June 30, 2023 • 41 mins
On this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, produced in partnership with Katie Couric Media and Equip—the leading evidence-based virtual eating disorder treatment program—Katie sits down with one of the stars from Netflix’s Queer Eye, Jonathan Van Ness, and Dr. Jessie Menzel, a clinical psychologist. In honor of Pride month, they discuss the importance of access to care for disordered eating for the LGBTQIA+ community; they also cover Jonathan’s tumultuous childhood, coming to understand his gender identity, his experience with body dysmorphia and disordered eating, and the way these issues uniquely impact those who identify as LGBTQIA+. Jonathan and Jessie offer effusive support, as well as practical advice, on developing a healthy relationship with body image. (A note for readers: this episode contains sensitive material, including eating disorders and sexual assault.)
Link: https://equip.health/?utm_source=PR&utm_medium=Podcast&utm_campaign=KCM_JVN&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the
Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his
hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram.
He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't
(00:25):
always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top,
A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood,
coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with
body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our
listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter,
(00:45):
including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation,
but it might be triggering for some people. In fact,
did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans?
That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes,
and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia,
(01:09):
and in the years since, I've tried to better understand
these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the
conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan
would be the perfect person to join me. I also
wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it,
I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse
(01:30):
Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the
vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual,
evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access
to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP,
and I think what they're doing is critically important. So
we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became
(01:54):
interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about
yourself and how you got interested in helping people who
have a whole panoply of eating disorders.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I
want to just take a quick second because I don't
know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are
a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are
here to bring treatment to people in their homes and
their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea
(02:29):
being that, you know, the key I think to solving
access is to bring treatment to people, and that when
we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system,
that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach
lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me,
I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to
the field of eating disorders because of a really long
(02:50):
standing interest in body image and particularly the things that
influence our body image from a cultural socio and a
cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular.
I grew up in a household where I had a
communications professor for a father, and we would talk about
the media all the time and how it shapes these
(03:11):
ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because
I grew up with three sisters and so that was
a big conversation in our household, and that's really what
led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense
privilege of being able to work with and be trained
by some of the foremost experts in the field. And
(03:32):
it was during my time when I was on faculty
at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders
at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got
to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the
first time, you know, being able to work with individuals
of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and
(03:53):
our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this
is how we can actually help people. And that's what
eventually led me to make the move over to join
doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia,
we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie,
thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime,
(04:13):
and so it meant a lot to me to be
involved in a venture and in a mission that could
really help take these treatments that work out of academia
and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could
access this treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And I think Javin is a real example of the
variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because
I do think for so long we had this image
in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls
suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies
(04:51):
about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan
talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted
relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating
disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie,
because you're right. I think we have this idea that
there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and
it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in
her twenties, and that is so far from the truth.
And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think
(05:36):
of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the
most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular
is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk
for developing eating disorders in large part in general because
of the increased stress that this community faces and a
lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double
(05:59):
appearance ideal that are often held within this community that
places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way.
And I think we can go into a lot more
about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely,
I think a really important group of individuals to talk
about when we talk about awareness of who develops an
eating disorder and who's at risk.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right,
and I'm.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
And all of them you can do.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I
use all of them. So you're you're in the clear.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does
this resonate with you in terms of why folks like
you might be at greater risk?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were
talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties
perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual
women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think
when I first realized that I was having an issue
early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the
(07:08):
library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they
didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book
that was written in the seventies, but it talked about
the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think
that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh,
you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was
perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women.
(07:29):
I think that even this narrative that queer people are
four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like,
queer people are more at risk. I think when you
look at straight men, not to like play a violin
for straight white men, but if you look at straight
men and you look at the rise of you know,
performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on
(07:50):
Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids,
who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an
insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood
leading men who have to get into really intense shape
for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like
oh god, x y Z. When a man when you
(08:13):
have to book up and all of a sudden, you've
been a certain way for your whole career, and I
can think of a few right off the top of
my head. And then all of a sudden, you book
a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular,
and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids
are capped, you're doing stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean,
so this idea that.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
It's only queer men and that it's only women, I
think is not true. And I also think that on
my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you
know science. We have this idea of science and the
coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and
that the data that comes up in science is infallible
or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely
not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax,
I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society
(08:57):
because the questions that we even ask in science are
based off of the questions that we're asking in society.
