February 6, 2025 • 43 mins
In a live conversation at The Strand bookstore, Bill Gates sits down with Katie Couric to reflect on the moments that shaped his journey in life and technology. Gates admits he doesn’t look back often, but in this conversation, he shares generously about his early life: how his parents’ decision to send him to therapy helped him grow, the unforgettable moment when Paul Allen rushed into his Harvard dorm with the spark that led to Microsoft, and how his initial tech optimism has evolved with time. As we approach the AI revolution, Gates reflects on the unexpected consequences of technology and the ways our online lives have rewired how we think. Shifting to today’s political landscape, Gates addresses the disruption caused by the gutting of key agencies under Trump and Elon Musk, while stressing the importance of finding a path forward. It’s a reflective conversation about growth, change, and navigating the challenges of an evolving digital world.
NOTABLE MOMENTS
(00:53) Bill Gates' Memoir: Early Life and Influences
(01:45) Family and Childhood Reflections
(03:09) Lessons from Card Games and Family Dynamics
(07:30) Rebellious Teen Years and Therapy
(14:55) The Birth of Microsoft
(20:42) Technology's Impact on Society
(23:11) AI and Future Innovations
(25:49) Political Views and Global Health
(36:00) Pandemic Preparedness and Future Goals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
(00:25):
Hi everyone, So happy to be here with mister Gates
and all of you. Very exciting. He's made the rounds already.
He's pretty much been everywhere, so we're very excited that
we have sort of a private ish audience with him.
And as you know, he is autographed a copy of
his memoir for everybody here, so you guys will have
(00:46):
fun reading it and talking about it on your various platforms.
You book influencers. You I know myself about writing a memoir.
How what an intense experience it is looking back on
your childhood, looking back on everything that is influenced you
as you grew And this is really about the first
part of Bill's life. So I'm really excited Bill. I
(01:07):
really enjoyed reading it, and it's the first of three volumes.
Holy cal you have a lot to say, don't you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, first we were thinking I'll just write one, but
then I wasn't covering things in a good way, so
that really just didn't come together. And so it was
eighteen months ago I thought maybe I'll just do my
first twenty five years where I can really focus on
my parents and the great luck I had with friends
(01:39):
and when I was born.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So it starts really with your childhood growing up in
Seattle and goes all the way to your decision to
leave Harvard to commit yourself full time to building Microsoft
into one of the country's most consequential companies. I'm curious,
what did you learn going back in time? What did
you learn about yourself that you really didn't appreciate before.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I don't look back much because the future, you know,
has lots of innovation and things that I'm kind of
rushing and working hard to try and achieve nowadays, mostly
through my foundation work. And so it was only as
I was about to turn seventy later this year that
(02:26):
I thought, no, it would be great to look back.
And you know, I always thought of my parents is
kind of amazing, each in kind of a different way.
But that really grew for me as I went through
this and talked to my sisters, made sure they had
(02:46):
the same views about things. And there are various points
where my parents really made great decisions about sending me
to a therapist or a private school, or give me
an immense amount of freedom and more than I'd say
any kid gets today.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I loved reading about your family tree, but I got
especially a big kick out of your gammy what you
called her your maternal grandmother, and she was kind of
a card shark and a family that was apparently obsessed
with card games. What kind of life lessons did you learn?
I love the fact when you beat her finally, there
wasn't a big celebration. I would have been such so obnoxious.
(03:26):
I would have been jumping around and dancing and you know,
making her feel really bad, But you kind of said
it just sort of went by, but you were still
very proud of that moment, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I mean she won a high percentage of the time,
but she didn't really explain what her state machine was
that you know, as cards go by in coachcard Rumney
or gin or Bridge being the most complicated, but even
hearts there's quite a bit of strategy. And so it
(03:59):
took a number of years when I went from being,
you know, mostly loser to mostly a winner. And I
think she was a little chagrined that I caught on
because she never really explained her secret.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
But weren't they that she really I mean, she really
understood her opponent's hands. What was her secret? Because I
love that you wrote. Card Plane taught me that no
matter how complex or mysterious something seems, you often can
figure it out. The world can be understood.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Well in some of these games simply having an exact
memory for what cards have gone by and you know
what they've picked up. I actually wrote down mathematically optimal
strategy for a number of.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
These things you did.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And you know people weren't that interested in it, but
the fact that if you thought hard enough they were
is the best play. And that it's the subtlety of it.
And so the person who's really spent the time, you
(05:11):
know when you walk into the game you have an
incredible edge.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Your dad, Bill Junior, was a lawyer. Your mom, Mary,
served on the boards of several corporations and nonprofit organizations.
You were the middle kid. You had an older sister
and a younger sister coincidentally the same as your kids, right,
But looking back on your childhood, what quality do you
think you got from each of your parents?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, my dad was mostly just setting an amazing example.
He was always calm, he always knew the answer, He
never acted out of emotion. The world was a predictable
place that you could always think things through my mom.
I spent way more time with because my dad would
(05:55):
go off to work in the morning, and you know,
when he came back, we'd have dinner and talk about
mostly what he was working on. But you know, all
day long, my mom's saying, you know, get up here,
get dressed, keep your elbows off.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
She was kind of a tiger mom, wasn't she a.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Little bit uh? You know, she did it kind of
in an implicit way where when she'd speak about other parents,
she'd say, oh, they must be so disappointed, you know,
their son didn't go to college or that, you know,
he never learned his table manners. And I said to
(06:33):
my mom, you know, you you told me to go
to Harvard, and she said, I know, I never said that,
But then I explained, no, you really did say it.
You didn't have to in this indirect way of you know,
what what your values were. So that was an intense relationship.
You know. I I confused her a bit because I would,
(06:54):
you know, stay in my room and read a lot.
And there were period of years where I was a
bit rebellious and not really thinking.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
You write a lot about the tension between the two
of you. You say I could go days without speaking,
emerging from my room only for meals in school. Call
me to dinner, I ignored. You tell me to pick
up my clothes. Nope, clear the table. Nothing built, no offense.
But you sound like you were a real asshole.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There were there were about two years where a lot
of I thought.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
He would crack a smile at least at that. It's
just like, I.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Don't think I did any permanent damage. But eventually they
sent me to a therapist and he, you know, really
got my trust and gave me a bunch of books
to read, and you know, just kind of explained that
putting my energy against uh my parents, mostly my mom,
(07:59):
you know, that was kind of a waste of my
time and that there wasn't any you know, grand victory
to be had there because they were on my side,
and that really was super helpful, and so I gave
up all that you know, non compliance.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
See also doctor Cressy was his name. He could get
your parents some good advice and that was basically a
little to their dismay. You know, you talk about in
the book to give you more freedom, right to kind
of let you be yourself, and you found that freedom
(08:39):
through hikes with a group of how shall I say it,
fellow nerds, and I was amazed that you got through one.
