66 - The Devil's Number

Come shoegaze with us on the latest My Favorite Murder! This week, Karen and Georgia go mostly to Europe to cover the exorcism of Anneliese Michel and the Vienna Strangler, Jack Unterweger.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
You said, what did you say, Cross your.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Cross your t's, and dot your everything. That's us tightening up,
the tightening the ship.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, you know, trying to be correct.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Trying to fucking do it right.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, just be professionals.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
That's the goal, that's the dream.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
So cross your t's and die your everything.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
It's not gonna happen on this episode. Nope. Welcome to
My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark, that's Karen kill Gareth.
This is the show where we talk about our favorite
true crime stories and other things.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
I love that our ads, Like, I'm having so much
more fun with our ads now that we're like saying
what they're saying, you know, like our tone of voice
in them being very normal.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, we're practicing being normal. We're practicing having professional speaking voices.
I think it's working. I like it. It's good practice.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Hi, because you've just been asked to be the voice
of McDonald's.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, that's me chicken McNuggets.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Can I start off with business way up front? This
is important. The story that I told last week about
Ronnie Chasen's murder, her shooting death was taken entirely from
an article that a man named Gary Baum wrote for
The Hollywood Reporter, and I did not credit him until
the fifty minute mark, and somebody called me out about

(01:38):
it on Twitter, and of course at first I was
very offended and completely I texted Stephen. I was like,
this isn't possible.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Can I remember you mentioning it too? Yeah, it was
clear to me what you were saying.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
But I think the thing, the important thing and the
reason I'm pointing it out like this is because the
and when I went to listen back, it wasn't even
full credit the way I said. It was almost like
I was citing him for the following quote as opposed
to everything I'd been saying. So just to make that point,
my apologies to Gary Baum of the Hollywood Reporter. I

(02:10):
did not mean to take credit for your hard work.
I feel like the only reason that story is out
there is because of the articles he's written, based on
the research he's done on these files that Beverly Hills
Police is released, and it's it's all him. I was
just reading his quotes and his timeline chronology, all of it.
So I should have said that at the very beginning

(02:31):
where it belongs. And I apologize for not doing that.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
So well, sometimes at the very end, you know, we'll
be like, and I got a lot of help from
this article by this person, So maybe we should say
that in the beginning, even if it's not the whole.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thing, right, I mean, I you know, we could go
through and pull It's the thing is this we we're
never about like I went down and read these files
at the you know, police station or whatever, like, but
it doesn't mean people that are listening know that, or
give us the benefit of the doubt or understand. So
I think that's especially for me as a professional writer,

(03:06):
being accused of plagiarism is a horrible feeling and something
that I never want to keep the door open on.
So I will always cite from now on and just
be very careful. But I think it's also it's good
to get called on something, because that's the line that
get Once it gets sloppy, it just gets sloppier for
me anyway. It's like I'm always like, oh, I have

(03:28):
to do my book report at the last minute, and
then it's you to me that's like, oh, it's this
built an excuse to like be sloppy, and there's no
excuse for that.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
You can't do that the thing of like, well this
was already said perfectly, so I'm gonna do that, right,
but you could put your spin on it.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, in the past, we've always just gone, I'm totally
reading you. This article from like the I five Killer
was almost all ESPN dot com article or like most
of the timeline and most of that bulk of information.
So that how we do it. We're retelling you articles
that we've read. But you just have to say it.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, that's not what we're always doing. So I don't
want that's not this podcast. I'm sorry, That's what I'm
always doing. No, no, no, no, no, that's not what this
podcast is. So that was a dot your everything corner
or across your tea corner.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
That's exactly right. But are those two different things? No?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Oh yes, no, yes, or no.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
You know what I mean? I do? I do? Oh?

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Can I This is a good segue into my podcasting
favorites now corner. Okay, can I do this? So I'm
now listening to in my fucking quest to always be
listening to a like a season long narrative true crime
podcast that I'm obsessed with and then finish in a
week and I'm fucking devastated.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
I love that. That's the at the end, Like it's
like you're throwing yourself off a cliff on purpose for
a good story.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, I need them. You've craved those things.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
And then you grieve them when it's over.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, and I'm like, what are we doing with my
fucking life now? And then I find a new one,
thank fucking God. So please listen. Keep making them investigative journalists,
and Georgia will keep not throwing herself off a cliff
for them. It's called The Accused, and it's about this
chick name Elizabeth Andy's in Ohio and nineteen seventy eight

(05:19):
who got murdered and like some dude, they arrested him
and he went to trial twice and was acquitted, and like,
who fucking did it? And this chick who's like researching
it is awesome and ask the hard questions to the
cops and stuff it with like a really cute sweet voice.
So it's not.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I like it.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Oh and then, oh, the other thing I was going
to say is speaking of just reading articles, this is
my new sleeping podcast is called Mysteries Abound, and it's
just this dude with a most soothing British accent you've
ever heard. And he's just reading articles of mysterious things
that have happened. So it's like Mars and murder and

(05:58):
then like, you know people who people who have How
do I fucking turn this alarm off my watch? I
don't know, it's always done that.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Just once a day you have to think about it.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, in the middle of a podcast. Yeah, anyways, I've
been falling asleep to it. And so that sounds awesome.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's so soothing, and they're real mysteries, Like he's not
just making stuff up.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
No, he's reading them from like this is from uh,
this article written by so and so, and he'll just
read it. Yeah, and so you know, the whole podcast
is him reading articles. But in the beginning he's like,
I found this one. I found that one, and I'll
save some of them because I'm like, well, I want
to listen to this when I'm awake because it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Does it affect your dreams? Do you ever have that?

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah? But then I'm wordy to fall asleep in the
car when I'm like listening to the episode of like
that's about you know this person who disappeared if I
have unexplained disappearances.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
And then your eyes are just suddenly getting heavy. Yeah,
you hypnotize yourself with mystery.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
And then I put my sleep afmea mask on. How
did this get my car?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Hey? What the whole thing is just And then suddenly
you're in seventh grade and you have to take a test. No,
this is the worst. My thing was I always had
My dream was always I had to go back and
I'd be like thirty five and I'd have to go
back to high school and play a softball game. And
I'd be like, you, guys, this is a this isn't
fair because I'm old and b I can't I won't

(07:22):
be good, Like why are you making me do this?
Trying to reason with everybody, and they.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Just like, come on, when you have to do something
in your dream that you really don't want to do
that you could get out of in real life by saying, you,
you know, have.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
A headache, you know, fuck this, I have a high
the headache. Fuck this forward slash.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, It's just like I feel like, up until you
were eighteen, you just had such a such little control
over your life and we're still getting over it. And
like when I realized when I was like, had my
first job at fifteen, and I walked into the candy
out and I was like, I don't have to ask
anyone if I could buy any fucking I could gorge
myself on candy right now.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah. It was really freeing. Yeah, and I did because
it was your money, is my money to do whatever
you want? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I was there alone because you know, my parents
neglected me.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
For a second. I thought you met you worked at
that place, so you were like, you worked at the
place where you could get the thing you wanted.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
I worked at a place and had money to get
the thing I wanted.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
But then when I worked in a bakery, Yes, I
would fucking accidentally break a ton of cookies.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh man. I worked at the coffee shop once that
made the best. It was oatmeal chocolate chip cookies that
I just it was just the beginning of the worst
eating disorder because I would just be sitting there just like, well,
it's your sixth cookie of the day and you're not hungry,
and you actually feel sick and you're still eating it.
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Like are those like you know, those like Chantilly almond
cookies that are like What are those called Florentines?

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yes, the ones that are shaped like that they have
at Starbucks that are shaped like shells circular. No, no,
that's a Madeline. Shit.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
I mean, I'll leave it cookie, let's get to it.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
But a florentine is what like?

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Is it like crackly thin?

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Like?

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Does it have sugar on the top? No? Does it?
Does it have a face? Its own face? No?

Speaker 1 (09:17):
You're thinking of one of those clown ice cream.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh, that's right, that's right, a clown ice cream from
Baskin Robin. Yes, there it is, Stephen. Is that what
they're called?

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Quarantine?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Dude?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
This kind crisp, thin almondy one. It's like almond and
maybe like something like caramel, says the girl who fucking
worked in baking for seven years of her life. It
must be caramel, yeah, because they're chewy or is it
like a brown sugar?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Screaming? Now I'm making weird saliva noise. They have these
Trader Joe's and they're half dippin chocolate, yes, the bottom.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
So I can't buy.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Those because I'll fucking eat them all. Same here my
dad started buying those.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Oh I know, Steven Stephens showing me and I'm like, honey,
it started.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
To pass the pictures around. Look, honey, don't show me
a picture of the thing I've eaten one thousand.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Listen, don't show me anything. Can I introduce this this saying.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Don't show me anything?

Speaker 1 (10:10):
No, this is another thing I say all the time
that nobody knows what it means except for me, And
I think it's hilarious. Is there was this j Loo
documentary quote documentary when like on VH one, when she
was like making her clothing line for the first time
in like early two thousands, and someone shows her this
gene thing and she's like, I don't like it, and
they're like, well, this is it, We've already manufactured, and

(10:31):
she goes, don't show me nothing I can't change. Yeah,
show me nothing, Like why are you? And then why
are you showing this to me? And so sometimes like,
don't show me anything I can't change. Please, that's right,
don't show me nothing I can't change.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
That's I love her? Oh sorry, I loved you. What
a bitch?

