April 14, 2025 • 56 mins
When Jemele Hill and Cari Champion get together, it always makes for a great conversation and a worthy episode!
We kick things off with the state of women’s basketball: where it’s thriving, where it needs support, and why players like Paige Beckers and Caitlin Clark are changing the game, even as they battle injuries and media hype. Because let’s be honest, rivalries make the story, but so does real representation.
Then we zoom out: NBA coaching shakeups, headline-grabbing trades, and, of course, the drama between Stephen A. Smith and LeBron James. We talk about what it all really means and how it reflects on the game and the culture.
Then, Jemele and Cari get into the ethics of sports journalism. The pressure to be first vs. the responsibility to get it right. Discretion, fan culture, and how the media landscape is shifting under our feet. This episode is a whole masterclass on how sports and storytelling keep evolving…whether the world is ready or not.
Connect @CariChampion @JemeleHill
Learn More: Jemele Hill
Subscribe Cari Champion's YOUTUBE Channel
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaks to the planet. I'll go by the name of
Charlamagne of God and guess what, I can't wait to
see y'all at the third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival.
That's right, We're coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April
twenty six at Poeman Yards and it's hosted by none
other than Decisions, Decisions, MANDYB and Weezy. Okay, we got
the R and B Money podcast with taking Jay Valentine.
We got the Women of All Podcasts with Sarah Jake Roberts,
(00:22):
we got Good Mom's Bad Choices. Carrie Champion will be
there with her next sports podcast, and the Trap Nerds
podcast with more to be announced. And of course it's
bigger than podcasts. We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with
black owned businesses, plus the food truck court to keep
you fed while you visit us. All right, listen, you
don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your
tickets now at Black Effect dot Com Flash Podcast Festival.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what we've.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Been trying to get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
From the stadiums where athlete to break barriers and set records.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Catlin Clark broke the all time single game assist record.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey, everybody, welcome to Naked Sports.
(01:44):
Today's podcast is with one of my faves, Jammel Hill.
No surprise there, but what was interesting was that I
called her and I said, I want to just.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Do a recap.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I want to do a recap of the Final Four,
which is more about women's college basketball the season at large.
And I also because we haven't had an opportunity to
talk about this the way I wanted to. I wanted
to talk about Steven A versus Lebron. It may be
old news, but the way in which I wanted to
discuss this with her it's just about our obligation as journalist. Oftentimes,
(02:22):
Stephen A said something that I thought was really interesting.
Oftentimes journalists don't report everything that they know, and they shouldn't.
Sometimes there's just no benefit to doing that. But the
case is also true for athletes who know things about journalists.
Sometimes you know things about people who cover you that
you don't often talk about as well. And to me,
(02:46):
in today's age where everybody wants information and everybody loves
the mess, it's really difficult not and sometimes not necessarily difficult,
but it's really hard not to get caught up in
the mess because it's so tempting to go there.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It just is.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So we get into that conversation. But as we begin
to record this podcast, they fired the GM and the
head coach of the Denver Nuggets, and I was like,
I guess if we can't get along, everybody gotta go.
Nobody's safe. This is on the heels of the Memphis
coach being fired, Luca being traded, and my thought process was,
(03:23):
we live in a world today where nobody is safe.
I'm talking about your job, my job. As we can see,
they're coming for government jobs. I'm watching people who do
what I do for a living. If they go to
if they get too far into the DEI and the
criticism of the current administration, they're losing their jobs. And
we live in a world, quite frankly, where I just believe,
(03:45):
no matter what your profession is, nobody's safe. We have
the great Jamel Hill on the podcast and we begin
with a day of firings.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Jamil, so listen breaking news as we are recording this podcast.
I just want to get your first thoughts, first, blush thoughts.
The Dinner Nuggets have fired Mike Malone just a couple
of years removed after he brought them a championship.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Is that too soon?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
It feels a little premature, I'll say that especially.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I mean the playoffs are about to start.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And when it happened, I was actually texting with a
friend of mine who covers the league. And as soon
as it crossed as soon as Sham's reported it or
as a Shams I think it might be Shams.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
As soon as he.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Reported it, I texted my buddy and I was just like, Yo,
what's up with this? And at least the little bit
of inside he was able to give me was there's
always been beef between Mike Malone and the GM Calvin Booth,
so maybe it was a situation.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, parents do this with siblings.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It's like they sick of y'all both fighting, so they're like, okay, both,
y'all want punishment.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Since y'all can't figure out who's right who's wrong, y'all.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Can't get along, and instead of being on punishment, it
led to a permanent punishment that they both got fired.
So the GM and the coach both gone, and apparently
they had not spoken in some time and their relationship
was not very good. It just is The timing of
this is just so strange because the playoffs are about
to start, and I realized lately the Nuggets haven't played great,
(05:15):
but it just seemed like y'all couldn't wait a second,
like maybe they just maybe they feel like they have
what they need right now in both the players and
the remaining coaches that are on the bench.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It had to be to the point where it was
catastrophic in the simple sense that they just could not bear.
They couldn't wait till the end of the season. They
couldn't wait for this playoff push because am I wrong
or the Nuggets. They are in the playoffs, are they not?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they're the playoffs and they're a
team I think. I mean, you have a cluster of
teams that are kind of right around the same level.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Some are separating themselves a little bit.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think your Los Angeles Lakers are starting to separate
themselves a little bit. Oklahoma City and Houston, I think
have sort of been separating themselves all see, and they
have a longer track record with it. But you have
a cluster of teams that are around the same and
I think a lot of people circle Denver as a
potentially dangerous team because they have the experience they have.
You know, some would say the best player in the
(06:11):
world and Yokic, but it just seems strange. But we've
seen some of that during this NBA season. I mean,
Memphis fired their coach a couple of weeks ago, so well,
I guess everybody is like Craig got caught stealing boxers
trying to build a clubhouse, so.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
They getting fired on the day off, day off, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But this leads to a bigger issue that I wanted
to talk about, among various things. As we live in
this intersection of sports culture and politics. No one and
what I have found out, and this goes across our
board all industries, but more specifically in the NBA sports,
no one is safe. Once Luca was traded, I was like, Oh,
(06:51):
ain't nobody safe?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
We safe? We safe?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We ain't safe because it just didn't make sense to me.
And I feel like right now, what we're seeing and
I could be taking two different instances, maybe three different
instances and their timing, uh, and making more out of it,
but it feels like to me that nothing is guaranteed
unless maybe your name is Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James. Right,
there are very few people who have played in this
(07:16):
league where I felt they were like, there's just no
way that could happen to me.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Maybe should killed you.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
But even then, listen, what it uh? What's the old song?
These holes ain't loyal?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
I mean, like it's just so loyal like old. This
is sports.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
This is a transactional business.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
By nature is performance based, and that in that performance
doesn't always have to be Your performance could actually be fine,
but they have there's always other factors that contribute to
some of these you know, moves that are being made
with Luca.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
I feel like we still don't know the full story.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories that have
floated around about, you know, ownership of wanting to build
a new arena with a casino facing some political blockades
there in Dallas, and that was why they did it,
because this is really about them trying to mastermind their
way to Las Vegas that we all know they want
(08:17):
an NBA team, Or is.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
It about the fact that they felt.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Giving Luca the kind of money he's going to command
was a mistake because he is not the most conditioned
athlete to athlete at times, the discipline they're worried about,
you know, just sort of other factors. I mean, I
don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of
that story. But yes, in sports, especially as we see
(08:44):
more and more money being invested, the salaries are rising,
They're only going to get higher. I think that's going
to make people not as patient and the demand of
what that player or coach is supposed to do is
only going to go up.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
So a lot of ownership groups are thinking.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
A lot of people in charge and decision makers there,
I think their thought process is not just what have
you done for me lately?
Speaker 4 (09:09):
I think it is like if we don't see.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
An immediate ROI return on our investment, you here, and
however they're able to, you know, sort of put what
that investment is in perspective.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It's just it's the nature of the game now.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
And that's for everything.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Though. I just feel like in the world, the businesses
are changing right in front of our eyes. Your position,
where you thought was what your job was, is something
totally different. I have never seen more of a hostage
situation than Jason Kidds sitting with the GM of the
Dallas Mavericks pretending like he was all in on this deal.
(09:43):
I was just like, this is not happening. Was it
the GM or the president? What's o boy's name?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Nico? Who I know?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And Nico's a good dude, man. I feel so bad,
or because he is.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Just public enemy number one in Dallas.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Right now speaking of ain safe.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Of course he is right, yeah, he is.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And I'm sure he was well aware that this is
part of what comes with that job, is that you're
gonna sometimes make unpopular decisions. Didn't expect him to make
one this deeply unpopular but hey, it is what it is.
And now the Dallas fans are going to have to
suffer through seeing the Lakers as they kind of feel
like they're rounding in the form. And if the Lakers,
(10:23):
if they make any kind of deep run in the playoffs, Man,
those Mavericks fans are going to.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Be beyond them.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
They're already mad, right, they beyond They already upset it.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Then they got hit with the fact that I believe.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Ticket prices are going up next year. Man, they had
his fish greasing.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, that just isn't well.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Changing time to be a Mavericks fan.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I cannot wait for the thirty for thirty, I can't
wait for the real story to come out. You know,
one of the reasons why I wanted you on here
is because I wanted to just talk about what had
been going on in our universe. And you and I
both work with the gentleman by the name of Stephen A. Smith,
and I hosted.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Ah God, I know where this is going. Where is
this going?
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Where we go?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Where we want to ask me about this presidency?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Well, are you about to? Okay, go ahead, Carrie, ask
your question?
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Do you not want me to ask you a question?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Ask me.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You know, I don't. I'm scared I will all the smoke.
You know, go ahead, ask me, ask me.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So let's let's just take it a few a few
minutes back, a couple of weeks ago, well even a
few weeks ago, steven A was getting into it with
this player because his name is Lebron James.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Have you heard of him?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I have, I'm familiar.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Okay, So Lebron James went up to steven A at
a game and basically say, keep my son's name out
of your mouth. Uh, and Lebron walked away. What Lebron
did was very intentional because he did it while steven
A was courtsied. On the day that his one hundred
million dollar deal was signed and delivered and made known
(11:59):
to the public. Stephene was sitting next to the president
of wm E William Moore's endeavor agency.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
His agency and some.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Other well known notables were within earshot of said don't
keep my son's name out of your mouth, back and forth.
Steven A golees on TV talks about it the next day.
He says he doesn't want to address it. We all
know that's not true, but since it was caught on camera,
he thought he'd just go ahead and let us in
on it, you know. And it was this back and forth,
(12:29):
back and forth, back and forth, and at the end
of the day, somehow we got into the conversation of
whether or not Lebron James attended Kobe Bryant's funeral, and
you and I talked about that offline, but for me,
that got into some weird territory of disrespectful, uncomfortable and
(12:52):
why is this even relevant right now? How'd you feel
about I don't care about the back and forth, whether
he was wrong or right. Stephen's job is to criticize,
is to critique, is to analyze. He gets paid to
talk about people who play basketball.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
And if Lebron James' son, Bronnie, wasn't playing, we also
be it. But then it went into whether or not
Lebron was a good father.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
But then it escalated into something. I think that both
of these men are probably disappointed in themselves, if you certainly,
you know, if you take a look back, I think
they're probably both very disappointed in how they handle this,
you think, because.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I don't get that impression.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
I gotta be honest, like, I think they're perfectly fine
with how they.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Handle it, Are you serious? I do, Like, I don't.