I loved reading about this one miserably cold hike that
you know, you guys were up to your knees or
maybe even higher in snow. It was just horrible conditions
and you got through it by writing code in your
(09:01):
head for hours. Tell us about that and how kind
of you had this alternative reality in a way that
helped you cope.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, the Pasitting Northwest where I grew up, there were
a lot of great hikes, and through Boy Scouts, I
got in with the group where we took a lot
of hikes. I wasn't hiking so much that I love,
but just having this different group of friends and kind
of challenging ourselves all.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Took on different roles, Like you were the fire builder, right.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right. I wasn't a great hiker. And in fact, the
day where I did this software work, they had all
out voted me to take the long route because they
thought it was more scenic or something. And we carried
these very heavy packs and I was pretty scrawny, so
you know, in order to just not dwell on the
(09:57):
rain or the switchbacks. You know, I started thinking through
a very complex piece of what's called the Basic Interpreter
that almost three years later, I drawn that knowledge for
Microsoft's Area first product. But the idea of really good software,
it's kind of elegant, how small and fast it can be.
(10:20):
So I really put my mind to that, and you know,
spent about five hours really making it one of the
best piece of software I ever wrote.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And that took your mind off the miserable condition.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, then I didn't notice all those switchbacks that we
were going up and down.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know. You also write that if you were growing
up today, you'd likely be diagnosed as autistic, and I
thought it was interesting that you said you often rocked
when you were sort of concentrating, and it's something you
still do today when you're deep in thought or focused
on something. When did you realize that this might be
the case, that you might beyond the spectrum in some way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, when I was growing up, that term just didn't exist.
I mean, autism was a pretty narrow definition in terms
of not ever developing full social skills. And it wasn't
until I was an adult in a Q and A
session and somebody said that, you know, maybe I was
(11:24):
rocking at the time, and I thought, well, that's interesting.
You know, I don't want to say no, because you know,
what am I doing saying that I'm better or that
would be awful or and then you know, some of
the things do fit my social skills. We were slow
to develop that ability to concentrate for you know, hours
(11:48):
on end, you know, read more books than the other kids,
you know, which ended up being a strength that's very
characteristic of that type of mind. So you know, it
wasn't like some deficit for me, even though some things
I had to work hard to to get decent.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And the fact you acknowledge that you're you talk about
your neurodiversity and you say it was also a superpower, right,
I mean talk about that some of these qualities that
might be seen as you know, as I said, on
the spectrum or differently abled or whatever, actually work to
your advantage.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah. Well, that term nerd, you know, you never know
that it's being used as a positive or a negative.
When I was growing up, it was kind of a
negative about you know, young boys like me who would
uh just go off and obsess about programming or any
kind of technical thing, and that you know we were boring,
(12:52):
uh and not important, you know, then eventually became oh
you're a nerd. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I think it's a compliment. I think it means like
a brainiac, but probably not not a player. You know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Okay, well that's I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
You'll accept that.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Definitely. It's definitely specializing and wanting to read a lot
about something, which in my case included learning how to
write software. At a time where computers were very expensive
and it was very rare for people to have time
on them. Through a series of experiences, each of which
(13:34):
kind of built on the last, I got feedback about, Okay,
here's how you write even better software. So even by
the time I graduate from high school, I've had thousands
of hours and with my intense focus, you know, I
knew a lot about software and simultaneously the magic of
(13:57):
these chips microprocessors making computing go from being very expensive
almost free. Uh. You know, with the help of Paul Allen,
we can see, Hey, the software stuff is going to
be the key ingredient. He wanted to do a company.
We actually did the hardware, but I insisted we just
(14:19):
do the software, and that you know, we were in
the right place at the right time, and and you
know built because of that. Other people just didn't didn't
see what we saw.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Before
(14:59):
you to Harvard, you had a defining moment in your life.
You say, unlike a lot of successful people, you had
a relatively easy childhood. I mean taking out the part
of giving your mom a hard time. But you know,
you suffered the loss of your very, very good friend,
and you write about it quite movingly. Kent Evans. He
(15:22):
was killed in a mountain climbing accident when the two
of you were sixteen years old, and I'm curious if
you could talk about the impact that had and how
it changed your perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah. So when the computer arrives at this school, Lakeside School,
there's four of us, My best friend Ken Toy talk
to every night, and these too older boys, one of
whom was Paul, who we stayed there even after it
wasn't exciting anymore. We were just really obsessed.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You would say, out to your house to go to
the computer lab.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah nights, yeah, yeah. And so Kent, you know, was
very outward looking. You know, he had looked up what
did generals make, what did ambassadors make? What did professors make? Uh?
You know, he got me reading Fortune magazine, you know,
and so he had this sense of, Okay, what we
(16:19):
need to think now on what we're going to be
doing later. And that was a revelation to me. And
I'd been a bit of a goof off and he
encouraged me not to be so lackadaisical because he was
very diligent in everything he did. You know. So we
(16:39):
were thinking, okay, we're gonna go out there and solve
big problems together. And he signed up for a mountain
climbing class in our junior of high school. Uh. He
was less coordinated than I was, so nobody expected that,
but his parents kind of went along because Kent had
strong views about things, and you know, he we talked
(17:04):
on a Friday night like we always did, and he
was going to be gone for the weekend. And then
that Sunday, they head master of the school called me
and said that not only kn't been injured, but he'd
actually died, which you know, when you're at that age, okay,
grandparents maybe, but you know, people your own age are
(17:25):
kind of invulnerable, and so that was quite a shock.
You know. The only thing that got me, you know,
back thinking for was, you know, when I would spend
time with Kent's parents. You know, it was kind of
an irreparable loss for them. They he was amazing to
them and to me, and so you know, I was
(17:49):
lucky that all those things Kent had taught me, you know,
I could go back and do. In fact, I that
summer I had committed to do a very complicated piece
of soft for school scheduling. So I called Paul, who'd
gone off for a first year of college, and then
he came back and that's sort of where he and
(18:09):
I spent a lot of time together, and you know,
eventually that led to us founding Microsoft about three years.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
In fact, there's a scene in the book where Paul
Allen bursts into your dorm room at Harvard holding the
January nineteen seventy five issue of Popular Electronics with this
headline project breakthrough world's first mini computer kit to rival
commercial models, And he said to you it's happening without us.
That was a real kick in the pants for both
(18:39):
of you, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'd made I'd help Paul get a job back
in Boston. So he was on leaven We were just
brainstorming all the time about this insight, about how magical
these chips were and what they would do and you know,
different ideas, and just stunned that other people didn't see
(19:01):
how big this would be. But still thinking through, Okay,
what was our role in all of it? And so yeah,
when he bought that magazine at Harvard Square and you know,
it's a cold Boston winter, and we said, okay, we
are going to be in on the ground floor. And
now it's happening. And so even though I loved my
(19:22):
time at Harvard, you know, that's when I had to
make the plan. Okay, I'm about to.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Go on unless your mom bummed out that you quit Harvard.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Well I didn't quit. I mean you go on leave.
