December 6, 2023 • 25 mins
Many observers have tried to pinpoint the specific events that lead to Lennon-McCartney, the formidable songwriting partnership, transitioning to Lennon v. McCartney. But the fact is there is no single truth regarding why the beloved duo split. So instead of investigating the why, we look at the aftermath: legal battles, hurtful accusations in song and, ultimately, a sense of resolution. “Too Many People” opens Paul and Linda McCartney’s 1971 album, “RAM” and serves as an opening to explore Lennon-McCartney’s dissolution ahead of ultimately resolving their differences and rekindling a friendship.
“McCartney: A Life in Lyrics” is a co-production between iHeart Media, MPL and Pushkin Industries.
The series was produced by Pejk Malinovski and Sara McCrea; written by Sara McCrea; edited by Dan O’Donnell and Sophie Crane; mastered by Jason Gambrell with sound design by Pejk Malinovski. The series is executive produced by Leital Molad, Justin Richmond, Lee Eastman, Scott Rodger and Paul McCartney.
Thanks to Lee Eastman, Richard Ewbank, Scott Rodger, Aoife Corbett and Steve Ithell.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What about too Many People?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Two or eight People is on an album called ram.
It was at a time when John was firing missiles
at me. I don't know what he hoped again, other
than punching me in the face. And this kind of
annoyed me. Obviously, I suddenly decided to turn my missiles
(00:48):
on him.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
I'm Paul, will do And I've been fortunate to spend
time with one of the greatest songwriters of the era.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
And will you look at me? I'm going on to
I'm actually a.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Performer, That is sir Paul McCartney. We worked together on
a book looking at the of more than one hundred
and fifty of his songs, and we recorded many hours
of our conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Oh she'm a songwriter?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
My god? Well that that crypture, homie.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
This is McCartney, A life in lyrics, a masterclass, a memoir,
and an improvised journey with one of the most iconic
figures in popular music. In this episode, too Many People
that you.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Touban now?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Can you.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Who broke up the Beatles? Was it Paul McCartney or
was it John Lennon? Was it the death of manager
Brian Epstein? The interference of businessman Alan Klein, or somehow
the mere presence of Yogo Ono. No matter how many
times this question has been asked, trying to answer it
(02:22):
seems futile. There are many reasons why the Beatles broke up,
so in this episode we won't be trying to find
a definitive cause for the Beatles breakup. Instead, we will
be telling the story of its aftermath.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I was keeping largely quiet about John and the Beatles
sort of split up. I didn't really have many accusations
to fling but he was flinging quite a few. Being John,
they were quite hurtful bobs to be flinging around, and
(03:04):
I was the body they were being flung at. So
I was having to accept this.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
But in a nineteen sixty nine business meeting, John Lennon
met an announcement.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
There was a few of us there, and he said, oh,
I've been wanting to tell you this, but I'm leaving
the Beatles. Well a bit shocked, it was, you know, me,
George and Ringo, we're all a bit shocked.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Why why why? And I think I've told you.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
I remember him saying, oh, this is quite quite exciting.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
That was very John, that was sort of what you
admired about John.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
It was.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
It was a bit of a nooney in the nicest
possible way.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
It was like breaking up with someone.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yeah, and that's what he said.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's like a divorce, and he had just had a divorce,
so he was saying, yeah, you know, there's an excitement
to this. And I think obviously we whilst all of
us could see what he meant, those of you left
in the opposite.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Side of the borderline.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
It's not quite so funny.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
When John Lennon announced his departure from the group, it
was clear to the other three Beatles that the band
was done for good.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
It was such a unit and such a foursome and
I don't think any of us, I mean, we joked
about it, you know, we joked about forming a group
called the Threetles.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
That was pretty good, but you know, it was never
anything more than the joke.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
In that same meeting where John Lennon announced he was
leaving the group, he also told his band Meds that
he was set to go along with the manager Alan Klein.