I don't think they have any regrets.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
I mean, certainly Lebron does it because as far as
he's concerned, he was just standing up.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
For his him and his you know, Ian Mines Mar
He's concerned.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, that's that's how he sees That's how he saw that,
and he's he's He repeated that when he went on
the Pat McAfee show.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
What I would say.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Is I think once stephen A, I got uncomfort, you know,
and I this, and I approached this as a career journalist,
been in the game decades now, I'm old, and I
just yeah, right, I was like, I'm old the same, same,
And I realize when you're not in the thick of it,
(14:15):
you probably have the benefit of being able to assess
it a little less emotionally because it's not my name
out there.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I'm not the one being confronted by NBA player. So
and I'm not going to pretend like I don't have
petty levers because there's some people that.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Roll up on me and I it might be about something, right,
So I understand that we all don't get the benefit
of reacting with our best you know, sort of with
our best mature responses.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I get that, But when he brought up.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
The funeral pard, I was like, I don't know if
I could go there, and I don't know if it
was befitting of him to do that, because one you're
talking about somebody who's.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
No longer here.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Two you're also then we're getting into questions of character
because him calling him out about the funeral then saying
that he wasn't there with d Wade's Hall of Fame announcement.
Let's be real, what that really was You basically saying
Lebron is a phony and a shitty friend.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
That's what your saying.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That's what you're telling people, right, So then we get
into a whole nother territory. Were you coming at somebody
over how they have presented themselves and how they deal
with their personal relationships. And I would be wildly uncomfortable
going there, And I thought it was not a good
(15:31):
moment for Steven Asmith, like, I gotta be honest, I
didn't really And once he brought that up, then suddenly
the focus.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Becomes, well did he go to the funeral, And then.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
We have this whole investigative Twitter detectives out, like everybody like,
did he people pulling footage?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I saw this one piece of footage where when Diana
Tarassi when she was Pablo it Pablo, Yes, our former
colleague Pablo Torri went. He went all dateline on it, okay,
and I'm like, man, like, how did we kind of
get here? And I guess you know, I live in LA,
(16:11):
You're from La.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
You know this the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Levels of grief people still feel about Kobe not being here.
I was like, man, I just would not have been
comfortable going there. So that everybody's different. I'm not here
to judge anybody's professional ethics, but I personally was not
comfortable watching this all unfold.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I was not only was I uncomfortable when Pablo posted that,
I you know, and it's not for me to criticize
other colleagues.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
I just don't do it. I don't think there's any
real gain.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And I've done it several times, maybe three times in
the past, and I thought, well, maybe I should have
thought twice about what I said, but I immediately posted on that.
I said enough, this man is dead. Let him rest
in peace. This has gone beyond what's going on with
Stephen ayans and and Lebron. You're talking about a grieving
(17:05):
wife widow. You're talking about kids who are very well
aware of what's being said about their father, and and
and quite frankly, this has nothing to do with where
we started.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
The argument has been lost.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
We've jumped the shark, as they say, like, this is
what is this we're talking about now?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
And I know you're saying it's alluding to.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
His character, But I don't think and I said this
on my show, I don't think any any one of
them should play the I know who you are a game.
I know what you.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I know who people, I know what people think about
you game.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Nobody is without some books, and no one is perfect.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
So I don't I don't want to know about their
personal lives.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I don't want to know about their character off camera
or off court that should not be made public knowledge.
There is something about the level of dis aggression that
I think we all need to keep to maintain some
maintain some level of professionalism.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
And I was getting uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I was like, this is getting into territory that might
end up in a space where we know too much
about these men that we don't even need to know
about them.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
And I know that's so high brow because people live. No,
I mean, but.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
I'm not trying to.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I'm kind of with you because look, Harry, I mean,
if you and I wanted to tell it, we could
tell it. Yet out I mean if we if we
wanted to tell it, we could tell it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Right, we just crossed my legs.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Now you get nervous, like we all.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Have something to say about everyone in this business and
there's just no need.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
There's just no need.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And it is it because I don't think any of
us would feel comfortable if that spotlight came in our direction, correct, right,
the real the one that's showing all the skeletal bones.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, so the skeletal bones go ahead, doctor hill Wallace.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
No, we we would not want that spotlight. And so.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
There was something that Steven A said in one of
his many responses, and that is true. Is that a
lot of times us as journalists, we the things we
don't report, the things we don't say. It's significant because
there's a lot of stuff that we could say that
we do not say. And I think most of us
are mature enough to not say those things because we
(19:26):
know we're not perfect. And we know that a lot
of times while our professional careers, we may feel like, okay,
it would have it would stand up to some scrutiny,
but we done all made some mistakes shooting all it
is don't nobody else know about for sure, right, And
so because of.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
That, yes, it is got to be some honor among thieves.
It's there's got to be some honor among thieves.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It's gotta be we we gotta we gotta uphold certain
tenets of this game, all right, And we can't be
out here just on focks like hey, ay man, like
you know that ain't cool.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
We can't be out here wildly snitching on folks because
it's not cool because I don't want nobody to snitch
on me, like you know what I mean, Like I'm
all set like not that anything. And and by the way,
there are levels, right, I'm sure the level of things
that we're talking about don't match other levels of what
people have to hide. But there's just no point. And
it was just so disrespectful on so many levels to
(20:30):
my favorite player of all time. And this is an
emotional take. Kobe would if he were here and anybody
said anything of that nature, if he's watching from heaven
or wherever he may be, wherever people think he may be,
who knows whatever.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
My point being is that he would be like, is
this what we're doing?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Is this the level that we've devolved to that you
all are out here? There are And by the way,
he's had some you know, may he recipes, he had
some moments where I'm sure he wished he could take
things back, things that he had said. But at the
end of the day, we just don't need to get
into that game. And then now we find ourselves. Now
we find ourselves in this moment where and I think
(21:05):
maybe did the NBA need that storyline because there was
nothing happening? People are so interested now? And who said because,
let me tell you, it felt boring. It felt like
there was nothing to talk about. Now I got people like, well,
what's going on with you know what I mean? People
not interested all of a sudden and not wild. It's
wild to me.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So this is a discussion that I had on YouTube.
Is that?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And I see this a lot when it comes to
wider discussion about what we consume as a public. Everybody
out here likes to act like or pretend like they
all watching PBS all the time. We all out here
watching documentaries and only highbrow entertainment. It's like people, y'all
live for the mess. And I wish y'all stop lying
(21:51):
and saying we just want to hear about basketball. If
you wanted to just hear about basketball.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Steven A. Smith wouldn't exist. And it's like, not on
this status level.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
And I find this especially true among male sports fans
who act like Dane as messy as everybody else. I'm like,
y'all be messy. Okay, let's see, you know. I quickly
brought up, as this was going back and forth that
conversation we were having about the w n b A
(22:25):
when it came to Caitlyn Clark and pettiness, all these
male sports broadcasting y'all women so petty, blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I rest my case. That's all I got to say.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
You're on her my case, you're on her. She rests
her case, your honor. You ain't ever lie friend.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Exhibit A, B C D E F G H I
j K elemental he right there.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I said, Look, this is gonna be wildly unpopped there.
If men are the messiest, they love the mess. They
stay in the mess with you and I on some
private group tech talked about the biggest gossips.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
We know.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's a man ain't it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's like, what what?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
What?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
What are we doing here? We're gonna take a quick
break because we have to pay some bills. We'll be
right back in just a few moments. You bring up
Caitlin Clark, which brings me to my next topic, which
is great.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
It's almost as if we practice this.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I had today released on my podcast, I this this
podcast that I most recently dropped. I just wanted to
give a little love uh to Paige Becker's and we
have talked about page uh you know, on camera off camera,
her skill set, the season that she was able to
have this year, her her re entry, if you will,
(23:54):
back into the stratosphere of being one of the greatest
players in college uh in college ball after she was injured,
because it took some time for her to come back.
So there are two things that I'm thinking that are
great here. One, I get encouraged when I think about
how I've watched her story take shape and how it
ultimately ended in terms of her college career winning a championship.
(24:16):
Because I was really, really sad for Juju. It really
bummed me out. I was really disheartened at the fact
that she had tour a cl and I'm like, good grief,
how long is that gonna take?
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Two seasons?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
But we've seen, we've seen and living proof someone who
was badly injured came back, found their way, won a championship,
and did great things for college ball women's sports in general.
I hope the same is true for Juju because we
saw it with Pagebeckers. But I talked about just her background,
and I don't think a lot of people knew who
she was or how she was raised, and just let's
(24:50):
just take a moment to talk about. To me, what
I see is someone who did not receive the same
amount of attention as a Caitlyn Clark did. And now
there are these conversations about the reason why she didn't
receive she being Pagebeckers didn't receive the same amount of
tension that Caitlyn Clark did.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Was one.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Caitlyn Clark is a better player. That's the first thing
that people are saying. And then the second thing is
there's a group of people who were saying because her
bonus mom, her stepmom, whatever, you would like to call
it is black. And she was very well aware or
very familiar with the black community, and and and always
spoke up for black women that the media decided to
(25:31):
sideline her.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
What say h Jamal?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
First of all, we refer to her in our community
as Deaconesscheckers. Okay, because Page be preaching, she do she be.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Governed with that guy?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Tell you where you definitely were hello, because she was like,
over here we serve our strength is in the Lord.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
I was like, go ahead, over here, our strength is No.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Page is like Marvin saff You know what I'm saying.
She coming, She is coming with it all right?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Is she closing the doors? Is she closing the doors
of the church closer? So I think Page will let
you free.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But yes, Paige, w I need to buy my my
old my old school.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Christians know about that one.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
But but no, I do think some of it is
the fact that you know, Paige as a freshman one
National Player of the Year, she was certainly on a
certain trajectory in terms of stardom in the league and
or in college ball rather and she you know, it
was derailed by injuries, as you pointed out.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
But I think you know Caitlyn Clark playing styles matter
to people.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
And when you think about the game that today's fan
is accustomed to seeing, they are used to seeing a
Steph Curry esque game from guards, you know, launching the
long shots. You know, this high level of excitement that
I think Caitlyn Clark brought.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Sports is about performance, but it is also about narratives.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I think that there was an underdog element to Kaitlyn Clark,
even though she was a five star recruit. I mean
like she was somebody that a lot of schools wanted, Okay,
and she chose to go to Iowa, and I think
for a lot of people that mattered the fact that Iowa,
though they do have a women's basketball legacy, it's not
the traditional one that we're accustomed to hearing about.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
So she's paid for a.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
School that is not regularly regularly on the women's college
basketball map. People look at Yukon as they should. It's
true blue blood. They just won a twelfth championship, so
there's this expectation that anybody there is great. So to
some degree, the greatness of when you're playing for Yukon
is frankly probably looked at as water is wet. I
(27:44):
don't think it's as I don't think it's it's celebrated,
but not in not like a novelty. Caitlyn Clark has
been treated like a novelty, and so she has a
different narrative than Paige Beckers. Now, is there something to
this fact that Paige Becker's very early when she received
an sp she made that a tribute to black women
(28:06):
and about how she has learned from them, about how
they deserve more attention. She understood the roots of the game,
and there are we would be lying to ourselves if
we said, in our very racialized society that these alliances
don't impact how people see people. And I think you
(28:28):
can tell in the way Page plays the game, in
her demeanor, the fact that, as you pointed out, she
has a black step mother, black step brothers, that that
in itself for some people, not saying everybody because people
get all crazy and think I'm saying this in totality,
is that for some people.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
That was.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I don't want to say disqualifying, but they were like, eh,
I don't know I feel about that right, And so
I do think there's some of that that is there.
