April 15, 2025 • 57 mins
Martin Sheen is one of the world’s most beloved actors — an Emmy and Golden Globe winner, a lifelong activist, and the man who inspired a generation as President Jed Bartlet on The West Wing.
But in this unforgettable episode of the My Legacy podcast, Martin isn’t playing a role — he’s baring his soul. Alongside his longtime friend and personal hero Father John Dear, Martin joins co-hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger to reflect on faith, family, and failure.
He shares the defining moments of his life — from battling addiction and the painful decision he made to help save his son Charlie Sheen, to the first time he crossed the line and got arrested for something he believed in — and how those moments became the foundation for a life of conviction, compassion, and courage.
This episode is for anyone who’s ever wondered how to stay grounded in your values, support someone you love, or keep hope alive in a broken world — with a little extra inspiration from President Bartlet to help us through these hard times.
Creator and Executive Producer: Suzanne Hayward
Co-Executive Producer: Lisa Lisle
Editor Duane Fogwell
Post-production producer Tina Pittaway
A/V by Garcia Creative
Produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Executive Producer Gabrielle Collins.
Like our podcast? Visit http://youtube.com/@mylegacymovement to see full episodes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I had a very severe problem with alcohol, and then
when I saw that in them, when I was desperate
to help one of my children, it ruptured our relationship
because I was butting in, interfering, you know, and insisting,
and I went so far as to do I guess
(00:24):
the unthinkable, you know, I went to the authorities.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What was that experience?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Like fuse?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It was devastating, you know, it just it just ruptured
our relationship.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hello Loves. That was legendary actor Martin Sheen reflecting on
his most heartbreaking and courageous moments as a father. We
were honored to welcome the beloved actor and lifelong activists
alongside his dear friend, father John Deere, a Jesuit Priests,
author and tireless advocate for peace. From moments of courage
(00:56):
and civil disobedience to reflections on spirituality and the power
of connection, this episode is nothing short of a masterclass
in living a life larger than yourself. This is My
Legacy host it by me Andrea Waters King alongside my
husband Martin Luther King the Third and our good friends
(01:17):
Mark and Craig Kilberger. Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Welcome to My Legacy podcast. One of the things that
makes this podcast special is we don't just meet extraordinary individuals.
We meet the people who know them best, someone who
has shared their highs, their lows, and everything in between,
giving us deeper insight and understanding into what truly shapes
who they are today. Were thrilled to welcome Martin Sheen.
I've loved actor and activist, and Martin, you brought someone
(01:46):
with you here today. Would you do us the honor
to introduce him to our audience and who he is
to you?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'm very honored to be here, first of all,
and that you gave me the privilege of inviting one
of my heroes. It's John Deere. I think John and
I met him Jail. I'm not sure. I'm a bit older,
but I think of him as my older brother. He's
an inspiration. He's a spiritual guide, a great non violent advocate,
(02:16):
and who for me, coined the phrase the non violent Jesus.
And I heard it in his first sermon, the first
mask that he gave in Washington's.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And interesting, you prefer John rather than father johnre Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Okay? John?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well, John and Martin, thank you both, and to our listeners,
this is gonna be a little bit confusing because we
have two extraordinary Martin's here newless to say, we got
Martin Sheen and Martin Luther King the third. So we're
gonna start though with Martin Sheen and I should I
should say we all know each other very well. We've
known you for a couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Now, Martin.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And when you tell the story about your folks, I
love how you share your origin and how that almost
determined your legacy to become a social justice advocate. Can
you take us back a little bit to your parents.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
They were my first heroes and my inspiration of how
to live a consequential life. I guess that we were
all called to be responsible for what we do and
what we failed to do, and they were my first teachers.
So my father was Francisco Steves. He was from a
(03:17):
very small village in northern Spain and Galicia called Bararruvius
sult of Ravolta. He was raised on the Minho River,
which separate Spain from Portugal, so he spoke both languages.
He came to the United States with his brother Alfonso
when he was fourteen, so his brother was sixteen, and
(03:37):
they landed at Port of New York and refused entry
because they were Spanish, and the Spanish American War was
newly fought and there was a quota on Spaniards but
not Hispanics. And so they got on the next boat
for Cuba. And they spent three years in Cuba, and
my father worked in the sugar cane fields and he
saved his money, so he worked his way up to Dayton, Ohio.
(03:59):
He'd heard that there was a factory there called the
NCR and they were hiring a lot of immigrants. He
didn't speak English, so he was in a citizenship class
and he met this young lady from Ireland who was
sent to the United States in nineteen twenty one on
her eighteenth birthday to kind of protect her life really,
(04:22):
because her family were all involved in the struggle for independence.
They were all ira and they fell in love and
got married. She taught him how to speak English when
they were married there in nineteen twenty seven, and they
had My mother had twelve pregnancies, ten survived, nine boys,
one girl, and I'm a seventh son. I've often said
(04:43):
that I had a leg up when it came to
social justice activism because to be raised in such a
large family immigrant family. You were either Irish, Catholic or Hispanic,
and I was lucky enough to be both. So I
felt I had a calling all my life, I felt
that I had a responsibility, and I was raised in
the Catholic faith. Of course, I went to an all
(05:05):
boys Catholic high school in Dayton, Shamanad. It's now co ed,
and so they had a very profound effect on me,
the brothers there. And to really express my faith, it
had to be expression. It had to be expressed in
what we did or what we failed to do. And
(05:26):
so I became involved very young and very active when
I was fourteen. Senator Brown gets a big kick out
of the story of my founding a union when I
was fourteen. It's true. I started cattying at a very
exclusive private club in Ohio when I was nine years old,
and all my brothers in front of me had caddied there.
(05:47):
We were just kids, you know, and carrying these bags
for these very privileged characters, and so I thought, well,
it's time to get their attention. So I formed a
union with the lads and we called a wildcat strike
on what on ladies did, because we knew the women
would not carry their bags on Tuesday, Tuesday mornings.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
How did that go?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
It went very well for us the first couple of days,
but then about seventy two hours they fired us all.
But it was the greatest lesson I could have learned.
To this day, I can't belong to anything private. I'm embarrassed,
you know.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Saying, well, you were fourteen years old. Is there any
particular story from your childhood that would give us and
our listeners a window into what it was like growing
up in your households and how that impacted I'm sure,
Oh there were.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah. In fact, there was at one point there was
still eight of.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Us in the house, your amazing mother and my mother.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, yeah, and she she passed away in nineteen fifty one,
so so my dad was left to carry the burden.
So that that was a big, course, a huge loss
in our lives, you know, kind of odd. I was
an altar boy then, you know, And and we were
at my brother Alfonso and I were asked to serve
(07:12):
her funeral, and I thought it just seemed kind of
you know, we'd served funerals before, but never a parent.
And I'm glad we did because it was it got
us so close to the to the mass, you know,
and to the celebration of her life, although it was
hopelessly heartbreaking and sad and you know, can you never
(07:34):
kind of get over that loss? So young?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
How old were you.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
When mother died? Yes, I was almost eleven. It was like, yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Was you and Martin were the exact same age when
you all lost a parent.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, it makes a pro pround difference. Yeah, no question,
no question.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Yeah, let me ask this question, Martin, how did the
two of you meet?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You got arrested at the Riverside Research Institute with Dan,
and then a year later you came back and got
arrested and we went for a long walk that night.
We walked all across Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So you met in jail, Uh, which would be interested.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
There's so many arrests. I've been arrested eighty five times
and wow, no, but then there's others that they didn't
arrest me. And it's a way of life for me
eighty five times because of you and your dad, your family.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Huh.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
It's all five times for sybils to be eighty five eighty.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Five times for non violence, civil speans against war, poverty,
and nuclear weapons. All injustices.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So eighty five times.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
How many times have you intersted Martin?
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Not that many?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Sixty six, sixty times?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Martin?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
How many times have you interested?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Only fifteen?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
How many times are you interested only one? I'll tell
you that we had when we were arrested. It was
with our daughter, who was fourteen at the time.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
She was about.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Fourteen, So it was all three of us, and we
were arrested just a couple of years ago outside of
the White House to demonstrate the need.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For voting rights.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And so, you know, because all three of us were
getting arrested together, I will never forget that morning. We
had to write and sharpie phone numbers on our daughter's
arm because she would be going to juvenile and we
would be going to jail, and so we had to
make sure that she would have a way to call
(09:33):
someone because she couldn't get to her parents.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
In all my lifetime and all the thousands of friends
I've noon gotten arrested, I've never heard the story of
a couple with their child getting arrested together.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You know, children, as you all know, are so resilient.
So she was with four five other girls that were
all under the age of sixteen that were, you know,
they were. They were very clear on what what they
were doing and why they were doing it. And they
had several opportunities, you know, to say, look, this is
(10:06):
not we're not going to do this, and everyone would
have understood, but she was resolute in the why why
she was doing this.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
Isn't that great? It brings the life the Birmingham campaign
and having all those thousands of children get arrested.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Ye, what's amazing to me is that when you look
at that footage, those kids were in jail singing songs
of freedom.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Oh, they were experience the acts of the apostles. They
were full of the Holy Spirit and joy.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I have God bumps after.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Being don't know if you cross the line and take
a risk publicly in the spirit of Kingian nonviolence like
Jesus in prayer, in love, I don't care anymore, no
more injustice, no more war. You there are Yeah, there
are consequences. You're gonna go in jail, but you're gonna
(10:55):
discover hope and joy and peace and community, loved community.
Wouldn't you experience? That's what you said, Martin. I'm talking
to Martin Sheen about your first arrest.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You said, was the happiest day of my life. Really, yeah,
because I had always been afraid and uh, I would support,
you know, all the non violent social justice efforts, but
I never had the courage to cross the line. And
and and I remember I was in New York. I
(11:26):
was doing a film and I had the day off,
and there was a demonstration with Dan, with Dan and uh,
and he was being interviewed for sixty minutes, and so
UH Mike Wallace was interviewing him on the street and
and we were walking along to the demonstration, and then
Wallace started talking to me about, Uh, well, you you
(11:49):
could be facing some serious charges here. And I hadn't
even thought of that. I said, really, don't tell them that.
And then we got to this, I should explain, John, please,
what where we were?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
And it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I was down Manhattan forty.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Forty second Street right there for fifty years is a
tall building and that's the leftover of the Manhattan Project.
