The Dangers of Divorcing a Narcissist with Demetria Graves

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Narcissists are all about winning, which is why divorcing a
narcissist can feel impossible. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism,
I've invited top divorce attorney Demitria Graves to break down
this unfortunate and unique art of war. Unlike Demetria, many

(00:20):
attorneys don't understand the intricacies of dealing with narcissism in
a divorce, like the fact that it's not uncommon for
these proceedings to last longer than the marriages themselves. In
this eye opening conversation, she reveals her pre divorced checklist,
debunks divorce myths and warrens of common mistakes. This is

(00:45):
a must listen for anyone divorcing a narcissist, thinking of
divorcing a narcissist, or even thinking about getting married period.
After all, the best way to learn how to make
it work is from an attorney who spent her career
handling the pitfalls and the landscape of narcissistic marriage and divorce.

(01:06):
If you don't want to go through a grueling experience
of getting out, pay attention to how you come in.
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,

(01:30):
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The
views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast
author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not
represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or
their employees. So, Dmitria, I am so happy to have

(01:54):
you here. Thank you for taking time out of your
busy schedule, intention for inviting me, dmit you there coming
on the show is so important and so compelling. Is
that in my own practice working with survivors of narcissistic abuse,
the issue of divorces, you can imagine, is one of
the primary issues I'm dealing with. It's either people who
are in unhealthy marriages and are thinking of dissolving the marriage,

(02:17):
people who are just coming out making a decision do
I don't tie, and then the people who are already
in the divorce process. You practice in California, I do.
And each state is different in terms of how they
address family law. So the guidance you're going to hear
today is from an attorney who does practice in California.
While some of this may generalize, it's absolutely critical that

(02:38):
anyone listening today's episode seeks out counsel and whatever region
that you live in, state, province, nation, whatever. So, Dimitria,
if you were to put together a pre divorced checklist
for someone who is about to commence a divorce from
a narcissistic person, what are the things that you would recommend?
So Number one that I tell my clients gloves are off,

(03:00):
meaning the narcissistic partner is going to do whatever they can,
say whatever they want to win. So if they can
use your mental health, they're going to do that. If
they can disclose your intimate details of your relationship, they're
going to do that. If there can align with your children,
they're going to do that. So nothing that's going to

(03:21):
be quote unquote fair and it's not going to be amicable.
So you have to prepare for that that all gloves
are off. Anything you shared with your partner, you might
hear it in court. So you have to be prepared
that they're going to say whatever, do whatever because they
want to win. Demitri, how do you prepare people for that,
because that's a lot like what you just said is

(03:42):
not that's not just some little thing off a to
do list, right, that's actually almost changing a worldview. Right.
How do you prepare your clients at that? It's really
hard to do because I've had clients that are attorneys,
that are therapists that work in the court and had
to deal with, oh my god, all of my personal
information is out right, So we have to spend a

(04:03):
lot of time understanding, Okay, this is going to happen,
how are you going to cope? Because unfortunately, I'm licensed
as an attorney, I'm not licensed as a therapist or
to help others kind of deal with the emotional trappings
of their divorce. So I always recommend, especially with narcissistic abusers,
that you have someone a coach, a therapist, or someone

(04:26):
that can help you through your divorce, especially during those
times when you're reading the intimate details of your life
and intimate details that you thought would only be shared
with your partner and it's being used against you. So
the first step of this predivorced checklist is like, be
prepared that the gloves are coming off. The gloves are off,
are off, not coming off. Okay, what would you say,

(04:50):
is are some of the other items on this predivorce
checklist your finances? The narcissistic divorce will cost three to
four times then the average divorce. I've had clients that
were married five years or less spend one hundred thousand
dollars on a divorce and counting, that's twenty thousand dollars
a year for the marriage. Put that in an investment,

(05:10):
you got a better yield on that. Right. It is
very expensive because the narcissistic partner wants to win, so
they're going to file every motion, They're going to do
all the things to win. So you can have a
five year marriage but spend six years in your divorce.
I have so many other questions on that. I'm gonna
keep going on your checklist, and I'm gonna go back

(05:31):
and ask my questions. What else would you put on
this checklist? You have to be careful if you're residing
in the residence at the time of your divorce, right
because then a lot of narcissists know how to bait
you to start making the case for the divorce. And
in California, a restraining order is tied to who gets custody.

(05:52):
So I've seen where a narcissist partner will try to
get the other partner to hit them or to have
these verbal disputes with them to attempt to get a
restraining order, because if there's a restraining order, then the
partner has to leave, not the abuser. Oh, I see.
So you're talking about situations where people are starting the
divorce process but they're still both occupying the marital residence, right,

(06:16):
which is not uncommon in California. It's because it costs
a million dollars the limb. I can tell you as
a psychologist where I have worked with couples where there's
a narcissistic abuse a situation and they don't both leave
the residence. I think that the psychological harm is ten
times worse. Right, And a lot of people still believe,
even though they've experienced the abuse, that there's no way

(06:37):
they will do that to me. There's no way they
would kick me out of the residence. And I'm here
to tell you they do and they will because it's
all about winning. And then I think it's very important,
in addition to having a therapist, to have a support system. Right,
everyone won't understand what you're going through. But again, your
attorney is only equipped to deal with the business of

(06:59):
your divorce. Despite what we tell you, we are not
equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of what you're
going through. And quite honestly, you don't want to pay
us to deal with the emotional that for a fact.
That's just the practical check the checklist, right. The legal

(07:20):
part of this is you have to be prepared that
narcissists tend to hire narcissistic attorneys, Okay, talk more about that.
They choose people that will harass you and your attorney,
that write letters, emails seven pages, ten pages, can be
every day or every other day, extremely condescending and make

(07:42):
you feel like, oh wow, did that happen or did
I say that? Or is this really happening? And so
that is something to prepare for. And if I had
to learn myself how to disengage, how to maneuver a
narcissistic attorney, that was a new phenomenon for me. But
it is very, very real and it is very dangerous. Okay,

(08:02):
So I'm gonna ask you a sort of a procedural question,
since they probably don't have all sit on one website,
narcissistic attorneys for family law, Like, there's not one place
you can find these people. How do they find them?
Did they just interview them and say, oh, you seem
like a jerk, I'm hiring you? Or is a reputation?
I think it's like attracts like right, yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

(08:23):
Tend to go to the people who you're most familiar
with and who feels good to you. It feels gad,
you're right. So if you're a narcissistic and you go
to someone and they say I'm not doing that or
I don't believe in that, or no, we're not going
to do that, you're not going to go with that
person because you want to win and you want to
control the show. So if you can't do that that,
you're not going to select that attorney. Okay, I got

(08:46):
that that. Let's say there's two people in a divorce
and the narcissistic person picks up the phone and inquires
about retaining five or six top divorce attorneys. Right are
those people then? Now? Yet, Well, it depends on how
much information is shared. If you just call and make
an appointment, then no, you didn't share anything that was

(09:08):
important to the case. If you call and pay a
retainer fee to speak to the attorney, and you speak
for an hour on your case, then it's likely that
that attorney can be disqualified. And if you pay a
bigger retainer, yes, then the attorney you'll probably be disqualified.
Is that a thing that ever happens? That a person
who actually is not going to retain X or Y
attorney but wants them not to be retainable as it were,

(09:31):
by the let's call them the non narcissistant partner the
other person. Have you seen that happen? Yes, especially in
small cities because you know, you know who the quote
unquote top attorneys are. So if I disqualify all, let's
say ten attorneys, you have to start going out to
different places to people that are less experienced in those cities.
So that's yes, it is a thing. Okay, all right?

