America at a Crossroads with Meghan McCain

From her perch as “token conservative” on The View to viral posts on Instagram, Meghan McCain has long been a favorite lightning rod for liberals and conservatives alike. The daughter of legendary war hero and Arizona Republican Senator John McCain, her last name has been derided by some on the MAGA right who believe a “McCain Republican” is the equivalent of a RINO. But as a staunch conservative, she has no place on the left either. It’s not necessarily an enviable vantage point, but it is a crucial one. As America wades into the unknowns of a second Trump term, we will need to find a way to speak to one another, and McCain has some ideas about how to go about that–and how not to.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question
Megan McCain. First of all, thank you so much for
being here.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh my gosh, Katie, thank you so much for having me.
And I've known you so long and I'm such a
fan of all your work and I'm so gladded to
be here. I actually just saw some clips of an
interview you just did with Jen Zaki that's all over
the internet, and I.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Went to Played eight with a girlfriend over the weekend.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
She was like, I just saw this amazing interview with
Katie Kirk and I was like, I'm going on a
Joe next week.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
So well, you know, I really appreciate you sitting down
with me because, Megan, I know we disagree on a
number of issues, but I don't know about you. I
really don't want to live in a country where half
the population doesn't talk to the other half of the country.
So what my goal today is for you and I
to hopefully model a conversation marked by respect, kindness, and

(00:59):
open heartedness, which really isn't a word, but I think
in a way, I want you and I to be
a bit of a social experiment for our time. So
thank you for doing this, thank you for being here.
We have so much to talk about in so little time,
so I thought I would just dive right in and
ask you about the Instagram post. I'm on Instagram, I

(01:20):
think eighteen hours a day. Sadly, I've got a real problem, Megan,
But I was struck by your post. I think it
was three days after the election, and I'm going to
read the first two paragraphs if I could, and then
we can talk about it. You wrote, I cannot express
how validated I feel about my politics, my values, and
my record of warning Democrats publicly for over a decade

(01:43):
that their elitism, socialism, and overall social insanity is alienating
the country as well as just is incredibly dangerous and
anti American on a policy level. My entire adult life,
I have had abuse directed at me simply for being
a p out strong conservative woman who wouldn't back down.

(02:03):
I've been yelled at in restaurants and socially ostracized almost
everywhere except in conservative circles, been subjected to toxic work
environments beyond comprehension, been accused of being a traitor to
my gender, and more than I have time to write here,
all because I've refused to be quiet, and I am
a Republican woman. You know. I read that, and I wondered, actually,

(02:28):
I don't think I read that many comments because I
think you had just posted it. But tell us a
little bit about the reaction to your post.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, I didn't expect it to like get quite as
much attention as it did. I think it's one of
my most the most comments written on a post ever
except for things relating to my dad when he had cancer.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
It came off afterward.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I have some friends in my life who really didn't
like it, and they thought it was like tonally sort
of not appropriate. But I feel like I was just
really letting off feelings that I've felt for a really
long time, and I don't normally I try and be
like a Christian woman who shows a lot of grace,
But in that moment, I was like, I feel like
I have been warning that a tsunami is coming for
a really long time and been told I'm crazy, and

(03:13):
then the tsunami came, and it's like I've been trying
to tell everybody this is going to happen, and Trump's
gonna get reelected, and people really hate what's going on
in the country, and you know, I've basically been not everywhere.
It's an exaggeration. I'm a little dramatic Katie in general.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
So but I just.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Feel like, you know, I've taken a lot of heat
from a lot of people, and a lot of personal
things have happened to me in the past few I'd say,
like five years, ten years, whatever, And I just was
trying to say that like, if we don't, if we
don't reset in general in the country, that this is
only going to get worse. And I did up my
own podcast with a friend of mine who's very progressive,

(03:56):
and we discussed the post and I was like, sometimes
I ever shout and void person, but in that moment,
just processing the election, I was like, a lot of
things I said were going to happen came true.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
I wondered, Megan, if you could share a little more
about your experience being a conservative woman in media. You
were the token conservative, if you will, on the View
from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one. Can you talk
a little bit about that experience over those four years?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I mean people are always curious about this, and
I understand because there's a lot of like sort of
storied history.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
I did not have a great ending in the show.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Oh I'm really proud of the fact that I'm one
of two hosts in the history of the show that
quit and warsn't fired me and Meredith Viera in the
twenty eight year history. That's pretty cool to leave on
your own fruition. You know, I've been the token conservative
on many shows. I was a contributor on MSNBC. I
did this millennial talk show with our friend Jacob sober
Off in LA and I was always the token conservative.

(04:58):
And for a long time it was fun where I
liked sort of working with respectful people that wanted to
hear my opinion.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
I wanted to hear theirs.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
And then in the era of Trump, things really shifted
where I kind of felt like I was an avatar
for all the hate and anger and frustration about Trump
being filtered onto me. And when I started working at
the show, I was very nervous to work there in
general because it doesn't have a great reputation, but my
dad talked me into it. My dad was like, you
can't not do this. It's a huge platform. It's ABC News.

(05:28):
You know better than anyone the power of network television,
and as time went on in the Trump administration, things
just got progressively ugly or both on the show, on
the content we were making, and then backstage as well.
And in that period of time, I always tell people
I was like not the best version of myself for
a lot of different reasons. I've had fertility struggles. I've

(05:48):
had three miscarriages. I had my first one when I
was on the show. My dad was dying of brain cancer.
I was a caregiver to him. There's a lot of
like drama in my life right at the same time
that Trump was attacking my family publicly, so I I
was just very emotional at the time in general. But
I felt like I wasn't given grace from the people
running a network or my colleagues at the time, and

(06:08):
it's very tragic that it ended the way it did.
I really tried to sort of save myself and save
what I felt like was okay for the show. But
now there's a report out in the New York Post
yesterday that ABC executives are panicking because they don't have
a real conservative person on the show and they're looking
for someone to fill that void. And I was always saying,

(06:30):
you may not like it, but it's an important role
and the demonization of Republican women, I think is there's
a direct through line between how I'm treated or was.
And again this is a broad generalization. There's lovely people
in the media on the left that are very kind
to me. This is just my specific experience on the show. Yeah,
but I think there's a direct line between seeing the

(06:50):
treatment of people like me and Trump now.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
And do you feel like you were just sort of
perpetually disrespected. I have to say I'm not a regular
watcher of the view, but I remember when you were
on and you were outnumbered, and did you feel that
people were open to you or that they automatically attacked
you if you opened your mouth.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
The hardest part about we're here on that show is
actually how bad the leaking in the press was. In
the first two weeks that I worked there, there was
an article in the Daily Mail in the New York
Post about how my nickname on the show was Elsa
the ice Princess because I was an ice bitch.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
That's a direct quote.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
I've been working there, I think ten days at the time,
and I could never have any private experiences backstage without
it automatically going to a tabloid. Interestingly enough, that immediately
ended when I left. And it's hard to maintain any
kind of trust when you're already feeling like an outsider,
and then you have a private conversation saying it's there

