Adam Kinzinger and Mary Trump don’t have a lot in common on the surface:but in a moment where politics are dividing more people than ever before, Kinzinger and Trump find they have more and more in common. January 6th was a watershed moment for them both: Kinzinger’s departure from the current GOP was basically assured with his participation in the Congressional hearings on the matter, and a worst-fears-realized anguish after the discord crystalized a drive for activism in Mary Trump.
As Katie’s plus one, Mary Trump digs deep with Kinzinger on their shared fight for the future of democracy and how the country may find a path forward. Plus, Kinzinger is full of insider, behind-the-scenes explainers from his time in Congress, from what exactly is meant by “military aid” to the impact on history of Kevin McCarthy’s visits to Mar a Lago.
You’ll find yourself walking away from this conversation convinced there’s a way forward from the current state of political division and dysfunction, and gratitude that Mary Trump and Adam Kinzinger are on the case.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next Question.
Welcome to this episode, every one of Katie plus one.
I have a special guest today who is going to
join me in interviewing Adam Kinsinger, and it is none
other than Ms. Mary Trump.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi Mary, Hey Katie, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with
you because you and Adam have a lot in common
in some ways, don't you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It's very surprising because as people can probably imagine, politically,
we probably have very little in common. But we've both
been through some experiences that have given us a chance
to see what it's like on the outside. And I'm
really looking forward to hearing what he has to say
(01:01):
about the main event, which is actually when you and I.
I think it might have been the first or second
time you and I.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Spoke after January sixth.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
January sixth, twenty twenty one, but also family history, his
experiences with his family disinheriting him essentially because of his
political stance, and he has emerged as a fascinating figure
in American politics and as somebody who has had the
(01:30):
courage of his convictions. And I also am really appreciative
of his decision to stay in the fight, which is
also something hopefully we'll get into definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, let's welcome Adam Kinzinger to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You ready, all set? I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Adam Kinzinger, Welcome to the podcast, and I'd like to
introduce you to Mary Trump. Mary meet Adam, Adam meet Mary.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hey, it's good to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It is a pleasure. How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
The pleasures all mine?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm great, Thanks and congratulations on the excellent book.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun to write it,
and I'll probably never write a book again in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I's going to say it was fun.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Okay, it was okay, and it's fun to have it written.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That is the best part having it done.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Adam, your new book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and
Liberty in our divided country. I can't think of a
book that is needed more than this right now, given
the state of affairs. But let me start by asking
you a pretty boring question, why why did you want
to write this book?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
You know, it's funny because somebody I don't even remember
who it was, told me, h, what is it? They said,
like writing a book is an inherently kind of like
arrogant feeling experience because I'm like and I struggle with that,
like who would want to read? Why would I put
any of my details? But the reason I ended up
doing it is I realized that my story tells the
broader story. It tells the story of what's happened to
(02:59):
the Republican Party. You know, I talk about the things
I got wrong and the things I should have seen,
but I think it's important to be able to like, yes, Okay,
here's my story, but here's throughout the whole thing, like
what happened in some of these like really important points,
because I think the only way to come back from
this moment we're in, this division is to recognize the
problem and recognize frankly, how we got here so we
(03:21):
can push back against it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, we thought that you and Mary would be
really interesting conversationalists because, as we said earlier when I
was introducing Mary to our listeners, you all actually have
a lot in common.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, first of all, I know the experience about the
letter you received from your family. Yes, and obviously the
circumstances were different, but I know what that feels like.
But also I just wanted to mention that my dad
was a pilot, and I didn't realize until I read
your book that you also were a pilot.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So yeah, my dad was in the National Guard and
he taught himself to fly when he was in college.
Well actually so his first plane was a Piper Cub
and then we had a Cherokee for a little bit.
But anyway, I thought, and he was of course a
professional pilot for twa in nineteen sixty four, so I
thought that was really cool. You used to fly your
(04:14):
your single edgend plane back and forth to work, which
is amazing. Everybody should be able to do that. And
of course your experience on January sixth, which I think
goes right to the heart of what a lot of
us experienced that several removes certainly, so, I honestly would
not have imagined that you and I would have that
(04:36):
much in common. And also I wanted to at the
very beginning, I'll thank you for your work in electing
pro democracy candidates. I have a pack that has exactly
the same mission. So it's it's fascinating and I've admired
your stance for a long time now, so it's always
nice when there's a little more context, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
And also I want to say thank you to you
because you've spoken out and you probably take an extra
level of vitriol that even I don't and I appreciate that.
And and yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned the
family letter. Here's the crazy thing. So I would go
see my folks probably once a month, right drive down.
They lived a couple hours south of me, and I
(05:19):
happened to show up on a day this letter showed
up to their house addressed to me. It's like I
was there when the mailman came, and I'm like, all right,
this is you know, in politics, sometimes get weird letters
that are certain that are since certified, and but I
saw the return names and I'm like, there's like, I
think ten or twelve of them on it. And I
was like, oh, well, that's family. This has got to
be wonderful. So I opened this up and the first
(05:42):
two words were oh my, and I remember thinking, oh,
they're going to say, oh my, oh proud we are
of what you've done, and it says what a disappointment
you are to us into God. And I remember just
kind of like kind of blinking and like, wait, did
it what? And I read this thing and I'm going
to just you can find the letter out there.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Just you know, this letter is unbelievable, Adam. I mean
when you read the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
It's stunning. It's stunning, It is.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So intense. Can I read a few lines? Yeah, I'm
just going to start from the beginning, Adam. Oh my,
what a disappointment you are to us and to God.
We were once so proud of your accomplishments. Instead, you
go against your Christian principles and join the devil's army,
Democrats and the fake news media. How do you call
(06:34):
yourself a Christian when you join the devil's army believing
an abortion. We thought you were smart enough to see
how the left is brainwashing so many so called good people,
including yourself and many other GOP members. You have even
fallen for their socialism ideals. So so sad. President Trump
(06:55):
is not perfect, but neither are you or any of
us for that matter. It's not for us to judge
or to be judge. But he is a Christian. If
God can forgive and use King David in the Bible,
he can do the same with President Trump. Just let
me read a couple of more lines for your information.
Many more family members feel the same way as we do.
(07:16):
They just didn't have the courage to sign our letter
or write their own letter, not us. We are thoroughly
disgusted with you, and by the way, we're calling for
your removal from office. I have received numerous calls covering
your actions and egregious behavior towards our President of the
United States, Donald J. Trump. I mean, when you read that,
(07:38):
were you surprised or did you think, well, you know,
I could probably see this coming.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I was actually really surprised because I you know, I
certainly most of my family doesn't agree with what I did.
And you know, my parents were good because they understood
where I was coming from, and they were never like
hardcore MAGA people anyway. And you know my brother and sister.
But I knew a lot of the extended family was upset,
but I never would have expected that they could do
(08:05):
anything like that. I mean, you think about the fact
that you know, Donald Trump, I think even said once
that he's never asked for forgiveness, He's never had to
ask for forgiveness, and yet they're convinced he's a Christian
putting out the Plan of Salvation, which, by the way,
forgiveness is the very first thing in the Plan of Salvation,
and it just so Yeah, I was blown away. And
(08:25):
it goes to show what I call the maga brainworms
that exist and how they have infected these members of
my family.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It was incredible when you read that, Mary, I mean,
I was curious this position that Donald Trump is such
a man of faith. Mary, when you heard that, I
wondered what went through your mind.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, I actually left and Adam, I wasn't laughing at
the content of the letter because it's I can well
actually sorry, I kind of imagine how hurtful it was,
whether you were close with these people or not through
your family, and they went public with it, and it
was quite graceful and un Christian, if I could use
that term. But it just shows the level of delusion
(09:07):
that's operative on the far right right now, which I'm
sorry to say, seems to be almost the entirety of
the Republican Party, because we just saw what happened in
the House of Representatives a couple of weeks ago with
the speakership vote. But to claim that Donald Trump, of
all people is and I'm sure they would call him
(09:29):
an imperfect vessel, because that's just the shortcut for somebody.
We don't agree with it all, but he's going to
ram through what we want. Is just so wrong on
every level. I have never and I just want to
step back a second and say, I don't care what
Donald believes or doesn't believe. It should be irrelevant. This
is the United States of America. However, the cynicism of
(09:52):
using other people's faith in the way that he does
when he himself believes nothing. There is nobody, no entity
more important in Donald Trump's universe than he is to himself.
So I just want to be clear about what they
were acted. Was it the stance you took after this
alleged man of God tried to overturn his own government?
(10:14):
Is that what they objected to? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I think this came in slightly after I voted to
impeach and yeah, and that was that was their government.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It was January eighth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
What's it. Yeah, Yeah, So I don't even think that
by that point, I don't think i'd even voted to
impeach him. Then that was just me speaking out, you know,
against it, and of course I was. I was active
before January sixth and calling that stuff out. But again
it's it's Christian nationalism first off, and that has no
place in government. But Christianity has been replaced by Christian nationalism.
(10:48):
And I say, it's no different. That is the kind
of thing that if you were in Afghanistan and there
was somebody, you know, fighting against the Taliban, would receive
from a Taliban supporting family, and there's no difference in that.
And it's just you know it too. People ask me like,
how does it make you feel? I'm like, over the
(11:09):
last ten months, I've had to take inventory with the
impact that this stuff has had, and it's cumulatively had
an effect. It's just when you're in the middle of combat,
you don't have PTSD detil after. But I look at
it and I'm just like, how miserable their life must
be to be living with that kind of anger and hate.
And I have no desire, I guess I for my sake,
(11:31):
I forgive them, but I have no desire to have
any kind of a you know, a come to like,
let's let's come to terms party. They can never talk
to me again, as far as I care.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Your co Pilot in a Rock also sent you a
text that said I'm ashamed to have ever served with you.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's if you think about
the bonds of war. That's like, that's deeper than family.
I mean, And for him to send that, and I
just remember, I think I replied to him, and I
said something to the extent of like, how is it
that you woke up this morning and you were so
eaten up by this anger against me that you would
send me this text message? And like, do you think
(12:09):
that somehow I would have gotten it and been like, oh,
you're right, I repent. No, it would just make me mad.
But you had to feel like it made you feel
better to send it. And so I blocked him and
never talked to him again.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I was going to ask what happened, And Mary, I'm curious,
just before we move on to really other aspects of
the book, have you ever gotten a letter like that?
Have you been criticized either publicly or privately by members
of the Trump family, and can you tell us about
that experience?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It actually wasn't very dramatic. In some ways, there are Trumps.
So they sued me, and they continued to sue me.
But like our love language, uh is lawsuits. But you know,
we had been estranged for a really long time because
I got disinherited. As you know, it's ours to show
(13:00):
up to Christmas after that has happened, and it was
certainly after both of my grandparents had died. There was
sort of no need. But I did try tomend fences
with my aunt mary Anne, which is why I showed
up at the White House in April of twenty seventeen.
