September 17, 2024 • 52 mins
In this special episode of Next Question, Katie sits down with Hillary Clinton for an intimate conversation recorded live at DAR Constitution Hall. In this candid and wide-ranging chat, Clinton pulls back the curtain on the current political scene, sharing sharp insights on President Biden’s decision to step aside, Kamala Harris' campaign so far, and the seemingly unshakeable presence of Donald Trump. And for the record, yes, Hillary’s a Swiftie—deal with it.
They also discuss Clinton's latest book and her fourth memoir, Something Lost, Something Gained, which reflects on resilience, leadership, and lessons from her personal and political life. With humor and candor, Clinton doesn’t shy away from the tough questions, offering a rare glimpse into her evolving perspective on power, loss, and how the game of politics never really ends.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome former Secretary of State Hillary
Rodham Clinton and Katie Kirk, Award winning journalist and co
founder of Katie Kirk Media.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Everyone. Wow, what a crowd. It is so great, such
an honor to be kicking off your book tour. Hillary,
may I call you Hillary? Yes, Katie yes, And so
great to be in my hometown of Washington, DC. So gosh,
I have nineteen pages worth of questions. Don't worry, the
(00:59):
print is very big, Hillary, and I'll put my glasses
on in fact. So let's get to it right away.
There's so much news to talk about. Obviously we're going
to talk about your wonderful book, Something Lost, Something Gained.
But first I want to address sort of recent news events.
The assassination attempt on former President Trump yesterday at his
(01:22):
golf course in West Palm Beach. It is the second
attempt on his life in two months. When you heard
the news, what was your reaction.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, it was horror. I mean, this is such a
terrible thing to happen twice in our country in a
relatively short period of time, and it's frightening to see
violence being threatened and used in a political campaign.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
This is what Donald Trump tweeted this afternoon. Quote. The
rhetoric lies, as exemplified by the far statements made by
Comrade Kamala Harris during the rigged and highly partisan ABC
debate and all of the ridiculous lawsuits specifically designed to
inflict damage on Joe's than Kamala's political opponent, me has
(02:17):
taken politics in our country to a whole new level
of hatred, abuse, and distrust because of this communist left rhetoric.
The bullets are flying and it will only get worse.
Exclamation point. Allowing millions of people from places unknown to
invade and take over our country is an unpardonable sin
(02:40):
end quote. I imagine you have a lot to say
about that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, you know, it is so regrettable that the former
president would take what is a genuinely terrible event of
someone stalking a former president and current candidate and turn
it into as he did with that tweet that you
(03:08):
just read, a political attack on his opposition and literally
everybody else who does not support him. And it really
does Katie come down once again to everything everything that
he talks about is about himself, and he doesn't in
(03:32):
any way try to reach out to people. He's not
interested in representing all of America and all of Americans,
and this is just another really regrettable incident of that.
And I do worry about political violence. I worry about threats.
I worry about what's being said online about many many people,
(03:54):
not just the former president. And he should be doing
if if you were really a leader, he should be
doing what he can to calm the waters, not try
to just continue to throw red meat out there to
get people riled up. And it is troubling to me,
(04:18):
which is something that I think everybody should.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Worry about modeling behavior instead of inciting more violent speech.
While we're talking about that in a sense deleted response
to a user who asked, why do they want to
kill Donald Trump, Elon Musk said, and no one is
even trying to assassinate Biden or Kamala.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
You know, let's just all just promise ourselves that we
can have significant political differences about who we want to
be our next president, about the policies that we think
will help our country and the world, and condemn that
kind of rhetoric. It has absolutely no place in American life.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It's interesting because in the prologue of your books, something Lost,
Something Gained is out tomorrow. By the way, everyone you
write quote when you start viewing the other party as traders, criminals,
or otherwise illegitimate. For example, if you spread the lie
for years that our first black president wasn't actually born
in the United States. Where if you lead locker up
(05:36):
chants at your campaign rallies, politics becomes a blood sport.
Soon enough, actual blood gets spilled. I'm curious who do
you think. I mean, you're going to say this is
kind of a no brainer question, but who do you
think is responsible for raising the temperature of our political rhetoric?
(05:56):
Is it solely one side? Because I noticed Hillary when
I was reading the book, you mentioned both far right
and far left echo chambers.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You know, I do think that we've always had strong
feelings in our politics, going back literally to the very
beginning of this country. There's nothing new about that. But
I do think that social media has put it on steroids,
and what we see now are opinions being expressed, hate
(06:31):
being conveyed that would have just stayed within a much
smaller geographic or community setting, which is now literally around
the world. So I believe that this is not just
about political leaders, although they do, and I believe this strongly,
(06:54):
have a responsibility to try to model responsible leadership. But
it is about all kinds of people who have found
homes on the Internet to convey a lot of hatred,
a lot of vitriolic rhetoric, attacking all sorts of people,
from the right, from the left, impugning people's beliefs, denying reality,
(07:22):
putting forth conspiracy theories. And so it is difficult in
the environment in which we find ourselves to really have
a civil conversation about the differences. And there are real differences.
There are differences between the parties, There are differences between
candidates because saying anything just gets totally viral immediately and
(07:46):
then you know you're off on a tangent. So I
do think that political leaders, some journalists, activists, you know,
online personality, all of that has contributed to a really
volatile political situation.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, as our friend Kara Swisher calls it, engagement through enragement,
and those are the things that get attention, the most vitriolic,
most sort of incendiary comments. I want to ask you
about the current political situation with Joe Biden stepping down
from running for president. The book was turned in prior
(08:29):
to that, and also prior to Donald Trump's first assassination
attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. I know you recorded an epilogue
though for your audio book, And let me first ask
you about President Biden resigning from the campaign. What do
you think took him so long to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, I don't have any inside information, but I think
number one, he did a really good job as president.
He got a lot done, and and and I do
think he modeled responsible leadership. Uh. He tried very hard
(09:12):
to you know, demonstrate that he wanted to be president
for all Americans. He wanted to work with Republicans in
the Congress. A lot of his major legislation, many of
the benefits like the Infrastructure Bill or the Inflation Reduction Act,
you know, they're going to go to all Americans, and
they're going to go to places that don't vote for Democrats,
(09:34):
did not vote for Joe Biden. And and he really
did have a strong commitment to try to you know,
reach out to people and to to build a much
you know, commer approach toward bringing people together to solve problems.
So if you've had that kind of record and you've
(09:55):
done a lot as he did, I think that U
those of us who were around him, you know both.
I was around him numerous times. Actually did a you know,
fundraiser with him with my husband right here in Virginia
at Terry mccauliff's house, who I think is here tonight
(10:17):
about like like about a week before that debate. And
you know, not only did he speak, he was in
a photo line for an hour, then he went around
and talked to everybody who was at the fundraiser. So
when we saw the debate, like every other American, we were,
(10:39):
you know, surprised, shocked even, And I think again, I'm
thinking that this is how he felt about it. He said, Okay,
I had a terrible debate. Don't know what happened to me,
but I'm gonna go out and I'm going to campaign
and all the rest of it. But it just couldn't
be recovered. And I think then people close to him,
(11:01):
that our trusted advisors, you know, began explaining to him
that it couldn't be recovered, that he couldn't get back
to a fifty to fifty close race that you know,
he would be able to pull out, and he made
the right decision. And then immediately after he made the
decision public, he endorsed Kamala, which was also the right decision.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Let me ask you about that, because I know you
had a conversation with Kamala Harris that Sunday. What can
you tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well, you're right that my book had to get to
the printer before all of this happened. You must have
been like, damn, gosh, it was it was pretty it
was pretty agonizing. But I did. If you're an audible
kind of person, I did record the book, and I
put an epilogue at the end of the book, or
at the end of the recording. It's not in the book,
(11:55):
but it is in the audio version in which I
talked about how I felt. I mean, first of all,
I thought Joe Biden made a patriotic decision and it
was commendable, and I was, you know, very grateful to him,
and I thought his endorsement of Kamala was the right thing.
(12:16):
And I you know that afternoon, Bill and I talked
to the President, we talked to the Vice president, and
I say in the epilogue, you know, I wasn't sure
how I would feel when another woman would be so
close to breaking that hardest glass ceiling. And I was
thrilled and so excited. And you know, she has run
(12:45):
a near perfect campaign. I mean absolutely from the very beginning.