And on the tenth floor of this building, overlooking all
the glittery lights, they're planning post nuclear laser being warfare.
Until we started going there and sitting in and singing hymns.
(12:32):
On doctor King's birthday, Good Friday, Horoshima Day and around
Christmas liturgically for years, and that would shut down the
whole apartment building with the.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Old McGraw hill.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
It was the McGrath building. It was called Riverside Research Institute.
You would never know what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And we started.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
It's closed.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
We got rid of congratulations and I'm not to thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, thank you absolutely, you.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
Said, is the one of the most happiest.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Just tell us that I faced my fears, but not alone. Thing. Guy,
I couldn't have done it alone in the sense of,
you know, my my whole thing was fear. Man. You know,
how how badly am I going to get treated as
their chance I could get hurt? And then with all
these people in there singing, and then the cops come
and they say, all right, you you all have like
the the New York guy. He say, ah, you just
(13:26):
got about you three minutes here, and we're going to
start you. You're all under arrest. So come on, chief,
you were you you believe in this, Get in there,
Come on father, come on. That was the atmosphere it was.
And then you get it. You know, they they start
lugging you. One of the time, you know, you get
(13:48):
a chance to leave and you don't and they just
take you. And nobody had to be carried everybody but
everybody's singing and they're carrying on the car sixty minutes.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
It was because you're you're coming from a place of power,
being for something rather.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Than against exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
But when you know what you're standing for and what people,
I think really get a sense of is what Gandhi
talked about sat Raja that sole force, you know, sole force,
that is what that and there's something about that and
coming together and standing for not only for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But for our.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Children, our children's children. It is something that truly is transformative.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
Once I faced twenty years in prison, I hammered on
a nuclear weapon. So this real serious stuff. The government
considers me as high up a terrascian you can get
in the United States, because I was a priest messing
around with nuclear weapons.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That the government was trying to get co conspirators. And
so at one point the press and John wouldn't tell
any wouldn't reveal any of the other people that had
helped organize and the getaway car and all of that,
the car that brings you the thing, and so the
prosecutor said, and father John tell us, well, you know
who drove who drove you to the demonstration? And John said,
(15:10):
we were driven by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
That didn't go over well, and I got six four
months of contempt. Nineteen ninety Here in La at the
Federal Building every Wednesday morning, a thousand of us protested,
calling from the end of military ATel Salvador and Martin.
That's where we both met Jim Loston.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Hell, Jim is one of doctor King's best friends and
the strategists of the movement. And after doctor King died,
he moved to La where he was pastor until recently
at Holman Methodist Church and died this summer.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
But Martin, your dad loved I mean, he and Jim Larson,
can we I mean, I just think, particularly since we
lost him.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Just the summer at his funeral, he was such we
all know, such an institution and understood the theory and
practice of non violence. But you know, when you think
of these huge, dynamic people that not enough of us
know about as a society, because automatically your mind should
(16:18):
go to this is the definition of a giant will
stand up against a system. You have to go back
to the Jim Lawsons and others. You know, it reminds
me really of something my father went through in relationship
to just nonviolence, because he immersed himself in it and
(16:38):
never deviated from it. Not sure what would have happened
if he chose a different path. What we know is
what he chose transformed this nation in the world. And
you know, Dad was personally attacked. Everyone knows he was assassinated,
but people don't remember. He also was stabbed in nineteen
(17:02):
fifty eight in Harlem with his first book, Strive Toward Freedom. Now,
I share this story because it was what he said
after he was stabbed that I think is prevalent, and
that is that he had not recovered. It was just
today and if the stabbing had been just a few
(17:23):
inches lower, he would have died that day. Well, he
was able to be salvage and the next day he'd said,
it's the climate of the rhetoric that And by the way,
this happened to be a black woman.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Who stabbed him.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
She was going to shoot him, but she didn't have
a chance to get her gun. She pulled a letter
open out of her purse and stabbed him. And so
he talked about the climate and saying we've got to
change the climate. It's relevant today, We've got to change
the climate and the rhetoric.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Since we're talking about your father and non violence, I
wondered if you could share, since I never got to
ask you this an anything about what you learned from
him personally about nonviolence. How do we teach nonviolence and
live nonviolence? And it seems to me sometimes your dad
had it in his DNA to be gentle. For me,
(18:19):
it's kind of a struggle. And I gave it. A
National Convention on Nonviolence a couple of years ago. I
brought Jim Lawson in and I said, I want you
to talk about doctor King's non violence and he goes,
John doesn't know nonviolence. If Martin were here, he'd say,
nonviolence is power. We're not powerless. We have the power
(18:40):
through nonviolence to change the world through love and truth.
I'm thinking of that time you were marching with your
father and you held his hand. I read in a
book and you felt the peace that he knew. Can
you tell me what he you learned from your dad
about nonviolence?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Well, I think first of all, what was learned was
this has to be a way of life a commitment.
You can't practice it one day. Except for that one
time where he became angry with us because we've poured
water in his ears, his children, and so he was
That's the only time I really ever saw him angry.
(19:18):
He didn't get he didn't quite whip us, but he
was on the way what.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
You have to I never heard that.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
You have to tell us that because you're saying you
never saw him otherwise.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I never remember seeing him angry. I always saw him.
He was always very measured and disciplined. And I think
that's what in a relationship to nonviolence. It has to
be a discipline because we are human beings. We're going
to be upset, be angry. And as I said, now
he was asleep and he was exhausted. And because our experience,
(19:54):
you were finally well, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
That the way.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We didn't see it that way time.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
But our experience was whenever Dad came home, his entire
attention was devoted toward fulfilling us as his children. So
it was like I got to play with them. And
this is looking back thinking about it, because I'm gone
all the time and I don't have a large quantity
of time but the quality of time I want to
use to fulfill my kids. So we wanted to play
(20:23):
and he was asleep. So somebody, it wasn't me, but
somebody with a smart idea, let's pour water in dad's ear.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And then that.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
Was not a good experience.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
It was.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
It was frightening because of course we did that and
ran and he ran after.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
He didn't whip us, he didn't.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Catch us that day. I qualified that day.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
But the rest of the time he was no.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
He was.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
He was always measured and always the same kind of
love that he provided for us as a father, although
it was a father son for the daughter relationship, he
provided to everything.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
That's the one time in your eleven years you saw
him get even like upset. He was gentle, non violent. Yes,
he was practicing what he preached right, and I think
that's what the movement needs today. We all have to
reach doctor King's level of non violence.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I think yes, ideally, but I also think there's a
practical and real side of human beings and it doesn't
mean we can't get there. We have to always aspire.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Just like you know we talk about.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
A perfect union, Well we're never going to be perfect,
but we can always aspire to that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Martin.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
We've had this, Martin Luther, We've had this conversation that
you know, one time you were arrested and you went
to jail right next to people who were cold hard killers,
and John, you know, I know that for half a
year you had to stay in prison after one of
those arrests. Like this is like for our listeners. Don't
think you're just walking in and walking out. Like there's
real cuts of quences of how you have put your
(22:02):
lives on the line in extraordinary ways. And I know
our special too too, who was a dear friend. I
think actually all of us here we knew him extremely well.
He nominated you, of course for the Nobel Prize twice
if not mistaken, and he called you the embodiment of
a true peacemaker, which you know, higher praise. I don't
know if that exists in this world. And so you
talked about living it, Well, yes, they're the rests where
(22:25):
you put your life on the line, But how do
you live your legacy outside of those situations, the quiet
ways every single day?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
John, You know I grew up my dad was head
of the press club, so I was very politically aware
about the Vietnam War and your father, and about Doctor
King and the civil rights. So I was raised learning
about non violence. Now as I'm older, I kind of
have a little motto that non violence requires three things. First,
nonviolence to yourself. Really, we have to help one another.
(22:59):
No more beating ourselves up. No, we're all raised in violence.
We're all told we're nothing, and to let go of
our inner violence and to make peace with ourselfs, and
then we can model them at the same time, meticulous
interpersonal non violence toward every human being on the planet
and all the creatures and mother Earth. I always joke
(23:19):
when I speak, like, so you know, we're all for
peace and love, but deep down there's someone we'd like
to get back at. And that person is your teacher
of nonviolence, sent by God to be your guru, because
they're showing you how violent you are, and you get
to practice, like Doctor King, non violence with them. But
(23:40):
the third, at the same time, you have to have
one foot and the bottom up people power grassroots movement
of non violence, as Gandhi and Martin Luther King Junior
have taught us from Jesus that the way change happens
as bottom up movements it's not that we're political. We
go public with our universal love, with our vision of
(24:02):
the beloved community, with the way of active nonviolence in
a world armed to the teeth. This is something I
talked at length about with our friend Archbishop Tutu. Well,
I can't tell a quick story. I went to see
him in South Africa ten years ago and there was
no hello. He grabbed me by the collar and said,
you better work for justice and peace to the day
you die. I was like, I just came around the
(24:26):
world to see you, and I go, oh, I hit him.
He hit me, and I hit him and I go, oh,
man and I hit him, and I go, how am
I going to do that? And then I said, how
do you do that? Thinking ha ha ha, and he goes,
I got really in my face and he said, I cry,
(24:47):
and he bursts into tears and he starts telling me.
We talked for hours. I've lived my life in grief
because the world doesn't realize that God has given us
love just to love one another. He falls anyway, and
then he goes and I laugh. I laugh every day,
and you, John are the most ridiculous person I know.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And he starts making fun of me.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
And carried on and then that sound like him. But
notice he's changing the world. He's not angry, he's not bitter,
he's not full of hate. He was under death threat
even until he died for his opposition to the corruptness
a n C. And I learned a lot there.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Martin Luther King always said too, that Jesus provided the
philosophy and Gandhi provided the methodology.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
And one of the things I would like to underscore John,
is that at its fundamental bottom line, nonviolence is what
doctor King called also is about.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
The Holy love in that great and that the.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Fact is is that we are all interconnected, you know.
So it really is about the acknowledgment that we are
all interconnected, and that what impacts one of us impacts
all of us.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
So I studied Gandhi really hard and doctor King, and
they say, the vision of truth is that we're all one,
all equal. Every human being is a sister and brother.
