April 8, 2025 • 32 mins
Join @thebuzzknight as he celebrates the 20th anniversary of De La Soul's iconic album, The Grind Date." Released in 2004, this album marked a significant return for the group, featuring collaborations with MF DOOM, Ghostface Killah, and Common. Posdnuos shares insights into the making of this timeless album, which includes new tracks like "Respect" and "Bigger." Buzz delves into De La Soul's enduring influence on hip-hop, their innovative approach, and the challenges they've faced in the music industry. This episode is a tribute to their legacy and a look into what makes their music remain relevant today.
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Buzz Knight
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
You know you love music. You didn't have the amazing
records that your parents could have in the house and
just listening and you love music. But they're listening to
a radio and all the cool, amazing records that now
they consider yacht rock or whatever, like, you know, whether
it's Boston and Chicago or Steely Dan and do everybody
(00:23):
all that we were disaffected by in such a positive way.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to this episode of Taking a Walk with your
host Buzz Night, where we're honored to have Pause from
the legendary hip hop group De La Soul joining us
today we celebrate the twenty eighth anniversary of their iconic
album The Grind Date.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Let's take a walk down.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Memory Lane with Pause as we explore the making of
this timeless album and it's lasting impact on music on
the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, Paus, thanks for being on Taking a Walk. I
really appreciated And since the podcast it's called taking a Walk,
I did want to ask you if you could take
a walk with somebody, living or dead, who would you
take a walk with them? Where would you take a
walk with them?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Wow, that's an amazing question. Living or Dead's so many
people I would want to do that with you know what. Wow,
If I may be honest, I would want to take
a walk with my mother. I lost my mother in
nineteen eighty She died like better if I graduated, So
(01:34):
I lost her in nineteen eighty seven. So I would
take a walk with my mom's because I would want
to just take a walk with her and see if
she approved of how I you know how I've been
as a father to my five kids, and I would
love to take a walk with my mother.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
That's sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it.
So congratulations on the twentieth anniversary of the Grind Date,
and you've put out a really amazing compilation of studio
work bonus tracks, just a real love affair with the
(02:12):
with the Grind Date production and album and release. Uh,
tell me how it feels going back and kind of
working through all that and how it it continues to
feel so fresh.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I mean, it's a it's always for me a blessing,
you know, grind Date. You know you're talking about we're
already like we were already six something albums in and
you know, you you get to this point to still
be creating an album and and be a part with
two other people that feels still dedicated to making quality music,
(02:50):
trying different things, and and just you know, have a
like a sense of goodness when it comes to create,
create and wanting to create, and then to now have
that thing you created come up on an anniversary this
far down the line and people still feel it's relevant.
(03:13):
It still feels fresh, and even to myself it feels
that way, you know. I just I just really step
back and feel like I'm blessed because you know, you know,
when you're creating in the moment, I don't know if
you really say, like and I want just to be
here forever. You know, like if I say something now,
you know it's you know, I want it to be relevant.
(03:35):
You just never know. So let alone feel like it's
not dated. And so I feel like it feels great, man,
it feels good and I'm just proud of it. And yeah,
to even know some of the songs that for the
for the reasons at the time that we left off
of the album that we can now add it and
it it feels like, you know, we got people hitting
(03:57):
us now like wow, why do you even leave that off?
Why didn't you? Cluth Is and you know, so it's
it's it's just an honor, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I love how it's it's so it's so great for
the fans to be able to not only go back,
but to find those you know, those gems that you
know have suddenly appeared, and that's so cool. What was
so amazing about that whole album as well? So many
of the collaborators that were part of it. Can you
(04:28):
talk about that because it was full of additional you know,
friends and support who really you know, made a big
difference on it obviously.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Definitely, I mean wow, I mean you figure j D
or Dylla. You know, he was someone from since the
Stakes is High album. You know, we felt like whatever
consists of him, he he will. We just felt like
he will always be an ingredient on any project we
(05:01):
do from that point on. So you know, you figure
when grind Date was, when we started working on there,
he was one of the first guys we hit. We
love Matt Lib, always loved Matt Lib. We were running
out in and out of a lot of places with
Doom and so you know, we saw our clothes. He
(05:23):
had this relationships music relationship relationship with him, so we
definitely look forward to like, hey, let's try something, let's
look into what he could bring to the table and
with us and he I mean wow, I mean like
the amount of music he gave to us to listen
to it was so much like it was almost like
(05:44):
I would just spend days like you know, just like wow,
like this is incredible. And we tried actually a lot
of different things to to some of his music. So
it was just great to have that mind state that
Matt Lib had to then marry ourselves to to who
(06:06):
and what he is and uh super Dave Wes, I
mean Dave Wes's that's like my my little brother. I
mean we became I mean like he became very close
to all of us, but I mean like he's just
like a he's a good friend of mine, I feel,
and from U take getting music from him from the
(06:27):
first Aoy album once again, he was just he was
just like you know, it was almost like a production team.
Like at that point, Dave West was damned near like
a part of Daylave, you know, so we was definitely
I mean, he would probably be one of the first
people we start like scratching and getting stuff from and
configuring and you know, even when we would get stuff
(06:48):
from like say j D or Dylah. You know, like
Dave West could be sitting right there and he would
be a part of the think tanking and hearing what
we're trying to do, and you would give give advice.
So super Dave West was just an intricate part of
what we were doing. Jake One, man, it was. It
was crazy because like this beautiful brother named John Moore,
(07:11):
he had became friends with us. He lived in Seattle.
And Vitamin D, who's just an absolute amazing artist and producer.
He's John Moore's He was a younger brother and so
we got to know that camp and so bigger is
what Vitamin D did, and we had actually tried some
(07:34):
other tracks from him, but it was just like by
dealing with Vitamin D, he was like, Yo, it's this
guy we know named Jake One. You may want to
listen to him. The rest is history because you know,
Jick One gave us Rocko Came Flow and days of
our lives. We was like, Yo, this is absolutely crazy.