Speaker 1 (10:48):
And you know, and you could see the girl who
was like fresh out of fucking FID fresh out of
like fashion design college, just having an innor meltdown.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yes, that's a serious mistake. And it's like, oh, but
we've already made fifty thousand, but.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
This is what you said you wanted. Yeah, and she's like,
but now that the cameras are rolling it to seem
like you're the boss.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, well, and also you got a double check and
maybe triple check.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Bet she did.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
I bet you she did. Think so I think she did.
I'd love the behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Uh, it's like the fake behind the scenes and the
real behind the scenes would be.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Just I mean, anyways, that's the show people actually want
to see. Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yes, the footage of the footage that.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Wasn't the footage that explains the behavior.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
That's what we'll have if we ever have it.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Doc. You just like no holds barred, every single every
single thing showed.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Karen your hair looks great, and then be going, why
does Karen's hair look better the night.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Fired? Fired? Hired? Then you hire somebody that doesn't do hair. No, here,
it's to prove a point. Yeah, and you get them
in there they do hair better than the person I have. Then,
so then I lure your person a welling god, melt down. Fuck,
this is good.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
I fucking shave my head just to be like, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Well, and that puts you in all the papers, you
get the most publicity.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's just all I want in life.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
God, this is Stephen. You're writing this down right, this
is the point. Oh, it's being recorded. Don't wait for recording.
Wait a second.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, do you want to do you want news? I
can do news corner. I wrote some stuff down. Some
of it's not that great news corner about a crime thing?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, do it? Okay?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
So uh uh, this was so hard for me not
to tell you at the airport when we were on
our way home from uh Austin. Ohs, I read it
and I was like, this is so. In Massachusetts, a
crime lab, this woman named Annie duke Can was arrested
for mishandling sixty thousand samples of It was a drug
crime lab. She like tested sixty thousand samples and she

(12:50):
mishandled them for thirty four thousand defendants. One hundred and
forty of those people were inmates because of her mishandling.
Oh so they have to let twenty three convicted people
convicted got their sentences over to me.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Now, are they convicted of drug crime? Yes? So that
doesn't bother me that much that.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
They're convicted of drum crimes or they're they're to let go,
and I agree, And then they're keeping the people who
also had violent you know, it wasn't just a drug crime.
It was like a violent felony added onto that. They're
retrying those people.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Fuck.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
So these twenty three thousand people, twenty thousand of them,
let's say, who were like, I had an ounce of
weed in my pocket, you know what I mean. Yeah,
They're like, oh, well, it wasn't weed, it was a regano.
But this chick Annie like fucked.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
It up purposely, really purposely. She was trying to put
people away.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
She was trying to be the top dog and look
how great I am at this job, and like have
the most convictions and like, but she was just and
all the people who worked with her were like, this
isn't right. And the people who were her boss were like, no,
this is great.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
So they're trying to get an oversight on at crime Labs.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now there's the new that's the TV movie I want
to see. But reminds me of the story that I
told you last week of the body that was found
in the car with the Uber sticker on it, and
then a bunch of people wrote to us and said,
was it because you know, Kuba Gooden Junior's father was
found dead in a car, but the guy in the

(14:17):
car that I read about was in his thirties, and
so it's not the same. A bunch of people were saying,
what if this, what if this is the thing?

Speaker 1 (14:23):
But Coba coatings Junior could his dad. That's what I
didn't know that happened.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, it happened the same day, and that's why a
bunch of people were writing to us. That's insane.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, I have one more thing about podcasts. I'm not saying, like, no.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
You're going back to podcast recommendation because and we both
need to listen to this.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
This week, Fresh Air has an interview with a woman
who was a doctor at Bellevue Hospital with mentally ill
inmates for ten years.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Dude, I saw somebody tweeted that to us, and I
saw there is an amazing America Undercover, which used to
be an HBO series, A Day in the Life at Bellevue.
Oh my God, that we watched this was in the
nineties and talked about four months afterwards. Because it's so disturbing.
It's unbelievable. But it's also just that that life to

(15:13):
be a doctor. I mean, that's what my mom did
for a living. So like to also watch it and
just be like, yeah, this is your day to day.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's so intense and you like, you know everything is wrong,
but if you leave, it's just gonna get wronger because
you're a good person trying to help, So like you
can't really take yourself out of it because you feel
like you need to try to do something to help.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Well, yeah, and most of those people have an incredible
obviously like thick skin, but like they're not gonna quit.
That's not that's not it. They just like get stronger
and tougher as the insanity grows around. I mean, it's
it's so intense. I would love to hear that interview too.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
It's just crazy the way mental illness was treated back
then in a way that is horrifying.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
To watch that documentary, it's yeah, yeah, well that just
made me think of something else. Oh, I want you
and I together? Can we please promise to watch Casting
John Benet together? Absolutely, it's this Sunday, Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Can I come over because there's a wrestling thing that
Vince's girl. Yes, watching here.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
We can do it from my house. Okay, so good
then casting Jambrenet is on the books Real time Feelings.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Definitely, do we live tweet or is that going too far?

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Sure we could live tweet it, let's do it. My favorite?
Are going too far? Or have we truly crossed the
line this time?

Speaker 1 (16:43):
My favorite murder on Twitter is what we are on Twitter?
It's what we are, It's who we it's who.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
We've it's who we've lived as for so long now, it's.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Our identity, it's our spirit.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Go ahead, Uh, I'm done. No, No, we want to
talk about those cards that we got.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Oh my god, present corner. Everything may have to be
a corner. I need to stop it.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
We're recording in the daytime today and it's got a
real I feel like we're really forced to analyze ourselves
on this episode. We're really there's a lot of shoegazing,
a lot of internal uh analysis.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
In the light of day. This podcast looks real different.
There's no Stephen doesn't have a beer, I don't have wine.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Everyone's pores are really big.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh and the reason we're not recording from yesterday in
the evening is because one of my biggest fears in
the fucking world happened, which is that a fucking big
rig jumped the center dividerck. Is that true came into
oncoming traffic, which is like a big fucking yeah, Like
I know when you're going like eighty in the fast

(17:53):
lane and the center divider is like a brick, and
you're like, any person could just jump, but over I
picture it happening.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, well it did happen.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Did happen out like down the street from both of us.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, so it basically between our houses it happened. And
then Stephen texts and is like, oh no, like all
these exits are closed. I can't get anywhere near your house.
And immediately I'm like, oh, well should we reschedule? Just immediately,
like okay, I got to reschedule, can't buy bike, cancel,
canceling the house today I loved to cancel. Okay, So anyway,

(18:29):
we uh, Georgia put this on Instagram. We got these
cards in the mail that are the most amazing greeting
cards and they are there's a hand drawn they're like
just basically illustration. You know, what do you call those
pen and ink or something. Pen and ink is that

(18:52):
redundant inc I feel like pen and ink is a term,
but I can be wrong. But anyway catches, Yeah, they're
like it's a drawn so it's like a picture of
John Wayne Gacy. And then it says who ordered the
birthday clown?

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Or the Semaine Stephen King the Ted Bundy one I love?
It's you know, it's it's a portrait of an actual
photo of them that you've seen before, and it says,
does anyone want to help me carry these birthday presents
to my cards?

Speaker 2 (19:18):
And in that one that Ted Bundy eyes are nuts.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Oh my god, they're great. And then the one of
Richard Ramirez holding his hand up in court, which usually
has a pentagram on it, but instead what does it.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Say is happy birthday, which is like, okay, it's it
might cross a line somewhere, but it's like horrifying serial
killers that you know are big in the society and
we all know and love and hate, so I don't
think it's like.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
No, it's just references. It's like you've seen his picture
a thousand times now it's a birthday card.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
And then okay, on top of that two things, he
wrote a note with it in the style to us
in the style of the Zodiac Killer, including saying at
the end like, hey, I hope you like these blah
blah blah. I shot a man sitting in a parked
car with a thirty eight like reading at the end,
and then it says John John twelve s fpds like

(20:08):
it's got all the characteristics of zodiac And then so
you can go to Etsy dot com slash shop and
the name of is Etsy is depressive ghoule gho you all.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
But it came to my house, your house house, which
is my home, just so I uh, I'm settling. I
brought this package to Stephen and Georgia when we were
recording ads last Friday, and I said, let's open this together.

(20:37):
But just so you know, this got sent to my house.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
And then you know, Karen is fiercely private, so.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
I'm just like my dog's fiercely private. And so it
was a little scary, but then they were so funny
that we weren't that scared anymore because we were just
laughing and kind of like going, can I have this one?
I want this one?

Speaker 1 (20:51):
No one that clever. There's even a Mother's Day one
from like ed Gean like, no one that clever can
be dangerous.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
They are. It's like, all right, And meanwhile we're looking
at pictures, all pictures of people who are that clever
and that dangerusy, but we're so good. So anyway, so
Georgia puts it we love them so much. Georgia puts
it on Instagram. Blah blah blah. Then two days later
I get a DM from my Twitter friend John Fryler,
and he writes, Hey, I'm glad you like those cards.
It seems like people on Instagram are mad at me

(21:19):
for sending them to your house, though, and then I
realize that this I know this person, and he asked me.
He was like, I think he tried to send them
to the po box and they got sent back. So
I just gave him my home Addressit my friend John Fryler,
Who is he? He's a guy I know on Twitter
and basically I've known him for It's just that where
he was like, I love your podcast, Can I send
you this thing?

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Did you have any idea how fucking talented this human?

Speaker 2 (21:43):
No? I had no idea how talented he was, and
I had absolutely no memory of the conversation whatsoever. Until
he basically was scared because murderinos were like, hey, motherfucker,
leave them alone.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Oh no, yes, and so he was basically coming back
with funny, I didn't. I didn't truly think someone's gonna
come attack you.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, I know, but I think it's that thing of
like they don't want to be represented that way of
like yeah we're not yeah, we don't want to be
creeps to you, So don't be a creep to them.
And he's like, hey, guess what, everybody I wasn't like.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
We tried to give him a boost to like sell
his cards, and they're like, fuck you. It turned on him.
I'm sorry, John. Everything about your package was amazing, amazing.
I was gonna give my mom what's the Mother's Day,
other Mother's Day one.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
It was ed Dean and then something else, and I
was like, I'm going to give this to my mom
just to horrify her for her Mother's Day. Ed Kemper
the co ed killer and said the thing it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Ed Kemper, he really did not like his mother. No,
So anyway, thanks John, Those are amazing and hilarious and
that whole story if he hadn't written to me forever,
I would have been just a little bit worried. In
the back of my mind you'd hear crunch leaves at night. Yeah.
But also what's funny is I was like, Oh, we
talked about that six months ago, and then I checked
it was like a month ago. Horrifying. Oh we're good, horrifying,

(23:03):
we're good. Also, this is just the anecdote I wanted
to tell you. The other day, April and I were
at our pre where we do our show hang out,
and I went to the bathroom and I was standing
there and there's a woman that was waiting and she's like, sorry,
there's somebody in there, and they're taking a really long time.