You know, so if your company fails, you know, they
don't like shun you. Oh you had a failed company,
or oh you were gone for a year. It would
have been fine. You know, I didn't have you know,
kids to support or anything like that. And you know,
(19:54):
my computer skills were quite valuable, so I didn't think
of it as risky at all. She might have been
a bit worried about it, because she always wondered if
I was taking the wrong turn that she needed to
advise me on. But you know, we started small, and
(20:18):
then a few years later, at the end of the
book is when I'm nineteen seventy nine, I've decided to
move Microsoft back to Seattle, and you know, we only
have about eighteen people, but we're on our way to
be sort of the software.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And the book ends when you're around twenty three. You
get into your Porsche. Nice nice ride for a college kid.
By the way, oh, I was a used nine eleven,
and you headed back to Seattle, as you said, to
build Microsoft. But now fifty years later you've said you're
thinking of quote digital empowerment as an unadulterated good has changed,
(20:57):
And I'm curious back then, Bill, if you ever envisioned
technology being as transformative and as negative a force in
society in some cases that it's become.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
In the early days, it felt like a pure, unadult,
traded good thing that you could type documents and do
spreadsheets and communicate with people all over the world, and
it was just Okay, humans do good things, and now
we're going to do them faster and better. And so
(21:37):
that naivete I keep that literally until social networking comes along.
In fact, we thought the biggest problem with computers was
that not everybody had access, So we need to make
them even cheaper and get them into the inner city
and get them into developing countries. So this digital divide
(21:58):
was something that I worked on, you know, putting computers
in libraries, and Microsoft also did a lot on that.
Only later did the idea that some of these technologies
can actually accentuate human weakness, and you can get people
who believe crazy things that normally would have to kind
(22:20):
of give it up because they can't find each other.
But now, boy, they have found each other. You know,
for crazy idea A, they've got a quorum. For crazy
idea B, they've got a quorum, and all day long
they're enjoying being off in that you know, sort of
non nonfactual but self reinforcing group. You know. So yes,
(22:43):
it's only maybe ten years ago that that became clear.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So is disinformation the biggest peril? Do you think to
modern technology or what about sort of I'm sure you've
read Jonathan Height. I just forgot his name. Wait, thank you,
SJO Anxious generation? What most concerned you about technology? And
while we're on the subject, how do you feel about AI?
(23:08):
Is that something you're excited about or more concerned about?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, I'm extremely excited about it, but it's a little
bit scary in terms of how we're going to end
up using it. It is way beyond anything that's come before.
You know, the revolution I was part of is about
computing going from being expensive to basically being free. Okay,
(23:35):
what do you do with it? Now? It's about intelligence
going from being scarce and you have to go to
college and learn all these things because we have a
shortage of engineers or doctors or whatever, and now intelligence
will be essentially free. We're not there yet. We don't
(23:58):
have robots. The accuracy of these machines h still kind
of surprise us. That they make mistakes that are very
different than the kind of mistake humans make. So there's refinement,
but it's happening quite quickly. So when you think about
today's problems, you know, climate Alzheimer's, HIV, vaccine, AI is
(24:24):
phenomenal in that it will accelerate those advances. You know,
we will have medical advice for people in poor countries,
will have great advice for farmers about when to plant
what to plant, better than even rich farmers have today.
But overall for society as it you know, changes job
(24:46):
markets and hopefully frees up time. Exactly who benefits or
how government adjusts to it, and how you know, people
with negative intent use these new tools, I'd say it's
a cloudier future. And and so AI brings wonderful advances
(25:07):
and some challenge for humanity. You know. Harari in nexas
says that we need to put AI aside and learn
how to get along with each other, and then we
should turn to this wonderful magic box since we'll be
mature enough to use it the right way. You know,
(25:30):
that's not likely to happen. So we've got, you know,
a need to get everybody involved in thinking through how
do we want to shape.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Well, that's a great segue to my next question. I
thought we could talk about politics because there's nothing really
going on in that department. What did you think when
you saw this whole row of tech bros at the
inauguration front and Center. What did you say to yourself
when you witness that?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
You know they make their own decisions.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
You must have thought something though when you saw that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
No, I wouldn't have predicted it. And yet, you know,
when you have a new administration, you know they're gonna
wield a lot of authority, including over those companies. You know,
I'm I'm not really in their game anymore. My focus
is the foundation work. So you know my mindset isn't
(26:33):
quite Okay, let's defend.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Were you invited for the inauguration?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I bet I could have been there, I mean, I
think so, but it was fine. I had been there
recently for Jimmy Carter's funeral.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's it. Yeah, okay. These same tech billionaires made major
contributions to Trump's inauguration fund. Meta, Amazon, Google, your very
own Microsoft all donated one million dollars. Sam Altman and
(27:20):
Tim Cook both reportedly also made one million dollar donations personally.
So did you donate anything to Donald Trump?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I didn't. I thought it looked like a well funded inauguration.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
They don't need my money.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No. I saved it for HIV and malaria eradication.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
You did, though, have a three hour dinner with Donald Trump.
I know, I suddenly feel like Mike Wallace here. I
don't mean to. I don't mean to anyway.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I know you had dinner with Donald Trump. It was
three hours long. It was at the end of December.
You described that dinner as quite intriguing and wide ranging,
and that he showed a lot of interest in the
issues that you brought up. He's been president for just
over two weeks, and as you well know, there's a
lot of concern about a whole slew of things he's doing,
(28:36):
from firing inspectors general at a variety of agencies to
stop corruption, etc. To the mass deportation of immigrants, to
blaming the tragic airplane crash in DC on DEI given
the conversation and given your experience having this dinner with him,
are you surprised at some of the actions he's taken
(28:58):
so quickly?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, things are moving fairly quickly. And you know, the
area that I have real expertise in includes the foreign assistants,
the USAID work, and things like pepfar where the US
government has been incredibly generous and saved tens of millions
(29:24):
of lives. And so when I saw President Trump, you know,
I said, let's maintain this generosity and let's accelerate innovation.
And we don't have an HIV vaccine, we don't have
an HIV cure. If some of the same things that
were done in Project Warp Speed during the pandemic could
(29:45):
be applied in those areas, the chance of getting great
new tools is pretty exciting. And so I asked for
his support in that and said that, you know, in
the meantime, we should continue to provide those medicines. What's
happened so far in terms of personnel and grants may
(30:06):
disrupt that. And so you know, I'll be a strong
voice saying, you know, even if you have to, you know,
change the name of the organization. You know, maybe there's
ten percent of these programs you don't support. Let's not
take the incredible talent and impact and through very abrupt
(30:27):
actions largely by people who don't know this agency and
may have just heard about you know, one percent here,
you know, went to something they don't like. So the
next few months, you know, I expect to provide the
best advice I can because I think the US should
(30:49):
be proud of what it's done, starting with President Bush.