(07:55):
So yeah, it was just this too much fun man
making those making that with them, and ghost Face has
just been you know, we look up to him lyrically
person from his personality what he brings to the Wu
Tang clan and all his solo projects. You know, when
(08:18):
Dave West had put together the track that wound up
becoming He Comes, you know, we just just thinking of
different people and we was like, man, listen like ghost
Face Kill Live he was on this record. He would
just bring so much life to it in which he did,
you know, so it was just amazing to happen to
be a part in common is just our family, calm
(08:39):
and his family. He even like, I think we ran
into him somewhere and he was like, look, man, you
know I still rhyme. Don't don't get it twisted. You
know I'm acting, but I can rhyme. And we all laughing.
He's like, yo, I won't be on this new album.
Work on a new album. And so we figured out
we had to jake one beat waiting and we was
like trying to figure out who to get on him.
He's like, yo, send that to comment or you know, communist.
(09:01):
It's something that's always so amazing on it and flavor
Flave Man, Flavor Flave Wow. I mean like Dave was
like mersed like this this mad live record like it
just sounds like labor should be talking on it. I said, yo,
let me ask, and you know when we asked him,
(09:23):
you know, he was immediately with it, and like I
just remembered him coming to the studio and he was like, yo, man,
you know, like if y'all really think about it, he's like,
I don't talk. You don't really find me talking on
anything outside of public entity, you know, like you know,
and I was like, word, He's like, yo, Like I
don't normally do that. So you know, like you know,
(09:45):
like I love y'all and like to do like ad libs,
like to be doing ad libs, like if I'm doing
that's what I do with Chuck. Cause I was like, nah,
you did some ice cream? He said nah, he was
like ice shoot thing. I rhymed. He's like, but to
be that, that s nature. I'm rocking up against someone
with ad libs. He said, I only do that with
Chuck And he said, I love y'all and that's why
(10:06):
I'm doing this. I was like wow. I was like,
it's an honor, you know. So that's what we really
got out of him on that record, and he I
mean that part he added to that record it just
took it to a whole another level for us. So
you know, man, it's just so many great people we
had on there. Yummy as well. Yummy is just a great,
(10:27):
a great at that point friend of ours, a little
little sister of ours, and we just thought her voice
could be magic on the record. To know a record. No,
so she she came to through and did what she
does best was just sang. She didn't sing, she sang.
And of course, man, the incredible like I said, MF doom,
(10:50):
that record just sounded so tormenting. We was like, yo,
we was like this sounds like MF doom, like doom,
got a rhyme on this, and we reached out. I mean,
he came through, he had I just remember that session
so well because you know, he had to mask with
(11:10):
him and he sat down. He had this devilish grin
and I was like, oh boy, what you got we're doing? No, No,
I'm ready to let me in the booth. And when
he went in that booth, he lit that thing a fire.
So I was like, yeah, you knew you was about
to blow this off because no, you know, you know,
and I was like, oh God, this record is going
(11:33):
to be incredible. To this day, I really have no
idea why we didn't do a video for that that.
I mean, like, that song was the song that because
even when we got that record from Jake, Jake put
that on the beat CD he sent me by mistake.
So when I told him, like, Yo, it's this song,
it's just like these these people singing and it slows down,
(11:55):
he was like, oh shit. He was like, wow, he's
a possible. I didn't even really mean I wasn't both
to put that on there, and I was like, well,
it's on there and we're taking it, and he was like, yo,
I wouldn't even have thought y'all would have wanted to
take this, I are you crazy? And yeah, that rock
cocaine flow as Wow. Man, that was just and like
(12:15):
I said, once Done got on it, man, it was
just it was just a dream come true to do
something with Done, who was a really good friend of ours,
and finally get him on something amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Do you have a sense when you're in that moment
that you're really in rarefied air in terms of the
chemistry and the spirit of the whole collaboration.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I think there are moments like that for me. I
mean honestly, if we're talking about just specifically grind Day,
that's what I felt with Rock Cocaine Flow. Like I
was like, man, this is going to be incredible. And
then I was even like, yo, what if we put
(13:00):
let's put let's put Lenny Kravitz on it at the
end it's playing the guitar. And then people was like,
come on, Merc, you're going too far. You're going too far.
He was there was he was like, look, you could
end it with I hear the idea about ending it
with someone playing the guitar and it takes on this
thing and you're rhyme. He said, we can definitely try that,
but he was like Lenny Kravitz, He's like, no, no, no,
(13:21):
let's let's don't do that. Let's don't do that. I said,
all right, all right, cool, cool. But yeah, I mean,
I mean that record was just special. Man. It was
truly truly special. But like everything else, you know, like
of course, I mean verbal clap just like, it was
just had this amazing feel to it. And once I
(13:43):
had added to to the production and I added the
put on things aside, everyone was like, Yo, this is
gonna be crazy. So yeah, it was it's just moments
where you're just like, you just get these goosebumps. Man,
You're like, Yo, this is just going to be something
really really cool.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah man, well yeah yeah. Can you talk about what
inspired you to to first start your journey in music
and how it all really came together first.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I mean, it was just something that grab you in
the neighborhood. You know, we all were you know, you
love music. You know you you can have the amazing
records that your parents could have in the house and
it's listening and you love music, and you the era
of like, you know, being on your little your roller
(14:37):
skates and listen to all the great disco or R
and B, but then listening to a radio and all
the cool, amazing records that now they consider yacht rock
or whatever, like, you know, whether it's Boston and Chicago
or Steely Dan and Doybody, all that we were disaffected
by in such a positive way. So when hip hop,
(15:00):
this thing that came about called hip hop where you're
just rhyming over your favorite rock record, your favorite jazz record,
or just some record you don't even know where it
comes from. But it just happened to have this breakdown
that older statesman who is maybe only like eight years
older than us. They've now made this a standard, like
(15:21):
this Sirone record. I didn't know who Sarone was until
our rocking in the pocket and then so I mean like, yeah,
it just took that made me feel like this is
what I want to do, like I want to do
this now. Mind you, I'm super young, I'm in school,
but it really just held your heart. It has helped
(15:43):
your soul. So when it was about really feeling like,
you know what we can, like, you know, we got
these crews. You listen to these crews on these different tapes.