McCartney was resistant to trusting Alan Klein, who was already
known for his mishandling of the Rolling Stones.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
The whole story in an absolute nutshell because we were
having a group meeting and John appeared at it and
he said, I've just been to see this guy Alan
Klein in the Dorchester me and Joko. He's promised Joko
an exhibition up in Syracuse, and I think this guy's great.
(05:46):
Oh and by the way, I'm leaving the group. So
that was basically how all of that happened. And it
was looking like Alan Clyn would have because it was
three to one.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
The other two went with John.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So it's looking like Alan Klein was going to own
our entire mental empire, which is an idea that I was.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Not too keen on.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I just thought, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know
this guy has got such a bad reputation, and good
old John Johnny goes, oh, if he's that badly talked about,
he can't be all bad, you know. To John, there
was this kind of distorted way of thinking.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
What followed was a series of lawsuits between McCartney and
the rest of the band over who would control the
rights to their music.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So all in all I had to I had to
fight them for.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
My bit of the Beatles and in actual fact for
their bit of the Beatles, which many years later they
kind of you.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Know, realized, realized that almost thanked me for. And nowadays,
you know, people get it. They get it, and.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
As I had to fight them, I think they thought, oh,
you know, and felt they were the ones who were
being hurt by this. But the hurt that went down
during that period though, was them feeling hurt, me feeling hurt.
But John being John, John would be the one who
(07:30):
would want to write a hurtful songs his kind of bag.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
I don't believe in Peters.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I just believe in me.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
In his nineteen seventy song God, Lennon announced the end
of the Beatles dream Dreams Over.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
What can I say?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And to publicize the release of his new album, he
was interviewed by Rolling Stone Fonder and publisher Yan Winner.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
I no longer believe in in myth, you know, and
Beatles is another myth. I don't believe in it. The
dream's over, you know. And I'm not just talking about
the Beatles as though, I'm talking about the generation thing.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know.
Speaker 7 (08:32):
The dreams over like it's over, you know, and we
got to well, I have any of you personally got
to get down to so called reality.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
John would do it in some of the songs. He
was writing some of the comments about how the Beatles
did nothing.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It was rubbish, The Beatles was crap.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And you know I told you Yoko Saint Paul never
did anything. All he did was book the studio.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
It looks so awful. When I said I don't like
this and I don't like that, it's just that I
wouldn't you know. I don't like many of the Beatles
records either. You know, my own taste is different from
that which I've played sometimes, which is called cop out
to make money over whatever or because I didn't know
any better.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
So I'm having to read all this stuff and I'll
there one hand, they.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Go, oh, fuck off, your fucking idiot, and that's my
main sentiment.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
But on the other hand, it's like, what why would
you say that?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Why would you want to be? What is it about me?
Speaker 5 (09:31):
Like you're annoyed at me or you're jealous or what
is it?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
You know?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
And John had all of those emotions wrapped up into
a ball of lenon is.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
That in too many people? His nineteen seventies version of
a disc track, McCartney made a veiled response to Lennon's
harsh comments.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I meant, I think literally people sort of grabbing for
a piece of the cake, a slice.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Piece of the pie, also the apple.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah exactly. Yeah. So I think that because it had
all been just a little bit weird and a bit nasty,
I was just basically saying, let's be sensible, let's be peaceful.
Let's you know, we we've we had a lot going
and what's actually split us up is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
The business stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
That's pretty pathetic, really, so let's try and be peaceful.
Speaker 8 (10:54):
Weird.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I think it was quite mild, but the idea of
too many people preaching practices was aimed at him and
yoga telling everyone what they.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Ought to do.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
You should do this, should do that, And I just
got fed up being told what to do. So I
wrote the song, and it was you made your first mistake,
you know, you took your lucky break and broke it
in two. Was me basically saying, you've made this break, so.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Good luck with it. But I say it was pretty mild.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I didn't really come out with any savagery. The first
person and the chorus was basically that was all the
anger I could muster. And when I did the vocal
(12:06):
one of the second line, too many reaching for a
piece of cake. I remember singing it, and if you
listen to it, it says, piss off cake, too many
people reaching for a piss off cake.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Many reading.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I was just getting back at him, but I wasn't
really in it many.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
Lucky.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Despite the mild nature of the insults in too Many People,
Lennon was fired up and responded with the song how
do You Sleep on his nineteen seventy one album Imagine.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yes, I understand some of the stuff he was doing.