(23:24):
And we stood there for five full minutes. Are you
a knocker? I'm a knocker. I have a full arm
knocker and a rage knocker. So I was just like,
get the fuck out of there. Three minutes, Yeah, so
that's what you have. Finally a guy comes out of
the men's room and then the woman there, another girl
came and was waiting behind me, and we were both like,
just he's the men's room. They're singles for sure. So
she goes in there. The girl behind me steps up

(23:45):
to like, wait, so now she's second in line or whatever,
and she looks and goes, oh my god, I was
just listening to your podcast whatever. So we have a moment.
Her name was Mia, I believe from what I remember.
We have a moment, chit chat whatever. And then we're
just and I knock again the whole thing and.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Does anyone respond no?

Speaker 2 (24:01):
And I was like, I was like, nice, we need
to get a waitress over here. I go, I bet
someone's passed out on the toilet. Well, finally Mia steps
up and tries the doorknob and it's open. We were
standing there for I'm not kidding, like almost ten minutes
with an empty, unlocked bathroom door, just standing there.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Oh my god, and like, and you got angry out
of it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
I was mad twice. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
When the other girl came out of the men's room,
where you're like, listen, bitch, no.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
That was she was like coming gone. But when she
opened it, I just yelled dude in her face and
walked it like. It was the funniest moment. It was
really fun. It was a fun moment. Hi, hi to you.
I hope your name was me, because I'm pretty sure
it was. That's good man.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
People need to we were talking about at live shows,
and I'm fucking a big fan of this because it's
like seventy percent women that before the show starts and
there's like Vince goes out to like look around and
he's like, there's the crew easiest line in the women's restroom.
And I know that in on the weekends at the
Ferry Building in San Francisco, they'll close one of the
men's room two women only, and they're like, men, go

(25:10):
upstairs and use the bathroom because there's five of you.
And they turn the men's room into a one's room,
which I think is so fucking forward thinking and so
fucking awesome, and I appreciate it very much, and I
think we should. I think some of the places we
do shows do that already, but I think we should
all do that. They're just staring at me. Do you
not agree?

Speaker 2 (25:29):
No? I don't know. I'm just thinking of all that
the bathroom politics that people. I mean, it just immediately
put me in that place of like, oh, all the
people that are like and then the people that will
go into the room and all that shit where it's like, no,
that's not a real thing. Yeah, just pee, that's not Yeah,
that's a public place. You're fine, And yeah it should be.
It should be dictated by the numbers. Like have you

(25:51):
ever seen there's a really funny picture of the women's
restroom line at a Rush concert and it's like no
one there at all?

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
It's same diff question.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
And I'm not asking for myself necessarily, but if you're
in a public restaurant, it's pretty you know, sizable. At
the airport and you're peeing, is a public restroom an
okay place to fart?

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah? I think that's the only place okay, because sometimes
I'm like societally acceptable.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
I mean it's they can still hear it, just as
loudly as if you were at the sink, but they.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Can't see your face. That's all that matters, right, good,
it's all about shame. Yeah, just do it where you can't.
I mean, especially at the airport. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Everyone has gas at the airport.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Gotta do it. Airport is fit.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
That's how the planes fly. They're fueled on everyone's gas
from airport food, too much alcohol, nine dollars bottles of water.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, nerves, nerves, fear you're gonna get dragged off the
plane for.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
No reason, constipation from massive pharmaceuticals. Oh, just to get
the anxiety away from I.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Never thought about that. There's so many more pharmaceuticals at
the airport. Yeah, I just didn't think. I didn't either.
That's exactly right, dude, have you ever seen that? Then
we'll get it. Then we'll get onto business skippers. Have
you ever seen that? I can't. It's not night vision,

(27:11):
but it's like heat vision. Huh. Footage of a guy
that farts. Oh no, it's those so funny.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
You don't like it because they do it for people
walking on the street, not people who know.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right, that's exactly right. But they don't show the person.
It's just the torso down. Yeah, but they just show
so you can actually see what it looks like when
someone farts. This like the cloud. It's the funniest thing
I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
I hate it, and it reminds me of when people
would tell the kids that if you pee in the pool,
like there's a die and it'll make it show up
green and so it's not true, but you're terrified. It
just reminds me of that where it's like shame right
on top of you.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
That's right, Yeah, it'sha coming out of you. Human. Yes,
although peanuapool isn't human. Peina pool's enjoyable, it's I mean,
you got to expect some level of pean a pool. Well, yeah,
especially with children, but also because if you're in a
warm enough pool, it's kind of like that trick where
you put your hand someone's sleeping hand and a glass

(28:08):
to make them look the better. But you're in a pool,
it's like that same feeling.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
But it's so it's so hard to get yourself to
pee in a pool. Like to start, you're not supposed
to be free leaping. You're not supposed to be like,
this is against societal norms. You got like train not
to do this when you were too.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yes, that's true, do it. But if other people are
in the pool, that's gross.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
And then what if you had vitamins that day people.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Are swimming, They're like this pool water tastes weird.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
No, but I have that yellow I love that yellow
pee when you take vitamins. Yeah, and you're just like,
oh fuck.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
It looks like you were in Chernobyl And then you're like,
oh no, that's a vitamin B. Yeah, beets, and your
pea is red. Oh I've never had that happen.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
You're like, oh god, I'm bleeding from my pee. And
then it's over.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Oh wait, eight beats yesterday? Seriously, Oh I went to
seep plantation. Okay, we have really done. Listen.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
The podcast is over. Thank you guys for listening. It
is over, literally over.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Uh. Okay. I think I went first last time, didn't I? Yes,
you did, didn't I, Stephen? I can't believe I knew.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
I can't either that you knew because I didn't. This
would have taken me ten minutes to remember.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
It's probably because I was I had to go first
for some reason. See it as a negative? Oh you do?
I do?

Speaker 1 (29:33):
I wonder almost like I don't mind either way.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Like you have to break the ice or something.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
But I feel that if you go last, then you
have to be like you have to close it hard,
you know what I mean. So I don't like going
last because I don't, then I can let you close
it hard.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah shit, I forgot about that part. Okay, let's just
go back and forth every week. That's a good idea.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
When you figured that out after how many episodes? Is
this seventy sixty seven sixty seven sixty Stephen? You should
know that Stephen sixty six sixty seven, Good Old Lucky
sixty six sixty six is not lucky.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
This is the Devil's episode. God. Do you think we'll
ever get to six hundred? Yes, for sure, that'll be crazy,
right we start tripling up.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Oh that sounds I want to go take a nap
just hearing that. Anyways, are you ready for the exorcism
of Annalise mcow?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Fuck? Yes, I am, Yeah, you are all right.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Annalise mckow was born on September twenty first, nineteen fifty two,
in led Flig Nope, leab label flying, lebel fling, lebel thing.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
It's not lebel fling. I bet you went it l e.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Iv L libel libel fi n g libel thing. Anyways.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
She was born in Bavaria, West Germany.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Bavaria sounds a good yeah, West Germany, which is a
pretty yeah. Okay, it's a pretty forward thinking face. It's
not place. It's not the fucking sticks West Germany, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
No Bavaria. No. Anyways.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
She lived with her three sisters and her parents, and
they family were devout Roman Catholics. They attended Mass like
twice a week. And Anna, she was known she led
a pretty normal wife. You know, you see pictures of her,
there's a lot of pictures of her. She's pretty, she
looks very normal, you know. As a teenager, she's just
a normal girl. And her classmates described her as withdrawn

(31:32):
and very religious. Ye sorry, which part withdrawn or very
loose any or the combination of the two is like,
you think you're better than you think God likes you
more than me.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah he doesn't, but you saying them being a Roman
Catholic and going to church twice a week. I just
being a raised Catholic. There's a there's a another echelon
of Catholicism of people that go multiple times a week
that makes me feel like I'm being suffocated invisibly when
I hear about it. It's just that kind of like

(32:03):
it's such a ritualistic old almost like it's all it's
like it's like ancient, it's ancient, and it's kind of
like I don't know it just it worries me.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Tell us non Catholics, like fiercely non Catholics myself, what
is mass like? Because I've been in a church three
times in my life.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
It's long. It's like an hour long, and it is
a series of prayers and songs, and then in the
middle in Latin. No, no, no. In the fifties and
then in this time they might have done it in Latin.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
It's definitely done it in German, that's for sure, at
least not in English.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
But in the late fifties early sixties, I think they
passed a thing called Vatican two where they updated everything.
So like when my dad was growing up, my parents
were growing up, that was in Latin and you took
Latin in school and all that.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
So like Vatican, the sequel Vaiga too.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
This electric Boglis.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Came out this time were not Latin anymore.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's right. And they kind of basically updated it so
that it was all in English, and they cut some
stuff out and they just made it a little more
maybe livable accessible, passed a couple extra laws. I'm not
sure the details. I've been told it multiple times, so
I just don't remember anything.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Just tried to update it from the sixteen hundred.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
I think they allowed guitars for some certain kinds of
hippies if they wanted to do it that way. Nobody
that I knew did it that well.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Well, analyst did not have a guitar, and she did
not go to the to version two point zero.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
They did not have mass. No, they were at one point.
You do eat the body of Christ. That's kind of
the main point of mass.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
You snick a snack on the body of Christ.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
That's right. Like the spread afterwards is like, no, it's
all in the middle. You drink of his blood and
you eat of his body, and then you basically are
forget and for all your sins, because as immortal, you
sin constantly and you have to constantly ask for forgiveness.
So it's just a little background.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
So many questions. That's that's that wafer, right, mm hmm.
And the blood is wine.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, but in most masses, the normal people don't drink
the wine. The priest drinks it on your behalf.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
What a dick, You're like, I'm good, dude, I don't
need you to do it for me. Gives this Yeah, okay. Then,
at age sixteen, she suffers a severe epileptic fit and
is diagnosed with temporal low epilepsy and depression.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
That what you have, I don't think I have depression,
although sure get lows sometimes, but mine is petite. You
have petite mal No grand When I have them, they're grand.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Karen doesn't do anything half ass, but they also call
it seizure disorder. It's a different shirts.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
She's treated at a psychiatric hospital and is put on
anti convulsi meds. I'm sure the psychiatric hospital is not
chill antipsychotics and mood stabilizers as well as anti convulsion drugs.
When the convulsions continued and none of it alleviated the problem,
she was prescribed another drug, alept eloped nope, which is