But I also believe that this is mostly about different
playing styles, and people have tried to sort of compare them,
(29:13):
and I was like, they're just even though they both
are guards, they're just they're very different in terms of
what their physical gifts are, what their basketball gifts actually are,
and so so yeah, I mean, I think it was
a lot of it was a mixture of those elements.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
But the overwhelming, the overwhelming thought from if I can,
if I can, I don't know suggest what you're saying
is that Caitlyn has a much more electric playing style
that makes people want to that makes her more mainstream friendly.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, And I think that's correct. I think it does
make her more mainstream friendly. And this is not a
and this is not a criticism of Caitlyn Clark. She
plays how she plays, and I think with her representing Iowa,
that's another big part. This is Middle America, and there
is a level of fixation on who medical America is.
(30:06):
There's a level of sort of quaintness and you know,
that's real America, that sort of thing, that kind of
engine that is behind Caitlyn Clark in a very different way.
But I think to some degree, we said this about
Juju as well, you know, prior to her injury, I mean,
the scoring pace that she was on is that she
(30:28):
would be threatening that all time scoring record. I mean,
she broke Kaitlyn color Cart's freshman scoring record already, and
so this was just her second season and she was
THEMN near average thirty a game. I don't know if
she would have gotten there, but she would have come
well within reach, to the point where it might have
been a real pursuit. And a lot of us were wondering, like, well,
when Juju gets close, if she's within earshot, if it
(30:51):
looks like she might break this record, will there be
the same level of media attention?
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And there won't be.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
And I knew that there wouldn't be, even though Juju
is a star and you already know how La treats
you know, her brilliance is like she got celebrities at
her game all the time, right, Like this is this
is not new, This is not a new space for
Juju to be in. But I do think what does
often happen? And people can debate me. I'm sure they will.
(31:19):
I'm sure they'll call me all the usual names they.
Speaker 6 (31:21):
Call me, but the kind important I gotta tell myself
this you is impot I is employ.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
But the reality is that when it comes to sports,
and especially when it comes to back basketball, I think
that there is sometimes a well, a good black player
is supposed to play like that. Like you know, what
I'm saying is that the part of the net we
have a novelty element in us. And that's as I say,
(31:55):
all players like of course everybody loves Cheryl Miller.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
I could go through maya more people ofppreciate it.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That I'm not saying that they didn't, but I do
think that there are different expectations for great black players,
and there are when we have someone white who is
also great. There's a different kind of fixation with white
players because even though in women's college basketball, I don't
think black players make up the majority of women's college basketball.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
They don't.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I think that's it's just under yeah, there's just under
fifty percent. So even though we have seen white girls
dominate before and they have received the justified attention, there
is a little extra put on it because there is
this idea that this is a space where black athletes dominate.
So if a white girl is able to dominate in
(32:44):
this space, that is special. That is different, and I
think the public has to be honest about sometimes how
they see and kind of play into these racial.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Narratives, you know, So we just have to be honest it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, I do believe, and I don't think it's necessarily
because she she being Pagebeckers. Okay, So what I want
to just make sure I'm digesting what you're saying. Where
Kaitlyn's entire origin story is very Middle America, and in
it was very mainstream in terms of how they can
(33:23):
get on board the way she plays the game, where
she comes from her being a Catholic, a heterosexual, to
our knowledge, white woman out here living her life doing
the things that she wants to do playing basketball. Not
that that has never happened before, but it was the
way in which she was playing basketball. But I also
believe that the Angel Reson narrative also helped, not that
it propelled to.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
The next I didn't mean to dismiss that part, and
you're correct, and I it wasn't she got a rival,
And I would say, and it was funny because like
I recently had the same conversation prior to her injury
about Juju about how like Juju really needs a rival, right.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
People have such back on that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Like I was on a just side note, I did
the podcast with Tarika and Cheryl Swoops, the great Cheryl Swoops,
and they were like, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
They they disagreed, and I.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Was like, I think Juju needs a rival to make
the story interesting. And her rival isn't Paige Becker's, but
she needed a rival, or she needs one.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I think, yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
I mean, look, we saw this.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Maybe it didn't blast off to the degree obviously it
didn't of Angel Reese, but when Page and Caitlin met
each other last year in the NCAA tournament that did
record numbers too. A lot of it is because people
are like, ooh, I mean you know again, be honest.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
It was like, oh, this was the original white girl
four years ago. Here's the new white girl. We got.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
We got us ourselves a battle, right, And so I
think these narratives do sell, you know, games, like part
of the reason why even though we knew the championship
game between South Carolina and Yukon wasn't gonna be what
it was last year, but it's it's a great number
of an absent of Kaitlyn Clark because you have the
(35:04):
narrative of Dawn Stay representing sort of the new Yukon
if you will, you know, with the number of championships
she's won and Yukon trying to get back. Like people
were loving that narrative right or even last year when
it was Kaitlyn Clark against an undefeated South Carolina team,
like that was something juicy.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Like people dig into those kind of narratives, So.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
You need they'd like to see athletes and teams that
people love. They love to see them go against some
level of inertia. They love this, like we need to
see the athlete get to the mountaintop and they gotta
climb up hill and they gotta walk through snow and
they got to get it out the mud and they
gotta finally get there and it makes us appreciate their
journey so much more.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
So, Yeah, we kind of need to see that.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
So to your point, Kaitlyn Clark was putting up hella
numbers freshman year, hella numbers sophomore year. But the point
of explosion was angel Reaes taught her and then then
suddenly every single game needs two play now leading into the.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
W A b A became prime time appointment.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Dealing and to your point, you believe if Juju when
she comes back, had had a rival h that met
her at that same level, that would provide a much
more explosive storyline around who Juju is and whomever that
ex player would be.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yes, I do, and it helps if it's some spice
to it, you know, I saying it helps, Like if
it's because she's like a little elbow, Yeah, it helps.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Juju's very very mid like you don't see she displays
the game. It's that one thing I do what I
what I see in her. I also I saw in
Caitlyn Clark as a college player, was like I trash,
but I really am here just the ball, Like I'm
just here to play that other stuff I'm not really
consumed with. But I'm gonna let you know I'm better
than you. Like when we went to the UCLA and
(36:57):
USC game that I got as court sight tickets to
that you totally decided where you want to just speak
to everybody on the USC side, even.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Though u c l A had provided you.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
UCLA had provided you with said tickets through wah and
you walking up there talking to USC people.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I wouldn't let y'all know I had to pull.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I had to.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
I had to pull my girls.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
I was like, you, really, you've been real disrespectful. You
treat your lady wrong. Right now.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
If we was in a relationship, Jamal, it'd be over
you lucky you married me. I would have broke up
with you, you lucky, because you you did your girl dirty.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
But Friday night I got to fight the po.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
I loved you every night.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
But what I what I realized was that when we
were clearly, as in UCLA, going to lose the game,
Juju let us know. She let all the fans know
as we were yelling and screams, she let'n go to
this side right here and let y'all know y'all lost
ball this way.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
She was like ball this way.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I was like, gotcha, I hear you. We lost.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
And I love that because it was such a quiet
confidence that I also think Caitlyn plays with. However, however,
I will say this, you talk about that inertia. What
Page Beckers in Yukon did was very special. But did
you notice the way those girls was playing? And I
am old enough to remember when Gino Arima, the Great
(38:11):
Gino Arima, who now has twelve championships, jumped on a
microphone after Don Staley and Crewe beat down his team
and said, I don't know what that was. That wasn't basketball,
referring to the fact that don Staley and her.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Players played too tough to aggressive.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
It was some sort of basketball that this legend in
Gino Arima was unfamiliar with and he couldn't understand what
the game was doing. Fast forward to twenty twenty four
in Tampa. I watched them girls get after it. His
team led by his page Beckers. Those girls was playing
the most aggressive ball that I have ever seen Yukon
(38:51):
play with in the last few years, and it won
them that chip. And it's so interesting how he complained
about don Staley and Crue and the way her team played,
but he definitely took a page out of her book
to learn how to win.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, I mean again, this is part of that mountaintop
that climb uphill that we see. I mean, it's kind
of weird to look at U kind in any kind
of underdog role given what their history is. But they
came out there and played like they had something to lose.
I mean, not that they have something to lose, but
they something to prove excuse me.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
They came out there like they had something to prove.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
They wanted to prove we could be physical, we could
be tough, and they were playing with an edge like
we ain't going home without this championship, period.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
And you could tell that from the start of the game.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
And I've never seen a Don Stay coach team or
it's been a long time, I'll say long team say never.
It's been a very long time since I've seen a
Don Stay team kind of shook. They were shook, they
were discombobulated. They didn't know, they had no answer for anything.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yu Kin did asy fudd.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
She came out there with bad intentions, like the whole game.
I was like, oh, this one is not playing you
know what I'm saying. She spential, So yeah, I mean
she she was incredible, and as was Sarah Strong.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Obviously who Alison Feaster that's her daughter, which I had
no idea.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
This just standing, mom, is Alison Feaster with the Celtics.
Did you know that? No? You didn't see that post?
She was like I missed it.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
I was like, you raised a special one. She is special,
but going so let me let.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Me tell you.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I remember Alison Feaster in college and she I remember
her when she played in college and her team she
played for Harvard. I believe right, and she I believe
it's I'm pretty sure it's still true. The only time
in the men's and women's tournament were sixteen b to one,
they'd be number one Stanford and Stanford had some injuries.
That was you know, they were a little depleted for sure,
(40:52):
but like nobody thought that they were gonna beat Stanford.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And by the way, she still has a post successful career.
They show pictures of her when she was playing in
the league and she was playing college ball with her daughter,
and I was like her daughter who we are now watching.
And then at the end of the championship game, when
they went to Sarah Seawan to have some comments, she
was just like and I just you know, we did
what we had to do. I was like, Oh, she
about her business. I'm a woman, a few words, I'm
(41:16):
not about to be up here, and just like I
just want to play. She's just a freshman. It was
so it was special. It's just it's a very special
time in women's sports. And I hope everyone can connect
the dots and see the storylines and understand where we
were and where we are and what is to come.
I think that I was. I was genuinely disappointed and
said my team did not win, but I was glad
(41:37):
that they got the breaks beat off of them by
the team that ultimately became the champion. So maybe maybe
it to somebody else now. I was like, Okay, so
that's just what they came to do. You're absolutely right,
and they didn't kind of, they didn't cut down the
nets during the Elite Eight because they said that's not
what they came to celebrate. And they waited. I remember
that was one big thing. They were like, you didn't
cut down the nets like everybody else did when you
made it to the final four. They were like, this
(41:59):
is not the one or waiting for the one, and
they did have something to prove, and I felt like
it was a very special storyline for Paige Becker's shout
out to UCLA. Though we're gonna take a quick break
because we have to pay some bills. We'll be right
back in just a few moments. UCLA. Let's talk about
(42:23):
them for a minute. Corey Close is the coach.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Say it three times fast.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
She's been at that program, She's taken that program to
the final four or four times. She's probably the longest
tenured coach that they've had. And I just want to say,
playing in Westwood under the shadow of John Wooden is
not easy to do one even if you are ahead
of the men's program, right, but being head of the
women's program, you have always been the afterthought the other
(42:51):
And for her to really figure it out, because I
think she had a lot of pressure on her this
year to be popular, to do more social media, to
do all the things that now don't really include coaching,
which is why this is a young man and young
women's game. Coaches are jumping out of this league because
are out of college ball because it's so difficult to coach.
