April 3, 2025 • 35 mins
Fashion designer Norma Kamali has stayed relevant for generations by tapping into culture, creativity, and technology. In the early 60s, she got a degree from the Fashion Institute of Technology but didn’t fit in with the style of the time. She abandoned design to work for an airline instead, giving her access to travel. During frequent trips to London, Norma discovered a fashion revolution that hadn’t hit the States yet. Soon she would be at the forefront of New York’s changing style. With her famous sweats collection, unforgettable sleeping bag coats, and iconic swimwear, she’s been credited with pioneering trends that still reverberate today. Unlike many designers, Norma never sold her brand, retaining control of both the creative and the business. Listen in to Norma’s conversation with Bob to tap into her wisdom– from the importance of disruption to sourcing creativity to innovative and forward-thinking uses of AI.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night,
or I'll wake up in the morning, and these incredible
ideas are right in the front of my brain and
I'm excited by them. Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to this episode of Math
and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we've
got someone who has succeeded through generations of innovation, tapping
into the moment and using technology and creativity to build
and build and build her business and her brand. It's
fashion icon Norma Kamali Normal was a New York kid
(00:49):
who went to school in New York and studied fashion
illustration at fit Fashion Institute of Technology, but fell out
of place with the fashion of that time. So after graduation,
she took a as an airline clerk at Northwest Orian
Airlines and use the perks of the job to go
to London almost every weekend for four years. And that
opened her mind to culture, art, fashion and different points
(01:13):
of view, all the things that propel her to success
in fashion. She was there at the great moments, including
a front row seat at Studio fifty four and the
transformative effect it had on culture, and how it elevated
designers to celebrity status. She's also had a hand in
technology and art and has always been ready to adapt
to the new. She's both creative and savvy in business.
(01:36):
She's a longtime friend and a wonderful person. Normal. Welcome, Well,
thank you, Bob.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
That one's very nice. I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, we're going to dig into a lot of meat today,
but first I want to do you in sixty seconds.
Were you ready to go?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I'm ready?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Okay, here we go. Cats are dogs, dogs, early riser,
night out, early coffee or tea, tea, streaming TV or podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Oh, I'm a big podcaster.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Sneakers or heels to say both bright colors or neutrals.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
I do both on that one.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Also, okay, powers or London London, Andy Warhol or Halston
Andy Warhol, your sleeping bag, coat or your swimwear.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I can't answer that it's too personal. I can't answer that.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I just love all the children. Yes, all time favorite
musical artist, Eda James. Smartest person you know, Gosh, I am.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Very lucky to know a lot, I would say, Martin Edelman,
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
There your go to exercise routine.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I've been doing physy fifty seven since two thousand and six.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Childhood hero Michaelangelo Believe it or.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Not, technology you can't live without.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Oh my god, AI favored decade now totally now.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
And the best advice you ever got Know.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Thyself, my sixth grade teacher.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Okay, let's jump down. What is so remarkable about you
is that you started in the sixties and here you
are today, still going strong. There's a huge lesson in
this for marketers and other business people. How have you
managed to be relevant through all the changes in society
and culture and how have you adjusted, adapted and connected.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Understanding the importance of disruption is key. All of a sudden,
you're off on a path that the rest of the
planet is not even thinking about anymore. Of the are off.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
On something else, and so the idea of disruption that
you create yourself is critical. And there is no better
time to explain the importance of that than right now.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
When you think about disruption, do you intend to disrupt
or do you just see something different and you move
toward that and it turns out to be disruptive?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
For me as a designer, I'm more intuitive, So I
think that something is not right, something's not right, and
then ideas come to me, and I find the ideas
start to make changes in things that are going on
between my last collection and now everyone in this company
(04:36):
wants to kill me, basically because I've disrupted each and
everyone their lives and what they do because I felt
we were on the verge of getting too comfortable. We
need to really make a big shift, and I was
doing it personally, but I wasn't taking the company with me.
(04:56):
And so hopefully they don't hate me too much longer
and settle in and feel good about where the level
we're at now and where we're going.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
You know, let's talk about creativity for a second. You
said you're intuitive and the ideas come to you. Where
are those ideas come from?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night,
or I'll wake up in the morning and these incredible
ideas are right in the front of my brain and
I'm excited by them, and I don't know where they
come from. It's not something I heard before, it's not
(05:39):
something I saw anywhere. And I just really feel like
there's something communicating with me in some way. I really
have that experience, and I've had it for as long
as I can remember, and I almost felt guilty that
I don't know if this is me or something else
(06:01):
giving it to me, and I'm sending it out there.
But now more and more I hear other people have
had the same experience, so there must be something about that.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I don't want to question it. It's working for me,
so I'm going with the flow.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You know, it's funny you talk about that, because I
spend a lot of time thinking about it. I like,
you wake up at about four or five in the
morning with an idea and I can't go back to
sleep until I write it down on its crystal clear,
or I'm in a nice hot meditative shower and suddenly
that speech I couldn't think about, or the line or
the whatever, it just comes into my brain. And some
(06:40):
people have read some on it and say, what we're
doing is that when we get to the meditative state,
when we get to the level that we've now connected
and ideas can flow. Some say from our subconscious, which
is always working on stuff into our conscious. Others a
little more spiritual will say it's coming from the universe,
consciousness or whatever. But if you'll let it. Every answer
(07:04):
will come to you, but you got to get down
to sort of whatever's that meditative state for you. And
interesting that that does it for you too.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I agree with that. I think that we need restoration.