(07:49):
was another article I remember because you know you remember
when it's about you.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Oh yeah, believe me. I know the feeling.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
It's horrible.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
It's really horrible to be because I'm you know, I
would love I'm a communicator.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I would love to work things out privately.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
But when you're having a conversation and you're saying it's
so hard to be a Republican on the show, and
then I can always remember when I left the show,
going home or going to dinner with friends, and there
was always like a three hour period of time where
I would be so tense.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
What's going to hit a tabloid about me? That's ugly?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
And it's just it's just not a productive way to
be in any any place. So yeah, and I felt
very misunderstood by people, and it's like it's tragic. Look,
I'm forty, I'm a big girl. I don't regret doing it.
I wouldn't like undo it, but Well, one of the
last conversations I had with them was you really need
to fix this anger and this aggression towards women who

(08:41):
are unlike you, and it, you know, obviously didn't make
any difference at all.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
You know, I know, Megan, your lifelong conservative, but you're
not really a part of the MAGA movement. In fact,
you are what they call in Arizona a McCain Republican,
and that's not necessarily said in a complimentary way these days.
I saw you speak at a woman's conference that I
was also at. Can you talk about what has happened

(09:09):
to today's GOP and the MAGA takeover of the party
and what it's been like for you personally to witness this.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well, I always joke there are dozens of us. There
are dozens of McCain Republicans. That's like a meme from Twitter.
There are dozens of us. Look, I have my personal
reasons for not liking President Trump that everyone is aware of,
and I also have policy and just character reasons for
not liking Trump that a lot of people in the
country do.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, McCain Republicans are thrown around.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
By I just use the example of Carrie Lake, the
woman who ran for governor and lost, and who just
ran for Senate and lost, and she literally said when
she was on the campaign trail, if you're a McCain Republican,
get the hell out, and then she ended up losing
by around I think it was twelve points, which statistically
they're twelve percent of people in Arizona that consider themselves
McCain Republicans. So do that math whatever you want. Right, Look,

(10:02):
it's complicated and it's difficult. I have friends who are
more than likely going to work in the Trump administration,
and I literally had a conversation with one recently where
I was like, I hope your relationship with me doesn't
hurt you. And it's a horrible true and the same
way that like the leftist tribal, the right is just
comparably tribal as well in all ways. And it's sad
and it has been personally difficult and also just politically

(10:25):
bizarre to feel like you've done something wrong because I'm
not a maga kool aid drinking populist and I'm never
going to be.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
And that's okay. Like it, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
I don't think I've done anything wrong, but it certainly
makes you unpopular in a lot of spaces.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Well, why do you think it caught fire in the
way it did Megan? You know that, as you say,
there are dozens of McCain Republicans, you could say the
same thing about you know, Mitt Romney Republican. I guess
what we used to call Rockefeller Republicans. Right. It's so
fascinating how the parties have really been turned upside down.
But why do you think Donald Trump has such a

(11:01):
hold on so many people in this country?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
I mean a lot of different reasons.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
I think the one of the smartest things he's ever
said is, They're not after me, They're after you. I'm
just in the way. And I think there's just a
feeling of a lot of people in the country who
you know, are living paycheck to paycheck, who have been
screaming at the top of their lungs that inflation's killing
them and they can't I have a friend in my
life who couldn't go on a summer vacation this summer

(11:26):
because of the amount of money she was paying extra
and gas and inflation and interest rates on her. I
believe health insurance can't remember sid a health or car insurance,
And you know her husband's gainfully employed. So I think
there was just a feeling that people are not being heard,
the needs of the lower middle class are not being addressed,
and that Trump continues to say I'm an outsider, I

(11:49):
am gonna fight for you, and people believed it. And
I just think there's been a lot of mistakes done
along the way, but from Democrats running for office and
governing in a world they want to see exist and
not the one that actually exists.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know, I have thought about your dad so often,
Megan during this election cycle. I'm sure you think about
him every day, but I was one of many people
who deeply admired him for his character, his service, and
of course his wicket sense of humor. You know, you
talked about personal reasons for disliking President Trump because he

(12:29):
has disrespected your father repeatedly. He said he's not a
war hero because he was captured. I like people that
weren't captured. He was furious when your father was the
deciding vote to not repeal Obamacare. He reportedly was apoplectic
when the flags were flown at half masted after your dad.

(12:51):
I think it's actually half staff if it's on ground
and half masked if it's at sea half staff. After
your dad died, your Dad's specifically instructed he did not
want Donald Trump at his funeral and all of this,
I mean, you loved your dad so much. I love
my dad so much. I can't imagine how painful, honestly,

(13:11):
all of this was for you. So I'm curious, and
You've probably been asked this a million times, but what
do you think your dad would think of Donald Trump's
campaign this go round? He died in twenty eighteen, so
he didn't see this Donald Trump two point zero, which
is kind of Trump on steroids. Actually would he make

(13:34):
of it?

Speaker 3 (13:35):
This is not his style.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
And I think anyone that's ever seen anything that he
ever did he was always so bipartisan and trying to
work with the other side to his detriment. I mean,
he was called a rhino and attacked by people like
Rushlan Ball throughout his entire career. So even when he
was alive, he was sort of the McCain Republican figure
that he is now.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
He would be.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Heartbroken, but he also was stoic in everything. And I
remember when Trump was first elected. I was very scared
because that time I did not I thought he had
a likelihood of winning.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
I didn't think you.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
But then secularly I was like, I don't think he's
really going to pull it off. You know, it's Hillary
Clinton he's ringing against. And I remember the next morning
calling him and he was like, I know what's going on,
Get up and go to your window.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
And I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
And I was living a NewYork and I was still
single at the time, and I went up and looked
out the window and he goes, do you see all
those mother blanking pigs flying everywhere? That's what's going on.
The pigs are flying, that's happening. And he always maintained this,
like really a serbic, dark sense of humor. So I
think he would have maintained his acerbic, dark sense of humor.
But I think he would have been a conscience for

(14:40):
the country and the way he always was. But I
also think that he would have had a I think
he would have been really demonized the way like Amitt
Romney had been.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
And my dad dying gutted me.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
And I always feel like the point in my there's
like before my dad died and after my dad died,
and I didn't become a different person.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
But it just hardens you and ages you.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
When you anyone to brain cancer, anyone who's experienced it,
you just become a different version of yourself. And there's
a part of me that's happy he's not alive to
see all this, because it would have broken his heart
so badly to see the divisions in the country the
way they are.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Also, you know, the discourse, and I use that in
really big air quotes, because one of many reasons I
could not vote for Donald Trump was just the way
he conducts himself and comports himself. And I actually wrote
something and I harkened back to that campaign stop when