(35:20):
similar to chlorprasm Why didn't to take this part out?
It's used in the treatment of various psychosis, including schizophrenia,
disturbed behavior, and delusions. And by nineteen seventy three she's
suffering from depression and starts hallucinating while praying. She complains
about hearing voices telling her that she was damned and

(35:41):
would rotten hell and her treatment in a psychiatric hospital
did not improve her health and her depression got worse
despite the meds. Long term treatment did not help, and
she grew increasingly frustrated with a medical intervention.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
She'd tear her clothes off, she'd eat.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
Coal, and she'd urinate on the floor then try to
look it up.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Humhmm.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, the okay le's played diagnose her right now, she's
got schizophrenia. Well she's she's developing schizophrenia or has it.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
But also I used to always be fascinated. There's a
there's an illness called pika, which is your the need
to eat inedible things, which it sounds like she has,
but that might be a symptom of a bigger I.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Think this schizophrenia itself, and pika is like you're low
on some necessary uh minerals. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
A lot of people eat dry wall.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
My friend would had the incredible urge. She never did it,
as far as I know, to eat laundry detergent.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Oh yeah, well that's like on my my crazy obsession.
There's a show on TLC where people couch stuffing. Yes,
the lady who ate the couch Yeah, so nuts.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
This same friend had bought like or stole from a
pharmacy epicac oh, and she was like, unbelieve me, I'm
gonna try it. And then she did it and she
was like that was the worst experience and I think
she's stopped being Billie mc after that because it was
the worst experience of her life.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Because syrup of epicac just makes you vomit.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Horrible, everything you everything you have in your stomach. It's
for children to eat poison. Yeah, so a lot of
parents will have it on hand just in case anyways, and.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
It gives you like food poisoning, barfing.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
It's it's wretching until your entire stomach contents are just gone. Anyways,
that was a sidebar.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Sidebar And also what no, just I just love how
we're just like maybe it's this and maybe it's that. Anyway.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, yeah, we're really we're really doing a service to everything.
So she finished high school and when she was twenty
she started studying at the University of Wursburg. So she
went to university even though she had these issues. And
I couldn't complete community college.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
For more than a year, like that's I could barely
hold down a job.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Good for her, Yeah, I mean I'd walk out of
jobs sometimes. Yeah, who's never come back. Her symptoms had
significantly worseen though. Oh she was studying to become a teacher,
but her problems got worse. She heard voices telling her
I already said that she saw devil faces. She became suicidal,
and her family believe that she was suffering from demonic possession. Oh,

(38:17):
jump to demonic possession.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
A family friend arranged a pilgrimage to a sacred spring
in San Damiano, and her friend became convinced that she
was possessed because her inability to walk past a crucifix
and drink holy water.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Do you drink holy water?

Speaker 3 (38:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Why so, then what's the inability? But everyone's hands have
been in it. I wouldn't neither.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, I've never heard of drinking it as except for
in like horror movies. Okay, but what I don't know,
Maybe it's different in West Germany. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
She became aggressive, and she took to self harming, and
she would okay, and she ate insects. She growled at
religious icons and would sit under her kitchen table barking
for two days. So the family sought help from the church.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Many the thing that's causing the problem is where they
go for help. Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like every
single solution, aside from like the psychiatric place, every single
solution is religious base.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well, It's like when you hear of those parents who
like these days, who refuse to go to the doctor
to get help and then they get arrested and their
kid dies because it really just needed penicillin or whatever
the fuck or yeah, and the kid dies and they
get they get convicted and of child neglect.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
So yeah, Anyways, many of the priests they saw said
Annalise needed a doctor. Even the priests were like, hey, yeah,
but one eventually said that she needed an exorcism, and
then she was granted one. You have to get granted
a next to be exercised under the condition that would
be done in total secrecy. And her parents were like

(39:55):
that sounds on the level, let's fucking do it right,
Like no, no, no, go to a doctor. Go to
a doctor. One's like sure, just don't tell anyone. Yeah, great,
that's what we've been waiting to hear.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Well, maybe because they were trying to be progressive, and
there's exorcisms are about as like retro as you could
be in the church. Definitely.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
So in seventy five, she and her parents stop seeking
medical advice altogether. So three days after her twenty seventh
birthday twenty second birthday, and over the next ten months,
father Arnold Rentz and Pastor ernst Alt performed sixty seven
exorcisms on her. WHOA for fucking yeah sick? Ten months

(40:42):
and sixty seven like series of exorcisms, and it said
that every but they say that every action that they
took during these times and rituals were all condoned by
analyst who's fucking mentally ill. She's like, yeah, bring it on,
this is what I need. Why are you letting she
shouldn't be she shouldn't have decision making, you know, capacity
these anymore? Well?

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Also, what if nothing else is working? What else are
you gonna do? I mean, if if you've gone to
hospitals and you've and nothing is changing it, then of
course you're like, yes, keep trying this other thing.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah. They would attempt to drive the demons from her
body while she would argue with them into demonic voices,
and guess what, they fucking taped them all, audio tape
them all and videotape them. WHOA would you rather watch
and listen to one of those or listen to nine
on one call?

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Uh? One of those? You sure?

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Have you been a Catholic? Yes, it's terrifying.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Is it.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, I mean it's it's terrifying because it's scary and
her voice is insane. But it's also horrifying because you
can tell it's just like there's someone acting in a
way that like they're mentally ill, and it's like it
was almost like it was like a ramping her up. Yeah,
it's really fucking horrifying.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Wait, so when you listen to it, you didn't believe
she was possessed. You believed that she was mentally ill
and well basically answering the call that they were.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
And having fits of like moments of mental illness. And
I don't believe in Like, it's not like I would
have believed that because I don't believe in God and
the devil and all this, Okay, But so all I
could see it was from a mental illness point of view,
because that's all I have to hold me together and

(42:26):
explain myself. Then me ways, she stopped eating all together.
She believed it would lessen the evils control over her,
and she got so weak that her parents had to
hold her up when she got too weak to do
it herself. So they would like hold her up, take
her to bed, carry her around, shit, and there's these
fucking photos.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Man.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
So she was this normal, pretty regular young woman and
the photos look like they're from.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
A horror movie.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Oh no, I mean her like she has these like
blisters on her mouth. She ends up being sixty pounds.
Oh no, she looks like and do you ever see
a photo of the like when they found someone's sister
in the back room who had scoliosis and they just
left her back there.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
And stars like starved her.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
And they found her in like the seventies back there
and took photos of her, and.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
She was alive, which is also terrifying. She looked like
that she'ok like an old woman. Oh no, it's really horrible,
but you can tell it's her. I've never heard of
that Scoliosa's story. It's really sad. It was making me
think of a part in pet Cemetery where the sister
sits up in bed.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
It might be that.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Well, I mean, you know what, do you think that's
what it is? That's what that scary thing where she
sits up early fast her. Okay, that but it looks
like that. Yes, So what I was talking about was fiction. No, no, no,
because then it also please it's like people haven't been
fucking abandoned and locked into back rooms or whatever. No,
but it just like the way you just described that,
I was like, oh wait, that's the best part of

(43:52):
that fucking movie. Best worst part of that movie. It is.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
I forgot all about that part because I thought it
was real. But that's what she looked like, Okay, essentially.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Horrifying, unkempt, way too thin.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Like clearly to go from. And you look at her
and there's no way she's twenty two in your mind
to go to that level.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
Is just like the fact that they.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Could keep doing that to her despite this is unconscionable.
So she died in her sleep on July first, nineteen
seventy six. She weighed sixty six pounds. Her knees were
broken due to prolonged and repetitive geniflections.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, that was kneeling down as.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Part of the exorcisms, and she was immobile and had pneumonia.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
She broke her knees from kneeling over and over broke
her knees. That's fucking insane.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
The knees are hard to break.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Oh, I know, man.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
The autopsy reports too that her death resulted from malnutrition
and dehydration due to almost a year of semi starvation
during the exorcisms. The death was in investigated and the
state prosecutor found that Anna's death was preventable. Even as
late as one week prior to her death, they could
have saved her. Her parents and the two priests were
charged with negligent homicide and the trial began on March thirtieth,

(45:13):
nineteen seventy eight. The priests were defended by church paid
lawyers and the parents were defended by a dude who
claimed that the exorcism was legal, and then the German
constitution protected citizens in the unrestricted exercise of their religious beliefs.
So it's like, if you believe it, just do it. Yeah,
you know, it's like Nike, just do it. They played.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
It seems like you made yourself sad on that one.
I did because well, persa, I was like, that's not
a good exorcism. Just do it, you know what I mean.
It's like, that's not that's not a good attitude about exorcism. Now.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
They played the court the audiotapes oh from the exorcisms,
which they maintained proved that she was possessed due to
the appearance of demonic voices on the tapes. The priest
tested by the Anna was possessed by several demons claiming
to be Lucifer Cain, Judas Scariot.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Judas is Scariot. He's the one that turned on Jesus.
Thank you, you're welcome. It's in there for a reason.
And now I know why.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
That's amazing. Look at you. Who's Hitler?

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Now?

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Which one of the saints is Hitler?

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Hitler came out of her.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, they said, also Hitler and Nero, Jesus is Jesus.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
It's all star villain. No Jesus.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Jesus wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Clearly, no Jesus is against them. He was nowhere to
be found in this situation.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
No, he didn't come to visit Hitler. Fuck, I guess
who's coming to dinner.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Not Jesus. He took a pass on this dinner party.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
He latered right out of there.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Nero, my gosh, Nero. Nero's that the Roman what do
you call it, Caesar or Augusta whatever, the guy that
oh my god, he's the guy that that fiddled well,
Rome burned. He was the last emperor of Rome.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Okay, history and math and science, not my thing and anything.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Really.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
They also noted that the exorcisms apparently finally worked. They
said it worked immediately prior to her death, so oh,
well now it works, so unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
They also noted that the uh they okay, they were
found guilty of a manslaughter, sentenced to six months imprisonment
which was later suspended and three years of probation. And
there's a photo of her mom at the funeral, open
casket like prone next to her daughter's corpse that she
effectively killed. Her story is dramatized in the films The

(47:45):
Exorcism Emily Rose Requiem, which I watched and analyse the
exorcist tapes, so like, this is where they all came from,
is pretty much the chicks fucking experiences. Despite the fact
that in nineteen eighty four the bishops declared Annalise mentally ill.
So even the bishops were like, remember what we said,
they said, she's not possessed, but still her grave became

(48:06):
a pilgrimage center for fringe believers of course, okay. And
then this made me think of this book I recently
read called Brain on Fire by Susan Callahan.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Have you heard of it?