But I didn't really have any contact with them, and
as you can imagine, these aren't people with whom one
(13:21):
has deep emotional bonds, which is why, Adam, I just
want to say really quickly, I felt such pain about
your co pilot because I would find that much more wounding,
yeah than if my whatever my family would have to
say about me. So no, my family quite honestly has
been the leadst of my worries over the last few years.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Let's talk a little, Adam about your childhood, because it
sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing in every sense
of the word. Can you describe what it was like
to be Adam Kinzinger as a little boy?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's great you know, looking back on it,
you know, I know I live in Texas, and uh
so I kind of like missed the Midwest. When you leave,
you kind of realize what you had. And you know,
Midwest it's great people. I was raised with a great
mom and dad, great brother and sister, right like your
middle middle class family. My dad ran a homeless shelter
and my mom's a public school teacher. And you know,
(14:20):
also it was that life. We we were initially in
a pretty strict religious church, religious background, which I could
talk more about, but yeah, I would say, you know,
just just a great childhood. At six years old, I
started to taking interest in politics, which is weird.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And how did that happen?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
You know, because the press or something. No, it was
it was the eighties and a guy was running for mayor,
John Lewis of Jacksonville, Florida. We lived there for a
few years, and uh he had hot painkyard science because
it was the eighties and the hot pink was a thing,
and I was just kind of obsessed with that fanfare
of it. But that led to it as I got
(14:58):
older and could understand more or understanding what politics was,
and it just was like, I don't know, service in
politics was always just something I was interested in. But
I went through a very rebellious period in high school
and college. Failed out of college because I got too
involved in my fraternity. I got a point eight in
school one semester, which is you have to really try
to get a point oh eight, by the way it
(15:19):
is it is. And that allowed me then to kind
of really frankly get kicked out of college and spend
some time taking inventory. And then I got accepted back
and did well. But yeah, it was it was an
interesting time. But yeah, great childhood and I think has
led to a lot of the you know, as the
church would always say, it's like, do the right thing,
it's just most of them actually didn't. But it stuck
(15:40):
with me to do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
A public school teacher is a mom and a father
who I know was a businessman and then ultimately ran
a homeless shelter. It seems like that would be the
makings of a democrat. I'm not a Republican. So was
it your religious upbringing that that sort of imbued more
conservative values?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I guess so it's you know, my parents were Republicans
as well, and I actually I would say I would
put my dad in the line of like the compassionate
conservatism before it became uncool to say. And you know,
it's this idea that we do care about the down
and out and the best thing to do is to
help them have a hand up and to make their
life better. And so I think it was a what
(16:21):
I would actually consider actual conservatism and not this like
angry cut mean, you know division. It would be like
a real compassion for people. And so I think that's
where a lot of it came from. But certainly the religion,
the religious background. I mean, you couldn't be a Democrat
and be an independent fundamental Baptist. I mean, you'd be
kicked out of the church.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Tell us about your church. I don't really know much
about fundamental Baptists.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's it was so it's the last type
of church that still does the no drinking, no dancing,
no smoking, no movies, no rock music. Right, Oh, like footloose,
We like it's exactly, it's Footloose, That's who it is.
And uh so that was me and that lasted for
I don't know, i'd say that went until probably college.
(17:05):
I never followed a lot of those I was drinking
pretty young, unfortunately, and I think that was part of
a rebellious streak, but yeah, it was just it's one
of those where you kind of are taught everything is
black and white. You see this, you see this in
my relative's letter. Frankly, that's what you're seeing. But that
also helped me when I started to kind of challenge
(17:25):
what I believed and challenge the things I thought. It
actually helped me to open a lot more up in
my light. And I think it's probably a good reason
why I'm here and why I'm able to say, like,
the Republican Party is wrong and it doesn't believe in anything. Honestly,
I think that process of kind of leaving that church
I consider myself now just like Protestant non denominational, and
(17:46):
the process of leaving that church I think has helped
in a lot more ways than just that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
After this, Adam on what he got wrong, what he's learned,
and how more Republicans can have a little more self reflection.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter
(18:14):
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now
more of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger and my plus
one Mary Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Mary.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
One thing I was struck by is Adam's very honest
about his own sort of flaws and failings and his
own quite frankly big ego. And it seems like that
ego was one of the things that motivated you to
run for office after serving in a rock. Can you
explain that.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, So listen, if somebody, if a politician tells you
they don't have an ego, they're lying or they're not
going to win. I mean, that's just a fact. And
because you have to. You know, when I ran for Congress,
I basically said to seven hundred thousand people that have
all of you, I'm the best. You gotta believe it.
And so, you know, I was in Iraq and I remember,
you know, coming back from that and just thinking, you know,
(19:07):
I defended the country on the outside, I want to
defend it now on the inside thirty two or thirty yeah,
thirty two years old, thinking that you know, people would
want to elect me and put me in Congress. They
ultimately did. And uh, but you you when you start
tasting fame. And by the way, politics is the new Hollywood,
(19:27):
because now you can actually become famous. You can guarantee
you'll become famous, and you can do it easier than
you can on Hollywood. All you got to do is
tweet something astronomically crazy and the world will know your name.
And so when I started to get a taste for
that fame. When I was running, I was only the
second post nine to eleven veteran to get into Congress.
You know, I was young. A lot of attention and
that becomes addictive, and you know, you start getting on
(19:50):
the national TV and people will text you and you're like,
oh my gosh, I'm known. Somebody saw me the airport. Yeah,
I'm the man. Somebody saw me in the important they
knew who I was, you know, and uh, but it's
a reality that Look, I think Donald Trump is that
he's addicted to the fame and the attention as well.
But yeah, ego plays a lot. Now, I'll just say
also quickly on that. The one thing that I think
(20:13):
stuck with me from the war. From that, and as
part of the reason that you know I took the
stand I did, is I remember thinking, okay, if I'm
going to send young people to die for the country,
which I will, you know, as a member of Congress.
And I'm hawkish too. So if I'm going to send
people to die for this country, I have to be
willing to sacrifice this job for the country, because how
(20:37):
can I ask an eighteen year old to give up
their life, which is the obviously ultimate sacrifice, if I'm
not willing to give up a one hundred and seventy
four thousand dollars a year job with a powerful title.
And that stuck with me. You know, I thought it
would be like maybe some vote on social security reform
or some I didn't think it would be actually defending democracy.
(20:57):
But that stuck with me.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Is that what you think mere attracted your uncle to
all of this? I mean, he was already famous, he
was already you know, nationally known. Was this just fame
on steroids for him? You think?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
You know, I think I differ with with some people
about this.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I don't think that Donald intended to run with any
level of seriousness. Yes, he'd run before, and it was
always branding. And he always knew because this is one
of his few legitimate skills. He always knew where the
line was and when to pull back, because he could
never be seen to be losing, right, he had to
(21:38):
take control of the narrative and then suddenly, and I
think part of the reason he probably didn't take it
seriously is because like me and the rest of my
family were New Yorkers, and everybody in New York knows
that he's a total loser. So he saw how the
rest of the country or large large pieces of the
(21:59):
rest of the country thought about him, which was very different.
And he starts winning, and he starts winning primaries, and
he starts getting more support and worse. And I think
this is one of the reasons we're here now, because
he's taught this lesson to many in the Republican Party.
He started pushing the envelope and realizing he could get
away with anything. When he realized that he was getting
(22:21):
traction and could get the nomination, I think that it
was about winning, not about being the person with the
power and doing the job. He wanted the person with
the power to wield it and get money, because it's
always about money. So, Adam, I'm curious if that's been
your experience with what seems to be this incredibly swift
(22:42):
transformation of the party that nobody on that side of
the aisle feels like they need to play by any
rules anymore, and they keep getting rewarded for it.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, rules are for suckers. And you know, if you
think about what you said about Trump, I think is
one hundred percent right, because it's probably got to be
funny for you to if I just call him Trump
because you're like, I'm Trump too. But anyway, Donald's.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Works too because he hates being called Donald by his
support in it?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Does he really yes, oh yes, okay, perfect, and I'll
call Donald but he I think he just wanted to run,
to be crazy and you know, to brand, like you said,
and he accidentally got in front of a wave YEP,
which was GOP wanted to break the system. And by
the way, conversely, I think that the contrary not yet,
but by twenty twenty eight is actually ready for a
(23:30):
healer to come along, and they won't know it until
that healer basically runs and wins, because you always see
that in hindsight. But yeah, I think, Look, they used
to be people that went into Congress, went in for
the purpose of passing legislation, right of actually achieving things.
You don't see that anymore because passing legislation. If I
would run and say all the great things I did
(23:50):
for my district, that didn't matter anymore. What mattered was
how often I was on Fox News, how angry I was,
how much I took on the Democrats. And because it's
because the new currency is not accomplishments. The new currency
is fame and anger. And so yes, if you play
by the rules, and if you say, like I talk
about fire, right, and it's one of the things I
(24:11):
admit is we all played with fire a little bit.
And some of that is the anger, the fear, the division,
and every leader can do it, but you're supposed to
like keep that fire contained and then put it out
at certain times. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
But you did fall for that initially. Yeah, didn't you
talk about how you made a lot of mistakes and
you kind of went down that road before you self corrected. Yeah,
but you were one of the very few people who
self corrected.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah. And it's because I mean, look, it's I didn't
play with the fire as much as other people did
because I always still saw, like, okay, I'm going to
be judged by history here, right, And that was important
to me, but I did play with it. And a
huge problem with Citizens United the fundraising right, we're becoming
an oligarchy in this country. Let's just be clear about that.
(24:58):
And so everybody, now, if you're a regular person that
wants to run for Congress, you've got to raise a
ton of money. You can't raise money on optimism. I can't, honestly,
if I send out an email that says I want
to fix the road next door, or I want to
bring the country together, you're not going to raise money.
You will raise money if you say that Nancy Pelosi
wants to kill your family. Because listen, no matter how
(25:21):
much money you make or don't make, if I convince
you that I'm the only thing that can stand between
you and literally your family's death, which a lot of
people believe, you'll give me anything, including your social Security check.
And so that's what's happened. People have just gone off
the rails because now it's a dopamine addiction. Right, you
do a drug, you got to do more of the
drug the next time and the next time, and that
(25:41):
drug right now is fear and anger for people.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Why do you think so few people like you in
the Republican Party. Adam said, no, mos was it the dopamine?
Was it the addiction to power? Was it saying that,
you know, I've got a dance with the one who
brought me or whatever it is. I mean, I know
you talk about Lindsey Graham in the book. I know
(26:06):
you talk about Ted Cruz in the book. And you know,
I just interviewed the author, McKay Coppins of a book
about Mitt Romney, and I feel like there's so many
parallels between you and Mitt Romney. Did you two ever
talk about this?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
No, we actually text on occasion, but not really about this.
It just kind of like real quick text. He's not
a big Texter, but I am. And but I yeah.
I mean I think it's that it's like everybody in politics,
and I'm not saying this discouraged any excuse, but everybody
in politics you got to play with compromise a little bit, right,
and you know you're kind of figuring this out, and
(26:42):
what happens and what happened with Donald is everybody started
to say, Okay, well he's the president. I'll accept this,
and I'll do that. And eventually when you turn if
you're going to turn against him, you have to accept
the fact that you did things to enable him because
by sheer survival, still you're still there. And it's like
(27:03):
the sunken cost thing. So in Vietnam, you know we
lost when we lost ten thousand men, how come we
didn't leave Vietnam? Well, because we already lost ten thousand men,
how can we leave now? Right? So we stayed till
we lost fifty thousand. Well, that's the problem is once
you and Kevin McCarthy's a great example this, once you
start giving away a piece of your soul, you eventually
(27:23):
have to say the last seven years I've been actually
a huge sellout to then turn and it's just much
easier to convince yourself that, Look, I can't make a difference.
I mean, look at Kinsinger and Cheney, they both got sniped.