But the spirit never sleeps. The spirit is always active,
the spirit is.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Always in motion.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And what happens is it is possible that that spirit
is then bringing back something to us when we wait.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's interesting. David Eagleman, the neuroscientist from Stanford. He says
consciousness is like the broom closet in the mansion of
our mind, that most of us is not the conscious us,
but it's the subconscious us. Let's go back a little
bit in time more sort of your business origin story.
You spent all that time in London at a time
(07:57):
when it was happening there in New York was clearly
behind the times mid sixties. What did that exposure in
London do to you? What did it open up in you?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
This was a big revolution as it is now right,
and the revolution then was really the change from where
we were and then going into this baby boomer culture
that just wore down everything. I remember going to London
(08:27):
for the first time and not really knowing what was
going on there or what was about to go on,
and I just wanted to start traveling. And I stayed
at this little boarding house in Sloan Square, and I
remember walking down the King's Road and everything was gray, gray,
(08:48):
tweet gray sky, gray buildings, gray was raining, and I
all of a sudden saw this one store and the
whole front had a big colorful billboardy type cover on
the top of the entrance, and this music was blaring
(09:13):
out of the store, and I thought, what is that.
I was like a mok to a flame. I felt
the hair on my arms rising, and I was just
drawn to this sound and to the color, and at
that moment I knew something was happening, something really different
(09:37):
was happening, and none of that was in New York
or in the US yet. And I was there every
weekend for four years, and through every weekend, I fortunately
was in all the places where all of this was happening.
And the musicians. My best friend in London's husband worked
(10:00):
for Peter Grant, who was led Zeppelin's manager, notorious manager,
and so I was staying at her house and they were.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Always at her house, and there was all of.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
These things happening around me, and I was swept up,
totally swept up. I mean, can you imagine having a
conversation with Jimmy Hendrix. There, I am having a conversation
with Jimmy Hendrix. I would come back to work and
sit at the at my UNIVAC computer desk at the Airlines,
(10:32):
and I couldn't even say who Jimmy Hendrix was because
nobody would know because it was that early. And then
when it started to come to the US, I saw
how this thing just exploded. And I was not sort
of a fashion of the matching hat.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Gloves mad men. Look, I was never into that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And then I saw, oh, this is me, this is freedom,
this is anything. Be creative, be original, be innovative. And
so that message was imprinted and never left me.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I'm getting in the elution here. But you opened the
successful store Manhattan originally bringing clothes from London. Why did
you then start doing your own clothes? What was that
jump from I'm going to sell these clothes up seeing
in London to my own stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Well, I had some ideas that I wasn't seeing anywhere,
and it's very interesting. I was fearless and I just
did whatever I was making eighty dollars a week, Bob,
when I came up with this idea of getting a store.
I found a store for two hundred and eighty five
dollars a month, believe it or not, and it was
(11:52):
in a basement, and that's where I started selling clothes.
And then I thought, you know, I'm going to try
and do some things. And what was fascinating was in
six MONTHSS I had a full page in Harper's Bazaarre
of a skirt I made, and I was like, what
(12:13):
is what is happening? So it gave me inspiration to
go on. But it was total ignorance. It was lack
of knowledge or understanding of the downside risk. I just
had this sense of confidence that I just don't understand
(12:34):
where it came from.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
But I added, you went through a divorce and basically
started over under the on my own Omo Normakomali brand.
How did you make that jump? I mean that's got
to be pretty scary. You get some success, leave it
behind and start over again.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
First of all, when you get married at nineteen for
all the wrong reasons. He was a terrific guy and
believed in me completely and thought that I was the
most talented thing ever.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It was a dream.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And then you know, in that ten years between nineteen
and thirty, you really are developing as a human being.
And when we met, I could go out dancing every
night and just be the happiest person in the world.
And we loved to dance together. We would win money
(13:30):
at dance contests and it was like great. But then
when we started the business, finally our lives changed so much.
I was working all the time and I was so
happy to have found what my love and passion would be.
(13:50):
And he wanted a different kind of life, a more
carefree life. He wasn't as interested in the business as
I was, and especially at the time, I think felt
intimidated that I was so into this business and he
(14:12):
was uncomfortable with the idea of it. So eventually, you know,
people behave in a crazy way, and it got to
the point where I think I need to leave this.
And he also controlled the money, and I had ninety
(14:33):
eight dollars and it was a tough decision to leave
because I had no power to be self sufficient, but
I just did it because I thought I was just
going to lose my soul if I stayed there. And
being there was everything to me. So it was a
(14:54):
big shocker, and I had no idea, I had no plan,
but I knew that it was just not a good
place for me to be, and so I left. And
then I finally told people that I needed help and
that I needed to find way to borrow money or
(15:14):
do something. And it was a big ask because like
I said, I had ninety eight dollars, but I could
not believe the amount of people that really were so
incredibly generous and helped me in my first business learning
was paying everybody back and being religious about it, and
(15:37):
I realized the importance of really knowing about money and
being in control of how all of that works in
a business.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Obviously, it worked out for you. You opened your famous retail
boutique Alo was fifty sixth Street. But I want to
jump to one other cultural moment which you played a
big role in, which was Studio fifty four. I was
a young guy, came to New York in nineteen seventy seven,
just about the time Studio fifty four open, and I
was there a lot, and honestly, it was probably a
(16:08):
turning point for me. I'd come from Chicago, grew up
in Mississippi. I'd never seen anything like it. How would
you describe what Studio fifty four did the culture.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
The interesting thing is I never really went to Studio
fifty four when it was open. At that point I
started dating Ian Schrieger, and I knew all about Studio
fifty four. I would go and see all the decorations.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
For the parties and I would I knew everything.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
That was going on, and I was making clothes for
everybody that went to Studio fifty four. It was a
very prosperous time. And the way I met Ian was
he wanted me to design Grace Jones' outfit for New
Year's Eve and her backup guys, and that was my
(17:07):
contribution to Studio fifty four.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Well, you clearly had an impact. I think even the
dorman were wearing your sleeping bag coat some cold nights. Yes,
it was something different. I think all of us in
New York certainly felt that we were witnessing a change.
