January 22, 2025 • 40 mins
Minnie questions Lisa Taddeo, author of Three Women, Animal, and Ghost Lover. Lisa explores the cycle of seeing a robin in her garden, why she and her husband aren’t living in the same love story (yet), and talks about her teeth.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. I'm
just like, does everybody feel this time with you?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I don't think so. I don't think so at all.
There's a few people I'd like you to call, actually
on my behalf. Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved
Preust's questionnaire. It was originally in nineteenth century parlor game
where players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed
at revealing.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The other player's true nature. In asking different people the
same set of questions.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You can make observations about which truths appear to be universal.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And it made me.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Wonder, what if these questions were just the jumping off point,
what greater depths would be revealed if I asked these
questions as conversation starters.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So I adapted.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Prus's questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that
I personally think are pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They are when and where.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that's grown out of a personal disaster. And
(01:18):
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
(01:41):
today is the author and great wit Lisa Today. Lisa
essentially writes books you can't put down. Her debut novel,
which is called Three Women, was released in twenty nineteen
and it was recently made into a pretty excellent show
on the television, and if you haven't read it, you
really need to. Her second novel was as good, and
(02:02):
it was called Animal, And she also has this brilliant
collection of short stories called Ghost Lover. Lisa has this
angular wit that is full of self reflection and candid observation.
She is ruthless in the way that she sees herself
and her idiosyncrasies, but so warm and funny and clever.
(02:22):
And hearing her speak about her beloved dad was one
of the best things I listened to last year.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I really hope you enjoy our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Someone called my face extremely square, which it is, but
that's not the point on an open post on my
Instagram the other day, and it really triggered me because
at school I was called fifty p face, which is
a hexagonal coin in the British lexicon of money. And
I realized my response really would have been yes, and
(02:55):
but these things from our childhood, they have fingers that
reach along into off eatues.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
That first of all, I just have to say, as
someone who grew up watching you and movies and thinking
you were the most beautiful woman ever, I don't see
the square face. But what's interesting is my husband said
that my teeth were not age appropriate.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Which is like a weird burn.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Right.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
It's like a what does that mean? And I was
like what does that mean? He's like, well, that's just
such a husband was right, And I'm like, what does
that mean?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
He's like, no, they're just they're younger than you.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I was like, they're like little girl teeth and you're
like a woman.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What person, place, or experience most altered your life.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
The death of my father.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Oh bless him.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, he was in a car accident, and it was
it was shocked because it was someone who had promised
me he would never die.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
That was my dad, Daddy so fucked.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
But just definitely that utterly changed everything.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Who are you before he died?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
That was utterly You're going to make me cry?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Oh Angel, I don't.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I know, I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Don't worry about well, me too, But here I'm literally
supposed to be the grown up.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
For as my son yelled.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
At me one day, I don't know, you're the mummy
when he was five and I was crying.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And you're like, oh God, but not right now? Can
you just take care of me? Can I porepify you
for a second, because I exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I don't want to make you cry.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Angel, Tell me was I before?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Or tell me about your dad if that's easier.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
My dad was a doctor.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
He was the kind of doctor they don't make anymore where,
like you know, house calls and a leather doctor bag
going into the house. And at his funeral there were
like thousands of people on a block around like he
was just like one of those people who everyone in
a community was like. And to me, obviously it was
(05:09):
that plus everything else, plus I was scared about health stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So like I just had like.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
A all in one person who would literally put the
seatbelt on me when I would leave the house in
the morning to go to school. When I started driving,
he would click it in so he knew it was
on there, which is, you know, obviously ironic that he
was not wearing a seat belt in his accident anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Before he died. I remember saying this to my boyfriend
at the time when he was like.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
He was nervous about some medical thing, some issue, and
I was like, look, our bodies do things sometimes that
we just can't explain and we just can't think about it.
We just have to live in the present. That's who
I was before my dad. I was the person I'm
trying to get back to.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Angel Oh okay, okay, like the mad woman living alongside
the wise woman.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
She is still there, She's here.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Like as women we forget, we have this strange amnesia,
I believe, which is about having to exist as an
adult woman in this world with all of the things
that are taken away and that are suppressed.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And I feel you so hard.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
About trying and wanting to and it feeling difficult to
return to that person that we were before the trauma
all the trauma happened. All I can tell you is
that even though my dad didn't die like that, I
want to get back to that little girl, but I
don't think she's gone anywhere.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's very hard though, because it's very hard to like,
now you're a mum and you're a wife, and you've
got to do the shopping, and you've got to write
the books, and you've got to have your reproductive rights
taken away, and you've got to walk down the street
and do the dry cleaning and the laundry. Yeah, and
also there's a little child waving in the distance that like,
we can't deal with it every day, but you do
(07:11):
it in your writing though, Like it feels like you
revisit so many beautiful things that you then examine, like
you're very gently turning over a rock and like looking
at it and looking at all the different ways that
it looks in a light. And that's how it feels
reading your books, is that I am examining life with you.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
That is so cool. Thank you. That's my grandest hope.
So I'm glad to hear this.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, all right, we're going to move on from the snags.
It's going to make me write also, okay, where and
when were you happiest? My god, I no one's ever
laughed that hard like they like milk would have come
spurting out of your nose if I.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Can't even believe how hard you're laughing. She's laughing like
a benchie.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's so funny because if you would ask me when
and where were you the status, I would have so
many things to go through, like a library, and I'm like,
which one do you want? Which of these beautiful bobbles
can I offer you?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
When you asked me what I'm happy is? I do
know two things.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
The first, the biggest one was when I was pregnant
with my daughter and they had found some other stuff
that I had to get more tests for that made
everything awful.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
But at the same time.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
That they were giving me the results of these tests,
they also told me that it was a girl, and
I wept so much, and I was able to feel
the joy about it being a girl, even though somebody
was telling me I might not be alive to see
her for very long after she was born because of
something they had found that ended up being okay, but
(08:57):
not till after she was born. Anyway, that moment, the
fact that I was able to experience joy within the
fear spiral that I was in is probably my happiest note.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Wow, that is a bubble within a bubble.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Were you wereware at the time this is pure joy
or were you just living it at what because it
was also existing along with this other really frightening news?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Or was it on reflection when you found out that
you were going to be fine and you could then
look back on it and find that joyful resonance.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's a brilliant question. I think a little bit of both.
I think in the moment, I was shocked that I
was able to feel it. I remember feeling shocked at
feeling joy. Oh, so that's why it's something that really
I was just like whoa. And then I was telling
one of my friends, this the only time I can
get there, you know. And I tried different things for
(09:53):
depression and whatnot. The the way I can really get
there is with nitrous oxide at the dentist. And I
was telling one of my friends that I liked and
I've been telling a lot of people I'm like, I
really like nitrous, you know, the dentists, and they're just like,
no one has circled around me like the way they
have with other things like.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Ketamine and mushrooms.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
But they just like kind of let me sit there
with the nitrous thing, and I feel like a monster.