You know, you listen, you hear Bizmarcky on the tape
rhyming and biz Mark is always showing up to our school.
And here it is. You can hear of these tapes
of Dougie freshen them in the basement. You know, let's
(16:03):
you know, let's get equipment and let's let us start
doing the same thing. It was just as simple as that,
and people just start getting better at it. And you know,
you have people saying like, yo, you're pretty good at this.
And you know, I always loved to write. If I
wasn't doing this, I could have been a writer. You know,
I was into comic books. I was always into like
(16:23):
stuff like that. So yeah, I mean rhyming. It was
just it just called out to me. Hip hop honestly
called out to me. Yeah, Me, Dave and Mace Man
just practicing in the house and just getting better. And
and I mean honestly once Prince Paul once, you know,
(16:44):
because he was just such an amazing DJ in the
neighborhood and you know, to see him get down with
Stetso Sonic and then they made this record that just
energized the entire the entire neighborhood. It was like Paul
made it, and he was like, may the I being
from Long Island can make it. And then you start
seeing you know, wow, these guys from Base Shore EPMD
(17:06):
made it, or these guys who we actually met before
called JVC Force, they got to wreck it out. And
you know, all these artists from your your your Same
Island Rock, cam Biz, Marcky, they just energized you and
confirmed that you can do this. And so we just
took our chances. And that's how we just were blessed
(17:26):
enough to finally put together that demo and and have
a bunch of labels love it, and we went with
Tommy Boy.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Were there early mentors that really kind of helped drive
that work and that passion and fuel that that you know,
enthusiasm or was it really just observing what was going
on and being, you know, just so observant of it
that that was enough for.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
You observant honestly, just you know, watching whatever video you watch,
listening to whatever radio personality. We were young, but we
would go we would leave Long Island and go into
the city to go to whatever the club was at
that point, which a big one was Latin Quarters, and
you know, we had a fake ID and we made
it in somehow and you know you see red alert
(18:22):
DJing and you know then back then there weren't no
VIP sections, so you I could be on the floor
looking at the stage kros One bdps go out to
get on booget on productions. But Caine, Big Daddy Kane
is standing right there, and Rox and Chante's like you,
(18:43):
they were standing and standing right there in your vicinity
and it's like all that energy you took in how
they interact you looking at them, how they interact with
their friends. And you go back to Long Island, you're like,
you just energize and you're writing and you're trying. You're
just trying to get better at what you're doing. So
it's really observing, I would say one Mentor definitely was
(19:04):
as well. He lived on my block. Our music teacher,
mister Collins, Ever Collins and every Collins. He was a
tour drummer for Eisley Brothers. He was the music teacher
at our school. He was he was in the group Surface,
who made songs like you know, you know, you know,
(19:25):
make me happy, and so he was a writer in Surface.
He was in that group. So it was he was
like a you know, a very humbling superstar in our neighborhood.
But he was much older, of course, and he so
like he was just always had great words for us,
great understanding, and so just to have like all the
(19:46):
things you were viewing on your own you could just
talk about from this amazing musician who was a part
of the industry. It was just those are all the
all the other all the people or like whether it's
him or just the things you observe that you use
to take in to then use as input or output
into what he was trying to do.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Was there a moment that was a particular turning point
for Dala Soul that you could sort of pinpoint.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
When when we felt like it was going to happen,
or even after it.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Happened, when you felt like it was going to happen.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I mean, honestly, once once Paul came into the picture,
we knew it was gonna happen, like Paul working along
with Mace on something like Mace was working on something,
because it just it was like it was like another
DJ in the group. Actually he went on to want
(20:44):
to do his own thing. He was just like, yo,
I don't know if it's like I don't know if
this could really happen here with y'all guys, and maybe
it looks like I can DJ for this person at
who's over here the Jews crew And you know it
was this young lady named Mom Dimple's d was part
of Cold Chilling. He was DJing for her or I
(21:04):
think one time like maybe one of Light's DJ Light
DJ had got sick and he did something with her.
So he just felt like you know what, I could
just do something over here, doesn't really seem like something's
happening here. Mace, he was now being pulled into doing
something with this guy around the surrounding neighborhood name Gangster B,
(21:27):
and Gangster B was going to now do something on
this label that mister Collins, who lived on my block
he was trying to put together. So Mace took it
upon himself to kind of say things differently. He was like, look,
I can do this, but this could be the way
to get us in to the door, you know, get
us in. And I felt like, wow, that's that's amazing
that even though Mace could have this opportunity, he's staying
(21:50):
loyal to me and Dave about what we could be doing.
And so mister Collins brought Prince Paul in to try
to remix this record that Mace and this other EMC
gangs to be put together. And that's when Mace and
Paul really started talking about Mace start telling him like, yo,
I got these guys Merce and David Paul knew who
(22:12):
we were from the neighborhood, but he was like where
he was like Merce like little Mersey because he knew
my older brother, He's like he rhymes, and he tried
to tell me Dave Jolliport rhymes and he's like yo.
And so when Paul heard the demos of what Me,
Mace and Dave was doing, he just felt like, this
(22:33):
is what I want to be in a business. And
he was like, please tell your guys come to my house.
Let's have a meeting. And once Paul had that meeting
with us, he overdubbed our demos with stuff he added,
and he was like, I can promise you can have
a shot. That's what I will promise. And I just
(22:54):
knew it was going to happen from there, and from
there it did. Him and Daddy Oh. We went into
the studio Callipe Studios professionally fixed up our songs and
him and Daddy LL started shopping. Daddy O was shopping
an MC. He had a blind MC. I forgot his name,
and say that say Daddy O's artists was on said A.
(23:17):
Paul had us on side B and they were shop
it and people were just falling in love with us.