Violence is forgetting that we and others and sisters. I forget, Craig,
that you're my brother. Actually, then I can go I
(26:35):
don't like you or your other or you're nobody, or
you're an enemy or you're not a human being, and
I can marginalize you or I can bomb you and
kill you. So it's that critical that nonfinance is a
spiritual thing to get to the heart of you, that
we remember we're all one and inconnected. As doctor Kings said.
Speaker 7 (26:55):
How do you build a movement? And I understand that
from a philosophical personspective, but from a practical perspective, how
does you guys have been part of these movements, how
do you build a movement?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
We all need to stand up and take risks. And
it starts small. It's okay, and just know that you're
selling scenes. It may not work, it might work, And
we were weeping the harvest. We're not going to live
to see.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
If what we believe is not costly, we're left to
question its value. That's the bottom line. I think. So
that if we if we reallyish has one more tames
very profound. If what we believe is not costly, we're
left to question its value. And I think that that
is the core of nonviolence, that it's going to cost
(27:37):
you something. The other side of that coin, And and
Martin King, I wanted to just mention a very very
important uh story that I learned about your father in
incarcerated is how much he cared for the other prisoners.
There's I don't remember where he had so many and
(27:57):
he was in there for so long sometimes, but his
main concern was how is so and so and so
and so had neton this day, and so and so
didn't have their pills, and is so and so being
looked after. That makes the point I think of, you
cannot and you should not do this alone. You prepare
yourself alone in the sense that you have to go
inside yourself in order to go out and carry what's inside,
(28:21):
and that is your humanity, your compassion, your joy, your
realization of a problem that needs to be made public.
But if you go alone, don't expect to change the world.
But I think you have to do it and not
expect to change the world. All of the issues that
I have been involved in about you, John, but all
the issues I've been involved with, and all the times
(28:42):
that I've made a public statement in protests, not one
of them has improved, not a single one. And so
it's a lesson to me that I'm not responsible for
making that change. I'm just responsible for showing up and
joining the community that continue he shows up.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You're listening to my legacy. We'll be right back. Welcome
(30:03):
back to my legacy.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
We're here with Martin Sheen and John Deere and talking
legacy impact nonviolence, and we got to talk about our
favorite presidents. President Bartlett. So many people, myself, all of
us millions fell in love with that character, for the hope,
the inspiration.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
How much of.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
It was influenced by you weighing in on writing and
exchanges with the team to make President Bartlett so uniquely Also,
Martin Sheen.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
No, I can't take any credit for that, do you.
I started with the show with a contract that I
would be in the pilot, the first show, and then
that in the first season that I would appear maybe
three or four, maybe five times. Of course, in those
days we used to do twenty two episodes on drama shows,
(30:54):
and so that I would be in five tops. There
would be no first Family was going to focus on
the staff. These young people, these very energetic, very idealistic
young people were serving this very liberal president. So when
the pilot was shown to the network of his NBC,
they wanted to know who worked in that office. When
(31:16):
they showed the oval and I only had a contract
for five episodes, so they said, we'd like you to
become a regular, and we're going to make a first family.
So I signed on, and I made two requests. One
that I have a Notre Dame degree, which I do
not have. I never went to college, but I always
(31:36):
love Notre Dame and I always fancy you know that
I would have gone there if I had the opportunity.
And two that he would be a practicing Catholic. And
the reason I wanted that because I'm a practicing Catholic.
I'm still not getting it right, but I'm still practicing.
But so that the president would have to rely on
a moral frame of reference no matter what decisions he made,
(31:59):
they would all come from that center of his being,
which was a moral sense of himself and in his church.
And so they said, no problem. Well, it wasn't a
problem until we got to the death federally.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
Oh my gosh, I still tell the story about the
council that you received in the kicker. Can you tell
the story about the conclusion.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
When I read the script one, I suggested that my attorney,
Joe Cosgrove be the advisor on the show because he
had so many cases before the Supreme Court, and he
lost every one of them. In fact, the only time
I've been on death row is to visit one of
his clients. But my character in the episode starts on
the evening when this this federal prisoner. Mind you, the
(32:48):
president only has authority over federal prisoners, and it's rare
that they're executed, you know, But in this show, we
had to show this episode of a guy on death
row and that the pre has an opportunity to grant
clemency and he's not going to do it. Well, when
I read that, I talked to the writers and I said,
you know, this is totally against my moral frame of reference.
(33:10):
It can't do it. And they said, well, we're not
going to change it. This is the way. And so
I talked to Joe and I said, Joe, you've got
to give me some way that I can influence the
writers to change this so that I let the guy
have clemency and we don't kill him. He said, that's you, Martin,
that's not the president. You can go that direction, but
(33:32):
then you lose credibility politically, because you know that if
you give this guy clemency that you're going to lose
political favor in certain areas, and I thought, oh my god,
I guess he's right, you know, And so I surrendered
to that because it wasn't me and there was no
way I could change it, because every now and then
(33:53):
I would change certain things in certain scenes and they
would edit them out. I know, no matter what I
said here, if it wasn't going to serve the purpose
of the execution, they would edit it out. And so
I was stuck saying the Rosary for the poor devil.
You know, That's what I did.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Well, And if I remember and correct me, because it's
twenty five years ago, of course the show, but I
can still remember scenes from it. Was that that beautiful
exchange about the saying, let me tell you a story
about a man on.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
A roof and a flood coin.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Yeah, and that whole exchange of you know, first the
boat comes, you know, hop inside, Come with me, and
then the helicopter hop inside.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, don't worry, God will take care of me.
God will take care of me.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
And every time he waves over in the car, the boat,
the helicopter, and then finally he ends up at the
pearly gates and you know, he turns to God and said,
I said to see faith in you.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Why didn't you rescue me?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
And he says, listen, I sent you got a car,
I sent your boat, I sent you a helicopter.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
What else do you want?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Like?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I sent you all these things?
Speaker 4 (34:50):
And like the symbols in that episode of Like the Pope,
I remember that episode, reached out to the President and said,
you know, would you intervene? And you know, all of
those conversations in twenty five years, I can retell that
episode because of just how profound it was on so
many individuals that you had such a deep moral conversation
with Americas as president in the world for that matter,
(35:12):
and that role that you played.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Martin won't tell you this, but you told me. And
I'm going to embarrass him. But he finally went to
Aaron Sorkin, the head of the West Wing in that
first season, and he's going, but who is this guy?
I'm imitating, Martin, But who is this guy? President Bartlett?
And Aaron Sorkin, the famous writer, said he's you. And
(35:34):
I think that's he's a bit Martin.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
John.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
I'm curious too, because the themes of the West Wing integrity, service, compassion,
they're reflected in your life's work. How do you see
those values connecting to the legacy that you and Martin
are building Martin s through through activism.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
I don't know. I Martin has inspired me so much,
and doctor King. There's more movements happening now on the
planet than ever before in history. Actually, more people know
about nonviolence. I think you can make a case than
ever before in history. Just as things are worse than
ever before. My friend and I and all of us,
(36:18):
I think together are trying to keep alive the vision
of a world without violence and killing an injustice, and
that means empowering people to get together and build bottom
up grassroots movements from Jesus to Martin Luther King Junior,
and to do it in all new ways like Greta
(36:38):
Thunberg is showing us, and the Parkland students and the
Black Lives Matters students and Sister Helen Brajon the anti
death penalty move We're going to go through the list
and together we have more power than we realize. And
we're sort of like selling seeds and trying to encourage
each other to not give in to despair or our
(37:02):
own powerlessness or fear or us them that there's a
whole other way, the vision of the beloved community. The
outcome is in better hands than ours.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
God, we don't have to succeed, We have to be faithful.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, what a beautiful idea of legacy.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
I mean, not what you accomplish in your lifetime, but
what you put into motion and how it continues beyond you.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I just I love that, Martin.
Speaker 7 (37:26):
You know you've inspired so many. Now this is an
entire generation. I'm sure you know this people who are
streaming in the West Wing and reliving those memories, especially
under the current political climate. And my question to you is,
was there another role that really touched your heart outside
of President Bartlett? Another role that really touched your heart
that has shaped who you are deeply?
Speaker 5 (37:47):
What about the movie Gandhi being in that you played
the reporter.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah, I believe Martin.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Can tell us about that one.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, yeah, I got a called to play a part
in Gandhi and the role was a reporter following him around,
particularly on the Salt March. And so I went to
India and we were there for about six weeks and
it was a life changing experience being in the middle
of that The film was one thing. The country is another.
(38:17):
You know, India really got my attention. You know, I've
never been in the company of so many powerful, powerless people,
you know, the poor. As Gandhi said, you know, poverty
has a not just a look, It has a smell,
It has a texture, It has a reality that permeates everything.
(38:42):
And so I remember when we Emilio, my son, Milia,
and I couldn't get anyone else to go. He took
off school and went with me, and he was a treasure.
And when we arrived and we landed in Delhi and
there was a crowd of people there and I thought,
I said, Emlia, there must be some diplomat or rock
and roll star on the plane and all these people
(39:05):
and then we realized they just came to watch the
planes land and take off. That they that they lived
there in and around the airport, you know. And that
was the case in every major city, in every neighborhood
there was a group of the poor lived so close
to the non poor, and you know, the untouchables of course,
(39:25):
but you know, the whole levels of aroun nine levels
of societal casts in India, and at that time, most
of them were still prevalent, and so Emilia would go
out every day and he'd come home with his shorts.
He'd give away everything, all his money. He'd keep a
few rupees in his socks to you know, get a
(39:47):
bus or something. And he kept telling me, you got
to come out, you got to come out. And then
one day we got an invitation. We went to Bombay,
which is Mumbai now, I guess, and we were filming
there for Wild and an invitation came to meet Mother Teresa,
whom treg I know you've met several times and was
a great inspiration to you. I think you were an
(40:09):
inspiration to her as well. And I came home to
the hotel that night I said, We've been invited to
meet Mother Teresa. I'm so excited. Next Saturday, we're going
to take the train down to Calcutta. It's an overnight
journey and we'll arrive in time for the Mass at
the community on Sunday morning. I'm so excited. And he
(40:30):
said who. I said, Manta Teresa. He said why? And
I said, are you crazy, boy?