But then the other day one of my daughter's friend's
dads was like, oh he was British.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
He's like, I fucking love that too.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Finally waits, what's your dentist's name? Actually I can't, I
can't do that, no, But I was just thinking do
you call up mister Reuben and saying I think I
got a cavity, it might be a rekanal. I think
I might need to come in. Do you have Munchenhausen dentists?
Because you want the nitrous.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I don't have that yet, but I'm looking.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm always looking at my taking taking applications.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, I don't currently have a provider.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
So it's pretty dramatic, Like your moments of feeling happiness
are like joy within the context of what could actually
be a tragedy and.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Nitrous oxide.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yes, is there somewhere in between as somebody who like
I think a lot of people live with sadness. Do
you become more or less aware of your happiness? Like
is it easy to try and forget about it? Or
do you just become When you see a robin in
your garden, do you go, oh, my god, a robin.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
That makes me feel happy? Now back to the gloom.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I feel like I can cancel my therapy for a
while because I feel like these are really like I'm
just like thinking, like all I do is already think
about my mental state.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So the fact that I'm thinking even more about it
is shocking.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I'm very invested in your happiness.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Suddenly, I really am on your path to it, Like
this is great.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
That's what my next book is about. It's my path
to something.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But when I'm sad, I am a yes, like you
were saying, there's people, And I feel this way that
there's two sides of the coin, the sort of people
who live on the side of Like when you said,
is there a robin in your garden that's beautiful? I
am looking outside at my backyard, which is very lovely,
(12:23):
especially in the fall, and it's magical, and I see
it through two different lenses. One of the way that
I would like to experience it of oh, there is
a robin on the wooden fence, on the beautiful patch
of grass with the marigolds there. How lovely that all
these things coalesced to form this perfect picture of fall
(12:46):
that I can enjoy. And then I'm like, there's people
who don't get to ever see that. So why am
I deserving? That this could all go away in an instant?
So what's the point of being happy about it? It
hurts more to lose it? And then the you ungrateful bitch,
how dare you? And then so that's the cycle of
seeing a robin.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
I feel, I feel you.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Sometimes a robin just isn't allowed to be a robin exactly,
I see, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And I think my experience of that, at least in
this current iteration of my life and with what is
going on out in the wide world, I think that
I feel like a failure for not not experiencing things.
But I think we all just experience things so differently,
and I think so many of us and not to
(13:37):
get all whatever, but part of the capitalist machine is
just doing the next thing, you know, and in order
to make everybody happy and make all the wheels turn,
there really isn't time for existentialism anymore, you know, they're
just social media has replaced existentialism.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's so true, because you do you see somebody else,
you're like, oh my god, you're spiraling too goodness actually
alone exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But then you also see all the people who are
just plowing through like everything's fine, and you're like, which
one do I do?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah? I suppose that is always the choice. Huh it's
that Robert Frost poem.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, I came to a fork in the woods on.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
A snowy Yeah, and I took the path less travel line,
and that has made all the difference, has it?
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah? Exactly? Has it? Has it?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Though? But has it?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like seriously Robert has it?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Has it? Because I don't know exactly?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And I think in this business, of which I am
a very nascent member, but you know, even in the
book world and stuff, there is such an element of
the show must go on. And that's true of everything.
And I don't just mean like current situations aside. I
mean in general, the show must go on is the
name of the game. And anyone who sort of doesn't
(14:55):
want the show to go on, you either get left over, there.
Way that I say that my husband and daughter sometimes
handle my depression is just by stepping over it, like
it's a dead body on the floor onto the.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Next event, like, okay, is mom coming up? I love
to drag.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So that's so strange as well, like the idea of
it being other than you, like mom's dead body, that
they have to step away, like it's sort of, oh,
let's put it in the second person so it isn't
actually happening to me.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Which is helpful, which is something I should perhaps by the.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Way, I think I might have said this on here before,
but my editor, she is the most incredible woman. She's
very briefly my editor, and she gave me this incredible note.
She was like, I want you to look up the
emotional places in your book where you suddenly go into
the second person, where you know when you're feeling agonized,
where your heart is breaking, you know when you feel
like a dead body that people are stepping up, And
she said, I just want you to just just just
(15:53):
for a laugh, put it all into the first person.
And I wrote it and I literally felt like I
was going to throw up as I was writing my
heart is breaking, I feel like a dead body people
stepping over Like it was so interesting psychologically, and now
I start thinking, now I do it with passages of
bits that I'm writing.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
If I don't feel connected, I'll just throw it.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Into a different EOV exactly, Yeah, and see if that
shifts that. Maybe that's a trick that all writers know.
But it was so we do it as women though
my friends do it. Yes, my girlfriends do it, and
I now stop them and go, you're saying you, and
I know you mean I, and I think if you
say I, we can be in the room with us more.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That's so interesting, and it's something just from the writing
angle of it.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I think about all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Like most of the time, I'm not that excited to
talk about like the quote unquote craft things because I
feel like I've got so much other stuff going.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
But that is the one thing that I think I've got, Robinster,
That's that's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I love asking a fiction writer, this, what relationship, real
or fictionalized defines love for you.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Fictionalized was Carrie Elways and Robin Wright and the Princess Bride.
That's what told me what love is. And then I
have to say, my husband and I. We fight literally
every single day. There is not a day that our
daughter doesn't say, this is the stupidest thing I've ever
(17:35):
heard anyone argue about.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Can you guys stop?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Because it was like about the coffee maker and he's
like logical and autistic and ADHD and I have OCDS,
so we have all these dueling mental illnesss with it,
argue with each other, alongside child wounds and all of that.
But I have to say that the love that he
has for me, that he says I'm not living in
(18:00):
our actual love story yet but he will wait there
until I do that is I gotta say. I really
like that. It feels like the most real love story
available to me. He also at one point said, don't worry.
One day you're gonna get all the little things done
that are on your little lists, and we're going to
have one day where we're happy and you're happy, and
(18:22):
that day is going to come.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
So let's just live your life.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Keep doing what you're doing and being sad and thinking
and not trusting me and thinking nothing's real, and one
day you're going to be able to enjoy it all
and then we'll die.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Oh my god, Oh my god. I love your husband.