(13:30):
He actually had Alan Klein and Yoko in the room
suggesting lyrics. So all you ever did was yesterday, apparently,
was Alan Clein's suggestion.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So John McCay, hey, hey, great, put that in. And
I can see the joy in the fun and the
laughs they had doing it. But I've got to work
very hard to not take this too seriously. But in
the back of my mind, I'm going, wait a minute,
all I ever did was yesterday. Yeah, well, it's funny,
it's funny pun But all I ever did was yesterday.
(14:06):
Let him be Long Wining Road, Elean repe Lady Madonna,
fuck you John, Too many people sharing party lines? I
(14:35):
don't know what that means except people used to have
party lines and you coming on their conversations.
Speaker 9 (14:42):
But the party line of Paul is also tolling the
party line.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You know, this is our position here, and we're fixed
in that position.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Basically, all of these things were just whether they were
actually physically right, whether John and Joko slept in late
or not. Yeah, they were all veiled references to people
thinking that the only truth is their own truth, which
(15:13):
is what was coming from John and Yoko. And you
know the thing is it was crap. War is over. Well,
no it isn't. But I get what you're saying. War
(15:41):
is over if you want it. So if enough people
want war to be over, it'll be over. I'm not
sure that's entirely true, but it's a great sentiment. It's
a nice thing to think and to say. I'd been
able to accept Yoko in the studio on a blanket
(16:01):
in front of my app I worked hard to come
to terms with that, but then when we broke up,
when everyone was now flailing around, John turned nasty. So
this is me sort of saying shut up. Really.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
You know, that's a song that has a particular purpose.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Too many people.
Speaker 9 (16:44):
Yeah, for better or worse it is, you know, getting back.
That's not really a feature of your songs much, is it.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
No, I don't do that much.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
And Jesus.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Well, McCartney's lyrics were more often about love than competition.
He enjoyed Lennon. Both wrote many songs with the intention
of impressing or even upstaging one another.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
That was the.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Nature of all competitiveness. And we're both very upfront about that.
You know, if you'd write a good one, I'd feel
like that to write a better one.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You know.
Speaker 9 (17:27):
That is a very very common phenomenon, very understandable one.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's also a great.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Thing because it's inspiration, you know, it's it's motivation.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
If you've got someone who you respect who comes up
with something rather good.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Sure it happens to everyone totally.
Speaker 10 (17:46):
You know, you'll suddenly see so and so's new poem
and think, hmm. You don't necessarily have to tell anyone no,
but in your own private mind you just think, well,
I could do that.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
There's no doubt this friendly competition contributed to the beatles
prolific output. After the band's disintegration, However, the competition between
McCartney and Lennon was no longer about who could write
a more catchy chorus or skillful bridge. It was about
who could fling the most hurt Here again is how
(18:25):
do you sleep.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Those e.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
Mis sake?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
You gotta remember I sued him in court.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I sued my friends from Liverpool Lifeline friends in court.
So there's a lot of getting over that has had
to be done.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
As much as too many people represented McCartney on the attack,
it wasn't aligned with his natural disposition. Six months later,
he made an attempt at appeasement in Dear Friend, a
song from his nineteen seventy one album Wildlife.
Speaker 8 (19:31):
Dear Friend, what's the time? Is this really the boer?
Does it really mean so much?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Do you?
Speaker 6 (19:51):
I mean?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Why is this argument going on?
Speaker 8 (19:55):
You're afraid?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is it because you're afraid of something?
Speaker 8 (20:00):
Oh? Is it true?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Are you afraid of the split up? Are you afraid
of me doing something without you?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Dear friend?
Speaker 11 (20:12):
Through the word.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
I mad love with a friend of mine?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Are you afraid of the consequences of this?