So I was, you know, able to express that in
the audio version that I recorded. But I think the
book itself tries to talk about the stakes that are
in the election, whether it's Joe Biden at the top
(13:07):
of the ticket or Kamala Harris, the stakes are so
high and they remain the same, and so I'm thrilled
that people have been so energized by Kamala because we've
got to turn everybody out to vote in November.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I know, during the course of that phone call, she
said to you, we're going to need your help, and
you said.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Whatever you need, whatever you need, and I you know,
I've talked to her several times. I thought her convention
speech was perfect. It was such an incredible introduction of
herself to the country. I also talked with her about
the debate, which I thought was terrific, And you know,
(14:00):
it is very for me. It's very exciting to see
someone literally just get thrown into the deep end of
the pool, like, oh, now you're running for president and
to see her just kick herself up and you know,
get prepared to do it. And I love her vice
(14:23):
presidential candidate Tim Walls, who is such a breath of
fresh air. So I you know, I'm doing events. I'm
helping in every way that I can, because literally we
have fifty days left and there's so much at stake
that I personally am going to do everything that I
can to make sure this election turns out right.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the new and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You know,
(15:23):
at the time when there was so much discussion about
whether President Biden was going to drop out of the race,
many Democrats were hoping for an open process where a
number of candidates could have competed for the spot. But you,
as you said just a minute ago, you were a
big supporter of Kamala Harris's from the get go. Why
did you think that was the best path and what
(15:45):
downside did you see in having a more open process.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
First of all. I thought she'd earned it. She has
been the vice president. When people were voting in the primaries,
they voting for the Biden Harris ticket, not the Biden
question Mark ticket, and I thought that she was best
positioned to step on to the national stage. I talked
(16:14):
to a lot of people during that time, and nobody
could describe to me what this process was supposed to be.
I mean, I would have been interested. You know. There
were all kinds of wacky ideas, well, let's just have
people go around the country like you know.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Do town halls.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, in town halls, like the Lincoln Douglas debates, I mean,
and you have what a month? I mean, none of
it made any sense. And the sensible people whose names
you know were well known because they were already established
in politics, and the Congress, governors, et cetera. They were
all looking at it and going, this doesn't sound like
(16:58):
a good idea to me. And then finally we were
We were running against the most dangerous threat to the
continuation of American democracy and freedom that we can possibly imagine.
And we don't need any more chaos. We need to
make a decision and go forward. And if you go
(17:19):
back and look at the history of you know, contested conventions,
people running against incumbents, it doesn't turn out all that well.
So I was I was thrilled that, you know, we
were able to make a very you know, sensible, smart
decision and get to the convention, uh, have a great
convention and come out of it with a lot of
(17:41):
uh you know, uh steam behind our candidates.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
We'll talk more about politics in a moment, but I
want to talk about the book, which is quite political
by the way, political and personal. I know you're a
huge Joni Mitchell fan. As am I You named Chelsea.
I remember this from I think I interviewed I think
it was mentioned you in nineteen ninety three, the first
interview with the First Lady. It was Hilary America's first Lady,
(18:08):
and it was so gendered and cheesy. But that was
in nineteen ninety three. But anyway, I know that you
named Chelsea after Chelsea Morning. And in your prologue you
talk about being at rapped attention, as Joni Mitchell sang
both sides now at the Grammys earlier this year, which
was quite a moment. It seems to me this book
(18:31):
is you at a very reflective time in your life.
Tell us a little bit more about where you are
and how you're looking at life from both sides.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Now, well, how many you know this may be a
little generational, but how many of you know the Joni
Mitchell song or the Judy Collins cover both sides? Now?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I hope everybody does. I even the young en should
know this song.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, if you haven't heard it, please please listen to it.
Do yourselfs a favor.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know this is like God, you're making me feel
so old.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You haven't heard both sides? Now, go to Spotify. But
it's like the soundtrack of my life. I mean really,
and it would you when I first heard that song
in my I guess early twenties. You know, I've looked
at life from both sides now, from win or lose,
and still somehow I don't know what life means basically
(19:28):
when you're in your twenties, as I write in the book, yeah,
I mean what does it mean? What does life mean?
What does life hold for me? And then of course
love the same thing. And I have used that song
and the lyrics from it literally through the course of
my life because at different stages in your life, you know,
(19:51):
you do have something lost, something gain, which comes from
the song you do see life on both sides. You
often see love from both sides. And I just felt
when I was watching Joni Mitchell sitting in what looked
like a throne at the Grammys earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Holding what looked like a specter r.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
What looked like a spector with Brandy Carlisle, one of
my all time new favorites. I was just so touched because,
you know, she survived a brain aneurysm and a lot
of other things in her life, and here she was,
you know, doing what she does so uniquely, which is
to you know, write songs that capture your feelings not
(20:36):
just at one time in your life, but as you
go through life. So, you know, Katie, when I saw that,
I thought, Okay, you know, I am thinking a lot
about where I am in my life now, and you
know I want to you know, reflect on that. So
it was a real chance for me to take some
time and look at life, look at love, talk about
(20:58):
my family, my friends, my you know, political and public activities.
In a way that was kind of you know, taking
stock of where I am right now.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And what was important, you know, and sort of letting
go of things that mattered so much at one point,
but you realize now don't matter at all. In fact, absolutely,
you write in the book, the old words took on
new meaning. Gone was the twenty something shaking off the
rose colored glasses of a love affair and the illusions
of adolescence, and in her place was a matriarch reflecting
(21:33):
on the hard earned wisdom of a long, eventful life.
Is part of this coming to terms for you, Hillary,
the fact, as you write you have more yesterday's than tomorrow's.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think it is. I mean, I feel great. I'm
going to stay as active and involved as I can
until when I can't. But you do have that sense.
I mean, I have three grandchildren now, and you know,
life for me is really about how I can make
the future safer, more inviting, you know, richer in meaning
(22:14):
an opportunity for my grandchildren, for children. I dedicate the
book to my grandchildren and their generation because I want
them to have the kind of future that they deserve.
And so I do think a lot about tomorrow. Even
though my tomorrows are fewer than my yesterday's. I think about, Okay,
(22:34):
what are we going to do? Every single day? To
try to make the world more peaceful, to try to
end conflicts, to try to end the divisions in our country.
What can we do and what role, you know, can
I play in trying to get that done?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
The book opens the book. If you all clap after
every answer, I'm going to run out of time. The
book opens on the afternoon of May thirtieth time, twenty
twenty four, when you and all of America got the
news that former President Donald Trump had been convicted of
thirty four felonies related to election fraud in twenty sixty
(23:12):
in twenty sixteen. So can you set the scene for us, Hillary,
Where were you described that moment at all, the intense
feelings that stirred up in you.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, it was, as you said, late May, and I
was finishing edits on the book, and I was actually
here in Washington at my house here, and I was
working on the edits, and I needed to really concentrate
because I had a limited period of time to get
these edits done. And then I had events that I
had to go to, and so I took my phone
(23:46):
and you know, I put it on mute and I
turned it upside down. So I had no idea what
was going on in the world. And I was, you know,
finally finishing the parts that I was trying to edit,
and you know, I picked it up, see what's going
on and turned it on and like my phone is
blowing up. I mean, honest to goodness, people I hadn't
heard from in years are you know, texting and emailing me,
(24:10):
and they are all saying the same thing. Can you
believe what just happened? And of course I quickly read
that he had been convicted of thirty four felony accounts
for interfering in the twenty sixteen election, because that's what
that trial was about. Hush money was a means to
(24:30):
prevent information from being made public that might have affected
the vote. So it was election interference. And you know,
when you've watched his life and when you've tried to
explain how he's never been held accountable for the bankruptcies
(24:51):
in business and for so much else that happened before
he ever went into politics, you know, to see that
a jury of his peers in the place he grew
up in New York had found him guilty was you know,
very reassuring to me about our system. And I did
get you know, a little bit teary eyed because I thought, Wow,
(25:15):
no one is above the law, no matter what the
United States Supreme Court says, no one is above the law.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
And and so for me, I mean, you know, look,
I mean, I you know, I was accused of a
million things.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I'll probably come up with more tomorrow. I mean, it
just never ends. And you know, went through, you know,
all the process, and thankfully, guess what, I'd never had
done anything that amounted to any kind of uh, you know,
case that could be made because there was nothing there.