It's that roomy quote again.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Here it is out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing,
There is a field. I'll meet you there while the
soul lies down in the grass. The world is too
full to talk about ideas language. Even the phrase each
other doesn't make any sense. Oh, oh my god, that's
your husband. I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
We'll see if it's actually.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Exactly that's the thing. It's like, I don't know that
when you trust, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It's so funny because that is an everyday occurrence. It
seems to me trusting you wake up every day and
you go and you do a situational assessment. Can I
trust that this is breakfast and everything is okay?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
All right? I can. That's as good as it gets.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Sometimes I think blanket trust is not actually functional possible.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
It's really not.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But I think people always say that it is. My
husband's therapist had said to him the reason that when
he was afraid to fly. He's like, it's because you
don't trust the pilot. And it's like, well, why should.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Why don't we know the pilot?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I never met him, Like what, I should trust the
pilot because that's his job. Should I trust the doctor
that messed up my knee surgery? And now I need
a full replate, like should I trust them implicitly? Should
we just trust people? Because I've trusted people and had
a lot of things left up about it. So it's like,
you know, went into a meeting the other day and
the person was like, well, you know, I might not
(20:07):
want to say that because you know, people always sue
us for stealing their ideas, And I'm like, well, I'm
just going to go into this blindly trusting like I've
done everything else, and see how that works for me,
because I just can't do it any other way.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I listen, I am with you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I will make a choice to trust even though life
proves over and over again that shit often doesn't work out.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, I just don't think that's the point.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think you have to take that as shit is
not going to work out for the most part, but
the times that it does are going to be so great,
and something usually comes It dovetails into the last question
I ask on this podcast. Invariably something comes out of
the shit. That's not a reason to pursue it, but
it's definitely worth keeping in mind.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
You know, it's vital to keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
In fact, I'm nervous to ask you what is the
quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Because but what is the quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I think my addiction to my fear. I think I'm
addicted to my fear. And I think that I don't
think I've made a conscious decision to let go of it,
because I still believe it protects me even though it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Okay, So.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Who is the you knowing that, mannie?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I'm trying to figure that out. I'm like, who am
I without the fear? I say this to my husband
all the time. He's like, you just got to let
go of it. I'm like, if I let go of that,
there'll be nothing here.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
But the person, the person who is here observing that
you sitting here talking to me. Yeah, is that like
a psychological shift? Is that maybe because you're a writer
where you can actually you shift the pav even on
your own experience, by going, I do this thing. I
am addicted to fear. I think I will not be
protected if I let go of it. Who is that
(22:13):
person talking? Who is talking that sense? Because we all
have that and I want to fucking know who she
is because all those people should get together and have tea.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah, exactly, and those people should stick.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Around and keep the wheels on the wagon, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And that's one of the reasons why I write is
to remember that, Like when I look back and see
words that I've written when I'm in a clearer state,
it feels a little bit helpful.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
But it also feels like who is that?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Like you just said, I know how to have self
awareness about what I'm doing, and then I know what
I'm like when I'm in the cargo holds of indefensible fear.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
And fatrid and shame. But I don't know where the
twain meet. But that is a.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Really that's a great like the person who's like I
want to think the robinsful, like where is the exactly?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Or maybe it's just about like she is there, like
when you look back or when I read your books
and I feel your clarity. She is there, like she
is demonstrably there. So perhaps it's not so much like
how do I find her and make her stick around?
It's more about.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Going, No, she is there. It's the statue inside the marble.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
There is all this other stuff around her, and maybe
it's about and I'm saying this generally because this is
not you in isolation. I am fascinated, like, and this
conversation has triggered this thing that I think about at
four o'clock in the morning, which is the wise woman
who talks to us and calms us, and we call
her our self awareness.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
She is real. She is as real as our fear.
She is as real as.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Our negative slaggy old slagface. He tells us that we're
square face and.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Teeth is so much better. I feel like that's such
a better jew V. That's really good.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's it because gvteth is as mean as.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Tiftyp face, Like yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Anyway, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Maybe we just have to leave room for that clarity
when you look back, instead of going, oh, I was
so clear, it's yeah, but she is there. She's living
alongside the mad woman, and that's maybe that's all right.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
That's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I need to write that down because I feel like,
just for my own like the mad Woman, like the
Jane Eyre you know whatever, and the attic living yes,
and it's okay, you know, I'm literally writing that down
because I just feel like it'll remind me that it's okay,
like the whole shadow aspect of.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Ourselves making room for them.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
But what's so interesting is the POV stuff in writing,
which I think is so fascinating. What you were saying
about the idea of turning it on yourself and saying
I and then feeling the eye of that. I wrote
a short story when I was getting my MFA at
Boston University, and the short story was completely in the
second person.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
And this other writer because you know, you go around the.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Room and critique everyone's writing, and it was very aggressive.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You do this because you.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
It was like the character themselves was a sort of
bad person, not bad, just like flawed human, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Not bad, but you know, president.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Whatever, President, Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But this other writer in the class was like, I
felt so aggressed upon by Lisa's story because it was
like you take the subway to blah blah blah because
you feel like that girl doesn't deserve whatever. Like it
was all this and I was just like so fascinated
by that that she had felt and I kind of
(25:51):
was the feeling I wanted to elicit, but that she
had felt that, and the you of it had even
though we were in a writing class and writing in
the second person, is you know, well something that people do.
I just remember her feeling that way, and when you
said that, your editor gave you that note and you
put it back on the eye, and I just I
was wondering, like about doing that with that even though
(26:12):
it's gone.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
But you know, it's just a really interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It is.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Listen the POV Like, I asked that quite a lot,
like who is the POV four? Is it for me
to create distance from the scary things I'm saying that
maybe they're not fiction, maybe they're real. Or is it
because I think it's a cool tool. Yeah, quite interesting
just to I don't know. Maybe it's just about the
interrogation of it.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Yeah, totally. I think everything is about that.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
So what question would you most like? Answered?
Speaker 4 (26:46):
God, I'm going to give you something that's rather dark to.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I wouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Thank you for my next book.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's about shocker grief, the grief of being alive essentially,
not the grief of being alive like full stop, but
the grief that comes with just consciousness, whether it's mental
illness or all of that. And one of the people
I've been speaking to is a doctor who performs euthanasia
on otherwise physically healthy people with mental illness who no
(27:25):
longer want to be around. And he's a brilliant doctor,
and he's under a lot of investigation for what he's doing.
But I do not disagree at all. I know many
people do, but I think that ultimately this is the
same question about control over women's bodies. Is having control
over when you live and die should be something that
(27:47):
we each have over our own selves, just.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Like women should, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And this doctor I was asking him if anything had
ever given him pause, and he said the only thing
that had was this man whose wife was about to
be euthanized, who said to the doctor as she was dying,
what if in the next world she's feeling the same things,
(28:16):
but she's left all of us. So my question that
I want answered is what happens next. Should we be
running towards that field, or should we terry a bit
the way.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Should we make another movie and do another ten thousand steps,
or should I im in the field and Russell Crowe
wafting his hand along the golden ears of corn or
wheat or whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
The fuck it was?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I feel you let me tell you, it's probably the
number one question that people want to know. But that
was the most brilliant, dark, amazing answer.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
You brought into play. Like I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I knew that there were like pods in Switzerland, but
I guess I've only ever thought of that with people
who have like diagnoses of like Parkinson's or als or cancer.
And I think it's heartbreaking for me to think that
people would be suffering so terribly with their mental health
they would want to end their life. There was a
lot in that, but ultimately I agree with you. I
(29:25):
would love to know we're gonna know this ends with
all of us dying, Like right, it has the same ending.