Speaker 1 (48:17):
No, it's really good. And then I looked it up
to find the details of it, because in it she
talks about how this disease that she had they now
think is linked to a lot of what they thought
was the exorcism signs. And so I look this up.
It's not my I'm not fucking This has already been

(48:38):
talked about a lot on the Internet as far as
Brain on Fire is concerned. So it's not me being like,
oh my god, I just put it together like everyone
put it together.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
So Susannah and the book Brain on Fire is really
fucking good. She's twenty four, she's a writer at the
New York Post, and she starts going fucking crazy. She
comes fixated on the idea that her home was infested
with bedbugs. She like calls a bedbug guy in to
like clean out her, like what the fuck, and he's like,
there's no bed bugs in here. She's paranoid, irrational, laughing
and crying all the time. Her family thought she's having

(49:07):
a nervous breakdown, and they like kind of blow her
off and give her antipsychotics and then anti seizure meds
when she starts having seizures, so along the same lines,
and she is eventually finally diagnosed with anti m NMDA
receptor encephalitis, which is caused when the body's immune system
goes haywire and attacks of protein in the brain that

(49:27):
helps neurons communicate.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Fuck yeah, which sounds a lot like Alzheimer's.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yes, they're linking it to that too. And it was
like there was one doctor who was able to finally
figure it out. And the way he figured it out
is when he had her draw a clock and she
drew the circle and wrote all of the numbers tightly
on the right hand side, so the brain wasn't computing,
it wasn't even seeing the other side, and she thought

(49:52):
it was normal, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yes, so because I feel like I've seen that picture, right, Yeah,
so she was.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
So it's the same receptor that's blocked by PCP or ketamine,
and both drugs can make a normal person act like
someone with schizophrenia, so, which I didn't know. That sounds terrifying.
Why would you take those drugs?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
The seventies, I think most people accidentally smoked PCP. Yeah,
there was a lot of like because that's angel dust, right, Yeah, Yeah,
we're accidentally on purpose because the drug wars were fucking
racist and horrible. That's true. Uh look it up?

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Look up, Nero, Well dare you look look it up? No,
I didn't mean it like that. I'm like you better. Yeah,
I'm right. I didn't mean like I don't know you
look it up. I don't care. No, I meant like,
you know what I mean. I just want to make clear. Yes,
the diseass the disease, Stephen, make me sound like I
can read, we can do this. The disease typically strikes

(50:52):
young women, and symptoms worsen and include agitation, paranoia, delusions,
hallucinations and seizures, and psychosis. Fuck yeah ye it's now.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Literally thinking back in the nineties of like did I
have paranoia? Did I have was I hallucinating?

Speaker 1 (51:06):
But I did you think? Do you remember? Because like
schizophrenia hits younger women. It seems like really that's really
the main demographic. And so did you ever be like, shit, man,
if I'm going to hit it, this is going to
be like a twenty four. I was like, get out
of this.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yes, without schizophrenia, Well, yes, because the so the brain
grows like a certain way every seven years, a certain
amount every seven years. That's like this, So that's why
they say, it's when you're you know, twenty one whatever,
it goes in sevens of when they think when they
most commonly diagnose it. So they say, and when I

(51:41):
was at the end, it was I was twenty eight
and it was my fourth one or whatever a few Yeah,
your fourth seizure. I was like the cycle or whatever
where I was when I read that thing about the
brain growing. And that's why sometimes people have seizures, and
sometimes they have them and never have them again.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
I had one at fourteen, No, twelve, Yeah, at twelve,
your brain is little. My brother had one too, Yeah,
and pretty cocker's that because it's just complicated. Well, yeah,
then it makes sense why a young woman comes in
with fucking symptoms that look like schizophrenia, who's like twenty
three or four, And of course it's just an obvious diagnosis.

(52:17):
But then when the brain the drugs don't work, you know,
that's a sign it's not.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yeah, but you know they didn't.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Doctors a lot didn't want to look into that more
and would just send you to someone else.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
And well, it's like when they're supposed to be the
final word, and if they don't know what today. Then
what do you do?

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Well, she spent she said, she spent one hundred thousand no, no, no,
she said a million dollars on different drugs to try
to tackle this Jesus, and none of it worked. And
then finally this guy's like, draw a clock and she's
like what and draws it And it didn't cost anything
to draw the clock in for him to be like,
you have this?

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Okay, So anyways, that's not this isn't about her. Uh So,
it's now speculated that anti NMDA receptoransvalitis could be behind
historical descriptions of what was believed to be demonic possession,
including in The Exorcist when she walks on her walk.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
How do you explain that? Is she backwards crab walks?

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Yes, that's like your bones get stiff, your body like
turns into these crazy folds and stuff like that, and
that's one of the fucking things that happened.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Really, Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, So that exact symptom of demonic possession is actually
a symptom of this.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
So appropriate diagnosis and treatment, more than eighty percent of
patients have a good outcome. And then I wrote the
worst line I've ever written to end a story because
I didn't about how else to do it. Susan Callahan
got better, but unfortunately Anna Lise Michelle didn't have the chance.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I know.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Everyone listened. I think they're making a movie out of it.
Brain on Fire really fucking interesting.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
I would love to.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
See that or rehab It you can have it.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
I do want to read that. I saw I think
Reque is that the one that's in German? Yes, that
movie is so upsetting. I saw the first I would
say two thirds of it, and then when she started
having seizures, when it started getting into that thing, I
was like, oh, I don't want to watch a girl
have seizure.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
It looks so horrifying when she has a seizure.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's just well, it is really. I
mean you picture back when demonic Possession was conceived. Yeah,
and when it was people who like, if you had
a brain disorder in you know, medieval times or the
Dark Ages, you were just fucked because there was no treatment.
There was nothing to be done.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Well, not even the Dark Ages in the fucking nineties
at Bellevue Hospital, like a seizure you were you know,
if they couldn't control it.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Right, Well, they can control it. They just don't know
why you're having it unless they go in and they
go have brain surgery and they look to find if
there's scars on your brain. But like, if there's no,
if you don't have like, oh, I've gotten a car
accent and this is what's happening. If you don't have
a story that they can put a storyline to, then
they're just like, we don't know. In the beginning of

(55:01):
my seizure disorder journey, in the beginning, they were just like, oh,
this is just alcohol withdrawal. This is what happens to alcoholics. I,
of course, then, with absolutely no shame whatsoever, was like,
but I've never stopped drinking, so how could I have withdrawal?
No withdrawal situation happening? But you know, and then it
turned out that that wasn't what it was, because I

(55:22):
still have seizures to this day.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
And you were probably even not aware the seizures were
going on because you were drinking so much that you
just didn't even notice them.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
I knew things were happening, and I had injuries, and
I'd weird, you know, I'd weird eye because of the
aura of my seizure is my eyes flick around. And
so when that first started, I would be driving and
it felt to me like I was looking at the
other cars coming like I have a very specific memory
of driving down Fountain and just check. I felt like
I was checking the other cars. And so I was like, oh,
am I crazy now that I'm like OCD checking cars.

(55:53):
But it turned out it was my eyes just going
eh uh, because that's the aura.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
And then you seem paranoid a little because you can't
stop looking at the car.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
I mean I didn't think that, okay, but you could
put that together if you were a doctor trying to
figure out what the hell was going on. All of
that stuff fits totally. But the idea that they just
keep going back to the Church or to Catholicism to
fix it is just like, oh, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, I know,
broken knee caps is not cool.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Oh that's such a specific thing of like, Okay, this
is the thing you can point to of excessive what
she went through, that specific thing of her knees being
broken from fucking.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yes, someone should have said stop wig fucking earlier than
when she weighed sixty six pounds. It's insanity. It doesn't
make sense.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
And the whole time she was on board with it,
so they were probably.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Like, because they're priests. These people haven't like she was
because she was. No, I'm saying, because priests are doing
it to her. She's a devout Catholic. Those they know,
they drink the blood of Christ, they know better than
doctors their like final word. It makes me think too
of did you watch Taboo, the Tom Hardy series on FX.
Oh wait, we watched a couple episodes. There was just

(57:02):
one near the end. His sister who's married, and she's
just like a rebel. She's just like a fuck you
rebel for lots of different reasons. Her husband finally decides
that she's possessed by the devil and has someone come
to exercise the demons inside her, and she basically just
get gets molested by this priest. And it's that thing too,

(57:23):
of women in society over the years, where it's like,
when you did have these people and it's not you know,
it's not the exact same thing every time, obviously, but
that it's such a good example of like women having
no you know, own rights or ownership over their own
fucking bodies. So then it was like, if you're sassing
back and saying fuck and all this stuff, then you're

(57:43):
possessed by the devil. And then two men come in
and get to just do it at what they want
to quote unquote get rid of the devil inside you,
and you are just tied down and you know you
have to take it.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Well, it's the same thing as far as in like
the fifties and sixties and seventies, where it's like my
wife is being rebellious and or depressed and it's like,
we'll give her a fucking h pill lobotomy. Oh shit, Yeah,
the lobotomy situation. Oh man, I like, she doesn't want
to be a fucking housewife anymore.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
She's going crazy. Okay, we're going back to We're going
back to the area that you were just in from mine.
What are the odds? So we were talking to somebody
yesterday who said, do you guys take requests? And we
were kind of like, but then he said do you

(58:37):
know about this guy? And the second he started talking,
I knew who he was talking about, and I got
that thing that I always get when people talk to
me about cases, where if I know I just want
to interrupt them immediately and be like it's this, this,
this and this, But well that's.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
What I did, and you were quiet, so you're probably
like writing it down.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
I wasn't. I was just mentally noting. But that's what
I wanted to do, was just be like and I
think I at some point I did say something. But
it is so hilariously frustrating when it's somebody's going like,
have you ever heard of this thing? And then they
tell you the whole story and you can't. You can't
immediately just be like yes or correct them. So I
knew if I had such strong feelings, I should tell

(59:16):
that story. So awesome. I love it. It's like such
a quick turnaround. I know I heard about it yesterday.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yeah, and look at me now.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
So this is the story of Jack Unterwigger, the Vienna Strangler,
and it's so crazy. This should be much more well
known and talked about. It's so crazy. Okay, So essentially,
just to give you a little background on Vienna, Austria,
which I can't tell you how many times I got