And so for me to see that finally he was
being held account was very reassuring it. And you know,
(26:02):
obviously people started sending me memes and you know.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
A lot of Hillary laughing memes, right, a lot of
very funny memes.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But you know, I know that you confess to feeling
a soup song of schadenfreud. Yes, but you also felt
relief as you just said that he would be held accountable.
But will he be because as you know, Judge Mrchon
recently delayed his sentencing to after the election. You mentioned
(26:34):
the Supreme Court saying granting him immunity. Does it feel
like he'll never truly be held accountable at times to you.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well, I think that's a risk. I do think it
depends upon the outcome of the election. Part of the
reason why he is so intense about this election is
because his free him is at stake. And you know,
(27:03):
the the case in New York, Uh, the uh losing
the defamation case, also in New York, his company being
held criminally liable also in New York.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
There's a pattern here that finally people are focused on
that he's a person who you know, cuts corners all
the time, believes he's above the law, gets to you know,
try to point fingers at everybody else. So honestly, Katie,
it depends upon the election. And it is so shocking
(27:39):
to me. How you know the judge in Florida has
literally turned herself into a pretzel trying to find a
way out for him with his boxes and boxes of
highly classified material stored in mar.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
A Lago in the back the bathroom, I mean, which
was really gross.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You can't make this up. Yeah, I mean really, I
guess we know what he's reading or not. I don't
know what you're dealing with it. Yeah, look, I mean,
we have always prided ourselves on a couple of things,
(28:25):
the peaceful transfer of power. And as Secretary of State,
I used to travel around the world basically telling leaders
and you know, the people and countries, look, one election
is not enough. It's not one and you're done, and
then you get to, you know, try to prevent anybody
else from ever challenging you. It's a peaceful transfer of power.
(28:45):
You have to have, you know, free and fair elections,
the rule of law, not the rule of men powerful men,
but the rule of law. And so you know, he
he has very much, along with his allies, you know,
tried to destroy both of those foundational concepts of our country.
(29:08):
And it is incredibly dangerous. As don't take it from me.
All of the people who worked for him who are
now saying, please don't vote for him. I was in
the situation room with him, I was in the oval
office with him. I briefed him, you cannot trust him
and you cannot let him have that kind of power again.
(29:31):
So the people who serve with him are warning us,
and he himself has said he wants to be, you know,
dictator on day one.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Why isn't the campaign employing those people more?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Well, they have been used and they've certainly been mentioned,
and they're all over social media. And just like two
days ago, a big group of former Reagan officials all
came out against him. I mean, Republicans of you know,
principle and prior experience in different Republican administrations are you know,
(30:04):
literally sounding the alarm. So I think that the more
we can get that out, the better, and I'm hoping
the campaign will do more of that. But as Vice
President Harris travels around the country, she's now being introduced
in a lot of places by Republicans who basically say,
you know, I am so and so, and I'm a
lifelong Republican, but I am voting for you know, Vice
(30:29):
President Harris. That is giving permission to people who are
torn about Trump but still feel like, well, you know,
I'm a Republican. I don't agree with the Democrats on
issues and all the rest. The only issue is saving
our democracy. We can argue about everything else later, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
The New York Times recently described Donald Trump as a
unique and durable political force, and I'm curious to get
your insights about why why is he so durable?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Well, first of all, I think it helps to have
some sense of history and to know that in many
societies political systems, people who have an ability to connect
(31:51):
with you know, the fears and the insecurities and the
anger and the hatreds of people in their society are
very effective demagogues, you know, people who stand up and
rail against the other, whoever the other is, whether it's
you know, immigrants or minority groups, whoever it is. And
(32:14):
I think what he has done, uh is to open
the door to that in our country. You know, I
didn't agree with a lot of the Republican presidents that
I've followed in my lifetime. I found ways to work
with some of them. When I was you know, a
senator from New York on nine to eleven, I found
(32:36):
a way to work with President George W. Bush about
you know, rebuilding New York and even though I disagreed
with him about you know, other things. But what we've
got with you know, former President Trump is not a
political difference. It's a it's an almost a psychological character
(32:57):
difference that goes beyond party. He has subdued the Republican
Party to basically give in to him and follow him,
and he does, you know, he does have that quality
that demagogues throughout history have to connect with people on
a really visceral level. So when you say why is
(33:21):
he so durable, I think because he keeps people agitated,
he keeps people angry, he keeps people upset. He's never
trying to calm the waters. He's never trying to bring
people together. One of my favorite examples of this is,
you know, after the twenty sixteen election, which was you know,
a terrible you know, blow in every way. So you know,
(33:44):
I gave my concession speech and basically said, we've we've
got to get you know, we have one president at
a time, got to get behind him, et cetera. And
I really hoped that what I saw in the campaign
would be replaced by a greater sense of responsibility. So
fast forward the inauguration. So, you know, I do believe
(34:04):
in the peaceful transfer of power. And you know, Bill
and I went to the inauguration and we went as
you know, former president, former first lady. We were seated
with former presidents and first ladies. So I was literally
sitting next to George W.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Bush and didn't he say something really funny too?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Well, I was going to tell you, yes, sorry, because
you know, this was my first recognition that the speech,
which you know, when when you when you have had
a close election, when you've lost the popular vote. I mean,
it would be a good idea to stand up in
front of the world and say I'm going to be
the president for everybody, you know. I mean, that's what
(34:44):
we kind of hope you'll do. Instead, it was like
carnage in the streets. It was so dark and dystopian
and mean spirited. And you heard this and I thought, wow,
what is going on? So the speech ends and or
w Bush turns to me and goes, that was some
weird shit. So w right, but apparently there are people
(35:16):
who like it. I don't know what to say, but
I mean that kind of goes to your question, why
is he so durable when he's scaring people and he's
angering people, and he's making hateful comments. Clearly he is
tapping into something in many Americans in their own minds
and hearts, and that's what we have to do a
better job of understanding.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You reveal in the book that you were attempted to
run for president again during the disastrous Trump presidency, at
one point thinking the third time maybe a charm. So
why did you ultimately decide against it, you.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Know, for a number of reasons. I mean one, I
really did think in twenty twenty that he had to
be beaten and Joe Biden could do that. And I
felt that from you know, the beginning of the primary season,
because of the durability that you recognized, and I didn't,
(36:15):
you know, I didn't want it to be personal me
against him. I wanted to be about his record as
as president, the four years that he presided over. And
I thought that that would be very difficult if I
were the candidate. And if you look at that race,
and this is for all the political junkies, and I
know there are some of you out there, you will
(36:38):
remember that the electoral college makes it very difficult to
win four Democrats. And when I won by nearly three
million votes in the popular vote, I lost. Can wait
a minute, no, I know, I know, but yeah, you know,
(37:02):
I lost by like seventy seven thousand votes, right, So
just think about that. If you know, forty nine fifty
thousand votes had gone differently in three states, the outcome
would have been different. So fast forward twenty twenty to
go to Katie's question. Trump got a lot more votes.
I mean, people looked at what he did and failed
(37:25):
to do during COVID at everything else that happened during
those four years, and said, hey, we like that. Biden
got more votes than anybody's ever gotten for president and
won the popular vote by you know, more than seven
and a half million. But here's what I want you
to understand, why I want you to work really, really
(37:47):
really hard for the next fifty days. He only won
the electoral College by one hundred thousand votes, So just
think about that fifty one thousand votes the other way,
even though he won an overwhelming popular victory. So we
are living in a divided country and we can't understand
(38:07):
and the other side can't understand, you know, why we
feel so strongly about what we want to see in
our government and in our you know, society, and they
are feeling exactly the same way about us. And so
the only thing to do, and it's it's labor intensive,
(38:28):
which is why you're seeing the vice president and Governor
Waltz literally criss crossing the same states over and over again.