(09:53):
Anything else on this checklist? Oh? Yes, most definitely. And
we talked about the cost. It's going to take probably
double the time is well, there are many cases. There's
two I have right now, both married less than five years,
and their divorces are set to go beyond the time
they were married. And so my clients get frustrated and Dmitria,
can we just offer them X amount of dollars to

(10:15):
go away? But you know, like I know, it's not
about the money. It's about the control. It's about the
grandstanding in court and wherever else. So a lot of
times they don't want the money. They want to keep
trying to ruin financially and otherwise the other party. It's
about the game, right, right, I mean, that's really what
it is. They'll game the system, draw it out, expensive appeals,

(10:38):
delay on discovery, providing documents and all of that. But
then one day they find their new person that they
want to marry. Ever, oh so quickly they split up
on paper. They push it, we gotta we gotta hurry up.
We got hurry up, we gotta her. Aren't you the
person who took four months to come up with one years?
Four years? Right? And so it's really what it is.
It's like you said, it's they have to be in

(10:59):
control of the whole process. It's not necessarily that they
draw it out. Sometimes they really try to rush it
right so quickly that the other person can't even get
their feet under them because they want to quickly get
Usually it's remarried in my experience, and that takes me
to the idea of bifurcation. Yes, right and so, and
bifurcation to me has always code for the narcissistic person
wants to get married right right after they've made this

(11:20):
other persons like miserable for three years. And then if
you could just explain for our listeners what bifurcation is
so they understand what that con that's just a fancy
way of saying that we're going to get divorced on
paper and we're going to handle the issues of our
divorce later, meaning we're going to handle custody and vegetation,
division of assets, and debts. We're going to save that

(11:41):
for a later date. And you know that always works out. Really,
so when when the bifurcation is done, it's signed, those
people are then legally single. They can go enter into
the contract of the marriage is done, even though all
the other stuff's going on. That's correct, Yeah, because when
I've seen that happen, it was a rush for them
to get into their new and new relationship, new marriage,

(12:02):
big white wedding, the whole nine yards and there's this
whole big mess. It's like people are coming over for
dinner and you throw all the stuff in the closet,
like you know, the closet still all right, So let's
keep checklisting. What else do you have? Your attorney? You
have to pick an attorney that is aware of what's
going on or is stern enough to stand up to
the narcissistic attorney, because they will be condescending. They will

(12:26):
drive you crazy, and you have to learn how to
draw the line because your client is kind of watching
you as well, so you want to be sure that
you're not engaging in that. That is something I had
to learn because it is so easy when you're constantly
attacked to want to attack back. But that's exactly what
they want. How did you get good at this? Because
I don't imagine that there's a law school class called

(12:47):
how to practice family Law against a narcissistic opposing counsel.
It was trial by fire because I found myself, you know,
typing away my email. They will type email, I will
type an email, and I said, what am I doing?
I'm costing my client a lot of money And this
is exactly what they want you to do, is getting

(13:09):
trapped with whatever their issues are. But when I started
saying okay, thank you, I have your email, Thank you
very much. It stopped interesting. It was there one case
and you realize that you almost had to sort of
take a very different tack going forward because you learned
so much about narcissism and narcissistic abuse in one case. Yes,
it was a case that is still going, but it

(13:31):
was still every day. As you know, miss Graves, I'm
what we call a certified family law specialist. So she
would always say, well, as a certified family law specialist,
you should know X y Z. So it was constant,
jab very passive aggressive. So I had to get to
the point where I say, well, what is more important

(13:52):
fighting with this person are getting our client to the
finish line. It is not easy. I will not sit
here now you it is easy. It is not, especially
with my personality. I want to fight back. But yeah,
I had to be the bigger person and it's better
for my client. But it's challenging. You're having to do
what I tell clients to do with narcissists all the time,

(14:14):
which is don't engage, right, that's it. Don't engage. If
people don't like that though, like this person is talking
nonsense about me, like and I said, I understand that.
And in your case, it's even more interesting because of
your fudiciary responsibility that you do have to protect your
client financial You're not just supposed to sort of run
the meter, you know, constantly, because if you did answer

(14:35):
all of those emails, it would be any dry. But
not only that, our clients are watching us, right, So
if I'm getting upset and I'm getting emotional, then my
client's going to get upset and emotional. So it's not easy,
and a lot of times I spend time with my
client because sometimes they want to know, well, why are
we fighting back and should we be doing this? And

(14:56):
I have to have the conversation. No, the more we
engage age, the more it's going to cost. And it's
not kidding us anywhere. What Dimitria learned early in her
career is a classic tactic that works with any narcissist
in any scenario. It's called gray rocking. Essentially, acting like
a boring gray rock when interacting, you respond with brief,

(15:21):
disengaged answers. In time, the narcissist realizes that you're not
going to engage, and then they will back off. Did
you know about narcissism? Before you became a family law
attorney and before you started practicing independently, No, you did not,
So this is where you learned it. In doing it,
A lot of times you're like, well, is this narcissism

(15:41):
or is this person just controlling? So you do have
to go and do your own research, and you do
have to go and start studying and learning. And I
think that's what a lot of other attorneys do that
haven't had this experience, and some judges right, because we
do use narcissism a lot. Now it's more discussed than before. Yeah,

(16:03):
and if you don't enlighten yourself, it's hard to really
take serious and know the signs and know how to
engage in the process. One thing I'd say to that, though, Dmitria,
is that it's almost less important to get the narcissism
part right. It's not your job to be a personality
assessment expert, right, right. But you know, it would be

(16:24):
very rare to have someone who was harmfully controlling, but
then it was also really empathic and nice, right, Like
those things don't tend to co locate that that very
harmfully controlling person might also be coercive, is very likely
to be unempathic, it's very likely to be entitled, you know,
is very likely to be validation seeking, and on and

(16:46):
on and on. So this stuff kind of hangs together, right,
and that hanging togetherness means it's the one thing I've
always had a concern about is whether attorneys or even
family court judges are getting too lost in the weeds
of all is this a narcissist? Forget it, Let's write
down the patterns that are concerning when they're done. If
I were to look at the list, I'm like, probably,
you know, but I think that it's going to be

(17:07):
very rare for there to be a friendly, controlling person,
right right. So I think that that's the other thing
to almost lift that pressure off of all attorneys to say,
you have to be able to make that call. But
what you're looking for is consistency, right right. This is
not just someone whose heart is broken and on the
first day is saying like, darn you, you're not going
to do this to me. And then they're like, all right,

(17:29):
she's not into me anymore. I just gotta you know,
all right, and you know what I'm saying. There could
be that initial moment, but that's not what we're talking about.
I was talking about things that are going on for
years and years and years, and again it feels like
they've taken a system and turned it into a game. Right,
keep giving me that checklist if we hit it all
its or anything else you want to add to that.
The children aspect, Okay, that's the biggest one, right, attempt

(17:51):
to align the children with their agenda, and what they
tend to do is buy toys, by iPhones, by PlayStations
and cry. I've seen the crying at and how can
mom do this to us? Mom is breaking up, breaking

(18:15):
up our family. We're going to have to move. Mom's
taking away your house and children. That is very, very
hard because children do not want to be in the middle.
If you're buying them all these toys and constantly talking
bad about the other parents, it's very confusing. Do you

(18:35):
then prepare them and say this is going to be yes,
everything I'm talking to you about. We sit and have
these conversations. And so the intake process with someone that
is experiencing narcissistic abuse is way longer than any other
process because it's way more factors to consider, and I
think it's important you have to look at the practical
side of things and the legal side of things, because

(18:56):
I'm not there with you when you when you're at
home or when you're getting your finances together and all
these other things that are extremely important, but also the
legal aspects and making sure you hire the right attorney
for the situation that's going to deal with all of
these aspects. And then the last thing on my checklist
is over litigation. The case is going to be overly litigated.