How did it affect fashion for you at that moment?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You're so right that Studio fifty four had an impact.
It was a global impact, just the way London was
the right place at the right time in the sixties. Well,
New York in the seventies had an incredible energy about it.
It brought so many people to be a part of
(17:51):
this big change and the amount of talents and the
energy was extraordinary, and that was probably leave one of
the highlights of New York fashion.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And then when we started MTV in the early eighties
nineteen eighty one, you were actually the first fashion designer.
You actually and Perry Ellis were the two that sort
of showed up for MTV, like you sort of got
it that there's something else going on. By the way,
it was not only MTV, but it was cable networks.
We were going from three TV networks to thirty TV
(18:25):
networks and sort of mind blowing to those of us
who had come from a very restricted TV background. How
did you think about that change going on, that sort
of post Studio fifty four change.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I'll never forget going to the first MTV Awards with
you and seeing Madonna, and that was such a great
point in music history that this was this award show
for a new concept in how you could see me
(19:00):
music and hear it, and it was bold and amazing
and everybody was just blown away and it captured the culture.
It captured everything that was going on and including fashion.
I just fell in love with it. I was so
(19:21):
overwhelmed with excitement. And I remember I had this incredible
budget with one of the companies I was doing my
sweats collection with, and I had a lot of money
to do whatever I wanted, and so I was sure
that there would be a fashion TV that would be
(19:43):
like MTV, where you could see fashion with music and culture.
And so I did these films and I even won
an award for two of the films, but nobody could
see them anywhere because nobody Buddy had the goal and
the balls that you had to just land this out
(20:06):
and not get out of the park to do that.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
For fashion, what.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Was interesting is the ancillary impact we had. And one
of the things we realized, there are two things we
realized is that unless you were super super famous, no
one knew what the musical artists looked like, because how
would you know the no internet. This stuff was not
usually literal pictures on albums, and so for the first time,
(20:31):
we sort of made people who did music celebrities. And
I remember the first five or six months of MTV,
we would have artists constantly coming up and saying, my god.
People stopped me on the street and said, I saw
you on MTV. The other thing that we had was
the impact on fashion is hadn't thought about it, but
we realized that TV networks that really controlled access to
(20:54):
what Americans knew about culture. And when we kicked with MTV,
we started showing these fashions that people in Middle America
had never seen. They didn't know what was going on
in New York or CBGB's or London or anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It's so true, and it was very organic because on
some of the very early performances and videos on MTV,
I saw almost my full collection worn on a screen
and thought, oh my god. And I had no idea.
They were just buying these things and wearing them.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And that also.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Had a big impact on my business. Music to people
had always been my customers, but.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Now it was really this was definitely a real connection.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I had more Math and Magic right after this quick break,
Welcome back to Math and Magic. Let's hear more from
my conversation Dorma Kamali before we jump to the future
to today. Well, I'm going to go eaven a little farther.
(22:09):
What lessons did you learn from your childhood that have
helped you in life and your career. What was formative
there for you?
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I think being.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
First generation, having a mother who was an immigrant finding
her way, being an incredible image for me to follow,
her work ethic, her belief in anything is possible and
(22:42):
that it can happen in this country. All of that
I am really really grateful for. I've never ever believed
in my heart that something wasn't possible. I believed and
I still do, that everything is possible. And she taught
me that as an immigrant. So that's really deep and
(23:06):
I'm incredibly grateful for that childhood experience.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
You have the mind of an artist and certainly the
instincts of a business person. Have a huge name, an
iconic brand, some of the great products in the history
of fashion. But you never sold your business everybody else did.
Why not?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
At the core, I'm a creative person. I never wanted
to be the most famous or the richest designer in
the world. I just wanted to be creative every day.
And so the idea that I would have people telling me, no,
(23:45):
we don't want you to do that AI project that
doesn't fit in with the business plan, I would be crazy.
Right now if somebody told me that. So that's basically it.