So I knew it was going to happen from that point.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
You know, you faced challenges over your career with record
labels and sample clearances and things of that nature. How
did those experiences shape your outlook and your resilience in
the midst of the industry.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, it definitely got you more focused on being on
point with your business. We handed in the music. I mean,
we've still told the story of thousands of times, hundreds
of thousands, but we handed in the music. We we
we you know, it was kind of like, you know,
certain songs that was like obvious, like that's that's pegt
frum stilly there, and but this may be weird horn
(24:07):
or blah blah blah, this is from this record, so
we hand it in the notes. And so when it
came back that these things weren't cleared, it just really
got us on top of our business. And mind you,
I mean, between d LA Soul and Biz Markey, we
actually created the business of sample lawyers. So I mean like, yeah,
(24:29):
it just got us more on point on making sure. Okay,
so let's write all this information down. We will make
sure that once we hand all these things into the label,
they have to give us confirmation show us that you
know this is being cleared, like, oh, you sampled that record,
so now the master recording that's owned by Universal or whoever.
(24:51):
They're showing that. It's a quote, so we will see
it all from beginning to end. There's a quote out.
This is what they want. Do y'all want to pay
that for this sample? We could say yes, so no
we say yeah, okay, and then you saw when it
was the sample was paid for. So it just really
helped us to be more more on point with the
business side of things. And yeah, it was it was
(25:12):
a little rough at some point, but even in the roughness,
there was still like just honestly amazing things that came
out of it, because you know, like even when the
Turtles suited us, it was like, but then when we
sit down with their lawyer, it was just like, you know,
he's a big fan, and it was just like moments
of this this sunshine through rain, it was like okay,
(25:33):
and you know, and so I mean, yeah, we got
through it, and we just grew up a lot quicker
in terms of understanding the business, which was important because
if you didn't take it upon yourself to take part
in the business side and only paid attention to creativity,
you could turn around and do something that wouldn't be
best for your interests.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
So did you you set up a separate sort of
business vertical on clearance the samples? Is that what you
you said.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well, we worked along with the label, but like it
was an outside clearance that then sent us. So basically, yeah,
an outside clearance company who would let Tommy Boy and
us see okay, so this is what's going on. Like
a Deborah McGann it's DMG, she would be like, okay,
so yeah, like y'all you've now sampled this artist for this,
(26:25):
this composition you put together. This is what the master
recording is saying that they want. This is what the
publishing side writers are saying, do y'all want to pay this?
So we were seeing the paperwork all at the same time,
which allowed us to then know like, okay, so this
is being cleared. This is we didn't just give it
to like certain people at Tommy Boy and just walk
(26:47):
away la la la la lat and next thing you know,
the album comes out. And then because that's what happened
with the first album, like they were, we weren't involved
in whatever and whatever process, whatever was cleared, we didn't know,
and obviously what didn't get cleared because maybe the exact
sat time boy felt like, you know, this is a
great record, but until that point, maybe this just be
(27:09):
a regional record. It may not go big, it may
not become a national thing. And three ft high and rising,
as we know to this day became national international. It flew,
It flew around the world, so it was a lot
of eyes and ears on it, and therefore would it
not just being a regional record. Different companies who could
(27:31):
own that. Sam will be like, yo, this is a
great record, but you know, DayLA's old and reach out
to us. Oldest reading wife could be like yo, like
they never reached out to us, like you know. So
that was the stuff that was happening.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
When you put in a bottle. What it's like to
win a Grammy, explain that to me. How does it feel?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I mean it feels. And I just say this for
me honestly, because like any plaque I have, any award,
I've gotten none of them to this day, I've ever
really put plaques on walls like I've never done that.
Really it's rare, but it's just somewhat of a confirmation
(28:16):
that it just makes you feel like, Wow, this work
we put in people are acknowledging it. I just come
from an era one hundred percent that we never made
records to win Grammys. We never made records to do this,
you know, like we made We made this piece of
art in the midst of just making in that present moment,
(28:38):
this piece of art, and we had the superpower to
make it. We had we we had other people with superpowers,
whether we're management or record execs to now you know,
positively exploit it to now make more people know it's there.
And all that work comes back in this this award
that shows that you did. You've now passed this threshold
(29:03):
of making it to this point and your peers recognize
you in the and the fans recognize you, and it's
a great feeling because it was never honestly made for them,
they just magically could feel as I have as a
music listener, where Steve wanted to make no music for
Kelvin Mercer, but Kelvin Mercer can relate to this Stevie
Wonner record that touched my heart. And that's what I'm
(29:25):
blessed to be as a musician. This group, this group
I'm a part of where fans and listeners can feel
that like you've touched my soul. And therefore I'm going
to spend my money to buy your music or listen
to your music, and we're rewarded for it.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
You may have read my mind to the last question,
which is what's your secret to staying so inspired after
decades in the business.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Constantly listening to new music? And I mean I've always
been like that. So, I mean, whether I was seventeen
years old, I've always was about I don't want to
just try to get use my cassette to record music
off of the FM radio station with the strongest signal.
(30:12):
I will go down to the college radio stations and
try to get the first bit of stuff. I remember,
like this college station that could play demos around the
different regions and I heard two live crew first, like
when they submitted demos to this college station. So and
I'll be like, yo, listen to this. Like I've always
(30:34):
been about studying and listening to music. So even to
this day as a fifty five year old man, like
I'm on every site you can think of, or even
when you're on your respective streaming services, and I allow
that rabbit hole, that suggestive thing to now, oh you
like this, listen to that, and I'll just find a
(30:54):
time to just listen to music, and it inspires even
down to the music, young music that could be like okay,
I wouldn't be talking about this, I ain't trying to
shoot and kill nobody. But the energy and how the
person could present the rhyme and how the music could
move it could draw something that makes me want to
pin something real quick, even if it's into opposition of
(31:17):
what the person is saying, like now, it shouldn't be
like that me right, I'm still getting inspired. So I
think that all plays a part of it. Reading, viewing
things around you, but taking the time to even you know,
shut out the world, shout out the news, shut out
reading and just look at my kids and look at
(31:38):
my wife and all that this plays apart. I sponge
that to put it back into my pen or whatever
I'm creating musically.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Brilliant pause. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time.