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
This is a living saint, This is a mighty presence
in the world. We get a chance to meet her
personally we're going to be And he said, but why
why what what are you talking? I said, why do
you want to do it? And without thinking, I said,
because I want to tell everybody that I met her,
and I didn't go. I realized that that was the
only reason I wanted to, so I could brag about it.
(41:02):
And so I didn't meet her until about ten years
later with Joe Cosgrove, who asked me to go on
a piece of mission to stop the first golf War.
But that that experience with Gandhi was the making of
that film was was extraordinary in his performance. Ben Kingsley's
performance was he began to meditate and you know, and
(41:27):
to become closer to his own spirit, and he was
He wouldn't have say he wasn't social with us, you know,
he stayed in the character all the time and everybody
respected that. When he came on the set, it was
it was like the real guy, you know, the Gandha Gi.
People would yell. I mean, even at that time, this
is an eighty one, but people thought of him as
(41:48):
an embodiment, as a you know that they really got
the feeding that it was him that that Gandhi had
come back. In the flesh, and it was Ben Kingsley.
He was absolutely brilliant and I was very happy to
be a small part of that of that show.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
After all of the Gandhi movement that your activism and
faith were really kindled. I did, and then you took
up the I got back into Catholicism and back into
policism and peace and justice work. And it started started
with activism.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, very interesting, that's what it started. And I used
the phrase acting is what I do for a living,
Activism is what I do to stay alive. And that's
still true. So but yeah, it started in India because
I realized that at the time I was not a
practicing Catholic. I kind of, you know, put that aside.
And then I realized that I needed a community, and
(42:43):
I wanted to rejoin Catholicism, but not for the piety
or the fear of condemnation, you know, fear of going
to Hell if I got caught, you know, short uh,
And so but I wanted to come into the Church
of the Peace Activists and Reverend King and Mother Terraisa,
(43:03):
the people whose faith is shown in their works and
and so that's the church that I came back into
and yeah, so here I am. It's all your fault, John.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So our fault, beautiful, you're listening to my legacy. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Now, back to my legacy.
Speaker 6 (44:15):
So, Martin, you've raised four children. What do you hope
your children and grandchildren remember most about you?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
You know, you have children as well, and you know
you can't love one more than the other, but you
love them all differently, and and because of their and
their needs and you, my greatest hope is that they
will love each other when when we're gone, when Jane
and I are gone their mother, you know, Jana, and
(44:46):
and for that, you know, we have grandchildren and great
grandchildren now. But I see the love, I see the
commitment they have to you know, a moral frame of reference.
None of them are Catholic, because I didn't raise my
kids Catholic, you know. But I see a sense of
(45:08):
their humanity and their best of all, well, a reflection
of who they are is in their sense of humor,
and in their sense of humor with me, you know,
they take great pleasure, you know, to get under my skin,
you know, with my ego, with like you know, I
can imagine pouring the water in your dad's ear and
(45:31):
then fleeing. Well, they poured a lot of stuff in
my ear too, And I wasn't as non violent as
your dad. But you know they rub you the wrong way.
But your children, they are the very they are reflection
of the very best and the very worst part of us.
I remember somebody was once, some famous person was asked
(45:54):
what they would like to be remembered for, and he said,
for about five minutes. And I think that's okay. And
you know the old phrase heat that hath offspring giveth
hostages to the future. You know, we do, we we
it's it's an active faith, it's an act of hope.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
What would you say is the most difficult time that
you've had as a parent?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Uh, dealing with my own addiction. I'm being vulnerable and
they seeing me vulnerable and my image crumbled. And then
when I saw that in them?
Speaker 7 (46:35):
And what was that addiction to you? For those who
don't know you as well?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
And how did you over my addiction?
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yes? Alcohol, Yeah, I had a very severe problem with alcohol.
Speaker 7 (46:46):
And how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (46:48):
I overcome a visions I think I mentioned about. I
came back to the Catholic faith and I realized gradually,
and you know that that that that this was a
a source of nourishment and grace that I could use
to let it go and I and I did. And
then a friend of mine who was in the AA
the twelve step program, when I was desperate to help
(47:12):
one of my children who had a severe problem, he said,
you should, you should get in the program. I said,
when I'm sober. He said, dead't matter. You've got to
learn the skills.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And how did you use that to help your child?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I wasn't able to because he had no formal teaching
in the faith or any faith, you know, but he
had a very generous and a very vulnerable spirit. So
I knew that he would not refuse me. But I
(47:48):
had to take that stat.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Assuming this is Charlie.
Speaker 7 (47:50):
Yeah, and what was that experience like bonding?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
As well? It didn't start out as bonding. It ruptured
our relationship because I was butting in, interfering, you know,
and insisting that he acted a certain way. But I
think my persistence had a lot to do with it.
I didn't lay him off the hook, and I went
so far as to do I guess the unthinkable, you know.
(48:17):
I went to the authorities and said, uh, you know,
I know this guy and he's he's uh, he's abusing
his uh his uh probation.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
What was that experience?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Like? It was devastating because he he you know, it
just it just ruptured our relationship.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
And where's your relationship now?
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's like I don't know anyone like him. You know.
I go to mass you know, every every weekend, and
so he will call and say something about we got
to get I said, well, I have to get to
the Oh you're still into that. Oh well, lots of
luck with that, you know. But he when he clowns
about it, and yet I know that what he's really
doing is he he wanted to see it in action.
(49:01):
He wants to see it in me. I'm the only one, wow,
that he's going to find that in, you know, on
a regular basis. And the fact that I've kept it
up for the last forty years means something to him.
So I know what he's doing. You know, he wants
me to prove it in some sense, you can't prove
your faith, but you live it.
Speaker 7 (49:21):
What do you love most about him?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
His vulnerability. He was so vulnerable, and he was so
he was so aware of people's needs. You know, I
never saw him unkind to a person need, whether it
was a fan or somebody on the set, or a
homeless person. His compassion, he was an inspiration. He just
(49:51):
I would just stand back and say, Jesus, my son,
look how extraordinary he is. I'm eighty four years old now,
and I'm often asked you I think about death, and
I respond, of course, I think about it every day.
I think I've got a shorter future than I have
a longer pasted. I get less frightened of it, although
I'm not looking forward to it, but I have to
(50:14):
include it in every breath, because you know, these days
we live in very, very vicarious and peculiar times. To
say the least. I love Richard ROR's comment he said
that we don't go to heaven, we become heaven. My
greatest fear is a sudden and unprovided departure, you know.
(50:37):
So that I didn't get a chance to tell someone
that I loved, how much I loved, how grateful I was,
and to those that I refuse to love that I'm
sorry that I didn't and it was my loss, and
will you forgive me. I hope that I have time to.
Speaker 7 (50:52):
Do that, and we're talking a lot about the four
of us, the question of happiness versus fulfillment. We need
to live a life of fulfillment. And you know, the
Western concept of happiness often is the next thing, and
you know, the next toy, or the bigger car, or
the bigger job title or the corner office. But that
doesn't fill us up just in terms of what do
(51:13):
you have in your heart and that fulfillment that you
find yourself in. Because of everybody we've ever met in Hollywood,
we've met a lot of people, you are the most grounded, loving, caring,
engaged person we've ever met.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You know, actors are always dependent on somebody liking them,
approving of them, so you work or you you know,
we spend so much of our lives, not just actors,
but a lot of people, you know, you know, striving
to be loved. And that's only because we don't realize
that we have to learn to love ourselves and all
(51:48):
the human things about us, and that you know, that
image of seeing the light and other people. I was
on the campaign trail for nearly three weeks and going
into a lot of very you know, they sent us where,
you know, the camel and some of the big candidates
couldn't go because you know that they draw such crowds,
(52:09):
but they can only do so much. So we were
sending areas where nobody went, and the people were just
on fire. And the three weeks were just so satisfying
and hopeful. I was. I was absolutely certain she was
going to win. And she did win because her whole
(52:30):
campaign reflected the character of the nation, not its bitterness,
it's darkness, it's fear, it's anger. It reflected the joy.
That was the first word that came out of her
campaign was joy. And I saw it everywhere we went,
and even and I was in the battleground state so called,
you know, and man, yeah, there's a lot of a
(52:51):
lot of darkness. But when I received I was doing
door knocking in some areas and we were running into
people with the you know, with the with this the
opposition sign on their homes and their cars. There was
just that spark of what's drawing you here? Why are
you doing this? And they clearly wanted what These people had,
(53:12):
these volunteers, these young people who were so inspired and
and there were canvassing, you know, So I saw a
lot of that and I was. I was grounded in
the I think. I think we know ourselves when we
see ourselves. You see someone that reflects you in a
way that that draws you to them. You you just
(53:35):
you cannot be yourself and not see yourself in others,
you know, I just it happens all the time that
that image of seeing the light coming from people, Martin.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
As we wrap up, there is no way to bring
more inspiration and to bring a little dose of hope
than with a classic President Bartlet moments.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
And many people.
Speaker 4 (53:59):
Are feeling a little overwhelmed, a little bit hopeless, and
so I'd be curious what would President Bartlett say to
rally them back at this time.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Well, I would refer to a great friend of Gandhi Romandan,
to Gore. We are called to lift up this nation
and all its people to that place where the heart
is without fear and the head is held high, where
knowledge is free, where the world has not been broken
(54:31):
up into fragments by narrow domestic walls, where words come
out from the depths of truth, and tireless striving stretches
its arms towards perfection, with a clear stream of reason,
has not lost its way into the dreary desert sands
of dead habit where the mind is led forward by
thee into whoever widening thought and action, into that heaven
(54:56):
of freedom. Dear Father, let our awake. Amen.
Speaker 4 (55:07):
We have had an incredible conversation with John Deere and
Martin Sheen about faith, about family, about nonviolence, about perseverance,
and I look back in some of these lessons I
just want to reflect back on if you want to be.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Hopeful, you must do hopeful things.
Speaker 4 (55:26):
I love that. I love that quote, and I love
the How do we live nonviolence?
Speaker 2 (55:30):
First?
Speaker 4 (55:30):
We have to start with non violence to ourselves. You
know the simple truth if most of us spoke to
our friends the way we speak to ourselves, we wouldn't
remain friends with those individuals.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
How often we put ourselves down and think we're not enough.