(15:36):
someone was trashing Barack Obama and your father defended his opponent.
Let's listen.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
I got to ask you a question.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I do not believe in.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
I can't trust Obama. I have read about him, and
he's not He's not he's a he's an air he
is not.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
No, no, ma'am, no, ma'am. He's a decent family man,
citizen that I just happened to have disagreements with on
fundamental issues. And that's what this campaign is all about.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
He's not. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
I so appreciated this decorum and this character that your
dad always exhibited. I didn't necessarily agree with all of
his policy physicians, but I was so grateful for the
way he conducted himself. I mean, there couldn't be a
greater contrast between him and Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
He's the last of the great ones, I believe. I
think his passing, my husband always says it was a
generational shift. It was like the ending of a very
specific kind of generation that still cared about character and
ethics and morals. And look, he was far from a
perfect person. He would say that to your faith, right,
sure you a million times you would know that, like,
he certainly had his fault.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
But I worship my dad, so.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
That's never You're never going to get me to say
anything really negative. I mean, I see him as a
real person, but you know, you're never gonna get me
to say anything negative about him. But I think one
of the things that I miss the most about my
dad is people ask me all the time is, as
you said, his humor. He maintained such levity in dark
situations even when he was you know, I remember when

(17:21):
he was running for present, it was clear he wasn't
gonna win, and some journalists they don't remember who like
got up in his face and was like, is this
going to be so hard for you? Or are you
in a dark place? And he was like, he was like,
excuse me, I've been through way worse than this. And
you know, obviously what the implication of that is. He
was tortured for five and a half years and he
just always maintained this humor, and humor is gone from

(17:43):
politics in general right now.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Or has been replaced with this kind of weird, sick,
hurtful humor. I think yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
The nagging, punting, you know, bullying humor.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I

(18:25):
was talking to someone recently and I was curious about
your take on this about Lindsay Graham. I don't even remember,
you know, I talked to so many people and I
read it. I read so many things, but you know,
someone said Lindsey Graham always relied or depended on John
McCain to give him a spine, right, And wow, Yeah,

(18:48):
and then after your dad died, he became spineless because
he didn't have someone to look up to like your father.
And of course I'm old enough to remember the three amigos,
you know, your dad and Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham.
And as you watch Lindsey Graham become sort of sycophant

(19:11):
in chief, I mean, what went through your mind.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
I won't associated with him anymore. I don't want to
have anything to do with Lindsay Graham. And there's some
personal animists that he's very well aware of between us
and I just find him, you know, it's he's so
far removed from the person I used to know, and
I know from you know, mutual friends we have, and

(19:35):
I would like to say my mother still associates with
him and my brothers too. This is like my personal choice.
I'm just not comfortable around him because he loves talking
to press too. He like you know, there's very rarely
you can have a private conversation with him that doesn't
end up someplace. And I really, you know, better than
anyone else in your life, you really have to have
people around you that believe in the concept of off
the record, especially people in your personal life, but he

(19:56):
just he will go where power is in whatever form.
And you know, I think he'll get these like short
term dopamine rushes from being associated with Trump, and I
think he'll get this short term. But I always wonder
how he's going to feel at the end of his career,
if this is all worth it, if morphing this way
is all worth it. But maybe he looks at Liz
Cheney and is like, look at her career. You know,

(20:17):
she's out of power and she's demonized by so many people.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
And I don't want to be that.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
So I need to be like Trump and you know,
imitate him and be his best friend. And people all
have to live with their decisions in life and with
their conscience and with their creator. And he disappoints me
on many different levels, and I just I don't.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Want to be around him anymore.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know, you talk about people having serious struggles, economic struggles,
and how that motivated a lot of people to vote
the way they did. And not to put too fine
a point on it, because we sort of talked about
this already, Megan, but it's fascinating to me and actually
I think disturbing to many that Donald Trump's behavior and actions.

(21:01):
He never did anything that was disqualifying, And I wonder
if you could shed some light on why you believe
things like January sixth, which Donald Trump called a day
of love, his conviction by a jury of his peers
of thirty four felony counts, his asking the Secretary of
State of Georgia to find him eleven seven hundred and

(21:24):
eighty votes. His insistence that the twenty twenty election was rigged,
despite the fact that over sixty court cases failed to
find evidence of that. Why do you think all those things?
This is what I'm still scratching my head about. Megan
didn't lead voters to think he was just simply unfit

(21:44):
for office. I mean, and that's just honestly, those are
just kind of the headlines. There are so many other
things underneath those actions that I could have also named.
Why do you think people were willing to turn a
blind eye to so many things that Donald Trump not
only did, but what he stands for.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I think there's a few different answers to this. The
first one is the same friend. She felt sort of like,
I don't know, guilty, but definitely like a little sheepish
telling me she was voting for Trump, and I asked
the same question, and she said, I paid five hundred
dollars for groceries and one hundred dollars for gas this morning.
I like, something has got to change, and I don't

(22:26):
have the sort of I'm not in the same station
in life that you are, with the same kind of
guardrails to have that be my main priority, which I
thought was a very interesting and honest answer. So I
think for a lot of people, as James Carville says,
it's just the economy stupid and they just want change.
I also think people are like very scared about the border,
and very scared about a lot of these culture war issues,

(22:47):
and just seeing the world changing in a way that
they don't like, and they've sort of come to terms
with the fact that the person who's going to change
it comes in this like really morally corrupt and character
flawed package. I also think I had a conversation with
Sean Spicer where he was bringing up the fact that
Bill Clinton is still someone who was on the convention
stage for the Democrat Party, and he's someone who obviously

(23:09):
has we don't need to go into it, but a
lot of you know, sexual I.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Thought, I've thought about that too, but I just feel
like they're not comfortable. I don't think it's the same either, right,
But mister relaying, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, I
thought I've wondered about that as well. The way I
it mets out for me is that it just the
actions are are just you can't compare the two.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
I think also in this election, there are two moments
that I thought really did it for Trump. One of
them was his assassination attempt and the image of him
screaming fight with blood down his face. And you know,
even for me, because I you know, I do not
like him, we are not. I'm not a supporter, I
wrote in not whatever of him, But even for me,
I was like, oh my god, this man is like

(23:56):
even when he's bleeding, he's like, I'm fighting for you.
And I think there was just never a comparably iconic
image for Biden or or Vice President Harris going into
the election, and then I think President Biden calling Republicans garbage.
I really don't think you can underestimate what to impact out.
How I knew a lot of people who dress like
in garbage trash bags at Halloween and put like garbage person,

(24:19):
trash person on their like social media and bios. And
I think if you already think the elites think you're garbage,
then you're not going to believe that they're going to
fight for you.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
If you're trash.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
That's thrown out in your your what you do and say,
it doesn't matter. It's horrible that President Biden did and
Vice President Harris didn't do it. She never said anything
like that, but unfortunately, I think the mistakes of President
Biden hurt her very deeply.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
You wrote in a candidate, I won't ask you who
in my dad you wrote in I'm.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
You know, I know it's so and people are mad.
I mean, people are so mad at me, Katie. I
mean mad that I didn't vote either way. And I
was like, I'm I have such like Christian Gil at night,
and I don't want to I don't want anything, all
my conscience with any of it.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
And I can never vote for Trump. I can't do it.
I could never explain it to my.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Children and tell me why you couldn't vote for Kamala Harris.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
I just policy.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
I really wanted her to give me a reason to
vote for her, and I just felt like it never happened,
and there were some questions that she just couldn't answer.
And look, I'm a pro life, pretty hardcore conservative woman,
and Governor Waltz was a big It was way too
extreme for me. He actually like scared me a lot
more than she did, and why he's very radical on