Why would I put my head out? Well, it's true,
but when nobody puts their head up, ever, the ones
that do get sniped.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I just want to add something to that question, because
you talk about how you did not vote for Donald
in twenty sixteen, but you did vote for him twenty twenty,
which is fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I know I'm the only one in America that did that,
by the.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Way, but in the way you explained it, it makes perfect
sense because we're hearing now that a lot of senators
didn't vote to impeach him or convict him in the
Senate because they were afraid of retaliation. And I don't
think you use this phrase explicitly, but there's a certain
level of peer pressure as well, and knowing that with
somebody like Donald you're all in or you're all out,
(28:14):
there's no you can agree with him sometimes and disagree
with him. So I'm very curious though, why for more people,
January sixth wasn't the moment he lost the election, no
matter how much he wanted to lie about it, he
incited a violent insurrection against his own government, placing you,
(28:35):
your staff and the staff of everybody else in that building,
all of your colleagues at risk. People are calling to
hang Mike Pence. And two days later, three days later,
I don't remember what it was a very short period
of time.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I was gonna say, Mary, it was the moment for
a moment, right, it.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Was the final off round and the best and clearest one.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
What happened, Well, look, so I'll say you know, on
voting the second time for him. I had experienced four
years of everybody being like, you never voted for Trump,
you know, you're a pos and all this, and I
just basically.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Who was saying that your constituents are your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah, yeah, the constituents. The colleagues didn't care, but and
so you do with Then I was just finally like, okay,
I'm not gonna lie. So I'm like, I'll vote for him.
I didn't do it enthusiastically, but I did it so
I didn't have to deal with what I just dealt
with for four years. By the way, that's a macrocosm
of exactly why Mike Johnson just won the speakership because
there were twenty five Republicans that said, note to Jim Jordan,
(29:36):
which is great, by the way, but they just couldn't
do it a second time, right, and so they're like fine,
and they capitulated on that one. But the January sixth
it was weird because in the conference, So when I
refer to the conference, just imagine all these Republican congressmen
and women meeting. Okay, So in the conference, it was
basically dead silent after January sixth, And to give you
(29:56):
an example, I was actually considering doing a vote of
no confidence against Kevin McCarthy for allowing this to happen,
and I actually thought that I might have been able
to win it. So that gives you an idea of
where the conference was. Okay, three weeks later, so everybody's
kind of sitting there quiet. We don't know what's going
to happen. We're waiting for direction and leadership to say, okay,
it's time to move on. Right, there's still the crazy
(30:18):
Trump faction, but they were pretty small and quiet at
this point. They were I mean, they were loud, but
they were small. Kevin McCarthy goes to mar A Lago,
gets this picture taken with Donald Trump, and the world
turns on a dime. And that is when he took
the off ramp we had, and he drove right past
the off ramp onto the interstate and floored it. And
there have been one hundred but jillion different off ramps
we could have taken, but that was the biggest one.
(30:40):
And Kevin made the decision because he wanted to be
Speaker of the House. He knew he needed to raise money.
He knew that if he took on Donald Trump, that
he would be denied enough to become speaker, and so
he decided to fully embrace Trump because once he did that,
quote unquote, he knew he could bring the rest of
everybody else along. It was a selfish decision by Kevin
(31:02):
McCarthy that then led to all these limmings in the
Republican Congress following because if Kevin's going with him, we
can't not.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And did Lindsey Graham. There were a lot of people
who expressed their disgust for that's tiny window of time.
And then you're right, everything turned on a dime. And
is that why you think so poorly of Kevin McCarthy.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, So I started to dislike Kevin prior to the
election because I noticed that he was defending Donald Trump
more than he would defend his people. So, you know,
if I said something against Donald and I got attacked
by him because I'd say that a lot. Even during
his presidency, Kevin wouldn't defend me. He would defend the
former president. And I'm like, well, your job as the
(31:49):
minority leader is to defend your people. So that's when
that fallout started. And then I also have no respect
for people that don't truly have a moral core. You
can make compromise for sure, and that's okay to some extent,
but when it comes to actual, like oath type things,
I lose all respect for you. Look, and this is
maybe a controversial way to say it, I don't care.
(32:11):
I don't take an oath to the people I represent. Frankly,
the people I represent are secondary. The only thing I
take an oath to is the Constitution of the United States.
And if seven hundred thousand people I represent all want
me to violate my oath, I took an oath not
to them, to the Constitution, and Kevin McCarthy took that
exact same oath and instead he made a decision for
(32:34):
himself that would change the trajectory of this country. Look,
I can say there can be any issue. We disagree
on any issue, but we can work through that as
long as we agree that the election system is sound. Okay.
It's why you've even come around on the issue of
voting rights, because I'm like, you know what Republicans are
trying to steal elections. I used to like vote against
some of the things because I'm like, yeah, no, that's
(32:55):
a little Hyperbolieve. There's not going to be a stolen election. Now,
I'm like, I'm not in Congress anymore or so it's
easy to say it, but I would vote for voting
rights now because I'm like, yeah, actually, Republicans are trying
to disenfranchise. But once you take away the faith in
the election system, you cannot govern yourself. Like democracy goes
out the window. And that's what Donald Trump did by
(33:15):
saying the election was stolen. He convinced half the country
that the election system doesn't work. And by definition, democracy
can't work if you don't have a system that doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
After the break the January six hearings, Adam Kinziger on
what they didn't do and what they did do. Now
more of my conversation with Adam Kinziger and Mary Trump.
(33:51):
What was it like overseeing those January six hearings? I
watched most of them. I had a friend who helped
produce them, and I thought they were so well done
and so clearly made the case for what had happened,
and yet they didn't move the needle. And I know
you right about this, Adam, but share with our listeners
(34:11):
why you think that was the case.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Well, I first of want to say it didn't move
the needle in the GOP. But I think there is
no way. Oh I don't just think this, I know this.
The Department of Justice would not have a case against
Donald Trump right now without the January sixth Committee. So
it was historic in that way. I know that my
son Christian, when he goes to school and learns about
this time period, he's not going to hear about the
(34:36):
FBI doing this or Antifa. He's going to hear the
truth because we got to the bottom of that. So yes,
it didn't change people's minds at the moment because they
are so vested in being right that they can't admit right.
But their kids are never going to believe the conspiracy theories,
and I think within ten years their parents are going
to pretend like they never believed it in the first place.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I think it made a huge difference for the reasons
you say, for the education it gave us, and absolutely
for what it led the DOJ to do, the evidence
that was collected. One of the most brilliant things about
it too is that almost what ninety eight percent of
the people testifying were Republicans, which was huge. I think
it motivated voters. I think you don't have what happened
(35:20):
in twenty twenty two without the January sixth hearing. And
it doesn't mean that it convinced Republicans. It means that
it motivated the rest of us who were so moved
and devastated and proud of what your committee did.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, thank you, And I'm going to tell you. So
everybody knows the details of what we did, but I'll
share you with you a little insight and I talk
about it a little bit in the book, which is
just it was like God himself put the right people
in that committee because each of us had like a
unique skill set that we needed for that moment. Liz
(35:57):
Cheney is a dogged like she's a dog on a bone.
She's not gonna let go, and she is like was
obsessed with this the whole time the rest of us
had families. She just like lived in the vault learning
this information and she could put it together because she's
a lawyer and a good scholar on that. You know.
Benny Thompson like, it is very rare to find somebody,
particularly a chairman of a committee, who was willing to
(36:19):
let other people get the spotlight, and he did that
with Liz. We needed that we needed his calm leadership.
You know, Jamie Reskin annoys everybody because they'll tell you
how much he knows, but he knows a ton, right,
so he brings that. You know, I was paying attention
to the right wing conspiracy theories, so I was able
to come in and share, like, we have to address
the Ray Epps issue. If you don't know the REEPS issue,
(36:41):
then count yourself blessed. But if you're listening to Fox
News or something, they all know Ray Epps. And so
everybody brought these unique things. It was a moment that
has never happened before. It will never happen again, unfortunately,
but it was such a historic moment and we all
got along and a really quick funny quip. Immediately determined
(37:01):
to dub Adam shiff as Adam Senior, and I dubbed
myself Adam Junior because I wanted to make the age joke,
and it stuck the whole time in the committee.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I'm sure. I'm sure he really appreciated that.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
He tried to fight back against it a couple of
times and then he just went with it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So Kevin McCarthy obviously is pushed out. Jim Jordan doesn't
get it. It's just sort of this clown car of
potential speakers until finally Mike Johnson gets it, and he's
an election denier.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, and he's worse.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
But yeah, I think you call him an insurrectionist in
a suit. Maybe. Is that something that you said, Adam
or Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I said, he's Jim Jordan with a jacket. And then
I told somebody who said publicly what I said, which
is he's Jim Jordan and drag.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You said he was a well dressed insurrectionist.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He So look every if
you look back at the arguments being made to not
certify the election by any member of Congress, they all
cited Mike Johnson, who was a constitutional quote unquote, you
know lawyer, and they cite his arguments. He's the one
that obviously initiated the Amicas brief so members of Congress
(38:14):
could sign on to the Texas lawsuit, which is the
first thing, the first attempt to throw out these legitimate
votes cast by place like Michigan. And his scary thing
is he speaks well, he looks good, he looks like
a very polished politician, and he is the chief insurrectionist
of the House. He doesn't get the credit that Jim
Jordan does because Jim Jordan was louder. But Mike Johnson
(38:38):
is the reason that some of these lawsuits and stuff
went forward. So yeah, I'm extremely worried that he's there.
I mean, it's just not good.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
What does that portend for the House and what will
it mean in general for legislation.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Well, I think first off, it means the House isn't
going to do much. I think, you know, we've got
to get through this government shutdown that's coming up, which
I think the government will shut down, but I don't
know how long. Inevitably it has to end. But I
worry about what it means for aid for Israel and Ukraine,
particularly Ukraine. I think they'll get aid for Israel regardless,
but Ukraine to me is really the fight of our
(39:13):
generation right now. Now. Mike is as indicated that you know,
he's open to putting aid on the floor. That's good,
I'll give him that, but he's also said like maybe
it's months away, and the fact that he's going to
pay for the Israel aid of ten billion by cutting
the IRS. It'll be interesting to see how he pays
for the one hundred billion or sixty billion in a
(39:34):
to Ukraine. And by the way, just a real quick point,
most people don't realize when you talk about like sixty
billion to Ukraine, it's not like taxpayer money. A little
bit of that is a lot of it is old
equipment that we were going to destroy, like the a
tackms that we were getting ready to destroy that are
being replaced anyway we send to Ukraine and we have
(39:56):
to put a price tag on it. We have to
value that. That's what a lot of that money is.
Cluster munitions, for instance, we gave Ukraine. In fact, they're
very effective. I know they're controversial, but they're very effective
for Ukraine's war. Those were all set to be destroyed
because we were going to get rid of cluster munitions.
But we have to put a value on that. That's
just a quick aside that I think people I don't
know too much on that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Why aren't more people taking the road that you and
Liz Cheney. Maybe the simple answer is it's just power.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I guess when you started to see anybody that spoke
out against Donald being defeated getting death threats. It only
takes a number of those for people to be like,
I'm not going to put my head up right, there's
a survival thing there. Yeah, Now what you see is
a lot of people that don't run again. That includes me.