Speaker 4 (55:45):
And then we have to live that nonviolence to others,
including those who become our teachers of nonviolence, because they're
the ones who frustrate us the most, but they are
our teachers in those moments. Thank you to both of
you living your legacies and for showing us how to
live lives fulfilled and with purpose.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Oh, thank you very much. Have very special time with
some very very special people. Thank you for allowing us
to share it with you.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us at my Legacy Movement on social media.
New episodes drop every Tuesday. At its core. This podcast
honors doctor King's vision of the beloved community and the
power of connection. A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by
(56:38):
iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Suzanne Haywood co executive producer
Lisa Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts. Until next time, may you find inspiration
to live your legacy.
I had a very severe problem with alcohol, and then
when I saw that in them, when I was desperate
to help one of my children, it ruptured our relationship
because I was butting in, interfering, you know, and insisting,
and I went so far as to do I guess
(00:24):
the unthinkable, you know, I went to the authorities.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What was that experience?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Like fuse?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It was devastating, you know, it just it just ruptured
our relationship.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hello Loves. That was legendary actor Martin Sheen reflecting on
his most heartbreaking and courageous moments as a father. We
were honored to welcome the beloved actor and lifelong activists
alongside his dear friend, father John Deere, a Jesuit Priests,
author and tireless advocate for peace. From moments of courage
(00:56):
and civil disobedience to reflections on spirituality and the power
of connection, this episode is nothing short of a masterclass
in living a life larger than yourself. This is My
Legacy host it by me Andrea Waters King alongside my
husband Martin Luther King the Third and our good friends
(01:17):
Mark and Craig Kilberger. Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Welcome to My Legacy podcast. One of the things that
makes this podcast special is we don't just meet extraordinary individuals.
We meet the people who know them best, someone who
has shared their highs, their lows, and everything in between,
giving us deeper insight and understanding into what truly shapes
who they are today. Were thrilled to welcome Martin Sheen.
I've loved actor and activist, and Martin, you brought someone
(01:46):
with you here today. Would you do us the honor
to introduce him to our audience and who he is
to you?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'm very honored to be here, first of all,
and that you gave me the privilege of inviting one
of my heroes. It's John Deere. I think John and
I met him Jail. I'm not sure. I'm a bit older,
but I think of him as my older brother. He's
an inspiration. He's a spiritual guide, a great non violent advocate,
(02:16):
and who for me, coined the phrase the non violent Jesus.
And I heard it in his first sermon, the first
mask that he gave in Washington's.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And interesting, you prefer John rather than father johnre Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Okay? John?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well, John and Martin, thank you both, and to our listeners,
this is gonna be a little bit confusing because we
have two extraordinary Martin's here newless to say, we got
Martin Sheen and Martin Luther King the third. So we're
gonna start though with Martin Sheen and I should I
should say we all know each other very well. We've
known you for a couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Now, Martin.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And when you tell the story about your folks, I
love how you share your origin and how that almost
determined your legacy to become a social justice advocate. Can
you take us back a little bit to your parents.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
They were my first heroes and my inspiration of how
to live a consequential life. I guess that we were
all called to be responsible for what we do and
what we failed to do, and they were my first teachers.
So my father was Francisco Steves. He was from a
(03:17):
very small village in northern Spain and Galicia called Bararruvius
sult of Ravolta. He was raised on the Minho River,
which separate Spain from Portugal, so he spoke both languages.
He came to the United States with his brother Alfonso
when he was fourteen, so his brother was sixteen, and
(03:37):
they landed at Port of New York and refused entry
because they were Spanish, and the Spanish American War was
newly fought and there was a quota on Spaniards but
not Hispanics. And so they got on the next boat
for Cuba. And they spent three years in Cuba, and
my father worked in the sugar cane fields and he
saved his money, so he worked his way up to Dayton, Ohio.
(03:59):
He'd heard that there was a factory there called the
NCR and they were hiring a lot of immigrants. He
didn't speak English, so he was in a citizenship class
and he met this young lady from Ireland who was
sent to the United States in nineteen twenty one on
her eighteenth birthday to kind of protect her life really,
(04:22):
because her family were all involved in the struggle for independence.
They were all ira and they fell in love and
got married. She taught him how to speak English when
they were married there in nineteen twenty seven, and they
had My mother had twelve pregnancies, ten survived, nine boys,
one girl, and I'm a seventh son. I've often said
(04:43):
that I had a leg up when it came to
social justice activism because to be raised in such a
large family immigrant family. You were either Irish, Catholic or Hispanic,
and I was lucky enough to be both. So I
felt I had a calling all my life, I felt
that I had a responsibility, and I was raised in
the Catholic faith. Of course, I went to an all
(05:05):
boys Catholic high school in Dayton, Shamanad. It's now co ed,
and so they had a very profound effect on me,
the brothers there. And to really express my faith, it
had to be expression. It had to be expressed in
what we did or what we failed to do. And
(05:26):
so I became involved very young and very active when
I was fourteen. Senator Brown gets a big kick out
of the story of my founding a union when I
was fourteen. It's true. I started cattying at a very
exclusive private club in Ohio when I was nine years old,
and all my brothers in front of me had caddied there.
(05:47):
We were just kids, you know, and carrying these bags
for these very privileged characters, and so I thought, well,
it's time to get their attention. So I formed a
union with the lads and we called a wildcat strike
on what on ladies did, because we knew the women
would not carry their bags on Tuesday, Tuesday mornings.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
How did that go?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
It went very well for us the first couple of days,
but then about seventy two hours they fired us all.
But it was the greatest lesson I could have learned.
To this day, I can't belong to anything private. I'm embarrassed,
you know.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Saying, well, you were fourteen years old. Is there any
particular story from your childhood that would give us and
our listeners a window into what it was like growing
up in your households and how that impacted I'm sure,
Oh there were.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah. In fact, there was at one point there was
still eight of.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Us in the house, your amazing mother and my mother.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, yeah, and she she passed away in nineteen fifty one,
so so my dad was left to carry the burden.
So that that was a big, course, a huge loss
in our lives, you know, kind of odd. I was
an altar boy then, you know, And and we were
at my brother Alfonso and I were asked to serve
(07:12):
her funeral, and I thought it just seemed kind of
you know, we'd served funerals before, but never a parent.
And I'm glad we did because it was it got
us so close to the to the mass, you know,
and to the celebration of her life, although it was
hopelessly heartbreaking and sad and you know, can you never
(07:34):
kind of get over that loss? So young?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
How old were you.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
When mother died? Yes, I was almost eleven. It was like, yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Was you and Martin were the exact same age when
you all lost a parent.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, it makes a pro pround difference. Yeah, no question,
no question.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Yeah, let me ask this question, Martin, how did the
two of you meet?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You got arrested at the Riverside Research Institute with Dan,
and then a year later you came back and got
arrested and we went for a long walk that night.
We walked all across Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So you met in jail, Uh, which would be interested.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
There's so many arrests. I've been arrested eighty five times
and wow, no, but then there's others that they didn't
arrest me. And it's a way of life for me
eighty five times because of you and your dad, your family.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Huh.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
It's all five times for sybils to be eighty five eighty.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Five times for non violence, civil speans against war, poverty,
and nuclear weapons. All injustices.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So eighty five times.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
How many times have you intersted Martin?
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Not that many?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Sixty six, sixty times?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Martin?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
How many times have you interested?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Only fifteen?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
How many times are you interested only one? I'll tell
you that we had when we were arrested. It was
with our daughter, who was fourteen at the time.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
She was about.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Fourteen, So it was all three of us, and we
were arrested just a couple of years ago outside of
the White House to demonstrate the need.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For voting rights.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And so, you know, because all three of us were
getting arrested together, I will never forget that morning. We
had to write and sharpie phone numbers on our daughter's
arm because she would be going to juvenile and we
would be going to jail, and so we had to
make sure that she would have a way to call
(09:33):
someone because she couldn't get to her parents.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
In all my lifetime and all the thousands of friends
I've noon gotten arrested, I've never heard the story of
a couple with their child getting arrested together.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You know, children, as you all know, are so resilient.
So she was with four five other girls that were
all under the age of sixteen that were, you know,
they were. They were very clear on what what they
were doing and why they were doing it. And they
had several opportunities, you know, to say, look, this is
(10:06):
not we're not going to do this, and everyone would
have understood, but she was resolute in the why why
she was doing this.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
Isn't that great? It brings the life the Birmingham campaign
and having all those thousands of children get arrested.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Ye, what's amazing to me is that when you look
at that footage, those kids were in jail singing songs
of freedom.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Oh, they were experience the acts of the apostles. They
were full of the Holy Spirit and joy.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I have God bumps after.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Being don't know if you cross the line and take
a risk publicly in the spirit of Kingian nonviolence like
Jesus in prayer, in love, I don't care anymore, no
more injustice, no more war. You there are Yeah, there
are consequences. You're gonna go in jail, but you're gonna
(10:55):
discover hope and joy and peace and community, loved community.
Wouldn't you experience? That's what you said, Martin. I'm talking
to Martin Sheen about your first arrest.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You said, was the happiest day of my life. Really, yeah,
because I had always been afraid and uh, I would support,
you know, all the non violent social justice efforts, but
I never had the courage to cross the line. And
and and I remember I was in New York. I
(11:26):
was doing a film and I had the day off,
and there was a demonstration with Dan, with Dan and uh,
and he was being interviewed for sixty minutes, and so
UH Mike Wallace was interviewing him on the street and
and we were walking along to the demonstration, and then
Wallace started talking to me about, Uh, well, you you
(11:49):
could be facing some serious charges here. And I hadn't
even thought of that. I said, really, don't tell them that.
And then we got to this, I should explain, John, please,
what where we were?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
And it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I was down Manhattan forty.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Forty second Street right there for fifty years is a
tall building and that's the leftover of the Manhattan Project.
And on the tenth floor of this building, overlooking all
the glittery lights, they're planning post nuclear laser being warfare.
Until we started going there and sitting in and singing hymns.
(12:32):
On doctor King's birthday, Good Friday, Horoshima Day and around
Christmas liturgically for years, and that would shut down the
whole apartment building with the.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Old McGraw hill.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
It was the McGrath building. It was called Riverside Research Institute.