(19:17):
I have a case right now. We're in court at
least once a month. I get two to three different motions.
A lot of times I don't even know what the
motion is and we're in front of the court, and
what's shifting in this particular case. I think the court
is on to the narcissistic partner. And so when that
happens and we know, things start to shift, but it

(19:37):
took us three years to get there. And what happens
in family court also, judges change a lot, So a
judge can be onto the narcissistic partner, but then they leave,
and so we're starting all over. And listen, what I've
been told by clients, and not just in California, is
that it was luck like if you got the judge
who understood narcissism, there was going to be a more

(20:00):
reason judgment. But if you got a judge who didn't
get narcissism, the judgment almost felt sadistic. Even though it
might have literally followed the family law code, it followed
it to the tea. There was absolutely no recognition of
the game that was being played in their courtroom. The
overly litigated pieces from my psychologists chair and these narcissistic divorces.

(20:21):
Is it's not just the cost, it's not just a headache.
It's actually the trauma. Yes, because I find that my
clients will say, I'm having nightmares, I can't sit still,
i am constantly ruminating, I am not in my life.
My body is falling apart. I'm afraid to look at
my inbox. Yes, and so those sorts of things, the
phone pings, they jump, phone rings, they jump the email

(20:44):
to the point where some folks were saying I was
not being good about checking my email, running into some
issues at work because it was that stressful. And it's
not just about the overlitigation, as like now I have
to show up to court again. It's a twenty four
seven issue that does tremendous harm to people who are
going through these divorce processes. You have this checklist, it's great.
I would say the biggest takeaway from your list to

(21:05):
me is you have to shift your expectations. Yes, right, yes,
and so that's a big one. Yes. And you keep
coming to this point because it seems like what a
person needs is a really informed guide through this process.
I have often told any client who comes to me
going through a narcissistic divorce, I said, you have to
retain an attorney. You are not doing this online right,

(21:28):
This is not going to be simple. How do you
recommend that a person choose an attorney if they're going
through a narcissistic divorce. I think it's important to have
your own checklist for your attorney. You have you worked
with any cases that had a narcissistic person on any side?

(21:50):
What is your approach to the dissolution? And if they're
over talking you or not addressing the issues, they probably
do not have the experience. Are they say things like oh,
I don't know about if I don't believe in narcissism
and that sort of thing, it is not the attorney
for you. Or if it's someone that's a little more passive,

(22:12):
you know, a little more kumbaya. It's not going to work.
It's not going to work for you, and then you
do have to follow your intuition. A lot of times
we have a bad habit of not listening to our intuition,
especially in situations like that. I think that's just as
important as the attorney checklist. I'm so glad you brought

(22:32):
that up because I cannot tell you, Demitria, the number
of people who when they were meeting with attorneys and
they'd say, listen, am I soon to be access narcissistic.
I'm really worried about how this is going to unfold.
And we're told by the attorney everybody says their ax
is narcissistic ye, which to me is actually a version

(22:55):
of gaslighting clients. Right, it's completely minimizing their experience, and
it's dangerous because what that does so that client is saying, oh,
I guess you're right, everyone going through divorce since that
person was just rotten and that's why they're leaving. And
so maybe none of this is even you know, maybe
that's the wrong word, and you're right. They could get
into that wrong attorney and I'm so glad you as

(23:16):
an attorney or saying this if they are not listening
to what you're saying. I've heard this dozens and dozens
of times. The worst hardest cases are the folks who
come to me who are already four to six months
into the divorce process. They're shredded and they're stuck with
this attorney. And a lot of times I almost say
people can get trauma bonded to their divorce attorneys just
they were trauma bonded in that relationship. They're working really hard,

(23:39):
they are trying for me. We're this far down the path. Justify, justify, justify,
which is what happened in the relationship. And I'll say,
this person is acting in your service. And I understand
you don't want to throw more money at this problem
with a new attorney, but this could end up going
really badly. And what are the biggest mistakes people make
when they come in they start the process of a

(24:01):
narcissistic divorce that you've seen. They engage from the get go.
They're in the house, they're fighting, they're fighting in front
of the children. They engage from the start, and that
really sets them behind the eight ball because the narcissistic
abusers already planning what they're going to do in divorce.
They're probably recording you. They probably have your on camera

(24:24):
doing things that you're not supposed to do. That's the
number one thing. Oh I'm not I have worked with clients.
I mean, it just becomes the war of the cameras
and the recording devices. And I understand it like from
the position of the non narcissistic person. They've said sometimes
these cameras have been a game changer because I've actually
taken the footage and showed it to my attorney and said,
this is what we're dealing with. But on the same breath,

(24:46):
I've had to tell non narcissistic folks going through divorce,
you might need to hire someone to sweep this house.
Probably fifty percent of the time they found something. My
conversation with Demetria will continue after this break. I'm sure
they have. The other mistake I've seen is not having

(25:07):
a plan. These types of cases require a plan. How
are we going to address this case? Are we going
to allow the other person to file first, which I
say yes, because it gives them the illusion that they're
in control and they get to set the stage. So
you need a plan for these cases. It's not like
the typical divorce where Okay, you file, I file, we

(25:29):
go about our happy way. You need a plan, okay.
So basically the mistake is coming in without a plan, right,
continuing to engage right, and then having the wrong attorney.
I would love to share with you what I have
seen what I thought were mistakes, but I'm not an attorney, okay, okay,
and I'd love to hear what your take is on
some of these Some of the mistakes I've seen is

(25:51):
people having a very unrealistic view of what's going to
happen in the family court system. The biggest being, well,
people are going to see that I'm I'm a really
devoted parent and they're sort of terrible and mean, and
if I show them all the mean emails, well, they're
not going to give them any custody. Right, wrong, so wrong? Right.