(25:32):
abortion and his record during twenty twenty George Floyd protests
in Minneapolis, and I felt like he was costplaying as
a Republican to try and get my boot.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
It all felt very phony.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Oh, although I have to point out that Donald Trump
called him and congratulated him for how he handled the
riots in Minnesota.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Right, that's ridiculous. Yes, it's a completely No one represents me.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
But I do think because people would keep asking me,
you know, was she a good candidate? And I was like,
she had one hundred days to do this, and I
think she should be spotted for doing For getting in
the cockpit of a crashing plane and leveling it out
the way she did, I don't know how many other
politicians could have done that. And I actually think that

(26:16):
there are a lot of genuine criticisms of her that
I can get, But I don't think she's this cataclysmic
disaster that she's being portrayed as now.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
I think it's actually pretty unfair.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
I think she, I mean, this is me, and of
course I'm more liberal than Europe, but I thought she
carried herself with such dignity and intelligence. A lot of people,
I understand, have said they think your dad would have
voted for Vice President Harris, but you disagree with that assessment.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, he was like me, you know, I don't think
he would have like, you know, trust her been uncivil,
But I don't think he would have voted for her.
I mean, he never voted for a Democrat that I'm
aware of his entire life, and I just can't really
see that changing. And I also think the Afghanistan JH
withdrawal on the part of the Biden administration would have
killed him.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Would have killed him.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
The images of the people hanging onto the plane and
US leaving translators and allies in Afghanistan to basically fend
for themselves and be killed, it would have He would
have had a nervous breakdown over it, and I think
he couldn't have forgetten that.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
You also feel that Israel would have been a big
factor in his vote.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
He was a huge pro Israel person. That's where I
got a lot of my advocacy from. And also the
Democrats have shifted to They're much more progressive than the
era of the Joe Lieberman Democrat is long gone.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Let's talk about what you wrote after the election. In
addition to your early comments, you wrote, the big bright
side for me is that I agree with President Trump
on probably seventy five to eighty five percent of his
policy positions except the tariffs. Of course, I'm still an
old school physical conservative. So what are some of the
incoming president's policy positions that you feel comfortable with?

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Israel in general, anything having to do with culture war issues,
which I'm sure you know. I don't know your audience,
but I assume they're probably more liberal than mine disagree with.
I just think his emphasis on sort of like I too,
believe that everything in DC is broken and I'm for
radical change. One of the things I want to emphasize,

(28:18):
like my children are fully vaccinated. I'm grateful for vaccines
and doctors, and I would never not vaccinate, Like it's
very important to me. I think anyone who's had a
parent that died of cancer understands how magical doctors are
and they're like, you know, magicians that do miracles every day.
But I too have questions about the food, like what's
happening with our food?

Speaker 3 (28:38):
And the die is being put in our food?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
And you know, why are some things legal in the
You know, why are skittles legal in the United States
and they're not in Europe? Like some of the questions
that the Make America Healthy Again movement has brought up,
I have a lot of questions about I think just overall,
I agree that I think DC needs radical change, and
I don't know if I would have brought it in
this chaotic package, because again, it's sort of like, be

(29:03):
careful what you wish for, but.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Right like and when you burned the house down, what
rises from the ashes? You know? I was just asking
you about sort of some of the policies, and you
were saying you want radical change. One of my followers
asked Megan, how you felt about mass deportation, and I
want to just give this context. President elect Trump recently
announced he would declare a national emergency and will use
military assets to address illegal immigration through a mass deportation program.

(29:30):
His top immigration policy advisor, Stephen Miller, has also said
that military funds would be used to build vast holding
facilities that would function as staging centers for immigrants as
their cases progressed and they waited to be flown to
other countries. But one major impediment to the vast deportation
operation that the Trump team has promised in his second

(29:52):
term is that Immigration and Customs Enforcement or ICE lacks
this space to hold a significantly larger number of detainees
than it currently does. Anyway, I just give that for
the way of background for our listeners. And gosh, I
don't know, you know obviously, and I think your dad
was very involved in trying to address comprehensive immigration reform.

(30:13):
I'm just remembering with Senator Ted Kennedy, who was Yeah,
and that's something that obviously has been sorely needed Megan,
as we know for decades and decades. But I don't know.
When I hear about this and the images it conjures
for me, it seems so inhumane and so cruel. And

(30:34):
I know, you know, I don't know how you felt
about the child separation policy, but honestly, this I am
not an immigrant, and on their behalf, this strikes such
fear in my heart, but knowing again full well that
our immigration system is broken. So I don't know what
are your thoughts.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Well, first, I'm more dubvish than probably the average or
publican on this. I think anyone that's lived on the
border state and you know that people are coming here
because a lot of times they're escaping gang violence, and
you know, just wanting the same opportunities.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Civil war, rights, civil war, you know, all kinds of
abuse like that. I mean, anyway, not to get.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Too dark, but all the things that are ugly and
horrific in the world. I think the second, there are
images of children being ripped from their parents or families
literally being separated. It's one thing to talk about this
in the ether and to talk about on the campaign trail.
I think it's another thing for it to actually happen.
And I am actually curious when they say they're going

(31:34):
to get the military involved. Does that literally mean like
taking our I don't know, army, National Guard and going
in and rounding up people. It sounds obviously very extreme.
I always wish for prudence and calm and to understand
that if legal immigrants in this country are God's children
looking for a better way of life the way so

(31:54):
many of us did. That way of thinking is very
passe when it comes to Republican circles. It's how I feel,
It's how I'm always going to feel. And I have
great trepidation and I wouldn't go so far as to
say fear, but I feel the way you do that.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
How does this work? And what are the images going
to look like?

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Because you know, any mother, it's a dystopian idea to have,
you know, families being torn apart or somehow moved. And
I think that it's going to be a really rough
wake up call for a lot of Republicans that they
actually end up doing this and the reaction of a
lot of Americans. I also have questions about the Hispanic
vote and the historic numbers of Hispanic people they voted

(32:33):
for President Trump that weren't put off by this kind
of rhetoric or this kind of policy. If they will
feel any different if it actually goes into action.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, I don't know. It's just so scary to me,
but we'll see what happens there. I wanted to move
on to the media writ large, which you know, what
is the media anyway these days?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Right?