I wonder how it actually would affect our lives.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
If we need, we need totally.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I probably eat a lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It would probably just mean better to know. It's like,
you know, after the election, it's like, well.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Now we know, now we know what we're staring.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's like getting a diagnosis. Now we know it's the
unknown of it. Knowledge is power and the unknown is
an unending loop of just and also that without having
the unending loop, maybe we'd be I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
I guess the answer is.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I think it's all we're left with. We have to
cozy up to the unknown because we're most like we're
not going to find out. Yeah, I will tell you briefly.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I did a performance in a theater with hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of people of this play called White Rabbit,
Red Rabbit. And it is a play by this amazing
playwright called Nasim Sulamanpour and he is an Iranian playwright
who is not allowed to leave Iran, and he has
essentially sent.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
His play out into the world.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And here's the kicker. You perform the play sight unseen.
There is an envelope on the chair on the stage
when you walk on and you undo the envelope and
you take out the play and you begin to read
it and it is happening in.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Real time and you're unknown. Wow it is.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It was the most extraordinary experience to have to step
out there into I already know what that's like to
step out onto a stage and the fear and the
nerves and everything that goes with it, but to not
know what is going to happen next. And it reminded
me of being a kid where every day when my
mum would like slam the door in the summer and
be like through.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
The letterbox, come back when it's dark.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
The possibility of anything and everything happened now was all
present at the same time. And the crazy thing was,
or the amazing thing was it drowned out the fear
of what will I do because it was happening so
much in the lowness of now, there wasn't any room
the theor actually was subordinate to the now. Yes, fucking cool.
(31:32):
Oh god, that's so cool. But anyway, I wonder if
our unknown as being more comfortable with the unknown, maybe
that is like something we can all look at and
think about and do in our lives.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And what you just said was really it was really
helpful because it also is something that I can relate to,
not the performative ass but the nowness of the way
that you just said.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
That was so helpful to me, So like, good, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I only ever say the stuff that I need to
listen to or learn.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I think that's the most divinely helpful stuff is the
stuff we tell ourselves that we feel comfortable enough to
share with others. I think that's the path to healing.
And I really deeply appreciate you saying.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
That, hey, wow, good right next one.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
What would be your last meal?
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Okay, that's easy ish.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think sushi is my favorite thing, like a really
sensational oh ma case of just the most beautiful fish
and just like in a really like clean and cozy,
subterranean restaurant.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Oh my god, I love Okay, there's a lot to
n Why do you want it to be subterranean?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I like the sort of like secret of dining spots
that aren't like the hipster dining spots. I used to
when I was in my twenties in the city, I
would conserve my entire week's paycheck just to have one
sushi lunch where all the Japanese businessmen went in the
(33:24):
forties and midtown during the day, and I would be
the only like twenty four year old girl like reading
like a copy of The New Yorker while like getting
search and but like checking the price because it's like, oh,
I don't have a corporate card, so I just this
is insane.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
But the subterranean part, I don't know. I like when
things are under ground. I like sub.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
I like like sub.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
I like sub.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I like that sub is cozy. Yeah, as opposed to claustrophobic.
That's very interesting. I'm going to write that down.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Sub is cozy.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
You might think about getting that needle point on a
pillow t shirt. I might even make that for you, Lisa,
sub is cozy?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
So hard.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Also, just because you mentioned that you might be.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
O c D.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, I've always thought that sushi is the perfect food
for someone who is OCD because it is so just
painfully beautifully arranged and symmetrical and even and organized.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Is that part of why you love it? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But until you have said it, I would never have
made that connection. But absolutely, it's a stunning connection.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
It's an organized, sub cozy, totally fish first.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. It's
just like, does everybody feel the way with you?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
All.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
There's a few people I'd like you to call. Actually,
on my behalf, I bet you not understanding fifty P
face because if you things I've learned while talking to her.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
She is everything. Did you tell her what your favorite
food was? She would make it feel so much better?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
I love that that's your last meal, all right?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We've arrived here at our last question, which feels really
strange and like too soon.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
In your life.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Can you tell me about something that has grown out
of a personal disaster.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I suppose what my husband and I say a lot
is that if my dad were still alive, he would
convinced me.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
Not to marry my husband.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
And so he says, at the very least, because your
dad died, you were able to get to me, because
he wouldn't have let you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I mean, Michael, the first of all, your husband's so dark,
that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I think it is, Like I think my mom would
have loved him and said that like he was the
better half, and my dad should have liked him but
would have been too suspicious of his differences, because like
my dad was severe OCD and this is severe ADHD, which,
(36:16):
unless you are like reading a manual, you're just like,
why is.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
This person's just fucking asshole?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Like if you have an entirely different disease, you're just
like you're an asshole, and the person's like, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
I just have the same problems you do.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
They're just over here, and it's like you know, so
I know because I'm unable to recognize his disorders in
favor of mine. That my father, who also had OCD
and was similar to me and controlling and all of that,
would have had similar issues with him.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
God, that's so interesting. Wait, what's your daughter like? She's
a wild You didn't talk about her.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
She's a wild beast.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
We were doing this thing the other night where I
was just like, all I do is talk about feelings.
All I do is and I feel like I have
an avoidant child, like my avoidant husband, and I'm just like,
oh my god. So like the other day, we're in
bed and you know, we're like reading and she'll say
something like roundbreaking, like so and so said this to
me and it made me feel blah blah blah. And
then she'll just stop. And then she's like, wait, can
(37:16):
we read Babysitters Club? And I'm like, wait, you just
said something explosive we need to talk about. She's like, yeah,
I'm done.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
I got it out. And I'm like, but you didn't
get it out.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
You said something and it was like explosive, and now
we used to talk about it and she was like, Mom,
I'm done, I got it out.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
We're done. We can close that up put it away,
and I was like, you can't. And then she's like,
tell me a story.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So I was like fine, and then I was like,
in a dark wood behind you know the stories kids love,
in a dark coffin, there's a dark locket. In the
dark locket, are your feelings boxes? Feelings are there? And
she started laughing hysterically.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
And I'm like, oh my god, you're laughing because that's
really what's going on.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Like I'm never going to be able to get in
there either, another box that I must spend the rest
of my life trying to crawl into.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I don't want to, Oh my god. But at least
sub is cozy.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So you're spending time underground looking through in the box
in the locket, in the box in the lock you
will enjoy.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I swear to god, I don't know that I've ever
felt more understood, like at all. And like I said,
I feel like when people come over and see our
dog and they're like so much, and it's like that
dog acts like that with everybody. I feel like a
little bit that way.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Now I'm like, oh my god, Mini is really get
to me.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Everybody.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's because I love you, and I think I know
you because of reading your books, and.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Also you're just wonderful.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
You're wonderful, like you're wonderful to talk to, and your
books change the way people feel, and they are comforting
and they are the best companion. I've had them on
many hard journeys. And it's really cool to be able
to sit and talk and you're so generous to talk
about painful things and things that we traditionally don't talk about.
(39:12):
You know what's cool is like maybe your daughter will
listen to this one day, and like you are just
demonstrating what it is to investigate.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
It's good for all of us to do that. So
thank you so much. You're amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
I think you so much. Truly, You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me, Mini Driver
Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support
from Jennifer Bassett, Zoe Denkler, and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
The theme music is also by Me.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
And additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Jim
Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella, Anik Oppenheim, A,
Nick Muller, and a net Wolfe.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
A w kPr, Will
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Pearson, Nikki Itoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tiggadore
Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. I'm
just like, does everybody feel this time with you?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I don't think so. I don't think so at all.
