Remembering JFK Jr. and Carolyn: 25 Years Later - Part One: John

It’s hard to believe it’s been 25 years since John F Kennedy Jr, his wife Carolyn Bessette, and her sister Lauren Bessette, died in a plane crash. On July 16, 1999, the plane, piloted by John, went down off  the coast of Massachusetts–shocking the world. Just a few months prior, Katie sat down with John for what would be his last television interview. Now, for a special two-part remembrance, she reflects back on that fleeting moment in time when John and Carolyn captivated the public’s imagination and talks to the authors of two new books about them, contemplating their scrutinized lives, their fierce love, and their enduring legacy.

 

Today we bring you companion episodes remembering John and Carolyn, as well as Lauren–their scrutinized lives, their fierce love, and their enduring legacy.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well,
just a couple of months ago, I sat down with
John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be
his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the
occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John
and his sister every year. As it happened, we did

(00:25):
not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to
share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK
Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking
about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen
ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after
John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't

(00:47):
believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months
before he.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Parented for both of them, and I think she was
deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were
part of our upbringing and some of her own which
were not his, And I think there was a dynamic
there that was healthy.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all
these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary.
Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior,
his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing
piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts.

(01:32):
He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three,
and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today,
on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of
companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors
of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by
journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy.

(01:58):
Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection
of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by
Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as
well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time,
no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much

(02:18):
about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding
among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it
seems like many people who knew them are now willing
to open up and tell some stories about their lives.
What was it about John and Carolyn that made people
so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent

(02:40):
both the past and the future? Was it a combination
of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I
was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them,
and of course one of the millions of women besotted
by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and
was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books,

(03:03):
in many ways, we get to know them all over
again and have a much better sense of who they
really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome
to next question. How are you both doing great?

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are
responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite
chapter and which voice did you like? So I think
because we've lived in our heads for so long and
of course in the many papers on my desk, but
it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Before we talk about sort of the book and how
you all set it up, which I think is really
unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk
to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior,
and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why
don't we start with you?

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff
for five years at George. I became very close friends
with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful
friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional
relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Liz, what about you? How did you know John F.
Kennedy Junior.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my
boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married,
and she said, you got to find out everything about
these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately.
And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero.
And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning
me down than John's friends, because the response would always

(04:54):
to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't
talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't
talk to me. But they did return, some of them
to return my call. And for that I'll always be
as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah,
basically nobody talked back then.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Maybe there was one friend.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
This was when you were at People magazine.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I
weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned
my call.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
They always said no, but I returned your calls.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
But I only met Rose a year, probably about a
year after John died. We met for the first time,
So our relationship really started after John's death.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously,
on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty
five years since John died, which is just so impossible
to believe. But what was your goal when you were
working on this book and publishing it around this time?

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John
to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten,
and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was,
his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And
I think that enough time had passed where for me

(06:09):
and also for his friends and some of his family
members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Him than the morning.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
It felt like enough time had passed that we could
celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that
I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt
that if he knew you were going to be gone
at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls.
What was it like for you to report on this
now versus when you were first given this assignment back
in the day.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when
you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say,
but I had met some of John's friends over the years,
maybe through books they had written or other projects that
we had done together. But of course it's a whole
different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose.
You know, I think it was I was just really

(07:06):
interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people,
you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went,
tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions,
and we sort of wanted to present sort of this
kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices,
all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there
were a lot of like surprises along the way.

Speaker 5 (07:26):
So I think, you know, Rose and.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
I would get so excited when we got a great interview,
and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down.
But it was all like we were. I was like
learning as I went. So I think it sort of
gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave
us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting
at the same time.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
The format of the book is very interesting, and that,
as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I
don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from
a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over
two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me,
and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that

(08:08):
I had done John's last on camera interview and how
in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how
did you all decide to format the book the way
you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John,
even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and

(08:31):
Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me
about sort of putting it together and how you decided
to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times
several paragraphs.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could
be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this
better than I would. But I think what we wanted
it to feel like was you were sitting in a
room or in a living room and just sharing memories
of John and of his life. And I think for

(09:04):
the part of it that was you know, historical so
to speak, going back to his mom and dad and
their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so
that for people who might not have known him or
didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were
reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they
kind of got the background, the history. This is why

(09:27):
this person is who he is, and this is how
he got there, and this is so I think it's
important when you want people to invest in someone to
do that, to really paint a full picture.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
And to really hear their life story from the very beginning,
even before they were conceived, right, And I think that
made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions
of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military,
fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that

(09:59):
very po it remembrance of the President looking at the
Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John,
never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after
that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for
the layout of the book.

Speaker 4 (10:19):
I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know,
and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so
there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know,
and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh,
this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's
wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other
person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost

(10:40):
like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and
what about that? And so you kind of were like
maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something
would flow.