I mean, one additional bad thing about the electoral college
is you don't campaign to the whole country. You campaigned
to six, seven, eight states, And that's where the ads run,
that's where the candidates travel, that's where the organizers are deployed.
(38:51):
So you will see over and over again those same states.
And that's why we need all of you who care
about the outcome of this election to do everything you
can to help us win those states because they will
be close.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
It seems insane, but it's never going to change, is it.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
The electoral college. You know, I came out against the
electoral college in two thousand in the Gore Bush race
because you know, it was our first indication that, you know,
the Supreme Court wanted to brig our elections basically, which
they did in the gor v. Bush decision, which is
a terrible decision. We've had a lot of other terrible
(39:32):
decisions since then. But I said, look this, if you
want people to feel invested in their country's democracy, you
have to make them feel their vote counts. And if
you're in an all red state or an all blue
state and nobody campaigns to you during the presidential years,
you know, it's hard for you to feel that you matter.
(39:56):
And so I think it's an anachronism. It was one
of the many comp reises that were made back in
the you know Constitution and our founders did that. Honestly,
you know, we should do away with it. I think
the chances of that ever happening are absolutely zero, but
we should. We should at least keep making it an issue.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You know, in your aforementioned epilogue for your audio book,
you Know, you talk about Vice President Harris being chronically
underestimated during her time as VP, as so many women
candidates and politicians are. But you also say maybe it
was PTSD from decades of battling the sexism and double
(40:38):
standards that plague women in politics. There's just something about her.
People say, we get tripped up by the likability test
or the authenticity trap, or people don't like the sound
of our laugh, the tone of our voice, the length
of our hair, you name it. I hear you, sister.
It's all gotten. It's all gotten worse in the age
of social media, with anonymous mobs harassing any woman who
(41:01):
has the temerity to stick her head up. So my question,
Hillary is how concerned are you that both sexism and
racism will impact Kamala Harris's chances of winning? I mean,
I remember there was a Sarah Palin Barbie Doll, but
a Hillary Clinton nutcracker. Yeah. Remember I was so infuriated.
(41:29):
It was at the airport.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
I was like, what, Yeah, I know, I mean many
people sent those to me. They were great stocking stuffers. Look,
we're just among friends here and.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
A few thousand francs.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah. Of course there will be people who will not
feel comfortable or want to vote for the vice president
because she's black, maybe because she's the daughter of immigrants,
and because she is a woman. That is just a fact.
We have to live with that, we have to understand that.
(42:09):
But that's you know, she is not putting that front
and center in her campaign. She doesn't need to. She
is talking about the issues, the kind of president she
will be, how she has policies. You can go to
her website and literally see them all rolled out. But
I think it's fair to say that it is still
(42:31):
difficult to convince some people. And depending upon where you
are in the country, the percentage will, you know, be
greater or lesser that you know, you can be the president,
you can be the commander in chief. And so she's
she and her campaign are fully aware of that. They're
not dwelling on it, and they are inspiring a lot
(42:54):
of people independence Republican women who care deeply about, you know,
their reproductive freedom and whether they get to make decisions
that are right for them and their families. And so
I laid that out because I want to be honest
about the challenges. They haven't gone away, but they've somewhat diminished,
(43:17):
I think, at least I hope. So. So I think
she is running a terrific campaign. She has to stay
on her message about you know, who she is, what
she wants to do, and what a danger Trump poses.
But let's not you know, let's not overlook the fact
there will be some who just can't bring themselves to
(43:40):
vote for a woman. And you know Shirley Chisholm, who
was the first woman on the Democratic side to make
a serious run for the presidency. You know, she once
famously said, you know, I'm black and I'm a woman,
and it's been much harder being a woman, in part
(44:01):
because it's kind of the you know, unfinished business of
human history to ensure that women have equal rights and
equal respect in whatever arena they find themselves. And so
I think she she has to be aware of it,
but not dwell on it. And I think we all
(44:22):
have to be very vigorous in our advocacy for the
Harris Waltz campaign, both on the merits, because I think
they'd be excellent for our country, and I just want
to breathe again, you know what. I think if we can,
if we can you know, defeat Trump now in the
(44:43):
upcoming election, then you know, people can take a deep breath,
and the Republican Party may be able to find it's
you know, conscience and its backbone and be able to
reconstitute itself with people who I would disagree with on issues,
but honestly would not fear for my country's future. And
(45:04):
that's what we have to hope for.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Vice President Harris has been criticized for not being more
specific in outlining her agenda. In a recent Time Santopol,
twenty eight percent of likely voters said they felt they
needed to know more about her, and even after the debate,
many undecided voters told The New York Times that they
still wanted more details about her plans and policies. Should
(45:29):
be she'd be talking about her political agenda with more specificity.
In your view, well.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
That's assuming Donald Trump has put out a really specific
But no, I mean that's a low bar, you know,
I mean actually has with Project twenty twenty five, which
should scare everybody here. You know, I have mixed feelings
about this. I was accused of being uh specific, too
(46:01):
specific a lot of other things, but certainly that, and
I was also I put out a book about my policies,
I gave speeches about my policies. At the end of
the campaign, nobody knew anything about my policies. And I
just think it's a trap. I mean, first of all,
for such a short campaign. I mean, if this were
(46:21):
a year and a half campaign like they usually are,
you would lay things out, you would you know, talk
about them, you would have all kinds of events about them.
I mean, she's got fifty days. So if you go
to our website, she has a lot of really good
policies and they are smart and they could be you know,
transformational about housing, for example, the opportunity to economy, which
(46:44):
is what she's talking about. But when I hear people
say that, it kind of makes me think, well, compared to.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
What or is something else?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Is the.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Text there? And that's right, Katie, I mean is it
like I just need to know more? Well, I think
part of it is what they're really saying I just
have to be more comfortable voting for a woman and
voting for this woman. So she's done, I think, an
(47:17):
absolutely credible job in putting policies out, and she talks
about some of them, but it's more about how she
makes people feel. And you know that Maya Angelou quote
like you know when somebody shows you who they are,
believe them the first time. Well, she's showing that. She's
a positive, energetic, optimistic person who wants to lift people up,
(47:44):
not tear them down. And we need that so much
in our country right now to have that kind of leadership.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I want to get back to you and your speech
at the DNC. I was with a group female friends
last week celebrating one of their birthdays, and they were
marveling at how generous you were in your speech at
the DNC, and one said, I thought this was such
(48:15):
a lovely thing to say. It's as if Hillary took
our broken hearts and allowed them to be released. Ah.
Was it hard for you, Hillary, at any level to
not have the pang of damn? It should have been me?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
Well, I will tell you I was first asked to
speak at the convention when Joe Biden was a candidate,
and you know, obviously wanted to do my very best
to support him if that was to be so. Then
when everything changed and they asked me to speak at
(48:58):
the convention, you know, they asked me to speak on
the very first day, and I really felt like I
had to be a bridge from where I was eight
years ago. What I was trying to do what I
hoped could be done to the vice president. And it
(49:20):
was a very very hard speech to write, and it
was a hard speech to deliver. You know, I practiced
it and would get, you know, pretty teary eyed about
it because it was hard. But it was something that
I felt really good and comfortable doing because I kind
(49:42):
of knew what my assignment was and I knew that
for a lot of people there was this twenty sixteen overhang.
I mean people today, I mean it's eight years people
today come up and they see me and they burst
into tears and they throw their arms around me and
they're sobbing on my shoulder because of twenty six That
must be a little weird. Well no, I mean it's
(50:03):
very touching, but you know it, people know that it
was an unprecedented election, and you know, those people who were,
you know, supporting me. You know, it has been a
very long time, so I knew I had to both
you know, give you know, give everybody permission to be
(50:27):
one hundred percent behind Kamala, and so in delivering it,
you know, going out there in the arena in Chicago,
first of all, you know, I can't see too many
faces beyond like the first couple of rows here because
of the way that the theater here is lit. But
at the convention, the way it was lit is I
(50:48):
could see people, twenty twenty five, thirty forty rows. I
could recognize people, And it was such an intimate moment
even though there were you know, many thousands of people there,
and I felt like it truly was the passing of
the torch. It was like, this can be done, we
are going to do it. And in the speech, remember
(51:09):
the main point I wanted to make it's not just
about finally breaking through that glass ceiling. It's on what's
on the other side of the glass ceiling. What are
the opportunities, what kind of future can we dream about
together to really empower all of our people, especially our
(51:30):
girls and young women. So it was a very emotional
moment for me. And you know it was one of
the most rewarding, you know, public experiences I've ever had.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six h nine five one two five five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
(52:17):
of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(52:37):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
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wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome former Secretary of State Hillary
Rodham Clinton and Katie Kirk, Award winning journalist and co
founder of Katie Kirk Media.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Everyone. Wow, what a crowd. It is so great, such
an honor to be kicking off your book tour. Hillary,
may I call you Hillary? Yes, Katie yes, And so
great to be in my hometown of Washington, DC. So gosh,
I have nineteen pages worth of questions. Don't worry, the
(00:59):
print is very big, Hillary, and I'll put my glasses
on in fact. So let's get to it right away.