There's a few people I'd like you to call, actually
on my behalf. Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved
Preust's questionnaire. It was originally in nineteenth century parlor game
where players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed
at revealing.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The other player's true nature. In asking different people the
same set of questions.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You can make observations about which truths appear to be universal.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And it made me.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Wonder, what if these questions were just the jumping off point,
what greater depths would be revealed if I asked these
questions as conversation starters.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So I adapted.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Prus's questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that
I personally think are pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They are when and where.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that's grown out of a personal disaster. And
(01:18):
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
(01:41):
today is the author and great wit Lisa Today. Lisa
essentially writes books you can't put down. Her debut novel,
which is called Three Women, was released in twenty nineteen
and it was recently made into a pretty excellent show
on the television, and if you haven't read it, you
really need to. Her second novel was as good, and
(02:02):
it was called Animal, And she also has this brilliant
collection of short stories called Ghost Lover. Lisa has this
angular wit that is full of self reflection and candid observation.
She is ruthless in the way that she sees herself
and her idiosyncrasies, but so warm and funny and clever.
(02:22):
And hearing her speak about her beloved dad was one
of the best things I listened to last year.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I really hope you enjoy our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Someone called my face extremely square, which it is, but
that's not the point on an open post on my
Instagram the other day, and it really triggered me because
at school I was called fifty p face, which is
a hexagonal coin in the British lexicon of money. And
I realized my response really would have been yes, and
(02:55):
but these things from our childhood, they have fingers that
reach along into off eatues.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
That first of all, I just have to say, as
someone who grew up watching you and movies and thinking
you were the most beautiful woman ever, I don't see
the square face. But what's interesting is my husband said
that my teeth were not age appropriate.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Which is like a weird burn.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Right.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
It's like a what does that mean? And I was
like what does that mean? He's like, well, that's just
such a husband was right, And I'm like, what does
that mean?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
He's like, no, they're just they're younger than you.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I was like, they're like little girl teeth and you're
like a woman.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What person, place, or experience most altered your life.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
The death of my father.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Oh bless him.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, he was in a car accident, and it was
it was shocked because it was someone who had promised
me he would never die.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
That was my dad, Daddy so fucked.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
But just definitely that utterly changed everything.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Who are you before he died?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
That was utterly You're going to make me cry?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Oh Angel, I don't.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I know, I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Don't worry about well, me too, But here I'm literally
supposed to be the grown up.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
For as my son yelled.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
At me one day, I don't know, you're the mummy
when he was five and I was crying.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And you're like, oh God, but not right now? Can
you just take care of me? Can I porepify you
for a second, because I exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I don't want to make you cry.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Angel, Tell me was I before?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Or tell me about your dad if that's easier.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
My dad was a doctor.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
He was the kind of doctor they don't make anymore where,
like you know, house calls and a leather doctor bag
going into the house. And at his funeral there were
like thousands of people on a block around like he
was just like one of those people who everyone in
a community was like. And to me, obviously it was
(05:09):
that plus everything else, plus I was scared about health stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So like I just had like.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
A all in one person who would literally put the
seatbelt on me when I would leave the house in
the morning to go to school. When I started driving,
he would click it in so he knew it was
on there, which is, you know, obviously ironic that he
was not wearing a seat belt in his accident anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Before he died. I remember saying this to my boyfriend
at the time when he was like.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
He was nervous about some medical thing, some issue, and
I was like, look, our bodies do things sometimes that
we just can't explain and we just can't think about it.
We just have to live in the present. That's who
I was before my dad. I was the person I'm
trying to get back to.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Angel Oh okay, okay, like the mad woman living alongside
the wise woman.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
She is still there, She's here.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Like as women we forget, we have this strange amnesia,
I believe, which is about having to exist as an
adult woman in this world with all of the things
that are taken away and that are suppressed.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And I feel you so hard.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
About trying and wanting to and it feeling difficult to
return to that person that we were before the trauma
all the trauma happened. All I can tell you is
that even though my dad didn't die like that, I
want to get back to that little girl, but I
don't think she's gone anywhere.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's very hard though, because it's very hard to like,
now you're a mum and you're a wife, and you've
got to do the shopping, and you've got to write
the books, and you've got to have your reproductive rights
taken away, and you've got to walk down the street
and do the dry cleaning and the laundry. Yeah, and
also there's a little child waving in the distance that like,
we can't deal with it every day, but you do
(07:11):
it in your writing though, Like it feels like you
revisit so many beautiful things that you then examine, like
you're very gently turning over a rock and like looking
at it and looking at all the different ways that
it looks in a light. And that's how it feels
reading your books, is that I am examining life with you.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
That is so cool. Thank you. That's my grandest hope.
So I'm glad to hear this.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, all right, we're going to move on from the snags.
It's going to make me write also, okay, where and
when were you happiest? My god, I no one's ever
laughed that hard like they like milk would have come
spurting out of your nose if I.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Can't even believe how hard you're laughing. She's laughing like
a benchie.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's so funny because if you would ask me when
and where were you the status, I would have so
many things to go through, like a library, and I'm like,
which one do you want? Which of these beautiful bobbles
can I offer you?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
When you asked me what I'm happy is? I do
know two things.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
The first, the biggest one was when I was pregnant
with my daughter and they had found some other stuff
that I had to get more tests for that made
everything awful.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
But at the same time.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
That they were giving me the results of these tests,
they also told me that it was a girl, and
I wept so much, and I was able to feel
the joy about it being a girl, even though somebody
was telling me I might not be alive to see
her for very long after she was born because of
something they had found that ended up being okay, but
(08:57):
not till after she was born. Anyway, that moment, the
fact that I was able to experience joy within the
fear spiral that I was in is probably my happiest note.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Wow, that is a bubble within a bubble.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Were you wereware at the time this is pure joy
or were you just living it at what because it
was also existing along with this other really frightening news?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Or was it on reflection when you found out that
you were going to be fine and you could then
look back on it and find that joyful resonance.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's a brilliant question. I think a little bit of both.
I think in the moment, I was shocked that I
was able to feel it. I remember feeling shocked at
feeling joy. Oh, so that's why it's something that really
I was just like whoa. And then I was telling
one of my friends, this the only time I can
get there, you know. And I tried different things for
(09:53):
depression and whatnot. The the way I can really get
there is with nitrous oxide at the dentist. And I
was telling one of my friends that I liked and
I've been telling a lot of people I'm like, I
really like nitrous, you know, the dentists, and they're just like,
no one has circled around me like the way they
have with other things like.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Ketamine and mushrooms.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
But they just like kind of let me sit there
with the nitrous thing, and I feel like a monster.
But then the other day one of my daughter's friend's
dads was like, oh he was British.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
He's like, I fucking love that too.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Finally waits, what's your dentist's name? Actually I can't, I
can't do that, no, But I was just thinking do
you call up mister Reuben and saying I think I
got a cavity, it might be a rekanal. I think
I might need to come in. Do you have Munchenhausen dentists?