You are recruiting your players consistently while they're playing on
(43:14):
the roster. You know, right now, we've seen it a
few teams with it. No one's coming back an entire roster.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Maybe they have two returning players at Notre Dame. Women's
basketball players are leaving and they're going to other places
because they want more money, they want more attention, they
want more social media, right, and it's just hard to
keep the main thing the main thing. So I take
a few minutes out to say to coach Clothes, who's
figuring it out?
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Because she's an old school coach.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Right, she's her job is changing right before her eyes,
much like our job is changing right before our eyes,
and we're learning to figure it out in real time.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
So love to her, Love to my bruins. Tough, tough loss.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I was very disappointed, but I thank you Jamal for
being some sort of support with your trade said.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
They support you all.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
It's never that said, were you went over, hugged you whatever.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, the the USC they looked out when the state
came to play and we got the breaks beat off
us and uh no, it was actually a somewhat of
a close game, but a little bit of a close game.
But uh no, listen, I UCLA has a lot to
be proud of this season, and now this is part
of their journey because I think you guys got everybody
(44:25):
coming back all right, just about yeah, you get just
you got just about everybody coming back. They're not gonna
forget this experience, and I think that's a good thing. Yeah,
now they know what it feels like, and now you
know they what you guys were number one this season
I mean you you checked a lot of milestones and
to me, where you really showed your character because after
(44:47):
that game we went to where you all got the
breaks read off you by USC. You come back in
the Big ten tournament and you return to favor and
when you all played them that second played them again,
I should say that third time it would be uk't
y'all came out there with bad.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Attentions and I just like to see that.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
To me, Lauren, look, Laura Bett should touch the ball
seventy two times a game, like she's just absolutely should
you see how you how South Carolina used Carmela Cardosa.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
They need to do that with Laura Betts.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
It's like everything and I'm not saying that they don't,
but there are definitely times and stretches in the game.
I greet forget about her. I'm like, yo, she needs
to be out there damn near averaging forty.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Also though she has the big woman problem, the big
girl problem, the shack problem, that the refs aren't calling,
they're they're dragging her. Did they triple team in her?
They doing all the things that she doesn't get a
lot of calls. She definitely didn't get a lot of
calls in that final four game against Connecticut, and they
were playing very aggressive, very physically, which is what they
should do, very physical.
Speaker 5 (45:45):
But I look, I get it.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
She I think if I you know, everybody's a coach,
a Monday morning quarterback. I think that it's just the toughness.
It's just that mental fortitude that that that that switch
that needs to be turned on. Like they they're going
to dou w, they're going to triple. You're not going
to get the call. You got to get back on defense.
You're not gonna make the shot. You got to get
back on defense. You got to bully your way in there.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And I think I think that bully mentality helps, Like
you know, I you know, I'll take the page out
of our art.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
We just talked about our colleague Stephen A.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
Smith.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
He would always be like, y'all need a goon. Y'all
need somebody to give away five files, y'all need a goon.
And I was like, we need a goon, We need
to we need a goon, and for lack of a
better term, that's what we need. So shout out to UCLA.
Very proud of y'all positions changing. We are our last
topic because we don't hit fifteen of them. Positions changing
(46:36):
as a journalist, and I've had this conversation with fellow
journalist Kelly Carter and other people in the world shout
out to our girl, Kelly, your best friend, our jobs
as journal as a journalist, it's changing. It doesn't mean
the foundation of what we do has changed. Like we
are obligated to speak truth to power. We are obligated
to be truthful, but the medium in which we are
(46:59):
doing it, or that we're allowed to do it on
for that matter, seems to be going away. Legacy media
seems to be falling apart left and right. I don't
think legacy media will last.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I don't want to be destructive, but five years, I'd
be surprised to see where legacy media is in five years,
more specifically black legendary. You know, anchors and analysts who
do news, not necessarily sports, we're seeing them, you know,
we're seeing We're seeing what happens when you speak truth
to power on a legacy outlet like an MSNBC. Our
(47:33):
friend Joy Read was fired for or let go rather
for whatever reasons. Right, you can name a list before
that it was Don Lemon, and we can go on
and go on and go on. Where do you see
journalism and legacy media in the next few years.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
So I do agree.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I agree with you that legacy media has a major problem.
You know, especially, I think there's always going to be
a certain amount of people who do watch legacy media, like,
because you know, as much as people watch things on
their phone, there is a huge contingent of people who
do not actually like to watch things on their phone,
who prefer still that big flat screen TV and being
able to see it, and so just the comfort of
(48:13):
being able to turn into CNN or MSNBC or even
local moves right like, that's a part of legacy media.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
So I think there's going to always be an audience there.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
It's just that the audience is being is getting smaller
and right now, I think the move for most of
us who come from legacy media backgrounds is to do
exactly what Don Lemon has done, is to do what
some of these other conservatives have done, Megan Kelly, all
of those, they've gone independent, that's what they've done. And
(48:43):
you know, I certainly have redirected a lot of my
focus and attention to my YouTube channel, and it is
because that has probably in terms of monetizing, that's probably
the best model.
Speaker 4 (48:54):
Is why a lot of these same people are on substack.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
It's like, now, if you have been in a position
to actually build an audience through like a cmdia, an audience
that you can take with you wherever you go, then
you then have an opportunity to monetize the people that
mess with you.
Speaker 4 (49:10):
And so like that's where it's going.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
It's like, we're going to all just be sort of
independent companies that we're providing a service to people who
care about what we have to say, who care about
the kind of journalism that we care about, and the
kind of reporting and all those other things.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
And it is a new model.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
As you said, the method which we gather information doesn't change,
but we're going to have to become today's journalist has
to be more business minded than probably journalism minded.
Speaker 4 (49:40):
Scary to say, but it's true.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
In order for us to be able to stay in
this space.
Speaker 4 (49:46):
You look at what Roland Martin did. I think that's
probably going to be the model.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Maybe not creating an entire network as he has done,
but he created an independent platform for himself that is
where we have to get to.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
That is head of the games can use it. That's
when he was ahead of the game. And he's always like,
I did it first. We're like, you're right, but the first.
Always we got to the first. I agree with that,
and we all thought, Okay, that's not where we want
to be because it required a little more thought than
we probably had the attention to give. But now we
are required to give it attention and we have to
learn it in real time, in real time. How does
(50:20):
that make you feel tired?
Speaker 5 (50:24):
Let me exhausted.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, if I'm being one hundred percent, is tired is
how it makes me feel. But at the same time,
it's that I've we've had to we think about it.
Over the course of our careers, we've seen our business
change a lot, and we've had to adapt every single time.
When I first got into the business, it was a
(50:47):
panic button. The panic button was already being hit because newspapers,
while they were very profitable, there was a lot of
anxiety over whether or not they would be able to
maintain the level of incredible profit margins have been provided.
There was this transitioning happening where family owned media companies
were then selling out to corporations, and so it was
(51:09):
becoming more corporate owned media instead of family owned media,
and it was a big difference in approach. And when
it became more about prioritizing profit, that's when you saw
the cracks in journalism.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
That's when they started.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
And then it just was accelerated, probably every three to
five years. And when I got to ESPN, the newspaper
culture I've been a part of was really on life support.
And this is in two thousand and six, and so
by the time I left ESPN, you had local papers
that were no longer printing every day of the week.
(51:45):
You had a whole bunch of things that were happening, everything,
you know, getting rid of entire copy, a desk and
editors and all the sorts of things. And it used
to be that newspapers like the LA Times, they covered everything.
They went to the you know, they still do do
the Olympics, but they went to cover major, big sporting
events that didn't always involve LA teams because they felt
(52:07):
like that was part of the coverage.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Now you read a lot of sports sections.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
It's wire copy, right, and so our jobs are constantly changing.
Speaker 4 (52:15):
But the crazy party is our jobs are changing, our.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
Business is shrinking, but the people need the information more
now than they ever have. This is about we have
to be in the mode of wartime journalism. We are
in wartime. We got to be about that. And so
we're just in a interesting crossroads. But people are going
to always need information. They're gonna always need people who
know not to gather it, put it into context, and
(52:39):
can bring some institutional knowledge to it.
Speaker 5 (52:42):
Wartime journalism define that.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
So it's really easy to report under optimal conditions. You know,
it reminds me of when I was when I was
a sideline reporter for a college football season back in
I think this would have been twenty twelve, right, Very
easy to report when it's seventy eighty degrees and you
on the sidelines. So much difficult when the wind is
(53:06):
kicking your ass, your hair look a mess, and your
makeup is running because it is frigid conditions. But that
is when you really prove how much you love this
profession and the mission of it. And so right now,
as there is an assault on history, on truth, on
the ethics that our profession was built on, is when
we need to stand the strongest. We can't be the
(53:27):
ones capitulating in advance. It's never what this was supposed
to be about. Journalism from the very start was always
about disruption, and if you can't disrupt in wartime, you
can't be a journalist.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
It's just that simple.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
So we're in wartime right now, and we will be
under attack more than ever, and it'll be a government lader.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
Attack as it is.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
And so because of this is when I actually think
it's kind of a good thing that so many of
us are branching off and being in it, because.
Speaker 4 (54:01):
I don't know that we need the stress all the
time we listen.
Speaker 3 (54:04):
I love to consistent paycheck like everybody else when it
comes to legacy media, So I'm not denying that part.
But there's a level of stress in this time that
that's gonna come with that I think most of us
probably don't need. And so, yeah, we're gonna be exhausted. Yes,
this new age is gonna require us to do more,
to put out more content, constantly feeding these short attention
(54:27):
spans with what we think is valuable information.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
But we gotta be ready for this wartime. Jamelle Hill
has provided us with the ted talk.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
You take that you run with, that that was so
encouraging to me, friend, because I often say.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
To myself, should I be making candles?
Speaker 4 (54:46):
Now? Should I be putting flowers on bacon?
Speaker 3 (54:52):
Girl?
Speaker 4 (54:53):
The way these tarror's about to hit, I don't know,
could you?
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Because we're gonna all have to learn apparently to churn
butter and be snapping.
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Peas because apparently because apparent.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Going back to they like, yeah, you're gonna have to
go through a little bit of paid I'm like, oh
my god, am I gonna be washing clothes at the river?
Speaker 2 (55:09):
Like yes, yes, get your washboard out. That's where we're
That is where we're headed. I'm gonna be Jesus help us.
Jamel Hill, you are wonderful. Your YouTube pages what so
people can go and listen to it.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
It's called very Simple. It's Jameel Hill.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
And Jamel Hill.
Speaker 4 (55:28):
I T S, I T s. That's right.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
No apostrophy, okay, mine is it's Carrie Champion. I'm sending
people there as well because I just I'm trying to
do what you're doing. Friend, I'm learning these we just
real Auntie trying to go on the live?
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Is this still working? Is this y'all? Can y'all see me?
Speaker 2 (55:46):
Y'all can he Hey, turn this on for your mama.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
Get this right here.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
Okay. That's that's how.
Speaker 5 (55:53):
Don Living first started.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
And now he just live everywhere. He lied from the bathroom,
he lied from a shoe box. He live walking down
the street. He live in the middle of the theater.