There's so much news to talk about. Obviously we're going
to talk about your wonderful book, Something Lost, Something Gained.
But first I want to address sort of recent news events.
The assassination attempt on former President Trump yesterday at his
(01:22):
golf course in West Palm Beach. It is the second
attempt on his life in two months. When you heard
the news, what was your reaction.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, it was horror. I mean, this is such a
terrible thing to happen twice in our country in a
relatively short period of time, and it's frightening to see
violence being threatened and used in a political campaign.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
This is what Donald Trump tweeted this afternoon. Quote. The
rhetoric lies, as exemplified by the far statements made by
Comrade Kamala Harris during the rigged and highly partisan ABC
debate and all of the ridiculous lawsuits specifically designed to
inflict damage on Joe's than Kamala's political opponent, me has
(02:17):
taken politics in our country to a whole new level
of hatred, abuse, and distrust because of this communist left rhetoric.
The bullets are flying and it will only get worse.
Exclamation point. Allowing millions of people from places unknown to
invade and take over our country is an unpardonable sin
(02:40):
end quote. I imagine you have a lot to say
about that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, you know, it is so regrettable that the former
president would take what is a genuinely terrible event of
someone stalking a former president and current candidate and turn
it into as he did with that tweet that you
(03:08):
just read, a political attack on his opposition and literally
everybody else who does not support him. And it really
does Katie come down once again to everything everything that
he talks about is about himself, and he doesn't in
(03:32):
any way try to reach out to people. He's not
interested in representing all of America and all of Americans,
and this is just another really regrettable incident of that.
And I do worry about political violence. I worry about threats.
I worry about what's being said online about many many people,
(03:54):
not just the former president. And he should be doing
if if you were really a leader, he should be
doing what he can to calm the waters, not try
to just continue to throw red meat out there to
get people riled up. And it is troubling to me,
(04:18):
which is something that I think everybody should.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Worry about modeling behavior instead of inciting more violent speech.
While we're talking about that in a sense deleted response
to a user who asked, why do they want to
kill Donald Trump, Elon Musk said, and no one is
even trying to assassinate Biden or Kamala.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
You know, let's just all just promise ourselves that we
can have significant political differences about who we want to
be our next president, about the policies that we think
will help our country and the world, and condemn that
kind of rhetoric. It has absolutely no place in American life.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It's interesting because in the prologue of your books, something Lost,
Something Gained is out tomorrow. By the way, everyone you
write quote when you start viewing the other party as traders, criminals,
or otherwise illegitimate. For example, if you spread the lie
for years that our first black president wasn't actually born
in the United States. Where if you lead locker up
(05:36):
chants at your campaign rallies, politics becomes a blood sport.
Soon enough, actual blood gets spilled. I'm curious who do
you think. I mean, you're going to say this is
kind of a no brainer question, but who do you
think is responsible for raising the temperature of our political rhetoric?
(05:56):
Is it solely one side? Because I noticed Hillary when
I was reading the book, you mentioned both far right
and far left echo chambers.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You know, I do think that we've always had strong
feelings in our politics, going back literally to the very
beginning of this country. There's nothing new about that. But
I do think that social media has put it on steroids,
and what we see now are opinions being expressed, hate
(06:31):
being conveyed that would have just stayed within a much
smaller geographic or community setting, which is now literally around
the world. So I believe that this is not just
about political leaders, although they do, and I believe this strongly,
(06:54):
have a responsibility to try to model responsible leadership. But
it is about all kinds of people who have found
homes on the Internet to convey a lot of hatred,
a lot of vitriolic rhetoric, attacking all sorts of people,
from the right, from the left, impugning people's beliefs, denying reality,
(07:22):
putting forth conspiracy theories. And so it is difficult in
the environment in which we find ourselves to really have
a civil conversation about the differences. And there are real differences.
There are differences between the parties, There are differences between
candidates because saying anything just gets totally viral immediately and
(07:46):
then you know you're off on a tangent. So I
do think that political leaders, some journalists, activists, you know,
online personality, all of that has contributed to a really
volatile political situation.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, as our friend Kara Swisher calls it, engagement through enragement,
and those are the things that get attention, the most vitriolic,
most sort of incendiary comments. I want to ask you
about the current political situation with Joe Biden stepping down
from running for president. The book was turned in prior
(08:29):
to that, and also prior to Donald Trump's first assassination
attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. I know you recorded an epilogue
though for your audio book, And let me first ask
you about President Biden resigning from the campaign. What do
you think took him so long to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, I don't have any inside information, but I think
number one, he did a really good job as president.
He got a lot done, and and and I do
think he modeled responsible leadership. Uh. He tried very hard
(09:12):
to you know, demonstrate that he wanted to be president
for all Americans. He wanted to work with Republicans in
the Congress. A lot of his major legislation, many of
the benefits like the Infrastructure Bill or the Inflation Reduction Act,
you know, they're going to go to all Americans, and
they're going to go to places that don't vote for Democrats,
(09:34):
did not vote for Joe Biden. And and he really
did have a strong commitment to try to you know,
reach out to people and to to build a much
you know, commer approach toward bringing people together to solve problems.
So if you've had that kind of record and you've
(09:55):
done a lot as he did, I think that U
those of us who were around him, you know both.
I was around him numerous times. Actually did a you know,
fundraiser with him with my husband right here in Virginia
at Terry mccauliff's house, who I think is here tonight
(10:17):
about like like about a week before that debate. And
you know, not only did he speak, he was in
a photo line for an hour, then he went around
and talked to everybody who was at the fundraiser. So
when we saw the debate, like every other American, we were,
(10:39):
you know, surprised, shocked even, And I think again, I'm
thinking that this is how he felt about it. He said, Okay,
I had a terrible debate. Don't know what happened to me,
but I'm gonna go out and I'm going to campaign
and all the rest of it. But it just couldn't
be recovered. And I think then people close to him,
(11:01):
that our trusted advisors, you know, began explaining to him
that it couldn't be recovered, that he couldn't get back
to a fifty to fifty close race that you know,
he would be able to pull out, and he made
the right decision. And then immediately after he made the
decision public, he endorsed Kamala, which was also the right decision.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Let me ask you about that, because I know you
had a conversation with Kamala Harris that Sunday. What can
you tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well, you're right that my book had to get to
the printer before all of this happened. You must have
been like, damn, gosh, it was it was pretty it
was pretty agonizing. But I did. If you're an audible
kind of person, I did record the book, and I
put an epilogue at the end of the book, or
at the end of the recording. It's not in the book,
(11:55):
but it is in the audio version in which I
talked about how I felt. I mean, first of all,
I thought Joe Biden made a patriotic decision and it
was commendable, and I was, you know, very grateful to him,
and I thought his endorsement of Kamala was the right thing.
(12:16):
And I you know that afternoon, Bill and I talked
to the President, we talked to the Vice president, and
I say in the epilogue, you know, I wasn't sure
how I would feel when another woman would be so
close to breaking that hardest glass ceiling. And I was
thrilled and so excited. And you know, she has run
(12:45):
a near perfect campaign. I mean absolutely from the very beginning.