So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to
when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they
don't know how to control their food intake, when they
don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
How to ask for help.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know,
it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So
I just think we have to be careful when we're
talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who
absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's
fitness covers and they think that's normal.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I do think that also happens in.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
The queer community, but I really think that it happens
probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity
does not allow them to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I
think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if
I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful
about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that
people having a screwed up relationship with food and their
bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external
(10:04):
appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows
no boundaries.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're
exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something
that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches
it touches older men and women, it touches young kids.
I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all
steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way
(10:34):
we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat,
and that pushes all of us to these extremes and
more importantly sends this message that like we should never
be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have
to love the way we look, but also we should
never stop working on how we look, and we should
always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just
sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like
(10:56):
they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and
to forever be read to the next fad diet or
the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better.
It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching
for that perfect look that we can ever find, and
you're right, it touches all of us.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because
we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little
bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's
the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I
do think there are some common threads that connect everyone
who has struggles in this area. And as I read
your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like
(11:48):
there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers.
Because you seem like a person full of joy, such
an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in
other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you
wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey
(12:08):
a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like,
and I talk about this a lot in the book.
I don't think it's like this like finish line that
you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I
did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to
put that in a pretty little package and put it
up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal
with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know,
it took me a long time to like learn to
love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is
very much like a few steps forward, a few steps
(12:34):
back sort of things. So I feel like, you know,
just to get that out of the way. But yes,
as a child, I think one of the things that
sticks out for me the most when I think about
over the Top and writing over the top. When I
was going into some of those really formative like core memories,
it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one.
I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip
(12:54):
on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be
was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and
I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom,
when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just
I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals,
and I was like, all these other people have these
abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals.
I have this like softer belly and I don't get it.
(13:15):
And and I remember, you know, there was a lot
of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just
don't have.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh
my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
There's a lot of like fear around like not looking
like other young you know, other people my age, and
then looking at older men and being like, oh my god,
how am I ever going to look like that?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I don't look like that now.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
So there's just being a lot of like fear around,
you know, the way that my body looked. And I
think that for me, I think a lot of the
body image was like as I came of age and
realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard
to date as a young gay person in a rural space.
But then there's all these like really intense like standards
in the gay world around like what you're meant to
(14:02):
look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better,
but that still is like a very like you know,
fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really
like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the
gay community is still a thing.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think
it's really about validation.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
That's where I was going with that, is that it's
like you want to look a certain way so that
people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're
getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute,
They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly,
and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get
cuter and butche it up so people will accept you.
And I think that also with men, like so the
body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself
(14:40):
out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you,
a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about
I think it's about rejection and validation and in order
to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected,
or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking
for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's
why men have a harder time speaking to it, because
that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was,
you know, seeing all of this play out in real time,
(15:03):
you know, as a kid as well. It's not like
I just learned this, Like I was observing this as
a child as well.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture
and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the
bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked
as a kid, or you know, how did that all
play out in your head in terms of having it
translate into your relationship with food.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh,
like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight,
and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight.
So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning
of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food.
At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of
sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot
of lack of control with that. There's a lot of
(15:49):
confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret.
But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like
you're queer or trans are non binary because you were
sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot,
like in comments when I speak to being a survivor
of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I
know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom
Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay,
(16:13):
the reason why this is important is because just like
eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put
ten people in the same situation and they're all going
to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma.
So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not
mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of
other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was
like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual
(16:33):
sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes,
like I think because I didn't have control and I
didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food
was this place where I could feel better. I didn't
understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but
like I was, so I was just like loaded up
on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control,
(16:54):
or at least I.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Thought I did.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
When we come back, JVN talks about how he came
to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're
back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God,
other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially,
you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean, you deal with with people all the time
where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise,
if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I
think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right
with your behavior. And then of course there's the body
(17:50):
dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always
focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with
who you are and what you look like. So hearing
Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms
of a lot of your other patients.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan,
how you kind of connect this to emotions and how
people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend
to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one
of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right,
eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only
about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive,
(18:36):
and it's it's so much more complex than that. And
you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this
really complex connection between our emotions and often like for
some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for
some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He
for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise,
and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those
(19:00):
behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way,
especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing,
it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people
reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then
they get trapped into that cycle because it works so
well in that moment right to numb out or to escape,
(19:22):
or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then
ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins
to cause problems. And so the key is really finding
what are those other strategies or those ways that I
can soothe myself, that I can take care of those
emotions in a way that is much healthier for me.