I'm like, ah, so you now you now you're millennial. Okay,
DoD you know from Baby Boom merchant millennial and up
here telling us how to do it. All right, I
got you. I'll get there. I'll get there. Thank you
so much for being on Naked Sports. I appreciate you,
(56:15):
my friend, so I love you and I'll talk to
you soon, all right.
Speaker 4 (56:18):
Always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Kerry Champion,
produced by Jock Vis Thomas, sound design and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia.
Speaks to the planet. I'll go by the name of
Charlamagne of God and guess what, I can't wait to
see y'all at the third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival.
That's right, We're coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April
twenty six at Poeman Yards and it's hosted by none
other than Decisions, Decisions, MANDYB and Weezy. Okay, we got
the R and B Money podcast with taking Jay Valentine.
We got the Women of All Podcasts with Sarah Jake Roberts,
(00:22):
we got Good Mom's Bad Choices. Carrie Champion will be
there with her next sports podcast, and the Trap Nerds
podcast with more to be announced. And of course it's
bigger than podcasts. We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with
black owned businesses, plus the food truck court to keep
you fed while you visit us. All right, listen, you
don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your
tickets now at Black Effect dot Com Flash Podcast Festival.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what we've.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Been trying to get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
From the stadiums where athlete to break barriers and set records.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Catlin Clark broke the all time single game assist record.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey, everybody, welcome to Naked Sports.
(01:44):
Today's podcast is with one of my faves, Jammel Hill.
No surprise there, but what was interesting was that I
called her and I said, I want to just.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Do a recap.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I want to do a recap of the Final Four,
which is more about women's college basketball the season at large.
And I also because we haven't had an opportunity to
talk about this the way I wanted to. I wanted
to talk about Steven A versus Lebron. It may be
old news, but the way in which I wanted to
discuss this with her it's just about our obligation as journalist. Oftentimes,
(02:22):
Stephen A said something that I thought was really interesting.
Oftentimes journalists don't report everything that they know, and they shouldn't.
Sometimes there's just no benefit to doing that. But the
case is also true for athletes who know things about journalists.
Sometimes you know things about people who cover you that
you don't often talk about as well. And to me,
(02:46):
in today's age where everybody wants information and everybody loves
the mess, it's really difficult not and sometimes not necessarily difficult,
but it's really hard not to get caught up in
the mess because it's so tempting to go there.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It just is.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So we get into that conversation. But as we begin
to record this podcast, they fired the GM and the
head coach of the Denver Nuggets, and I was like,
I guess if we can't get along, everybody gotta go.
Nobody's safe. This is on the heels of the Memphis
coach being fired, Luca being traded, and my thought process was,
(03:23):
we live in a world today where nobody is safe.
I'm talking about your job, my job. As we can see,
they're coming for government jobs. I'm watching people who do
what I do for a living. If they go to
if they get too far into the DEI and the
criticism of the current administration, they're losing their jobs. And
we live in a world, quite frankly, where I just believe,
(03:45):
no matter what your profession is, nobody's safe. We have
the great Jamel Hill on the podcast and we begin
with a day of firings.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Jamil, so listen breaking news as we are recording this podcast.
I just want to get your first thoughts, first, blush thoughts.
The Dinner Nuggets have fired Mike Malone just a couple
of years removed after he brought them a championship.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Is that too soon?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
It feels a little premature, I'll say that especially.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I mean the playoffs are about to start.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And when it happened, I was actually texting with a
friend of mine who covers the league. And as soon
as it crossed as soon as Sham's reported it or
as a Shams I think it might be Shams.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
As soon as he.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Reported it, I texted my buddy and I was just like, Yo,
what's up with this? And at least the little bit
of inside he was able to give me was there's
always been beef between Mike Malone and the GM Calvin Booth,
so maybe it was a situation.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, parents do this with siblings.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It's like they sick of y'all both fighting, so they're like, okay, both,
y'all want punishment.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Since y'all can't figure out who's right who's wrong, y'all.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Can't get along, and instead of being on punishment, it
led to a permanent punishment that they both got fired.
So the GM and the coach both gone, and apparently
they had not spoken in some time and their relationship
was not very good. It just is The timing of
this is just so strange because the playoffs are about
to start, and I realized lately the Nuggets haven't played great,
(05:15):
but it just seemed like y'all couldn't wait a second,
like maybe they just maybe they feel like they have
what they need right now in both the players and
the remaining coaches that are on the bench.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It had to be to the point where it was
catastrophic in the simple sense that they just could not bear.
They couldn't wait till the end of the season. They
couldn't wait for this playoff push because am I wrong
or the Nuggets. They are in the playoffs, are they not?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they're the playoffs and they're a
team I think. I mean, you have a cluster of
teams that are kind of right around the same level.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Some are separating themselves a little bit.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think your Los Angeles Lakers are starting to separate
themselves a little bit. Oklahoma City and Houston, I think
have sort of been separating themselves all see, and they
have a longer track record with it. But you have
a cluster of teams that are around the same and
I think a lot of people circle Denver as a
potentially dangerous team because they have the experience they have.
You know, some would say the best player in the
(06:11):
world and Yokic, but it just seems strange. But we've
seen some of that during this NBA season. I mean,
Memphis fired their coach a couple of weeks ago, so well,
I guess everybody is like Craig got caught stealing boxers
trying to build a clubhouse, so.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
They getting fired on the day off, day off, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But this leads to a bigger issue that I wanted
to talk about, among various things. As we live in
this intersection of sports culture and politics. No one and
what I have found out, and this goes across our
board all industries, but more specifically in the NBA sports,
no one is safe. Once Luca was traded, I was like, Oh,
(06:51):
ain't nobody safe?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
We safe? We safe?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We ain't safe because it just didn't make sense to me.
And I feel like right now, what we're seeing and
I could be taking two different instances, maybe three different
instances and their timing, uh, and making more out of it,
but it feels like to me that nothing is guaranteed
unless maybe your name is Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James. Right,
there are very few people who have played in this
(07:16):
league where I felt they were like, there's just no
way that could happen to me.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Maybe should killed you.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
But even then, listen, what it uh? What's the old song?
These holes ain't loyal?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
I mean, like it's just so loyal like old. This
is sports.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
This is a transactional business.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
By nature is performance based, and that in that performance
doesn't always have to be Your performance could actually be fine,
but they have there's always other factors that contribute to
some of these you know, moves that are being made
with Luca.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
I feel like we still don't know the full story.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories that have
floated around about, you know, ownership of wanting to build
a new arena with a casino facing some political blockades
there in Dallas, and that was why they did it,
because this is really about them trying to mastermind their
way to Las Vegas that we all know they want
(08:17):
an NBA team, Or is.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
It about the fact that they felt.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Giving Luca the kind of money he's going to command
was a mistake because he is not the most conditioned
athlete to athlete at times, the discipline they're worried about,
you know, just sort of other factors. I mean, I
don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of
that story. But yes, in sports, especially as we see
(08:44):
more and more money being invested, the salaries are rising,
They're only going to get higher. I think that's going
to make people not as patient and the demand of
what that player or coach is supposed to do is
only going to go up.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
So a lot of ownership groups are thinking.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
A lot of people in charge and decision makers there,
I think their thought process is not just what have
you done for me lately?
Speaker 4 (09:09):
I think it is like if we don't see.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
An immediate ROI return on our investment, you here, and
however they're able to, you know, sort of put what
that investment is in perspective.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It's just it's the nature of the game now.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
And that's for everything.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Though. I just feel like in the world, the businesses
are changing right in front of our eyes. Your position,
where you thought was what your job was, is something
totally different. I have never seen more of a hostage
situation than Jason Kidds sitting with the GM of the
Dallas Mavericks pretending like he was all in on this deal.
(09:43):
I was just like, this is not happening. Was it
the GM or the president? What's o boy's name?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Nico? Who I know?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And Nico's a good dude, man. I feel so bad,
or because he is.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Just public enemy number one in Dallas.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Right now speaking of ain safe.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Of course he is right, yeah, he is.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And I'm sure he was well aware that this is
part of what comes with that job, is that you're
gonna sometimes make unpopular decisions. Didn't expect him to make
one this deeply unpopular but hey, it is what it is.
And now the Dallas fans are going to have to
suffer through seeing the Lakers as they kind of feel
like they're rounding in the form. And if the Lakers,
(10:23):
if they make any kind of deep run in the playoffs, Man,
those Mavericks fans are going to.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Be beyond them.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
They're already mad, right, they beyond They already upset it.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Then they got hit with the fact that I believe.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Ticket prices are going up next year. Man, they had
his fish greasing.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, that just isn't well.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Changing time to be a Mavericks fan.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I cannot wait for the thirty for thirty, I can't
wait for the real story to come out. You know,
one of the reasons why I wanted you on here
is because I wanted to just talk about what had
been going on in our universe. And you and I
both work with the gentleman by the name of Stephen A. Smith,
and I hosted.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Ah God, I know where this is going. Where is
this going?
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Where we go?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Where we want to ask me about this presidency?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Well, are you about to? Okay, go ahead, Carrie, ask
your question?
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Do you not want me to ask you a question?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Ask me.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You know, I don't. I'm scared I will all the smoke.
You know, go ahead, ask me, ask me.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So let's let's just take it a few a few
minutes back, a couple of weeks ago, well even a
few weeks ago, steven A was getting into it with
this player because his name is Lebron James.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Have you heard of him?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I have, I'm familiar.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Okay, So Lebron James went up to steven A at
a game and basically say, keep my son's name out
of your mouth. Uh, and Lebron walked away. What Lebron
did was very intentional because he did it while steven
A was courtsied. On the day that his one hundred
million dollar deal was signed and delivered and made known
(11:59):
to the public. Stephene was sitting next to the president
of wm E William Moore's endeavor agency.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
His agency and some.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Other well known notables were within earshot of said don't
keep my son's name out of your mouth, back and forth.
Steven A golees on TV talks about it the next day.
He says he doesn't want to address it. We all
know that's not true, but since it was caught on camera,
he thought he'd just go ahead and let us in
on it, you know. And it was this back and forth,
(12:29):
back and forth, back and forth, and at the end
of the day, somehow we got into the conversation of
whether or not Lebron James attended Kobe Bryant's funeral, and
you and I talked about that offline, but for me,
that got into some weird territory of disrespectful, uncomfortable and
(12:52):
why is this even relevant right now? How'd you feel
about I don't care about the back and forth, whether
he was wrong or right. Stephen's job is to criticize,
is to critique, is to analyze. He gets paid to
talk about people who play basketball.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
And if Lebron James' son, Bronnie, wasn't playing, we also
be it. But then it went into whether or not
Lebron was a good father.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
But then it escalated into something. I think that both
of these men are probably disappointed in themselves, if you certainly,
you know, if you take a look back, I think
they're probably both very disappointed in how they handle this,
you think, because.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I don't get that impression.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
I gotta be honest, like, I think they're perfectly fine
with how they.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Handle it, Are you serious? I do, Like, I don't.