So I was, you know, able to express that in
the audio version that I recorded. But I think the
book itself tries to talk about the stakes that are
in the election, whether it's Joe Biden at the top
(13:07):
of the ticket or Kamala Harris, the stakes are so
high and they remain the same, and so I'm thrilled
that people have been so energized by Kamala because we've
got to turn everybody out to vote in November.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I know, during the course of that phone call, she
said to you, we're going to need your help, and
you said.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Whatever you need, whatever you need, and I you know,
I've talked to her several times. I thought her convention
speech was perfect. It was such an incredible introduction of
herself to the country. I also talked with her about
the debate, which I thought was terrific, And you know,
(14:00):
it is very for me. It's very exciting to see
someone literally just get thrown into the deep end of
the pool, like, oh, now you're running for president and
to see her just kick herself up and you know,
get prepared to do it. And I love her vice
(14:23):
presidential candidate Tim Walls, who is such a breath of
fresh air. So I you know, I'm doing events. I'm
helping in every way that I can, because literally we
have fifty days left and there's so much at stake
that I personally am going to do everything that I
can to make sure this election turns out right.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the new and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You know,
(15:23):
at the time when there was so much discussion about
whether President Biden was going to drop out of the race,
many Democrats were hoping for an open process where a
number of candidates could have competed for the spot. But you,
as you said just a minute ago, you were a
big supporter of Kamala Harris's from the get go. Why
did you think that was the best path and what
(15:45):
downside did you see in having a more open process.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
First of all. I thought she'd earned it. She has
been the vice president. When people were voting in the primaries,
they voting for the Biden Harris ticket, not the Biden
question Mark ticket, and I thought that she was best
positioned to step on to the national stage. I talked
(16:14):
to a lot of people during that time, and nobody
could describe to me what this process was supposed to be.
I mean, I would have been interested. You know. There
were all kinds of wacky ideas, well, let's just have
people go around the country like you know.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Do town halls.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, in town halls, like the Lincoln Douglas debates, I mean,
and you have what a month? I mean, none of
it made any sense. And the sensible people whose names
you know were well known because they were already established
in politics, and the Congress, governors, et cetera. They were
all looking at it and going, this doesn't sound like
(16:58):
a good idea to me. And then finally we were
We were running against the most dangerous threat to the
continuation of American democracy and freedom that we can possibly imagine.
And we don't need any more chaos. We need to
make a decision and go forward. And if you go
(17:19):
back and look at the history of you know, contested conventions,
people running against incumbents, it doesn't turn out all that well.
So I was I was thrilled that, you know, we
were able to make a very you know, sensible, smart
decision and get to the convention, uh, have a great
convention and come out of it with a lot of
(17:41):
uh you know, uh steam behind our candidates.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
We'll talk more about politics in a moment, but I
want to talk about the book, which is quite political
by the way, political and personal. I know you're a
huge Joni Mitchell fan. As am I You named Chelsea.
I remember this from I think I interviewed I think
it was mentioned you in nineteen ninety three, the first
interview with the First Lady. It was Hilary America's first Lady,
(18:08):
and it was so gendered and cheesy. But that was
in nineteen ninety three. But anyway, I know that you
named Chelsea after Chelsea Morning. And in your prologue you
talk about being at rapped attention, as Joni Mitchell sang
both sides now at the Grammys earlier this year, which
was quite a moment. It seems to me this book
(18:31):
is you at a very reflective time in your life.
Tell us a little bit more about where you are
and how you're looking at life from both sides.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Now, well, how many you know this may be a
little generational, but how many of you know the Joni
Mitchell song or the Judy Collins cover both sides? Now?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I hope everybody does. I even the young en should
know this song.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, if you haven't heard it, please please listen to it.
Do yourselfs a favor.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know this is like God, you're making me feel
so old.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You haven't heard both sides? Now, go to Spotify. But
it's like the soundtrack of my life. I mean really,
and it would you when I first heard that song
in my I guess early twenties. You know, I've looked
at life from both sides now, from win or lose,
and still somehow I don't know what life means basically
(19:28):
when you're in your twenties, as I write in the book, yeah,
I mean what does it mean? What does life mean?
What does life hold for me? And then of course
love the same thing. And I have used that song
and the lyrics from it literally through the course of
my life because at different stages in your life, you know,
(19:51):
you do have something lost, something gain, which comes from
the song you do see life on both sides. You
often see love from both sides. And I just felt
when I was watching Joni Mitchell sitting in what looked
like a throne at the Grammys earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Holding what looked like a specter r.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
What looked like a spector with Brandy Carlisle, one of
my all time new favorites. I was just so touched because,
you know, she survived a brain aneurysm and a lot
of other things in her life, and here she was,
you know, doing what she does so uniquely, which is
to you know, write songs that capture your feelings not
(20:36):
just at one time in your life, but as you
go through life. So, you know, Katie, when I saw that,
I thought, Okay, you know, I am thinking a lot
about where I am in my life now, and you
know I want to you know, reflect on that. So
it was a real chance for me to take some
time and look at life, look at love, talk about
(20:58):
my family, my friends, my you know, political and public activities.
In a way that was kind of you know, taking
stock of where I am right now.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And what was important, you know, and sort of letting
go of things that mattered so much at one point,
but you realize now don't matter at all. In fact, absolutely,
you write in the book, the old words took on
new meaning. Gone was the twenty something shaking off the
rose colored glasses of a love affair and the illusions
of adolescence, and in her place was a matriarch reflecting
(21:33):
on the hard earned wisdom of a long, eventful life.
Is part of this coming to terms for you, Hillary,
the fact, as you write you have more yesterday's than tomorrow's.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think it is. I mean, I feel great. I'm
going to stay as active and involved as I can
until when I can't. But you do have that sense.
I mean, I have three grandchildren now, and you know,
life for me is really about how I can make
the future safer, more inviting, you know, richer in meaning
(22:14):
an opportunity for my grandchildren, for children. I dedicate the
book to my grandchildren and their generation because I want
them to have the kind of future that they deserve.
And so I do think a lot about tomorrow. Even
though my tomorrows are fewer than my yesterday's. I think about, Okay,
(22:34):
what are we going to do? Every single day? To
try to make the world more peaceful, to try to
end conflicts, to try to end the divisions in our country.
What can we do and what role, you know, can
I play in trying to get that done?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
The book opens the book. If you all clap after
every answer, I'm going to run out of time. The
book opens on the afternoon of May thirtieth time, twenty
twenty four, when you and all of America got the
news that former President Donald Trump had been convicted of
thirty four felonies related to election fraud in twenty sixty
(23:12):
in twenty sixteen. So can you set the scene for us, Hillary,
Where were you described that moment at all, the intense
feelings that stirred up in you.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, it was, as you said, late May, and I
was finishing edits on the book, and I was actually
here in Washington at my house here, and I was
working on the edits, and I needed to really concentrate
because I had a limited period of time to get
these edits done. And then I had events that I
had to go to, and so I took my phone
(23:46):
and you know, I put it on mute and I
turned it upside down. So I had no idea what
was going on in the world. And I was, you know,
finally finishing the parts that I was trying to edit,
and you know, I picked it up, see what's going
on and turned it on and like my phone is
blowing up. I mean, honest to goodness, people I hadn't
heard from in years are you know, texting and emailing me,
(24:10):
and they are all saying the same thing. Can you
believe what just happened? And of course I quickly read
that he had been convicted of thirty four felony accounts
for interfering in the twenty sixteen election, because that's what
that trial was about. Hush money was a means to
(24:30):
prevent information from being made public that might have affected
the vote. So it was election interference. And you know,
when you've watched his life and when you've tried to
explain how he's never been held accountable for the bankruptcies
(24:51):
in business and for so much else that happened before
he ever went into politics, you know, to see that
a jury of his peers in the place he grew
up in New York had found him guilty was you know,
very reassuring to me about our system. And I did
get you know, a little bit teary eyed because I thought, Wow,
(25:15):
no one is above the law, no matter what the
United States Supreme Court says, no one is above the law.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
And and so for me, I mean, you know, look,
I mean, I you know, I was accused of a
million things.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I'll probably come up with more tomorrow. I mean, it
just never ends. And you know, went through, you know,
all the process, and thankfully, guess what, I'd never had
done anything that amounted to any kind of uh, you know,
case that could be made because there was nothing there.