My purpose has always been to live a life and
protect that. I guess I decided I'll figure out a
(24:06):
way to make it work. And I don't really look
at money as the most important thing.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
So you come up with these ideas, but you run
a business. How do you harness them in the business
ideas too?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In time, what's happened is I've learned to treat my
business creatively the way I treat the designing part of it,
the way I look at design. And so I take
the challenge of this four times a year, as we
(24:42):
designed four collections a year, incorporate it into the challenge
of running a business, but also making it fun and
having other things that we do.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Like a podcast and like many other things.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And I I think by incorporating the creative into every
aspect of what I do, I think about the business
and I also thrive as a creative person.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
You've talked about you do your business to give you
complete creative control. I actually was a creative guy, and
I went to the business side because I simplistically thought, ooh,
if I run the business, I don't have to convince
anyone it's a good idea and can do whatever I
want to do. What I failed to realize was once
I'm the business person, I don't have time to be
the creative person anymore. Somehow you figured out how to
(25:33):
do both. How do you manage that combination.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
One thing that I find incredibly helpful is asking advice
and listening to the advice. And there are times where
I think, I don't know if that's the best advice
I've been given, But just really listening and then going
to sleep and letting the little spirit dance all over
(25:59):
the place and then telling me what to do in
the morning is kind of the method to how I
kind of balance it. Like you said, when you're involved
in one part of it.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
When I do the collection, I have.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
To trust that everyone will follow the plan and then
I can fully immerse myself in the collection. And I
need some time to do that and then I'll regroup
with them after. So a lot of it is time
management and a lot of it is just thinking of
(26:35):
a better way when it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But it's tricky.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I mean, you're right, you think you have a plan,
But the better you get at what you're doing, then
the more time. You need to do it because you
keep thinking of new ideas in better ways. And it's
also addictive. It's very addictive when you find that risk them.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Let's jump to AI and know you love AI and
you have immersed yourself in it. What does it mean
for fashion, for marketing and for you.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
My first thought about what AI could mean to me
personally and for the kind of business I have came
to me in Abu Dhabi talking to scientists who had
an idea that they wanted to talk to me about
(27:33):
about doing a fashion website. And it sounded incredible, but
I think when they said they wanted to download my brain.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
I kind of like, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And then I thought, you know, the idea is so good,
and I've been a designer for fifty seven years and
I have this archive that is pure nor mcmalley made
be I should think about using AI to extend the
(28:06):
life of the company way beyond me. And so ultimately
I've found an AI is still in its very early stages.
But two years ago I found a way to have
a program built that would be custom and exclusively protecting
(28:28):
my IP and not having anything contaminated. Then I took
a short course at MIT to understand AI, to understand
the language, to understand how to write a good prompt,
and just really to get it so that when I
had ideas, they would be based on things that could
(28:49):
be done. And so I've already started to use the
program to generate Norma Kamali designs from the Norma Kamali archive.
And so it's kind of like car Lagerfeldt went to Chanell,
(29:11):
was hired to carry the brand forward, and what did
he do? He went to her archive and respected it
and just did a magnificent job for many many years
and created beautiful Chanel thereafter. AI is my car Lagerfeld.
I've also found another way to use it that is
(29:33):
totally creative and very exciting. I use it as a
creative tool. And most people don't think that AI is
creative and can hurt creativity. But in fact, the thing
everybody has to really keep in mind is AI does
(29:55):
not have a soul, does not have passion, does not
have an motion or feelings. It is in need of
a spirit like that, and once it is given that
from a human, then it becomes genius. Then it does
(30:17):
these things that are almost better than human, and in
many cases we will see even better than human. But
it needs the passion, the spirit, the emotion, and the
soul to begin with, and can't live without those ingredients.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
As we close the episode, we want to close two
pieces of advice. If someone wants to be the next
Norma Kamali, if that's even possible, what would you advise
them to do?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yes, so I would advise them not to be the
next Norma Kamali and to obviously be their authentic selves,
which is a big task. A lot of people have
a problem being confident in their authentic selves. If they
are interested in design, I would recommend that they take
(31:09):
their creative skills and keep nourishing them. But I would
also recommend learning as much as possible about AI, about
how to use AI, what the abilities are, and they
keep expanding. I'm going to be ready to take another
(31:31):
course at MIT because so much is happening so quickly.
But I think it's a new way for designers to
look at how they can build a business and creativity
for the future. I've already spoken to MIT about this
n Yu to say, I think there should be a
(31:51):
course on generative AI for creatives because that with the
natural instinct to be creative is what we are going
to need going forward.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Second piece of advice. If you could go back in
time and give your twenty one year old self some advice,
what would that advice be.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
I would just leave her alone.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
She knew much more than I know now, or she
thought she knew much, and I know now I'm not
as smart as she was, to be honest, so I'd
leave her alone.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
She's too much trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
We usually end each episode with shout outs because this
is called math and magic, the creative and the analytical.
In your case, you've been on the creative side and
the business side. What shout out would you give for
sort of the great you can think of on the
creative side and the great person you can think of
on the business side.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
There are so many people I admire and respect, and
it's really hard to pick, but I I think people
who are innovatives in their business side and their creative side,
and not just because we're having a conversation, but I
(33:12):
think you're one of those people who literally changed a
whole culture with an idea that you made real. That's
a biggie that's really really big, and like what you've
done just in the culture of music alone through the years,
(33:34):
in so many ways is really unbelievable, and truth be told,
it's not because you're asked a question.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
If somebody would ask.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Me, there are names I would mention and you would
be clearly one of those names.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
You are so nice, Norma. I have enjoyed our friendship
over many, many decades, and I really appreciate you sharing
your stories and lessons today. There as usual, both interesting
and unique. Thanks. Here are a few things I picked
(34:10):
up from my conversation with Norma. One, don't get too comfortable.
You can build a decades long career by sticking with
what you know. Culture is always changing and you must
adapt with it to remain relevant. Norma has consistently pushed
yourself and disrupted her own brand. It could be a
challenge to the company, but will always pay off. Two.
(34:33):
Run your business creatively. Norma prizes and protects her creative freedom.
It's one of the reasons she started her own business
so she could call the shops. But managing that business
while creating four collections a year isn't easy. Norma has
succeeded by doing what she does best, being creative, she
makes sure the business side of her brand is full
(34:53):
of passion and joy, just like the design side. Three.
AI works best when used by innovative, passionate people. A
lot of folks are afraid of AI. Norma has long
been at the forefront of merging her creative pursuits with
technological advances. She's confident AI is the next chapter and
can never replace humans because it doesn't have the human spirit.