Speaker 5 (10:48):
Into the next thing, or somebody would say something.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
And when I started it, I actually made print outs
of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am.
I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen
table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break
it to see it in a new way and then oh,
this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The
idea was to sort of give it energy, people having

(11:11):
a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning
and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into
the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to
make it as lively and as possible and really sort
of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really
sharing stories.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
At the beginning of the book, you have an interview
with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie
and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I
think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and
he was thirty three, and I think a lot of
people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no

(11:50):
game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack
was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted.
He thought he was a great don juant, and most
women didn't think of him as a great don juant.
That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh,
this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an
awkward guy.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay,
and she has survived a lot, so I will just
leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take.

Speaker 5 (12:21):
She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
How old is Martha at this point.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was
going strong.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Good for Martha and she you know, I know she
also told you that Jackie knew from the get go
that he was a big philanderer, but because of her
father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it.
Is that accurate, Rose, Marie?

Speaker 3 (12:55):
I don't know about that. I think that might be
Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I
think we all go into a new relationship, and I
would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for
the best and hoping that we have a great romance.
And I think in a lot of ways they did.

(13:17):
But I think that there's always you know, there are
always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how
I look at it. I think everybody goes it in
hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope,
you know.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds
like he was kind of a dog, but because her
dad was kind of a dog that, at least according
to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's
quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about
what you're used to, you connect it with love. So

(13:54):
I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship.
And how did you take away from all the people
with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I
thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her
fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier,
Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died

(14:21):
shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and
she and according to whoever it was who was talking
at this time in the book, decided to go to
Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said
that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and

(14:44):
that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed
her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in
a way. Right No.

Speaker 4 (14:54):
Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who
was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more
a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness,
and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right,
that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and
what that does to a couple. So that was really

(15:17):
touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in
a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer
together or further apart. And I think it's, you know,
just sad that happened that way. And then they went
to Dallas.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated,
and boy, the details in the book about that are
so hero range. You know, it made me think and
wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and
it made me so sad that he couldn't read this

(16:00):
book and the remembrances of people who saw him with
his dad, and the part where his father knew that
Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so
when she went away, he would have the White House
photographer come in because he knew people would love to
see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't

(16:22):
feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that
very famous photo of John John under the desk was
taken when Jackie was out of the White House and
the coast was clear, right yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that
his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so
his father would always have gum for him, and he
had it under his desk, and that's how John got
under there to get the gone.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
That's so funny. He was a little young to be
chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old?

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Was he?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Two or three years old at the time?

Speaker 3 (17:01):
And even three? It was guy.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination
of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his
bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If
you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown
of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness

(17:29):
and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake
Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back
with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John,

(17:51):
Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your
first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They
tell us about that.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair
may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and
she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort
of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they
were so close. And I think there was another friend,
Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know,
those two women are those are the primary sort of

(18:22):
influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister,
So it's I don't think I have thought about it
that way before, but when you think about it that way, right,
those two relationships really form who he is. So I
thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way,
like basically an unbreakable.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect
for women. I know that one of his friends said
he could have been out carousing, having one night stance.
But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older,
wasn't he?

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with
his mother and his sister or had a lot to
do with that. I think he had a respect for women,
and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He
didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think
his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences
on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything

(19:17):
any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a
tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was
cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't
want to see his mom or his sister be hurt.
You know, he adored those women. They and they really
formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John,

(19:39):
and he was of her.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt
about the fact that you were putting this book together.
Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the
two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look,
I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting
me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't
seem to be on my end from her any hard
feelings about it. It's just not something that she would
participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
What about other family members, did you reach out to them?
I mean, this is a big, big family.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go
far and wide with the family because I thought I
wanted to really have the people who were, you know,
close to him and who he communicated with most often.
But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know,
entry for the book, and I love it where she
talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name?

(20:41):
And he says John? And he says John, what's your
whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says,
do you know that you're named after an airport?

Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able
to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to
be very protective of John, and you know you kind
of alluded to this early on. But how do you
think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and

(21:15):
people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do
you think he would be upset with.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
You at all?

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Or what do you think he would say if he
were to walk into your room right now?

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after
they passed away would love to have their friends and
their family members and their colleagues come together and remember
them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their
memories so that they're not forgotten.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right,
so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think
as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted
to have this element of truth, but also to have
a lot of heart, and I feel like the book
does that. But I think you there has to be
an element of truth, like we had to if these
stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance,

(22:07):
like I felt, for me, it made me just have
a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness
for him.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
So that was our intent.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never
really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate
this the mythology of his father, the larger than life
figure that his dad was, with his own development as
a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with

(22:39):
that at times. What was that like?