And so for me to see that finally he was
being held account was very reassuring it. And you know,
(26:02):
obviously people started sending me memes and you know.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
A lot of Hillary laughing memes, right, a lot of
very funny memes.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But you know, I know that you confess to feeling
a soup song of schadenfreud. Yes, but you also felt
relief as you just said that he would be held accountable.
But will he be because as you know, Judge Mrchon
recently delayed his sentencing to after the election. You mentioned
(26:34):
the Supreme Court saying granting him immunity. Does it feel
like he'll never truly be held accountable at times to you.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well, I think that's a risk. I do think it
depends upon the outcome of the election. Part of the
reason why he is so intense about this election is
because his free him is at stake. And you know,
(27:03):
the the case in New York, Uh, the uh losing
the defamation case, also in New York, his company being
held criminally liable also in New York.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
There's a pattern here that finally people are focused on
that he's a person who you know, cuts corners all
the time, believes he's above the law, gets to you know,
try to point fingers at everybody else. So honestly, Katie,
it depends upon the election. And it is so shocking
(27:39):
to me. How you know the judge in Florida has
literally turned herself into a pretzel trying to find a
way out for him with his boxes and boxes of
highly classified material stored in mar.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
A Lago in the back the bathroom, I mean, which
was really gross.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You can't make this up. Yeah, I mean really, I
guess we know what he's reading or not. I don't
know what you're dealing with it. Yeah, look, I mean,
we have always prided ourselves on a couple of things,
(28:25):
the peaceful transfer of power. And as Secretary of State,
I used to travel around the world basically telling leaders
and you know, the people and countries, look, one election
is not enough. It's not one and you're done, and
then you get to, you know, try to prevent anybody
else from ever challenging you. It's a peaceful transfer of power.
(28:45):
You have to have, you know, free and fair elections,
the rule of law, not the rule of men powerful men,
but the rule of law. And so you know, he
he has very much, along with his allies, you know,
tried to destroy both of those foundational concepts of our country.
(29:08):
And it is incredibly dangerous. As don't take it from me.
All of the people who worked for him who are
now saying, please don't vote for him. I was in
the situation room with him, I was in the oval
office with him. I briefed him, you cannot trust him
and you cannot let him have that kind of power again.
(29:31):
So the people who serve with him are warning us,
and he himself has said he wants to be, you know,
dictator on day one.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Why isn't the campaign employing those people more?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Well, they have been used and they've certainly been mentioned,
and they're all over social media. And just like two
days ago, a big group of former Reagan officials all
came out against him. I mean, Republicans of you know,
principle and prior experience in different Republican administrations are you know,
(30:04):
literally sounding the alarm. So I think that the more
we can get that out, the better, and I'm hoping
the campaign will do more of that. But as Vice
President Harris travels around the country, she's now being introduced
in a lot of places by Republicans who basically say,
you know, I am so and so, and I'm a
lifelong Republican, but I am voting for you know, Vice
(30:29):
President Harris. That is giving permission to people who are
torn about Trump but still feel like, well, you know,
I'm a Republican. I don't agree with the Democrats on
issues and all the rest. The only issue is saving
our democracy. We can argue about everything else later, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
The New York Times recently described Donald Trump as a
unique and durable political force, and I'm curious to get
your insights about why why is he so durable?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Well, first of all, I think it helps to have
some sense of history and to know that in many
societies political systems, people who have an ability to connect
(31:51):
with you know, the fears and the insecurities and the
anger and the hatreds of people in their society are
very effective demagogues, you know, people who stand up and
rail against the other, whoever the other is, whether it's
you know, immigrants or minority groups, whoever it is. And
(32:14):
I think what he has done, uh is to open
the door to that in our country. You know, I
didn't agree with a lot of the Republican presidents that
I've followed in my lifetime. I found ways to work
with some of them. When I was you know, a
senator from New York on nine to eleven, I found
(32:36):
a way to work with President George W. Bush about
you know, rebuilding New York and even though I disagreed
with him about you know, other things. But what we've
got with you know, former President Trump is not a
political difference. It's a it's an almost a psychological character
(32:57):
difference that goes beyond party. He has subdued the Republican
Party to basically give in to him and follow him,
and he does, you know, he does have that quality
that demagogues throughout history have to connect with people on
a really visceral level. So when you say why is
(33:21):
he so durable, I think because he keeps people agitated,
he keeps people angry, he keeps people upset. He's never
trying to calm the waters. He's never trying to bring
people together. One of my favorite examples of this is,
you know, after the twenty sixteen election, which was you know,
a terrible you know, blow in every way. So you know,
(33:44):
I gave my concession speech and basically said, we've we've
got to get you know, we have one president at
a time, got to get behind him, et cetera. And
I really hoped that what I saw in the campaign
would be replaced by a greater sense of responsibility. So
fast forward the inauguration. So, you know, I do believe
(34:04):
in the peaceful transfer of power. And you know, Bill
and I went to the inauguration and we went as
you know, former president, former first lady. We were seated
with former presidents and first ladies. So I was literally
sitting next to George W.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Bush and didn't he say something really funny too?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Well, I was going to tell you, yes, sorry, because
you know, this was my first recognition that the speech,
which you know, when when you when you have had
a close election, when you've lost the popular vote. I mean,
it would be a good idea to stand up in
front of the world and say I'm going to be
the president for everybody, you know. I mean, that's what
(34:44):
we kind of hope you'll do. Instead, it was like
carnage in the streets. It was so dark and dystopian
and mean spirited. And you heard this and I thought, wow,
what is going on? So the speech ends and or
w Bush turns to me and goes, that was some
weird shit. So w right, but apparently there are people
(35:16):
who like it. I don't know what to say, but
I mean that kind of goes to your question, why
is he so durable when he's scaring people and he's
angering people, and he's making hateful comments. Clearly he is
tapping into something in many Americans in their own minds
and hearts, and that's what we have to do a
better job of understanding.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You reveal in the book that you were attempted to
run for president again during the disastrous Trump presidency, at
one point thinking the third time maybe a charm. So
why did you ultimately decide against it, you.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Know, for a number of reasons. I mean one, I
really did think in twenty twenty that he had to
be beaten and Joe Biden could do that. And I
felt that from you know, the beginning of the primary season,
because of the durability that you recognized, and I didn't,
(36:15):
you know, I didn't want it to be personal me
against him. I wanted to be about his record as
as president, the four years that he presided over. And
I thought that that would be very difficult if I
were the candidate. And if you look at that race,
and this is for all the political junkies, and I
know there are some of you out there, you will
(36:38):
remember that the electoral college makes it very difficult to
win four Democrats. And when I won by nearly three
million votes in the popular vote, I lost. Can wait
a minute, no, I know, I know, but yeah, you know,
(37:02):
I lost by like seventy seven thousand votes, right, So
just think about that. If you know, forty nine fifty
thousand votes had gone differently in three states, the outcome
would have been different. So fast forward twenty twenty to
go to Katie's question. Trump got a lot more votes.
I mean, people looked at what he did and failed
(37:25):
to do during COVID at everything else that happened during
those four years, and said, hey, we like that. Biden
got more votes than anybody's ever gotten for president and
won the popular vote by you know, more than seven
and a half million. But here's what I want you
to understand, why I want you to work really, really
(37:47):
really hard for the next fifty days. He only won
the electoral College by one hundred thousand votes, So just
think about that fifty one thousand votes the other way,
even though he won an overwhelming popular victory. So we
are living in a divided country and we can't understand
(38:07):
and the other side can't understand, you know, why we
feel so strongly about what we want to see in
our government and in our you know, society, and they
are feeling exactly the same way about us. And so
the only thing to do, and it's it's labor intensive,
(38:28):
which is why you're seeing the vice president and Governor
Waltz literally criss crossing the same states over and over again.
I mean, one additional bad thing about the electoral college
is you don't campaign to the whole country. You campaigned
to six, seven, eight states, And that's where the ads run,
that's where the candidates travel, that's where the organizers are deployed.
(38:51):
So you will see over and over again those same states.