Speaker 1 (32:56):
I mean, but you wrote in your sub stack. Corporate
news media is a disaster. Here's how I'd fix it.
I agree wholeheartedly. The media is a mess. I think
in some ways it's because of the fragmentation that's occurred
with digital sources. And the good news everybody has a platform.
The bad news is everybody has a platform. That's sort

(33:16):
of how I feel. But you outline some of the
problems in your solutions. I'd love to get your hot takes.
I hope that's not triggering from the view, but on
what you think needs to happen. Because as somebody who's
been in traditional media now is doing my own thing,
you know, I've given this a lot of thought, read

(33:37):
a lot about it. I'm on the board of the
Shorenstein Institute at Harvard, where I just went to my
first board meeting. Obviously this was topic number one, So.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I'm so sorry to be a philistine. What is the
Schorenstein to do?

Speaker 1 (33:49):
So it's named after Jones Schorenstein, who was a journalist.
I think her parents named it. She died of cancer.
And Nancy Gibbs, who I love, used to be editor
of Time magazine, who's a beautiful writer. She is the
head of the Institute now, and she asked me if
I would come and be on the board. So basically,
really it's about media and public policy and how we

(34:11):
fix media. So this has really been top of mine
for me. And I just interviewed Michael Tomaski, who's the
editor of the New Republic. He wrote a big article
about sort of the power and the reach and the
influence of sort of the right wing media industrial complex.
So I've heard sort of his point of view as well.
So I would love to hear sort of what you

(34:34):
think what's gone wrong and how to fix it. And
you have thirty seconds. I'm kidding, my god, You're totally kidding.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
You're Katie Kurk.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
So I feel like you're, you know, your perspective, it's
probably more interesting than mine.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
You're, you know, iconic journalist. You know, I'll give my
hot tape, but would you mind giving me your hot take?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (34:53):
I think that for me.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
One of the things to outline was I really am
sick of the token Republican on panels on like like
seeing an MSNBC. I also don't like the token Democrat
on places like The Five. I you know, have friends
that work on that show and it's a great job.
It's just not my style because I think that the
politics of America is a kaleidoscope, especially like in my
home state of Arizona, they're more independence and libertarians registered

(35:17):
to vote than any other state in the country. And
I think you're talking about the Democratic Party. You're talking
about progressives, more traditional Clinton Democrats, McCain, Republicans, MAGA Republicans,
independence libertarians, Like, that's what America is. And I think
the old trope of just like one person and we
pile on them is very dated. I just know from

(35:38):
my experience. And I talked about this in my sub
stack that and please subscribe to myself stack mcainae that gone,
thank you.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
I just launched it a few weeks ago for substack.
So fun. By the way, speaking of new media, Yeah,
and you.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Know a lot of people are making really nice livings
writing for substack. I think it's an awesome platform for
a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah. I've been really happy there anyway.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Uh, you know, I think for me just having a
different variety of journalists. I don't think it's good to
only come from Ivy League schools and only have progressives
and liberals working.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
I talk about my sub stack.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
How two years into the view, I actually had to
hire someone from outside to be my producer because it
was just too hard to have people who didn't even
you know, sort.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Of like tall secure language. Really.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, So I would just make it much more diverse
in always, and I mean not racially.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Politically, socioeconomically, you know, in terms of geographically. That's one
of the things we talked about at this board meeting,
that diversity needs to include geographic diversity, life experience diversity,
you know, small towns and people who went to community
colleges and just represent, as you said, the diversity of

(36:49):
our country.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I also think respectfully because there's a lot of people
who are you know, have a lot of experience in
media that I really trust and like a lot. Again,
I it's not this not a whole swath, but there's
some people that don't think do a good job, that
I think are just making things worse, that I don't
think deserve the platforms they have. And I would love
to see some new blood hosting some places. And I

(37:13):
just would also love to see there are journalists out there,
there are still true journalists. I mean, this is a
very respectful conversation, Katie. You know, I won't always get
that in different places I go to. And I think
that just having people who are interested in the story
and interested in what's happening in America versus projecting emotion
in the way that is displayed right now is really counterproductive.

(37:35):
I also have been just fascinated by this recent news story,
not to date this podcast, but you know, seeing Joe
and Mika Prasinski talk about how they went to mar
A Lago to meet with Trump. I never thought I
would see that happen. I was fascinated they decided to
do that. Whether it ends up being good or bad
for their career, I don't know, but I thought it
was certainly an interesting signal and symbol that they realized

(37:57):
maybe they've gone too far. And I like them, and
we have a very good mutual friend and they've been
very kind to me. I don't have a problem with Joemika.
I'm just saying I was interested in it.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean my quick take. I mean,
we could talk about this for hours, Megan, but I
wish there would be less fight and more fixing. I
think that journalism has gotten away from really talking about solutions,
and there is so much name calling. But I also
feel that, you know, as the pie became the slices

(38:31):
became smaller and smaller. Right, the model to have ratings
and to get people to watch people had to appeal
to a certain segment of the population. That means that
oftentimes people were getting affirmation instead of information right, and
Kara Swisher calls it engagement through enragement. I blame Fox

(38:53):
News a lot for this because I don't hear a
lot of legitimate criticisms of Donald Trump on Fox News,
and it does feel like a propaganda arm to me
of Donald Trump. I think that MSNBC obviously is talking
to a certain segment of the population, and probably mainstream

(39:13):
media in general is more liberal than conservative. I think
journalists tend to be more liberal thinkers. And I think
it's hard because opinion journalism has kind of taken over
the space right, you don't necessarily have people kind of talking.
But I've also struggled with this megant is that how

(39:36):
do you cover Donald Trump accurately? You know, how do
you search for truth and how do you do fact
based journalism when he traffics in so much misinformation and
therein lies the rub for me, if you point out
the things he says that are just patently false, then
you're automatically labeled as biased. And that is to me

(40:01):
the conundrum a lot of journalists are finding themselves in.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Well, like I felt like a not a crazy person,
but I definitely have this moment of one of the
things I have to do. And I'm a conservative opinion commentator,
so people know what they're going to get from me.
But I'm not someone who drank kool aid and can't
see the forest for the trees in life. And I
had a conversation yesterday about why is it that Matt
gates ethics report isn't something I'm allowed to see when

(40:27):
he wants to hold one of the most powerful positions
in US government. I don't understand why is Speaker Mike
Johnson saying it's irrelevant. Clearly something's in it, it's relevant.
And the amount of people who are saying you're anti Magat,
you're trying to hurt Trump, you're trying you know, you're bad, whatever,
just because I want to know what's in the ethics

(40:48):
report of the very serious allegations against Matt Gates. That's
the part that's when you're talking about On my side,
that's the part that really scares me is getting in
such an echo chamber and such a point that you
feel like there will be social and career retribution if
you say something like that out loud. And I just
feel like, sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight zone,

(41:10):
like the fact that I can't have a conversation about
why I think I wouldn't trust Matt Gates to babysit
my kids.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Let alone be attorney general.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
You know, to a lot of people, that's I'm saying
something very untorn.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Because you're not pledging blind loyalty and fealty to Donald Trump,
which is honestly kind of frightening because that is sort
of the sign of an authoritarian regime taking hold, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
I mean, my first reaction, and I tweeted this when
Matt Gates was chosen, as I was like, am I
going to jail?