I don't think they have any regrets.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
I mean, certainly Lebron does it because as far as
he's concerned, he was just standing up.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
For his him and his you know, Ian Mines Mar
He's concerned.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, that's that's how he sees That's how he saw that,
and he's he's He repeated that when he went on
the Pat McAfee show.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
What I would say.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Is I think once stephen A, I got uncomfort, you know,
and I this, and I approached this as a career journalist,
been in the game decades now, I'm old, and I
just yeah, right, I was like, I'm old the same, same,
And I realize when you're not in the thick of it,
(14:15):
you probably have the benefit of being able to assess
it a little less emotionally because it's not my name
out there.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I'm not the one being confronted by NBA player. So
and I'm not going to pretend like I don't have
petty levers because there's some people that.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Roll up on me and I it might be about something, right,
So I understand that we all don't get the benefit
of reacting with our best you know, sort of with
our best mature responses.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I get that, But when he brought up.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
The funeral pard, I was like, I don't know if
I could go there, and I don't know if it
was befitting of him to do that, because one you're
talking about somebody who's.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
No longer here.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Two you're also then we're getting into questions of character
because him calling him out about the funeral then saying
that he wasn't there with d Wade's Hall of Fame announcement.
Let's be real, what that really was You basically saying
Lebron is a phony and a shitty friend.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
That's what your saying.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That's what you're telling people, right, So then we get
into a whole nother territory. Were you coming at somebody
over how they have presented themselves and how they deal
with their personal relationships. And I would be wildly uncomfortable
going there, And I thought it was not a good
(15:31):
moment for Steven Asmith, like, I gotta be honest, I
didn't really And once he brought that up, then suddenly
the focus.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Becomes, well did he go to the funeral, And then.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
We have this whole investigative Twitter detectives out, like everybody like,
did he people pulling footage?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I saw this one piece of footage where when Diana
Tarassi when she was Pablo it Pablo, Yes, our former
colleague Pablo Torri went. He went all dateline on it, okay,
and I'm like, man, like, how did we kind of
get here? And I guess you know, I live in LA,
(16:11):
You're from La.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
You know this the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Levels of grief people still feel about Kobe not being here.
I was like, man, I just would not have been
comfortable going there. So that everybody's different. I'm not here
to judge anybody's professional ethics, but I personally was not
comfortable watching this all unfold.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I was not only was I uncomfortable when Pablo posted that,
I you know, and it's not for me to criticize
other colleagues.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
I just don't do it. I don't think there's any
real gain.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And I've done it several times, maybe three times in
the past, and I thought, well, maybe I should have
thought twice about what I said, but I immediately posted on that.
I said enough, this man is dead. Let him rest
in peace. This has gone beyond what's going on with
Stephen ayans and and Lebron. You're talking about a grieving
(17:05):
wife widow. You're talking about kids who are very well
aware of what's being said about their father, and and
and quite frankly, this has nothing to do with where
we started.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
The argument has been lost.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
We've jumped the shark, as they say, like, this is
what is this we're talking about now?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
And I know you're saying it's alluding to.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
His character, But I don't think and I said this
on my show, I don't think any any one of
them should play the I know who you are a game.
I know what you.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I know who people, I know what people think about
you game.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Nobody is without some books, and no one is perfect.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
So I don't I don't want to know about their
personal lives.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I don't want to know about their character off camera
or off court that should not be made public knowledge.
There is something about the level of dis aggression that
I think we all need to keep to maintain some
maintain some level of professionalism.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
And I was getting uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I was like, this is getting into territory that might
end up in a space where we know too much
about these men that we don't even need to know
about them.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
And I know that's so high brow because people live. No,
I mean, but.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
I'm not trying to.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I'm kind of with you because look, Harry, I mean,
if you and I wanted to tell it, we could
tell it. Yet out I mean if we if we
wanted to tell it, we could tell it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Right, we just crossed my legs.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Now you get nervous, like we all.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Have something to say about everyone in this business and
there's just no need.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
There's just no need.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And it is it because I don't think any of
us would feel comfortable if that spotlight came in our direction, correct, right,
the real the one that's showing all the skeletal bones.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, so the skeletal bones go ahead, doctor hill Wallace.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
No, we we would not want that spotlight. And so.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
There was something that Steven A said in one of
his many responses, and that is true. Is that a
lot of times us as journalists, we the things we
don't report, the things we don't say. It's significant because
there's a lot of stuff that we could say that
we do not say. And I think most of us
are mature enough to not say those things because we
(19:26):
know we're not perfect. And we know that a lot
of times while our professional careers, we may feel like, okay,
it would have it would stand up to some scrutiny,
but we done all made some mistakes shooting all it
is don't nobody else know about for sure, right, And
so because of.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
That, yes, it is got to be some honor among thieves.
It's there's got to be some honor among thieves.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It's gotta be we we gotta we gotta uphold certain
tenets of this game, all right, And we can't be
out here just on focks like hey, ay man, like
you know that ain't cool.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
We can't be out here wildly snitching on folks because
it's not cool because I don't want nobody to snitch
on me, like you know what I mean, Like I'm
all set like not that anything. And and by the way,
there are levels, right, I'm sure the level of things
that we're talking about don't match other levels of what
people have to hide. But there's just no point. And
it was just so disrespectful on so many levels to
(20:30):
my favorite player of all time. And this is an
emotional take. Kobe would if he were here and anybody
said anything of that nature, if he's watching from heaven
or wherever he may be, wherever people think he may be,
who knows whatever.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
My point being is that he would be like, is
this what we're doing?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Is this the level that we've devolved to that you
all are out here? There are And by the way,
he's had some you know, may he recipes, he had
some moments where I'm sure he wished he could take
things back, things that he had said. But at the
end of the day, we just don't need to get
into that game. And then now we find ourselves. Now
we find ourselves in this moment where and I think
(21:05):
maybe did the NBA need that storyline because there was
nothing happening? People are so interested now? And who said because,
let me tell you, it felt boring. It felt like
there was nothing to talk about. Now I got people like, well,
what's going on with you know what I mean? People
not interested all of a sudden and not wild. It's
wild to me.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So this is a discussion that I had on YouTube.
Is that?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And I see this a lot when it comes to
wider discussion about what we consume as a public. Everybody
out here likes to act like or pretend like they
all watching PBS all the time. We all out here
watching documentaries and only highbrow entertainment. It's like people, y'all
live for the mess. And I wish y'all stop lying
(21:51):
and saying we just want to hear about basketball. If
you wanted to just hear about basketball.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Steven A. Smith wouldn't exist. And it's like, not on
this status level.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
And I find this especially true among male sports fans
who act like Dane as messy as everybody else. I'm like,
y'all be messy. Okay, let's see, you know. I quickly
brought up, as this was going back and forth that
conversation we were having about the w n b A
(22:25):
when it came to Caitlyn Clark and pettiness, all these
male sports broadcasting y'all women so petty, blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I rest my case. That's all I got to say.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
You're on her my case, you're on her. She rests
her case, your honor. You ain't ever lie friend.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Exhibit A, B C D E F G H I
j K elemental he right there.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I said, Look, this is gonna be wildly unpopped there.
If men are the messiest, they love the mess. They
stay in the mess with you and I on some
private group tech talked about the biggest gossips.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
We know.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's a man ain't it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's like, what what?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
What?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
What are we doing here? We're gonna take a quick
break because we have to pay some bills. We'll be
right back in just a few moments. You bring up
Caitlin Clark, which brings me to my next topic, which
is great.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
It's almost as if we practice this.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I had today released on my podcast, I this this
podcast that I most recently dropped. I just wanted to
give a little love uh to Paige Becker's and we
have talked about page uh you know, on camera off camera,
her skill set, the season that she was able to
have this year, her her re entry, if you will,
(23:54):
back into the stratosphere of being one of the greatest
players in college uh in college ball after she was injured,
because it took some time for her to come back.
So there are two things that I'm thinking that are
great here. One, I get encouraged when I think about
how I've watched her story take shape and how it
ultimately ended in terms of her college career winning a championship.
(24:16):
Because I was really, really sad for Juju. It really
bummed me out. I was really disheartened at the fact
that she had tour a cl and I'm like, good grief,
how long is that gonna take?
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Two seasons?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
But we've seen, we've seen and living proof someone who
was badly injured came back, found their way, won a championship,
and did great things for college ball women's sports in general.
I hope the same is true for Juju because we
saw it with Pagebeckers. But I talked about just her background,
and I don't think a lot of people knew who
she was or how she was raised, and just let's
(24:50):
just take a moment to talk about. To me, what
I see is someone who did not receive the same
amount of attention as a Caitlyn Clark did. And now
there are these conversations about the reason why she didn't
receive she being Pagebeckers didn't receive the same amount of
tension that Caitlyn Clark did.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Was one.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Caitlyn Clark is a better player. That's the first thing
that people are saying. And then the second thing is
there's a group of people who were saying because her
bonus mom, her stepmom, whatever, you would like to call
it is black. And she was very well aware or
very familiar with the black community, and and and always
spoke up for black women that the media decided to
(25:31):
sideline her.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
What say h Jamal?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
First of all, we refer to her in our community
as Deaconesscheckers. Okay, because Page be preaching, she do she be.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Governed with that guy?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Tell you where you definitely were hello, because she was like,
over here we serve our strength is in the Lord.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
I was like, go ahead, over here, our strength is No.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Page is like Marvin saff You know what I'm saying.
She coming, She is coming with it all right?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Is she closing the doors? Is she closing the doors
of the church closer? So I think Page will let
you free.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But yes, Paige, w I need to buy my my
old my old school.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Christians know about that one.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
But but no, I do think some of it is
the fact that you know, Paige as a freshman one
National Player of the Year, she was certainly on a
certain trajectory in terms of stardom in the league and
or in college ball rather and she you know, it
was derailed by injuries, as you pointed out.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
But I think you know Caitlyn Clark playing styles matter
to people.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
And when you think about the game that today's fan
is accustomed to seeing, they are used to seeing a
Steph Curry esque game from guards, you know, launching the
long shots. You know, this high level of excitement that
I think Caitlyn Clark brought.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Sports is about performance, but it is also about narratives.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I think that there was an underdog element to Kaitlyn Clark,
even though she was a five star recruit. I mean
like she was somebody that a lot of schools wanted, Okay,
and she chose to go to Iowa, and I think
for a lot of people that mattered the fact that Iowa,
though they do have a women's basketball legacy, it's not
the traditional one that we're accustomed to hearing about.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
So she's paid for a.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
School that is not regularly regularly on the women's college
basketball map. People look at Yukon as they should. It's
true blue blood. They just won a twelfth championship, so
there's this expectation that anybody there is great. So to
some degree, the greatness of when you're playing for Yukon
is frankly probably looked at as water is wet. I
(27:44):
don't think it's as I don't think it's it's celebrated,
but not in not like a novelty. Caitlyn Clark has
been treated like a novelty, and so she has a
different narrative than Paige Beckers. Now, is there something to
this fact that Paige Becker's very early when she received
an sp she made that a tribute to black women
(28:06):
and about how she has learned from them, about how
they deserve more attention. She understood the roots of the game,
and there are we would be lying to ourselves if
we said, in our very racialized society that these alliances
don't impact how people see people. And I think you
(28:28):
can tell in the way Page plays the game, in
her demeanor, the fact that, as you pointed out, she
has a black step mother, black step brothers, that that
in itself for some people, not saying everybody because people
get all crazy and think I'm saying this in totality,
is that for some people.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
That was.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I don't want to say disqualifying, but they were like, eh,
I don't know I feel about that right, And so
I do think there's some of that that is there.