(26:12):
Remember working once years ago with a family, and this
was like one of those really happy families too, like
everyone's loving each other and getting along, and the parents
had been married like a million years and everyone was happy.
Daughters going through a narcissistic divorce and the family's like, well,
they're going to see he's terrible and he's had affairs
and he screams at the children. They're going to give

(26:34):
you all the custody of the kids, and we're going
to help you, and we're going to move next door
to you. And they had it all figured out until
the process began and he started fighting for fifty percent custody.
Would you know, of course he got it because yelling
at your wife or having an affair are not in
most states of grounds, not certainly not in California to
not have custody. This family was shattered. They said, we

(26:58):
had no idea, so they literally didn't know how the
system works, right, And is that would you say that
that's a mistake. I think that's not having an adequate
conversation with your lawyers, because your lawyers should tell you.
In California, there is a really big push to half
fifty fifty curry. And then on top of that, with
a lot of attorneys and a lot of judges not

(27:20):
being aware of narcissism, they're not looking into it that way.
They're saying, how far do you live from each other?
Are the kids? Okayft fifty custody? Right? So there has
to be very detailed conversations about the topics that are
most important to you, so you do know what to expect.
And then you have to stay clear of attorneys that

(27:41):
lie to you. If they tell you we're going to
give you everything you want, you want percent custody, you
got it, run because it's not realistic. So glad you
said that to you. Which is that idea that an
attorney may promise you the moon and stars. Oh, this case,
I'm easily going to get you eighty percent, no problem.
I've heard people say that and it was none of

(28:01):
it was true. And what then, Well, your attorney should
be telling you the pros and cons of your case, right,
You don't want you should not want to hear all
the good things. You should not want to hear I'm
gonna win the moon and the stars. You want someone
that tells you these are the pros of your case,
these are the cons. This is where I think we're
going to have problems. Yep, yep, yep. And but it

(28:24):
is a it is such an emotional time that I
also think what's challenging as people can't really hear what's
being said. Right, that's a big one too. Honestly, when
they're coming in your office, you know there's this whoshing
sound in their ears and they're probably hearing about half
of what you're saying. So things in writing and all
of that would make a huge, huge That brings me
back to my original point that we are here to

(28:45):
help you with the business of your divorce. So the
more you can have support outside of what we do,
the better you can potentially hear what we're saying. So
let's talk about mediation, okay, because this is one that
comes up all the time. Mediation is put out there
as a what's considered maybe a more civil and less
costly approach. Is mediation ever a realistic option for people

(29:08):
who are going through a divorce with the narcissistic person.
I think it's only a choice when they have new supply.
Supply or narcissistic supply is the validation that the narcissistic
person wants and needs. This can be praise, attention, a
sense of power, control, and domination like they might feel

(29:30):
if they are commandeering a divorce. When narcissistic people have
enough supply, we see the charm, charisma, swagger, and arrogance.
These relationships are notoriously one sided, with the narcissist needing
supply and the rest of us giving it. So if
they're trying to get out of the relationship fast and
they really want out and they're ready to give you

(29:51):
what you want because they're focused on something else, then
it might work. Otherwise it doesn't because it's a direct
contradiction to who on our a person is right, because
they know everything. So if you know everything, you can't
hear the mediator. You can't hear what they're trying to
tell you. You can't hear them, and they want to win,
and mediation is not about winning, it's about compromising. And

(30:14):
so if they haven't moved on and they're still kind
of focused on this process, it's probably not a great idea.
I found your example really interesting, Demitria. If your narcissistic
person has already found new supply, you know that they
found a new person to validate invariably in the divorces
that they've met someone new, right, which again, narcissistic people
they're again because they don't go deep with anyone, they're

(30:35):
able to replace you with someone new and very quickly.
If they didn't already while you were still married, right,
So there they have their new supply. That's fascinating to
me is that you found that in some of those cases,
the persons found their new supply, they're feeling in a
rush to get engaged and to get married. That that
might be a point if that narcissistic person, though, is

(30:56):
sort of feeling such a pressure that they just want
to get you gone and meiation could potentially, but you
better hope they don't break up with the supply because
then the focus is back on you and we're right
back to where we started. So now we get to
this interesting place of the language. People use words like
narcissism and gas lighting. Again, I've been told this by

(31:18):
my clients. Will say, when you say these words in
the courtroom, you're sometimes viewed as the problem. Yes, can
you talk to ze Okay, can you talk to us
about that? Yes? Because I think it's so I don't
want to say overly used in our society, but I
think it's a new concept. We're learning more about it,
and some people don't want to be bothered. And so
most judges have twenty to thirty cases on their calendar.

(31:41):
And so if you go off script and start talking
about things that they're not familiar with. Then you, of
course are the crazy one and maybe we should look
at you, or maybe you're the narcissist because you keep
bringing it up. Courts don't want to hear it, so
you have to be very careful with the language you use.
Do you coach clients who are going through narcissistic divorces
on that saying we're not I get that your X

(32:04):
is we're soon to be X is a narcissist, But
I get that they're gaslighting. I get all that we're
not saying these works. Do you prepare them to find
different ways to talk about this stuff in front of
a judge, talk about the issue at hand. This person
did not do the exchange at this time. I am
concerned because of x y Z Dmitria. I want to

(32:24):
understand when a person has you have a client, they
have a narcissistic X who has a narcissistic attorney. Are
there any legal guardrails in place to stop this process
from becoming full on ongoing harassment? Yes and no. Right so,
there are codes in the family Code that can sanction

(32:45):
a party for overlitigating. There's even codes now to sanction
the attorney, but doesn't happen in practice? Not really interesting. Okay,
there might be a slap on a risk a warning here,
but not anything significant. So that means what I'm hearing
is that it is conceivable some this entire process can
be commandeered by someone if they have the attorney who's

(33:07):
willing to do it, for them to turn into a
place of harassment. For years, I've had a case for
almost five years. They've filed over ninety motions, ninety to
what end? Like those? How different can each of these?
So where my client and I are just like here
we go, Wow, what ends? Is there a point where

(33:32):
a person who holds some form of authority through the
stage or the courts or the county or whatever, can
finally say, clocks, time's up. We've run out. Is that
a thing? Well, we eventually get to a trial, and
that would eventually end it. But we have to get
to the trial. Oh so the trial is sort of
the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence. But

(33:54):
my understanding is it does take a long time. A
long time. Is that because all of this other stuff
has to happen first, or is it because the courts
are backed up? Or both. It's both okay, But a
lot of times we have to do discovery. You know,
that's a way to extend the case. Oh I didn't
get this, Oh I need to do another deposition. Oh
I need these documents. And for our listeners, you want
to interrupt you, but I just as we're using this

(34:15):
for a discovery. I know it, you know it. But
my understanding of what discovery is is sort of the
providing all of the appropriate documentation of anything that's needed
to be able to get what's need so that decisions
can be made in the case I write about that, right,
So it could be tax documents, it could be finantial
bank statements, anything deeds of even could be medical records

(34:37):
related to children. But then when you're in this process,
discovery is all your text messages to my client for
the last five years, all your text messages to your
mother for the last five years. So it's another form
of harassment. Yeah, because it doesn't solve the case. Is
there ever an authority that says no, you're not getting

(34:58):
the text messages to the mother. That's not a thing
like no, no, no. So the people can just sort
of ask for anything that they want and because they
can make up any reason why they need the messages
to your mom, right, you told your mom you were
going to give her the house, so that becomes a
way to try to obtain text messages. I see, I

(35:20):
see what I tell clients who, especially when I get
them in the beginnings, I say to them, in about
six months, you're going to start regretting that you filed
for divorce. You're going to think you've made the biggest
mistake of your life. And I want you to note
that is coming because of what this process is. To
the degree I can give them some psycho education that
they are going to ask for things that are you