And I think, like the marker of recovery is how
(19:45):
am I doing most of the time, How am I
dealing with those emotions most of the time as I
move forward in my life.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
So really for me, like I luckily, and I think
that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like
it's no more about if I look cute or not.
I feel like I look really cute. I feel like
I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia
where I actually think I look cuter than I am,
like through a lot of self work. I think I
really do. But I think that was like a lot
of like self work, and like I have like confidence now,
which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns
(20:13):
and so like you know, even though I still I
think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still
have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself
like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that
like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having
more disordered eating.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I don't think I've ever read so much fun on
a podcast in my life.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like
this difference right between like it's okay to use food
in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste,
right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact
that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just
thinking about why am I using this? And what is
the extreme and what is the function of why I'm
using this? And that's like that's part of that key
(20:58):
to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy
it and even just because it's going to bring me
a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now,
or am I using this to try to like numb
out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going
out on for me? And that's really the difference right there.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I
know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if
I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad,
then I would be so full of shame and so
(21:34):
angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would
open the door and open the floodgates and I would
eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude
that I blew it for the day. I'm going to
have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many
people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves
(21:57):
up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked
about when they were sexually abused as a child, and
I know they wrote about it in their book about
being in church and having an older church member, And
I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down
(22:18):
this path? But how does that set one up for
these kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for
the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an
eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the
eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely.
We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For
some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason.
(22:49):
We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily
specific to a support system or a family or whatever.
Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and
eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event.
We just don't know why it hits some people and
not others. And trauma does so many complex things to
(23:09):
a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop,
and that constant and self talk, and that shame and
the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations,
it sets you up for a lifetype of It could
be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult,
painful emotions and memories that so many of us we
(23:32):
just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's
this what we call kind of a general risk factor.
It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a
general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems.
And so it's important for the community and eating disorders
because we need to understand that we're going to see
higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready
to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to
(23:54):
make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and
to give them a really safe space for healing.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and
helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive,
the fact that there are many different people with different
views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are.
And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime.
(24:23):
Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these
developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance
of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of
your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in
a way that you never did before in years past?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I think living in Texas because I've been here for
three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level,
I do when I'm at home, when I go out
to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if
I need to run for my life, like I don't
want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the
(25:17):
same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just
I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I
don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So we haven't come as far as I was hoping
we have.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean,
if I think if I had a kid like that
would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me
to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I
mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas.
But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive
order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate
(25:56):
any parents who had kids that they that other parents
thought look too queer at school.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
We're trans you know.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and
I think when I go I call it my capitalist
guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses,
I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool
shit that I never thought I could have personally, and
like there's you know when I think about like that
I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done
her hair, like that I have, you know, two best
selling not like two best selling books in the New
(26:24):
York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had.
I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never
thought that I could do that. But also at the
same time, like it's not like as you said, like
it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I
have come to.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
World is way more open on gender, Like my world
is more open on like expressing myself. But you know,
when I go to the state Capitol and I protest,
and I have like parents, you know, coming up to
me and showing me pictures of their eight year old
and their seven year old and their ten year old
and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like
we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that
our kids are getting taken away from us.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right
after this. If you want to get smarter every morning
with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on
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(27:22):
com and We're back.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like,
can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like
can we just like I've never had so much mine?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway,
I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
I love you guys.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse
would be my guests that don't have some kind of
body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious
being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship
with your body and how you have been able to
(28:11):
navigate that because talk about complex.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot
of that was my friend a Loake that taught me
about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I
always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in
with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls.
Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt
aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially
(28:36):
were meant to function in the binary like, I never
felt a part of that conversation. I did not have
an internal sense of like what it was to be
a man, or like what it is to be a
man and the way that we like think about it.
So then when I met a Loak and started you know,
learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly
because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so
(28:58):
many fans were like, are you trans?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Are you non binary?
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So I you know, like and I talk about that,
like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet,
I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup.
I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing
home to Like I definitely had like a going out
to bring home a guy me and then like the
real me. And I always felt like I had to
like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to
be like this is how I really look, this is
how I really am. Like that was actually just like
(29:22):
me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes
me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I
understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally
who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like
that is totally what I am and what I've always been.