But I also believe that this is mostly about different
playing styles, and people have tried to sort of compare them,
(29:13):
and I was like, they're just even though they both
are guards, they're just they're very different in terms of
what their physical gifts are, what their basketball gifts actually are,
and so so yeah, I mean, I think it was
a lot of it was a mixture of those elements.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
But the overwhelming, the overwhelming thought from if I can,
if I can, I don't know suggest what you're saying
is that Caitlyn has a much more electric playing style
that makes people want to that makes her more mainstream friendly.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, And I think that's correct. I think it does
make her more mainstream friendly. And this is not a
and this is not a criticism of Caitlyn Clark. She
plays how she plays, and I think with her representing Iowa,
that's another big part. This is Middle America, and there
is a level of fixation on who medical America is.
(30:06):
There's a level of sort of quaintness and you know,
that's real America, that sort of thing, that kind of
engine that is behind Caitlyn Clark in a very different way.
But I think to some degree, we said this about
Juju as well, you know, prior to her injury, I mean,
the scoring pace that she was on is that she
(30:28):
would be threatening that all time scoring record. I mean,
she broke Kaitlyn color Cart's freshman scoring record already, and
so this was just her second season and she was
THEMN near average thirty a game. I don't know if
she would have gotten there, but she would have come
well within reach, to the point where it might have
been a real pursuit. And a lot of us were wondering, like, well,
when Juju gets close, if she's within earshot, if it
(30:51):
looks like she might break this record, will there be
the same level of media attention?
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And there won't be.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
And I knew that there wouldn't be, even though Juju
is a star and you already know how La treats
you know, her brilliance is like she got celebrities at
her game all the time, right, Like this is this
is not new, This is not a new space for
Juju to be in. But I do think what does
often happen? And people can debate me. I'm sure they will.
(31:19):
I'm sure they'll call me all the usual names they.
Speaker 6 (31:21):
Call me, but the kind important I gotta tell myself
this you is impot I is employ.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
But the reality is that when it comes to sports,
and especially when it comes to back basketball, I think
that there is sometimes a well, a good black player
is supposed to play like that. Like you know, what
I'm saying is that the part of the net we
have a novelty element in us. And that's as I say,
(31:55):
all players like of course everybody loves Cheryl Miller.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
I could go through maya more people ofppreciate it.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That I'm not saying that they didn't, but I do
think that there are different expectations for great black players,
and there are when we have someone white who is
also great. There's a different kind of fixation with white
players because even though in women's college basketball, I don't
think black players make up the majority of women's college basketball.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
They don't.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I think that's it's just under yeah, there's just under
fifty percent. So even though we have seen white girls
dominate before and they have received the justified attention, there
is a little extra put on it because there is
this idea that this is a space where black athletes dominate.
So if a white girl is able to dominate in
(32:44):
this space, that is special. That is different, and I
think the public has to be honest about sometimes how
they see and kind of play into these racial.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Narratives, you know, So we just have to be honest it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, I do believe, and I don't think it's necessarily
because she she being Pagebeckers. Okay, So what I want
to just make sure I'm digesting what you're saying. Where
Kaitlyn's entire origin story is very Middle America, and in
it was very mainstream in terms of how they can
(33:23):
get on board the way she plays the game, where
she comes from her being a Catholic, a heterosexual, to
our knowledge, white woman out here living her life doing
the things that she wants to do playing basketball. Not
that that has never happened before, but it was the
way in which she was playing basketball. But I also
believe that the Angel Reson narrative also helped, not that
it propelled to.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
The next I didn't mean to dismiss that part, and
you're correct, and I it wasn't she got a rival,
And I would say, and it was funny because like
I recently had the same conversation prior to her injury
about Juju about how like Juju really needs a rival, right.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
People have such back on that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Like I was on a just side note, I did
the podcast with Tarika and Cheryl Swoops, the great Cheryl Swoops,
and they were like, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
They they disagreed, and I.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Was like, I think Juju needs a rival to make
the story interesting. And her rival isn't Paige Becker's, but
she needed a rival, or she needs one.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I think, yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
I mean, look, we saw this.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Maybe it didn't blast off to the degree obviously it
didn't of Angel Reese, but when Page and Caitlin met
each other last year in the NCAA tournament that did
record numbers too. A lot of it is because people
are like, ooh, I mean you know again, be honest.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
It was like, oh, this was the original white girl
four years ago. Here's the new white girl. We got.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
We got us ourselves a battle, right, And so I
think these narratives do sell, you know, games, like part
of the reason why even though we knew the championship
game between South Carolina and Yukon wasn't gonna be what
it was last year, but it's it's a great number
of an absent of Kaitlyn Clark because you have the
(35:04):
narrative of Dawn Stay representing sort of the new Yukon
if you will, you know, with the number of championships
she's won and Yukon trying to get back. Like people
were loving that narrative right or even last year when
it was Kaitlyn Clark against an undefeated South Carolina team,
like that was something juicy.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Like people dig into those kind of narratives, So.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
You need they'd like to see athletes and teams that
people love. They love to see them go against some
level of inertia. They love this, like we need to
see the athlete get to the mountaintop and they gotta
climb up hill and they gotta walk through snow and
they got to get it out the mud and they
gotta finally get there and it makes us appreciate their
journey so much more.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
So, Yeah, we kind of need to see that.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
So to your point, Kaitlyn Clark was putting up hella
numbers freshman year, hella numbers sophomore year. But the point
of explosion was angel Reaes taught her and then then
suddenly every single game needs two play now leading into the.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
W A b A became prime time appointment.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Dealing and to your point, you believe if Juju when
she comes back, had had a rival h that met
her at that same level, that would provide a much
more explosive storyline around who Juju is and whomever that
ex player would be.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yes, I do, and it helps if it's some spice
to it, you know, I saying it helps, Like if
it's because she's like a little elbow, Yeah, it helps.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Juju's very very mid like you don't see she displays
the game. It's that one thing I do what I
what I see in her. I also I saw in
Caitlyn Clark as a college player, was like I trash,
but I really am here just the ball, Like I'm
just here to play that other stuff I'm not really
consumed with. But I'm gonna let you know I'm better
than you. Like when we went to the UCLA and
(36:57):
USC game that I got as court sight tickets to
that you totally decided where you want to just speak
to everybody on the USC side, even.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Though u c l A had provided you.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
UCLA had provided you with said tickets through wah and
you walking up there talking to USC people.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I wouldn't let y'all know I had to pull.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I had to.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
I had to pull my girls.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
I was like, you, really, you've been real disrespectful. You
treat your lady wrong. Right now.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
If we was in a relationship, Jamal, it'd be over
you lucky you married me. I would have broke up
with you, you lucky, because you you did your girl dirty.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
But Friday night I got to fight the po.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
I loved you every night.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
But what I what I realized was that when we
were clearly, as in UCLA, going to lose the game,
Juju let us know. She let all the fans know
as we were yelling and screams, she let'n go to
this side right here and let y'all know y'all lost
ball this way.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
She was like ball this way.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I was like, gotcha, I hear you. We lost.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
And I love that because it was such a quiet
confidence that I also think Caitlyn plays with. However, however,
I will say this, you talk about that inertia. What
Page Beckers in Yukon did was very special. But did
you notice the way those girls was playing? And I
am old enough to remember when Gino Arima, the Great
(38:11):
Gino Arima, who now has twelve championships, jumped on a
microphone after Don Staley and Crewe beat down his team
and said, I don't know what that was. That wasn't basketball,
referring to the fact that don Staley and her.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Players played too tough to aggressive.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
It was some sort of basketball that this legend in
Gino Arima was unfamiliar with and he couldn't understand what
the game was doing. Fast forward to twenty twenty four
in Tampa. I watched them girls get after it. His
team led by his page Beckers. Those girls was playing
the most aggressive ball that I have ever seen Yukon
(38:51):
play with in the last few years, and it won
them that chip. And it's so interesting how he complained
about don Staley and Crue and the way her team played,
but he definitely took a page out of her book
to learn how to win.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, I mean again, this is part of that mountaintop
that climb uphill that we see. I mean, it's kind
of weird to look at U kind in any kind
of underdog role given what their history is. But they
came out there and played like they had something to lose.
I mean, not that they have something to lose, but
they something to prove excuse me.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
They came out there like they had something to prove.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
They wanted to prove we could be physical, we could
be tough, and they were playing with an edge like
we ain't going home without this championship, period.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
And you could tell that from the start of the game.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
And I've never seen a Don Stay coach team or
it's been a long time, I'll say long team say never.
It's been a very long time since I've seen a
Don Stay team kind of shook. They were shook, they
were discombobulated. They didn't know, they had no answer for anything.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yu Kin did asy fudd.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
She came out there with bad intentions, like the whole game.
I was like, oh, this one is not playing you
know what I'm saying. She spential, So yeah, I mean
she she was incredible, and as was Sarah Strong.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Obviously who Alison Feaster that's her daughter, which I had
no idea.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
This just standing, mom, is Alison Feaster with the Celtics.
Did you know that? No? You didn't see that post?
She was like I missed it.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
I was like, you raised a special one. She is special,
but going so let me let.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Me tell you.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I remember Alison Feaster in college and she I remember
her when she played in college and her team she
played for Harvard. I believe right, and she I believe
it's I'm pretty sure it's still true. The only time
in the men's and women's tournament were sixteen b to one,
they'd be number one Stanford and Stanford had some injuries.
That was you know, they were a little depleted for sure,
(40:52):
but like nobody thought that they were gonna beat Stanford.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And by the way, she still has a post successful career.
They show pictures of her when she was playing in
the league and she was playing college ball with her daughter,
and I was like her daughter who we are now watching.
And then at the end of the championship game, when
they went to Sarah Seawan to have some comments, she
was just like and I just you know, we did
what we had to do. I was like, Oh, she
about her business. I'm a woman, a few words, I'm
(41:16):
not about to be up here, and just like I
just want to play. She's just a freshman. It was
so it was special. It's just it's a very special
time in women's sports. And I hope everyone can connect
the dots and see the storylines and understand where we
were and where we are and what is to come.
I think that I was. I was genuinely disappointed and
said my team did not win, but I was glad
(41:37):
that they got the breaks beat off of them by
the team that ultimately became the champion. So maybe maybe
it to somebody else now. I was like, Okay, so
that's just what they came to do. You're absolutely right,
and they didn't kind of, they didn't cut down the
nets during the Elite Eight because they said that's not
what they came to celebrate. And they waited. I remember
that was one big thing. They were like, you didn't
cut down the nets like everybody else did when you
made it to the final four. They were like, this
(41:59):
is not the one or waiting for the one, and
they did have something to prove, and I felt like
it was a very special storyline for Paige Becker's shout
out to UCLA. Though we're gonna take a quick break
because we have to pay some bills. We'll be right
back in just a few moments. UCLA. Let's talk about
(42:23):
them for a minute. Corey Close is the coach.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Say it three times fast.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
She's been at that program, She's taken that program to
the final four or four times. She's probably the longest
tenured coach that they've had. And I just want to say,
playing in Westwood under the shadow of John Wooden is
not easy to do one even if you are ahead
of the men's program, right, but being head of the
women's program, you have always been the afterthought the other
(42:51):
And for her to really figure it out, because I
think she had a lot of pressure on her this
year to be popular, to do more social media, to
do all the things that now don't really include coaching,
which is why this is a young man and young
women's game. Coaches are jumping out of this league because
are out of college ball because it's so difficult to coach.