And that's why we need all of you who care
about the outcome of this election to do everything you
can to help us win those states because they will
be close.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
It seems insane, but it's never going to change, is it.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
The electoral college. You know, I came out against the
electoral college in two thousand in the Gore Bush race
because you know, it was our first indication that, you know,
the Supreme Court wanted to brig our elections basically, which
they did in the gor v. Bush decision, which is
a terrible decision. We've had a lot of other terrible
(39:32):
decisions since then. But I said, look this, if you
want people to feel invested in their country's democracy, you
have to make them feel their vote counts. And if
you're in an all red state or an all blue
state and nobody campaigns to you during the presidential years,
you know, it's hard for you to feel that you matter.
(39:56):
And so I think it's an anachronism. It was one
of the many comp reises that were made back in
the you know Constitution and our founders did that. Honestly,
you know, we should do away with it. I think
the chances of that ever happening are absolutely zero, but
we should. We should at least keep making it an issue.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You know, in your aforementioned epilogue for your audio book,
you Know, you talk about Vice President Harris being chronically
underestimated during her time as VP, as so many women
candidates and politicians are. But you also say maybe it
was PTSD from decades of battling the sexism and double
(40:38):
standards that plague women in politics. There's just something about her.
People say, we get tripped up by the likability test
or the authenticity trap, or people don't like the sound
of our laugh, the tone of our voice, the length
of our hair, you name it. I hear you, sister.
It's all gotten. It's all gotten worse in the age
of social media, with anonymous mobs harassing any woman who
(41:01):
has the temerity to stick her head up. So my question,
Hillary is how concerned are you that both sexism and
racism will impact Kamala Harris's chances of winning? I mean,
I remember there was a Sarah Palin Barbie Doll, but
a Hillary Clinton nutcracker. Yeah. Remember I was so infuriated.
(41:29):
It was at the airport.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
I was like, what, Yeah, I know, I mean many
people sent those to me. They were great stocking stuffers. Look,
we're just among friends here and.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
A few thousand francs.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah. Of course there will be people who will not
feel comfortable or want to vote for the vice president
because she's black, maybe because she's the daughter of immigrants,
and because she is a woman. That is just a fact.
We have to live with that, we have to understand that.
(42:09):
But that's you know, she is not putting that front
and center in her campaign. She doesn't need to. She
is talking about the issues, the kind of president she
will be, how she has policies. You can go to
her website and literally see them all rolled out. But
I think it's fair to say that it is still
(42:31):
difficult to convince some people. And depending upon where you
are in the country, the percentage will, you know, be
greater or lesser that you know, you can be the president,
you can be the commander in chief. And so she's
she and her campaign are fully aware of that. They're
not dwelling on it, and they are inspiring a lot
(42:54):
of people independence Republican women who care deeply about, you know,
their reproductive freedom and whether they get to make decisions
that are right for them and their families. And so
I laid that out because I want to be honest
about the challenges. They haven't gone away, but they've somewhat diminished,
(43:17):
I think, at least I hope. So. So I think
she is running a terrific campaign. She has to stay
on her message about you know, who she is, what
she wants to do, and what a danger Trump poses.
But let's not you know, let's not overlook the fact
there will be some who just can't bring themselves to
(43:40):
vote for a woman. And you know Shirley Chisholm, who
was the first woman on the Democratic side to make
a serious run for the presidency. You know, she once
famously said, you know, I'm black and I'm a woman,
and it's been much harder being a woman, in part
(44:01):
because it's kind of the you know, unfinished business of
human history to ensure that women have equal rights and
equal respect in whatever arena they find themselves. And so
I think she she has to be aware of it,
but not dwell on it. And I think we all
(44:22):
have to be very vigorous in our advocacy for the
Harris Waltz campaign, both on the merits, because I think
they'd be excellent for our country, and I just want
to breathe again, you know what. I think if we can,
if we can you know, defeat Trump now in the
(44:43):
upcoming election, then you know, people can take a deep breath,
and the Republican Party may be able to find it's
you know, conscience and its backbone and be able to
reconstitute itself with people who I would disagree with on issues,
but honestly would not fear for my country's future. And
(45:04):
that's what we have to hope for.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Vice President Harris has been criticized for not being more
specific in outlining her agenda. In a recent Time Santopol,
twenty eight percent of likely voters said they felt they
needed to know more about her, and even after the debate,
many undecided voters told The New York Times that they
still wanted more details about her plans and policies. Should
(45:29):
be she'd be talking about her political agenda with more specificity.
In your view, well.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
That's assuming Donald Trump has put out a really specific
But no, I mean that's a low bar, you know,
I mean actually has with Project twenty twenty five, which
should scare everybody here. You know, I have mixed feelings
about this. I was accused of being uh specific, too
(46:01):
specific a lot of other things, but certainly that, and
I was also I put out a book about my policies,
I gave speeches about my policies. At the end of
the campaign, nobody knew anything about my policies. And I
just think it's a trap. I mean, first of all,
for such a short campaign. I mean, if this were
(46:21):
a year and a half campaign like they usually are,
you would lay things out, you would you know, talk
about them, you would have all kinds of events about them.
I mean, she's got fifty days. So if you go
to our website, she has a lot of really good
policies and they are smart and they could be you know,
transformational about housing, for example, the opportunity to economy, which
(46:44):
is what she's talking about. But when I hear people
say that, it kind of makes me think, well, compared to.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
What or is something else?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Is the.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Text there? And that's right, Katie, I mean is it
like I just need to know more? Well, I think
part of it is what they're really saying I just
have to be more comfortable voting for a woman and
voting for this woman. So she's done, I think, an
(47:17):
absolutely credible job in putting policies out, and she talks
about some of them, but it's more about how she
makes people feel. And you know that Maya Angelou quote
like you know when somebody shows you who they are,
believe them the first time. Well, she's showing that. She's
a positive, energetic, optimistic person who wants to lift people up,
(47:44):
not tear them down. And we need that so much
in our country right now to have that kind of leadership.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I want to get back to you and your speech
at the DNC. I was with a group female friends
last week celebrating one of their birthdays, and they were
marveling at how generous you were in your speech at
the DNC, and one said, I thought this was such
(48:15):
a lovely thing to say. It's as if Hillary took
our broken hearts and allowed them to be released. Ah.
Was it hard for you, Hillary, at any level to
not have the pang of damn? It should have been me?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
Well, I will tell you I was first asked to
speak at the convention when Joe Biden was a candidate,
and you know, obviously wanted to do my very best
to support him if that was to be so. Then
when everything changed and they asked me to speak at
(48:58):
the convention, you know, they asked me to speak on
the very first day, and I really felt like I
had to be a bridge from where I was eight
years ago. What I was trying to do what I
hoped could be done to the vice president. And it
(49:20):
was a very very hard speech to write, and it
was a hard speech to deliver. You know, I practiced
it and would get, you know, pretty teary eyed about
it because it was hard. But it was something that
I felt really good and comfortable doing because I kind
(49:42):
of knew what my assignment was and I knew that
for a lot of people there was this twenty sixteen overhang.
I mean people today, I mean it's eight years people
today come up and they see me and they burst
into tears and they throw their arms around me and
they're sobbing on my shoulder because of twenty six That
must be a little weird. Well no, I mean it's
(50:03):
very touching, but you know it, people know that it
was an unprecedented election, and you know, those people who were,
you know, supporting me. You know, it has been a
very long time, so I knew I had to both
you know, give you know, give everybody permission to be
(50:27):
one hundred percent behind Kamala, and so in delivering it,
you know, going out there in the arena in Chicago,
first of all, you know, I can't see too many
faces beyond like the first couple of rows here because
of the way that the theater here is lit. But
at the convention, the way it was lit is I
(50:48):
could see people, twenty twenty five, thirty forty rows. I
could recognize people, And it was such an intimate moment
even though there were you know, many thousands of people there,
and I felt like it truly was the passing of
the torch. It was like, this can be done, we
are going to do it. And in the speech, remember
(51:09):
the main point I wanted to make it's not just
about finally breaking through that glass ceiling. It's on what's
on the other side of the glass ceiling. What are
the opportunities, what kind of future can we dream about
together to really empower all of our people, especially our
(51:30):
girls and young women. So it was a very emotional
moment for me. And you know it was one of
the most rewarding, you know, public experiences I've ever had.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six h nine five one two five five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
(52:17):
of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(52:37):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.