And by the way, quick aside, I probably wouldn't have
run again anyway, because I had been in the House
(40:46):
twelve years. That's a long time. But people don't run
again because they're like, I'm just done dealing with it,
and I understand it. But in terms of me, you know, look,
I still consider myself a Republican for only one reason,
because I refuse to let them win. And I also
know that being a Republican gives me a unique ability
to go after Republicans, right because if I attack a Democrat,
(41:08):
everybody's be like, he's a Republican attacking democrat. If Democrats
attack Republicans like ma, that's just If you're a Republican
attacking Republicans, people pay attention. And I haven't changed, you know,
I've moderated on a lot of issues, but that's just
with age. And so I voted Democratic in twenty twenty two.
I'll vote Democratic in twenty twenty four because I think
there's only one issue on the ballot, and it's do
(41:29):
you believe in democracy or not because all the other
stuff we can decide on later, exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And that's why I want to know a little bit
more about where you're doing, because you are one of
the very few people who still identifies as a Republican,
not a former Republican, not a newly minted independent, who
understands that in a deep way, just as in twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two, in twenty twenty four, we
are voting for democracy or we're voting for autocracy. And
(41:55):
until we get to the point where democracy is not
just saved one more time, but it's actually strong, we're
never going to be able to get to the point
where you and I can start disagreeing about policy again.
So how did you come up with this plan of
yours to just only focus on electing pro democracy candidates?
(42:17):
And how's it going? Because I think this is probably
the most important work we could be doing right now.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Yeah, it's great, and thanks for your work on it too.
And I so my organization is Country First. It's Country one,
the number one st dot com. And look, in twenty twelve,
I had a competitive member against member primary and because
I got redistricted and with another Republican, and I actually
got a lot of union support. I had union support
in Illinois, and one of the things I was able
(42:45):
to do was get like union Democrats to pull a
Republican ballot and vote for me. And I won. And
so I've been taking that now to the streets, so
to speak. So a couple of things we're doing. We
have an acacemy that's teaching people how to run right,
how to actually be a candidate, because that's there's a
lot of questions on that from people. Republican or Democrat,
doesn't matter. You just put in the country first, that's
(43:06):
the only requirement. And secondarily the question is like, Okay,
if you live in a very Republican district, for instance,
and you're represented by an insurrectionist and you're a Democrat,
you know, yeah, you can vote democratic in the general election.
They're not going to win. So pull a Republican ballot
if your state allows it, and actually vote for a
(43:27):
better Republican even if you don't like that person, a
pro democracy Republican. That's how we beat Madison Cawthorne in
North Carolina. We had five thousand Democrats that pulled a
Republican ballot and he lost by thirty five hundred votes.
So that's the kind of action we're trying to do.
And you know, I'd love to see frankly, things like
rat choice voting and some and real campaign finance reform.
(43:47):
That's a kind of Tier two targets because that's going
to take a while.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I know Andrew Yang and Christy Todd Whitman are working
on that. Actually, yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Very important, and so I think those are some changes
we can make. But look, it took us deck to
get to this moment. It's going to take us a
while to get out of this moment. But we just
have to have patience.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I want to pick up on that because you know,
you talked about Adam in twenty twenty eight having sort
of a healer come. I have two questions about that. One,
is the Republican Party salvageable? Could it be morphed into
a more reasonable, policy oriented Dare I say moderate, sensible,
(44:26):
willing to compromise party? And if so, who are some
of the leaders who are up and coming who can
replace what's come to be known as the gerontocracy?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Right?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, where do you see happening in the future with
all of this.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Well, so I see twenty twenty eight as going to
be a pretty good year for this country because it's
going to be all new candidates on both sides, and
I think there's'd be a lot of new energy. I
hope it's not the vek Ramaswami types. I hope it's
just people with good ideas. And so the question of
who is going to be the upcoming leader, I don't know,
because I don't know if they exist in the political
sphere right now.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Is there anybody out there who impresses you ad him?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
No, honestly, I mean not in the GOP because I now,
you know, look, I like her to an extent, but
she's she's been justifying, you know, Donald Trump, saying it's
a two tier justice system. Right. It's like, you can't,
on the one hand, be this awesome truth teller and
then say that Donald Trump is a victim of a
witch hunp Look at Tim Scott. I'm friends with Tim Scott,
(45:28):
but that guy just basically defended Trump and said Biden
has blood on his hands, for God's sakes, because of Israel. Like, so,
I don't know who those people are I do think
the Republican Party is salvageable. It will have to be
because we have two parties in this country, and naturally
power flows to where you can get fifty percent of
the people. If the people reject the GOP and reject
(45:50):
the extremism in the GOP, it will naturally have to
self correct, and it will do that. I do think
it's a ways off, though I don't think that's going
to happen anytime soon, but it could be accelerated in
twenty twenty eight if there's a good candidate that I
say this, we need a If you're a Republican, your
mentor is Ronald Reagan. If you're a Democrat, AT's Obama.
It's that we need that kind of a person, I
(46:12):
think to come along and bring the country together.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Could it be you?
Speaker 3 (46:16):
You know, look, I'd be open to it. I never
thought i'd ever get back into politics. But I also
am like looking at this like the itches coming back
a little bit. I'm careful to say it because I
don't want people to think that what I'm doing now
isn't anything like because of a plan to run for president,
because it's not. But I wouldn't turn it down, it'd
be something I'd certainly be open at looking at.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
But there is, you know, as you just said, there's
a leadership vacuum there, and we need people who represent
people who aren't represented by the Democratic Party or who
views are represented by Democratic Party. Again. The Democratic Party
is the only major political party currently that is per
Democracy Party, and we need the Republican Party to be
(46:54):
that again. And I think that's that's why what you
and Liz Cheney did as an Americans, as people who,
as you said, made a nose to the Constitution, not
to one man, not to your conciituents, have sort of
paved the way. So it's going to be I think
it's going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens
in twenty twenty eight, But we have to survive twenty
(47:15):
twenty four first, and that's going to be That's going
to be the trick.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
That's right. I don't want to give people hope that
twenty twenty four is going to get better. It's going
to be really bad. But the hope does come after that.
And I think I think it's going to be an
American century. I mean, I really do. I think if
you just look at all the metrics are people everything,
It's going to be great, But we go through these
times in history. You look at the twenties and there
are two million Kukluks. I'm sitting in Chicago right now.
(47:39):
There are two millillion Ku Klux Klan members within one
state of Chicago all the way around in nineteen twenties. Right.
We came back from that, We'll come back.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
I thought it was so interesting, Adam, what you said
about the Democratic Party and about the potential of it
becoming fractured over Israel, and you were saying, as someone
from a part that has really kind of imploded, you
were issuing a bit of a warning to Democrats. And
the other thing I wanted to say, while we're on
the topic of Democrats, yes they may be pro democracy,
(48:11):
but they certainly are not reaching a lot of these disenchanted, disenfranchised,
blue collar voters that make up the bulk of Trump support.
And I'm curious if you could speak to both of
those issues.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Well, let me first off say, like, I get concerned
with the Democrats because when I tell them this thing,
they get offended and get mad at me. And I'm like, look,
if you think I'm just throwing a spiritu to hurt you.
I'm not I'm warning you. And if you don't want
to believe it, this is exactly the kind of warnings
that were coming from people like Michael Moore in twenty
sixteen when he predicted Donald Trump would win and everybody
(48:49):
laughed at his face, including me. By the way, so yes,
on Israel, I remember five years ago a guy named
Dana Roorbacher who was the old me pro Russian Republican
in the House of Representatives, and I would attack him
and attack him in the committee. I got along with him,
but I would attack him on these issues, and everybody
told me, stop attacking Dana. It's just Dana. Right now,
(49:12):
about half of the party is pro Russia. Okay, it grows,
and so that's just a warning to people. And then
what was the other issue?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
I think the other question I had is, you know,
you talk in your book about sort of how coastal
elites and the Democratic Party and this is not a
new thing either, but how they dismiss and disrespect people
in the middle of the country and the flyover states,
and it's it really is true that there, for whatever reason,
(49:43):
the Democratic Party has become a party of elite, college educated,
wealthy people.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's actually kind of switched with
the GOP on that by the way, right, you know,
the voters in my district when I started it, when
I started serving, was a swing district. It became a
very Republican district and there wasn't a lot of migration
in and out of the district. People switched because they
felt left behind by the Democrats. And you know, look,
I'm sitting in Chicago right now. Can't tell you in
(50:12):
the last two days the number of hardcore Democrats I've
spoken to here that are upset about the crime in
the city. And now you have this huge migration issue
because you know, there's a lot of like ten cities
that are upset about it, and that's an issue that
Democrats can talk about the compassion. I'm actually very compassionate
to immigrants. I'm a moderate on immigration reform. But you've
(50:33):
got to listen when you hear those echoes of concern,
listen to them and deal with them, because otherwise people
will feel unheard like they did in the Midwest. And
it's why a place like Wisconsin that never should have
voted Republican is voting Republican. So it's another again, another warning.
When you hear people being upset about something, don't just
(50:54):
tell them they're wrong. Actually, maybe find out if there's
something to it.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Pay attention.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Well, the book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty
in Our Divided Country. Adam, it's a pleasure talking to
you and Mary. This was so fun.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
This was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Well thanks for having you guys.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, really fun talking to you. Thanks, Adam, and good
luck with the book. And if you announce anything, do
it with Mary and me. Okay I will, Oh sure,
you take care.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Mary.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
That was really fun. Did you enjoy that conversation?
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Oh my, that was incredible. Well, you're like the master,
so it's a sort of like, yes, it was great
talking to Adam, but just watching you work is just
like so cool for me.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Oh well, listen right back at you. I'm a big
fan and you're doing obviously a podcast, and I know
you have a newsletter too.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Yeah. The Good in Us is my newsletter, which is
on substack, and that's sort of where I'm trying to
create a community and keep people positive in these very
dark times because it does feel like the times are
pretty dark and kind of getting darker, and we need
to keep people engaged for another year. It's only twelve months, Skati.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
That just is It's so crazy, isn't it. And we
need to keep them engaged period. I think the number
of people in this country who don't vote is such
a travesty and I wish they would make it a
national holiday, give everyone off, you know, the day off
from work and almost. I mean, I think they have
mandatory voting in some countries. I think in Australia, I
(52:35):
think it's an obligation. I think it's a duty, you know.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's what we need to write. We
need a bill of responsibilities.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Actually, we need a lot of stuff. Mary Trump, well,
thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.
And what's your substack again so people can sign up
for it.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
It's called the Good in Us, The Good in Us,
The Good in Us. I'm trying to be positive positive yep.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Or you could just.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Google my name and subseach and you would get there
and I will be keeping everybody posted about when the
Mary Trump Show re emerges with my nerdive engers and yeah,
because we've got to hit the ground running.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
A lot to do, and you've already written two books,
right Mary.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, and I'm actually finishing my third, which is coming
out in July, so I'll have to keep you posted
about that as well.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Has it been satisfying to find your voice this way?
I mean, I'm sure it's been very agonizing and upsetting,
because the reason you have found your voice is gosh,
I don't even know how to describe it, you know,
disillusionment with the family member. But do you feel like
you're putting important stuff out in the world.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
I do.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Actually, I very much regret the fact that Donald is
still a force in American politics. I think that's dangerous
and it says a lot nothing good about where we
are as a country. But I feel enormously grateful that
I've had the opportunity to join the resistance and the
(54:09):
fight for democracy because, uh, who knew that we would
be here, or that I would be here. So it's
been a wild ride. I do look forward to focusing
on other things at some point, I.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Think all of us do.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Thanks Mary so much.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Thank you Katie. This is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six oh nine five point two five to five five,
or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I
would love to hear from you. Next Question is a
(54:57):
production of iHeartMedia and Katie Correct Media. The executive producers
are Me, Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer
is Ryan Martx, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and
Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more
information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter,
(55:20):
wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next Question.