(35:40):
can't imagine. This is going to become your second full
time job pulling all this documentation, getting all the stuff together.
You are going to feel trauma to tell I like, literally,
this is what's about to come. So the way we've
been talking about things, Dmitri, we have definitely been talking
about folks who have money. What do you advise to
a person who is about to approach a divorce. They

(36:03):
do not have resources. Maybe they're renting an apartment, but
it's the stuff with custody and child support, spiles or whatever.
How do you advise people in those situations where it
may very well be contentious around things like custody, but
they simply don't have financial resources. The beauty of La
County at least is there are a lot of self

(36:25):
help sinners that will assist with the documents. There are
a lot of organizations that will also give you an
attorney if you meet their criteria, so you might have
to do a little legwork and search out who can
help you where you can get the documentation. A lot

(36:46):
of the court's website has all of the information you need,
and they try to do a really good job of
outlining what you need to do, step by step, how
to file the documents. There are also pro bono attorneys
that take on some of these cases free of charge,
but we all know that that's not a lot because
you know, attorneys cost money. But most attorneys will provide

(37:08):
a free consultation. Okay, so do not go into court
without at least talking to someone to at least getting
some of the tools. They might not give you everything,
but getting some understanding of what to expect in court,
how it's going to happen, how you should present your evidence.
At least try to have a conversation, so you're not
going in blind and not knowing what to expect. Ask

(37:31):
the attorney, hey, do you know this judge? What can
I expect? What should I say? How should I address?
Should I address the other party? At least you have
some framework of what to expect, even if you can't
afford representation. Okay. So however, it's got to be challenging
in absolutely. What about other issues, like even around immigration
status or anything like that, which you can leave a

(37:53):
person feeling like they're at peril? How does that work?
Immigration status is not presented in family courts, Okay, it
is not to know an issue that the court will consider,
and courts actually get a little irritated when people try
to bring that up because it's not part of the
family law ex experience. Okay, that's good to know. And
then most courts also have interpreters as well, So I

(38:13):
would consider bringing your own if you think the court's
going to be short staff or if they don't have
your particular translator. But most of the times they do
have interpreters available at the court. There are workarounds, but
it's going to be harder. I mean, I think that
there's no sugarcoatingness is if a person is going is
under resourced going through this experience. Right again, they're so

(38:34):
psychologically racked that working their way through, even through these
low cost resources just feels challenge you overwhelming, It's really challenging.
What about when you have one partner who has very
few resources, but the other partner is more resourced. Right,
so they have a job, they make the money, they're
financially controlling. The financially control all the money. What about

(38:57):
those situations that party can go in and ask that
the narcissistic partner pay for their attorney fees. Now, that's
going to probably come with a lot of I mean
they can, you can ask for anything you want a
lot of challenges. Yeah, but that is the standard in
family law. If one party has the ability to pay,
they will be on the hook for fee. Well, now,

(39:19):
will you actually get it? Is the question the court
can order it. Will you get it? Is an issue.
I have also seen where the non abusing party loses
their attorney because the narcissistic party is not paying the fees.
And so a lot of times the non abusing party
is left defending themselves because they can't afford or the

(39:40):
other side is not providing the appropriate fees. Okay, So
and I've seen that happen too. So you raised something
though that I don't I want to ask about. Okay,
I've seen this one happen over and over and over again.
Which is this person, narcissistic person making tons of money
bringing it in living large. Now this process starts and

(40:02):
lost my job, yes, okay, or I close my business.
Close business is a big one, right close my business?
Lost my job, So now this starts this entire game
around support payments and all of that. Can you talk
a little bit about those scenarios in the narcissistic divorce. Well, thankfully,

(40:22):
if they are employed, we can do wage garnishments and
that sort of thing to make sure that, you know,
support is paid. But it is a challenge if that
person is self employed, there's nothing to attach to, and
so then the non narcissistic party is trying to survive.
So then this process becomes less important because I don't

(40:43):
have money. How am I going to take care of
the children? How am I going to live? And so
now they're off their game, while the narcissistic partners going
on their game plans this sort of sick and twisted
sort of sense of pride of like, look, I stuck
it to this person I want and may still have
resources and whatnot that they can access because all they

(41:06):
did was step away, like you said, from a self
employment kind of a setup. And that's why all we
try to talk to clients throughout the process about the
practicality of everything, because of course I do this every day, right,
so this is my job, this is what I do.
But how are you going to live? What is the
plan if he takes everything away? What are we doing?
Because you're not going to want to do this process

(41:28):
if you don't have anywhere to go at night. Yes,
so that's extremely important to me. Yes, yes, yes, Okay.
What does community property really mean? Community property really means
that all the property and the debt for that matter,
that we accrue during the marriage belongs to the both
of us. Okay, So if we buy property, regardless of

(41:49):
whose name it's in, are assumed to be community property. Okay. Cars, cars, furniture, furniture, everything, everything, everything,
And it doesn't matter if you bought it for your
bank account or my bank account, or your salary or
my salary. Okay, I'm going to ask you a funny, tricky,
strange question. So I've worked with more than a few
people or with narcissistic cheaters. Oh okay, And so the

(42:12):
narcissistic cheater, he'd buy an expensive item, a watch, a
piece of jewelry for the other person, Okay, special friend,
that thing now belongs to someone else. But presumably these
joint assets were used to buy a fifty thousand dollars gift. Right,
how does that play out in a divorce? It really
depends on the station in life, right, because if fifty

(42:33):
thousand is really like five hundred, it's probably not going
to be a thing a thing. But a fifty thousand
is twice your salary for the month or whatever it is,
it's going to be a thing, and you might have
to give that back to the community. So, in other words,
that person gone, but that fifty thousand may have to
come back in. It's really it depends kind of scenario.

(42:56):
I know of a circumstance where a person found a
receipt for expensive pieces that equaled about fifty thousand. They
weren't hers, right, and so then she knew that this
was purchased for something that's definitely a divorce issue. Do
you ever advise a person in a divorce with a
narcissist where there's going to be all this twoing and
frowing that if they can find a number that works

(43:16):
for them that would be less than the fifty percent
that they're entitled to, might even be thirty percent, but
they can live with the number, take it and go,
even though it's not what the law might have awarded
them all the time, all the time. Interested, what do
you talk more about that? Yes? What is it worth
to you? What is your mental health work to you?
What is your piece work to you? What is your
freedom work to you? And some people sometimes I have to,

(43:38):
you know, talk them back up. Some people say I
don't want anything. I'll walk away from all the houses,
all the stuff. I just want to go. Let's talk
about infidelity, Okay, okay, narcissistic infidelity that because the fact is,
not all relationships where there's infidelity end up in divorce,
right the In fact, a lot don't. Don't. Narcissistic infidelity
seems to have a little bit of a flare to it.

(43:58):
It's either repeat did yes, it's in your face their
person's gas slighted about it, whatever, it is when you
and and they've already if you're married to or a
narcissistic person, they've already been abusing the heck out of
you anyway, so treating you terribly, and then there's this
whole other thing happening. And so in your experience when
infidelity is a driver of that divorce, do those divorces

(44:22):
have a different feel to you from the perspective of
you representing the non narcissistic person. Right, They're very dramatic
from the start. But again we're managing expectations because unfortunately
in California we have a no faught state. So infidelity
is important to the person that it happened to ye,
but it's not important in the context of the divorce.