Congrats on the release of the twentieth anniversary I say,
celebration of the grind date. And it's an honor to
be able to take a walk with you.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you, thanks for listening to this episode of the
Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with
your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode.
Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
You know you love music. You didn't have the amazing
records that your parents could have in the house and
just listening and you love music. But they're listening to
a radio and all the cool, amazing records that now
they consider yacht rock or whatever, like, you know, whether
it's Boston and Chicago or Steely Dan and do everybody
(00:23):
all that we were disaffected by in such a positive way.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to this episode of Taking a Walk with your
host Buzz Night, where we're honored to have Pause from
the legendary hip hop group De La Soul joining us
today we celebrate the twenty eighth anniversary of their iconic
album The Grind Date.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Let's take a walk down.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Memory Lane with Pause as we explore the making of
this timeless album and it's lasting impact on music on
the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, Paus, thanks for being on Taking a Walk. I
really appreciated And since the podcast it's called taking a Walk,
I did want to ask you if you could take
a walk with somebody, living or dead, who would you
take a walk with them? Where would you take a
walk with them?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Wow, that's an amazing question. Living or Dead's so many
people I would want to do that with you know what. Wow,
If I may be honest, I would want to take
a walk with my mother. I lost my mother in
nineteen eighty She died like better if I graduated, So
(01:34):
I lost her in nineteen eighty seven. So I would
take a walk with my mom's because I would want
to just take a walk with her and see if
she approved of how I you know how I've been
as a father to my five kids, and I would
love to take a walk with my mother.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
That's sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it.
So congratulations on the twentieth anniversary of the Grind Date,
and you've put out a really amazing compilation of studio
work bonus tracks, just a real love affair with the
(02:12):
with the Grind Date production and album and release. Uh,
tell me how it feels going back and kind of
working through all that and how it it continues to
feel so fresh.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I mean, it's a it's always for me a blessing,
you know, grind Date. You know you're talking about we're
already like we were already six something albums in and
you know, you you get to this point to still
be creating an album and and be a part with
two other people that feels still dedicated to making quality music,
(02:50):
trying different things, and and just you know, have a
like a sense of goodness when it comes to create,
create and wanting to create, and then to now have
that thing you created come up on an anniversary this
far down the line and people still feel it's relevant.
(03:13):
It still feels fresh, and even to myself it feels
that way, you know. I just I just really step
back and feel like I'm blessed because you know, you know,
when you're creating in the moment, I don't know if
you really say, like and I want just to be
here forever. You know, like if I say something now,
you know it's you know, I want it to be relevant.
(03:35):
You just never know. So let alone feel like it's
not dated. And so I feel like it feels great, man,
it feels good and I'm just proud of it. And yeah,
to even know some of the songs that for the
for the reasons at the time that we left off
of the album that we can now add it and
it it feels like, you know, we got people hitting
(03:57):
us now like wow, why do you even leave that off?
Why didn't you? Cluth Is and you know, so it's
it's it's just an honor, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I love how it's it's so it's so great for
the fans to be able to not only go back,
but to find those you know, those gems that you
know have suddenly appeared, and that's so cool. What was
so amazing about that whole album as well? So many
of the collaborators that were part of it. Can you
(04:28):
talk about that because it was full of additional you know,
friends and support who really you know, made a big
difference on it obviously.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Definitely, I mean wow, I mean you figure j D
or Dylla. You know, he was someone from since the
Stakes is High album. You know, we felt like whatever
consists of him, he he will. We just felt like
he will always be an ingredient on any project we
(05:01):
do from that point on. So you know, you figure
when grind Date was, when we started working on there,
he was one of the first guys we hit. We
love Matt Lib, always loved Matt Lib. We were running
out in and out of a lot of places with
Doom and so you know, we saw our clothes. He
(05:23):
had this relationships music relationship relationship with him, so we
definitely look forward to like, hey, let's try something, let's
look into what he could bring to the table and
with us and he I mean wow, I mean like
the amount of music he gave to us to listen
to it was so much like it was almost like
(05:44):
I would just spend days like you know, just like wow,
like this is incredible. And we tried actually a lot
of different things to to some of his music. So
it was just great to have that mind state that
Matt Lib had to then marry ourselves to to who
(06:06):
and what he is and uh super Dave Wes, I
mean Dave Wes's that's like my my little brother. I
mean we became I mean like he became very close
to all of us, but I mean like he's just
like a he's a good friend of mine, I feel,
and from U take getting music from him from the
(06:27):
first Aoy album once again, he was just he was
just like you know, it was almost like a production team.
Like at that point, Dave West was damned near like
a part of Daylave, you know, so we was definitely
I mean, he would probably be one of the first
people we start like scratching and getting stuff from and
configuring and you know, even when we would get stuff
(06:48):
from like say j D or Dylah. You know, like
Dave West could be sitting right there and he would
be a part of the think tanking and hearing what
we're trying to do, and you would give give advice.
So super Dave West was just an intricate part of
what we were doing. Jake One, man, it was. It
was crazy because like this beautiful brother named John Moore,
(07:11):
he had became friends with us. He lived in Seattle.
And Vitamin D, who's just an absolute amazing artist and producer.
He's John Moore's He was a younger brother and so
we got to know that camp and so bigger is
what Vitamin D did, and we had actually tried some
(07:34):
other tracks from him, but it was just like by
dealing with Vitamin D, he was like, Yo, it's this
guy we know named Jake One. You may want to
listen to him. The rest is history because you know,
Jick One gave us Rocko Came Flow and days of
our lives. We was like, Yo, this is absolutely crazy.