And so that just really resonated. And I think in
my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how
like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain
(29:45):
associated with like not being the fullness of who I am,
like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual
partner number gets to have like a comma in it,
which mind died, so it became much more about, like,
I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already
got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind
of empty. So I realized it was way more important
(30:05):
for me to be true to myself because that was
actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like
rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know,
compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to
my sexual like self healed more, I was able to
like be, you know, more fully who I am.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt
qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on
gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for
that or that there was a vacuum out there for
that kind of treatment.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is
something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP,
about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia
plus community, and so we are working with a higher
proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in
the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is,
(31:09):
I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment
settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in
those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my
role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do
is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to
work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community,
and thinking about how we can make our treatment program
(31:30):
a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals
from start to finish. And so our program includes looking
at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the
questions that we ask, the language we use on our
intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make
sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences.
(31:51):
And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment
and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation,
that these two things the integral, not a part and
not separate. It's not like we can take someone who
is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going
to like set that part of you aside for a second,
and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder,
(32:11):
and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind
our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care
at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk
about both of these things at the same time because
they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex
relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone
who feels like they were born in the wrong body,
(32:34):
someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they
see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not
everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for
those that do, it is so painful, it causes so
much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a
way to try to bring their physical self more closely
(32:55):
in line with their identity and how they see themselves,
or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that.
So an eating disorder might serve as a way for
someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they
don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating
disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more
fem or more mask like in their build and their
(33:16):
physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an
eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary
without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to
their gender identity. And so what our training and what
this program includes is like, is it heads to our
clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues
(33:39):
that are specific to this community, to be affirming of
that identity, to understand how that is relating to their
eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the
entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear
about that approach, does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so
that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I
am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you
better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where
do I sign up?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I need it?
Speaker 1 (34:15):
You all can talk about that after the podcast. But
to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally,
Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help.
I sort of feel like, when people need help, people
need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm
curious how you can develop something that will reach some
(34:38):
of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk
about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch
of other people who have come out about their own
struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk
about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've
struggled with. I think there are more men now talking
about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it
comes to their physical looks and how they treat their
bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this
(35:09):
is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment,
because I think part of the idea here is that
when you can reach out for help by going onto
the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone,
it takes away some of those barriers that you have
to otherwise face and going out and asking for help,
of having to make phone calls to go physically walk
(35:33):
into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I
think there are a lot of people who still don't
feel like they can do that or maybe know they
need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it.
And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment
at home is because I think that helps solve the
access problem. We can take away some of the shame
and the stigma associated with mental health because you can
do this right from the comfort of your own home.
(35:55):
And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move
this forward, but we need to have more creative ways
to help these people right now.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot
of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a
very deep level, so many of these issues, but you
remain a work in progress like all of us. And
I'm curious for people who might be listening to this,
who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance,
(36:26):
what are some of the tools that can help them
on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me
with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many
modalities of healing, like the health of any size community,
and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other
ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad,
some are this. It's just there's so many different ways
of healing. But one thing that I thought was really
interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size
(36:59):
community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous,
you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on
the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love
and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the
voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the
voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying
with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself,
I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice
(37:20):
is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice.
That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how
you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece
is available to us at all times.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
And that is true.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
It might not feel true, but it is because that's
I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's
talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really
that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power,
you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all
times so we just disconnect from the voice in our
head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what
(37:52):
I would say to you for the end of your
gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You
kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people
are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How
do you try to get people to, I don't know,
give themselves a break.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie,
And I think Javian you said it so well. It's
there is always this potential within you, I think to
shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's
so hard to do. But I think what I really
encourage people to do is you need to look inside
yourself and figure out what is important to me, What
(38:43):
are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks
to me? And I think that the more that we
can we can't do a lot to sort of control
what happens in our brain, but what we can control
a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take.
And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that
that is going to bring me happiness? What is it
that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in
(39:03):
my life, and having to make this conscious effort to
bring yourself back to that all the time, and to
make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and
how you're acting is in line with what is important
to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in
your life.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So it can be and ways big and small, but
kind of like getting out of your own head and
seeing how you can change someone else's day or life
or experience.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And that's I think by finding what is it that's
truly important, right and that might not be something inside you,
it might be outside of you. It might be your community,
helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions
are in surface of those things. Those are the things
we can control and bring ourselves.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Back to and I think you both are doing that
every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN.
