November 24, 2021 • 25 mins
This Thanksgiving week, just a few days shy of what would have been Matthew Shepard’s 45th birthday, Katie considers his lasting legacy. In 1998, Matthew, a college freshman at the University of Wyoming, was the victim of a brutal hate crime. His death quickly became a national story and a clarion call for gay rights that inspired a whole new generation of LGBTQ activists. “Matthew Shepard was a huge turning point,” says Alan Cumming. On this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, Katie revisits the interviews she has done with Matthew’s parents, Judy and Dennis, over the years and examines the impact they have had on gay rights legislation as well as the huge cultural shift society, in general, has experienced over the decades. Jeff Mack, a friend of Matt’s from university, who is now the executive vice president of the Matthew Shepard Foundation guides us through Matt’s impact, explains why his death is considered the “second Stonewall,” and why his friend changes the course of his life forever. “It just means so much to be doing what I’m doing,” Mack says, “life has come full circle for me.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
You Know, when I looked back at my forty year
career in media, one of the things that stands out
to me is the seismic cultural shift we've seen for
the majority of my career, really into the last couple
of years. So much of the news has been filtered
(00:20):
through an incredibly narrow, mostly white sist mail lens, whether
it was the people who were interviewed, the questions that
were asked, or the people who asked them. Good morning,
this is Today. I'm Frank Mee d And here are
the headlines. Good morning, Here's what's happening. Here begins something New.
(00:41):
I'm Charles Calf and this is Wilt is here with
Maria Schreiber visiting is Today. It's going to have you, Maria.
Good evening, the CDs Evening News with Walter Tronka. This
is NBC Likely News with John Chance of All in
New York, Harry Reisner and Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather,
Sam Donaldson. I'm Frank Reynolds and I'm Howard K. Smith
in Washington. Good morning everyone, I'm Tom Brokaw on Today
(01:04):
with the newest member of the Today Family, Jane Pauli,
who comes to us from Indiana and Chicago. And as
I said earlier, any family would be happy to welcome
someone so bright and energetic and enterprising and just incidentally
pretty as well. Charlotte, do you agree with that? Yes,
I wish you were younger. You know, I ask you
not to do that. Yikes, Gene. Fortunately, some things have
(01:29):
changed since then, and not just for women. The activism
we've seen against racism in the wake of police brutality,
the push for pay equity across industries, the continued pressure
from the Me Too movement, the wave of lgbt Q
representation in so many arenas are all getting us to
(01:49):
a more inclusive, enlightened place. I reflected on these changes
in my memoir, and when I look back, there's one
interview for me that stands out up as a prime
example of how far we've come. Coming up in this
half hour, it was a crime that shocked the entire nation.
It was February. Matthew Shepard, a gay student at the
(02:13):
University of Wyoming, was found beaten and tied to a
fence last fall. A cyclist passing by said he resembled
a scarecrow. Shortly afterwards, Matthew Shephard died and now his
parents are talking for the first time. I interviewed Matthew's parents,
Judy and Dennis, on The Today Show. This was just
four months after their son was brutally beaten and left
(02:33):
for dead, four months after his death became a national
story and a clarion call for gay rights. What do
you think matt would have thought of all this because
to some he's he's become almost a martyr. Well, it's
a very frightening concept as a parent that your son
now becomes a martyr and a figure of public figure
(02:54):
for the world. He's just our son. We talked about
what matt was like, always a loving and kind, gentle
spirit who had respect for everyone's views, and how they
reacted when he told them he was gay. He was
our son. We would have accepted and loved him and
support him no matter what decisions he made. And then
having said that, was it a bit hard to accept
(03:16):
at all? You want to see your son or your
daughter uh have grandchildren so that the family tree continues.
It was hard to accept the fact that it stops here.
Listening to it now, I'm struck by how differently the
subject of having a gay child was treated back then.
(03:39):
I brought this up recently when I interviewed the Scottish
actor and queer icon Alan Cumming, pointing out how dated
this line of questioning feels now. I think it so
much actually has changed. And since you know and and
and then you cous Matthew Shepard was a huge turning point,
I think. And that was actually right when I first
came to New York. That's when I was doing cabaret,
(04:01):
remember it. But I think those things, those it's like,
it's like, you know, stuff pre me too. Stuff sounds
now so like how insane could we have put up
with all that? But actually what you're talking about when
you said that to him, that is very much how
people thought in those days. It's it does it is dated,
but it's it's not it's not offensive. It wasn't offensive.
(04:21):
I meant from any pace of offense. It's just really
interesting how things in certain areas sometimes changed so fast.