But on a bipartisan basis up until now.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Will you call Elon muss because as the head of
DOGE or whatever that agency is, he's made moves, as
you know, to shut down USAI D He says, quote
with the blessing of President Trump, and on his platform
X he called the government agency evil and a viper's
nests of radical left Marxist who hate America America, adding
(31:18):
that it was time for it to die. We got
so many questions Bill for you on threads, my followers,
And do you think that Elon Musk, or for that matter,
Donald Trump, after you all had that three hour dinner
and talked about the important work that organizations like this do,
(31:38):
do you think anybody's going to listen.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I'm very hopeful that the Secretary of State Mark Rubio,
who was in Africa and saw this great work, and
President Trump will work to preserve the bulk of what's there.
Whether that named agency stays in place, you know, whether
(32:02):
every program does. But you know, an abrupt ending of
that work would really put to the test. You know,
is it in the value of Americans to take half
percent of the budget and keep tens of millions of
Africans alive or have we sort of overnight decided that
that half a percent shouldn't be spent that way? And
(32:24):
it is a political question. You know, I have a
clear point of view. I know great people in that area.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It's not just Africa, by the way, it's all over
the world.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It is it is. It's mostly the benefits of that
work of USAAD broadly are our global The HIV work
because of the nature of the epidemic is about eighty
percent in Africa. And the things USAID funds I fund
with billions of dollars, and you know, I'm very careful
(32:53):
to make sure that money is well spent. And so
I think naively people hear the most random purnade things
and think, okay, it's all like that. So I have
a challenge to say to Americans, is this in your
value system? And you know, does it benefit our security
(33:15):
or our moral example to keep these programs going? And
you know, I think people at both parties will find
this a deeply moral and important thing to keep strong.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Now, comment on some of the other moves that Trump
has made with Inspectors General kind of using weaponizing DEI
I'm just curious how you're feeling, is you're watching all
of this unfold.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Well, in some ways, you know, there's not that much
that wasn't predicted mentioned during the campaign, And although.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He distanced himself from Project twenty twenty five and now,
according to Time magazine, two thirds of the things he's
done are actually in adherence with Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
You know, I'm you know, there are people in the
Democratic Party who will speak out on these things. I'm
you know, I'm taking my fortune and trying to partner
with governments, and the US government being very key, so
I'll mostly speak out about those areas where I have
you know, real experience. I've gotten to visit the projects,
(34:29):
I've gotten to meet the heroes, and I'm still you know,
hoping we can strengthen rather than we can that those
those projects.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I want to ask you about RFK Junior, because obviously
that's kind of in your laying. His nomination passed the
Senate Finance Committee to advance to the floor bill. Do
you think he should be Secretary of Health and Human Services,
given especially your incredible work with vaccines and given some
(35:02):
of his, uh, you know, past statements about not only
their efficacy but about their safety.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
You know, I I've only had one meeting with him,
which actually goes back to the first Trump administration, and
you know, it looks like he will get confirmed. Uh,
he'll be in charge of some other parts of the
government that do amazing work. You know, we have the
(35:32):
best drug regulator, the FDA, we have the best health
research the NIH. He'll be in charge of those things.
And uh, you know, so I hope to find common cause,
including you know, working to have more vaccines. You know,
we we don't have a vaccine for TB or HIV
(35:54):
in malaria, and there's some incredible work that even in
the next four years with Lucke, we'll get a number
of those tools.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You have predicted that the chance of another pandemic in
the next four years is between ten and fifteen percent,
and that we're absolutely not prepared for it. I'm curious
why you think global leaders are not taking this threat
seriously enough. This has sort of been the case for
pandemics for a while, even after COVID. Seems like we
(36:29):
haven't put the infrastructure in place to deal with something
like that happening in the future. And I'm curious why
you think that's the case.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, there are countries like China and India that are
actually doing some great things.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
But I guess maybe than in this country.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
We would make them more ready for the next pandemic.
US is kind of strange because we're still kind of arguing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
About where the virus came from.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
You know, no, well that too, but even you know, okay,
in the end, at the end of any emergency action
like that, you realize, okay, now we've gone too far
and the remedy is greater than the benefit. And so
you know, when should we have known that? And whose
fault was?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
The vaccine saved millions of lives and President Trump was
involved in accelerating the availability of that vaccine, similar things
should be standing by for the next pandemic, And so
I'm hopeful that we'll sort of put that one behind
(37:33):
us and come together around what preparation looks like. The
world is more dependent on the US doing a good
job on this than it should be, you know. It
really the depth of medical experience, the size of the
American budget, you know, and we need to do it
on a cooperative basis. So with luck, we'll get our
(37:58):
act together before the next one comes, because it could
be far worse that pandemic you know, killed less than
one percent. Now that's millions of people, but you could
have one that would be you know, greater than ten percent.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Could you see yourself getting more involved in pandemic preparedness
and kind of trying to galvanize all these people who
have such a depth of knowledge but don't seem to
be particularly coordinated.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, I wrote a book about how to avoid the
next pandemic, but.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I mean actually instituting sort of more of a plan
or is that not really that interesting?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Well, if the government was putting together a group of
people on that, either I or you know, the the
deep experts at the Gates Foundation would love to be
part of that. You know, this is a multi country
thing because the pandemic is likely to start in either
(38:59):
a your Africa. And the best thing with the pandemic
because you stop it. You have functional health systems in
Africa that see it, detect it, and don't let it
go global. And that's partly an additional benefit besides what
I think should justify it by itself, which is the
(39:21):
moral idea of saving lives. And so yes, if the
world gets serious about this, you know I think about it.
I have great people outside of the pharma companies, we
have the greatest depth of vaccine expertise and so you know,
(39:42):
whenever you want to think not just about the market
incentives but societal benefit, that's where we have a team
that can make a contribution.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
As you mentioned, I have so many questions, but we're
running out of time. But you mentioned you're going to
be turning seventy. I guess in October, right. And my
husband always says, I'm not even on the back nine.
I'm on the back three, which is so so sweet
of him. But as you as you approached the big
(40:11):
seven to zero, I mean, what are you thinking about?
What do you want to accomplish bill that you have
yet to accomplish because you're always I think, striving to
do more.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, most of my time is being smart about giving
the money away that I'm lucky enough to have and
building a phenomenal team of people at the Gates Foundation.
You know, global health is the thing we've picked, and
so far it's gone very well, you know, because of
(40:46):
our partner's generosity with the US government being top of
that list, have allowed us to get childhood under five
deaths from ten million a year. At the turn of
the century now down to blow five million. If we
stay the course, we will be able to cut that
in half again. You know. So for me, eradicating polio
(41:09):
where we're close but uh not there yet. Uh, then
moving on to eradicate musles and malaria, and to get
kind of an equity where child's life in these poor
countries is also valued, where they get the nourishment to thrive. Uh.