(35:17):
But with a person's passion behind it, AI can build
something incredible and push us all forward. I'm Bob Pittman.
Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a
production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is created and hosted
by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney Rosenbloom for booking
and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat.
The Math and Magic team is Jessica Crimechitch and Baheed Fraser.
Our executive producers are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Until next time,
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night,
or I'll wake up in the morning, and these incredible
ideas are right in the front of my brain and
I'm excited by them. Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to this episode of Math
and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we've
got someone who has succeeded through generations of innovation, tapping
into the moment and using technology and creativity to build
and build and build her business and her brand. It's
fashion icon Norma Kamali Normal was a New York kid
(00:49):
who went to school in New York and studied fashion
illustration at fit Fashion Institute of Technology, but fell out
of place with the fashion of that time. So after graduation,
she took a as an airline clerk at Northwest Orian
Airlines and use the perks of the job to go
to London almost every weekend for four years. And that
opened her mind to culture, art, fashion and different points
(01:13):
of view, all the things that propel her to success
in fashion. She was there at the great moments, including
a front row seat at Studio fifty four and the
transformative effect it had on culture, and how it elevated
designers to celebrity status. She's also had a hand in
technology and art and has always been ready to adapt
to the new. She's both creative and savvy in business.
(01:36):
She's a longtime friend and a wonderful person. Normal. Welcome, Well,
thank you, Bob.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
That one's very nice. I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, we're going to dig into a lot of meat today,
but first I want to do you in sixty seconds.
Were you ready to go?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I'm ready?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Okay, here we go. Cats are dogs, dogs, early riser,
night out, early coffee or tea, tea, streaming TV or podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Oh, I'm a big podcaster.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Sneakers or heels to say both bright colors or neutrals.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
I do both on that one.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Also, okay, powers or London London, Andy Warhol or Halston
Andy Warhol, your sleeping bag, coat or your swimwear.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I can't answer that it's too personal. I can't answer that.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I just love all the children. Yes, all time favorite
musical artist, Eda James. Smartest person you know, Gosh, I am.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Very lucky to know a lot, I would say, Martin Edelman,
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
There your go to exercise routine.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I've been doing physy fifty seven since two thousand and six.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Childhood hero Michaelangelo Believe it or.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Not, technology you can't live without.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Oh my god, AI favored decade now totally now.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
And the best advice you ever got Know.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Thyself, my sixth grade teacher.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Okay, let's jump down. What is so remarkable about you
is that you started in the sixties and here you
are today, still going strong. There's a huge lesson in
this for marketers and other business people. How have you
managed to be relevant through all the changes in society
and culture and how have you adjusted, adapted and connected.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Understanding the importance of disruption is key. All of a sudden,
you're off on a path that the rest of the
planet is not even thinking about anymore. Of the are off.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
On something else, and so the idea of disruption that
you create yourself is critical. And there is no better
time to explain the importance of that than right now.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
When you think about disruption, do you intend to disrupt
or do you just see something different and you move
toward that and it turns out to be disruptive?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
For me as a designer, I'm more intuitive, So I
think that something is not right, something's not right, and
then ideas come to me, and I find the ideas
start to make changes in things that are going on
between my last collection and now everyone in this company
(04:36):
wants to kill me, basically because I've disrupted each and
everyone their lives and what they do because I felt
we were on the verge of getting too comfortable. We
need to really make a big shift, and I was
doing it personally, but I wasn't taking the company with me.
(04:56):
And so hopefully they don't hate me too much longer
and settle in and feel good about where the level
we're at now and where we're going.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
You know, let's talk about creativity for a second. You
said you're intuitive and the ideas come to you. Where
are those ideas come from?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night,
or I'll wake up in the morning and these incredible
ideas are right in the front of my brain and
I'm excited by them, and I don't know where they
come from. It's not something I heard before, it's not
(05:39):
something I saw anywhere. And I just really feel like
there's something communicating with me in some way. I really
have that experience, and I've had it for as long
as I can remember, and I almost felt guilty that
I don't know if this is me or something else
(06:01):
giving it to me, and I'm sending it out there.
But now more and more I hear other people have
had the same experience, so there must be something about that.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I don't want to question it. It's working for me,
so I'm going with the flow.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You know, it's funny you talk about that, because I
spend a lot of time thinking about it. I like,
you wake up at about four or five in the
morning with an idea and I can't go back to
sleep until I write it down on its crystal clear,
or I'm in a nice hot meditative shower and suddenly
that speech I couldn't think about, or the line or
the whatever, it just comes into my brain. And some
(06:40):
people have read some on it and say, what we're
doing is that when we get to the meditative state,
when we get to the level that we've now connected
and ideas can flow. Some say from our subconscious, which
is always working on stuff into our conscious. Others a
little more spiritual will say it's coming from the universe,
consciousness or whatever. But if you'll let it. Every answer
(07:04):
will come to you, but you got to get down
to sort of whatever's that meditative state for you. And
interesting that that does it for you too.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I agree with that. I think that we need restoration.
But the spirit never sleeps. The spirit is always active,
the spirit is.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Always in motion.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And what happens is it is possible that that spirit
is then bringing back something to us when we wait.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's interesting. David Eagleman, the neuroscientist from Stanford. He says
consciousness is like the broom closet in the mansion of
our mind, that most of us is not the conscious us,
but it's the subconscious us. Let's go back a little
bit in time more sort of your business origin story.