(59:42):
confused while I was writing this, forgetting that Vienna is
the city within Austria and not Austria as a city itself.
So much to learn, so much, so many ways to grow.
I feel like we're learning so much to this episode.
I mean growing. It's kind of like me in school.
It's school time, it's school time of day. We're dotting

(01:00:05):
our everything's all right. So. In two thousand and five,
there was a study of one hundred and twenty world
cities and Vienna ranked a tied with Vancouver and San
Francisco as the world's most livable city, and then in
twenty eleven and twenty fifteen it was ranked second behind Melbourne, Australia,

(01:00:30):
and it is It is classified by the United Nations
Human Settlements Program as the most prosperous city in the world. Wow,
twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, let's move there. So it's fancy pansy.
They don't. They barely have that meant much crime, they
have very little, murder, very little. So. On New Year's

(01:00:52):
Eve nineteen ninety a woman's body is found by hikers
in the forest in western Austria. Her name was Heidi Hammern.
She was thirty one year old sex worker. She was nude,
face down, posed and had been strangled with her own
stockings that were tied in a complex slip knot, Oh
never wears.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
I'm never wearing stockings because that's all they're used for,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
In these stories? Absolutely? Yeah. So five lays days later,
in the city of Grouts, hikers find the body of
Brunhilda Masa in a forest. She's partially buried. She's been
posed in the same manner as Heidi was. She was
strangled with her own bra that was tied in a
complex slip knot. I don't wear bras.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
I'm just taking off all my clothes for this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
There's all these solutions, solutions, no bras, Okay. So the
police can't find any usable evidence on either of the bodies,
except that Heidi had a bunch of red fibers all
over her that didn't match anything that she was wearing,
so they took those fibers put in a bag for later.
But it was so uh on uncommon that anything like

(01:02:02):
this would happening, would be happening, that these murders hit
the papers and everybody in Austria is freaking out. So
they have a crime reporter named Jack Unterweger who takes
to the streets to talk to police and sex workers
about these Crimes for Austrian National Radio. Like the name

(01:02:24):
it is, I was trying to say it fast, so
you've noticed that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
But he's reviews nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
On the streets. He interviews sex workers about the fear
that they're feeling, and he goes to the police and
talks to the investigators about whether or not they have
any idea of who they're looking for, and the police
tell him they have no idea. What a great ruse. Meanwhile,
in Los Angeles, California, that's where we live, a thirty

(01:02:53):
five year old sex worker named Shannon Exley is found
underneath an eighteen wheeler in Boyle Heights. She's posed, she's naked,
she's been strangled with her own bra that's been tied
with a complex slipknot. Boyle Heights is closed to us.
Uh huh very close. Oh my god. Then so the
police when they find they see this, there's no clues,

(01:03:14):
there's nothing. So uh they look into any other unsolved
murders with the same mo and they find two others,
both Irene Rodriguez, who was found in Boyle Heights as well,
and a woman named Peggy Booth who is found in Malibu,
Caanan had both been strangled to death with their own
clothing left out in the open. They were all sex workers.

(01:03:35):
They had all three been assaulted with tree branches. So immediately, yeah, immediately,
the LA detectives know that they've got a serial killer.
That's three murders in fifteen days. So they're like, we
have a fucking cereal kill the emergency. But then nothing
else happens in the case goes cold. Now let's go
back to Viannah. There's two more sex workers' bodies that

(01:03:59):
have been found, and Era Glue and Sabine Moiitesi. They
were both also found in the forest, both strangled with
their own clothing that was tied in slip knots. So
these every time it happens, it hits the paper and
people freaking out. The pressure in the panic is building
because this is just something that does not happen there.

(01:04:21):
So finally, a retired detective named August Schenner from Salzburg
is reading about these murders and he contacts the Austrian police,
the Viennese police, i should say, and he tells them
that Jack Unterweger, the crime reporter and the famous, the
famous crime reporter, and he's a well known guy around

(01:04:44):
Austria that he reminds police that Unterweger is famous because
he was convicted of murder in nineteen seventy four. He
h August Schenner tells police, it's the same m o
as the nineteen seventy four murder of these women that
are being killed now, except for the seventy four murder.

(01:05:07):
He knew the woman personally, she was not a sex worker,
but is he had a prison But it's the same. Well,
I'm going to tell you it's the same momo, same
not same everything. And Schenner says, I know you don't
have any you're saying you don't have any suspects right now,
you should at least take a look at his movements
and see where he was all these different times in

(01:05:30):
these different locations where these women's bodies were found. Totally,
so the police start to look into Underwagger and and
that trial. So basically he as I said, he was
tried and convicted in nineteen seventy fourth for the murder
of this Let's see, her name was Margaret Schaeffer. He

(01:05:52):
was he went to his the girl he was dating
at the time. He went to her hometown. So she
could visit her family in Germany, and they see as
they drive into town, they see her school friend, Margaret Schaeffer,
walking along the street. So at that moment, jack Unterweger
decides that they're going to rob her and her parents.

(01:06:16):
So he ends up taking her out to the forest, murdering,
attacking her, raping her, murdering her, strangling her with her
own clothes, and he and his girlfriend spills the beans
on the whole murder and he ends up going to jail.
So while he's in jail, he goes into jail and

(01:06:36):
he can't read or write. He's had a horrible childhood
his mother. He alleges his mother was a prostitute or
a sex worker. Sorry, the word prostitute is used a
lot in this case, so but he says that she
was a prostitute. She gave him up to his alcoholic,
horrible grandfather when he was little, and she took off.

(01:06:59):
He never knew his father. They think his father was
an American soldier, and he has to live as a
child live with this alcoholic grandfather in a cabin in
the woods, a one room cabin where he is constantly
bringing girlfriends and sex workers back to the cabin to
have sex while he's in the room. That's his childhood

(01:07:23):
he when he gets older. So then finally the state
takes him out of that situation. He goes from foster
home to foster home. Then he goes to juvie for
a little while. He finally gets out, and between nineteen
sixty six and nineteen seventy nine, he's convicted sixteen times

(01:07:44):
of sexual assaults and he spends most of that period
of time, it was like nine years in jail. So
when he finally gets out of jail, that's when he
finds the girlfriend, starts traveling all over and that's when
he ends up killing Margaret Schaeffer. So he goes to
jail illiterate, but he while there teaches himself. He's he's

(01:08:10):
convicted and given a life sentence and in that sorry
in that trial, he's declared insane by a psychologist who
describes him as being sexually a sexually sadistic psychopath with
narcissistic and histrionic tendencies, prone to fits of rage and anger.
And they that psychologist said he's an incorrigible perpetrator. So

(01:08:32):
he goes to jail and when he's in jail. I've
said this now three times. He can't read or write.
So he teaches himself to read and write in jail,
and he starts writing plays, he starts writing poems, and
he starts writing children's stories. And at the same time,
there was this movement in Austria for prison reform, and

(01:08:52):
one of the the approach of their prison reform was
called resocialization. So it's the idea that if somebody is
in jail, they understand what they've done, that they've done wrong,
that they should have a chance to make good on that.
And and so that's what jail is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Prison is for, right, so don't get.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
To do that. So they're basically it's this kind of
it's very the intell you know, the intellectuals of the
country were kind of like, this is what needs to happen.
We need to give people a chance and and through
the arts and through self expression they can basically reform themselves.
And so but Jack, they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
But that doesn't matter because they still committed this crime.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
Oh stress, sorry, go on, no, no, no, you're you're
exactly right off. But it's that old I think it's
back before they understood serial killers. They understood these these
personalities and what that actually means, how somebody can be
actually totally unrepentant and have no conscience, so they don't
of course they're not sitting They're going, I shouldn't have

(01:10:01):
done that. I promise I'm not going to do it again,
Like that's not happened.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
I think that mindset that that people had back then,
where it's like anyone could commit these crimes not thinking that. No,
it's this you know, those people who were saying that
don't understand the urge to kill or to sexually assault
someone because you know, they don't have that, So they're
they're grouping all criminals together, yeah, or they're groping all
humans together and mental you know, capacities and fucking see psychopaths.

(01:10:30):
So there's, uh, there's a lot of people who theorize
that when he knew that this was the reform, because
the reform started before he went to jail, before any
of that happen, so he knew that was something they
were looking towards. So he gets into jail and is
basically like, this is the this is the prisoner I'm
going to be. And so instead of being here for
a life sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
I'm going to get myself out by playing straight into
the need for this program and people's need for this
program to be real and to work. Yeah. So he
while he's in jail, he writes an autobiography called Purgatory.
I can't say the German version of that word because
it's also crazy. And that autobiography becomes a hit, and

(01:11:13):
a director even makes a movie of it. It's basically
his life story, and there's this ground swell of support
for him and his art and his expression and the
proof that he can be resocialized and that this can work.
In nineteen eighty five, they start up the certain group
of people start up a demand for his early release.
So it's all actually, one could say, if that was

(01:11:37):
the plan, it's going perfectly for him and he basically
in May of nineteen ninety he gets released from prison
after serving fifteen years of a life sentence. Uh huh.
So immediately he gets released from prison and he becomes
a fixture on television talk shows. He poses as the

(01:11:58):
model of prison rehabilitation, and he gets invited to high
society cocktail parties. His autobiography is taught in schools. His
stories for children are performed on the radio.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
What in the fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
The the woman who got killed by him is like, hey,
I would be still alive if this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Yes, exactly, So he he actually was there. There's clips
of him on I think it was called Cafe two
now I can't remember what the name of the show is,
but it's literally a circle of men in like turtlenecks
and it's like, you know, sit jacket and turtleneck, the
very clearly like the intelligencia, and they're just talking about

(01:12:40):
prison reform. And he's there in an all white silk suit.
He looks like Steve Martin doing a character in a movie.
And he's there to give his first hand account of
the reality of prison reform.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
To tell to school them, yeah, to.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Tell them how it really is. And this made this
is what everybody wanted, and he was it and it
was all like, this is how society should truly be.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Diabolical man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
He also he made a lot of money because of
all of these successes. He wore designer clothes, the white
silk suit, which I enjoyed. He's wearing it in a
lot of clips. He also drove a Ford Mustang with
the license plate Jack one, which I don't know why
I think that's so hilarious.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
One is the number one. I think it's like he
fucking won.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Well, you're exactly right, because he did. He gets he
gets an eighteen year old girlfriend. So in September of
the same year, he's released in May. In September of
that year, some people walking along the Vitava River near
Prague find the body of Blanca Bakhova. She's not a
sex worker, she was just nearby meeting friends for a drink.