Because you want the nitrous.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I don't have that yet, but I'm looking.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm always looking at my taking taking applications.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, I don't currently have a provider.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
So it's pretty dramatic, Like your moments of feeling happiness
are like joy within the context of what could actually
be a tragedy and.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Nitrous oxide.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yes, is there somewhere in between as somebody who like
I think a lot of people live with sadness. Do
you become more or less aware of your happiness? Like
is it easy to try and forget about it? Or
do you just become When you see a robin in
your garden, do you go, oh, my god, a robin.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
That makes me feel happy? Now back to the gloom.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I feel like I can cancel my therapy for a
while because I feel like these are really like I'm
just like thinking, like all I do is already think
about my mental state.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So the fact that I'm thinking even more about it
is shocking.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I'm very invested in your happiness.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Suddenly, I really am on your path to it, Like
this is great.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
That's what my next book is about. It's my path
to something.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But when I'm sad, I am a yes, like you
were saying, there's people, And I feel this way that
there's two sides of the coin, the sort of people
who live on the side of Like when you said,
is there a robin in your garden that's beautiful? I
am looking outside at my backyard, which is very lovely,
(12:23):
especially in the fall, and it's magical, and I see
it through two different lenses. One of the way that
I would like to experience it of oh, there is
a robin on the wooden fence, on the beautiful patch
of grass with the marigolds there. How lovely that all
these things coalesced to form this perfect picture of fall
(12:46):
that I can enjoy. And then I'm like, there's people
who don't get to ever see that. So why am
I deserving? That this could all go away in an instant?
So what's the point of being happy about it? It
hurts more to lose it? And then the you ungrateful bitch,
how dare you? And then so that's the cycle of
seeing a robin.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
I feel, I feel you.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Sometimes a robin just isn't allowed to be a robin exactly,
I see, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And I think my experience of that, at least in
this current iteration of my life and with what is
going on out in the wide world, I think that
I feel like a failure for not not experiencing things.
But I think we all just experience things so differently,
and I think so many of us and not to
(13:37):
get all whatever, but part of the capitalist machine is
just doing the next thing, you know, and in order
to make everybody happy and make all the wheels turn,
there really isn't time for existentialism anymore, you know, they're
just social media has replaced existentialism.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's so true, because you do you see somebody else,
you're like, oh my god, you're spiraling too goodness actually
alone exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But then you also see all the people who are
just plowing through like everything's fine, and you're like, which
one do I do?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah? I suppose that is always the choice. Huh it's
that Robert Frost poem.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, I came to a fork in the woods on.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
A snowy Yeah, and I took the path less travel line,
and that has made all the difference, has it?
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah? Exactly? Has it? Has it?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Though? But has it?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like seriously Robert has it?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Has it? Because I don't know exactly?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And I think in this business, of which I am
a very nascent member, but you know, even in the
book world and stuff, there is such an element of
the show must go on. And that's true of everything.
And I don't just mean like current situations aside. I
mean in general, the show must go on is the
name of the game. And anyone who sort of doesn't
(14:55):
want the show to go on, you either get left over, there.
Way that I say that my husband and daughter sometimes
handle my depression is just by stepping over it, like
it's a dead body on the floor onto the.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Next event, like, okay, is mom coming up? I love
to drag.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So that's so strange as well, like the idea of
it being other than you, like mom's dead body, that
they have to step away, like it's sort of, oh,
let's put it in the second person so it isn't
actually happening to me.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Which is helpful, which is something I should perhaps by the.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Way, I think I might have said this on here before,
but my editor, she is the most incredible woman. She's
very briefly my editor, and she gave me this incredible note.
She was like, I want you to look up the
emotional places in your book where you suddenly go into
the second person, where you know when you're feeling agonized,
where your heart is breaking, you know when you feel
like a dead body that people are stepping up, And
she said, I just want you to just just just
(15:53):
for a laugh, put it all into the first person.
And I wrote it and I literally felt like I
was going to throw up as I was writing my
heart is breaking, I feel like a dead body people
stepping over Like it was so interesting psychologically, and now
I start thinking, now I do it with passages of
bits that I'm writing.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
If I don't feel connected, I'll just throw it.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Into a different EOV exactly, Yeah, and see if that
shifts that. Maybe that's a trick that all writers know.
But it was so we do it as women though
my friends do it. Yes, my girlfriends do it, and
I now stop them and go, you're saying you, and
I know you mean I, and I think if you
say I, we can be in the room with us more.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That's so interesting, and it's something just from the writing
angle of it.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I think about all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Like most of the time, I'm not that excited to
talk about like the quote unquote craft things because I
feel like I've got so much other stuff going.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
But that is the one thing that I think I've got, Robinster,
That's that's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I love asking a fiction writer, this, what relationship, real
or fictionalized defines love for you.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Fictionalized was Carrie Elways and Robin Wright and the Princess Bride.
That's what told me what love is. And then I
have to say, my husband and I. We fight literally
every single day. There is not a day that our
daughter doesn't say, this is the stupidest thing I've ever
(17:35):
heard anyone argue about.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Can you guys stop?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Because it was like about the coffee maker and he's
like logical and autistic and ADHD and I have OCDS,
so we have all these dueling mental illnesss with it,
argue with each other, alongside child wounds and all of that.
But I have to say that the love that he
has for me, that he says I'm not living in
(18:00):
our actual love story yet but he will wait there
until I do that is I gotta say. I really
like that. It feels like the most real love story
available to me. He also at one point said, don't worry.
One day you're gonna get all the little things done
that are on your little lists, and we're going to
have one day where we're happy and you're happy, and
(18:22):
that day is going to come.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
So let's just live your life.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Keep doing what you're doing and being sad and thinking
and not trusting me and thinking nothing's real, and one
day you're going to be able to enjoy it all
and then we'll die.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Oh my god, Oh my god. I love your husband.