Speaker 3 (22:42):
I don't know that he struggled with being part of
a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way.
He saw it as this is my family. They're not
a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me.
They're my family. I think what was interesting about what
I learned from the book was all of the little

(23:04):
sort of pieces that came together on him really kind
of searching to have a better understanding and a deeper
understanding of his father and really sort of getting to
know him through all the various people and things that
he did. And on one of those is you know,
George Magazine. I mean, he really he interviews people who

(23:27):
are I mean, he goes in visits with the Fidel
Castro and asks him for an interview. He you know,
he sort of wants to understand his father and his
father's presidency, and I think you can see that throughout
the book, and it's I think it was probably really
tough for him to know that the whole world, you know,

(23:48):
knew his father, and many people had memories of his
father that he didn't have. And I think that he
appreciated the affinity that people had for his father and
the affection, but I think it was probably difficult for
him not to have his own memories and not to
have his own connection as an adult.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Liz, what about the pressures on him to be a
really important figure in American society. How tough was that.
It seemed like he was trying to find his way working.
You know, he decided he didn't want to be a lawyer.
He then decided he wanted to be a magazine editor.
He was in the throes of getting support, even more support,

(24:31):
making sure that George could continue when he died. How
much do you think that weighed on him. I remember
reading the New York Post articles every time he failed
the bar and I thought, God, that's so tough to
have everyone in the world know that you failed the
bar exam because he took it? What how many times?

Speaker 5 (24:50):
List three?

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Three was the third time? A charm? Yes, okay, good,
thank god? But I mean, talk about what you learned
from people you interviewed, but also just from covering him,
this enormous pressure he felt.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
I mean, it's always interesting with him, and I think
there's sort of I felt like he's always sort of
breaking free, you know, doing his own thing. And one
thing that I always marvel at is like when I
think about his level of fame and who he was,
and there's almost like no protection, you know, because you're
a journalist. There's no doorman, there's no manager. He has Rose,
who's incredibly loyal and protective. But he was very much

(25:31):
part of the world, part of New York City. So
that was always interesting, and it did seem like there
was this element of breaking free, whether it was going
to Brown, traveling, just being amongst everyone right, definitely not
seeking protection, or definitely like out and about.

Speaker 5 (25:48):
So that's sort of fascinating.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
And yet it seems like at the end, I think
Steve Gillen said that he was John's biographer and a
friend of John's, and he wrote a great book about John,
called America's Electant Prince, and he said that John throughout
his life said I don't want to do what people
expect me to do. His life is a lot like
that out in Central Park, you know, found founding George.

(26:12):
But then he was saying that at the end of
his life, or it would be in the middle of
his life, John sort of is coming to this moment
where maybe he is going to do what people expect
him to do, but maybe he had to come to
that moment himself, right, which is maybe sort of what
this book is sort of about, sort of how he figures.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
It out himself. He was accosted by headlines in the
New York Posts like hunk flunks and all kinds of
things when he did not pass the bar exam, and
the book makes clear that he most certainly got into
Brown because of his name. So I was curious how
you all felt about his intellect and was he sensitive

(26:54):
about this notion that he wasn't maybe the sharpest tool
in the shed. I think that's you know, I think
those girl had an object to that. Rosemary God.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
I do because I knew him, and I knew he
was extremely intelligent, very wise, very tempered, and you know,
you have to also understand like at that time in
his life after college, he's studying or not studying for
the bar exam. You know, people fail things all the time,

(27:26):
but it's not on the front page of the New
York Post as you're you know, going down the street.
And I think those things were upsetting to him and
it hurt him. But I also think that John throughout
his life had seen that those things, as he always said,
as my and he said it in the letter to
Mike Tyson you know, today's headlines are lining tomorrow's trash cans,

(27:50):
and no amount of bad press is going to change
you know, your life if the people around you love
and respect you. And I think he lived life that way.
And I think he really did have an incredible eq.
You know, he had a way of walking into a
room and knowing exactly what was happening and who was

(28:12):
who and how to treat, you know, how people. You know,
he had this thing where he would go to the
shyest person in the room or the person who was
in the corner, and that's the person he would introduce
himself to. A person who seemed the most uncomfortable he
would introduce himself to. So it was like those kind
of things you're not you know, you're not dumb. And
I would also add.

Speaker 6 (28:32):
That probably another thing, Katie, and another thing, Katie, probably
half of the celebrities in the country's children got into
their colleges because of their parents' names.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
But that said, you know, no, he wasn't Caroline, he
wasn't an academic, but he he certainly wasn't, you know, dumb.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
I think people, they're all kinds of intelligence, right, and
I think people can be deeply intelligent and perceptive, but
not necessarily academic. So it sounds like he fell into
that category. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
And John was one of those annoying people where if
it didn't interest him, he didn't put on a you know,
he is kind of like a kid that way. If
it wasn't super interesting to him, he didn't you know,
he didn't give it at all.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
This free spirit that he seemed to possess, you know,
rollerblading and someone described him rollerblading down Columbus with a
big pizza box over his head and really kind of
just being very open and vulnerable and out there. Do
you think that was the result of his mom's desire

(29:46):
to have him live a normal life, because I know
that was really important to her.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah. I think part of it was that. I think
that's where the seed of it was planted. But I
think for John, he was in constant, perpetual. That was John.
He was not a guy to sit still. He was
not a guy to you know. He wanted to be
in the thick of it. As a friend of his
said when we opened the book, John wanted to be
on the dance floor with everybody. He didn't want to

(30:13):
be behind the ropes in the VIP section. He found
that boring. He felt like he was part of New
York and he belonged in New York, like I belong here.
I'm not some Ivory Tower person that doesn't belong in
the mix. He wanted to be in the mix. He
loved being around the city, he loved doing things that
were interesting. But also he was very you know, athletic.