You know, it's very fulfilling work. And the innovation pipeline,
(41:32):
that's a very positive story. The delivery pipeline where the
world is getting distracted. Uh, and we need to renew
our values and commitment to these things. That look that's
looking tough at least in the near term, but uh,
you know, the innovations are going to come and you know,
(41:53):
eventually I think uh people will come back uh and
and do this just on a your value based.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
You're never going to retire, You're never going to sit
on a beach and drink pina coladas.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Well, as long as I think my organizing teams and
challenging teams really can help drive these things forward, that
is the most fun thing for me to do. And
you know, do I have ten more years or twenty
more years of doing that hard to say, but for
(42:27):
now I'm full speed ahead.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Well Bill Gates. The book is called source Code My Beginnings.
Thanks so much, Bill, fun talking to Thank you Fair,
thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a
(42:52):
question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM
on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next
Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media.
The executive producers are me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.
(43:13):
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are
Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
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in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.
(43:34):
You can also find me on Instagram and all my
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favorite shows.
Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
(00:25):
Hi everyone, So happy to be here with mister Gates
and all of you. Very exciting. He's made the rounds already.
He's pretty much been everywhere, so we're very excited that
we have sort of a private ish audience with him.
And as you know, he is autographed a copy of
his memoir for everybody here, so you guys will have
(00:46):
fun reading it and talking about it on your various platforms.
You book influencers. You I know myself about writing a memoir.
How what an intense experience it is looking back on
your childhood, looking back on everything that is influenced you
as you grew And this is really about the first
part of Bill's life. So I'm really excited Bill. I
(01:07):
really enjoyed reading it, and it's the first of three volumes.
Holy cal you have a lot to say, don't you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, first we were thinking I'll just write one, but
then I wasn't covering things in a good way, so
that really just didn't come together. And so it was
eighteen months ago I thought maybe I'll just do my
first twenty five years where I can really focus on
my parents and the great luck I had with friends
(01:39):
and when I was born.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So it starts really with your childhood growing up in
Seattle and goes all the way to your decision to
leave Harvard to commit yourself full time to building Microsoft
into one of the country's most consequential companies. I'm curious,
what did you learn going back in time? What did
you learn about yourself that you really didn't appreciate before.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I don't look back much because the future, you know,
has lots of innovation and things that I'm kind of
rushing and working hard to try and achieve nowadays, mostly
through my foundation work. And so it was only as
I was about to turn seventy later this year that
(02:26):
I thought, no, it would be great to look back.
And you know, I always thought of my parents is
kind of amazing, each in kind of a different way.
But that really grew for me as I went through
this and talked to my sisters, made sure they had
(02:46):
the same views about things. And there are various points
where my parents really made great decisions about sending me
to a therapist or a private school, or give me
an immense amount of freedom and more than I'd say
any kid gets today.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I loved reading about your family tree, but I got
especially a big kick out of your gammy what you
called her your maternal grandmother, and she was kind of
a card shark and a family that was apparently obsessed
with card games. What kind of life lessons did you learn?
I love the fact when you beat her finally, there
wasn't a big celebration. I would have been such so obnoxious.
(03:26):
I would have been jumping around and dancing and you know,
making her feel really bad, But you kind of said
it just sort of went by, but you were still
very proud of that moment, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I mean she won a high percentage of the time,
but she didn't really explain what her state machine was
that you know, as cards go by in coachcard Rumney
or gin or Bridge being the most complicated, but even
hearts there's quite a bit of strategy. And so it
(03:59):
took a number of years when I went from being,
you know, mostly loser to mostly a winner. And I
think she was a little chagrined that I caught on
because she never really explained her secret.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
But weren't they that she really I mean, she really
understood her opponent's hands. What was her secret? Because I
love that you wrote. Card Plane taught me that no
matter how complex or mysterious something seems, you often can
figure it out. The world can be understood.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Well in some of these games simply having an exact
memory for what cards have gone by and you know
what they've picked up. I actually wrote down mathematically optimal
strategy for a number of.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
These things you did.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And you know people weren't that interested in it, but
the fact that if you thought hard enough they were
is the best play. And that it's the subtlety of it.
And so the person who's really spent the time, you
(05:11):
know when you walk into the game you have an
incredible edge.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Your dad, Bill Junior, was a lawyer. Your mom, Mary,
served on the boards of several corporations and nonprofit organizations.
You were the middle kid. You had an older sister
and a younger sister coincidentally the same as your kids, right,
But looking back on your childhood, what quality do you
think you got from each of your parents?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, my dad was mostly just setting an amazing example.
He was always calm, he always knew the answer, He
never acted out of emotion. The world was a predictable
place that you could always think things through my mom.
I spent way more time with because my dad would
(05:55):
go off to work in the morning, and you know,
when he came back, we'd have dinner and talk about
mostly what he was working on. But you know, all
day long, my mom's saying, you know, get up here,
get dressed, keep your elbows off.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
She was kind of a tiger mom, wasn't she a.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Little bit uh? You know, she did it kind of
in an implicit way where when she'd speak about other parents,
she'd say, oh, they must be so disappointed, you know,
their son didn't go to college or that, you know,
he never learned his table manners. And I said to
(06:33):
my mom, you know, you you told me to go
to Harvard, and she said, I know, I never said that,
But then I explained, no, you really did say it.
You didn't have to in this indirect way of you know,
what what your values were. So that was an intense relationship.
You know. I I confused her a bit because I would,
(06:54):
you know, stay in my room and read a lot.
And there were period of years where I was a
bit rebellious and not really thinking.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
You write a lot about the tension between the two
of you. You say I could go days without speaking,
emerging from my room only for meals in school. Call
me to dinner, I ignored. You tell me to pick
up my clothes. Nope, clear the table. Nothing built, no offense.
But you sound like you were a real asshole.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There were there were about two years where a lot
of I thought.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
He would crack a smile at least at that. It's
just like, I.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Don't think I did any permanent damage. But eventually they
sent me to a therapist and he, you know, really
got my trust and gave me a bunch of books
to read, and you know, just kind of explained that
putting my energy against uh my parents, mostly my mom,
(07:59):
you know, that was kind of a waste of my
time and that there wasn't any you know, grand victory
to be had there because they were on my side,
and that really was super helpful, and so I gave
up all that you know, non compliance.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
See also doctor Cressy was his name. He could get
your parents some good advice and that was basically a
little to their dismay. You know, you talk about in
the book to give you more freedom, right to kind
of let you be yourself, and you found that freedom
(08:39):
through hikes with a group of how shall I say it,
fellow nerds, and I was amazed that you got through one.
I loved reading about this one miserably cold hike that
you know, you guys were up to your knees or
maybe even higher in snow. It was just horrible conditions
and you got through it by writing code in your
(09:01):
head for hours. Tell us about that and how kind
of you had this alternative reality in a way that
helped you cope.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, the Pasitting Northwest where I grew up, there were
a lot of great hikes, and through Boy Scouts, I
got in with the group where we took a lot
of hikes. I wasn't hiking so much that I love,
but just having this different group of friends and kind
of challenging ourselves all.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Took on different roles, Like you were the fire builder, right.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right. I wasn't a great hiker. And in fact, the
day where I did this software work, they had all
out voted me to take the long route because they
thought it was more scenic or something. And we carried
these very heavy packs and I was pretty scrawny, so
you know, in order to just not dwell on the
(09:57):
rain or the switchbacks. You know, I started thinking through
a very complex piece of what's called the Basic Interpreter
that almost three years later, I drawn that knowledge for
Microsoft's Area first product. But the idea of really good software,
it's kind of elegant, how small and fast it can be.