It's that roomy quote again.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Here it is out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing,
There is a field. I'll meet you there while the
soul lies down in the grass. The world is too
full to talk about ideas language. Even the phrase each
other doesn't make any sense. Oh, oh my god, that's
your husband. I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
We'll see if it's actually.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Exactly that's the thing. It's like, I don't know that
when you trust, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It's so funny because that is an everyday occurrence. It
seems to me trusting you wake up every day and
you go and you do a situational assessment. Can I
trust that this is breakfast and everything is okay?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
All right? I can. That's as good as it gets.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Sometimes I think blanket trust is not actually functional possible.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
It's really not.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But I think people always say that it is. My
husband's therapist had said to him the reason that when
he was afraid to fly. He's like, it's because you
don't trust the pilot. And it's like, well, why should.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Why don't we know the pilot?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I never met him, Like what, I should trust the
pilot because that's his job. Should I trust the doctor
that messed up my knee surgery? And now I need
a full replate, like should I trust them implicitly? Should
we just trust people? Because I've trusted people and had
a lot of things left up about it. So it's like,
you know, went into a meeting the other day and
the person was like, well, you know, I might not
(20:07):
want to say that because you know, people always sue
us for stealing their ideas, And I'm like, well, I'm
just going to go into this blindly trusting like I've
done everything else, and see how that works for me,
because I just can't do it any other way.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I listen, I am with you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I will make a choice to trust even though life
proves over and over again that shit often doesn't work out.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, I just don't think that's the point.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think you have to take that as shit is
not going to work out for the most part, but
the times that it does are going to be so great,
and something usually comes It dovetails into the last question
I ask on this podcast. Invariably something comes out of
the shit. That's not a reason to pursue it, but
it's definitely worth keeping in mind.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
You know, it's vital to keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
In fact, I'm nervous to ask you what is the
quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Because but what is the quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I think my addiction to my fear. I think I'm
addicted to my fear. And I think that I don't
think I've made a conscious decision to let go of it,
because I still believe it protects me even though it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Okay, So.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Who is the you knowing that, mannie?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I'm trying to figure that out. I'm like, who am
I without the fear? I say this to my husband
all the time. He's like, you just got to let
go of it. I'm like, if I let go of that,
there'll be nothing here.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
But the person, the person who is here observing that
you sitting here talking to me. Yeah, is that like
a psychological shift? Is that maybe because you're a writer
where you can actually you shift the pav even on
your own experience, by going, I do this thing. I
am addicted to fear. I think I will not be
protected if I let go of it. Who is that
(22:13):
person talking? Who is talking that sense? Because we all
have that and I want to fucking know who she
is because all those people should get together and have tea.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah, exactly, and those people should stick.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Around and keep the wheels on the wagon, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And that's one of the reasons why I write is
to remember that, Like when I look back and see
words that I've written when I'm in a clearer state,
it feels a little bit helpful.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
But it also feels like who is that?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Like you just said, I know how to have self
awareness about what I'm doing, and then I know what
I'm like when I'm in the cargo holds of indefensible fear.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
And fatrid and shame. But I don't know where the
twain meet. But that is a.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Really that's a great like the person who's like I
want to think the robinsful, like where is the exactly?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Or maybe it's just about like she is there, like
when you look back or when I read your books
and I feel your clarity. She is there, like she
is demonstrably there. So perhaps it's not so much like
how do I find her and make her stick around?
It's more about.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Going, No, she is there. It's the statue inside the marble.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
There is all this other stuff around her, and maybe
it's about and I'm saying this generally because this is
not you in isolation. I am fascinated, like, and this
conversation has triggered this thing that I think about at
four o'clock in the morning, which is the wise woman
who talks to us and calms us, and we call
her our self awareness.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
She is real. She is as real as our fear.
She is as real as.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Our negative slaggy old slagface. He tells us that we're
square face and.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Teeth is so much better. I feel like that's such
a better jew V. That's really good.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's it because gvteth is as mean as.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Tiftyp face, Like yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Anyway, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Maybe we just have to leave room for that clarity
when you look back, instead of going, oh, I was
so clear, it's yeah, but she is there. She's living
alongside the mad woman, and that's maybe that's all right.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
That's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I need to write that down because I feel like,
just for my own like the mad Woman, like the
Jane Eyre you know whatever, and the attic living yes,
and it's okay, you know, I'm literally writing that down
because I just feel like it'll remind me that it's okay,
like the whole shadow aspect of.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Ourselves making room for them.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
But what's so interesting is the POV stuff in writing,
which I think is so fascinating. What you were saying
about the idea of turning it on yourself and saying
I and then feeling the eye of that. I wrote
a short story when I was getting my MFA at
Boston University, and the short story was completely in the
second person.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
And this other writer because you know, you go around the.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Room and critique everyone's writing, and it was very aggressive.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You do this because you.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
It was like the character themselves was a sort of
bad person, not bad, just like flawed human, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Not bad, but you know, president.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Whatever, President, Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But this other writer in the class was like, I
felt so aggressed upon by Lisa's story because it was
like you take the subway to blah blah blah because
you feel like that girl doesn't deserve whatever. Like it
was all this and I was just like so fascinated
by that that she had felt and I kind of
(25:51):
was the feeling I wanted to elicit, but that she
had felt that, and the you of it had even
though we were in a writing class and writing in
the second person, is you know, well something that people do.
I just remember her feeling that way, and when you
said that, your editor gave you that note and you
put it back on the eye, and I just I
was wondering, like about doing that with that even though
(26:12):
it's gone.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
But you know, it's just a really interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It is.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Listen the POV Like, I asked that quite a lot,
like who is the POV four? Is it for me
to create distance from the scary things I'm saying that
maybe they're not fiction, maybe they're real. Or is it
because I think it's a cool tool. Yeah, quite interesting
just to I don't know. Maybe it's just about the
interrogation of it.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Yeah, totally. I think everything is about that.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
So what question would you most like? Answered?
Speaker 4 (26:46):
God, I'm going to give you something that's rather dark to.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I wouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Thank you for my next book.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's about shocker grief, the grief of being alive essentially,
not the grief of being alive like full stop, but
the grief that comes with just consciousness, whether it's mental
illness or all of that. And one of the people
I've been speaking to is a doctor who performs euthanasia
on otherwise physically healthy people with mental illness who no
(27:25):
longer want to be around. And he's a brilliant doctor,
and he's under a lot of investigation for what he's doing.
But I do not disagree at all. I know many
people do, but I think that ultimately this is the
same question about control over women's bodies. Is having control
over when you live and die should be something that
(27:47):
we each have over our own selves, just.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Like women should, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And this doctor I was asking him if anything had
ever given him pause, and he said the only thing
that had was this man whose wife was about to
be euthanized, who said to the doctor as she was dying,
what if in the next world she's feeling the same things,
(28:16):
but she's left all of us. So my question that
I want answered is what happens next. Should we be
running towards that field, or should we terry a bit
the way.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Should we make another movie and do another ten thousand steps,
or should I im in the field and Russell Crowe
wafting his hand along the golden ears of corn or
wheat or whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
The fuck it was?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I feel you let me tell you, it's probably the
number one question that people want to know. But that
was the most brilliant, dark, amazing answer.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
You brought into play. Like I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I knew that there were like pods in Switzerland, but
I guess I've only ever thought of that with people
who have like diagnoses of like Parkinson's or als or cancer.
And I think it's heartbreaking for me to think that
people would be suffering so terribly with their mental health
they would want to end their life. There was a
lot in that, but ultimately I agree with you. I
(29:25):
would love to know we're gonna know this ends with
all of us dying, Like right, it has the same ending.
I wonder how it actually would affect our lives.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
If we need, we need totally.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I probably eat a lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It would probably just mean better to know. It's like,
you know, after the election, it's like, well.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Now we know, now we know what we're staring.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's like getting a diagnosis. Now we know it's the
unknown of it. Knowledge is power and the unknown is
an unending loop of just and also that without having
the unending loop, maybe we'd be I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
I guess the answer is.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I think it's all we're left with. We have to
cozy up to the unknown because we're most like we're
not going to find out. Yeah, I will tell you briefly.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I did a performance in a theater with hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of people of this play called White Rabbit,
Red Rabbit. And it is a play by this amazing
playwright called Nasim Sulamanpour and he is an Iranian playwright
who is not allowed to leave Iran, and he has
essentially sent.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
His play out into the world.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And here's the kicker. You perform the play sight unseen.