Welcome to this episode, every one of Katie plus one.
I have a special guest today who is going to
join me in interviewing Adam Kinsinger, and it is none
other than Ms. Mary Trump.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi Mary, Hey Katie, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with
you because you and Adam have a lot in common
in some ways, don't you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It's very surprising because as people can probably imagine, politically,
we probably have very little in common. But we've both
been through some experiences that have given us a chance
to see what it's like on the outside. And I'm
really looking forward to hearing what he has to say
(01:01):
about the main event, which is actually when you and I.
I think it might have been the first or second
time you and I.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Spoke after January sixth.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
January sixth, twenty twenty one, but also family history, his
experiences with his family disinheriting him essentially because of his
political stance, and he has emerged as a fascinating figure
in American politics and as somebody who has had the
(01:30):
courage of his convictions. And I also am really appreciative
of his decision to stay in the fight, which is
also something hopefully we'll get into definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, let's welcome Adam Kinzinger to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You ready, all set? I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Adam Kinzinger, Welcome to the podcast, and I'd like to
introduce you to Mary Trump. Mary meet Adam, Adam meet Mary.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hey, it's good to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It is a pleasure. How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
The pleasures all mine?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm great, Thanks and congratulations on the excellent book.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun to write it,
and I'll probably never write a book again in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I's going to say it was fun.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Okay, it was okay, and it's fun to have it written.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That is the best part having it done.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Adam, your new book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and
Liberty in our divided country. I can't think of a
book that is needed more than this right now, given
the state of affairs. But let me start by asking
you a pretty boring question, why why did you want
to write this book?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
You know, it's funny because somebody I don't even remember
who it was, told me, h, what is it? They said,
like writing a book is an inherently kind of like
arrogant feeling experience because I'm like and I struggle with that,
like who would want to read? Why would I put
any of my details? But the reason I ended up
doing it is I realized that my story tells the
broader story. It tells the story of what's happened to
(02:59):
the Republican Party. You know, I talk about the things
I got wrong and the things I should have seen,
but I think it's important to be able to like, yes, Okay,
here's my story, but here's throughout the whole thing, like
what happened in some of these like really important points,
because I think the only way to come back from
this moment we're in, this division is to recognize the
problem and recognize frankly, how we got here so we
(03:21):
can push back against it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, we thought that you and Mary would be
really interesting conversationalists because, as we said earlier when I
was introducing Mary to our listeners, you all actually have
a lot in common.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, first of all, I know the experience about the
letter you received from your family. Yes, and obviously the
circumstances were different, but I know what that feels like.
But also I just wanted to mention that my dad
was a pilot, and I didn't realize until I read
your book that you also were a pilot.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So yeah, my dad was in the National Guard and
he taught himself to fly when he was in college.
Well actually so his first plane was a Piper Cub
and then we had a Cherokee for a little bit.
But anyway, I thought, and he was of course a
professional pilot for twa in nineteen sixty four, so I
thought that was really cool. You used to fly your
(04:14):
your single edgend plane back and forth to work, which
is amazing. Everybody should be able to do that. And
of course your experience on January sixth, which I think
goes right to the heart of what a lot of
us experienced that several removes certainly, so, I honestly would
not have imagined that you and I would have that
(04:36):
much in common. And also I wanted to at the
very beginning, I'll thank you for your work in electing
pro democracy candidates. I have a pack that has exactly
the same mission. So it's it's fascinating and I've admired
your stance for a long time now, so it's always
nice when there's a little more context, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
And also I want to say thank you to you
because you've spoken out and you probably take an extra
level of vitriol that even I don't and I appreciate that.
And and yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned the
family letter. Here's the crazy thing. So I would go
see my folks probably once a month, right drive down.
They lived a couple hours south of me, and I
(05:19):
happened to show up on a day this letter showed
up to their house addressed to me. It's like I
was there when the mailman came, and I'm like, all right,
this is you know, in politics, sometimes get weird letters
that are certain that are since certified, and but I
saw the return names and I'm like, there's like, I
think ten or twelve of them on it. And I
was like, oh, well, that's family. This has got to
be wonderful. So I opened this up and the first
(05:42):
two words were oh my, and I remember thinking, oh,
they're going to say, oh my, oh proud we are
of what you've done, and it says what a disappointment
you are to us into God. And I remember just
kind of like kind of blinking and like, wait, did
it what? And I read this thing and I'm going
to just you can find the letter out there.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Just you know, this letter is unbelievable, Adam. I mean
when you read the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
It's stunning. It's stunning, It is.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So intense. Can I read a few lines? Yeah, I'm
just going to start from the beginning, Adam. Oh my,
what a disappointment you are to us and to God.
We were once so proud of your accomplishments. Instead, you
go against your Christian principles and join the devil's army,
Democrats and the fake news media. How do you call
(06:34):
yourself a Christian when you join the devil's army believing
an abortion. We thought you were smart enough to see
how the left is brainwashing so many so called good people,
including yourself and many other GOP members. You have even
fallen for their socialism ideals. So so sad. President Trump
(06:55):
is not perfect, but neither are you or any of
us for that matter. It's not for us to judge
or to be judge. But he is a Christian. If
God can forgive and use King David in the Bible,
he can do the same with President Trump. Just let
me read a couple of more lines for your information.
Many more family members feel the same way as we do.
(07:16):
They just didn't have the courage to sign our letter
or write their own letter, not us. We are thoroughly
disgusted with you, and by the way, we're calling for
your removal from office. I have received numerous calls covering
your actions and egregious behavior towards our President of the
United States, Donald J. Trump. I mean, when you read that,
(07:38):
were you surprised or did you think, well, you know,
I could probably see this coming.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I was actually really surprised because I you know, I
certainly most of my family doesn't agree with what I did.
And you know, my parents were good because they understood
where I was coming from, and they were never like
hardcore MAGA people anyway. And you know my brother and sister.
But I knew a lot of the extended family was upset,
but I never would have expected that they could do
(08:05):
anything like that. I mean, you think about the fact
that you know, Donald Trump, I think even said once
that he's never asked for forgiveness, He's never had to
ask for forgiveness, and yet they're convinced he's a Christian
putting out the Plan of Salvation, which, by the way,
forgiveness is the very first thing in the Plan of Salvation,
and it just so Yeah, I was blown away. And
(08:25):
it goes to show what I call the maga brainworms
that exist and how they have infected these members of
my family.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It was incredible when you read that, Mary, I mean,
I was curious this position that Donald Trump is such
a man of faith. Mary, when you heard that, I
wondered what went through your mind.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, I actually left and Adam, I wasn't laughing at
the content of the letter because it's I can well
actually sorry, I kind of imagine how hurtful it was,
whether you were close with these people or not through
your family, and they went public with it, and it
was quite graceful and un Christian, if I could use
that term. But it just shows the level of delusion
(09:07):
that's operative on the far right right now, which I'm
sorry to say, seems to be almost the entirety of
the Republican Party, because we just saw what happened in
the House of Representatives a couple of weeks ago with
the speakership vote. But to claim that Donald Trump, of
all people is and I'm sure they would call him
(09:29):
an imperfect vessel, because that's just the shortcut for somebody.
We don't agree with it all, but he's going to
ram through what we want. Is just so wrong on
every level. I have never and I just want to
step back a second and say, I don't care what
Donald believes or doesn't believe. It should be irrelevant. This
is the United States of America. However, the cynicism of
(09:52):
using other people's faith in the way that he does
when he himself believes nothing. There is nobody, no entity
more important in Donald Trump's universe than he is to himself.
So I just want to be clear about what they
were acted. Was it the stance you took after this
alleged man of God tried to overturn his own government?
(10:14):
Is that what they objected to? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I think this came in slightly after I voted to
impeach and yeah, and that was that was their government.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It was January eighth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
What's it. Yeah, Yeah, So I don't even think that
by that point, I don't think i'd even voted to
impeach him. Then that was just me speaking out, you know,
against it, and of course I was. I was active
before January sixth and calling that stuff out. But again
it's it's Christian nationalism first off, and that has no
place in government. But Christianity has been replaced by Christian nationalism.
(10:48):
And I say, it's no different. That is the kind
of thing that if you were in Afghanistan and there
was somebody, you know, fighting against the Taliban, would receive
from a Taliban supporting family, and there's no difference in that.
And it's just you know it too. People ask me like,
how does it make you feel? I'm like, over the
(11:09):
last ten months, I've had to take inventory with the
impact that this stuff has had, and it's cumulatively had
an effect. It's just when you're in the middle of combat,
you don't have PTSD detil after. But I look at
it and I'm just like, how miserable their life must
be to be living with that kind of anger and hate.
And I have no desire, I guess I for my sake,
(11:31):
I forgive them, but I have no desire to have
any kind of a you know, a come to like,
let's let's come to terms party. They can never talk
to me again, as far as I care.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Your co Pilot in a Rock also sent you a
text that said I'm ashamed to have ever served with you.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's if you think about
the bonds of war. That's like, that's deeper than family.
I mean, And for him to send that, and I
just remember, I think I replied to him, and I
said something to the extent of like, how is it
that you woke up this morning and you were so
eaten up by this anger against me that you would
send me this text message? And like, do you think
(12:09):
that somehow I would have gotten it and been like, oh,
you're right, I repent. No, it would just make me mad.
But you had to feel like it made you feel
better to send it. And so I blocked him and
never talked to him again.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I was going to ask what happened, And Mary, I'm curious,
just before we move on to really other aspects of
the book, have you ever gotten a letter like that?
Have you been criticized either publicly or privately by members
of the Trump family, and can you tell us about
that experience?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It actually wasn't very dramatic. In some ways, there are Trumps.
So they sued me, and they continued to sue me.
But like our love language, uh is lawsuits. But you know,
we had been estranged for a really long time because
I got disinherited. As you know, it's ours to show
(13:00):
up to Christmas after that has happened, and it was
certainly after both of my grandparents had died. There was
sort of no need. But I did try tomend fences
with my aunt mary Anne, which is why I showed
up at the White House in April of twenty seventeen.