You spent all that time in London at a time
(07:57):
when it was happening there in New York was clearly
behind the times mid sixties. What did that exposure in
London do to you? What did it open up in you?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
This was a big revolution as it is now right,
and the revolution then was really the change from where
we were and then going into this baby boomer culture
that just wore down everything. I remember going to London
(08:27):
for the first time and not really knowing what was
going on there or what was about to go on,
and I just wanted to start traveling. And I stayed
at this little boarding house in Sloan Square, and I
remember walking down the King's Road and everything was gray, gray,
(08:48):
tweet gray sky, gray buildings, gray was raining, and I
all of a sudden saw this one store and the
whole front had a big colorful billboardy type cover on
the top of the entrance, and this music was blaring
(09:13):
out of the store, and I thought, what is that.
I was like a mok to a flame. I felt
the hair on my arms rising, and I was just
drawn to this sound and to the color, and at
that moment I knew something was happening, something really different
(09:37):
was happening, and none of that was in New York
or in the US yet. And I was there every
weekend for four years, and through every weekend, I fortunately
was in all the places where all of this was happening.
And the musicians. My best friend in London's husband worked
(10:00):
for Peter Grant, who was led Zeppelin's manager, notorious manager,
and so I was staying at her house and they were.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Always at her house, and there was all of.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
These things happening around me, and I was swept up,
totally swept up. I mean, can you imagine having a
conversation with Jimmy Hendrix. There, I am having a conversation
with Jimmy Hendrix. I would come back to work and
sit at the at my UNIVAC computer desk at the Airlines,
(10:32):
and I couldn't even say who Jimmy Hendrix was because
nobody would know because it was that early. And then
when it started to come to the US, I saw
how this thing just exploded. And I was not sort
of a fashion of the matching hat.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Gloves mad men. Look, I was never into that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And then I saw, oh, this is me, this is freedom,
this is anything. Be creative, be original, be innovative. And
so that message was imprinted and never left me.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I'm getting in the elution here. But you opened the
successful store Manhattan originally bringing clothes from London. Why did
you then start doing your own clothes? What was that
jump from I'm going to sell these clothes up seeing
in London to my own stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Well, I had some ideas that I wasn't seeing anywhere,
and it's very interesting. I was fearless and I just
did whatever I was making eighty dollars a week, Bob,
when I came up with this idea of getting a store.
I found a store for two hundred and eighty five
dollars a month, believe it or not, and it was
(11:52):
in a basement, and that's where I started selling clothes.
And then I thought, you know, I'm going to try
and do some things. And what was fascinating was in
six MONTHSS I had a full page in Harper's Bazaarre
of a skirt I made, and I was like, what
(12:13):
is what is happening? So it gave me inspiration to
go on. But it was total ignorance. It was lack
of knowledge or understanding of the downside risk. I just
had this sense of confidence that I just don't understand
(12:34):
where it came from.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
But I added, you went through a divorce and basically
started over under the on my own Omo Normakomali brand.
How did you make that jump? I mean that's got
to be pretty scary. You get some success, leave it
behind and start over again.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
First of all, when you get married at nineteen for
all the wrong reasons. He was a terrific guy and
believed in me completely and thought that I was the
most talented thing ever.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It was a dream.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And then you know, in that ten years between nineteen
and thirty, you really are developing as a human being.
And when we met, I could go out dancing every
night and just be the happiest person in the world.
And we loved to dance together. We would win money
(13:30):
at dance contests and it was like great. But then
when we started the business, finally our lives changed so much.
I was working all the time and I was so
happy to have found what my love and passion would be.
(13:50):
And he wanted a different kind of life, a more
carefree life. He wasn't as interested in the business as
I was, and especially at the time, I think felt
intimidated that I was so into this business and he
(14:12):
was uncomfortable with the idea of it. So eventually, you know,
people behave in a crazy way, and it got to
the point where I think I need to leave this.
And he also controlled the money, and I had ninety
(14:33):
eight dollars and it was a tough decision to leave
because I had no power to be self sufficient, but
I just did it because I thought I was just
going to lose my soul if I stayed there. And
being there was everything to me. So it was a
(14:54):
big shocker, and I had no idea, I had no plan,
but I knew that it was just not a good
place for me to be, and so I left. And
then I finally told people that I needed help and
that I needed to find way to borrow money or
(15:14):
do something. And it was a big ask because like
I said, I had ninety eight dollars, but I could
not believe the amount of people that really were so
incredibly generous and helped me in my first business learning
was paying everybody back and being religious about it, and
(15:37):
I realized the importance of really knowing about money and
being in control of how all of that works in
a business.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Obviously, it worked out for you. You opened your famous retail
boutique Alo was fifty sixth Street. But I want to
jump to one other cultural moment which you played a
big role in, which was Studio fifty four. I was
a young guy, came to New York in nineteen seventy seven,
just about the time Studio fifty four open, and I
was there a lot, and honestly, it was probably a
(16:08):
turning point for me. I'd come from Chicago, grew up
in Mississippi. I'd never seen anything like it. How would
you describe what Studio fifty four did the culture.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
The interesting thing is I never really went to Studio
fifty four when it was open. At that point I
started dating Ian Schrieger, and I knew all about Studio
fifty four. I would go and see all the decorations.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
For the parties and I would I knew everything.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
That was going on, and I was making clothes for
everybody that went to Studio fifty four. It was a
very prosperous time. And the way I met Ian was
he wanted me to design Grace Jones' outfit for New
Year's Eve and her backup guys, and that was my
(17:07):
contribution to Studio fifty four.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Well, you clearly had an impact. I think even the
dorman were wearing your sleeping bag coat some cold nights. Yes,
it was something different. I think all of us in
New York certainly felt that we were witnessing a change.