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Who knows newly?
Speaker 5 (20:29):
And then the little rhyme is or is it true?
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Is it true?
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Is all these hurtful allegations true?
Speaker 8 (20:38):
Ah, is it true?
Speaker 4 (20:52):
I was aware of the McCartney Lenon feud as it
was happening, and I heard these very public arguments in
the songs. But I've always wondered if there was indeed
a form of reconciliation. Did Lenon ever listen to Dear Friend?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would think he did.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, I would think he listened to my records, you know,
when they came out.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Did they ever respond to this in particular?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
No? No, that was not his way.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
You know, we were guys, and it's not it's not
like a boy and girl. It's like it's a guy
and guy. It's a boy and boy, and you don't,
you know.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
You don't.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Those days, you didn't release as much emotion with each other, did.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
What's the time.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Even if Lennon never explicitly addressed McCartney's olive branch, the
two did find their way back to one another.
Speaker 8 (22:06):
Means so much.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Some years later, Lennon even admitted that the anger and
lyrical attacks and songs like how Do You Sleep were
directed more towards himself than towards McCartney. Eventually, they were
able to put the hurt and negative feelings behind them
and moved forward with their friendship.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It was super, super painful, and there was a lot
of navigation of emotions to be done, a lot of
hurt to be sailed around, but we did it, and
you know, in the end was something I was very
glad of when he got.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Murdered, was that I had had.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Some really good times with him before that happened. It
would have been the worst thing in the world for
someone like me. Had he'd just been killed and we
still had bad relationship, I would have just thought, oh,
I should have, I should have, I should have, I
should have. That would have been a big guilt trip
for me. Luckily, you know, we were friendly and we
(23:20):
talked about how to bake bread.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
It seems like Paul McCartney's adoration for his childhood friend
has only deepened over time. In twenty twenty two, on
his Got Back tour, McCartney surprised his audience by bringing
Lennon back on stage. Turning away from the crowd, he
(23:49):
looked up at a video of his old friend projected
on a giant screen behind him, and together they sang
I've got a feeling, their contrasting voices washing over the crowd.
The two Beatles again joined in a musical conversation. In
(24:45):
the next episode, when I get to the bottom, I go.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Back to the top of the slot where stop.
Speaker 11 (24:55):
Go right till I get to the past.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
All an innocent carnival ride gave birth to heavy metal.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Do you don't you?
Speaker 11 (25:09):
Hmmm, tell me.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Tell me.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
McCartney. A Life in Lyrics is a co production between
iHeartMedia n p L. And Pushkin Industries.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What about too Many People?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Two or eight People is on an album called ram.
It was at a time when John was firing missiles
at me. I don't know what he hoped again, other
than punching me in the face. And this kind of
annoyed me. Obviously, I suddenly decided to turn my missiles
(00:48):
on him.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
I'm Paul, will do And I've been fortunate to spend
time with one of the greatest songwriters of the era.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
And will you look at me? I'm going on to
I'm actually a.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Performer, That is sir Paul McCartney. We worked together on
a book looking at the of more than one hundred
and fifty of his songs, and we recorded many hours
of our conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Oh she'm a songwriter?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
My god? Well that that crypture, homie.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
This is McCartney, A life in lyrics, a masterclass, a memoir,
and an improvised journey with one of the most iconic
figures in popular music. In this episode, too Many People
that you.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Touban now?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Can you.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Who broke up the Beatles? Was it Paul McCartney or
was it John Lennon? Was it the death of manager
Brian Epstein? The interference of businessman Alan Klein, or somehow
the mere presence of Yogo Ono. No matter how many
times this question has been asked, trying to answer it
(02:22):
seems futile. There are many reasons why the Beatles broke up,
so in this episode we won't be trying to find
a definitive cause for the Beatles breakup. Instead, we will
be telling the story of its aftermath.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I was keeping largely quiet about John and the Beatles
sort of split up. I didn't really have many accusations
to fling but he was flinging quite a few. Being John,
they were quite hurtful bobs to be flinging around, and
(03:04):
I was the body they were being flung at. So
I was having to accept this.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
But in a nineteen sixty nine business meeting, John Lennon
met an announcement.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
There was a few of us there, and he said, oh,