(30:37):
He looked run around and exercise. I mean, he had that,
but he also had the idea that experiences happened, you know,
when you're in the thick of it, and John wanted
to have a life full of really rich experiences.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
I know that one entry talked about the impact Jackie
Kennedy's death from lymphoma had on her son and it
really changed him in many ways. Can you talk about that, Liz.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
Yeah, remember that interview, and it was from a very
close friend of John, somebody who had known him really
his entire life, and it really said I think his
phrase was that his wings came out or something like that,
that it was sort of, you know, there was like
tremendous sadness at the loss of his mom, but there
maybe there was also some kind of freedom that also

(31:30):
came with it, and that basically there was he sort
of became more of an adult, I guess, and that's
what and was sort of ready to take on new things.
So I think it was heartbreaking. And Rose was just
getting to know John at that time, so she would
probably know more than I. But I do remember the
friend saying, right, that was sort of a time for
his wings to come out.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Meanwhile, he dated a lot of women. Unfortunately never asked
me out, much to my chagrin. But I think I
was married when I met him. I mean, my god,
I did I did I mention I had a crush
on him? I think I did a few times in
the book. But you know, tell me a little bit
about his relationships. Did anything surprise you that you learned?

(32:11):
I mean, I know he had a girlfriend in the eighties.
I guess maybe who went to Brown with him. He
dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Give us a little tea, ladies.

Speaker 5 (32:21):
Well.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
One of the things that I think was interesting that
we discovered and that we you know, we kind of
knew but not really was there was a lot of overlap.
So he wouldn't just break off, be single and then
meet somebody else. He always kind of had overlap between girlfriends,
so it wasn't completely over, but he was sort of

(32:41):
starting with somebody else.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
I don't know if I like that term overlap. Yeah,
it was sure because I would not want to be
one of the overlap girls in either direction. Probably, But
do you think that's because he didn't want to hurt
their feelings or what was going on there with this

(33:04):
overlap situation?

Speaker 5 (33:05):
I mean, Rose I recall that.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
I think in those instances it was sort of when
a relationship was ending.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
And there was one friend who was unnamed in the
book who.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
Talked about that John couldn't really be single because this
person said that he would actually get calls from like
members of royal families wanting to fix them up, and.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
That was surprising why there was this sort of overlap,
why he was never really single. It was like, well,
he would be inundated with calls from you know.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Heads of state or people fathers or women themselves. John
much better than Hinge exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Like he didn't even have to do and read it.

Speaker 5 (33:51):
He didn't need it.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
After this break, JFK. Junior meets Princess Diana and they
form an instant connection as reluctant public figures now more
with Liz McNeil and Rose Marie Crencio. Team met with

(34:21):
Princess Diana at the Carlisle. Tell us about that that.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Was our most famous caper, trying to get in and
out of there without getting noticed, which we did.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
How did that happen and what was going on with
those two?

Speaker 3 (34:33):
He wanted her to be on the cover of George
and she was going to be in New York and
he was going over there to meet her and present
her with these sketches that Matt Burman or creative director
had done, you know, depicting what we would want to
do on the cover and how she would appear. And
you know, he went and met with her at the
Carlisle and she was there for a charity dinner and

(34:58):
her private secretary Patrick Jah at the time, and I,
you know, hatched the plan and we went over like
in the middle of the day, and I went with him,
and I walked in with him and waited downstairs, and
you know, he was up there for about I don't know,
maybe an hour, and they chatted and they said hello,
and they talked about various things, and he made his

(35:21):
little pitch for George and.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Did Sparks fly.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
No, they did not.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
And she was married at the time, yes, Or was
she divorced. No, I think she was coming out of
her marriage.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
But he was solidly with Carolyn at the time, and
it was it was kind of all business, you know.
And as Patrick describes it, like she in the book,
you know, she she had this sort of empathy for him.
She saw him as vulnerable and as someone you know
that she had empathy for because I think she probably
related to his situation.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
In fact, she later wrote him a note about the paparazzi, right.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, she said, I hope the paparazzi are leaving you alone.
If you can believe it. They're much worse here. I'm paraphrasing,
but it was just it was very you know, poignant.
But it was a situation where like, if it had
gotten out exactly what you said, did Sparks, why, it
would have been this whole tabloid frenzy of John and

(36:16):
Princess Diana dating. And that was not the case. So
we got there and decided let's just walk in the
front door instead of trying to go in a side
entrance because they're probably waiting for her at the side entrance,
so we walked right in the front of the Carlisle
completely unnoticed.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Did he like her? Did he think she was nice?

Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, he thought she was lovely. He thought she was
very shy. He said she had great legs, and he,
you know, I think he was disappointed that she said no,
but he understood.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Speaking of overlap, I know he was seeing Daryl Hannah
when he met Carolyn, and so he was balancing those
two relationships for a pretty long time, right. I don't
think he was in both relationships at the same time.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
I think that he and Daryl were on and off,
and I think when they were back on, he you know,
he and Daryl decided to give it. From what I
understand from his friends, they decided to give it one
more shot, and she was going to move to New
York and it didn't work out. It was sort of
at the end of that relationship. The second time around

(37:27):
that he meets Carolyn and they form a relationship, and
then he and Daryl break up and he ends up
with Carolyn.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Tell us a little bit about Carolyn Beset because you
got to know her very well. Rose Marie as most
executive assistants or chiefs of staff do because they have
intimate knowledge and it's really they talk to you all
the time and are with you constantly. And I think
most people you know, have demanding jobs become very very

(38:00):
close to their assistance. What was she like.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
She was great. I mean, Carolyn was She was so smart,
she was funny. She was also very protective of John.
I think she instinctually knew from the beginning when she
saw sort of what his life was like, that he
could be vulnerable, and he could be vulnerable to people
and people who weren't always trustworthy, and she felt this

(38:25):
sort of mama bear instinct of protecting him. And I
think he loved that. I think he loved that she
did that. And I also think that they were, you know,
they were buddies. They were like, you know, they would
go home and giggle and gossip about the day, and
they'd poke fun at each other and tease each other
all the time. And I think he loved that. I
think he had a relationship with her that was, you know,

(38:50):
kind of also a solid friendship.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
In fact, Gary Ginsberg, his friend from law school, told
you Carolyn had all the discernment that John Black like, honey,
he's playing you, or Honey, you don't need to do that.
She was the eyes and ears that he sometimes didn't have.
Part of John's charm was he would say yes to
a lot of things. She brought a certain discipline to that.

(39:15):
So she was kind of the bad comp it sounds
like in the relationship in some ways she was.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
And I think that was hard for her because I
think she got a lot of the heat for when
he started to say no and when he became a
little bit, you know, less available to people, especially after
they got married. As you know, many of us know,
you get married, you're not as out and about, you're
not as available, you're not hanging out with your buddies
all the time. And I think I think there was

(39:41):
some resentment from people, you know, towards Carolyn because of that,
because of the fact that she was protective, and also
because of the fact that John was being sort of
taken away from people.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right you can see that happening, right, People starting to
resent her because she brought some as Gary said, discipline
into the relationship and obviously he couldn't do everything. He
sounds like he was almost like a Labrador retriever he
was friendly and wanted to please people, but she was

(40:13):
able to rein him in in a good way.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah, And she also was able to say to him like,
why are you doing it? Why are you going? Or
she wanted him to sort of come to it on
his own, but she was sort of the catalyst for that.
And she would very much like say to him I
don't think you should go, and here's why, or I
don't think you should do that and here's why. And
they had heated discussion sometimes about it. But she was,

(40:37):
you know, she was really it was always about his
best interest.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
And after all, she did have a career in pr,
so she understood how the press worked. So probably her
her council was probably pretty helpful to him at times.
I wanted to ask Liz about the wedding because that
photo of them emerging on Cumberland Island off the host
of Georgia is so iconic. Tell us a little bit

(41:04):
about that photo and why it was so captivating.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Yeah, I think, you know, as we were reporting the
story or reporting the details, it was like no detail
was too small because this was such a magical wedding.
And Rose spoke to go go Ferguson who's the woman
who runs the Gray Field in which is where the
guests stayed and they had the dinner and she sort
of helped arrange. Just these details were so magical. And

(41:28):
I remember Go Go described Carolyn's dress as she said
she looked like a Kali lily, and I just thought, oh, like,
it's so beautiful and what a perfect description. And then
there's another place where she said it was like cream
was porto for her body, and I thought, wow, that's
an incredible description. So they're all these beautiful details, and

(41:49):
you know, and Rose was very involved in, you know,
in some of that, and there was like this element
of not di I y. But you know, when you
think about these big weddings that we report.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
On and wedding planners and like my daughters go on.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
Roses printing out the taking late at night at the
George office and.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
Printing out the programs at the George office on the printer,
you know, at ten o'clock at night, because we couldn't
send them somewhere to be printed. It would we were
afraid it wouldn't get out, you know. And also, as
you probably know, Katie, Cumberland is an island, so everything
has to be shipped there. You can't, you know, it
has to be ferried over. So it had to be

(42:32):
coordinated that way. And I think just the fact that
they decided to do it the way they did it,
which was forty people, their closest friends and family members,
and it really made it special.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
It really made it unique and special.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
One thing I learned from doing this book with Rose
is that Rose is the one who basically chooses that
photo to be released by that incredible photo that was
so magical. So I mean, you know, most people, as
you know, there'd be pouring over hundreds of photos that
perhaps it'd be a little air touching or retouching, and
you know, this was definitely not chosen that way. So Rose,

