you Katie for sharing. It's always
nice to see you. I love you. I hope I
see you in person sooner than later. I hope so too,
because there's so much I want to talk to you
about and ask you about. And yeah, I have to say, Chelsea,

(01:03:51):
I really appreciate listening to you give advice because you're
very wise, and you're very smart, and I think you're
extremely helpful to a lot of people. Not to mention
highly entertaining, we didn't even talk about tuckered carsons. Oh
my god. Oh I think that's apt because he doesn't

(01:04:13):
deserve anymore. As my daughter said, that's all they have.
That's all they have, or these culture wars, and that's
all they can talk about. And it's just so poisonous
and so ridiculois. I loved It's so stupid poisonous. Also,
my niece was up here saying, she goes. They were

(01:04:33):
Tucker Cross talking about how women. If you've ever seen
a woman back up a car, then you know that
they're not equal to men. He said, it back up
a car like it's almost a parody of misogyny. Right,
it's not even in real step with real misogyny, you
know what I mean. It's like it's it's misogyny for
morons for nineteen fifties. Yeah, misogyny. So yeah, so let's

(01:04:58):
not give him any more airtime. But they thank you
so much for coming on. Oh. I really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it. Katherine, Thank you. I'd spend fun
being with you as well. And Chelsea, please let me
know when we're in the same city because I would
love to spend some quality time with you. I would too.
I would too. I'm going to reach out to you
and let you know when I'm in New York. You're
in New York mostly right, yeah, mostly New York. Yeah? Okay, okay, cool,

(01:05:21):
all right, lots of love to everyone, Okay, bye, bye,
thank you. Okay. I've added some new dates for my
new Little Big Bitch tour. I'm gonna tell you the
ones that are not sold out because we're adding second
shows in Kalamazoom, Michigan Sunday, April sixteenth, we added a
second show. We're adding a second show in Spokane, Washington,

(01:05:43):
which is going to be Thursday. So I'll be performing
in Spokane Thursday and Friday. And then we added Red
Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado, which is in Morrison, Colorado, and
that is May tenth, so and then I have one
new edition Friday, May twelve. We added Monticello, New York.

(01:06:04):
So that's a resort World Cats Skills. I don't think
I've been to the Cat Skills well ever, and we're
continuing to add shows. We have a lot of cities
on the list, Vegas, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Alabama, a lot of
places in Tennessee. So if you're listening, go to Chelsea
Hammo dot com for tickets and you could see my
stand up special Revolution on Netflix, which is now streaming.

(01:06:27):
So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us
an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com.
Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartRadio, produced by Catherine
Law and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.