(01:13:52):
And this is four months after he has been released
from prison and is living this life. So on the
advice of the man from Salzburg, sorry turn the page,
on the advice of our August Schenner, right, the police
get a search warrant and an arrest warrant. They start

(01:14:14):
looking at Jack Hunger. Now I've lost every Jack Hunger
watchers movements, and they see that he coincidentally has been
in all of the towns where these women have been
murdered when they disappear. So they're starting to track it
and they're like, oh, this guy is exactly right, Like

(01:14:34):
this is serious. So they get a warrant to search
his home and an arrest warrant, but when they get
to his house, he's not there, so they start looking
through his house. They find evidence that he had gone
to Prague at the same time as Bokhova's death to
do research on an article about prostitution, and he was
placed at a cafe five hundred meters away from where

(01:14:56):
she was last seen the night she disappeared. They also
find a red scarf and they bag that shit up.
So one detective that's looking around his house sees that
he has keepsakes from a recent trip to La and
so they're like, what was he doing in La? So
they call the LAPD and they ask if they have
any unsolved strangling sex worker homicides and LAPD's like, we

(01:15:20):
got fucking three. Fuck so but here's this sorry ninety ish?
What's that? What?

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Ear is this ninety one?

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
Okay? So it turns out that Jack had been hired
by an Austrian magazine to write an article on prostitution
in America, so he went to LA and he called
up the LAPD. They found in his apartment, they found
a visitors pass for the LAPD headquarters, and they found
he had gone on a ride along with some officers downtown,

(01:15:49):
and on that ride along he asked them where the
sex workers, where the prostitutes work and are and they
drove him by the spot where they all stood around,
so they basically pointed out his targets. Oh my god.
And that article was published in an Austrian magazine in
December of nineteen ninety one, so he actually really was

(01:16:10):
a calumnist, but he was reporting on the murders he
was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
Can we please get an original copy of.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
That article of that you want it in German? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
No, I guess not.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Yes, I thought that's what he meant, like, can we
just see it? Yeah, you know what, Yes, I'm gonna go. Okay, yeah,
we'll go all the way there. I'm going there. He
also stayed at the Cecil Hotel. That's where he was
staying the whole time. I just gear the shit out
of me because I, oh my god, the Cecil. Yeah,
a good friend, the Cecil, The Cecil Hotel where everything

(01:16:43):
bad happens, where islam Elisa Lamb was found dead in
the water tank. But also Richard Ramirez stayed there while
he was doing a little killing in Los Angeles. And
it's like they have a discount rate and like Murder
magazine or some shit. I mean, it's so hilariously able. Yeah,
but it is right down there in the worst of, yes,

(01:17:04):
the worst things that are happening in Los Angeles. The
Cecotel Hotel is like centrally located. I love trying to
rebrand themselves by calling themselves like Stay on main.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Stay on Maine. Yeah, no, honey.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
But the funniest thing is that sign is still up
that says Hotel Cecil. It reads Hotel Cecil down like that,
and the like vintage painting on the side that says
Cecil Hotel or whatever. They can't. I think they can't
change those. I mean, that's my guess because there. We
just drove by there the other night and we looked
at it and that's all still up.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
Yes or no. We do a special episode from a
room in the Cecil Hotel Lisa Lamb Stayton or Richard
emer Staden or the sky stanate in Yes, Stephen, can
you write that down.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Stephen ideas and then we write in the dark German
articles listen for Austrian magazines, send them over. We just
do Google Translate and send them over.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Yeah, but I want it in my hand, like paper. Okay,
good right, we know what you want to let's move on.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Well, okay, so he so they put all of it together,
and they put all of it. It's circumstantial evidence, but
they're putting all of it together. And there's that there's
that guy that you see in every special that was
in the I watched. Oh shit, I've done it again.
I didn't quote this at the top, but I got
all of this from the Biography Channel. But this is different.

(01:18:28):
It's all. It's all They've got information from a place
and then you put it in several places your story
me too. I mean, you're gonna fucking make it up.
You know, this is all from the internet. The Biography Channel.
Uh is the first special I watched on this and
it's that thing. It reminded me when it when the
title comes up, it starts Biography Channel, so you're just

(01:18:49):
watching and then it's Jack Unterweger, and I remembered normally
watching like when the Biography Channel specials would come up.
I'd be like sitting there and then be like riba macintel,
Ye like that, I don't want to watch this. But
then it's like if one of those came up in
real time naturally, it was the most exciting thing in
the world. Yes, when it was before specialized true crime

(01:19:12):
television was really as popular as it is now and
before DVR, so you kind of didn't know what was
going to be on, Yes, just kind of like catch it,
catch you had to be there listen. So he he
goes on to who goes on the Lamb with his
eighteen year old girlfriend. They end up in Miami. No,
I'm kidding Miami, Uh to do a show there now?

(01:19:34):
And he also he starts calling into the radio station
that he used to work for, explaining to them that
he's innocent. He's being framed by the cops. You know,
he's just the most you know, he looks bad because
of that old murder, but blah blah blah. He's like
calling in and trying to make a case for himself.
And there actually are people that are on his side

(01:19:55):
because there's because they've bought into the celebrity of him
so hard that like they can't turn around now, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
They can't admit that loopsie. Yeah, And because then you're
also kind of responsible for those women getting murdered in
a like weird roundabout way.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Well, yeah, there's definitely guilt. Yeah, there's definitely guilt. You are,
but you would think you are, you would, yeah, you'd
have you'd feel fucking terrible for that. Yes. So this
guy from the FBI helps Vienna develop what they call
a crime signature, and his crime signature is murdering strangulation
with ligature made of clothing tied with complex slip knots.

(01:20:34):
And so they, uh, they go to trial. Oh, when
he gets arrested, he gets put in jail, he slits
his wrists and there's even more support for him and
more empathy for him. So he finally goes to trial
ding dongs and uh, it's two months later after his arrest,

(01:20:55):
and his defense is, why would I kill women? I
have a very healthy sex life. I've slept with over
one hundred and fifty women, which is exactly the number
that Alex Jones said when he was talking about how
many women he slept with, really, which I think is
kind of funny. One hundred and fifty is like just
ridiculous enough. Yeah, and as if it has any one

(01:21:17):
has anything to do with you. Totally, I love women.
Why would I kill women? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
We know I don't need to have sex, Yes, right,
I don't need to sexually assault one women. They give
it to me. He's like, oh yeah, that's all it
is about, is yeah, sexual gratification.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Right, No, no, you fucking lunatic. So up until they say
up until kind of like this turning point. He did
have those supporters weren't relenting until the guy from the
FBI came and pointed out the crime signature. And they
had all these pieces of clothing from all the murders
and he just held them up one after the other

(01:21:51):
and was like complex slipknot, complex slipknot on every single one.
And that's when the room turned and it all went
different for him. He was convicted of nine of eleven
murders of sex workers in La La Prague and Vienna,

(01:22:12):
and in June of nineteen ninety four he was sentenced
to life without the possibility of parole, and that night
he committed suicide in jail. And the interesting thing is
that he hung himself with shoelaces and the band, the
rope band from his sweatpants and he used a complex
slipknot to tie tuck. Uh huh oh.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
I was holding my breath for that one. Yeah, Oh
my god, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
They also matched the red fibers on highdi right, matched
the scarf that they got out of his apartment. Like
everything was adding up. But it's all circumstantial, circumstantial, circumstantial.
So when they's that's why LA didn't try to prosecute
is because there was nothing. They were like, you've got
nine murders or eight murders over there, We're not going

(01:22:59):
to be able to get him because everything over here
is circumstantial and not there's nothing solid. It's all just
like basically these three horrible murders that match exactly while
he was there and visiting as a Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Fuck man, how have I never fucking heard of him?

Speaker 2 (01:23:16):
It's such a fascinating case. There's way more to read.
But like the idea that while he was murdering sex
workers and then writing columns about the murderer and the
murders and asking people how they felt, and he was
asking about like acknowledging and writing about the murder. Yes, yeah,
he was basically and foe investigating his own crime. It's

(01:23:39):
amazing and oh that was the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
That's stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
I was trying to find this. But one of the
experts talking about him said the thing about the psychopaths,
the kind of psychopath that he is, is you stop
focusing on what they do, and they make you focus
on them. And that's how that like it's cult of personality.
So when he was in jail, the fact that he

(01:24:06):
had strangled a young woman faded away and it all
became about me and my life and how hard it's
been for me. And read my autobiography and this is
so sad.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
He never said like I made a mistake and killed
this No, no, no thing. It was like, don't even
point that out.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
No, it was all about him and then and he
was he was smart enough and manipulate enough, manipulative enough
to play the part of the person they were looking for,
you know, to really kind of like be the face
of and spearhead this resocialization plan. He was just like,
I'm going to be that guy.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
Do you think that when you know, when when people
get convicted of murder and then they get to read
a letter to the judge or to the family and
they just talk about themselves. That's the same kind of
thing instead of like apologizing to the family, yeah, or
saying I made a mistake or whatever. Yes, And that's
like I had a hard childhood.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
I was that's the same thing. Wy I've always because
it's pissed me off whenever I hear those no, yeah,
that's because it's the narcissist. It's is it. It's some
you know, a bunch of those traits go across the
board and like if you're this, you're this, you're this.
But it's like narcissism for sure. But then also the psychopaths,
where it's just like it's their world and everyone is

(01:25:21):
just an ant in that world and they get to
do what they want and everything is too power, everything
is too you know what I mean, Like it's to
feed their ego.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
And things are done to them and like they have
unfair things are unfair to them.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Yeah, and if they're like I don't even want to talk,
Like when he was finally arrested, they tried to get
him to talk about the nineteen seventy four murder and
he was like, I have no memory. I don't know
what you're talking about. And just like it says if
in his mind, since he doesn't acknowledge it, it didn't happen. Wow.
I always wish there's a way to get them to
like fucking feel bad about it, you know. Yeah, but