(43:09):
you should share a little bit about how you chose
that photo.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah. I think the photographer Dennis Reggie, I mean, what
a beautiful, what beautiful images he captured, I mean, he
was phenomenal. That photo of them in the church, that unbelievable.
But I think there were two options. And when I
spoke to Carolyn after the wedding and she said, which

(43:34):
one do you like? I don't know, I trust you
you can pick it. And I thought, oh, really, Wow,
they were very similar, but there was just something about
that look on her face of just pure joy, and
he just looked like he was he was blissful, and
it was just beautiful. It was perfect.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
My other favorite picture of them is when she's wearing
sort of a kind of a halter top with some
sort of design on the front and his jacket.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
The choker. Yea, it's the it's part of the design
of the shirt and it's a jumpsup actually, and she
has a jacket.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
On and he's behind her. I just think that is
such a beautiful photo. There are many beautiful photos in
the book. I can't let you go without talking about
sadly their untimely deaths, because this book is coming out
on the twenty fifth anniversary July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine.

(44:36):
Rose Marie, you were actually staying at John and Carolyn's apartment,
and I know Carol Ratziwell, who was married to Anthony
who passed away from cancer. She called you and said
they hadn't arrived yet. What did you think when you
got that call.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
I honestly thought Carol was mistaken, and I thought, well,
they went somewhere else, or they went they just haven't
arrived yet. They left later. Maybe they stopped in Nantucket
because they had some friends who were going to be
in Nantucket that night, and I thought maybe they stopped there.
I never in a million years imagined it was unimaginable

(45:18):
to think that they were gone, and I did not
think that at all. I just thought it was some
sort of fluke, some sort of you know, it will
resolve itself in the next few hours. And I was
actually thinking to myself when Carol said she called the Coastguard.
I thought, oh God, he's going to kill me if
this becomes a crazy media frenzy, you know story. That's

(45:42):
what I kept thinking. You know, he's going to think,
I'm he's going to think we've all overreacted and gone
gone mad when he finally reserved, when they finally resurfaced
and they're like, what did you do? What are you
talking about? We're fine. I never imagined that it would
be that it would be that it was. It was

(46:02):
literally unimaginable. And I remember it was we were into
the next day and I still wasn't, you know, totally there.
And then I think it was Saturday night. I spoke
to his cousin Bobby, and he said he must think

(46:23):
somebody must have said something to him, like Rose doesn't
think they're missing or they're gone, or you know, she
still thinks that there might be a chance. And he said,
you know, Rose Marie, he said John's not coming back.
And I just thought, oh my god. I mean, I
could cry now just thinking about it. But it was
just there was a finality to that. And he was

(46:45):
so lovely and so sweet to me, and so was
his wife Mary, and they were really really amazing to
me throughout the whole thing. But when he said that
John's not coming back, I just thought it was it
really struck me, and it shocked me, even though I

(47:06):
guess on some level I knew.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
You had a very heartbreaking conversation with Carolyn's mom. Was
that on that Friday night?

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Yeah, that was at about one o'clock in the morning,
so technically Saturday morning and her maybe it was midnight,
I can't remember, but she called and she had obviously
heard or Carol had called her. I don't remember how
she was alerted, but she was just panic stricken and
I was trying anything I could to give her hope

(47:40):
and to keep her, to keep her calm because I
didn't want her to panic either, and I just said,
I'm getting I'm trying to find out as much as
I can. Please don't panic, don't think the worst. I'll
keep calling you. I think I was calling her every
fifteen minutes with any update I could give her. She

(48:00):
was panicked, as any mother would be.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
She said something to you that just broke my heart
when I read it.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Yeah, she said I told him never to take two
of my daughters up at the same time.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Because Carolyn was with her sister Lauren.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yes, Lauren was getting a ride to She was staying
with friends on Martha's Vineyard that weekend, and they were
going to drop Lauren in Martha's Vineyard and then had
Tyana's for Rory's wedding next day.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
She was really upset and angry at John. Do you
know if she had that conversation with him, or was
that your only knowledge of her the agreement she thought
she had made with him. I don't.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
I don't have any knowledge of the conversation that she
had with John. I just I just know what she
said to me that night.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
When you heard that. What was your reaction, you know, Katie,
at the time, I did. It didn't register with me
because I was so I was.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Trying so hard to keep her calm and to make
sure that she was okay, and to try and find
out as much as I could. And like I said,
it hadn't really registered with me yet that they were gone.
I just I didn't. I really didn't think they were gone.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Did you have any dealings with Carolyn and Lauren's mother
after that?

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah. We stayed in touch for a few years, and
then you know, life starts to happen and go on.
And I think for Anne Freeman, it was difficult for
her to stay in touch with us, with her friend,
with Carolyn's friends, and with you know, John's friends and
people that she knew, because it was a reminder, and
I think that had to be really difficult for her.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Was she angry at him? I would be furious. I
think I'm sure she was. I can't see how she
wouldn't be. I can't imagine any mother not being angry
with the person who was flying the plane in that situation.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
How could you not be?