It's such a treat to see you again. And I
really enjoyed this conversation. I did too.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed
with you and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
This is amazing to talk about both of you today.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have
a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six h nine five point two five
to five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
(40:37):
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
The executive producers are Meet Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed our theme music. For more information about
(40:58):
today's episode, or to sign up or my newsletter wake
Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
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For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the
Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his
hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram.
He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't
(00:25):
always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top,
A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood,
coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with
body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our
listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter,
(00:45):
including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation,
but it might be triggering for some people. In fact,
did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans?
That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes,
and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia,
(01:09):
and in the years since, I've tried to better understand
these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the
conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan
would be the perfect person to join me. I also
wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it,
I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse
(01:30):
Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the
vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual,
evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access
to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP,
and I think what they're doing is critically important. So
we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became
(01:54):
interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about
yourself and how you got interested in helping people who
have a whole panoply of eating disorders.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I
want to just take a quick second because I don't
know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are
a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are
here to bring treatment to people in their homes and
their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea
(02:29):
being that, you know, the key I think to solving
access is to bring treatment to people, and that when
we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system,
that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach
lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me,
I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to
the field of eating disorders because of a really long
(02:50):
standing interest in body image and particularly the things that
influence our body image from a cultural socio and a
cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular.
I grew up in a household where I had a
communications professor for a father, and we would talk about
the media all the time and how it shapes these
(03:11):
ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because
I grew up with three sisters and so that was
a big conversation in our household, and that's really what
led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense
privilege of being able to work with and be trained
by some of the foremost experts in the field. And
(03:32):
it was during my time when I was on faculty
at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders
at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got
to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the
first time, you know, being able to work with individuals
of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and
(03:53):
our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this
is how we can actually help people. And that's what
eventually led me to make the move over to join
doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia,
we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie,
thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime,
(04:13):
and so it meant a lot to me to be
involved in a venture and in a mission that could
really help take these treatments that work out of academia
and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could
access this treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And I think Javin is a real example of the
variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because
I do think for so long we had this image
in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls
suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies
(04:51):
about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan
talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted
relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating
disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie,
because you're right. I think we have this idea that
there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and
it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in
her twenties, and that is so far from the truth.
And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think
(05:36):
of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the
most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular
is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk
for developing eating disorders in large part in general because
of the increased stress that this community faces and a
lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double
(05:59):
appearance ideal that are often held within this community that
places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way.
And I think we can go into a lot more
about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely,
I think a really important group of individuals to talk
about when we talk about awareness of who develops an
eating disorder and who's at risk.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right,
and I'm.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
And all of them you can do.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I
use all of them. So you're you're in the clear.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does
this resonate with you in terms of why folks like
you might be at greater risk?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were
talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties
perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual
women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think
when I first realized that I was having an issue
early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the
(07:08):
library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they
didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book
that was written in the seventies, but it talked about
the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think
that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh,
you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was
perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women.
(07:29):
I think that even this narrative that queer people are
four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like,
queer people are more at risk. I think when you
look at straight men, not to like play a violin
for straight white men, but if you look at straight
men and you look at the rise of you know,
performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on
(07:50):
Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids,
who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an
insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood
leading men who have to get into really intense shape
for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like
oh god, x y Z. When a man when you
(08:13):
have to book up and all of a sudden, you've
been a certain way for your whole career, and I
can think of a few right off the top of
my head. And then all of a sudden, you book
a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular,
and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids
are capped, you're doing stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean,
so this idea that.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
It's only queer men and that it's only women, I
think is not true. And I also think that on
my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you
know science. We have this idea of science and the
coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and
that the data that comes up in science is infallible
or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely
not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax,
I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society
(08:57):
because the questions that we even ask in science are
based off of the questions that we're asking in society.
So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to
when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they
don't know how to control their food intake, when they
don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
How to ask for help.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know,
it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So
I just think we have to be careful when we're
talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who
absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's
fitness covers and they think that's normal.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I do think that also happens in.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
The queer community, but I really think that it happens
probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity
does not allow them to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I
think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if
I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful
about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that
people having a screwed up relationship with food and their
bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external
(10:04):
appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows
no boundaries.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're
exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something
that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches
it touches older men and women, it touches young kids.