(10:20):
So I really put my mind to that, and you know,
spent about five hours really making it one of the
best piece of software I ever wrote.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And that took your mind off the miserable condition.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, then I didn't notice all those switchbacks that we
were going up and down.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know. You also write that if you were growing
up today, you'd likely be diagnosed as autistic, and I
thought it was interesting that you said you often rocked
when you were sort of concentrating, and it's something you
still do today when you're deep in thought or focused
on something. When did you realize that this might be
the case, that you might beyond the spectrum in some way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, when I was growing up, that term just didn't exist.
I mean, autism was a pretty narrow definition in terms
of not ever developing full social skills. And it wasn't
until I was an adult in a Q and A
session and somebody said that, you know, maybe I was
(11:24):
rocking at the time, and I thought, well, that's interesting.
You know, I don't want to say no, because you know,
what am I doing saying that I'm better or that
would be awful or and then you know, some of
the things do fit my social skills. We were slow
to develop that ability to concentrate for you know, hours
(11:48):
on end, you know, read more books than the other kids,
you know, which ended up being a strength that's very
characteristic of that type of mind. So you know, it
wasn't like some deficit for me, even though some things
I had to work hard to to get decent.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And the fact you acknowledge that you're you talk about
your neurodiversity and you say it was also a superpower, right,
I mean talk about that some of these qualities that
might be seen as you know, as I said, on
the spectrum or differently abled or whatever, actually work to
your advantage.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah. Well, that term nerd, you know, you never know
that it's being used as a positive or a negative.
When I was growing up, it was kind of a
negative about you know, young boys like me who would
uh just go off and obsess about programming or any
kind of technical thing, and that you know we were boring,
(12:52):
uh and not important, you know, then eventually became oh
you're a nerd. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I think it's a compliment. I think it means like
a brainiac, but probably not not a player. You know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Okay, well that's I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
You'll accept that.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Definitely. It's definitely specializing and wanting to read a lot
about something, which in my case included learning how to
write software. At a time where computers were very expensive
and it was very rare for people to have time
on them. Through a series of experiences, each of which
(13:34):
kind of built on the last, I got feedback about, Okay,
here's how you write even better software. So even by
the time I graduate from high school, I've had thousands
of hours and with my intense focus, you know, I
knew a lot about software and simultaneously the magic of
(13:57):
these chips microprocessors making computing go from being very expensive
almost free. Uh. You know, with the help of Paul Allen,
we can see, Hey, the software stuff is going to
be the key ingredient. He wanted to do a company.
We actually did the hardware, but I insisted we just
(14:19):
do the software, and that you know, we were in
the right place at the right time, and and you
know built because of that. Other people just didn't didn't
see what we saw.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Before
(14:59):
you to Harvard, you had a defining moment in your life.
You say, unlike a lot of successful people, you had
a relatively easy childhood. I mean taking out the part
of giving your mom a hard time. But you know,
you suffered the loss of your very, very good friend,
and you write about it quite movingly. Kent Evans. He
(15:22):
was killed in a mountain climbing accident when the two
of you were sixteen years old, and I'm curious if
you could talk about the impact that had and how
it changed your perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah. So when the computer arrives at this school, Lakeside School,
there's four of us, My best friend Ken Toy talk
to every night, and these too older boys, one of
whom was Paul, who we stayed there even after it
wasn't exciting anymore. We were just really obsessed.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You would say, out to your house to go to
the computer lab.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah nights, yeah, yeah. And so Kent, you know, was
very outward looking. You know, he had looked up what
did generals make, what did ambassadors make? What did professors make? Uh?
You know, he got me reading Fortune magazine, you know,
and so he had this sense of, Okay, what we
(16:19):
need to think now on what we're going to be
doing later. And that was a revelation to me. And
I'd been a bit of a goof off and he
encouraged me not to be so lackadaisical because he was
very diligent in everything he did. You know. So we
(16:39):
were thinking, okay, we're gonna go out there and solve
big problems together. And he signed up for a mountain
climbing class in our junior of high school. Uh. He
was less coordinated than I was, so nobody expected that,
but his parents kind of went along because Kent had
strong views about things, and you know, he we talked
(17:04):
on a Friday night like we always did, and he
was going to be gone for the weekend. And then
that Sunday, they head master of the school called me
and said that not only kn't been injured, but he'd
actually died, which you know, when you're at that age, okay,
grandparents maybe, but you know, people your own age are
(17:25):
kind of invulnerable, and so that was quite a shock.
You know. The only thing that got me, you know,
back thinking for was, you know, when I would spend
time with Kent's parents. You know, it was kind of
an irreparable loss for them. They he was amazing to
them and to me, and so you know, I was
(17:49):
lucky that all those things Kent had taught me, you know,
I could go back and do. In fact, I that
summer I had committed to do a very complicated piece
of soft for school scheduling. So I called Paul, who'd
gone off for a first year of college, and then
he came back and that's sort of where he and
(18:09):
I spent a lot of time together, and you know,
eventually that led to us founding Microsoft about three years.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
In fact, there's a scene in the book where Paul
Allen bursts into your dorm room at Harvard holding the
January nineteen seventy five issue of Popular Electronics with this
headline project breakthrough world's first mini computer kit to rival
commercial models, And he said to you it's happening without us.
That was a real kick in the pants for both
(18:39):
of you, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'd made I'd help Paul get a job back
in Boston. So he was on leaven We were just
brainstorming all the time about this insight, about how magical
these chips were and what they would do and you know,
different ideas, and just stunned that other people didn't see
(19:01):
how big this would be. But still thinking through, Okay,
what was our role in all of it? And so yeah,
when he bought that magazine at Harvard Square and you know,
it's a cold Boston winter, and we said, okay, we
are going to be in on the ground floor. And
now it's happening. And so even though I loved my
(19:22):
time at Harvard, you know, that's when I had to
make the plan. Okay, I'm about to.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Go on unless your mom bummed out that you quit Harvard.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Well I didn't quit. I mean you go on leave.
You know, so if your company fails, you know, they
don't like shun you. Oh you had a failed company,
or oh you were gone for a year. It would
have been fine. You know, I didn't have you know,
kids to support or anything like that. And you know,
(19:54):
my computer skills were quite valuable, so I didn't think
of it as risky at all. She might have been
a bit worried about it, because she always wondered if
I was taking the wrong turn that she needed to
advise me on. But you know, we started small, and
(20:18):
then a few years later, at the end of the
book is when I'm nineteen seventy nine, I've decided to
move Microsoft back to Seattle, and you know, we only
have about eighteen people, but we're on our way to
be sort of the software.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And the book ends when you're around twenty three. You
get into your Porsche. Nice nice ride for a college kid.