Speaker 1 (50:05):
In the book, it makes pretty clear that maybe John
shouldn't have been flying that plane that night, that it
was late, that it got dark and foggy, and as
he turned into the ocean after hugging the coastline on
the flight, that he needed to rely on instruments, and

(50:28):
yet he hadn't had enough instrument training. Apparently, according to
reports after the crash, he'd only completed fifty percent of
formal instrument training. So was he being irresponsible that night?
I hate to say that, because no, I understand. Here
to defend himself.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Yeah, I understand, and I think I think what my
take and I'm not an expert, but I think what
my take on it was was that the intention was
always to fly at a certain time and leave at
a certain time and get there at a certain time.
And I don't think John intentionally went into the situation

(51:09):
thinking I don't care what the weather is, I don't
care what I don't think that that was his mindset. Ever.
I think that as the circumstances unfolded, he found himself
in that situation. And I know that he did check
the weather always before he left, he checked a website
called Pilot Brief that would give detailed updated information on

(51:33):
the weather for pilots. And I think by the time
he got to the airport, and probably even after he
took off, or shortly before he took off, the weather
situation had turned into something that was dangerous.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Carolyn Bessett was somewhat vilified for her role in making
John late in the aftermath of the crash. Do you
feel like she was treated unfairly.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Well, I think it's ridiculous to think that Carolyn was
responsible for that.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I mean, it wasn't that sort of circulating.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, it was something about matching a swatch to a
dress and nail polish. Carolyn would never something about lavender
nail polish. First of all, Carolyn would never wear left
or nail polish.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
But that aside.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
They all left at the same time, Carolyn, you know,
I called her a car at the same time to
pick her up. At the same time Lauren and John
were leaving Manhattan, So it's not like anyone got to
the airport and was waiting for someone else. They all
arrived around the same time. The traffic was hllacious by
the time they left, and I think that the weather

(52:44):
had started to turn. But it wasn't clear when he
got to the airport and when he was ready to
take off that the weather had gotten so bad it
wasn't clear to him. But Carolyn being late, she wasn't late.
They all arrived around the same time.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Why do you think that happened? Was that a continuation
of sort of the resentment some people had toward her,
or that she was cramping his style, or you know,
I don't know where did that come from.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
I don't know if it's that, or if it's that
people felt like there needed to be a reason because
it seemed so unimaginable, it seemed so heartbreaking, and for
it just to have been an accident sometimes is not
enough for people.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
So there needs to be well, if this hadn't happened.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
I mean, we all do that circumstances in our lives,
you know, we look back and say, well, if only
I had done this, or if only I had done that,
or maybe it would have turned out better, maybe I
wouldn't have been in this situation. And I think people
need a reason why something like this happens because it's
so catastrophic.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Liz, several people in the book intimate that John and
Carolyn's marriage was not in a great place in the
last year or so before they were killed. From reading
and talking to people, what do you think about that assessment.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
Well, they were under an incredible amount of stress, you know,
in those last few months, right Anthony's death and pending death,
difficulties at George, trying to find funding, difficulties in the marriage,
and then John's also thinking about politics at the same time.

Speaker 5 (54:23):
So they were, right.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
From speaking to a lot of friends, they were going
through a difficult time. But you know what's so interesting
about them, and every time I write about them, is
that Carolyn gets on the plane, you know, and she
is going to the family wedding with John and makes
this gesture of reconciliation. And I think there was one
friend of John's who said this was pulled to us

(54:48):
by another friend that said that if somebody says that
they know what was going to happen in the marriage,
they're lying because even John and Carolyn didn't know.

Speaker 5 (54:56):
So I just try to keep an open.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
Mind, you know, as we were writing about it, and
the truth is, we don't know. But she makes a gesture,
a very big one, I think, to go on the
plane and to be at the family wedding, and that
was very significant.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Rose Marie, I think you're in probably the best position
to tell us about their relationship. What was going on
at that time.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I think they were having difficulties. As Liis mentioned, Anthony
was dying, there was the pressure from to find investors
for George magazine. They were looking to leave the city
they wanted. I mean, they were staying in the city,
but they were looking for a house outside the city
because they were talking about starting a family. And I
think that there were I mean, the way I look

(55:44):
at it, they had a couple of weeks of you know,
fighting and not being on the same page, but they
still were going to look at this this house outside
of New York. They were still they still wanted that
appointment at the real estate agent. And I think that
they the fact that they decided to do marriage counseling

(56:06):
was a sign that they wanted this to work, and
they wanted and I don't know that there's a marriage
that exists without difficulties, especially three years in with all
of the pressures that they had, including how public their
lives were. And I think they were trying to rain
things in and get on the same page. But yeah,

(56:27):
they were. It was difficult, you know, the last few
weeks were tumultuous and difficult, but they were together.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
What were their major differences in terms of how they
lived their lives. Was John more comfortable kind of in
the spotlight and Carolyn less so or what do you
think were the differences that were creating this strain.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
I think one of the major differences was that John
had this, oh, suck it up and get on with
it attitude, and Carolyn wanted to be heard and understood
and she wanted some empathy for what she was going through,
and John saw that as Oh, come on, people have
it so much more, you know, like your life's not