I've been wanting to tell you this, but I'm leaving
the Beatles. Well a bit shocked, it was, you know, me,
George and Ringo, we're all a bit shocked.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Why why why? And I think I've told you.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
I remember him saying, oh, this is quite quite exciting.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
That was very John, that was sort of what you
admired about John.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
It was.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
It was a bit of a nooney in the nicest
possible way.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
It was like breaking up with someone.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yeah, and that's what he said.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's like a divorce, and he had just had a divorce,
so he was saying, yeah, you know, there's an excitement
to this. And I think obviously we whilst all of
us could see what he meant, those of you left
in the opposite.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Side of the borderline.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
It's not quite so funny.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
When John Lennon announced his departure from the group, it
was clear to the other three Beatles that the band
was done for good.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
It was such a unit and such a foursome and
I don't think any of us, I mean, we joked
about it, you know, we joked about forming a group
called the Threetles.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
That was pretty good, but you know, it was never
anything more than the joke.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
In that same meeting where John Lennon announced he was
leaving the group, he also told his band Meds that
he was set to go along with the manager Alan Klein.
McCartney was resistant to trusting Alan Klein, who was already
known for his mishandling of the Rolling Stones.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
The whole story in an absolute nutshell because we were
having a group meeting and John appeared at it and
he said, I've just been to see this guy Alan
Klein in the Dorchester me and Joko. He's promised Joko
an exhibition up in Syracuse, and I think this guy's great.
(05:46):
Oh and by the way, I'm leaving the group. So
that was basically how all of that happened. And it
was looking like Alan Clyn would have because it was
three to one.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
The other two went with John.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So it's looking like Alan Klein was going to own
our entire mental empire, which is an idea that I was.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Not too keen on.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I just thought, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know
this guy has got such a bad reputation, and good
old John Johnny goes, oh, if he's that badly talked about,
he can't be all bad, you know. To John, there
was this kind of distorted way of thinking.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
What followed was a series of lawsuits between McCartney and
the rest of the band over who would control the
rights to their music.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So all in all I had to I had to
fight them for.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
My bit of the Beatles and in actual fact for
their bit of the Beatles, which many years later they
kind of you.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Know, realized, realized that almost thanked me for. And nowadays,
you know, people get it. They get it, and.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
As I had to fight them, I think they thought, oh,
you know, and felt they were the ones who were
being hurt by this. But the hurt that went down
during that period though, was them feeling hurt, me feeling hurt.
But John being John, John would be the one who
(07:30):
would want to write a hurtful songs his kind of bag.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
I don't believe in Peters.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I just believe in me.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
In his nineteen seventy song God, Lennon announced the end
of the Beatles dream Dreams Over.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
What can I say?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And to publicize the release of his new album, he
was interviewed by Rolling Stone Fonder and publisher Yan Winner.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
I no longer believe in in myth, you know, and
Beatles is another myth. I don't believe in it. The
dream's over, you know. And I'm not just talking about
the Beatles as though, I'm talking about the generation thing.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know.
Speaker 7 (08:32):
The dreams over like it's over, you know, and we
got to well, I have any of you personally got
to get down to so called reality.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
John would do it in some of the songs. He
was writing some of the comments about how the Beatles
did nothing.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It was rubbish, The Beatles was crap.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And you know I told you Yoko Saint Paul never
did anything. All he did was book the studio.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
It looks so awful. When I said I don't like
this and I don't like that, it's just that I
wouldn't you know. I don't like many of the Beatles
records either. You know, my own taste is different from
that which I've played sometimes, which is called cop out
to make money over whatever or because I didn't know
any better.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
So I'm having to read all this stuff and I'll
there one hand, they.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Go, oh, fuck off, your fucking idiot, and that's my
main sentiment.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
But on the other hand, it's like, what why would
you say that?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Why would you want to be? What is it about me?