But I didn't really have any contact with them, and
as you can imagine, these aren't people with whom one
(13:21):
has deep emotional bonds, which is why, Adam, I just
want to say really quickly, I felt such pain about
your co pilot because I would find that much more wounding,
yeah than if my whatever my family would have to
say about me. So no, my family quite honestly has
been the leadst of my worries over the last few years.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Let's talk a little, Adam about your childhood, because it
sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing in every sense
of the word. Can you describe what it was like
to be Adam Kinzinger as a little boy?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's great you know, looking back on it,
you know, I know I live in Texas, and uh
so I kind of like missed the Midwest. When you leave,
you kind of realize what you had. And you know,
Midwest it's great people. I was raised with a great
mom and dad, great brother and sister, right like your
middle middle class family. My dad ran a homeless shelter
and my mom's a public school teacher. And you know,
(14:20):
also it was that life. We we were initially in
a pretty strict religious church, religious background, which I could
talk more about, but yeah, I would say, you know,
just just a great childhood. At six years old, I
started to taking interest in politics, which is weird.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And how did that happen?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
You know, because the press or something. No, it was
it was the eighties and a guy was running for mayor,
John Lewis of Jacksonville, Florida. We lived there for a
few years, and uh he had hot painkyard science because
it was the eighties and the hot pink was a thing,
and I was just kind of obsessed with that fanfare
of it. But that led to it as I got
(14:58):
older and could understand more or understanding what politics was,
and it just was like, I don't know, service in
politics was always just something I was interested in. But
I went through a very rebellious period in high school
and college. Failed out of college because I got too
involved in my fraternity. I got a point eight in
school one semester, which is you have to really try
to get a point oh eight, by the way it
(15:19):
is it is. And that allowed me then to kind
of really frankly get kicked out of college and spend
some time taking inventory. And then I got accepted back
and did well. But yeah, it was it was an
interesting time. But yeah, great childhood and I think has
led to a lot of the you know, as the
church would always say, it's like, do the right thing,
it's just most of them actually didn't. But it stuck
(15:40):
with me to do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
A public school teacher is a mom and a father
who I know was a businessman and then ultimately ran
a homeless shelter. It seems like that would be the
makings of a democrat. I'm not a Republican. So was
it your religious upbringing that that sort of imbued more
conservative values?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I guess so it's you know, my parents were Republicans
as well, and I actually I would say I would
put my dad in the line of like the compassionate
conservatism before it became uncool to say. And you know,
it's this idea that we do care about the down
and out and the best thing to do is to
help them have a hand up and to make their
life better. And so I think it was a what
(16:21):
I would actually consider actual conservatism and not this like
angry cut mean, you know division. It would be like
a real compassion for people. And so I think that's
where a lot of it came from. But certainly the religion,
the religious background. I mean, you couldn't be a Democrat
and be an independent fundamental Baptist. I mean, you'd be
kicked out of the church.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Tell us about your church. I don't really know much
about fundamental Baptists.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's it was so it's the last type
of church that still does the no drinking, no dancing,
no smoking, no movies, no rock music. Right, Oh, like footloose,
We like it's exactly, it's Footloose, That's who it is.
And uh so that was me and that lasted for
I don't know, i'd say that went until probably college.
(17:05):
I never followed a lot of those I was drinking
pretty young, unfortunately, and I think that was part of
a rebellious streak, but yeah, it was just it's one
of those where you kind of are taught everything is
black and white. You see this, you see this in
my relative's letter. Frankly, that's what you're seeing. But that
also helped me when I started to kind of challenge
(17:25):
what I believed and challenge the things I thought. It
actually helped me to open a lot more up in
my light. And I think it's probably a good reason
why I'm here and why I'm able to say, like,
the Republican Party is wrong and it doesn't believe in anything. Honestly,
I think that process of kind of leaving that church
I consider myself now just like Protestant non denominational, and
(17:46):
the process of leaving that church I think has helped
in a lot more ways than just that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
After this, Adam on what he got wrong, what he's learned,
and how more Republicans can have a little more self reflection.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter
(18:14):
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now
more of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger and my plus
one Mary Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Mary.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
One thing I was struck by is Adam's very honest
about his own sort of flaws and failings and his
own quite frankly big ego. And it seems like that
ego was one of the things that motivated you to
run for office after serving in a rock. Can you
explain that.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, So listen, if somebody, if a politician tells you
they don't have an ego, they're lying or they're not
going to win. I mean, that's just a fact. And
because you have to. You know, when I ran for Congress,
I basically said to seven hundred thousand people that have
all of you, I'm the best. You gotta believe it.
And so, you know, I was in Iraq and I remember,
you know, coming back from that and just thinking, you know,
(19:07):
I defended the country on the outside, I want to
defend it now on the inside thirty two or thirty yeah,
thirty two years old, thinking that you know, people would
want to elect me and put me in Congress. They
ultimately did. And uh, but you you when you start
tasting fame. And by the way, politics is the new Hollywood,
(19:27):
because now you can actually become famous. You can guarantee
you'll become famous, and you can do it easier than
you can on Hollywood. All you got to do is
tweet something astronomically crazy and the world will know your name.
And so when I started to get a taste for
that fame. When I was running, I was only the
second post nine to eleven veteran to get into Congress.
You know, I was young. A lot of attention and
that becomes addictive, and you know, you start getting on
(19:50):
the national TV and people will text you and you're like,
oh my gosh, I'm known. Somebody saw me the airport. Yeah,
I'm the man. Somebody saw me in the important they
knew who I was, you know, and uh, but it's
a reality that Look, I think Donald Trump is that
he's addicted to the fame and the attention as well.
But yeah, ego plays a lot. Now, I'll just say
also quickly on that. The one thing that I think
(20:13):
stuck with me from the war. From that, and as
part of the reason that you know I took the
stand I did, is I remember thinking, okay, if I'm
going to send young people to die for the country,
which I will, you know, as a member of Congress.
And I'm hawkish too. So if I'm going to send
people to die for this country, I have to be
willing to sacrifice this job for the country, because how
(20:37):
can I ask an eighteen year old to give up
their life, which is the obviously ultimate sacrifice, if I'm
not willing to give up a one hundred and seventy
four thousand dollars a year job with a powerful title.
And that stuck with me. You know, I thought it
would be like maybe some vote on social security reform
or some I didn't think it would be actually defending democracy.
(20:57):
But that stuck with me.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Is that what you think mere attracted your uncle to
all of this? I mean, he was already famous, he
was already you know, nationally known. Was this just fame
on steroids for him? You think?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
You know, I think I differ with with some people
about this.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I don't think that Donald intended to run with any
level of seriousness. Yes, he'd run before, and it was
always branding. And he always knew because this is one
of his few legitimate skills. He always knew where the
line was and when to pull back, because he could
never be seen to be losing, right, he had to
(21:38):
take control of the narrative and then suddenly, and I
think part of the reason he probably didn't take it
seriously is because like me and the rest of my
family were New Yorkers, and everybody in New York knows
that he's a total loser. So he saw how the
rest of the country or large large pieces of the
(21:59):
rest of the country thought about him, which was very different.
And he starts winning, and he starts winning primaries, and
he starts getting more support and worse. And I think
this is one of the reasons we're here now, because
he's taught this lesson to many in the Republican Party.
He started pushing the envelope and realizing he could get
away with anything. When he realized that he was getting
(22:21):
traction and could get the nomination, I think that it
was about winning, not about being the person with the
power and doing the job. He wanted the person with
the power to wield it and get money, because it's
always about money. So, Adam, I'm curious if that's been
your experience with what seems to be this incredibly swift
(22:42):
transformation of the party that nobody on that side of
the aisle feels like they need to play by any
rules anymore, and they keep getting rewarded for it.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, rules are for suckers. And you know, if you
think about what you said about Trump, I think is
one hundred percent right, because it's probably got to be
funny for you to if I just call him Trump
because you're like, I'm Trump too. But anyway, Donald's.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Works too because he hates being called Donald by his
support in it?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Does he really yes, oh yes, okay, perfect, and I'll
call Donald but he I think he just wanted to run,
to be crazy and you know, to brand, like you said,
and he accidentally got in front of a wave YEP,
which was GOP wanted to break the system. And by
the way, conversely, I think that the contrary not yet,
but by twenty twenty eight is actually ready for a
(23:30):
healer to come along, and they won't know it until
that healer basically runs and wins, because you always see
that in hindsight. But yeah, I think, Look, they used
to be people that went into Congress, went in for
the purpose of passing legislation, right of actually achieving things.
You don't see that anymore because passing legislation. If I
would run and say all the great things I did
(23:50):
for my district, that didn't matter anymore. What mattered was
how often I was on Fox News, how angry I was,
how much I took on the Democrats. And because it's
because the new currency is not accomplishments. The new currency
is fame and anger. And so yes, if you play
by the rules, and if you say, like I talk
about fire, right, and it's one of the things I
(24:11):
admit is we all played with fire a little bit.
And some of that is the anger, the fear, the division,
and every leader can do it, but you're supposed to
like keep that fire contained and then put it out
at certain times. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
But you did fall for that initially. Yeah, didn't you
talk about how you made a lot of mistakes and
you kind of went down that road before you self corrected. Yeah,
but you were one of the very few people who
self corrected.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah. And it's because I mean, look, it's I didn't
play with the fire as much as other people did
because I always still saw, like, okay, I'm going to
be judged by history here, right, And that was important
to me, but I did play with it. And a
huge problem with Citizens United the fundraising right, we're becoming
an oligarchy in this country. Let's just be clear about that.
(24:58):
And so everybody, now, if you're a regular person that
wants to run for Congress, you've got to raise a
ton of money. You can't raise money on optimism. I can't, honestly,
if I send out an email that says I want
to fix the road next door, or I want to
bring the country together, you're not going to raise money.
You will raise money if you say that Nancy Pelosi
wants to kill your family. Because listen, no matter how
(25:21):
much money you make or don't make, if I convince
you that I'm the only thing that can stand between
you and literally your family's death, which a lot of
people believe, you'll give me anything, including your social Security check.
And so that's what's happened. People have just gone off
the rails because now it's a dopamine addiction. Right, you
do a drug, you got to do more of the
drug the next time and the next time, and that
(25:41):
drug right now is fear and anger for people.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Why do you think so few people like you in
the Republican Party. Adam said, no, mos was it the dopamine?
Was it the addiction to power? Was it saying that,
you know, I've got a dance with the one who
brought me or whatever it is. I mean, I know
you talk about Lindsey Graham in the book. I know
(26:06):
you talk about Ted Cruz in the book. And you know,
I just interviewed the author, McKay Coppins of a book
about Mitt Romney, and I feel like there's so many
parallels between you and Mitt Romney. Did you two ever
talk about this?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
No, we actually text on occasion, but not really about this.
It just kind of like real quick text. He's not
a big Texter, but I am. And but I yeah.
I mean I think it's that it's like everybody in politics,
and I'm not saying this discouraged any excuse, but everybody
in politics you got to play with compromise a little bit, right,
and you know you're kind of figuring this out, and
(26:42):
what happens and what happened with Donald is everybody started
to say, Okay, well he's the president. I'll accept this,
and I'll do that. And eventually when you turn if
you're going to turn against him, you have to accept
the fact that you did things to enable him because
by sheer survival, still you're still there. And it's like
(27:03):
the sunken cost thing. So in Vietnam, you know we
lost when we lost ten thousand men, how come we
didn't leave Vietnam? Well, because we already lost ten thousand men,
how can we leave now? Right? So we stayed till
we lost fifty thousand. Well, that's the problem is once
you and Kevin McCarthy's a great example this, once you
start giving away a piece of your soul, you eventually
(27:23):
have to say the last seven years I've been actually
a huge sellout to then turn and it's just much
easier to convince yourself that, Look, I can't make a difference.
I mean, look at Kinsinger and Cheney, they both got sniped.