There is an envelope on the chair on the stage
when you walk on and you undo the envelope and
you take out the play and you begin to read
it and it is happening in.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Real time and you're unknown. Wow it is.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It was the most extraordinary experience to have to step
out there into I already know what that's like to
step out onto a stage and the fear and the
nerves and everything that goes with it, but to not
know what is going to happen next. And it reminded
me of being a kid where every day when my
mum would like slam the door in the summer and
be like through.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
The letterbox, come back when it's dark.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
The possibility of anything and everything happened now was all
present at the same time. And the crazy thing was,
or the amazing thing was it drowned out the fear
of what will I do because it was happening so
much in the lowness of now, there wasn't any room
the theor actually was subordinate to the now. Yes, fucking cool.
(31:32):
Oh god, that's so cool. But anyway, I wonder if
our unknown as being more comfortable with the unknown, maybe
that is like something we can all look at and
think about and do in our lives.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And what you just said was really it was really
helpful because it also is something that I can relate to,
not the performative ass but the nowness of the way
that you just said.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
That was so helpful to me, So like, good, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I only ever say the stuff that I need to
listen to or learn.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I think that's the most divinely helpful stuff is the
stuff we tell ourselves that we feel comfortable enough to
share with others. I think that's the path to healing.
And I really deeply appreciate you saying.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
That, hey, wow, good right next one.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
What would be your last meal?
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Okay, that's easy ish.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think sushi is my favorite thing, like a really
sensational oh ma case of just the most beautiful fish
and just like in a really like clean and cozy,
subterranean restaurant.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Oh my god, I love Okay, there's a lot to
n Why do you want it to be subterranean?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I like the sort of like secret of dining spots
that aren't like the hipster dining spots. I used to
when I was in my twenties in the city, I
would conserve my entire week's paycheck just to have one
sushi lunch where all the Japanese businessmen went in the
(33:24):
forties and midtown during the day, and I would be
the only like twenty four year old girl like reading
like a copy of The New Yorker while like getting
search and but like checking the price because it's like, oh,
I don't have a corporate card, so I just this
is insane.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
But the subterranean part, I don't know. I like when
things are under ground. I like sub.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
I like like sub.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
I like sub.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I like that sub is cozy. Yeah, as opposed to claustrophobic.
That's very interesting. I'm going to write that down.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Sub is cozy.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
You might think about getting that needle point on a
pillow t shirt. I might even make that for you, Lisa,
sub is cozy?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
So hard.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Also, just because you mentioned that you might be.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
O c D.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, I've always thought that sushi is the perfect food
for someone who is OCD because it is so just
painfully beautifully arranged and symmetrical and even and organized.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Is that part of why you love it? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But until you have said it, I would never have
made that connection. But absolutely, it's a stunning connection.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
It's an organized, sub cozy, totally fish first.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. It's
just like, does everybody feel the way with you?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
All.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
There's a few people I'd like you to call. Actually,
on my behalf, I bet you not understanding fifty P
face because if you things I've learned while talking to her.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
She is everything. Did you tell her what your favorite
food was? She would make it feel so much better?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
I love that that's your last meal, all right?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We've arrived here at our last question, which feels really
strange and like too soon.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
In your life.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Can you tell me about something that has grown out
of a personal disaster.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I suppose what my husband and I say a lot
is that if my dad were still alive, he would
convinced me.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
Not to marry my husband.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
And so he says, at the very least, because your
dad died, you were able to get to me, because
he wouldn't have let you.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I mean, Michael, the first of all, your husband's so dark,
that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I think it is, Like I think my mom would
have loved him and said that like he was the
better half, and my dad should have liked him but
would have been too suspicious of his differences, because like
my dad was severe OCD and this is severe ADHD, which,
(36:16):
unless you are like reading a manual, you're just like,
why is.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
This person's just fucking asshole?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Like if you have an entirely different disease, you're just
like you're an asshole, and the person's like, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
I just have the same problems you do.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
They're just over here, and it's like you know, so
I know because I'm unable to recognize his disorders in
favor of mine. That my father, who also had OCD
and was similar to me and controlling and all of that,
would have had similar issues with him.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
God, that's so interesting. Wait, what's your daughter like? She's
a wild You didn't talk about her.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
She's a wild beast.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
We were doing this thing the other night where I
was just like, all I do is talk about feelings.
All I do is and I feel like I have
an avoidant child, like my avoidant husband, and I'm just like,
oh my god. So like the other day, we're in
bed and you know, we're like reading and she'll say
something like roundbreaking, like so and so said this to
me and it made me feel blah blah blah. And
then she'll just stop. And then she's like, wait, can
(37:16):
we read Babysitters Club? And I'm like, wait, you just
said something explosive we need to talk about. She's like, yeah,
I'm done.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
I got it out. And I'm like, but you didn't
get it out.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
You said something and it was like explosive, and now
we used to talk about it and she was like, Mom,
I'm done, I got it out.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
We're done. We can close that up put it away,
and I was like, you can't. And then she's like,
tell me a story.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So I was like fine, and then I was like,
in a dark wood behind you know the stories kids love,
in a dark coffin, there's a dark locket. In the
dark locket, are your feelings boxes? Feelings are there? And
she started laughing hysterically.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
And I'm like, oh my god, you're laughing because that's
really what's going on.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Like I'm never going to be able to get in
there either, another box that I must spend the rest
of my life trying to crawl into.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I don't want to, Oh my god. But at least
sub is cozy.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So you're spending time underground looking through in the box
in the locket, in the box in the lock you
will enjoy.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I swear to god, I don't know that I've ever
felt more understood, like at all. And like I said,
I feel like when people come over and see our
dog and they're like so much, and it's like that
dog acts like that with everybody. I feel like a
little bit that way.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Now I'm like, oh my god, Mini is really get
to me.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Everybody.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's because I love you, and I think I know
you because of reading your books, and.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Also you're just wonderful.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
You're wonderful, like you're wonderful to talk to, and your
books change the way people feel, and they are comforting
and they are the best companion. I've had them on
many hard journeys. And it's really cool to be able
to sit and talk and you're so generous to talk
about painful things and things that we traditionally don't talk about.
(39:12):
You know what's cool is like maybe your daughter will
listen to this one day, and like you are just
demonstrating what it is to investigate.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
It's good for all of us to do that. So
thank you so much. You're amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
I think you so much. Truly, You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me, Mini Driver
Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support
from Jennifer Bassett, Zoe Denkler, and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
The theme music is also by Me.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
And additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Jim
Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella, Anik Oppenheim, A,
Nick Muller, and a net Wolfe.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
A w kPr, Will
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Pearson, Nikki Itoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tiggadore
Host
Minnie Driver
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