Speaker 5 (09:31):
Like you're annoyed at me or you're jealous or what
is it?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
You know?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
And John had all of those emotions wrapped up into
a ball of lenon is.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
That in too many people? His nineteen seventies version of
a disc track, McCartney made a veiled response to Lennon's
harsh comments.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I meant, I think literally people sort of grabbing for
a piece of the cake, a slice.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Piece of the pie, also the apple.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah exactly. Yeah. So I think that because it had
all been just a little bit weird and a bit nasty,
I was just basically saying, let's be sensible, let's be peaceful.
Let's you know, we we've we had a lot going
and what's actually split us up is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
The business stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
That's pretty pathetic, really, so let's try and be peaceful.
Speaker 8 (10:54):
Weird.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I think it was quite mild, but the idea of
too many people preaching practices was aimed at him and
yoga telling everyone what they.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Ought to do.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
You should do this, should do that, And I just
got fed up being told what to do. So I
wrote the song, and it was you made your first mistake,
you know, you took your lucky break and broke it
in two. Was me basically saying, you've made this break, so.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Good luck with it. But I say it was pretty mild.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I didn't really come out with any savagery. The first
person and the chorus was basically that was all the
anger I could muster. And when I did the vocal
(12:06):
one of the second line, too many reaching for a
piece of cake. I remember singing it, and if you
listen to it, it says, piss off cake, too many
people reaching for a piss off cake.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Many reading.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I was just getting back at him, but I wasn't
really in it many.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
Lucky.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Despite the mild nature of the insults in too Many People,
Lennon was fired up and responded with the song how
do You Sleep on his nineteen seventy one album Imagine.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yes, I understand some of the stuff he was doing.
(13:30):
He actually had Alan Klein and Yoko in the room
suggesting lyrics. So all you ever did was yesterday, apparently,
was Alan Clein's suggestion.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So John McCay, hey, hey, great, put that in. And
I can see the joy in the fun and the
laughs they had doing it. But I've got to work
very hard to not take this too seriously. But in
the back of my mind, I'm going, wait a minute,
all I ever did was yesterday. Yeah, well, it's funny,
it's funny pun But all I ever did was yesterday.
(14:06):
Let him be Long Wining Road, Elean repe Lady Madonna,
fuck you John, Too many people sharing party lines? I
(14:35):
don't know what that means except people used to have
party lines and you coming on their conversations.
Speaker 9 (14:42):
But the party line of Paul is also tolling the
party line.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You know, this is our position here, and we're fixed
in that position.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Basically, all of these things were just whether they were
actually physically right, whether John and Joko slept in late
or not. Yeah, they were all veiled references to people
thinking that the only truth is their own truth, which
(15:13):
is what was coming from John and Yoko. And you
know the thing is it was crap. War is over. Well,
no it isn't. But I get what you're saying. War
(15:41):
is over if you want it. So if enough people
want war to be over, it'll be over. I'm not
sure that's entirely true, but it's a great sentiment. It's
a nice thing to think and to say. I'd been
able to accept Yoko in the studio on a blanket
(16:01):
in front of my app I worked hard to come
to terms with that, but then when we broke up,
when everyone was now flailing around, John turned nasty. So
this is me sort of saying shut up. Really.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
You know, that's a song that has a particular purpose.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Too many people.
Speaker 9 (16:44):
Yeah, for better or worse it is, you know, getting back.
That's not really a feature of your songs much, is it.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
No, I don't do that much.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
And Jesus.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Well, McCartney's lyrics were more often about love than competition.
He enjoyed Lennon. Both wrote many songs with the intention
of impressing or even upstaging one another.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
That was the.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Nature of all competitiveness. And we're both very upfront about that.
You know, if you'd write a good one, I'd feel
like that to write a better one.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You know.
Speaker 9 (17:27):
That is a very very common phenomenon, very understandable one.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's also a great.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Thing because it's inspiration, you know, it's it's motivation.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
If you've got someone who you respect who comes up
with something rather good.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Sure it happens to everyone totally.