How did it affect fashion for you at that moment?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You're so right that Studio fifty four had an impact.
It was a global impact, just the way London was
the right place at the right time in the sixties. Well,
New York in the seventies had an incredible energy about it.
It brought so many people to be a part of
(17:51):
this big change and the amount of talents and the
energy was extraordinary, and that was probably leave one of
the highlights of New York fashion.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And then when we started MTV in the early eighties
nineteen eighty one, you were actually the first fashion designer.
You actually and Perry Ellis were the two that sort
of showed up for MTV, like you sort of got
it that there's something else going on. By the way,
it was not only MTV, but it was cable networks.
We were going from three TV networks to thirty TV
(18:25):
networks and sort of mind blowing to those of us
who had come from a very restricted TV background. How
did you think about that change going on, that sort
of post Studio fifty four change.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I'll never forget going to the first MTV Awards with
you and seeing Madonna, and that was such a great
point in music history that this was this award show
for a new concept in how you could see me
(19:00):
music and hear it, and it was bold and amazing
and everybody was just blown away and it captured the culture.
It captured everything that was going on and including fashion.
I just fell in love with it. I was so
(19:21):
overwhelmed with excitement. And I remember I had this incredible
budget with one of the companies I was doing my
sweats collection with, and I had a lot of money
to do whatever I wanted, and so I was sure
that there would be a fashion TV that would be
(19:43):
like MTV, where you could see fashion with music and culture.
And so I did these films and I even won
an award for two of the films, but nobody could
see them anywhere because nobody Buddy had the goal and
the balls that you had to just land this out
(20:06):
and not get out of the park to do that.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
For fashion, what.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Was interesting is the ancillary impact we had. And one
of the things we realized, there are two things we
realized is that unless you were super super famous, no
one knew what the musical artists looked like, because how
would you know the no internet. This stuff was not
usually literal pictures on albums, and so for the first time,
(20:31):
we sort of made people who did music celebrities. And
I remember the first five or six months of MTV,
we would have artists constantly coming up and saying, my god.
People stopped me on the street and said, I saw
you on MTV. The other thing that we had was
the impact on fashion is hadn't thought about it, but
we realized that TV networks that really controlled access to
(20:54):
what Americans knew about culture. And when we kicked with MTV,
we started showing these fashions that people in Middle America
had never seen. They didn't know what was going on
in New York or CBGB's or London or anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It's so true, and it was very organic because on
some of the very early performances and videos on MTV,
I saw almost my full collection worn on a screen
and thought, oh my god. And I had no idea.
They were just buying these things and wearing them.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And that also.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Had a big impact on my business. Music to people
had always been my customers, but.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Now it was really this was definitely a real connection.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I had more Math and Magic right after this quick break,
Welcome back to Math and Magic. Let's hear more from
my conversation Dorma Kamali before we jump to the future
to today. Well, I'm going to go eaven a little farther.
(22:09):
What lessons did you learn from your childhood that have
helped you in life and your career. What was formative
there for you?
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I think being.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
First generation, having a mother who was an immigrant finding
her way, being an incredible image for me to follow,
her work ethic, her belief in anything is possible and
(22:42):
that it can happen in this country. All of that
I am really really grateful for. I've never ever believed
in my heart that something wasn't possible. I believed and
I still do, that everything is possible. And she taught
me that as an immigrant. So that's really deep and
(23:06):
I'm incredibly grateful for that childhood experience.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
You have the mind of an artist and certainly the
instincts of a business person. Have a huge name, an
iconic brand, some of the great products in the history
of fashion. But you never sold your business everybody else did.
Why not?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
At the core, I'm a creative person. I never wanted
to be the most famous or the richest designer in
the world. I just wanted to be creative every day.
And so the idea that I would have people telling me, no,
(23:45):
we don't want you to do that AI project that
doesn't fit in with the business plan, I would be crazy.
Right now if somebody told me that. So that's basically it.
My purpose has always been to live a life and
protect that. I guess I decided I'll figure out a
(24:06):
way to make it work. And I don't really look
at money as the most important thing.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
So you come up with these ideas, but you run
a business. How do you harness them in the business
ideas too?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In time, what's happened is I've learned to treat my
business creatively the way I treat the designing part of it,
the way I look at design. And so I take
the challenge of this four times a year, as we
(24:42):
designed four collections a year, incorporate it into the challenge
of running a business, but also making it fun and
having other things that we do.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Like a podcast and like many other things.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And I I think by incorporating the creative into every
aspect of what I do, I think about the business
and I also thrive as a creative person.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
You've talked about you do your business to give you
complete creative control. I actually was a creative guy, and
I went to the business side because I simplistically thought, ooh,
if I run the business, I don't have to convince
anyone it's a good idea and can do whatever I
want to do. What I failed to realize was once
I'm the business person, I don't have time to be
the creative person anymore. Somehow you figured out how to
(25:33):
do both. How do you manage that combination.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
One thing that I find incredibly helpful is asking advice
and listening to the advice. And there are times where
I think, I don't know if that's the best advice
I've been given, But just really listening and then going
to sleep and letting the little spirit dance all over
(25:59):
the place and then telling me what to do in
the morning is kind of the method to how I
kind of balance it. Like you said, when you're involved
in one part of it.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
When I do the collection, I have.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
To trust that everyone will follow the plan and then
I can fully immerse myself in the collection. And I
need some time to do that and then I'll regroup
with them after. So a lot of it is time
management and a lot of it is just thinking of
(26:35):
a better way when it doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But it's tricky.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I mean, you're right, you think you have a plan,
But the better you get at what you're doing, then
the more time. You need to do it because you
keep thinking of new ideas in better ways. And it's
also addictive. It's very addictive when you find that risk them.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Let's jump to AI and know you love AI and
you have immersed yourself in it. What does it mean
for fashion, for marketing and for you.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
My first thought about what AI could mean to me
personally and for the kind of business I have came
to me in Abu Dhabi talking to scientists who had
an idea that they wanted to talk to me about
(27:33):
about doing a fashion website. And it sounded incredible, but
I think when they said they wanted to download my brain.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
I kind of like, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And then I thought, you know, the idea is so good,
and I've been a designer for fifty seven years and
I have this archive that is pure nor mcmalley made
be I should think about using AI to extend the
(28:06):
life of the company way beyond me. And so ultimately
I've found an AI is still in its very early stages.