By the way, oh, I was a used nine eleven,
and you headed back to Seattle, as you said, to
build Microsoft. But now fifty years later you've said you're
thinking of quote digital empowerment as an unadulterated good has changed,
(20:57):
And I'm curious back then, Bill, if you ever envisioned
technology being as transformative and as negative a force in
society in some cases that it's become.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
In the early days, it felt like a pure, unadult,
traded good thing that you could type documents and do
spreadsheets and communicate with people all over the world, and
it was just Okay, humans do good things, and now
we're going to do them faster and better. And so
(21:37):
that naivete I keep that literally until social networking comes along.
In fact, we thought the biggest problem with computers was
that not everybody had access, So we need to make
them even cheaper and get them into the inner city
and get them into developing countries. So this digital divide
(21:58):
was something that I worked on, you know, putting computers
in libraries, and Microsoft also did a lot on that.
Only later did the idea that some of these technologies
can actually accentuate human weakness, and you can get people
who believe crazy things that normally would have to kind
(22:20):
of give it up because they can't find each other.
But now, boy, they have found each other. You know,
for crazy idea A, they've got a quorum. For crazy
idea B, they've got a quorum, and all day long
they're enjoying being off in that you know, sort of
non nonfactual but self reinforcing group. You know. So yes,
(22:43):
it's only maybe ten years ago that that became clear.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So is disinformation the biggest peril? Do you think to
modern technology or what about sort of I'm sure you've
read Jonathan Height. I just forgot his name. Wait, thank you,
SJO Anxious generation? What most concerned you about technology? And
while we're on the subject, how do you feel about AI?
(23:08):
Is that something you're excited about or more concerned about?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, I'm extremely excited about it, but it's a little
bit scary in terms of how we're going to end
up using it. It is way beyond anything that's come before.
You know, the revolution I was part of is about
computing going from being expensive to basically being free. Okay,
(23:35):
what do you do with it? Now? It's about intelligence
going from being scarce and you have to go to
college and learn all these things because we have a
shortage of engineers or doctors or whatever, and now intelligence
will be essentially free. We're not there yet. We don't
(23:58):
have robots. The accuracy of these machines h still kind
of surprise us. That they make mistakes that are very
different than the kind of mistake humans make. So there's refinement,
but it's happening quite quickly. So when you think about
today's problems, you know, climate Alzheimer's, HIV, vaccine, AI is
(24:24):
phenomenal in that it will accelerate those advances. You know,
we will have medical advice for people in poor countries,
will have great advice for farmers about when to plant
what to plant, better than even rich farmers have today.
But overall for society as it you know, changes job
(24:46):
markets and hopefully frees up time. Exactly who benefits or
how government adjusts to it, and how you know, people
with negative intent use these new tools, I'd say it's
a cloudier future. And and so AI brings wonderful advances
(25:07):
and some challenge for humanity. You know. Harari in nexas
says that we need to put AI aside and learn
how to get along with each other, and then we
should turn to this wonderful magic box since we'll be
mature enough to use it the right way. You know,
(25:30):
that's not likely to happen. So we've got, you know,
a need to get everybody involved in thinking through how
do we want to shape.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Well, that's a great segue to my next question. I
thought we could talk about politics because there's nothing really
going on in that department. What did you think when
you saw this whole row of tech bros at the
inauguration front and Center. What did you say to yourself
when you witness that?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
You know they make their own decisions.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
You must have thought something though when you saw that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
No, I wouldn't have predicted it. And yet, you know,
when you have a new administration, you know they're gonna
wield a lot of authority, including over those companies. You know,
I'm I'm not really in their game anymore. My focus
is the foundation work. So you know my mindset isn't
(26:33):
quite Okay, let's defend.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Were you invited for the inauguration?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I bet I could have been there, I mean, I
think so, but it was fine. I had been there
recently for Jimmy Carter's funeral.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's it. Yeah, okay. These same tech billionaires made major
contributions to Trump's inauguration fund. Meta, Amazon, Google, your very
own Microsoft all donated one million dollars. Sam Altman and
(27:20):
Tim Cook both reportedly also made one million dollar donations personally.
So did you donate anything to Donald Trump?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I didn't. I thought it looked like a well funded inauguration.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
They don't need my money.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No. I saved it for HIV and malaria eradication.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
You did, though, have a three hour dinner with Donald Trump.
I know, I suddenly feel like Mike Wallace here. I
don't mean to. I don't mean to anyway.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I know you had dinner with Donald Trump. It was
three hours long. It was at the end of December.
You described that dinner as quite intriguing and wide ranging,
and that he showed a lot of interest in the
issues that you brought up. He's been president for just
over two weeks, and as you well know, there's a
lot of concern about a whole slew of things he's doing,
(28:36):
from firing inspectors general at a variety of agencies to
stop corruption, etc. To the mass deportation of immigrants, to
blaming the tragic airplane crash in DC on DEI given
the conversation and given your experience having this dinner with him,
are you surprised at some of the actions he's taken
(28:58):
so quickly?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, things are moving fairly quickly. And you know, the
area that I have real expertise in includes the foreign assistants,
the USAID work, and things like pepfar where the US
government has been incredibly generous and saved tens of millions
(29:24):
of lives. And so when I saw President Trump, you know,
I said, let's maintain this generosity and let's accelerate innovation.
And we don't have an HIV vaccine, we don't have
an HIV cure. If some of the same things that
were done in Project Warp Speed during the pandemic could
(29:45):
be applied in those areas, the chance of getting great
new tools is pretty exciting. And so I asked for
his support in that and said that, you know, in
the meantime, we should continue to provide those medicines. What's
happened so far in terms of personnel and grants may
(30:06):
disrupt that. And so you know, I'll be a strong
voice saying, you know, even if you have to, you know,
change the name of the organization. You know, maybe there's
ten percent of these programs you don't support. Let's not
take the incredible talent and impact and through very abrupt
(30:27):
actions largely by people who don't know this agency and
may have just heard about you know, one percent here,
you know, went to something they don't like. So the
next few months, you know, I expect to provide the
best advice I can because I think the US should
(30:49):
be proud of what it's done, starting with President Bush.
But on a bipartisan basis up until now.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Will you call Elon muss because as the head of
DOGE or whatever that agency is, he's made moves, as
you know, to shut down USAI D He says, quote
with the blessing of President Trump, and on his platform
X he called the government agency evil and a viper's
nests of radical left Marxist who hate America America, adding
(31:18):
that it was time for it to die. We got
so many questions Bill for you on threads, my followers,
And do you think that Elon Musk, or for that matter,
Donald Trump, after you all had that three hour dinner
and talked about the important work that organizations like this do,
(31:38):
do you think anybody's going to listen.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I'm very hopeful that the Secretary of State Mark Rubio,
who was in Africa and saw this great work, and
President Trump will work to preserve the bulk of what's there.