(44:44):
So I'm having to say, yes, let's talk about it.
I want to hear about it because it's important to you.
But unfortunately, when we go onto court, judge doesn't want
to hear about it. That must be a big part
again about the expectations, and I think that's a shocker
for people who think, like it's isn't that don't you
get like points for that now? And then some people
get mad at me because I'm honest right. Everyone doesn't

(45:07):
appreciate the honesty. I've had people not hire me, go
hire someone that told them what they wanted to hear,
and then come back because the honesty is important. I'm
not going to tell you, Yes, go tell the court
all the times he cheated on you, because the court
just doesn't want to hear about it. Interesting. Have you
ever represented the narcissist? Yes, okay, talk about this. I

(45:30):
think that was before I really understood what was going on,
and when I was a lot younger in my career,
where the money meant something more to me than my reputation,
and they know how to control you. They know how
to get out of you what they want, and the
money is flowing. So in your career before you learn

(45:51):
all money is not good money and your reputation matters,
and you know you have constant money coming in. And
that's a very hard experience because you have no client
control because they know more than you. Without a law degree,
they know more than the judge, so it's very hard
to maintain the case. Now, the next thing I want
to go talk about why do people get divorced? I

(46:13):
could spend an hour on this topic, but I heard
this quote before, and it really stuck with me. I
think people spend more time preparing for the wedding than
they do the actual marriage. People aren't talking, they don't
know what they want the marriage to look like, they
don't know what makes them happy. They haven't talked to
their spouse about what makes them happy. So people are
just getting married and then trying to figure it out

(46:36):
once they get in the relationship. I think what's also challenging, though,
is that the narcissistic relationship so at a whole level
of challenge to that, right, yes, because with all the
conversations in the world, we're never going to make this
relationship healthy. And then people say, well, shouldn't people have
figured this out before they got married? Ish, you know,
the idea of this whole trauma bonding justifying not getting

(47:00):
what this is. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a person.
Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive. I mean, the
whole litany of things we talk about on this podcast
all the time that folks are kind of in a storm.
And so then there is this idea of like, but
I really do want to get married, I really do
want a family. If their friends are all getting married,
this whole agenda that's happening that has nothing to do

(47:21):
And so I was thinking, I saw some stuff that
made me uncomfortable, but there was enough boxes being ticked.
I'm like, oh, if there ever there was a time
to not compromise this before you agree to this. But
even once they're in it, the justifying all that stuff continues,
and communication and all of that stuff that's all off
the table. People are in a mess that they just
simply don't understand. And if they don't have the language

(47:43):
of narcissism, they just don't even know what they're dealing with.
And most of the time they're blaming themselves. There were
more procedures to get in ilish, there were more conversation,
more procedure to get in to force people to really
think about the commitment. I really agree, And you know what,
I think part of the problem is a lot of

(48:04):
that has happened in sort of more religious spaces, you
know what I'm saying, Like, you know, church, marriage counseling,
these six sessions you might have to do, and I
think that's tricky. I think that's designed like let's talk
about things, but I actually mean sort of like, for example,
when a patient comes from my practice. There's an informed
consent where I'm kind of listening everything that could kind
of go wrong. Right, Nobody is signing informed consent for marriage.

(48:28):
There is no form. No, they're not even talking about it.
That's a thing. Yeah, informed consent for marriage. I never
even thought about it until now, Like, please know that.
Can you imagine a lot of people, and there'd be
two doors if you're still want to that would be
that door and the other door. There's a bar right there,

(48:49):
just have a coverage. I want the bar want. I
think I'm gonna take a path on that one. Okay.
So when you're in a narcissistic relationship and things go wrong,
the one thing a narcissistic person cannot do is regulate disappointment.
They cannot a job offset, not getting the bonus they thought,
not getting the promotion, not getting the money, whatever it

(49:11):
may be, things not working out the way they want.
They lack the flexibility to roll with that. And so
a marriage that was already a little precarious because this
person was really difficult to start with. When things go wrong,
when it falls apart, it falls apart colossally, and narcissistic
people always blame everybody else for what's gone wrong. This
is your fault, This is your mother's fault, this is

(49:32):
your sister's fault, this is the kid's fault, this is
the dog's fault. And then when the divorce process starts,
this is an unfair process. This is the entire process
is stacked up against me. Victim victim, victim victim, right,
and that's how they go that to that process. But
a lot of narcissists high too, that can really hide
who they are. Charm your sacks off until you're married.

(49:53):
Demitria notes that narcissism can hide behind charm. It's not
that they hide, it's that the superficial charm is a
tactic meant to get validation, and that is on when
they feel in control and in power. But lurking underneath
at all times is the rage that comes out when

(50:14):
they feel insecure, So they can be very charming in
the courtroom. Oh yes. And what's challenging about this is
if a person's gone through a narcissistic divorce, they often
look crushed. Okay, they look crushed and broken by the process,
so they can look hollowed out. They may be hunched over,
they may be crying, they may not actually even look

(50:35):
well put together because they've been through something. Right, the
narcissistic person comes in there, they're charming, they are grandiose,
they're so privilege they feel like they belong there. They
almost are acting like their buddies with the judge. That's
what the judges need to be able to see through,
because that picture is maybe of like, well, maybe this

(50:55):
person just was like there's something wrong with them the
other person and this person seems to have it really well,
sort of put together. Have you ever had that situation
where your client was really sort of broken down by
this process, and then the charming narcissist comes in and
walters into the courtroom and everyone's thinking, well, they've got
it all together. I have, and I've had to have

(51:16):
a hard conversation. If we go in here crying, it's
not gonna be good for us. So let's cry. Now,
let's take a break, let's go have coffee, and then
we're going to go back in because unfortunately it is
a sign of weakness. And when we go into court again,
we want to present our facts, our case and get
to the court what we want. But if we go

(51:37):
over there like you said, slouched over crying. Your message
is overshadowed by that. It's unfortunate because there's a reality
to it. The reason that person is hunched over is
because they've gone through something. It's not you know what
I'm saying, it's not at all weak. In fact, that's
a really strong response experiencing something real. But the judges
do not understand trauma. Right. But this is what I

(51:59):
tell my clients too. Again, this is a business, and
there's a way you have to present your business. We
have to deal with our emotions and our trauma and
everything we went through, but unfortunately we cannot present that
in the courtroom. We will be right back with my
conversation with Demitria. So let's talk about you, not your custody.