I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all
steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way
(10:34):
we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat,
and that pushes all of us to these extremes and
more importantly sends this message that like we should never
be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have
to love the way we look, but also we should
never stop working on how we look, and we should
always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just
sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like
(10:56):
they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and
to forever be read to the next fad diet or
the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better.
It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching
for that perfect look that we can ever find, and
you're right, it touches all of us.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because
we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little
bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's
the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I
do think there are some common threads that connect everyone
who has struggles in this area. And as I read
your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like
(11:48):
there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers.
Because you seem like a person full of joy, such
an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in
other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you
wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey
(12:08):
a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like,
and I talk about this a lot in the book.
I don't think it's like this like finish line that
you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I
did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to
put that in a pretty little package and put it
up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal
with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know,
it took me a long time to like learn to
love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is
very much like a few steps forward, a few steps
(12:34):
back sort of things. So I feel like, you know,
just to get that out of the way. But yes,
as a child, I think one of the things that
sticks out for me the most when I think about
over the Top and writing over the top. When I
was going into some of those really formative like core memories,
it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one.
I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip
(12:54):
on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be
was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and
I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom,
when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just
I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals,
and I was like, all these other people have these
abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals.
I have this like softer belly and I don't get it.
(13:15):
And and I remember, you know, there was a lot
of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just
don't have.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh
my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
There's a lot of like fear around like not looking
like other young you know, other people my age, and
then looking at older men and being like, oh my god,
how am I ever going to look like that?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I don't look like that now.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
So there's just being a lot of like fear around,
you know, the way that my body looked. And I
think that for me, I think a lot of the
body image was like as I came of age and
realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard
to date as a young gay person in a rural space.
But then there's all these like really intense like standards
in the gay world around like what you're meant to
(14:02):
look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better,
but that still is like a very like you know,
fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really
like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the
gay community is still a thing.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think
it's really about validation.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
That's where I was going with that, is that it's
like you want to look a certain way so that
people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're
getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute,
They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly,
and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get
cuter and butche it up so people will accept you.
And I think that also with men, like so the
body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself
(14:40):
out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you,
a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about
I think it's about rejection and validation and in order
to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected,
or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking
for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's
why men have a harder time speaking to it, because
that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was,
you know, seeing all of this play out in real time,
(15:03):
you know, as a kid as well. It's not like
I just learned this, Like I was observing this as
a child as well.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture
and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the
bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked
as a kid, or you know, how did that all
play out in your head in terms of having it
translate into your relationship with food.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh,
like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight,
and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight.
So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning
of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food.
At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of
sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot
of lack of control with that. There's a lot of
(15:49):
confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret.
But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like
you're queer or trans are non binary because you were
sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot,
like in comments when I speak to being a survivor
of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I
know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom
Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay,
(16:13):
the reason why this is important is because just like
eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put
ten people in the same situation and they're all going
to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma.
So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not
mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of
other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was
like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual
(16:33):
sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes,
like I think because I didn't have control and I
didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food
was this place where I could feel better. I didn't
understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but
like I was, so I was just like loaded up
on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control,
(16:54):
or at least I.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Thought I did.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
When we come back, JVN talks about how he came
to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're
back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God,
other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially,
you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean, you deal with with people all the time
where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise,
if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I
think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right
with your behavior. And then of course there's the body
(17:50):
dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always
focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with
who you are and what you look like. So hearing
Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms
of a lot of your other patients.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan,
how you kind of connect this to emotions and how
people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend
to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one
of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right,
eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only
about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive,
(18:36):
and it's it's so much more complex than that. And
you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this
really complex connection between our emotions and often like for
some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for
some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He
for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise,
and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those
(19:00):
behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way,
especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing,
it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people
reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then
they get trapped into that cycle because it works so
well in that moment right to numb out or to escape,
(19:22):
or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then
ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins
to cause problems. And so the key is really finding
what are those other strategies or those ways that I
can soothe myself, that I can take care of those
emotions in a way that is much healthier for me.
And I think, like the marker of recovery is how
(19:45):
am I doing most of the time, How am I
dealing with those emotions most of the time as I
move forward in my life.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
So really for me, like I luckily, and I think
that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like
it's no more about if I look cute or not.