(07:55):
So yeah, it was just this too much fun man
making those making that with them, and ghost Face has
just been you know, we look up to him lyrically
person from his personality what he brings to the Wu
Tang clan and all his solo projects. You know, when
(08:18):
Dave West had put together the track that wound up
becoming He Comes, you know, we just just thinking of
different people and we was like, man, listen like ghost
Face Kill Live he was on this record. He would
just bring so much life to it in which he did,
you know, so it was just amazing to happen to
be a part in common is just our family, calm
(08:39):
and his family. He even like, I think we ran
into him somewhere and he was like, look, man, you
know I still rhyme. Don't don't get it twisted. You
know I'm acting, but I can rhyme. And we all laughing.
He's like, yo, I won't be on this new album.
Work on a new album. And so we figured out
we had to jake one beat waiting and we was
like trying to figure out who to get on him.
He's like, yo, send that to comment or you know, communist.
(09:01):
It's something that's always so amazing on it and flavor
Flave Man, Flavor Flave Wow. I mean like Dave was
like mersed like this this mad live record like it
just sounds like labor should be talking on it. I said, yo,
let me ask, and you know when we asked him,
(09:23):
you know, he was immediately with it, and like I
just remembered him coming to the studio and he was like, yo, man,
you know, like if y'all really think about it, he's like,
I don't talk. You don't really find me talking on
anything outside of public entity, you know, like you know,
and I was like, word, He's like, yo, Like I
don't normally do that. So you know, like you know,
(09:45):
like I love y'all and like to do like ad libs,
like to be doing ad libs, like if I'm doing
that's what I do with Chuck. Cause I was like, nah,
you did some ice cream? He said nah, he was
like ice shoot thing. I rhymed. He's like, but to
be that, that s nature. I'm rocking up against someone
with ad libs. He said, I only do that with
Chuck And he said, I love y'all and that's why
(10:06):
I'm doing this. I was like wow. I was like,
it's an honor, you know. So that's what we really
got out of him on that record, and he I
mean that part he added to that record it just
took it to a whole another level for us. So
you know, man, it's just so many great people we
had on there. Yummy as well. Yummy is just a great,
(10:27):
a great at that point friend of ours, a little
little sister of ours, and we just thought her voice
could be magic on the record. To know a record. No,
so she she came to through and did what she
does best was just sang. She didn't sing, she sang.
And of course, man, the incredible like I said, MF doom,
(10:50):
that record just sounded so tormenting. We was like, yo,
we was like this sounds like MF doom, like doom,
got a rhyme on this, and we reached out. I mean,
he came through, he had I just remember that session
so well because you know, he had to mask with
(11:10):
him and he sat down. He had this devilish grin
and I was like, oh boy, what you got we're doing? No, No,
I'm ready to let me in the booth. And when
he went in that booth, he lit that thing a fire.
So I was like, yeah, you knew you was about
to blow this off because no, you know, you know,
and I was like, oh God, this record is going
(11:33):
to be incredible. To this day, I really have no
idea why we didn't do a video for that that.
I mean, like, that song was the song that because
even when we got that record from Jake, Jake put
that on the beat CD he sent me by mistake.
So when I told him, like, Yo, it's this song,
it's just like these these people singing and it slows down,
(11:55):
he was like, oh shit. He was like, wow, he's
a possible. I didn't even really mean I wasn't both
to put that on there, and I was like, well,
it's on there and we're taking it, and he was like, yo,
I wouldn't even have thought y'all would have wanted to
take this, I are you crazy? And yeah, that rock
cocaine flow as Wow. Man, that was just and like
(12:15):
I said, once Done got on it, man, it was
just it was just a dream come true to do
something with Done, who was a really good friend of ours,
and finally get him on something amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Do you have a sense when you're in that moment
that you're really in rarefied air in terms of the
chemistry and the spirit of the whole collaboration.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I think there are moments like that for me. I
mean honestly, if we're talking about just specifically grind Day,
that's what I felt with Rock Cocaine Flow. Like I
was like, man, this is going to be incredible. And
then I was even like, yo, what if we put
(13:00):
let's put let's put Lenny Kravitz on it at the
end it's playing the guitar. And then people was like,
come on, Merc, you're going too far. You're going too far.
He was there was he was like, look, you could
end it with I hear the idea about ending it
with someone playing the guitar and it takes on this
thing and you're rhyme. He said, we can definitely try that,
but he was like Lenny Kravitz, He's like, no, no, no,
(13:21):
let's let's don't do that. Let's don't do that. I said,
all right, all right, cool, cool. But yeah, I mean,
I mean that record was just special. Man. It was
truly truly special. But like everything else, you know, like
of course, I mean verbal clap just like, it was
just had this amazing feel to it. And once I
(13:43):
had added to to the production and I added the
put on things aside, everyone was like, Yo, this is
gonna be crazy. So yeah, it was it's just moments
where you're just like, you just get these goosebumps. Man,
You're like, Yo, this is just going to be something
really really cool.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah man, well yeah yeah. Can you talk about what
inspired you to to first start your journey in music
and how it all really came together first.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I mean, it was just something that grab you in
the neighborhood. You know, we all were you know, you
love music. You know you you can have the amazing
records that your parents could have in the house and
it's listening and you love music, and you the era
of like, you know, being on your little your roller
(14:37):
skates and listen to all the great disco or R
and B, but then listening to a radio and all
the cool, amazing records that now they consider yacht rock
or whatever, like, you know, whether it's Boston and Chicago
or Steely Dan and Doybody, all that we were disaffected
by in such a positive way. So when hip hop,
(15:00):
this thing that came about called hip hop where you're
just rhyming over your favorite rock record, your favorite jazz record,
or just some record you don't even know where it
comes from. But it just happened to have this breakdown
that older statesman who is maybe only like eight years
older than us. They've now made this a standard, like
(15:21):
this Sirone record. I didn't know who Sarone was until
our rocking in the pocket and then so I mean like, yeah,
it just took that made me feel like this is
what I want to do, like I want to do
this now. Mind you, I'm super young, I'm in school,
but it really just held your heart. It has helped
(15:43):
your soul. So when it was about really feeling like,
you know what we can, like, you know, we got
these crews. You listen to these crews on these different tapes.
You know, you listen, you hear Bizmarcky on the tape
rhyming and biz Mark is always showing up to our school.