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Because I'm not.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I mean, I'm joking obviously, because I'm not a maga person,
but yeah, it's really scary, and he's clearly the choice
is clearly made because Matt Gates is a sick of
fant who will do anything in everything that Trump wants,
and to me, it's dangerous not to have checks and
balances in positions of power. And I've just been surprised
at people like Mike Johnson, who are supposed to be,
you know, by all accounts, a deeply religious man, and

(42:02):
I was told a more normal person in power. And
you know, he's taken the selfie's on the plane, eaton
McDonald's too. And I don't know, I have as much
criticism for my party as I do the left. I
just I you know, people have just been more interested
in my criticism of Democrats recently because of the historic
election loss. But I I really fear the cult of

(42:23):
personality and the amount of power everyone has going forward.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
I really do.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
I really like it's a really anxiety inducing.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
I wanted to read something by New York Times White
House correspondent Peter Baker about what Donald Trump has been
doing since he won the election. Somehow, disruption doesn't begin
to cover it upheaval might be closer revolution. Maybe. In
less than two weeks since being elected again, Donald J.
Trumps embarked on a new campaign to shatter the institutions

(43:13):
of Washington, as no incoming president has in his lifetime,
he's rolled a giant grenade into the middle of the
nation's capital and watched with mischievous glee to see who
runs away and who throws themselves on it. Suffice it
to say, so far, there have been more of the
former than the latter. Mister Trump has said that real
powers the ability to engender fear, and he seems to

(43:37):
have achieved that. Mister Trump's early transition moves amount to
a generational stress test for the system. If Republicans bow
to his demand to recess the Senate so that he
can install appointees without confirmation, it would rewrite the balance
of power established by the Founders more than two centuries ago.

(43:57):
And if he gets his way on selections for some
of the most important posts in government, he would put
in place loyalists intent on blowing up the very departments
they would lead. He's such a good writer, isn't he.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
I'm like, it's very yes, like the movie's grug.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
I mean, do you think that this is what Republicans
want and the people who voted for Donald Trump really want?
I mean, he is going in there with guns flazing, Megan,
like he wants to blow the place up.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Clearly so anyone that's ever made an impulsive decision in
their life, and I certainly have. I have a foot
tattoo to prove it at that moment where you wake
up the next day and you're like, I have the
most hideous foot tattoo. I thought it was cool in
the morning, and I still it's embarrassing. It looks like
a blob. It's terrible, And I feel like, be careful.
What you wish for is very important in this moment,

(44:50):
because I too want I want radical change within the
norm of understanding what radical change can look like. I
do not want the foundations of the country imploded, and
I do not want people to feel unsafe or unheard.
And I think the idea of taking a recess and
not having normal hearings for these people is bat blank insane.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
I know it's a family show. I don't want to share.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
No, this is actually not a family show.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
You guys say bad shit insane. I think it's I
think it's lunacy. I think it is lunacy, and I
think we have a right to know who we are
putting in these places. And again, if the question I
have for people who want to do this in the recess.
What are you trying to hide? What can I not know?
So I'm very fearful of that. I don't think all

(45:35):
the people are going to be destroying things from the
inside out. I certainly don't think Senator Marco Rubio's intentions
or that. I don't think the new head of Transportation,
Sean Duffy, who I know him and his wife very well,
I don't think he's that kind of person at all.
So I do think there's some choices, like Doug Bergham
is a very lovely man from North Dakota.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Those are kind of in the minority, aren't they. Megan,
I mean you look at Pete Hegseth, the Secretary Defense pick.
You've meant Matt Gates where I think people many people
are appalled by that. I think there are significant concerns
about RFK Junior. I know that you said your kids
are vaccinated. I'm curious. I know you had him on

(46:14):
your podcast if you're concerned about some of I haven't.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
I haven't ever before who he was now, or.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
I've never interviewed him. I think I met him once,
you know, when he was primarily an environmentalist with river
keepers and cared deeply about the environment. But no, I
don't run in those circles, Megan, I don't know. I
don't hang out with the Kennedy's, even though I admire
many of them. But but I mean a lot of
people I think the fact that he'll be in charge

(46:47):
of the CDC, the nih FDA, the Centers for Medicare
and Medicaid Service, the Office of the Surgeon General are
very nervous, not only because of his claims that vaccines
are connected to autism, which I mean the MMR vaccine,
which has been disproven, as you know, and the guy
who made those claims lost his medical license as a

(47:10):
result of professional misconduct, you know. I mean, people talk
about the COVID vaccine and there's a lot of I think,
retrospective thinking about what moves were made during COVID. But
you know, whenever people criticize that, for me, Megan, I think, well,
what if all these kids had died, you know, what

(47:32):
if there had been a very different outcome. And I
think it's easy to say you shouldn't have done this,
you shouldn't have done that. You know, science is not
It's an art in many ways, you know, you learn
as you go this was a brand new virus, and
I think that the medical professionals in charge did the

(47:53):
best they could with the information they had. And I
don't know this whole like could have would have show
of stuff I think always gives me pause, And I,
like you, you know, I'm very touched by cancer lost
my husband and my sister, and I have such great

(48:14):
reverence for science and for scientists that it's such an
uffront to me when people trash people like Anthony Fauci
and experts and everyone makes mistakes. I mean, it's just
an imperfect exercise to kind of deal with something like this.
But I don't know. I worry about Rfka Junior, I guess,

(48:37):
is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I understand how he became as popular as he is
because I think, again, like in hindsight, there's a lot
of things that happened during COVID which I would really
blame much more on, like teachers' unions than doctors necessarily,
that really radicalize a lot of women in my life,
a lot, especially moms and young children. And again, like
you said, hindsight's twenty twenty, you know, go back in
our time machine whatever. But I do think what the

(49:00):
things that's really hard for me is the criticism of NIH.
And again I'm not like a bureaucrat. I don't know
the internal workings of NAHE. But what I do know
is that when my dad had brain cancer, there's only
a proton beam, which is this like tiny little microscopic
beam that eliminates cancer like they do the laser outside
of cancer that makes it the tumors like collapse on themselves.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
And I remember that's where.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
We took my dad to get his treatment there in
Mayo Clinic, and I remember at the time being like,
this is like alchemy. This is the craziest The fact
that this exists and this was invented and these nurses
and these doctors can make tumors disappear with this laser
is just the most miraculous thing. And at the time,
I remember talking to so many doctors about the future

(49:44):
of cancer treatment, as I'm sure you have to, and
there's so much when it comes to immune therapy and
stem cells therapy and things that I'm so excited about
and hopeful for.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
And of course AI is going to change the field dramatically.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yes, And I think again the misunderstanding if you've ever
been in a state of sheer desperation which you and
I have been in, just wanting people to fix this
for you and to give you hope. The thankless things
doctors and nurses have to go through every day and caregivers.
I just that's what the problem, the biggest problem I