And thank God that we have got a generation of
young people who are coming up who don't I think
in the same way that we we weren't brought up
in the same way that we are who have grown
up with the possibility of otherness all around them. I
(04:45):
am so kind of heartened by the young when it
comes to lgbt Q acceptance. Matthew Shepard, as Alan Cumming
just said, was in many ways the turning point in
this country. He is gruesome. Death sounded the alarm and
inspired a whole new generation of activists to fight for
(05:06):
the equality and protections the LGBT community deserved. I've been
lucky enough to interview the Shepherds in the years since.
In fact, Judy came on my talk show. In day
to day it changes. Sometimes it seems like it was
just yesterday, as you said, or a hundred years ago.
It's every day is a brand new day. Still, after
(05:28):
fifteen years, it never gets easier for those who loved
matt His life and death impacted so many, and on
today's episode this Thanksgiving week, just a few days shy
of what would have been his forty five birthday, we
explore Matthew Shepherd's legacy through one of those people who knew, loved,
(05:52):
and was inspired by him. I will apologize if there's
times that I get terry and I cry, because it
just means so much to me to be doing what
I'm doing, and um, sometimes I get a little bit
of overwhelmed because life has come full circle for me.
Jeff Matt was a friend of Matt's at the University
of Wyoming. They met through the LGBT There wasn't a
(06:13):
queue yet group on campus. The LGBT group was just
our great way of all getting together and knowing each other.
And Matt was such a nice, sensitive person, super smart,
would give you the shirt off his back, was just
always just so so kind um, and someone you always
(06:36):
wanted to go have a beer with, or you know,
hang out with, or talk politics with, and you know,
wanting both wanting to be in politics. It was It
was fun to be able to talk about that today.
Jeff is the newly appointed executive vice president of the
Matthew Shepard Foundation, an lgbt Q education, outreach and advocacy
(06:56):
organization started by Judy and Dennis. I cried in every
interview for this job, and I said, I said to
everybody's like, I don't cry during job interviews, but this
just means so much to me, and carrying on his
legacy just means so much. I grew up in Wyoming.
I grew up in a town of a eighty people
(07:17):
called Chugwater, Wyoming, and I grew up ten miles outside
of that on a farm, and gay wasn't something that
people really knew, and if it was, it was something
that was was very, very bad. And uh. I went
off to school at the University of Laramie, very University
of Wyoming, Laramie, and was not out. I was a
(07:39):
fraternity member, and I left to go work for my
fraternity on the East Coast and came back and was
admissions council. So I was about three three and a
half years older than Matt, and you know, I was young,
and I joined the LGBT R. I was a part
of the LGBT group because I couldn't join it because
I was not a student. But I was a young
professional and that was my That was my outlet to
(08:02):
to be gay. And getting to know Matt through the
LGBT group and having that safe space was my only
outlet while I was in in Laramie. Wasn't out to
my family, wasn't out to anybody. And when um, when
Matt died, I was actually on a work trip and
one of my colleagues got sick and couldn't go on
(08:24):
the recruiting trip, and so we drove up to Jackson
that week to do a recruiting trip for the university.
And uh, our boss Kathy called one morning and was
the morning that Matt was found. Sorry, it just I mean,
twenty plus years later, it just still gets me. And um,
(08:45):
Kathy goes with you, please sit down, And so I
sat down and Cathy told me that Matt had been
found tied to a fence post and was in critical
condition in Fort Collins and she said come home now.
And it was a couple of days later that he
then died. Uh. So then through that entire next year,
(09:08):
it was all of us trying to just figure out
what was going on with our lives. We really bonded together.
The group really tried to start doing some activism and
so that really at that moment, gave me the introspect
to go is admissions where they need to be. And
you look at so many of Matt's friends and we've
(09:30):
all kind of gone in our own paths. I took
the path of I was just like, I have to
save the world. I have to do something. Jeff left
the small town of Laramie, Wyoming and his admissions job
at the university. He moved to big cities Denver first,
then l a and Washington, d C. Weaving his passion
(09:52):
for lgbt Q activism with the nonprofit World. He worked
for the Human Rights Campaign, the Outfest film Fest, Stable,
the American Red Cross, and the Kennedy Center for the
Performing Arts. The thing that has happened through all of this,
Judy kind of became my adopted virtual mom. Judy has
(10:14):
seen me grow as you know, this kid who's too
scared to be in the Larmie Project because he didn't
want people to think he was gay, to see me
grow as a professional. I wasn't too much older than
Matt Um. It always breaks my heart thinking that if
I had been there that week, would I have got
out for a drink with him? You know, would we've
(10:37):
would would would something else have been different? You know?
I used to go karaoke at the fireside and you
know it was it was one of those places that
we would go to and we never felt in danger
until that happened. I was I had never been called
faggott or anything like that. Um, And so Larmie changed
(10:57):
in a way and that's one of the reasons why
I decided to leave, because I needed to see the
big city, and I wanted to go out and change
the world. And coming back here and seeing what the
foundation has done, and Judy and Dennis just going and
talking to people has really put a face to it
and has helped people understand that being an ally is very,
(11:20):
very important. Still to this day. Judy and Dennis launched
the Matthew Shepherd Foundation on their son's birthday December one,
and in the twenty three years since, the organization and
Judy and Dennis have had a huge impact on legislation,
lobbying for marriage equality, over turney, don't Ask, Don't tell,
(11:43):
fighting job discrimination policies, and most profoundly, this afternoon, I
signed in the law but Matthew Shepard and James Burd Jr.