I feel like I look really cute. I feel like
I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia
where I actually think I look cuter than I am,
like through a lot of self work. I think I
really do. But I think that was like a lot
of like self work, and like I have like confidence now,
which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns
(20:13):
and so like you know, even though I still I
think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still
have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself
like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that
like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having
more disordered eating.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I don't think I've ever read so much fun on
a podcast in my life.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like
this difference right between like it's okay to use food
in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste,
right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact
that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just
thinking about why am I using this? And what is
the extreme and what is the function of why I'm
using this? And that's like that's part of that key
(20:58):
to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy
it and even just because it's going to bring me
a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now,
or am I using this to try to like numb
out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going
out on for me? And that's really the difference right there.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I
know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if
I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad,
then I would be so full of shame and so
(21:34):
angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would
open the door and open the floodgates and I would
eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude
that I blew it for the day. I'm going to
have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many
people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves
(21:57):
up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked
about when they were sexually abused as a child, and
I know they wrote about it in their book about
being in church and having an older church member, And
I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down
(22:18):
this path? But how does that set one up for
these kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for
the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an
eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the
eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely.
We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For
some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason.
(22:49):
We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily
specific to a support system or a family or whatever.
Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and
eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event.
We just don't know why it hits some people and
not others. And trauma does so many complex things to
(23:09):
a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop,
and that constant and self talk, and that shame and
the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations,
it sets you up for a lifetype of It could
be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult,
painful emotions and memories that so many of us we
(23:32):
just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's
this what we call kind of a general risk factor.
It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a
general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems.
And so it's important for the community and eating disorders
because we need to understand that we're going to see
higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready
to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to
(23:54):
make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and
to give them a really safe space for healing.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and
helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive,
the fact that there are many different people with different
views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are.
And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime.
(24:23):
Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these
developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance
of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of
your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in
a way that you never did before in years past?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I think living in Texas because I've been here for
three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level,
I do when I'm at home, when I go out
to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if
I need to run for my life, like I don't
want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the
(25:17):
same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just
I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I
don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So we haven't come as far as I was hoping
we have.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean,
if I think if I had a kid like that
would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me
to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I
mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas.
But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive
order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate
(25:56):
any parents who had kids that they that other parents
thought look too queer at school.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
We're trans you know.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and
I think when I go I call it my capitalist
guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses,
I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool
shit that I never thought I could have personally, and
like there's you know when I think about like that
I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done
her hair, like that I have, you know, two best
selling not like two best selling books in the New
(26:24):
York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had.
I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never
thought that I could do that. But also at the
same time, like it's not like as you said, like
it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I
have come to.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
World is way more open on gender, Like my world
is more open on like expressing myself. But you know,
when I go to the state Capitol and I protest,
and I have like parents, you know, coming up to
me and showing me pictures of their eight year old
and their seven year old and their ten year old
and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like
we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that
our kids are getting taken away from us.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right
after this. If you want to get smarter every morning
with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on
health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our
daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot
(27:22):
com and We're back.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like,
can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like
can we just like I've never had so much mine?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway,
I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
I love you guys.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse
would be my guests that don't have some kind of
body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious
being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship
with your body and how you have been able to
(28:11):
navigate that because talk about complex.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot
of that was my friend a Loake that taught me
about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I
always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in
with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls.
Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt
aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially
(28:36):
were meant to function in the binary like, I never
felt a part of that conversation. I did not have
an internal sense of like what it was to be
a man, or like what it is to be a
man and the way that we like think about it.
So then when I met a Loak and started you know,
learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly
because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so
(28:58):
many fans were like, are you trans?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Are you non binary?
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So I you know, like and I talk about that,
like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet,
I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup.
I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing
home to Like I definitely had like a going out
to bring home a guy me and then like the
real me. And I always felt like I had to
like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to
be like this is how I really look, this is
how I really am. Like that was actually just like
(29:22):
me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes
me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I
understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally
who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like
that is totally what I am and what I've always been.