(57:13):
so bad, you know that kind of thing. I mean,
my husband does that to me. And I wanted to choke.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
I was gonna say, it sounds like a typical Yeah,
it kind of sounds like a Venus and Mars type thing.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Yes, it absolutely was. But it was also the fact
that I think what complicated it was that it was
frustrating because John had lived his whole life that way.
He didn't know it any other way. So even if
he wanted to be able to explain to her how
to deal with it, he didn't have a playbook because
he didn't know it any other way. And it was

(57:44):
frustrating to her because she wanted him to sort of
take her by the hand a little bit and say,
I get it, it's crazy.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
I wanted to add as you were talking, was I
was remembering, because one thing that surprised us as we
were doing these interviews is that we ended up talking
to some guys who work at a place called Croll Security.
And this is really at the end of John's life,
and they're looking for more security, and they actually speak
openly about wanting to have a family, and by John

(58:12):
never had security, and rose Aways said, right, because he
thought that that would attract more attention. So he doesn't
travel with any but there's they make a real serious
effort to they meet with this it's called Kroll Associates
or something.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
And then yes, they're a famous security company in New York.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
Yes, they were speaking with them. And then they also
went back to one of their colleagues at the DA's
office to possibly open up an investigation into some paparazzi
that have been following Carolyn.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
So they were taking real steps.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
And I don't know if you're talking about a family
talking about taking security. This is that very summer, so
you know they were they were also contemplating, you know,
lifestyle change, having a family. This is all happening at
the same time.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
So sad. Where do you think they would have bought
a house, Rose, Marie?

Speaker 3 (59:03):
They were looking outside the city. Near Sneeden's Landing was
one place they were looking, and then there were a
couple of other places I don't remember. There were I
think one or two other areas that they were looking
in outside the city. But one of the things about
Sneeden's Landing that was that they looked at because John
could kayak across the Hudson to the train and be

(59:25):
in the city, and they wanted to be near the water.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
He was such a jock. I remember when I did
that interview he rode his bike to the Today Show
studios and I was like, what.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
He He did that to all of the Robinhood benefits too,
where he would ride his bike and chain it up
and tuckfeedout and cod. He also rode his bike with
his roller blades on so he could have his roller
blades with him at the office, so he would ride
his bike with the roller blades on, and then not
not on his feet, no, no, on his feet. Really yeah,

(01:00:00):
I was actually trying to find a picture of that
for the book where he's riding his bike with his
rollerblades on.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
But you couldn't find it now, but I saw it.
If John and Carolyn were alive today, they would be
sixty four and fifty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Wow, it's so sad to me to hear that they
were thinking about starting a family and moving and embarking
on this new chapter in their lives despite all the
difficulties of being public figures talking to a security company
about the safety of their future children. What do you

(01:00:37):
think would have happened? How do you think their lives
would have unfolded in these twenty five years since their deaths.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
That's a really long answer, but I think, you know,
I think it's difficult to say and predict, but I
can't imagine what their lives and mind would have been
like with social media, that's for sure. That's one thing.
And the other thing is, you know, I think that
they were you know, we talked about the eq of
John and hers was just as off the charts as

(01:01:10):
his was, and I think that they would have, you know,
navigated their lives in a way that was manageable for
both of them.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Liz, do you think about what.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
If, how could you not think about what if, especially
in these times, you know. And I think I think
that John really represented a sort of an idealism and
as did his parents for a lot of people, and.

Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
Almost that seems.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
Like like a foreign idea now I don't really think
about right There's not a lot of idealism right now.
And I think John really loved his country. So just
as we wrote this book, you know, I did think.

Speaker 5 (01:01:48):
About that, and of course I think about what if.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
You know, he had this he just represented something so hopeful,
you know, something so hopeful that was attached to him,
like you felt good and you saw him. He was
seemed like such a good person, and he had a
real gift for friendship and a real empathy towards people.
And I think you know what Rose was saying about
going to the person in the corner of the room,

(01:02:11):
or whether it's visiting Mike Tyson in prison when no
one else will.

Speaker 5 (01:02:16):
So I do think about what if.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
And and he was a he represented a lot of hope,
and I think even as we wrote about him, I mean,
it was bittersweet to do this book, but.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
It made me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Hopeful in a way that that a person like him existed.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
That he was.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
I really felt that he was a really good soul
and a good person.

Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
I hope that comes through.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
The book is called JFK. Junior, An intimate oral biography
Rosemary Trencio and Liz McNeil. Thank you both for talking
to me about it. It's a real trip down memory
laying in so many ways, and it's a very loving,
but honest I think portrayal of this man we lost

(01:03:05):
way too soon, and of course his beautiful wife and
her sister, and I always say I don't want Lauren
Beset to be forgotten because she was on the plane
that night too.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
Thank you so much, Katie, Thank you for having us,
and thank you for participating in the book.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out. You can leave a short message at six
oh nine five point two five to five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

(01:03:54):
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Couric, and Courtney LTZ. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

(01:04:14):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
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