Why would I put my head out? Well, it's true,
but when nobody puts their head up, ever, the ones
that do get sniped.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I just want to add something to that question, because
you talk about how you did not vote for Donald
in twenty sixteen, but you did vote for him twenty twenty,
which is fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I know I'm the only one in America that did that,
by the.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Way, but in the way you explained it, it makes perfect
sense because we're hearing now that a lot of senators
didn't vote to impeach him or convict him in the
Senate because they were afraid of retaliation. And I don't
think you use this phrase explicitly, but there's a certain
level of peer pressure as well, and knowing that with
somebody like Donald you're all in or you're all out,
(28:14):
there's no you can agree with him sometimes and disagree
with him. So I'm very curious though, why for more people,
January sixth wasn't the moment he lost the election, no
matter how much he wanted to lie about it, he
incited a violent insurrection against his own government, placing you,
(28:35):
your staff and the staff of everybody else in that building,
all of your colleagues at risk. People are calling to
hang Mike Pence. And two days later, three days later,
I don't remember what it was a very short period
of time.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I was gonna say, Mary, it was the moment for
a moment, right, it.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Was the final off round and the best and clearest one.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
What happened, Well, look, so I'll say you know, on
voting the second time for him. I had experienced four
years of everybody being like, you never voted for Trump,
you know, you're a pos and all this, and I
just basically.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Who was saying that your constituents are your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah, yeah, the constituents. The colleagues didn't care, but and
so you do with Then I was just finally like, okay,
I'm not gonna lie. So I'm like, I'll vote for him.
I didn't do it enthusiastically, but I did it so
I didn't have to deal with what I just dealt
with for four years. By the way, that's a macrocosm
of exactly why Mike Johnson just won the speakership because
there were twenty five Republicans that said, note to Jim Jordan,
(29:36):
which is great, by the way, but they just couldn't
do it a second time, right, and so they're like fine,
and they capitulated on that one. But the January sixth
it was weird because in the conference, So when I
refer to the conference, just imagine all these Republican congressmen
and women meeting. Okay, So in the conference, it was
basically dead silent after January sixth, And to give you
(29:56):
an example, I was actually considering doing a vote of
no confidence against Kevin McCarthy for allowing this to happen,
and I actually thought that I might have been able
to win it. So that gives you an idea of
where the conference was. Okay, three weeks later, so everybody's
kind of sitting there quiet. We don't know what's going
to happen. We're waiting for direction and leadership to say, okay,
it's time to move on. Right, there's still the crazy
(30:18):
Trump faction, but they were pretty small and quiet at
this point. They were I mean, they were loud, but
they were small. Kevin McCarthy goes to mar A Lago,
gets this picture taken with Donald Trump, and the world
turns on a dime. And that is when he took
the off ramp we had, and he drove right past
the off ramp onto the interstate and floored it. And
there have been one hundred but jillion different off ramps
we could have taken, but that was the biggest one.
(30:40):
And Kevin made the decision because he wanted to be
Speaker of the House. He knew he needed to raise money.
He knew that if he took on Donald Trump, that
he would be denied enough to become speaker, and so
he decided to fully embrace Trump because once he did that,
quote unquote, he knew he could bring the rest of
everybody else along. It was a selfish decision by Kevin
(31:02):
McCarthy that then led to all these limmings in the
Republican Congress following because if Kevin's going with him, we
can't not.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And did Lindsey Graham. There were a lot of people
who expressed their disgust for that's tiny window of time.
And then you're right, everything turned on a dime. And
is that why you think so poorly of Kevin McCarthy.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, So I started to dislike Kevin prior to the
election because I noticed that he was defending Donald Trump
more than he would defend his people. So, you know,
if I said something against Donald and I got attacked
by him because I'd say that a lot. Even during
his presidency, Kevin wouldn't defend me. He would defend the
former president. And I'm like, well, your job as the
(31:49):
minority leader is to defend your people. So that's when
that fallout started. And then I also have no respect
for people that don't truly have a moral core. You
can make compromise for sure, and that's okay to some extent,
but when it comes to actual, like oath type things,
I lose all respect for you. Look, and this is
maybe a controversial way to say it, I don't care.
(32:11):
I don't take an oath to the people I represent. Frankly,
the people I represent are secondary. The only thing I
take an oath to is the Constitution of the United States.
And if seven hundred thousand people I represent all want
me to violate my oath, I took an oath not
to them, to the Constitution, and Kevin McCarthy took that
exact same oath and instead he made a decision for
(32:34):
himself that would change the trajectory of this country. Look,
I can say there can be any issue. We disagree
on any issue, but we can work through that as
long as we agree that the election system is sound. Okay.
It's why you've even come around on the issue of
voting rights, because I'm like, you know what Republicans are
trying to steal elections. I used to like vote against
some of the things because I'm like, yeah, no, that's
(32:55):
a little Hyperbolieve. There's not going to be a stolen election. Now,
I'm like, I'm not in Congress anymore or so it's
easy to say it, but I would vote for voting
rights now because I'm like, yeah, actually, Republicans are trying
to disenfranchise. But once you take away the faith in
the election system, you cannot govern yourself. Like democracy goes
out the window. And that's what Donald Trump did by
(33:15):
saying the election was stolen. He convinced half the country
that the election system doesn't work. And by definition, democracy
can't work if you don't have a system that doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
After the break the January six hearings, Adam Kinziger on
what they didn't do and what they did do. Now
more of my conversation with Adam Kinziger and Mary Trump.
(33:51):
What was it like overseeing those January six hearings? I
watched most of them. I had a friend who helped
produce them, and I thought they were so well done
and so clearly made the case for what had happened,
and yet they didn't move the needle. And I know
you right about this, Adam, but share with our listeners
(34:11):
why you think that was the case.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Well, I first of want to say it didn't move
the needle in the GOP. But I think there is
no way. Oh I don't just think this, I know this.
The Department of Justice would not have a case against
Donald Trump right now without the January sixth Committee. So
it was historic in that way. I know that my
son Christian, when he goes to school and learns about
this time period, he's not going to hear about the
(34:36):
FBI doing this or Antifa. He's going to hear the
truth because we got to the bottom of that. So yes,
it didn't change people's minds at the moment because they
are so vested in being right that they can't admit right.
But their kids are never going to believe the conspiracy theories,
and I think within ten years their parents are going
to pretend like they never believed it in the first place.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I think it made a huge difference for the reasons
you say, for the education it gave us, and absolutely
for what it led the DOJ to do, the evidence
that was collected. One of the most brilliant things about
it too is that almost what ninety eight percent of
the people testifying were Republicans, which was huge. I think
it motivated voters. I think you don't have what happened
(35:20):
in twenty twenty two without the January sixth hearing. And
it doesn't mean that it convinced Republicans. It means that
it motivated the rest of us who were so moved
and devastated and proud of what your committee did.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, thank you, And I'm going to tell you. So
everybody knows the details of what we did, but I'll
share you with you a little insight and I talk
about it a little bit in the book, which is
just it was like God himself put the right people
in that committee because each of us had like a
unique skill set that we needed for that moment. Liz
(35:57):
Cheney is a dogged like she's a dog on a bone.
She's not gonna let go, and she is like was
obsessed with this the whole time the rest of us
had families. She just like lived in the vault learning
this information and she could put it together because she's
a lawyer and a good scholar on that. You know.
Benny Thompson like, it is very rare to find somebody,
particularly a chairman of a committee, who was willing to
(36:19):
let other people get the spotlight, and he did that
with Liz. We needed that we needed his calm leadership.
You know, Jamie Reskin annoys everybody because they'll tell you
how much he knows, but he knows a ton, right,
so he brings that. You know, I was paying attention
to the right wing conspiracy theories, so I was able
to come in and share, like, we have to address
the Ray Epps issue. If you don't know the REEPS issue,
(36:41):
then count yourself blessed. But if you're listening to Fox
News or something, they all know Ray Epps. And so
everybody brought these unique things. It was a moment that
has never happened before. It will never happen again, unfortunately,
but it was such a historic moment and we all
got along and a really quick funny quip. Immediately determined
(37:01):
to dub Adam shiff as Adam Senior, and I dubbed
myself Adam Junior because I wanted to make the age joke,
and it stuck the whole time in the committee.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I'm sure. I'm sure he really appreciated that.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
He tried to fight back against it a couple of
times and then he just went with it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So Kevin McCarthy obviously is pushed out. Jim Jordan doesn't
get it. It's just sort of this clown car of
potential speakers until finally Mike Johnson gets it, and he's
an election denier.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, and he's worse.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
But yeah, I think you call him an insurrectionist in
a suit. Maybe. Is that something that you said, Adam
or Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I said, he's Jim Jordan with a jacket. And then
I told somebody who said publicly what I said, which
is he's Jim Jordan and drag.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You said he was a well dressed insurrectionist.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He So look every if
you look back at the arguments being made to not
certify the election by any member of Congress, they all
cited Mike Johnson, who was a constitutional quote unquote, you
know lawyer, and they cite his arguments. He's the one
that obviously initiated the Amicas brief so members of Congress
(38:14):
could sign on to the Texas lawsuit, which is the
first thing, the first attempt to throw out these legitimate
votes cast by place like Michigan. And his scary thing
is he speaks well, he looks good, he looks like
a very polished politician, and he is the chief insurrectionist
of the House. He doesn't get the credit that Jim
Jordan does because Jim Jordan was louder. But Mike Johnson
(38:38):
is the reason that some of these lawsuits and stuff
went forward. So yeah, I'm extremely worried that he's there.
I mean, it's just not good.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
What does that portend for the House and what will
it mean in general for legislation.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Well, I think first off, it means the House isn't
going to do much. I think, you know, we've got
to get through this government shutdown that's coming up, which
I think the government will shut down, but I don't
know how long. Inevitably it has to end. But I
worry about what it means for aid for Israel and Ukraine,
particularly Ukraine. I think they'll get aid for Israel regardless,
but Ukraine to me is really the fight of our
(39:13):
generation right now. Now. Mike is as indicated that you know,
he's open to putting aid on the floor. That's good,
I'll give him that, but he's also said like maybe
it's months away, and the fact that he's going to
pay for the Israel aid of ten billion by cutting
the IRS. It'll be interesting to see how he pays
for the one hundred billion or sixty billion in a
(39:34):
to Ukraine. And by the way, just a real quick point,
most people don't realize when you talk about like sixty
billion to Ukraine, it's not like taxpayer money. A little
bit of that is a lot of it is old
equipment that we were going to destroy, like the a
tackms that we were getting ready to destroy that are
being replaced anyway we send to Ukraine and we have
(39:56):
to put a price tag on it. We have to
value that. That's what a lot of that money is.
Cluster munitions, for instance, we gave Ukraine. In fact, they're
very effective. I know they're controversial, but they're very effective
for Ukraine's war. Those were all set to be destroyed
because we were going to get rid of cluster munitions.
But we have to put a value on that. That's
just a quick aside that I think people I don't
know too much on that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Why aren't more people taking the road that you and
Liz Cheney. Maybe the simple answer is it's just power.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I guess when you started to see anybody that spoke
out against Donald being defeated getting death threats. It only
takes a number of those for people to be like,
I'm not going to put my head up right, there's
a survival thing there. Yeah, Now what you see is
a lot of people that don't run again. That includes me.
And by the way, quick aside, I probably wouldn't have
run again anyway, because I had been in the House
(40:46):
twelve years. That's a long time. But people don't run
again because they're like, I'm just done dealing with it,
and I understand it. But in terms of me, you know, look,
I still consider myself a Republican for only one reason,
because I refuse to let them win. And I also
know that being a Republican gives me a unique ability
to go after Republicans, right because if I attack a Democrat,
(41:08):
everybody's be like, he's a Republican attacking democrat. If Democrats
attack Republicans like ma, that's just If you're a Republican
attacking Republicans, people pay attention. And I haven't changed, you know,
I've moderated on a lot of issues, but that's just
with age. And so I voted Democratic in twenty twenty two.