(50:19):
have with all of this is that science, like you said,
is a practice of medicine. And I mean not to
give you like TMI, but I had to have a
hysteroctopy like two weeks ago, and when it was happening
for people don't know what that is, like the doctor
puts a camera inside your uterist to make sure you
don't have like polyps or anything, and I was like,
this is crazy, and like fifteen minutes I can mind
out if there's anything wrong with my guts, Like what

(50:41):
a what of we're in? And I just feel like
the disrespect towards scientists and doctors and things like that
is very alarming to me. And I'm I continue to
be so grateful for vaccines and.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Well, you know, you know they have saved I look
this up. They have saved and estimated one hundred and
fifty four million lives since night teen seventy four when
the World Health Organization launched its Global Immunization Program. This
equivalent of saving six lives every single minute.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
And as everyone or anyone who you know has my
mother talked about this that you know there are African
nations and places that don't have vaccines.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
Other than food and water, it's the main thing that they.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Want from NGOs and places to go in and help
their communities. And I just think it's a really excessive,
decadent culture that doesn't appreciate what we're given. And when
you hear about like outbreaks of measles and things like that,
it scares the living hell out of me.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
People are worried about polio returning as well. I mean,
given all that we've discussed, so do you feel confident
that RFK is the right person? And by the way,
I agree like chronic health problems are killing Americans, all
these things obesity. I agree what you said about die
but you know there are ways to address these issues

(52:02):
without blowing up the entire place.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
It's not my choice. He would not be my choice.
After I interviewed him. He's a very pleasant and charming man,
but I just it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Of it is just too woo woo for me.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
It's too like, you know, I just really rely on
doctors and scientists who have a lot of record and
has spent their life dedicated to examining and studying health
and medicine. And yeah, I look. I texted my pediatrician
and was like, uh, our vaccine? Am I still going
to to vaccine my kids? Like if he becomes you know,
the head of this, so it's not my choice.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
What did your pediatricians say? Yes?

Speaker 3 (52:42):
He said yes, but it is scary.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I mean, we could get and I asked somebody to
write a piece for us. Jeremy Foulest, who's an emergency
room doctor in Boston who I talked a lot to
during COVID. You know, it is like to leave getting vaccinated,
to make it a choice rather than a mandate, I
think has some serious public health consequences. I was reading

(53:04):
a lot about this, you know, like strong encouragement versus
a mandate and kind of what works better. But if
you don't have heard immunity, it can put a lot
of people in the community at risk. I mean, I'm
not a doctor or scientist, but I worry. I worry
about RFK Junior. But that's me.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
No, I did.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
And I also think just character wise, you know, again
it's not a family show, but you know, he had
some kind of affair recently with a journalist, and you know,
if that's how you're spending your time. I do wonder
about like the focus on the issues of the nation,
and I think, again.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
I'm old fashioned that way too, Like I like my
public officials to keep it in their pants. Call me crazy.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I did too, and I'm but that's but you and
I are in the minority, I guess. But I just thought,
like it's so recent and it was with a journalist,
and you know, I don't want people with high levels
of intelligence and access to you know.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
But there's also of other weird stuff like the bear
cub in Central Park and all sorts of crazy shit.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
I don't want to end this on like a dystope
a note.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
But I got to screen that movie Civil War that
came out last year with Kirsten Dunston.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's about a modern American Civil war.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
I saw it.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
Yeah, I had a very when I watched it.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
I was like sweating, I broke out in hives, and
I was like, this is very realistic, and they filmed
it in the area where I live in, or it's
supposed to be the area I live in, like right
outside DC. And it's not that I think we're going
to go into a civil war, because I don't actually
think it's going to happen, but I worry about the
complete dismantling of everything and what happens next. And I just,

(54:39):
you know, when I get into my very dark place,
I think of Kirsten Dunst in that movie. And again
I don't I don't want to be hyperbolic and tell
you I think we're going into civil war, but I
do worry about you know, there's a lot of good
in our country too, and the foundations of the country,
I think are the greatest foundations of any country in
world history. And to just completely eliminate it, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
I wanted to ask you about another Donald Trump's picks
because she's a good friend of yours, and that's Tulsey
Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Everybody's asking me about her, everybody's out giving me about her.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Really well, yeah, I'm sorry to add to the chorus,
but I know she's your eldest daughter's godmother. But there. Honestly,
I've read a lot of stuff that gives me pause,
and I wonder if you could talk about it. And
those things specifically are that she traveled to Syria and
met with President Asad, the authoritarian president of Syria, whom

(55:34):
I actually have interviewed. The day after Vladimir Putin began
a full scale invasion of Ukraine, she blamed the United
States and NATO for provoking the war by ignoring Russia's
security concerns, and after she was named for her role,
a Russian paper wrote a glowing review saying the CIA
and the FBI are trembling and that Ukrainians consider her

(55:56):
an agent other Russian state. So tell us.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
Yeah, I think one of the reasons.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
So Tolcy and I met about eight years ago, and
we actually met through Van Jones Sann's Van Jones and
I had been very critical of her meeting with Bishar
al Assad and he texted me and was like, you
don't know her, And he texted her saying because she
her campaign had answered in a very intense way and
said you don't know Megan, and he basically like set

(56:25):
us up on a friend date and that lunch our first.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Meeting, I felt so seen by another woman.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
I felt like we were both bonded over what it's
like to be demonized in the media. We both had
at the point gone through fertility issues, and we're bonding
over that. We both felt very alone in so many
media spaces. And I think the main thing that I
know about her, and I know her character, we're very
very good friends. They talked to her almost every day.
The main thing about her is that she wants peace

(56:53):
in all forms, and she will meet with Satan himself
to get it. And I believe that every way she
makes in her life in general is all about trying
to find peace and prevent war. She is a soldier
in the army. I think he's a lieutenant colonel. And
I always thought, if people like Debbie Westerermn Schultz really
think she's a Russian agent, why hasn't the military done
an investigation. I also want to know why Bernie Sanders

(57:16):
has put out tweets saying this is disgusting slur and
defended her against, you know, the accusations that she's somehow
for Russia. One of my dear friends of Vladimir Kara
Murza was actually imprisoned in a Russian gulag for years.
He was, by a miracle helped to be released by
prison exchange with President Biden. And I think the idea

(57:37):
that I would associate with someone who was compromised by
Russia is insulting to me.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
And I also think that I wish everyone.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Would sort of get out of the habit of saying
Russia is involved for everything like Russia Gate, which ended
up being nothing. With President Trump, that doesn't mean we shouldn't,
you know, be very wary of Putin and Russia in general, especially.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
There for some shenan against I think in Georgia with
Russian intelligence during this selection right, there were thirty bomb
threats targeting black voters at a number of Georgia voting
centers that were orchestrated by the Russians. God. So, I mean,
you're right, we can't blame them for everything, but maybe

(58:17):
we can blame them for a lot of things. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
I mean, it's very serious. I would never negate that. Look,
she is someone who evokes very intense reactions on both sides.
I love her very much. I know the person I
trust her implicitly. I was very happy when she was
chosen because I don't. I neither believe those things, and
I think they're pretty absurd. And I also think she's
getting a lot of heat because she's a former Democrat.