(52:24):
It's messy enough already, and this is where all the
emotions come in because most people say car, dining, table, house,
even whatever. I want my kids, right, How do you
help people through this process when they're starting and going
through a narcissistic divorce and this custody issue of minor
children is in play. It depends on where we are

(52:46):
in a case. Because I've had a case where the
narcissistic partner went and tried to win custody before the
case even started, right, So when we're in that circumstance,
and clearly that's a different strategy. And sometimes if you
even start with fifty fifty, it kind of unravels on
its own because sometimes the narcissistic partner cannot sustain it,

(53:07):
especially if there's new supply that they're focused on. They
don't even want their children fifty percent of the time. Yeah,
no they don't, but they'll fight for fifty percent because
they know they're going to mess with the other person.
But then it falls apart and they can't do it.
So and the fall apart process because the decision, a
court decision may be made for fifty percent, right, the
fall apart would then be the documentation of this pickup

(53:29):
didn't happen. They didn't take them for any of the
weekends they were supposed to. They disappeared from They don't
care about that because they won. They won the fifty fifty, right,
But then your client is now going to have to
mount up the legal argument and go back into the court. Ye. Right.
So that's the thing is that to modify it, you're
not going to get that appointment right away, And so
while you're waiting those gaps of time, got the fifty

(53:50):
fifty judgment, narcissistic person messing up, messing up, messing up
new court dates all the way over here, right. But
in this entire process here, what's happening is that that
narcissistic person, the narcissistic x narcissistic co parent, is lording
it over them. Hey, I got fifty percent, don't you
plan av cage? I got fifty percent? They don't take

(54:12):
the fifty percent, but the court dates all the way
out here. This is so psychologically difficult for people who
are holding up eighty percent custody. They're not getting the
financial support necessarily if they're entitled to it for eighty
percent custody. But then when they try to plan a
life for these children, it's exactly then where that narcissistic
co parent will say, well, I do have fifty percent,

(54:34):
and if you don't do that, well then you are
in violation that fifty fifty. That's the game I've seen
played over and over and over. And what's said to
me are the kids are watching, they see what's happening.
They're the most impacted. This sticks with them, and a
lot of children do not have the language to express
how they're feeling and what that's like. I also think

(54:54):
of the number of people who sort of wait until
their children are either coming in sixty seventeen years old
or full on eighteen, like eighteenth birthday celebration of my
eighteen child's eighteen birthdays. I'm rolling up to court and
I'm filing for divorce right where the custody stuff is
off the table. Right. The big question I get why
can't the courts just do what's right to protect children

(55:15):
and instead get caught in this. Well, by the law,
they're allowed to have this. What are your thoughts on that.
I think courts think they're doing the best that they
can with the information that they have, right, because we
both know narcissists can hide some of this behavior, they
can present the best of themselves. And let's say, I'm
gonna use myself for an example. If I have a

(55:36):
mental issue and I went to a mental health facility
for a couple of months, you're using that against me.
So now it's how can she take care of a
child if she has these mental health concerns, or how
can she take care of a child if she works
eighty hours a week, and so they know how to
use things against you to make themselves look better and

(55:57):
hide the narcissistic trade. The thing that I try to
work with clients on is can we get you set
up in your attorney, set things out the right way
that you make the narcissistic person snap. That's the game.
I mean, I hate to say game, but that's the game.
You know, is how can we get them? And part
of it is you know, you not reacting, you staying strong,

(56:19):
you coming in looking like your fear self and your
new suit into the courtroom. That it's anything that can
make them again snap so that their personality comes will
show to the judge. There are other players where there's
children in custody, there are people who represent the child
in proceedings. These folks are a blessing and a curse

(56:41):
because a lot of them don't understand narcissism right. And
it also depends on who they align with. Some alind
with the narcissisms. I know that that can be very
very dangerous, very dangerous. Can you explain what a guardian
ad litem is from a legal perspective? If that's just
someone that's appointed as the guardian of the child if
something for whatever reason, either parent is not in the

(57:02):
capacity to care for their kid, okay, and so the
guardian a lighted is someone the parents choose, or it's
someone who's acting. Sometimes the court has to choose if
the parents are unable to choose, okay. So this is
a person who's in the child's life yes, okay, Kennedy
and sort of helping represent their interests in court process.
And what I see mostly in family court at least

(57:22):
here is either miners counsel yes, which is a lawyer
that is appointed for the child's voice. We also have
miners interview where miners are interviewed by the judge to
talk about whatever the issue may be. And then we
have custody evaluations where someone that's like a therapist comes
and evaluates the situation and makes a recommendation for the

(57:45):
court what they deem to be the children's best interests.
The bigger problem to me is sometimes they don't have
enough time to really get into the needy gradient what's
going on, and most people don't have money to pay
for a private evaluator that can be fifteen to twenty
thousand dollars. And then again, if that person aligns with

(58:05):
one of the parties, it's not giving the court adequate information.
And then miners counsel. Most parties don't have money to
pay for the minor to have a lawyer. But I
know for me in my practice, I don't like kids
to have to be interviewed or have lawyers. That is
very traumatic. They do not want to do that. It's
very traumatic. And Okay, so this is another really important one.

(58:29):
Kids are often it's not hurt, sometimes even traumatized by
this entire process. Yes, what if you have a situation
where one parent very much wants therapy for the children,
but the other parent is saying no, and they have
set up their medical care. Is that both parents have
joint legal custody, which is what most parents tend to have,

(58:52):
is joint legal custody, meaning they both can make legal
decisions about the child. But I will say family court
is very, very supportive of therapy for children, especially in
divorce settings. So you better have a really good reason
why you're objecting to therapy and why you feel it's
not in the best interest, because what can happen is

(59:13):
you can lose your joint deciding authority, and that one
parent can have the authority to decide if the kids
are going to do therapy or not. If the one
parent is trying to stop something like, there has to
be a really good reason, Okay, all right, yes, yeah. However,
I have seen though that the parent who is trying
to refuse therapy could forestall the process. They're waiting for

(59:33):
the hearing until they have that, so it could be months,
sometimes even a year. The child can't get therapy because
you can't get both parents to what. I've heard judges
saying that regardless, that is not child focused and if
you don't come up with a good reason, I need
to know why the other parents shouldn't have so legal custody.
I think that the hardest thing that people learn is
that family court is actually not designed to protect children.

(59:57):
That's not its function, and that's what a lot of
people think it is. And sadly though this system is
harming children. I have worked with adult survivors of these
court systems. I'm thinking of one woman in particular, and
she said, I was destroyed by what happened in that
family court. That fifty fifty custody. Yes, damn near broke me.
If the function of family court is not to protect children,

(01:00:19):
what is the function of family court? Well, they will
tell you it is to protect the children and get
the parties divorce. But as we're talking that that's not
the case, not the case right now that it's pushing
the cases through. Family court has so many cases in
front of them, especially post pandemic, so they're not spending

(01:00:39):
the time on each case to really get down to
the details of what's going on. They can only do
with what is presented to them by the parties. And
a lot of times we can't see the narcissistic behavior
because they're hiding behind their masks, and they do it
really well. To me, family court is a place where

(01:01:00):
this legal contract called marriage is taken apart. Yes, and
I think that that contract part that's not very romantic
and it's not sexy like a honeymoon or a wedding cake.
But it is a contract. And when we take contracts
apart ahead of their term, there's a process. Yes, And

(01:01:21):
what if the narcissistic co parent keeps trying to drag
the other person back into court over everything from the
hundred dollars for karate lessons to the new pair of
snow boots, like every little expenditure they're trying to adjudicate.
How do you handle those cases for your clients. I
have told my clients to keep as great as records

(01:01:42):
as possible. Document everything. I paid you ten dollars on
February twenty third for karate whatever it is, to document it,
because nine times out of ten, if the narcissistic partner
did not win, you are going back to court. Okay,
what is your guy around? Family communication apps? Like My

(01:02:03):
Family Wizard and I'm talking parents love them and I
think our Family Wizard has the tone meter, So if
you feel if you feel that you know you might
use choice words, it has a tone meter and it'll
tell you the alternative to what you want to say.
Imagine if we had tone meters we could wear around
our necks as we walked around the roof. Be it