And here it is. You can hear of these tapes
of Dougie freshen them in the basement. You know, let's
(16:03):
you know, let's get equipment and let's let us start
doing the same thing. It was just as simple as that,
and people just start getting better at it. And you know,
you have people saying like, yo, you're pretty good at this.
And you know, I always loved to write. If I
wasn't doing this, I could have been a writer. You know,
I was into comic books. I was always into like
(16:23):
stuff like that. So yeah, I mean rhyming. It was
just it just called out to me. Hip hop honestly
called out to me. Yeah, Me, Dave and Mace Man
just practicing in the house and just getting better. And
and I mean honestly once Prince Paul once, you know,
(16:44):
because he was just such an amazing DJ in the
neighborhood and you know, to see him get down with
Stetso Sonic and then they made this record that just
energized the entire the entire neighborhood. It was like Paul
made it, and he was like, may the I being
from Long Island can make it. And then you start
seeing you know, wow, these guys from Base Shore EPMD
(17:06):
made it, or these guys who we actually met before
called JVC Force, they got to wreck it out. And
you know, all these artists from your your your Same
Island Rock, cam Biz, Marcky, they just energized you and
confirmed that you can do this. And so we just
took our chances. And that's how we just were blessed
(17:26):
enough to finally put together that demo and and have
a bunch of labels love it, and we went with
Tommy Boy.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Were there early mentors that really kind of helped drive
that work and that passion and fuel that that you know,
enthusiasm or was it really just observing what was going
on and being, you know, just so observant of it
that that was enough for.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
You observant honestly, just you know, watching whatever video you watch,
listening to whatever radio personality. We were young, but we
would go we would leave Long Island and go into
the city to go to whatever the club was at
that point, which a big one was Latin Quarters, and
you know, we had a fake ID and we made
it in somehow and you know you see red alert
(18:22):
DJing and you know then back then there weren't no
VIP sections, so you I could be on the floor
looking at the stage kros One bdps go out to
get on booget on productions. But Caine, Big Daddy Kane
is standing right there, and Rox and Chante's like you,
(18:43):
they were standing and standing right there in your vicinity
and it's like all that energy you took in how
they interact you looking at them, how they interact with
their friends. And you go back to Long Island, you're like,
you just energize and you're writing and you're trying. You're
just trying to get better at what you're doing. So
it's really observing, I would say one Mentor definitely was
(19:04):
as well. He lived on my block. Our music teacher,
mister Collins, Ever Collins and every Collins. He was a
tour drummer for Eisley Brothers. He was the music teacher
at our school. He was he was in the group Surface,
who made songs like you know, you know, you know,
(19:25):
make me happy, and so he was a writer in Surface.
He was in that group. So it was he was
like a you know, a very humbling superstar in our neighborhood.
But he was much older, of course, and he so
like he was just always had great words for us,
great understanding, and so just to have like all the
(19:46):
things you were viewing on your own you could just
talk about from this amazing musician who was a part
of the industry. It was just those are all the
all the other all the people or like whether it's
him or just the things you observe that you use
to take in to then use as input or output
into what he was trying to do.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Was there a moment that was a particular turning point
for Dala Soul that you could sort of pinpoint.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
When when we felt like it was going to happen,
or even after it.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Happened, when you felt like it was going to happen.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I mean, honestly, once once Paul came into the picture,
we knew it was gonna happen, like Paul working along
with Mace on something like Mace was working on something,
because it just it was like it was like another
DJ in the group. Actually he went on to want
(20:44):
to do his own thing. He was just like, yo,
I don't know if it's like I don't know if
this could really happen here with y'all guys, and maybe
it looks like I can DJ for this person at
who's over here the Jews crew And you know it
was this young lady named Mom Dimple's d was part
of Cold Chilling. He was DJing for her or I
(21:04):
think one time like maybe one of Light's DJ Light
DJ had got sick and he did something with her.
So he just felt like you know what, I could
just do something over here, doesn't really seem like something's
happening here. Mace, he was now being pulled into doing
something with this guy around the surrounding neighborhood name Gangster B,
(21:27):
and Gangster B was going to now do something on
this label that mister Collins, who lived on my block
he was trying to put together. So Mace took it
upon himself to kind of say things differently. He was like, look,
I can do this, but this could be the way
to get us in to the door, you know, get
us in. And I felt like, wow, that's that's amazing
that even though Mace could have this opportunity, he's staying
(21:50):
loyal to me and Dave about what we could be doing.
And so mister Collins brought Prince Paul in to try
to remix this record that Mace and this other EMC
gangs to be put together. And that's when Mace and
Paul really started talking about Mace start telling him like, yo,
I got these guys Merce and David Paul knew who
(22:12):
we were from the neighborhood, but he was like where
he was like Merce like little Mersey because he knew
my older brother, He's like he rhymes, and he tried
to tell me Dave Jolliport rhymes and he's like yo.
And so when Paul heard the demos of what Me,
Mace and Dave was doing, he just felt like, this
(22:33):
is what I want to be in a business. And
he was like, please tell your guys come to my house.
Let's have a meeting. And once Paul had that meeting
with us, he overdubbed our demos with stuff he added,
and he was like, I can promise you can have
a shot. That's what I will promise. And I just
(22:54):
knew it was going to happen from there, and from
there it did. Him and Daddy Oh. We went into
the studio Callipe Studios professionally fixed up our songs and
him and Daddy LL started shopping. Daddy O was shopping
an MC. He had a blind MC. I forgot his name,
and say that say Daddy O's artists was on said A.
(23:17):
Paul had us on side B and they were shop
it and people were just falling in love with us.