Whether that named agency stays in place, you know, whether
(32:02):
every program does. But you know, an abrupt ending of
that work would really put to the test. You know,
is it in the value of Americans to take half
percent of the budget and keep tens of millions of
Africans alive or have we sort of overnight decided that
that half a percent shouldn't be spent that way? And
(32:24):
it is a political question. You know, I have a
clear point of view. I know great people in that area.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It's not just Africa, by the way, it's all over
the world.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It is it is. It's mostly the benefits of that
work of USAAD broadly are our global The HIV work
because of the nature of the epidemic is about eighty
percent in Africa. And the things USAID funds I fund
with billions of dollars, and you know, I'm very careful
(32:53):
to make sure that money is well spent. And so
I think naively people hear the most random purnade things
and think, okay, it's all like that. So I have
a challenge to say to Americans, is this in your
value system? And you know, does it benefit our security
(33:15):
or our moral example to keep these programs going? And
you know, I think people at both parties will find
this a deeply moral and important thing to keep strong.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Now, comment on some of the other moves that Trump
has made with Inspectors General kind of using weaponizing DEI
I'm just curious how you're feeling, is you're watching all
of this unfold.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Well, in some ways, you know, there's not that much
that wasn't predicted mentioned during the campaign, And although.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He distanced himself from Project twenty twenty five and now,
according to Time magazine, two thirds of the things he's
done are actually in adherence with Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
You know, I'm you know, there are people in the
Democratic Party who will speak out on these things. I'm
you know, I'm taking my fortune and trying to partner
with governments, and the US government being very key, so
I'll mostly speak out about those areas where I have
you know, real experience. I've gotten to visit the projects,
(34:29):
I've gotten to meet the heroes, and I'm still you know,
hoping we can strengthen rather than we can that those
those projects.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I want to ask you about RFK Junior, because obviously
that's kind of in your laying. His nomination passed the
Senate Finance Committee to advance to the floor bill. Do
you think he should be Secretary of Health and Human Services,
given especially your incredible work with vaccines and given some
(35:02):
of his, uh, you know, past statements about not only
their efficacy but about their safety.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
You know, I I've only had one meeting with him,
which actually goes back to the first Trump administration, and
you know, it looks like he will get confirmed. Uh,
he'll be in charge of some other parts of the
government that do amazing work. You know, we have the
(35:32):
best drug regulator, the FDA, we have the best health
research the NIH. He'll be in charge of those things.
And uh, you know, so I hope to find common cause,
including you know, working to have more vaccines. You know,
we we don't have a vaccine for TB or HIV
(35:54):
in malaria, and there's some incredible work that even in
the next four years with Lucke, we'll get a number
of those tools.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You have predicted that the chance of another pandemic in
the next four years is between ten and fifteen percent,
and that we're absolutely not prepared for it. I'm curious
why you think global leaders are not taking this threat
seriously enough. This has sort of been the case for
pandemics for a while, even after COVID. Seems like we
(36:29):
haven't put the infrastructure in place to deal with something
like that happening in the future. And I'm curious why
you think that's the case.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, there are countries like China and India that are
actually doing some great things.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
But I guess maybe than in this country.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
We would make them more ready for the next pandemic.
US is kind of strange because we're still kind of arguing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
About where the virus came from.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
You know, no, well that too, but even you know, okay,
in the end, at the end of any emergency action
like that, you realize, okay, now we've gone too far
and the remedy is greater than the benefit. And so
you know, when should we have known that? And whose
fault was?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
The vaccine saved millions of lives and President Trump was
involved in accelerating the availability of that vaccine, similar things
should be standing by for the next pandemic, And so
I'm hopeful that we'll sort of put that one behind
(37:33):
us and come together around what preparation looks like. The
world is more dependent on the US doing a good
job on this than it should be, you know. It
really the depth of medical experience, the size of the
American budget, you know, and we need to do it
on a cooperative basis. So with luck, we'll get our
(37:58):
act together before the next one comes, because it could
be far worse that pandemic you know, killed less than
one percent. Now that's millions of people, but you could
have one that would be you know, greater than ten percent.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Could you see yourself getting more involved in pandemic preparedness
and kind of trying to galvanize all these people who
have such a depth of knowledge but don't seem to
be particularly coordinated.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, I wrote a book about how to avoid the
next pandemic, but.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I mean actually instituting sort of more of a plan
or is that not really that interesting?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Well, if the government was putting together a group of
people on that, either I or you know, the the
deep experts at the Gates Foundation would love to be
part of that. You know, this is a multi country
thing because the pandemic is likely to start in either
(38:59):
a your Africa. And the best thing with the pandemic
because you stop it. You have functional health systems in
Africa that see it, detect it, and don't let it
go global. And that's partly an additional benefit besides what
I think should justify it by itself, which is the
(39:21):
moral idea of saving lives. And so yes, if the
world gets serious about this, you know I think about it.
I have great people outside of the pharma companies, we
have the greatest depth of vaccine expertise and so you know,
(39:42):
whenever you want to think not just about the market
incentives but societal benefit, that's where we have a team
that can make a contribution.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
As you mentioned, I have so many questions, but we're
running out of time. But you mentioned you're going to
be turning seventy. I guess in October, right. And my
husband always says, I'm not even on the back nine.
I'm on the back three, which is so so sweet
of him. But as you as you approached the big
(40:11):
seven to zero, I mean, what are you thinking about?
What do you want to accomplish bill that you have
yet to accomplish because you're always I think, striving to
do more.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, most of my time is being smart about giving
the money away that I'm lucky enough to have and
building a phenomenal team of people at the Gates Foundation.
You know, global health is the thing we've picked, and
so far it's gone very well, you know, because of
(40:46):
our partner's generosity with the US government being top of
that list, have allowed us to get childhood under five
deaths from ten million a year. At the turn of
the century now down to blow five million. If we
stay the course, we will be able to cut that
in half again. You know. So for me, eradicating polio
(41:09):
where we're close but uh not there yet. Uh, then
moving on to eradicate musles and malaria, and to get
kind of an equity where child's life in these poor
countries is also valued, where they get the nourishment to thrive. Uh.
You know, it's very fulfilling work. And the innovation pipeline,
(41:32):
that's a very positive story. The delivery pipeline where the
world is getting distracted. Uh, and we need to renew
our values and commitment to these things. That look that's
looking tough at least in the near term, but uh,
you know, the innovations are going to come and you know,
(41:53):
eventually I think uh people will come back uh and
and do this just on a your value based.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
You're never going to retire, You're never going to sit
on a beach and drink pina coladas.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Well, as long as I think my organizing teams and
challenging teams really can help drive these things forward, that
is the most fun thing for me to do. And
you know, do I have ten more years or twenty
more years of doing that hard to say, but for
(42:27):
now I'm full speed ahead.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Well Bill Gates. The book is called source Code My Beginnings.
Thanks so much, Bill, fun talking to Thank you Fair,
thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a
(42:52):
question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM
on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next
Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media.
The executive producers are me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.
(43:13):
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are
Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description
in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.
(43:34):
You can also find me on Instagram and all my
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Host
Katie Couric
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