(01:02:23):
really quiet? Right? World? Right? I think you and I
are both so familiar with the apps, but people listening
may not be. So my Family Wizards has a tone meter. Yes,
can you talk a little bit about how that plays
out on the app, because I think it's a really
great future. So in family courts, sometimes the court has

(01:02:44):
to order that parties have to use an app to
communicate with one another. And so what our Family Wizard
does if you send an email because you're supposed to
communicate with your other parents on the app, it'll tell you, hey,
check your tone when you send this email. And that's
based on the words. That's based on the words that
you put in the message to the other party. And

(01:03:07):
I also say with the apps, keep it short. Please
don't give of seven page letter. Let's see, that's what
narcissistic people do if they do give seven page letters.
And you know, the features of our Family Wizard talking
parents is that they create a record, a record that
is actually admissible in court and chord yes, and that
starts to unravel the narcissistic mass as well. The court

(01:03:30):
continuously sees seven page letters. That's exactly why the courts
mandate the use of the apps. The parties can either
agree on their own or if the communication is just
so far out of control, the court will mandate okay, okay,
god than use of the adding Okay. You know what's
interesting about narcissistic folks and divorces. At some point, the

(01:03:52):
kids sort of feel like a nuisance to them and
sort of put cramp in their style and all of that.
They could do the Disneyland parent thing for a man
in it and show up and be all that they're
not really interested in the hard work of parenting in
many of these most of the cases I've seen, once
they have one, whatever custody schedule they were seeking, it
falls apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nine times out of tune.

(01:04:13):
I think there are folks out there who think that
going in front of a judge will be this moment
when someone is going to bear witness in this really
public kind of judicially way, that someone's going to bear
witness that this person's a narcissist, and there's going to
be this magic moment it'll be recognized, the judge is

(01:04:34):
going to see it. It's going to unmask the narcissist
in this really public way, and that the person going
through this will feel whole. What you got to say
about that? That makes for great TV, but unfortunately that's
not realistic. Yeah, yeah, And do you ever have clients
who think that's going to happen. People want to be vindicated, Yes,
they do. They want to be they want to be seen,

(01:04:56):
but unfortunately it's not in court. Yeah, I think it's
a human in desire that somebody, especially a person in
a position of authority, will bear witness your pain. And
I think that if people are not prepared that that's
not going to happen. It can actually feel like a
catastrophic moment of even in this place where I thought
that rightness and justice was going to be delivered, it

(01:05:16):
wasn't seen. What is the rest of my life going
to look like? When we have the sense of the
world is an unjust place at such a big level,
it can actually be this really big existential hole let
people fall into. But I'm gonna referm them back to
our expectation conversation, Yeah, of what the court is, what
their role is, and what we can expect from an experience.

(01:05:37):
So it's before the person goes in, they need to
be aware of that. And you're right, this isn't a
TV show where this is this grand moment and everything
is seen and the person or people are clapping at
the end and it's your crying and your attorney's hugging you. Okay,
sorry to bust the bubble. Yeah, yeah, I know it's
good to bust bubbles because otherwise it can get messy. Dmitrich,
can you tell people where to find you? I am everywhere,

(01:06:00):
definitely social media, Demitria Graves. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, you
can email me at info at Graves Law FIRMCA dot com.
I have my own podcast, Legally Uncensored, where I talk
about a lot of these issues as well. You're such
a fresh, wonderful voice. I so glad that we I

(01:06:22):
get selfishly, so glad that everyone's like, I need an attorney.
I got someone for you. I've got a referral. So
I can't thank you for taking time out of your
very busy schedule, really important work you do to share
this with I've learned so much and I'm so grateful
to you, so thank you, well, thank you. I'm very
very happy to be here. Thank you. Here are my

(01:06:42):
takeaways from my conversation with Demitria. Let's break down Demetria's
pre divorce checklist for divorce from a narcissistic person, which
is about the psychological shifts you will need to make
within yourself. Her checklist highlights the issue of expectations and

(01:07:05):
mental preparation. She reminds us that one the gloves are
off and this is likely to be contentious and ugly
to the degree that it is possible, you need to
psychologically prepare for this. Number two, it will be more
expensive than non narcissistic divorces. Issues such as overlitigation mean

(01:07:32):
that cost overruns will happen, and that means it is
essential you hire a good attorney who understands this strategically
so they can be mindful of their time and your money.
Number three. They may hire an antagonistic attorney themselves, and

(01:07:54):
it can feel like you are fighting two people. Demetria
reminds us that while this can be overwhelming and anxiety producing,
it is your attorney's job to handle the arrogance and
the nastiness of the opposing attorney. You just need to
be ready for it. Number four. She also stresses that

(01:08:16):
people must have realistic expectations about custody and co parenting.
Next in her checklist is the idea that you need
to hire a solid attorney that understands narcissism. If you
are met with pushback like everyone thinks there x as
a narcissist during a divorce all then your concerns may

(01:08:38):
not be taken seriously enough. Find an attorney that hears
your concerns without minimizing them, because if they do not
know what they are up against, the divorce may end
up being more expensive and take longer. She also strongly
encourages clients to work with an attorney that has experience

(01:09:03):
navigating the narcissistic divorce landscape. She also warns against choosing
an attorney that is too passive and assumes things will
just work their way out, but above all else she
encourages trusting your intuition. In my next takeaway, the key
mistakes that Demetria highlighted were that people over engage from

(01:09:27):
the start, don't have a plan, and have the wrong attorney.
This may be the fight of your life, so being strategic, tactical,
and as supported as possible is essential, especially in a
system that doesn't really care if your ex is a narcissist.
In this next takeaway, as part of her pre, during,

(01:09:51):
and post divorce checklist, Demetria strongly encourages people going through
a narcissistic divorce work with a therapist. A lawyer is
not a therapist, and therapy is the place to work
through the strong emotions that this process can bring up. Now,
this takeaway is important. Not everyone can afford to hire

(01:10:15):
an attorney, and Demetria provided information on some resources to
consider exploring. If the narcissistic person has an attorney, you
will need one as well, and working with local pro
bono and legal aid organizations can give you some essential
guidance as you go through this process. So in this

(01:10:37):
next takeaway, when it comes to working through the custody process,
Demetria had three key recommendations. The first was documentation. Documenting
everything and presenting hard data is far more important than
saying this is toxic or the other parent isn't following
the plan. Second was the use of family communication apps

(01:11:00):
that allow you to keep a running record of communication. Finally,
she again highlighted the importance of therapy not just for
the parent, but also for children. And finally, for those
of you not married yet, this episode may actually have
more relevance than you realize. If you don't want to

(01:11:22):
have to get out, then pay attention to how you
come in. People are able to lavish attention on the
minor details of wedding seating arrangements and honeymoon hotels, and
that's fine, but the same level of attention and detail
have to go into talking through and planning what you

(01:11:42):
want a marriage to look like. We've floated the idea
of an informed consent form for marriage, and while that
may not exist yet, there is no reason you can't
explore these issues, uncomfortable though they may be, before you
sign that marriage license.

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Host

Dr. Ramini Durvasula

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Dangers of Divorcing a Narcissist with Demetria Graves