I'll vote Democratic in twenty twenty four because I think
there's only one issue on the ballot, and it's do
(41:29):
you believe in democracy or not because all the other
stuff we can decide on later, exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And that's why I want to know a little bit
more about where you're doing, because you are one of
the very few people who still identifies as a Republican,
not a former Republican, not a newly minted independent, who
understands that in a deep way, just as in twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two, in twenty twenty four, we
are voting for democracy or we're voting for autocracy. And
(41:55):
until we get to the point where democracy is not
just saved one more time, but it's actually strong, we're
never going to be able to get to the point
where you and I can start disagreeing about policy again.
So how did you come up with this plan of
yours to just only focus on electing pro democracy candidates?
(42:17):
And how's it going? Because I think this is probably
the most important work we could be doing right now.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Yeah, it's great, and thanks for your work on it too.
And I so my organization is Country First. It's Country one,
the number one st dot com. And look, in twenty twelve,
I had a competitive member against member primary and because
I got redistricted and with another Republican, and I actually
got a lot of union support. I had union support
in Illinois, and one of the things I was able
(42:45):
to do was get like union Democrats to pull a
Republican ballot and vote for me. And I won. And
so I've been taking that now to the streets, so
to speak. So a couple of things we're doing. We
have an acacemy that's teaching people how to run right,
how to actually be a candidate, because that's there's a
lot of questions on that from people. Republican or Democrat,
doesn't matter. You just put in the country first, that's
(43:06):
the only requirement. And secondarily the question is like, Okay,
if you live in a very Republican district, for instance,
and you're represented by an insurrectionist and you're a Democrat,
you know, yeah, you can vote democratic in the general election.
They're not going to win. So pull a Republican ballot
if your state allows it, and actually vote for a
(43:27):
better Republican even if you don't like that person, a
pro democracy Republican. That's how we beat Madison Cawthorne in
North Carolina. We had five thousand Democrats that pulled a
Republican ballot and he lost by thirty five hundred votes.
So that's the kind of action we're trying to do.
And you know, I'd love to see frankly, things like
rat choice voting and some and real campaign finance reform.
(43:47):
That's a kind of Tier two targets because that's going
to take a while.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I know Andrew Yang and Christy Todd Whitman are working
on that. Actually, yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Very important, and so I think those are some changes
we can make. But look, it took us deck to
get to this moment. It's going to take us a
while to get out of this moment. But we just
have to have patience.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I want to pick up on that because you know,
you talked about Adam in twenty twenty eight having sort
of a healer come. I have two questions about that. One,
is the Republican Party salvageable? Could it be morphed into
a more reasonable, policy oriented Dare I say moderate, sensible,
(44:26):
willing to compromise party? And if so, who are some
of the leaders who are up and coming who can
replace what's come to be known as the gerontocracy?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Right?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, where do you see happening in the future with
all of this.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Well, so I see twenty twenty eight as going to
be a pretty good year for this country because it's
going to be all new candidates on both sides, and
I think there's'd be a lot of new energy. I
hope it's not the vek Ramaswami types. I hope it's
just people with good ideas. And so the question of
who is going to be the upcoming leader, I don't know,
because I don't know if they exist in the political
sphere right now.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Is there anybody out there who impresses you ad him?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
No, honestly, I mean not in the GOP because I now,
you know, look, I like her to an extent, but
she's she's been justifying, you know, Donald Trump, saying it's
a two tier justice system. Right. It's like, you can't,
on the one hand, be this awesome truth teller and
then say that Donald Trump is a victim of a
witch hunp Look at Tim Scott. I'm friends with Tim Scott,
(45:28):
but that guy just basically defended Trump and said Biden
has blood on his hands, for God's sakes, because of Israel. Like, so,
I don't know who those people are I do think
the Republican Party is salvageable. It will have to be
because we have two parties in this country, and naturally
power flows to where you can get fifty percent of
the people. If the people reject the GOP and reject
(45:50):
the extremism in the GOP, it will naturally have to
self correct, and it will do that. I do think
it's a ways off, though I don't think that's going
to happen anytime soon, but it could be accelerated in
twenty twenty eight if there's a good candidate that I
say this, we need a If you're a Republican, your
mentor is Ronald Reagan. If you're a Democrat, AT's Obama.
It's that we need that kind of a person, I
(46:12):
think to come along and bring the country together.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Could it be you?
Speaker 3 (46:16):
You know, look, I'd be open to it. I never
thought i'd ever get back into politics. But I also
am like looking at this like the itches coming back
a little bit. I'm careful to say it because I
don't want people to think that what I'm doing now
isn't anything like because of a plan to run for president,
because it's not. But I wouldn't turn it down, it'd
be something I'd certainly be open at looking at.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
But there is, you know, as you just said, there's
a leadership vacuum there, and we need people who represent
people who aren't represented by the Democratic Party or who
views are represented by Democratic Party. Again. The Democratic Party
is the only major political party currently that is per
Democracy Party, and we need the Republican Party to be
(46:54):
that again. And I think that's that's why what you
and Liz Cheney did as an Americans, as people who,
as you said, made a nose to the Constitution, not
to one man, not to your conciituents, have sort of
paved the way. So it's going to be I think
it's going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens
in twenty twenty eight, But we have to survive twenty
(47:15):
twenty four first, and that's going to be That's going
to be the trick.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
That's right. I don't want to give people hope that
twenty twenty four is going to get better. It's going
to be really bad. But the hope does come after that.
And I think I think it's going to be an
American century. I mean, I really do. I think if
you just look at all the metrics are people everything,
It's going to be great, But we go through these
times in history. You look at the twenties and there
are two million Kukluks. I'm sitting in Chicago right now.
(47:39):
There are two millillion Ku Klux Klan members within one
state of Chicago all the way around in nineteen twenties. Right.
We came back from that, We'll come back.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
I thought it was so interesting, Adam, what you said
about the Democratic Party and about the potential of it
becoming fractured over Israel, and you were saying, as someone
from a part that has really kind of imploded, you
were issuing a bit of a warning to Democrats. And
the other thing I wanted to say, while we're on
the topic of Democrats, yes they may be pro democracy,
(48:11):
but they certainly are not reaching a lot of these disenchanted, disenfranchised,
blue collar voters that make up the bulk of Trump support.
And I'm curious if you could speak to both of
those issues.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Well, let me first off say, like, I get concerned
with the Democrats because when I tell them this thing,
they get offended and get mad at me. And I'm like, look,
if you think I'm just throwing a spiritu to hurt you.
I'm not I'm warning you. And if you don't want
to believe it, this is exactly the kind of warnings
that were coming from people like Michael Moore in twenty
sixteen when he predicted Donald Trump would win and everybody
(48:49):
laughed at his face, including me. By the way, so yes,
on Israel, I remember five years ago a guy named
Dana Roorbacher who was the old me pro Russian Republican
in the House of Representatives, and I would attack him
and attack him in the committee. I got along with him,
but I would attack him on these issues, and everybody
told me, stop attacking Dana. It's just Dana. Right now,
(49:12):
about half of the party is pro Russia. Okay, it grows,
and so that's just a warning to people. And then
what was the other issue?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
I think the other question I had is, you know,
you talk in your book about sort of how coastal
elites and the Democratic Party and this is not a
new thing either, but how they dismiss and disrespect people
in the middle of the country and the flyover states,
and it's it really is true that there, for whatever reason,
(49:43):
the Democratic Party has become a party of elite, college educated,
wealthy people.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's actually kind of switched with
the GOP on that by the way, right, you know,
the voters in my district when I started it, when
I started serving, was a swing district. It became a
very Republican district and there wasn't a lot of migration
in and out of the district. People switched because they
felt left behind by the Democrats. And you know, look,
I'm sitting in Chicago right now. Can't tell you in
(50:12):
the last two days the number of hardcore Democrats I've
spoken to here that are upset about the crime in
the city. And now you have this huge migration issue
because you know, there's a lot of like ten cities
that are upset about it, and that's an issue that
Democrats can talk about the compassion. I'm actually very compassionate
to immigrants. I'm a moderate on immigration reform. But you've
(50:33):
got to listen when you hear those echoes of concern,
listen to them and deal with them, because otherwise people
will feel unheard like they did in the Midwest. And
it's why a place like Wisconsin that never should have
voted Republican is voting Republican. So it's another again, another warning.
When you hear people being upset about something, don't just
(50:54):
tell them they're wrong. Actually, maybe find out if there's
something to it.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Pay attention.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Well, the book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty
in Our Divided Country. Adam, it's a pleasure talking to
you and Mary. This was so fun.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
This was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Well thanks for having you guys.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, really fun talking to you. Thanks, Adam, and good
luck with the book. And if you announce anything, do
it with Mary and me. Okay I will, Oh sure,
you take care.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Mary.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
That was really fun. Did you enjoy that conversation?
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Oh my, that was incredible. Well, you're like the master,
so it's a sort of like, yes, it was great
talking to Adam, but just watching you work is just
like so cool for me.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Oh well, listen right back at you. I'm a big
fan and you're doing obviously a podcast, and I know
you have a newsletter too.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Yeah. The Good in Us is my newsletter, which is
on substack, and that's sort of where I'm trying to
create a community and keep people positive in these very
dark times because it does feel like the times are
pretty dark and kind of getting darker, and we need
to keep people engaged for another year. It's only twelve months, Skati.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
That just is It's so crazy, isn't it. And we
need to keep them engaged period. I think the number
of people in this country who don't vote is such
a travesty and I wish they would make it a
national holiday, give everyone off, you know, the day off
from work and almost. I mean, I think they have
mandatory voting in some countries. I think in Australia, I
(52:35):
think it's an obligation. I think it's a duty, you know.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's what we need to write. We
need a bill of responsibilities.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Actually, we need a lot of stuff. Mary Trump, well,
thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.
And what's your substack again so people can sign up
for it.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
It's called the Good in Us, The Good in Us,
The Good in Us. I'm trying to be positive positive yep.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Or you could just.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Google my name and subseach and you would get there
and I will be keeping everybody posted about when the
Mary Trump Show re emerges with my nerdive engers and yeah,
because we've got to hit the ground running.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
A lot to do, and you've already written two books,
right Mary.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, and I'm actually finishing my third, which is coming
out in July, so I'll have to keep you posted
about that as well.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Has it been satisfying to find your voice this way?
I mean, I'm sure it's been very agonizing and upsetting,
because the reason you have found your voice is gosh,
I don't even know how to describe it, you know,
disillusionment with the family member. But do you feel like
you're putting important stuff out in the world.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
I do.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Actually, I very much regret the fact that Donald is
still a force in American politics. I think that's dangerous
and it says a lot nothing good about where we
are as a country. But I feel enormously grateful that
I've had the opportunity to join the resistance and the
(54:09):
fight for democracy because, uh, who knew that we would
be here, or that I would be here. So it's
been a wild ride. I do look forward to focusing
on other things at some point, I.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Think all of us do.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Thanks Mary so much.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Thank you Katie. This is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six oh nine five point two five to five five,
or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I
would love to hear from you. Next Question is a
(54:57):
production of iHeartMedia and Katie Correct Media. The executive producers
are Me, Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer
is Ryan Martx, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and
Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more
information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter,
(55:20):
wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.