You are recruiting your players consistently while they're playing on
(43:14):
the roster. You know, right now, we've seen it a
few teams with it. No one's coming back an entire roster.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Maybe they have two returning players at Notre Dame. Women's
basketball players are leaving and they're going to other places
because they want more money, they want more attention, they
want more social media, right, and it's just hard to
keep the main thing the main thing. So I take
a few minutes out to say to coach Clothes, who's
figuring it out?
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Because she's an old school coach.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Right, she's her job is changing right before her eyes,
much like our job is changing right before our eyes,
and we're learning to figure it out in real time.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
So love to her, Love to my bruins. Tough, tough loss.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I was very disappointed, but I thank you Jamal for
being some sort of support with your trade said.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
They support you all.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
It's never that said, were you went over, hugged you whatever.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, the the USC they looked out when the state
came to play and we got the breaks beat off
us and uh no, it was actually a somewhat of
a close game, but a little bit of a close game.
But uh no, listen, I UCLA has a lot to
be proud of this season, and now this is part
of their journey because I think you guys got everybody
(44:25):
coming back all right, just about yeah, you get just
you got just about everybody coming back. They're not gonna
forget this experience, and I think that's a good thing. Yeah,
now they know what it feels like, and now you
know they what you guys were number one this season
I mean you you checked a lot of milestones and
to me, where you really showed your character because after
(44:47):
that game we went to where you all got the
breaks read off you by USC. You come back in
the Big ten tournament and you return to favor and
when you all played them that second played them again,
I should say that third time it would be uk't
y'all came out there with bad.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Attentions and I just like to see that.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
To me, Lauren, look, Laura Bett should touch the ball
seventy two times a game, like she's just absolutely should
you see how you how South Carolina used Carmela Cardosa.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
They need to do that with Laura Betts.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
It's like everything and I'm not saying that they don't,
but there are definitely times and stretches in the game.
I greet forget about her. I'm like, yo, she needs
to be out there damn near averaging forty.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Also though she has the big woman problem, the big
girl problem, the shack problem, that the refs aren't calling,
they're they're dragging her. Did they triple team in her?
They doing all the things that she doesn't get a
lot of calls. She definitely didn't get a lot of
calls in that final four game against Connecticut, and they
were playing very aggressive, very physically, which is what they
should do, very physical.
Speaker 5 (45:45):
But I look, I get it.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
She I think if I you know, everybody's a coach,
a Monday morning quarterback. I think that it's just the toughness.
It's just that mental fortitude that that that that switch
that needs to be turned on. Like they they're going
to dou w, they're going to triple. You're not going
to get the call. You got to get back on defense.
You're not gonna make the shot. You got to get
back on defense. You got to bully your way in there.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And I think I think that bully mentality helps, Like
you know, I you know, I'll take the page out
of our art.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
We just talked about our colleague Stephen A.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
Smith.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
He would always be like, y'all need a goon. Y'all
need somebody to give away five files, y'all need a goon.
And I was like, we need a goon, We need
to we need a goon, and for lack of a
better term, that's what we need. So shout out to UCLA.
Very proud of y'all positions changing. We are our last
topic because we don't hit fifteen of them. Positions changing
(46:36):
as a journalist, and I've had this conversation with fellow
journalist Kelly Carter and other people in the world shout
out to our girl, Kelly, your best friend, our jobs
as journal as a journalist, it's changing. It doesn't mean
the foundation of what we do has changed. Like we
are obligated to speak truth to power. We are obligated
to be truthful, but the medium in which we are
(46:59):
doing it, or that we're allowed to do it on
for that matter, seems to be going away. Legacy media
seems to be falling apart left and right. I don't
think legacy media will last.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I don't want to be destructive, but five years, I'd
be surprised to see where legacy media is in five years,
more specifically black legendary. You know, anchors and analysts who
do news, not necessarily sports, we're seeing them, you know,
we're seeing We're seeing what happens when you speak truth
to power on a legacy outlet like an MSNBC. Our
(47:33):
friend Joy Read was fired for or let go rather
for whatever reasons. Right, you can name a list before
that it was Don Lemon, and we can go on
and go on and go on. Where do you see
journalism and legacy media in the next few years.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
So I do agree.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I agree with you that legacy media has a major problem.
You know, especially, I think there's always going to be
a certain amount of people who do watch legacy media, like,
because you know, as much as people watch things on
their phone, there is a huge contingent of people who
do not actually like to watch things on their phone,
who prefer still that big flat screen TV and being
able to see it, and so just the comfort of
(48:13):
being able to turn into CNN or MSNBC or even
local moves right like, that's a part of legacy media.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
So I think there's going to always be an audience there.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
It's just that the audience is being is getting smaller
and right now, I think the move for most of
us who come from legacy media backgrounds is to do
exactly what Don Lemon has done, is to do what
some of these other conservatives have done, Megan Kelly, all
of those, they've gone independent, that's what they've done. And
(48:43):
you know, I certainly have redirected a lot of my
focus and attention to my YouTube channel, and it is
because that has probably in terms of monetizing, that's probably
the best model.
Speaker 4 (48:54):
Is why a lot of these same people are on substack.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
It's like, now, if you have been in a position
to actually build an audience through like a cmdia, an audience
that you can take with you wherever you go, then
you then have an opportunity to monetize the people that
mess with you.
Speaker 4 (49:10):
And so like that's where it's going.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
It's like, we're going to all just be sort of
independent companies that we're providing a service to people who
care about what we have to say, who care about
the kind of journalism that we care about, and the
kind of reporting and all those other things.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
And it is a new model.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
As you said, the method which we gather information doesn't change,
but we're going to have to become today's journalist has
to be more business minded than probably journalism minded.
Speaker 4 (49:40):
Scary to say, but it's true.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
In order for us to be able to stay in
this space.
Speaker 4 (49:46):
You look at what Roland Martin did. I think that's
probably going to be the model.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Maybe not creating an entire network as he has done,
but he created an independent platform for himself that is
where we have to get to.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
That is head of the games can use it. That's
when he was ahead of the game. And he's always like,
I did it first. We're like, you're right, but the first.
Always we got to the first. I agree with that,
and we all thought, Okay, that's not where we want
to be because it required a little more thought than
we probably had the attention to give. But now we
are required to give it attention and we have to
learn it in real time, in real time. How does
(50:20):
that make you feel tired?
Speaker 5 (50:24):
Let me exhausted.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, if I'm being one hundred percent, is tired is
how it makes me feel. But at the same time,
it's that I've we've had to we think about it.
Over the course of our careers, we've seen our business
change a lot, and we've had to adapt every single time.
When I first got into the business, it was a
(50:47):
panic button. The panic button was already being hit because newspapers,
while they were very profitable, there was a lot of
anxiety over whether or not they would be able to
maintain the level of incredible profit margins have been provided.
There was this transitioning happening where family owned media companies
were then selling out to corporations, and so it was
(51:09):
becoming more corporate owned media instead of family owned media,
and it was a big difference in approach. And when
it became more about prioritizing profit, that's when you saw
the cracks in journalism.
Speaker 4 (51:22):
That's when they started.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
And then it just was accelerated, probably every three to
five years. And when I got to ESPN, the newspaper
culture I've been a part of was really on life support.
And this is in two thousand and six, and so
by the time I left ESPN, you had local papers
that were no longer printing every day of the week.
(51:45):
You had a whole bunch of things that were happening, everything,
you know, getting rid of entire copy, a desk and
editors and all the sorts of things. And it used
to be that newspapers like the LA Times, they covered everything.
They went to the you know, they still do do
the Olympics, but they went to cover major, big sporting
events that didn't always involve LA teams because they felt
(52:07):
like that was part of the coverage.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Now you read a lot of sports sections.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
It's wire copy, right, and so our jobs are constantly changing.
Speaker 4 (52:15):
But the crazy party is our jobs are changing, our.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
Business is shrinking, but the people need the information more
now than they ever have. This is about we have
to be in the mode of wartime journalism. We are
in wartime. We got to be about that. And so
we're just in a interesting crossroads. But people are going
to always need information. They're gonna always need people who
know not to gather it, put it into context, and
(52:39):
can bring some institutional knowledge to it.
Speaker 5 (52:42):
Wartime journalism define that.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
So it's really easy to report under optimal conditions. You know,
it reminds me of when I was when I was
a sideline reporter for a college football season back in
I think this would have been twenty twelve, right, Very
easy to report when it's seventy eighty degrees and you
on the sidelines. So much difficult when the wind is
(53:06):
kicking your ass, your hair look a mess, and your
makeup is running because it is frigid conditions. But that
is when you really prove how much you love this
profession and the mission of it. And so right now,
as there is an assault on history, on truth, on
the ethics that our profession was built on, is when
we need to stand the strongest. We can't be the
(53:27):
ones capitulating in advance. It's never what this was supposed
to be about. Journalism from the very start was always
about disruption, and if you can't disrupt in wartime, you
can't be a journalist.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
It's just that simple.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
So we're in wartime right now, and we will be
under attack more than ever, and it'll be a government lader.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
Attack as it is.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
And so because of this is when I actually think
it's kind of a good thing that so many of
us are branching off and being in it, because.
Speaker 4 (54:01):
I don't know that we need the stress all the
time we listen.
Speaker 3 (54:04):
I love to consistent paycheck like everybody else when it
comes to legacy media, So I'm not denying that part.
But there's a level of stress in this time that
that's gonna come with that I think most of us
probably don't need. And so, yeah, we're gonna be exhausted. Yes,
this new age is gonna require us to do more,
to put out more content, constantly feeding these short attention
(54:27):
spans with what we think is valuable information.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
But we gotta be ready for this wartime. Jamelle Hill
has provided us with the ted talk.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
You take that you run with, that that was so
encouraging to me, friend, because I often say.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
To myself, should I be making candles?
Speaker 4 (54:46):
Now? Should I be putting flowers on bacon?
Speaker 3 (54:52):
Girl?
Speaker 4 (54:53):
The way these tarror's about to hit, I don't know,
could you?
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Because we're gonna all have to learn apparently to churn
butter and be snapping.
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Peas because apparently because apparent.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Going back to they like, yeah, you're gonna have to
go through a little bit of paid I'm like, oh
my god, am I gonna be washing clothes at the river?
Speaker 2 (55:09):
Like yes, yes, get your washboard out. That's where we're
That is where we're headed. I'm gonna be Jesus help us.
Jamel Hill, you are wonderful. Your YouTube pages what so
people can go and listen to it.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
It's called very Simple. It's Jameel Hill.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
And Jamel Hill.
Speaker 4 (55:28):
I T S, I T s. That's right.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
No apostrophy, okay, mine is it's Carrie Champion. I'm sending
people there as well because I just I'm trying to
do what you're doing. Friend, I'm learning these we just
real Auntie trying to go on the live?
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Is this still working? Is this y'all? Can y'all see me?
Speaker 2 (55:46):
Y'all can he Hey, turn this on for your mama.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
Get this right here.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
Okay. That's that's how.
Speaker 5 (55:53):
Don Living first started.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
And now he just live everywhere. He lied from the bathroom,
he lied from a shoe box. He live walking down
the street. He live in the middle of the theater.
I'm like, ah, so you now you now you're millennial. Okay,
DoD you know from Baby Boom merchant millennial and up
here telling us how to do it. All right, I
got you. I'll get there. I'll get there. Thank you
so much for being on Naked Sports. I appreciate you,
(56:15):
my friend, so I love you and I'll talk to
you soon, all right.
Speaker 4 (56:18):
Always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Kerry Champion,
produced by Jock Vis Thomas, sound design and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia.
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