You would never know what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And we started.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
It's closed.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
We got rid of congratulations and I'm not to thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, thank you absolutely, you.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
Said, is the one of the most happiest.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Just tell us that I faced my fears, but not alone. Thing. Guy,
I couldn't have done it alone in the sense of,
you know, my my whole thing was fear. Man. You know,
how how badly am I going to get treated as
their chance I could get hurt? And then with all
these people in there singing, and then the cops come
and they say, all right, you you all have like
the the New York guy. He say, ah, you just
(13:26):
got about you three minutes here, and we're going to
start you. You're all under arrest. So come on, chief,
you were you you believe in this, Get in there,
Come on father, come on. That was the atmosphere it was.
And then you get it. You know, they they start
lugging you. One of the time, you know, you get
(13:48):
a chance to leave and you don't and they just
take you. And nobody had to be carried everybody but
everybody's singing and they're carrying on the car sixty minutes.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
It was because you're you're coming from a place of power,
being for something rather.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Than against exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
But when you know what you're standing for and what people,
I think really get a sense of is what Gandhi
talked about sat Raja that sole force, you know, sole force,
that is what that and there's something about that and
coming together and standing for not only for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But for our.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Children, our children's children. It is something that truly is transformative.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
Once I faced twenty years in prison, I hammered on
a nuclear weapon. So this real serious stuff. The government
considers me as high up a terrascian you can get
in the United States, because I was a priest messing
around with nuclear weapons.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That the government was trying to get co conspirators. And
so at one point the press and John wouldn't tell
any wouldn't reveal any of the other people that had
helped organize and the getaway car and all of that,
the car that brings you the thing, and so the
prosecutor said, and father John tell us, well, you know
who drove who drove you to the demonstration? And John said,
(15:10):
we were driven by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
That didn't go over well, and I got six four
months of contempt. Nineteen ninety Here in La at the
Federal Building every Wednesday morning, a thousand of us protested,
calling from the end of military ATel Salvador and Martin.
That's where we both met Jim Loston.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Hell, Jim is one of doctor King's best friends and
the strategists of the movement. And after doctor King died,
he moved to La where he was pastor until recently
at Holman Methodist Church and died this summer.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
But Martin, your dad loved I mean, he and Jim Larson,
can we I mean, I just think, particularly since we
lost him.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Just the summer at his funeral, he was such we
all know, such an institution and understood the theory and
practice of non violence. But you know, when you think
of these huge, dynamic people that not enough of us
know about as a society, because automatically your mind should
(16:18):
go to this is the definition of a giant will
stand up against a system. You have to go back
to the Jim Lawsons and others. You know, it reminds
me really of something my father went through in relationship
to just nonviolence, because he immersed himself in it and
(16:38):
never deviated from it. Not sure what would have happened
if he chose a different path. What we know is
what he chose transformed this nation in the world. And
you know, Dad was personally attacked. Everyone knows he was assassinated,
but people don't remember. He also was stabbed in nineteen
(17:02):
fifty eight in Harlem with his first book, Strive Toward Freedom. Now,
I share this story because it was what he said
after he was stabbed that I think is prevalent, and
that is that he had not recovered. It was just
today and if the stabbing had been just a few
(17:23):
inches lower, he would have died that day. Well, he
was able to be salvage and the next day he'd said,
it's the climate of the rhetoric that And by the way,
this happened to be a black woman.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Who stabbed him.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
She was going to shoot him, but she didn't have
a chance to get her gun. She pulled a letter
open out of her purse and stabbed him. And so
he talked about the climate and saying we've got to
change the climate. It's relevant today, We've got to change
the climate and the rhetoric.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Since we're talking about your father and non violence, I
wondered if you could share, since I never got to
ask you this an anything about what you learned from
him personally about nonviolence. How do we teach nonviolence and
live nonviolence? And it seems to me sometimes your dad
had it in his DNA to be gentle. For me,
(18:19):
it's kind of a struggle. And I gave it. A
National Convention on Nonviolence a couple of years ago. I
brought Jim Lawson in and I said, I want you
to talk about doctor King's non violence and he goes,
John doesn't know nonviolence. If Martin were here, he'd say,
nonviolence is power. We're not powerless. We have the power
(18:40):
through nonviolence to change the world through love and truth.
I'm thinking of that time you were marching with your
father and you held his hand. I read in a
book and you felt the peace that he knew. Can
you tell me what he you learned from your dad
about nonviolence?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Well, I think first of all, what was learned was
this has to be a way of life a commitment.
You can't practice it one day. Except for that one
time where he became angry with us because we've poured
water in his ears, his children, and so he was
That's the only time I really ever saw him angry.
(19:18):
He didn't get he didn't quite whip us, but he
was on the way what.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
You have to I never heard that.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
You have to tell us that because you're saying you
never saw him otherwise.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I never remember seeing him angry. I always saw him.
He was always very measured and disciplined. And I think
that's what in a relationship to nonviolence. It has to
be a discipline because we are human beings. We're going
to be upset, be angry. And as I said, now
he was asleep and he was exhausted. And because our experience,
(19:54):
you were finally well, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
That the way.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We didn't see it that way time.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
But our experience was whenever Dad came home, his entire
attention was devoted toward fulfilling us as his children. So
it was like I got to play with them. And
this is looking back thinking about it, because I'm gone
all the time and I don't have a large quantity
of time but the quality of time I want to
use to fulfill my kids. So we wanted to play
(20:23):
and he was asleep. So somebody, it wasn't me, but
somebody with a smart idea, let's pour water in dad's ear.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And then that.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
Was not a good experience.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
It was.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
It was frightening because of course we did that and
ran and he ran after.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
He didn't whip us, he didn't.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Catch us that day. I qualified that day.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
But the rest of the time he was no.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
He was.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
He was always measured and always the same kind of
love that he provided for us as a father, although
it was a father son for the daughter relationship, he
provided to everything.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
That's the one time in your eleven years you saw
him get even like upset. He was gentle, non violent. Yes,
he was practicing what he preached right, and I think
that's what the movement needs today. We all have to
reach doctor King's level of non violence.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I think yes, ideally, but I also think there's a
practical and real side of human beings and it doesn't
mean we can't get there. We have to always aspire.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Just like you know we talk about.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
A perfect union, Well we're never going to be perfect,
but we can always aspire to that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Martin.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
We've had this, Martin Luther, We've had this conversation that
you know, one time you were arrested and you went
to jail right next to people who were cold hard killers,
and John, you know, I know that for half a
year you had to stay in prison after one of
those arrests. Like this is like for our listeners. Don't
think you're just walking in and walking out. Like there's
real cuts of quences of how you have put your
(22:02):
lives on the line in extraordinary ways. And I know
our special too too, who was a dear friend. I
think actually all of us here we knew him extremely well.
He nominated you, of course for the Nobel Prize twice
if not mistaken, and he called you the embodiment of
a true peacemaker, which you know, higher praise. I don't
know if that exists in this world. And so you
talked about living it, Well, yes, they're the rests where
(22:25):
you put your life on the line, But how do
you live your legacy outside of those situations, the quiet
ways every single day?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
John, You know I grew up my dad was head
of the press club, so I was very politically aware
about the Vietnam War and your father, and about Doctor
King and the civil rights. So I was raised learning
about non violence. Now as I'm older, I kind of
have a little motto that non violence requires three things. First,
nonviolence to yourself. Really, we have to help one another.
(22:59):
No more beating ourselves up. No, we're all raised in violence.
We're all told we're nothing, and to let go of
our inner violence and to make peace with ourselfs, and
then we can model them at the same time, meticulous
interpersonal non violence toward every human being on the planet
and all the creatures and mother Earth. I always joke
(23:19):
when I speak, like, so you know, we're all for
peace and love, but deep down there's someone we'd like
to get back at. And that person is your teacher
of nonviolence, sent by God to be your guru, because
they're showing you how violent you are, and you get
to practice, like Doctor King, non violence with them. But
(23:40):
the third, at the same time, you have to have
one foot and the bottom up people power grassroots movement
of non violence, as Gandhi and Martin Luther King Junior
have taught us from Jesus that the way change happens
as bottom up movements it's not that we're political. We
go public with our universal love, with our vision of
(24:02):
the beloved community, with the way of active nonviolence in
a world armed to the teeth. This is something I
talked at length about with our friend Archbishop Tutu. Well,
I can't tell a quick story. I went to see
him in South Africa ten years ago and there was
no hello. He grabbed me by the collar and said,
you better work for justice and peace to the day
you die. I was like, I just came around the
(24:26):
world to see you, and I go, oh, I hit him.
He hit me, and I hit him and I go, oh,
man and I hit him, and I go, how am
I going to do that? And then I said, how
do you do that? Thinking ha ha ha, and he goes,
I got really in my face and he said, I cry,
(24:47):
and he bursts into tears and he starts telling me.
We talked for hours. I've lived my life in grief
because the world doesn't realize that God has given us
love just to love one another. He falls anyway, and
then he goes and I laugh. I laugh every day,
and you, John are the most ridiculous person I know.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And he starts making fun of me.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
And carried on and then that sound like him. But
notice he's changing the world. He's not angry, he's not bitter,
he's not full of hate. He was under death threat
even until he died for his opposition to the corruptness
a n C. And I learned a lot there.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Martin Luther King always said too, that Jesus provided the
philosophy and Gandhi provided the methodology.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
And one of the things I would like to underscore John,
is that at its fundamental bottom line, nonviolence is what
doctor King called also is about.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
The Holy love in that great and that the.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Fact is is that we are all interconnected, you know.
So it really is about the acknowledgment that we are
all interconnected, and that what impacts one of us impacts
all of us.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
So I studied Gandhi really hard and doctor King, and
they say, the vision of truth is that we're all one,
all equal. Every human being is a sister and brother.
Violence is forgetting that we and others and sisters. I forget, Craig,
that you're my brother. Actually, then I can go I
(26:35):
don't like you or your other or you're nobody, or
you're an enemy or you're not a human being, and
I can marginalize you or I can bomb you and
kill you. So it's that critical that nonfinance is a
spiritual thing to get to the heart of you, that
we remember we're all one and inconnected. As doctor Kings said.