(58:42):
But I believe she's going to be easily confirmed, and
I think that people are going to have to come
to terms with the fact that there are a lot
of soldiers like Tulci who have been and including by
the way, both my brothers who have been through generations
of war, who are very war weary and have become
much more isolation in their view of America's role globally.

(59:03):
Tolty and I don't agree on a lot of things.
We're actually very opposite in many ways. You know, she's
like hyper healthy, works out all the time and like
I eat McDonald's. Like we're very opposite in a lot
of ways, but the core values of who we are
are very similar. And I wish people would see this
side to her that I know so well, and I
feel like she never really gets the opportunity to be

(59:25):
seen as anything in this like dimensional way that a
lot of women in politics, particularly on the left, get to.
And they love her very much, and I'm very proud
of her, and I understand that a lot of people
have questions, and I'm not her mouth piece, obviously, but
I just I'm good friends with her, and she's a
really good person and has helped me through a lot
of dark times.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
In my life. So you think she's misunderstood, but you
don't really agree with some of her policies. Is that
a fair assessment?

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Sure, but I agree with more than probably people think.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
But she doesn't agree with mine either, Like we have
health healthy, you know, I wouldn't say arguments, but you know,
we've certainly had many conversations about politics in the past.
But I don't know if you have anyone like this
in your life. I just don't know anyone else who
has been turned into a caricature in the media the
way we both have by a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
And you know, at the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Time, I was working on the view when we first met,
and I just felt really and she would say the
same thing. We just I just felt really connected to her,
and I just feel like I really, really really know her,
I really really know her family, and she's a really
good person.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Well, you bring me to my final question, which is,
how can we have more conversations like this? How can
we have two people who disagree on a lot of issues,
and how we approach and tackle some of the thorniest
problems in our country and have civil, respectful conversations. How

(01:00:54):
can we encourage other people to do this?

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Megan, I mean, I always lead with love in every
part of my life that I'm capable of. I'm not perfect,
and I certainly have still have a temper and I
can still be like whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
But I think age and having kids is true.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
I just want to have be in a world that
I want my kids to be in, and this level
of division is not is not I think tolerable or sustainable.
And I think I'm open to I will talk to
anyone as long as it's respectful. I will talk to
anyone on any side, as long as I know that
there's not going to be screaming and name calling or
anything like that. And I just think you can only

(01:01:30):
lead by example and control how you behave and speak.
And I also think we should reward platforms that have
bipartisan conversations right in this moment, it's actually what I'm
the most interested in listening to across the board. I'm
interested in both sides coming together and discussing where we're at,
and I think the reflection of how bad the ratings
are on MSNBC and CNN right now show that maybe

(01:01:52):
there's an appetite for more, you know, interesting converse, nuanced conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
If people aren't turning news off fall together, right, Some
people just are so burned out on politics and feel
such a sense of despair. I don't know if they'd
even want to listen to our conversation I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
And I have friends like that who just can't even
listen to it anymore. But I'm an eternal optimist. I
really am, and I really hope for the better and
for me the issues I have with President Trump and
the division, I think that you know, and I blame
both sides for the division we're in, But for me,
it's like there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Will only be four years of this, at least for me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
One of the things that has given me solace with
the anxiety I have about the Trump era is that
there is an end point to this. After four years,
he cannot be president again, and at least.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
At least not that we know of, right unless he
tries to change the law, which he kind of suggested
to members of Congress, I don't know what I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
Gonna do about.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
It's like, I'm sorry, we're back in the dystopian.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Sorry for me, and the hypothetical end point has been
has given me solace. And I really think there's a
lot of really interesting people in the Democrat Party that
are really being, you know, amazing figures right now, saying
things I really am responding to and seem to really
get it. So like who I mean, I love Senator Fetterman.
He's my favorite Democrat. Mayor Pete. I saw something uh

(01:03:19):
he did at I believe Harvard maybe you were there
at the same time, talking about the future. And he's
just very I don't agree with his so much of
his policies, but I love his tone.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
It's very calm, it's very like nurturing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
It's very like so intelligent.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Yeah, and he just he he makes me, he relaxes me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I don't know if that sometimes with politicians it's just
like there their area and their their vibe makes you
feel calm. And I think he has a really brave future.
I always have. Who else, Seth Moulton. I think he's
some interesting comments recently, Corey Booker. I still really think
that he's like, you know, very measured and normal and
will work with the other side. There's quite a few

(01:04:01):
I would point to that I think are are you
know that unfortunately the most radical sides drown out the
interesting things that they're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Well, Meghan, I could talk to you for a lot longer,
but we've gone on and on, and I really appreciate
you spending time with me. I've really enjoyed it. I
was looking forward to our conversation and I'm really grateful
for it. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
Thank you, Katie. You're a legend icon.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
And I have a baby podcast where I interview people,
and I was like, there's a reason why Katie herks
Katy Correig this like you are following up doing like
baking questions while research.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
I was like, well, I've had I've had a lot
of practice, Meghan, like forty plus years. I'm sure you're
doing a great job. But again, you have a substack,
and what is your substack called.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Megan McCain dot substack dot com. And I have a
podcast called Citizen McCain, which is very bipartisan too. I've
only since the election, I've only had Democrats on.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
So we'll look forward to listening to those episodes as well.
Thanks Megan, thank you, and give my best to your
mom too. She's doing incredible work.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
She's in Rome and she's never come back. Katie.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
I wanted her to come back, and she's like, that's
all Trump's over, and I was like, we're just going
to live in Rome, Like okay.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
She's just going to come back from Rome that till
it's over.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
She's like she's one of those people and she's like,
come visit me in Rome. And obviously room's incredible, but
I don't know, it's just I think she's just like
she's been more emotionally impacted obviously than anyone, so I
think she's just like peace.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Well, she's done incredible work. Tell everyone what she's been doing,
because I don't think everyone knows.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
My mother.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Haads the World Food Program and she was the Ambassador
World Food Program and then she became the I think
she has an official title, but she leads it and
she focuses on food security and making sure that nations
like Somalia get the food that they need. And literally
every time I talk to her or call her, she's
in a different and she's very dedicated to her work.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
And she's a true humanitarian.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
And I always say, you know, I'm so controversial and
people love me or hate me, but everybody loves my mom.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Like ever she's doing, she's definitely doing God's work. So
thank you, thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. If you
have a question for me, a subject you want us
to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about

(01:06:31):
how you navigate this crazy world, reach out. You can
leave a short message at six oh nine five point two,
five to five oh five, or you can send me
a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.

(01:06:53):
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are
Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
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in the podcast app or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.

(01:07:14):
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