And so that just really resonated. And I think in
my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how
like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain
(29:45):
associated with like not being the fullness of who I am,
like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual
partner number gets to have like a comma in it,
which mind died, so it became much more about, like,
I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already
got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind
of empty. So I realized it was way more important
(30:05):
for me to be true to myself because that was
actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like
rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know,
compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to
my sexual like self healed more, I was able to
like be, you know, more fully who I am.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt
qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on
gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for
that or that there was a vacuum out there for
that kind of treatment.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is
something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP,
about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia
plus community, and so we are working with a higher
proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in
the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is,
(31:09):
I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment
settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in
those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my
role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do
is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to
work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community,
and thinking about how we can make our treatment program
(31:30):
a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals
from start to finish. And so our program includes looking
at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the
questions that we ask, the language we use on our
intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make
sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences.
(31:51):
And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment
and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation,
that these two things the integral, not a part and
not separate. It's not like we can take someone who
is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going
to like set that part of you aside for a second,
and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder,
(32:11):
and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind
our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care
at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk
about both of these things at the same time because
they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex
relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone
who feels like they were born in the wrong body,
(32:34):
someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they
see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not
everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for
those that do, it is so painful, it causes so
much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a
way to try to bring their physical self more closely
(32:55):
in line with their identity and how they see themselves,
or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that.
So an eating disorder might serve as a way for
someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they
don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating
disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more
fem or more mask like in their build and their
(33:16):
physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an
eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary
without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to
their gender identity. And so what our training and what
this program includes is like, is it heads to our
clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues
(33:39):
that are specific to this community, to be affirming of
that identity, to understand how that is relating to their
eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the
entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear
about that approach, does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so
that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I
am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you
better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where
do I sign up?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I need it?
Speaker 1 (34:15):
You all can talk about that after the podcast. But
to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally,
Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help.
I sort of feel like, when people need help, people
need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm
curious how you can develop something that will reach some
(34:38):
of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk
about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch
of other people who have come out about their own
struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk
about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've
struggled with. I think there are more men now talking
about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it
comes to their physical looks and how they treat their
bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this
(35:09):
is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment,
because I think part of the idea here is that
when you can reach out for help by going onto
the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone,
it takes away some of those barriers that you have
to otherwise face and going out and asking for help,
of having to make phone calls to go physically walk
(35:33):
into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I
think there are a lot of people who still don't
feel like they can do that or maybe know they
need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it.
And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment
at home is because I think that helps solve the
access problem. We can take away some of the shame
and the stigma associated with mental health because you can
do this right from the comfort of your own home.
(35:55):
And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move
this forward, but we need to have more creative ways
to help these people right now.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot
of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a
very deep level, so many of these issues, but you
remain a work in progress like all of us. And
I'm curious for people who might be listening to this,
who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance,
(36:26):
what are some of the tools that can help them
on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me
with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many
modalities of healing, like the health of any size community,
and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other
ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad,
some are this. It's just there's so many different ways
of healing. But one thing that I thought was really
interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size
(36:59):
community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous,
you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on
the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love
and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the
voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the
voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying
with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself,
I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice
(37:20):
is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice.
That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how
you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece
is available to us at all times.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
And that is true.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
It might not feel true, but it is because that's
I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's
talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really
that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power,
you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all
times so we just disconnect from the voice in our
head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what
(37:52):
I would say to you for the end of your
gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You
kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people
are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How
do you try to get people to, I don't know,
give themselves a break.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie,
And I think Javian you said it so well. It's
there is always this potential within you, I think to
shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's
so hard to do. But I think what I really
encourage people to do is you need to look inside
yourself and figure out what is important to me, What
(38:43):
are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks
to me? And I think that the more that we
can we can't do a lot to sort of control
what happens in our brain, but what we can control
a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take.
And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that
that is going to bring me happiness? What is it
that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in
(39:03):
my life, and having to make this conscious effort to
bring yourself back to that all the time, and to
make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and
how you're acting is in line with what is important
to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in
your life.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So it can be and ways big and small, but
kind of like getting out of your own head and
seeing how you can change someone else's day or life
or experience.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And that's I think by finding what is it that's
truly important, right and that might not be something inside you,
it might be outside of you. It might be your community,
helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions
are in surface of those things. Those are the things
we can control and bring ourselves.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Back to and I think you both are doing that
every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN.
It's such a treat to see you again. And I
really enjoyed this conversation. I did too.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed
with you and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
This is amazing to talk about both of you today.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have
a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six h nine five point two five
to five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
(40:37):
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
The executive producers are Meet Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed our theme music. For more information about
(40:58):
today's episode, or to sign up or my newsletter wake
Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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Host
Katie Couric
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