Speaker 7 (26:55):
How do you build a movement? And I understand that
from a philosophical personspective, but from a practical perspective, how
does you guys have been part of these movements, how
do you build a movement?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
We all need to stand up and take risks. And
it starts small. It's okay, and just know that you're
selling scenes. It may not work, it might work, And
we were weeping the harvest. We're not going to live
to see.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
If what we believe is not costly, we're left to
question its value. That's the bottom line. I think. So
that if we if we reallyish has one more tames
very profound. If what we believe is not costly, we're
left to question its value. And I think that that
is the core of nonviolence, that it's going to cost
(27:37):
you something. The other side of that coin, And and
Martin King, I wanted to just mention a very very
important uh story that I learned about your father in
incarcerated is how much he cared for the other prisoners.
There's I don't remember where he had so many and
(27:57):
he was in there for so long sometimes, but his
main concern was how is so and so and so
and so had neton this day, and so and so
didn't have their pills, and is so and so being
looked after. That makes the point I think of, you
cannot and you should not do this alone. You prepare
yourself alone in the sense that you have to go
inside yourself in order to go out and carry what's inside,
(28:21):
and that is your humanity, your compassion, your joy, your
realization of a problem that needs to be made public.
But if you go alone, don't expect to change the world.
But I think you have to do it and not
expect to change the world. All of the issues that
I have been involved in about you, John, but all
the issues I've been involved with, and all the times
(28:42):
that I've made a public statement in protests, not one
of them has improved, not a single one. And so
it's a lesson to me that I'm not responsible for
making that change. I'm just responsible for showing up and
joining the community that continue he shows up.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You're listening to my legacy. We'll be right back. Welcome
(30:03):
back to my legacy.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
We're here with Martin Sheen and John Deere and talking
legacy impact nonviolence, and we got to talk about our
favorite presidents. President Bartlett. So many people, myself, all of
us millions fell in love with that character, for the hope,
the inspiration.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
How much of.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
It was influenced by you weighing in on writing and
exchanges with the team to make President Bartlett so uniquely Also,
Martin Sheen.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
No, I can't take any credit for that, do you.
I started with the show with a contract that I
would be in the pilot, the first show, and then
that in the first season that I would appear maybe
three or four, maybe five times. Of course, in those
days we used to do twenty two episodes on drama shows,
(30:54):
and so that I would be in five tops. There
would be no first Family was going to focus on
the staff. These young people, these very energetic, very idealistic
young people were serving this very liberal president. So when
the pilot was shown to the network of his NBC,
they wanted to know who worked in that office. When
(31:16):
they showed the oval and I only had a contract
for five episodes, so they said, we'd like you to
become a regular, and we're going to make a first family.
So I signed on, and I made two requests. One
that I have a Notre Dame degree, which I do
not have. I never went to college, but I always
(31:36):
love Notre Dame and I always fancy you know that
I would have gone there if I had the opportunity.
And two that he would be a practicing Catholic. And
the reason I wanted that because I'm a practicing Catholic.
I'm still not getting it right, but I'm still practicing.
But so that the president would have to rely on
a moral frame of reference no matter what decisions he made,
(31:59):
they would all come from that center of his being,
which was a moral sense of himself and in his church.
And so they said, no problem. Well, it wasn't a
problem until we got to the death federally.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
Oh my gosh, I still tell the story about the
council that you received in the kicker. Can you tell
the story about the conclusion.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
When I read the script one, I suggested that my attorney,
Joe Cosgrove be the advisor on the show because he
had so many cases before the Supreme Court, and he
lost every one of them. In fact, the only time
I've been on death row is to visit one of
his clients. But my character in the episode starts on
the evening when this this federal prisoner. Mind you, the
(32:48):
president only has authority over federal prisoners, and it's rare
that they're executed, you know, But in this show, we
had to show this episode of a guy on death
row and that the pre has an opportunity to grant
clemency and he's not going to do it. Well, when
I read that, I talked to the writers and I said,
you know, this is totally against my moral frame of reference.
(33:10):
It can't do it. And they said, well, we're not
going to change it. This is the way. And so
I talked to Joe and I said, Joe, you've got
to give me some way that I can influence the
writers to change this so that I let the guy
have clemency and we don't kill him. He said, that's you, Martin,
that's not the president. You can go that direction, but
(33:32):
then you lose credibility politically, because you know that if
you give this guy clemency that you're going to lose
political favor in certain areas, and I thought, oh my god,
I guess he's right, you know, And so I surrendered
to that because it wasn't me and there was no
way I could change it, because every now and then
(33:53):
I would change certain things in certain scenes and they
would edit them out. I know, no matter what I
said here, if it wasn't going to serve the purpose
of the execution, they would edit it out. And so
I was stuck saying the Rosary for the poor devil.
You know, That's what I did.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Well, And if I remember and correct me, because it's
twenty five years ago, of course the show, but I
can still remember scenes from it. Was that that beautiful
exchange about the saying, let me tell you a story
about a man on.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
A roof and a flood coin.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Yeah, and that whole exchange of you know, first the
boat comes, you know, hop inside, Come with me, and
then the helicopter hop inside.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, don't worry, God will take care of me.
God will take care of me.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
And every time he waves over in the car, the boat,
the helicopter, and then finally he ends up at the
pearly gates and you know, he turns to God and said,
I said to see faith in you.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Why didn't you rescue me?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
And he says, listen, I sent you got a car,
I sent your boat, I sent you a helicopter.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
What else do you want?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Like?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I sent you all these things?
Speaker 4 (34:50):
And like the symbols in that episode of Like the Pope,
I remember that episode, reached out to the President and said,
you know, would you intervene? And you know, all of
those conversations in twenty five years, I can retell that
episode because of just how profound it was on so
many individuals that you had such a deep moral conversation
with Americas as president in the world for that matter,
(35:12):
and that role that you played.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Martin won't tell you this, but you told me. And
I'm going to embarrass him. But he finally went to
Aaron Sorkin, the head of the West Wing in that
first season, and he's going, but who is this guy?
I'm imitating, Martin, But who is this guy? President Bartlett?
And Aaron Sorkin, the famous writer, said he's you. And
(35:34):
I think that's he's a bit Martin.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
John.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
I'm curious too, because the themes of the West Wing integrity, service, compassion,
they're reflected in your life's work. How do you see
those values connecting to the legacy that you and Martin
are building Martin s through through activism.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
I don't know. I Martin has inspired me so much,
and doctor King. There's more movements happening now on the
planet than ever before in history. Actually, more people know
about nonviolence. I think you can make a case than
ever before in history. Just as things are worse than
ever before. My friend and I and all of us,
(36:18):
I think together are trying to keep alive the vision
of a world without violence and killing an injustice, and
that means empowering people to get together and build bottom
up grassroots movements from Jesus to Martin Luther King Junior,
and to do it in all new ways like Greta
(36:38):
Thunberg is showing us, and the Parkland students and the
Black Lives Matters students and Sister Helen Brajon the anti
death penalty move We're going to go through the list
and together we have more power than we realize. And
we're sort of like selling seeds and trying to encourage
each other to not give in to despair or our
(37:02):
own powerlessness or fear or us them that there's a
whole other way, the vision of the beloved community. The
outcome is in better hands than ours.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
God, we don't have to succeed, We have to be faithful.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, what a beautiful idea of legacy.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
I mean, not what you accomplish in your lifetime, but
what you put into motion and how it continues beyond you.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I just I love that, Martin.
Speaker 7 (37:26):
You know you've inspired so many. Now this is an
entire generation. I'm sure you know this people who are
streaming in the West Wing and reliving those memories, especially
under the current political climate. And my question to you is,
was there another role that really touched your heart outside
of President Bartlett? Another role that really touched your heart
that has shaped who you are deeply?
Speaker 5 (37:47):
What about the movie Gandhi being in that you played
the reporter.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah, I believe Martin.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Can tell us about that one.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, yeah, I got a called to play a part
in Gandhi and the role was a reporter following him around,
particularly on the Salt March. And so I went to
India and we were there for about six weeks and
it was a life changing experience being in the middle
of that The film was one thing. The country is another.
(38:17):
You know, India really got my attention. You know, I've
never been in the company of so many powerful, powerless people,
you know, the poor. As Gandhi said, you know, poverty
has a not just a look, It has a smell,
It has a texture, It has a reality that permeates everything.
(38:42):
And so I remember when we Emilio, my son, Milia,
and I couldn't get anyone else to go. He took
off school and went with me, and he was a treasure.
And when we arrived and we landed in Delhi and
there was a crowd of people there and I thought,
I said, Emlia, there must be some diplomat or rock
and roll star on the plane and all these people
(39:05):
and then we realized they just came to watch the
planes land and take off. That they that they lived
there in and around the airport, you know. And that
was the case in every major city, in every neighborhood
there was a group of the poor lived so close
to the non poor, and you know, the untouchables of course,
(39:25):
but you know, the whole levels of aroun nine levels
of societal casts in India, and at that time, most
of them were still prevalent, and so Emilia would go
out every day and he'd come home with his shorts.
He'd give away everything, all his money. He'd keep a
few rupees in his socks to you know, get a
(39:47):
bus or something. And he kept telling me, you got
to come out, you got to come out. And then
one day we got an invitation. We went to Bombay,
which is Mumbai now, I guess, and we were filming
there for Wild and an invitation came to meet Mother Teresa,
whom treg I know you've met several times and was
a great inspiration to you. I think you were an
(40:09):
inspiration to her as well. And I came home to
the hotel that night I said, We've been invited to
meet Mother Teresa. I'm so excited. Next Saturday, we're going
to take the train down to Calcutta. It's an overnight
journey and we'll arrive in time for the Mass at
the community on Sunday morning. I'm so excited. And he
(40:30):
said who. I said, Manta Teresa. He said why? And
I said, are you crazy, boy?
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
This is a living saint, This is a mighty presence
in the world. We get a chance to meet her
personally we're going to be And he said, but why
why what what are you talking? I said, why do
you want to do it? And without thinking, I said,
because I want to tell everybody that I met her,
and I didn't go. I realized that that was the
only reason I wanted to, so I could brag about it.
(41:02):
And so I didn't meet her until about ten years
later with Joe Cosgrove, who asked me to go on
a piece of mission to stop the first golf War.
But that that experience with Gandhi was the making of
that film was was extraordinary in his performance. Ben Kingsley's
performance was he began to meditate and you know, and
(41:27):
to become closer to his own spirit, and he was
He wouldn't have say he wasn't social with us, you know,
he stayed in the character all the time and everybody
respected that. When he came on the set, it was
it was like the real guy, you know, the Gandha Gi.