But two years ago I found a way to have
a program built that would be custom and exclusively protecting
(28:28):
my IP and not having anything contaminated. Then I took
a short course at MIT to understand AI, to understand
the language, to understand how to write a good prompt,
and just really to get it so that when I
had ideas, they would be based on things that could
(28:49):
be done. And so I've already started to use the
program to generate Norma Kamali designs from the Norma Kamali archive.
And so it's kind of like car Lagerfeldt went to Chanell,
(29:11):
was hired to carry the brand forward, and what did
he do? He went to her archive and respected it
and just did a magnificent job for many many years
and created beautiful Chanel thereafter. AI is my car Lagerfeld.
I've also found another way to use it that is
(29:33):
totally creative and very exciting. I use it as a
creative tool. And most people don't think that AI is
creative and can hurt creativity. But in fact, the thing
everybody has to really keep in mind is AI does
(29:55):
not have a soul, does not have passion, does not
have an motion or feelings. It is in need of
a spirit like that, and once it is given that
from a human, then it becomes genius. Then it does
(30:17):
these things that are almost better than human, and in
many cases we will see even better than human. But
it needs the passion, the spirit, the emotion, and the
soul to begin with, and can't live without those ingredients.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
As we close the episode, we want to close two
pieces of advice. If someone wants to be the next
Norma Kamali, if that's even possible, what would you advise
them to do?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yes, so I would advise them not to be the
next Norma Kamali and to obviously be their authentic selves,
which is a big task. A lot of people have
a problem being confident in their authentic selves. If they
are interested in design, I would recommend that they take
(31:09):
their creative skills and keep nourishing them. But I would
also recommend learning as much as possible about AI, about
how to use AI, what the abilities are, and they
keep expanding. I'm going to be ready to take another
(31:31):
course at MIT because so much is happening so quickly.
But I think it's a new way for designers to
look at how they can build a business and creativity
for the future. I've already spoken to MIT about this
n Yu to say, I think there should be a
(31:51):
course on generative AI for creatives because that with the
natural instinct to be creative is what we are going
to need going forward.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Second piece of advice. If you could go back in
time and give your twenty one year old self some advice,
what would that advice be.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
I would just leave her alone.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
She knew much more than I know now, or she
thought she knew much, and I know now I'm not
as smart as she was, to be honest, so I'd
leave her alone.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
She's too much trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
We usually end each episode with shout outs because this
is called math and magic, the creative and the analytical.
In your case, you've been on the creative side and
the business side. What shout out would you give for
sort of the great you can think of on the
creative side and the great person you can think of
on the business side.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
There are so many people I admire and respect, and
it's really hard to pick, but I I think people
who are innovatives in their business side and their creative side,
and not just because we're having a conversation, but I
(33:12):
think you're one of those people who literally changed a
whole culture with an idea that you made real. That's
a biggie that's really really big, and like what you've
done just in the culture of music alone through the years,
(33:34):
in so many ways is really unbelievable, and truth be told,
it's not because you're asked a question.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
If somebody would ask.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Me, there are names I would mention and you would
be clearly one of those names.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
You are so nice, Norma. I have enjoyed our friendship
over many, many decades, and I really appreciate you sharing
your stories and lessons today. There as usual, both interesting
and unique. Thanks. Here are a few things I picked
(34:10):
up from my conversation with Norma. One, don't get too comfortable.
You can build a decades long career by sticking with
what you know. Culture is always changing and you must
adapt with it to remain relevant. Norma has consistently pushed
yourself and disrupted her own brand. It could be a
challenge to the company, but will always pay off. Two.
(34:33):
Run your business creatively. Norma prizes and protects her creative freedom.
It's one of the reasons she started her own business
so she could call the shops. But managing that business
while creating four collections a year isn't easy. Norma has
succeeded by doing what she does best, being creative, she
makes sure the business side of her brand is full
(34:53):
of passion and joy, just like the design side. Three.
AI works best when used by innovative, passionate people. A
lot of folks are afraid of AI. Norma has long
been at the forefront of merging her creative pursuits with
technological advances. She's confident AI is the next chapter and
can never replace humans because it doesn't have the human spirit.
(35:17):
But with a person's passion behind it, AI can build
something incredible and push us all forward. I'm Bob Pittman.
Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a
production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is created and hosted
by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney Rosenbloom for booking
and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat.
The Math and Magic team is Jessica Crimechitch and Baheed Fraser.
Our executive producers are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Until next time,
Host
Bob Pittman
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