So I knew it was going to happen from that point.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
You know, you faced challenges over your career with record
labels and sample clearances and things of that nature. How
did those experiences shape your outlook and your resilience in
the midst of the industry.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, it definitely got you more focused on being on
point with your business. We handed in the music. I mean,
we've still told the story of thousands of times, hundreds
of thousands, but we handed in the music. We we
we you know, it was kind of like, you know,
certain songs that was like obvious, like that's that's pegt
frum stilly there, and but this may be weird horn
(24:07):
or blah blah blah, this is from this record, so
we hand it in the notes. And so when it
came back that these things weren't cleared, it just really
got us on top of our business. And mind you,
I mean, between d LA Soul and Biz Markey, we
actually created the business of sample lawyers. So I mean like, yeah,
(24:29):
it just got us more on point on making sure. Okay,
so let's write all this information down. We will make
sure that once we hand all these things into the label,
they have to give us confirmation show us that you
know this is being cleared, like, oh, you sampled that record,
so now the master recording that's owned by Universal or whoever.
(24:51):
They're showing that. It's a quote, so we will see
it all from beginning to end. There's a quote out.
This is what they want. Do y'all want to pay
that for this sample? We could say yes, so no
we say yeah, okay, and then you saw when it
was the sample was paid for. So it just really
helped us to be more more on point with the
business side of things. And yeah, it was it was
(25:12):
a little rough at some point, but even in the roughness,
there was still like just honestly amazing things that came
out of it, because you know, like even when the
Turtles suited us, it was like, but then when we
sit down with their lawyer, it was just like, you know,
he's a big fan, and it was just like moments
of this this sunshine through rain, it was like okay,
(25:33):
and you know, and so I mean, yeah, we got
through it, and we just grew up a lot quicker
in terms of understanding the business, which was important because
if you didn't take it upon yourself to take part
in the business side and only paid attention to creativity,
you could turn around and do something that wouldn't be
best for your interests.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
So did you you set up a separate sort of
business vertical on clearance the samples? Is that what you
you said.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well, we worked along with the label, but like it
was an outside clearance that then sent us. So basically, yeah,
an outside clearance company who would let Tommy Boy and
us see okay, so this is what's going on. Like
a Deborah McGann it's DMG, she would be like, okay,
so yeah, like y'all you've now sampled this artist for this,
(26:25):
this composition you put together. This is what the master
recording is saying that they want. This is what the
publishing side writers are saying, do y'all want to pay this?
So we were seeing the paperwork all at the same time,
which allowed us to then know like, okay, so this
is being cleared. This is we didn't just give it
to like certain people at Tommy Boy and just walk
(26:47):
away la la la la lat and next thing you know,
the album comes out. And then because that's what happened
with the first album, like they were, we weren't involved
in whatever and whatever process, whatever was cleared, we didn't know,
and obviously what didn't get cleared because maybe the exact
sat time boy felt like, you know, this is a
great record, but until that point, maybe this just be
(27:09):
a regional record. It may not go big, it may
not become a national thing. And three ft high and rising,
as we know to this day became national international. It flew,
It flew around the world, so it was a lot
of eyes and ears on it, and therefore would it
not just being a regional record. Different companies who could
(27:31):
own that. Sam will be like, yo, this is a
great record, but you know, DayLA's old and reach out
to us. Oldest reading wife could be like yo, like
they never reached out to us, like you know. So
that was the stuff that was happening.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
When you put in a bottle. What it's like to
win a Grammy, explain that to me. How does it feel?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I mean it feels. And I just say this for
me honestly, because like any plaque I have, any award,
I've gotten none of them to this day, I've ever
really put plaques on walls like I've never done that.
Really it's rare, but it's just somewhat of a confirmation
(28:16):
that it just makes you feel like, Wow, this work
we put in people are acknowledging it. I just come
from an era one hundred percent that we never made
records to win Grammys. We never made records to do this,
you know, like we made We made this piece of
art in the midst of just making in that present moment,
(28:38):
this piece of art, and we had the superpower to
make it. We had we we had other people with superpowers,
whether we're management or record execs to now you know,
positively exploit it to now make more people know it's there.
And all that work comes back in this this award
that shows that you did. You've now passed this threshold
(29:03):
of making it to this point and your peers recognize
you in the and the fans recognize you, and it's
a great feeling because it was never honestly made for them,
they just magically could feel as I have as a
music listener, where Steve wanted to make no music for
Kelvin Mercer, but Kelvin Mercer can relate to this Stevie
Wonner record that touched my heart. And that's what I'm
(29:25):
blessed to be as a musician. This group, this group
I'm a part of where fans and listeners can feel
that like you've touched my soul. And therefore I'm going
to spend my money to buy your music or listen
to your music, and we're rewarded for it.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
You may have read my mind to the last question,
which is what's your secret to staying so inspired after
decades in the business.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Constantly listening to new music? And I mean I've always
been like that. So, I mean, whether I was seventeen
years old, I've always was about I don't want to
just try to get use my cassette to record music
off of the FM radio station with the strongest signal.
(30:12):
I will go down to the college radio stations and
try to get the first bit of stuff. I remember,
like this college station that could play demos around the
different regions and I heard two live crew first, like
when they submitted demos to this college station. So and
I'll be like, yo, listen to this. Like I've always
(30:34):
been about studying and listening to music. So even to
this day as a fifty five year old man, like
I'm on every site you can think of, or even
when you're on your respective streaming services, and I allow
that rabbit hole, that suggestive thing to now, oh you
like this, listen to that, and I'll just find a
(30:54):
time to just listen to music, and it inspires even
down to the music, young music that could be like okay,
I wouldn't be talking about this, I ain't trying to
shoot and kill nobody. But the energy and how the
person could present the rhyme and how the music could
move it could draw something that makes me want to
pin something real quick, even if it's into opposition of
(31:17):
what the person is saying, like now, it shouldn't be
like that me right, I'm still getting inspired. So I
think that all plays a part of it. Reading, viewing
things around you, but taking the time to even you know,
shut out the world, shout out the news, shut out
reading and just look at my kids and look at
(31:38):
my wife and all that this plays apart. I sponge
that to put it back into my pen or whatever
I'm creating musically.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Brilliant pause. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time.
Congrats on the release of the twentieth anniversary I say,
celebration of the grind date. And it's an honor to
be able to take a walk with you.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you, thanks for listening to this episode of the
Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with
your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode.
Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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