People would yell. I mean, even at that time, this
is an eighty one, but people thought of him as
(41:48):
an embodiment, as a you know that they really got
the feeding that it was him that that Gandhi had
come back. In the flesh, and it was Ben Kingsley.
He was absolutely brilliant and I was very happy to
be a small part of that of that show.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
After all of the Gandhi movement that your activism and
faith were really kindled. I did, and then you took
up the I got back into Catholicism and back into
policism and peace and justice work. And it started started
with activism.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, very interesting, that's what it started. And I used
the phrase acting is what I do for a living,
Activism is what I do to stay alive. And that's
still true. So but yeah, it started in India because
I realized that at the time I was not a
practicing Catholic. I kind of, you know, put that aside.
And then I realized that I needed a community, and
(42:43):
I wanted to rejoin Catholicism, but not for the piety
or the fear of condemnation, you know, fear of going
to Hell if I got caught, you know, short uh,
And so but I wanted to come into the Church
of the Peace Activists and Reverend King and Mother Terraisa,
(43:03):
the people whose faith is shown in their works and
and so that's the church that I came back into
and yeah, so here I am. It's all your fault, John.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So our fault, beautiful, you're listening to my legacy. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Now, back to my legacy.
Speaker 6 (44:15):
So, Martin, you've raised four children. What do you hope
your children and grandchildren remember most about you?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
You know, you have children as well, and you know
you can't love one more than the other, but you
love them all differently, and and because of their and
their needs and you, my greatest hope is that they
will love each other when when we're gone, when Jane
and I are gone their mother, you know, Jana, and
(44:46):
and for that, you know, we have grandchildren and great
grandchildren now. But I see the love, I see the
commitment they have to you know, a moral frame of reference.
None of them are Catholic, because I didn't raise my
kids Catholic, you know. But I see a sense of
(45:08):
their humanity and their best of all, well, a reflection
of who they are is in their sense of humor,
and in their sense of humor with me, you know,
they take great pleasure, you know, to get under my skin,
you know, with my ego, with like you know, I
can imagine pouring the water in your dad's ear and
(45:31):
then fleeing. Well, they poured a lot of stuff in
my ear too, And I wasn't as non violent as
your dad. But you know they rub you the wrong way.
But your children, they are the very they are reflection
of the very best and the very worst part of us.
I remember somebody was once, some famous person was asked
(45:54):
what they would like to be remembered for, and he said,
for about five minutes. And I think that's okay. And
you know the old phrase heat that hath offspring giveth
hostages to the future. You know, we do, we we
it's it's an active faith, it's an act of hope.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
What would you say is the most difficult time that
you've had as a parent?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Uh, dealing with my own addiction. I'm being vulnerable and
they seeing me vulnerable and my image crumbled. And then
when I saw that in them?
Speaker 7 (46:35):
And what was that addiction to you? For those who
don't know you as well?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
And how did you over my addiction?
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yes? Alcohol, Yeah, I had a very severe problem with alcohol.
Speaker 7 (46:46):
And how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (46:48):
I overcome a visions I think I mentioned about. I
came back to the Catholic faith and I realized gradually,
and you know that that that that this was a
a source of nourishment and grace that I could use
to let it go and I and I did. And
then a friend of mine who was in the AA
the twelve step program, when I was desperate to help
(47:12):
one of my children who had a severe problem, he said,
you should, you should get in the program. I said,
when I'm sober. He said, dead't matter. You've got to
learn the skills.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And how did you use that to help your child?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I wasn't able to because he had no formal teaching
in the faith or any faith, you know, but he
had a very generous and a very vulnerable spirit. So
I knew that he would not refuse me. But I
(47:48):
had to take that stat.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Assuming this is Charlie.
Speaker 7 (47:50):
Yeah, and what was that experience like bonding?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
As well? It didn't start out as bonding. It ruptured
our relationship because I was butting in, interfering, you know,
and insisting that he acted a certain way. But I
think my persistence had a lot to do with it.
I didn't lay him off the hook, and I went
so far as to do I guess the unthinkable, you know.
(48:17):
I went to the authorities and said, uh, you know,
I know this guy and he's he's uh, he's abusing
his uh his uh probation.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
What was that experience?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Like? It was devastating because he he you know, it
just it just ruptured our relationship.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
And where's your relationship now?
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's like I don't know anyone like him. You know.
I go to mass you know, every every weekend, and
so he will call and say something about we got
to get I said, well, I have to get to
the Oh you're still into that. Oh well, lots of
luck with that, you know. But he when he clowns
about it, and yet I know that what he's really
doing is he he wanted to see it in action.
(49:01):
He wants to see it in me. I'm the only one, wow,
that he's going to find that in, you know, on
a regular basis. And the fact that I've kept it
up for the last forty years means something to him.
So I know what he's doing. You know, he wants
me to prove it in some sense, you can't prove
your faith, but you live it.
Speaker 7 (49:21):
What do you love most about him?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
His vulnerability. He was so vulnerable, and he was so
he was so aware of people's needs. You know, I
never saw him unkind to a person need, whether it
was a fan or somebody on the set, or a
homeless person. His compassion, he was an inspiration. He just
(49:51):
I would just stand back and say, Jesus, my son,
look how extraordinary he is. I'm eighty four years old now,
and I'm often asked you I think about death, and
I respond, of course, I think about it every day.
I think I've got a shorter future than I have
a longer pasted. I get less frightened of it, although
I'm not looking forward to it, but I have to
(50:14):
include it in every breath, because you know, these days
we live in very, very vicarious and peculiar times. To
say the least. I love Richard ROR's comment he said
that we don't go to heaven, we become heaven. My
greatest fear is a sudden and unprovided departure, you know.
(50:37):
So that I didn't get a chance to tell someone
that I loved, how much I loved, how grateful I was,
and to those that I refuse to love that I'm
sorry that I didn't and it was my loss, and
will you forgive me. I hope that I have time to.
Speaker 7 (50:52):
Do that, and we're talking a lot about the four
of us, the question of happiness versus fulfillment. We need
to live a life of fulfillment. And you know, the
Western concept of happiness often is the next thing, and
you know, the next toy, or the bigger car, or
the bigger job title or the corner office. But that
doesn't fill us up just in terms of what do
(51:13):
you have in your heart and that fulfillment that you
find yourself in. Because of everybody we've ever met in Hollywood,
we've met a lot of people, you are the most grounded, loving, caring,
engaged person we've ever met.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You know, actors are always dependent on somebody liking them,
approving of them, so you work or you you know,
we spend so much of our lives, not just actors,
but a lot of people, you know, you know, striving
to be loved. And that's only because we don't realize
that we have to learn to love ourselves and all
(51:48):
the human things about us, and that you know, that
image of seeing the light and other people. I was
on the campaign trail for nearly three weeks and going
into a lot of very you know, they sent us where,
you know, the camel and some of the big candidates
couldn't go because you know that they draw such crowds,
(52:09):
but they can only do so much. So we were
sending areas where nobody went, and the people were just
on fire. And the three weeks were just so satisfying
and hopeful. I was. I was absolutely certain she was
going to win. And she did win because her whole
(52:30):
campaign reflected the character of the nation, not its bitterness,
it's darkness, it's fear, it's anger. It reflected the joy.
That was the first word that came out of her
campaign was joy. And I saw it everywhere we went,
and even and I was in the battleground state so called,
you know, and man, yeah, there's a lot of a
(52:51):
lot of darkness. But when I received I was doing
door knocking in some areas and we were running into
people with the you know, with the with this the
opposition sign on their homes and their cars. There was
just that spark of what's drawing you here? Why are
you doing this? And they clearly wanted what These people had,
(53:12):
these volunteers, these young people who were so inspired and
and there were canvassing, you know, So I saw a
lot of that and I was. I was grounded in
the I think. I think we know ourselves when we
see ourselves. You see someone that reflects you in a
way that that draws you to them. You you just
(53:35):
you cannot be yourself and not see yourself in others,
you know, I just it happens all the time that
that image of seeing the light coming from people, Martin.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
As we wrap up, there is no way to bring
more inspiration and to bring a little dose of hope
than with a classic President Bartlet moments.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
And many people.
Speaker 4 (53:59):
Are feeling a little overwhelmed, a little bit hopeless, and
so I'd be curious what would President Bartlett say to
rally them back at this time.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Well, I would refer to a great friend of Gandhi Romandan,
to Gore. We are called to lift up this nation
and all its people to that place where the heart
is without fear and the head is held high, where
knowledge is free, where the world has not been broken
(54:31):
up into fragments by narrow domestic walls, where words come
out from the depths of truth, and tireless striving stretches
its arms towards perfection, with a clear stream of reason,
has not lost its way into the dreary desert sands
of dead habit where the mind is led forward by
thee into whoever widening thought and action, into that heaven
(54:56):
of freedom. Dear Father, let our awake. Amen.
Speaker 4 (55:07):
We have had an incredible conversation with John Deere and
Martin Sheen about faith, about family, about nonviolence, about perseverance,
and I look back in some of these lessons I
just want to reflect back on if you want to be.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
Hopeful, you must do hopeful things.
Speaker 4 (55:26):
I love that. I love that quote, and I love
the How do we live nonviolence?
Speaker 2 (55:30):
First?
Speaker 4 (55:30):
We have to start with non violence to ourselves. You
know the simple truth if most of us spoke to
our friends the way we speak to ourselves, we wouldn't
remain friends with those individuals.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
How often we put ourselves down and think we're not enough.
Speaker 4 (55:45):
And then we have to live that nonviolence to others,
including those who become our teachers of nonviolence, because they're
the ones who frustrate us the most, but they are
our teachers in those moments. Thank you to both of
you living your legacies and for showing us how to
live lives fulfilled and with purpose.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Oh, thank you very much. Have very special time with
some very very special people. Thank you for allowing us
to share it with you.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us at my Legacy Movement on social media.
New episodes drop every Tuesday. At its core. This podcast
honors doctor King's vision of the beloved community and the
power of connection. A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by
(56:38):
iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Suzanne Haywood co executive producer
Lisa Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts. Until next time, may you find inspiration
to live your legacy.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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