Speaker 10 (17:46):
You know, you'll suddenly see so and so's new poem
and think, hmm. You don't necessarily have to tell anyone no,
but in your own private mind you just think, well,
I could do that.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
There's no doubt this friendly competition contributed to the beatles
prolific output. After the band's disintegration, However, the competition between
McCartney and Lennon was no longer about who could write
a more catchy chorus or skillful bridge. It was about
who could fling the most hurt Here again is how
(18:25):
do you sleep.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Those e.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
Mis sake?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
You gotta remember I sued him in court.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I sued my friends from Liverpool Lifeline friends in court.
So there's a lot of getting over that has had
to be done.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
As much as too many people represented McCartney on the attack,
it wasn't aligned with his natural disposition. Six months later,
he made an attempt at appeasement in Dear Friend, a
song from his nineteen seventy one album Wildlife.
Speaker 8 (19:31):
Dear Friend, what's the time? Is this really the boer?
Does it really mean so much?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Do you?
Speaker 6 (19:51):
I mean?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Why is this argument going on?
Speaker 8 (19:55):
You're afraid?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is it because you're afraid of something?
Speaker 8 (20:00):
Oh? Is it true?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Are you afraid of the split up? Are you afraid
of me doing something without you?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Dear friend?
Speaker 11 (20:12):
Through the word.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
I mad love with a friend of mine?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Are you afraid of the consequences of this?
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Who knows newly?
Speaker 5 (20:29):
And then the little rhyme is or is it true?
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Is it true?
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Is all these hurtful allegations true?
Speaker 8 (20:38):
Ah, is it true?
Speaker 4 (20:52):
I was aware of the McCartney Lenon feud as it
was happening, and I heard these very public arguments in
the songs. But I've always wondered if there was indeed
a form of reconciliation. Did Lenon ever listen to Dear Friend?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would think he did.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, I would think he listened to my records, you know,
when they came out.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Did they ever respond to this in particular?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
No? No, that was not his way.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
You know, we were guys, and it's not it's not
like a boy and girl. It's like it's a guy
and guy. It's a boy and boy, and you don't,
you know.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
You don't.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Those days, you didn't release as much emotion with each other, did.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
What's the time.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Even if Lennon never explicitly addressed McCartney's olive branch, the
two did find their way back to one another.
Speaker 8 (22:06):
Means so much.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Some years later, Lennon even admitted that the anger and
lyrical attacks and songs like how Do You Sleep were
directed more towards himself than towards McCartney. Eventually, they were
able to put the hurt and negative feelings behind them
and moved forward with their friendship.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It was super, super painful, and there was a lot
of navigation of emotions to be done, a lot of
hurt to be sailed around, but we did it, and
you know, in the end was something I was very
glad of when he got.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Murdered, was that I had had.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Some really good times with him before that happened. It
would have been the worst thing in the world for
someone like me. Had he'd just been killed and we
still had bad relationship, I would have just thought, oh,
I should have, I should have, I should have, I
should have. That would have been a big guilt trip
for me. Luckily, you know, we were friendly and we
(23:20):
talked about how to bake bread.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
It seems like Paul McCartney's adoration for his childhood friend
has only deepened over time. In twenty twenty two, on
his Got Back tour, McCartney surprised his audience by bringing
Lennon back on stage. Turning away from the crowd, he
(23:49):
looked up at a video of his old friend projected
on a giant screen behind him, and together they sang
I've got a feeling, their contrasting voices washing over the crowd.
The two Beatles again joined in a musical conversation. In
(24:45):
the next episode, when I get to the bottom, I go.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Back to the top of the slot where stop.
Speaker 11 (24:55):
Go right till I get to the past.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
All an innocent carnival ride gave birth to heavy metal.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Do you don't you?
Speaker 11 (25:09):
Hmmm, tell me.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Tell me.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
McCartney. A Life in Lyrics is a co production between
iHeartMedia n p L. And Pushkin Industries.
Host
Paul McCartney
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