(01:25:57):
that's the Uh, there's no such thing. They don't have
a conscience that they think it can be verbaliitated, which
they can't. It's you thinking. They're like you, yes, it's that.
And actually that's part of the fascination of all of
this shit is there's these people that are built totally differently.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
Or because of their circumstances of how they were raised,
which is like alcoholics grandfather who did these things. It's
like there's no way or brain can then go to
where you and I are and Steven and hopefully.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
But also I think you have to have that because
lots of people get beaten up by horrible grandfathers and
all that stuff you have. Then it's that extra piece
sure being a sociopath or being a psychopath where it
turns because this guy was just like on fire with
the Lord since fucking day one, where he's like sixteen
assaults out of you know, when he's like in his

(01:26:51):
teens and early twenties, he had huge problems from jump
and never stopped doing it and then just tricked everybody
in the insane way because you know, he was getting
off on the idea of like I'm gonna go interview
the head of this investigation and ask them if they
have any idea who's doing this, and the answer is no,

(01:27:11):
and he gets together.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
They were like, none of them were like, that's weird
that he's putting himself, you know, because that's one of
the things is that they put the murderers put themselves
in the middle of the investigation or just a little
too interested in it. Yeah, I guess they didn't know
that then.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
They didn't know it. It's so funny too, because it's
not that long ago. It's the nice but it's still
police procedurally, it's long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
Well, that just explains to me a thing that I
haven't really ever understood, which is why Anne Rule never
suspected or even took a while after Ted Bundy was
arrested to be like, yeah, it was him, so she
was under that same fucking spell.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Yes, okay, It's like it never understood.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
It was like, how did you fucking not know?

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
Because you know, haven't you ever met a person like that? Like,
I've definitely met one person in particular where the charisma
is such they make you think that they think you're
the only person in the world and that most people
never get that unless you're like exceedingly beautiful or special
in some way. It's this actual specific relationship you're having

(01:28:15):
that's because of the two of you. Right, But there
eence makes me feel that way, and I don't want
to make it well, but that's because that's that's it's
you make him feel that way too, right, But when
you meet those people, like when it it. In my opinion,
I think a lot of love at first sight is
like the first time you made a sociopath because they
know how, they know how to manipulate you, and they

(01:28:38):
have their reasons for it, even if it doesn't make
sense to you or in your mind it's like why
would you do that? Yeah, we had this magical thing,
and it's like trying to get what are you getting
out of this?

Speaker 1 (01:28:48):
Nothing?

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
Well, having young women be in love with you everywhere
you go, you know, is part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
Yeah, because we don't need that, so we don't understand
why other people would need that too.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
Right or you if you need it, you can then
go oh yeah, but that would be mean to do
to a person who I didn't love back, Like you
can bring an actual, you know, conscience into it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
I saw a relationship like that of two people I know,
and it was like everyone was like, how the fuck
do you not see this person doesn't think like you. Yeah,
and it's like so surprising to see that from a
smart person not understanding these like really obvious to everyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
Don't you think smart people are almost more susceptible because
it's like I never think I'm going to fall for anything.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
Yeah, and they're almost more like they can intellectualize a
way away these things because they're not just ding dongs
going along with it. They're like, well, I'm really smart,
so I would clearly know this well.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
And also I think that brain based people ignore their
gut more.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
So it's like I've met plenty of people who weren't,
say BookSmart, which I also didn't mean to just say
I'm so smart, because I'm true. I've proven here time
again that I'm not listen.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
If this is your first episode, you know that we
don't even have to say that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
Please know this. But there are people who don't get
bogged down in thinking and just go, oh, give goodbye.
This feels awful for whatever reason, whereas if you're a
big thinker and a big analyzer, then it's like, you know,
this never happens, and this is I'm I'm magically being
chosen by this amazing, magical person who is so charismatic,

(01:30:26):
and so you know what I mean, like does a
thing that you're like, what, this doesn't happen, This is uncommon.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
Well, I want to say it's also because of self esteem,
but or no, no, I was going to say, it's also
because you and I have been through a lot of
experiences where that has happened to us, and we have,
you know, since we were very young and went through
some shit. But it's also so we're like skeptical and
thinking that way. But also when that happened to me
when I was younger, I had really low self esteem. Yes,
so you know it's not just that I didn't know,

(01:30:54):
it's that that they were like that or what people
were like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
It's that I when someone treats you that, it's almost
like they find people with low self esteem. And but yeah,
they can see you at a bar that you are
that person, and the moment they say a word to you,
they can tell if you are or not. That's right,
That's exactly right, because you know it's funny the person
I'm thinking of that. I had this experience with where
I was like the things I was thinking that it was,

(01:31:18):
and the reality of what it was. I learned terribly
about a year later when I watched him do the
exact same thing to my friend who does not have
low self esteem. When I introduced them, I was standing
there and I watched the look. It was like watching
a look come over. So it's like watching a predator
like see you know, like like like a thing changed

(01:31:39):
colors to fit the environment. Yes, And when I saw
the look on his face and my heart just dropped
of like, oh no, that's it wasn't love at first sight.
That's the thing he does to everybody. My friend was
just like, hey, what's like, nice to meet you and
moved on, didn't give a shit, and I was just like,
oh man, this is all so awful.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
Yeah, yeah, but I don't think it can happen to
us again, or if it does, we'll be more aware
of it. And you know, they're fucking friends.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
It'll never happen again because I'm an emotional lighthouse on
the very tip of Maine, and I'll be there forever. Goodbye. Well,
at least you're.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
Gonna have lighthouse cats.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
That's fun. It's really the only like positive I can
think of that at least you always get free clam
chowder at a lighthouse. Oh my god, with the oyster
crackers on top of him, the big sweater and I'll
play the cello. Oh my gosh, this is gonna be
great for me.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
Me me go live with Karen in her lighthouse.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
I should get Mimi. I'm her number one fan, all right. Anyway,
that's that's the story. That's how it is, and we're
sticking to on it. Tease and ies and hey, what
happened this week that you're happy or like? Any you know?

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
What do you like?

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
Oh? You know what? I'll tell you I like? And
it is It is another present. But because we do
get tons of presents, we do thank you for all
your presence it. We love them, we do. We talk
about them a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:33:04):
And did you see the thing that someone gave us?
It's his thing, Like we really fucking lose our minds,
we really do it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
So we did get a present last week and it
was from another person that I know from Twitter, Andrew,
and he tried to send this thing twice.

Speaker 1 (01:33:18):
I'm sorry, I don't pick up my po box and
up and I think they fucking hate me there.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
Too, because you get so much stuff. Now, yes, they
fucking hate me. Lots of presents. Well, he sent us
he is a woodworker, and we got, oh yeah, these
gorgeous pens in hand carved pen holders, pen places, boxes, yeah,
whatever they were. And then he carved Stephen a mustache

(01:33:44):
for his I mean a comb for his mustache, giant
wooden comb for his mustache. Steven, have you been using it?
I mean every day my mustache. I feel like it
does look good. It's like it looks good. I gotta,
you know, keep it, keep it tight. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
It's part of your persona now high and tight.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
So Andrew, it's Andrew Hess that I know from Twitter,
and he's a great woodworker. And thank you so much
for sending those and we finally got them and we
were blown away, blown away by that. It was so thoughtful.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
Yeah. I was always trying to think of things that
make me happier, things that I loved, and so I
just put up this hummingbird feeder right outside, and like,
I love hummingbirds. And there's been like fucking it's been
like a swarm of hummingbirds, and every time I see
when I yell, even if I'm alone Heavybird, Like, I
just can't not yell Heavybird, even though they're like it's

(01:34:33):
like every ten minutes. But the thing I love is
that it made me realize that they're fucking assholes to
each other.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
Hummingbirds aren't.

Speaker 1 (01:34:40):
Yeah, they're really aggressive and territorial and they keep fighting
against it. And maybe me so happy because it's like everyone's.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
Like humming birds are so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
And they get tattoos of them and they love them,
and it's like, well, they can be fucking dicks too,
And it's just this like a positive light to me
of like, don't don't compare yourself, don't don't put yourself
up to standards of hummingbirds. No, because they're actually assholes. Yeah,
and then they're and they're sugar freaks.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
They're they're addicted to sugar and they just got to
get theirs. Just like everybody else.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
They are mean to each other. It's very funny.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):
It's funny because I face the sliding glass door where
the hummingbird feeders are, and so the whole time, especially today,
I can see them, and there's a lot it's like
three at a time every four minutes, so it's really
hard to concentrate. Like every I keep wanting to go look,
but then.

Speaker 1 (01:35:33):
It's like exact and it's so Yeah, it's so distracting,
but it's this peaceful thing of staring at a hummingbird
is so nice.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
But then they fucking dive bomb.

Speaker 1 (01:35:41):
Each other and chirp like yell at each other, and
then you hear their wings are this is like, it's
just really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
They're cool. Yeah, they're super cool. There's actually a video
my friend sent me once. Uh, there's a guy who
put a GoPro on his face and then put a
hummingbird feeder like near under the gop so that it
was basically hummingbirds flying up to his face drinking their stuff,
but so he could get these first person view slow

(01:36:08):
of hummingbirds. Dude, the best video people are the best.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Hummingbirds are fucking dick, So don't worry about your life, right,
people are the best, Yeah, especially when they have a
go pro strapped list. What we're trying to teach you.

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
Is might be unclear now, but it's going to become
clear very soon. Within the next ten years. It'll be
so obvious, and you'll be like, oh my god, they
were right, And now they live on a tiny island
in Maine and we can't tell them Clamchowder Town. I'm
the mayor of Clamchowder Town. Mimi is the mascot, and
you guys are the listeners and you're the ocean. Thank you,

(01:36:46):
guys for being our ocean. Our waves are everything. Yeah,
our see. You guys go deeper than we ever believed possible.
Thank you for being the monster underneath the rock deep
down in the sea. Yeah, that's gonna save us from
the end of the world.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
That changes colors to match the environment. You guys are
always evolving with us.

Speaker 2 (01:37:03):
That's right. You're the cuddlefish of this podcast, and we
appreciate you want to cuddle with you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
Bye bye bye, Elvis, get your ass out here. He's
keeping Vin's company and the.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
Elvis Elvis, Elvis. Do you want to cook? Key, wait, Elvis,
you want to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Yeah? Yes, Bye bye.