Hate Crimes Conventional, a bill that was also named for
James Bird Jr. A Texas man who was brutally killed
by three white supremacists just a few months before Matthew's murder.
(12:07):
Judy and Dennis work so hard to get the Hate
Crimes Prevention Act, and that was two thousand and nine,
and so that took ten years ten to get This
is the culmination of a struggle that has lasted more
than a decade. Time and again, we faced opposition, time
and again the measure was defeated or delayed. Time and again,
(12:29):
we've been reminded of the difficulty of building a nation
in which we're all free to live and love as
we see fit. What the Act did was greatly expand
the government's ability to prosecute federal hate crimes, including now
for the first time, those crimes motivated by a victims
(12:49):
sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. It's passage twelve years
ago was historic, and it still stands as a land
mark piece of legislation when we come back. How Matthew
Shepard inspired a new generation of activists. By the nineteen nineties,
(13:19):
the culture Wars were raging. Everything from abortion to religion
to women in the military sparked vicious debate, but none
more so than gay rights. The agenda that Clinton and
Clinton would impose on America, abortion on demand, a litmus
(13:40):
test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools,
women in combat units. The tension at the time is
pretty well represented and pap you can inspire e speech
at the Republican National Convention. There is a religious war
going on in this country. It is a cultural war
(14:04):
as critical to the kind of nation we shall be
as the Cold War itself. For this war is for
the soul of America. We had in that struggle for
the soul of America. Clinton and Clinton are on the
other side, and George Bush is on our side. Meanwhile,
(14:25):
I can't even say the word. Why can't I say
the word? I mean, why can't I just say? Gay
life was making its way into the nation's living rooms
like never before. I'm gay. You know, Ellen came out
and had repercussions and lost her show when matt was killed.
(14:46):
I think Will and Grace came out just a couple
of months before that. It's not that not that big
a deal. You just jumped into Jack's arms. Last time
a woman did that. A woman has never done that.
We we weren't seeing our images on mainstream TV. We
were either a stereotype or an add on character. So
(15:07):
what smooth Still, But Matthew's death in many ways turned
the tide culturally and politically. You know, I hate to
always say it, and I think people have said it,
but Matt's death was the second Stone Wall, and it
really invigorated everyone to really stand up for themselves. You
(15:30):
saw something that was so tragic and so hate filled,
and it just rallied the community in a way that
hadn't been seen in a long long time. And you know,
you often see such a huge tragedy will will rally communities,
and I think it's those kind of things that awaken
(15:51):
people and shock people and then they get shocked into action.
And I think everyone got shocked into action by that
good evening. Matthew Shepherd was not a cause, He was
not an issue. Matthew Shepherd was a young man who
had a future and was denied that future. All the
(16:12):
candlelight vigels, the best tribute we can get to Matthew
is to cherish life every day. It really brought a
lot of allies out. I am a wife, heterosexual, raised
as a Catholic Republican, and I am so ashamed of
my people right now. It brought a lot of people
(16:35):
who you wouldn't necessarily anticipate would be an activist or
would go out and you know, March, I am so
piste off. I can't stop crying. And it just hit
(16:59):
me why I am so devastated by it. It's because
this is what I was trying to stop. This is
exactly why I did what I did. It happened all
over the country, it happened all over the world. It
really brought attention to you know, this is this is
a problem, and the you know, everyone's like they're asking
(17:22):
for special rights, and you know, we were like, no,
we're asking for for equal rights. And that helped the
allies get behind saying you know, yeah, they need these
protections and they need this. And it really just created
an army of young activists that spread out and and
shows the nonprofit world to to go. And I have
(17:44):
so many friends that decided to do it right at
the same time as me, and and matt was one
of the underlying issues, or one of the motivations for
for everybody to do that, to get out there and
make an impact, because it could have in any one
of us. We'll be right back. Thanks to the work
(18:17):
of organizations like the Matthew Shepherd Foundation and dedicated activists
inspired by his life and death, the last twenty years
have seen tremendous strides for the LGBTQ community. April of
two thousand Vermont made same sex marriage legal. One of
the big stories this week is Vermont. Vermont, of all places,
(18:41):
has pretty much okayed gay marriage. In two thousand nine,
the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird Hate Crimes Prevention Act
becomes law two thousand eleven. Don't Ask, Don't Tell was
over in two historic breaking news coming out of Washington today,
the Supreme Court strikes down the defensive Mary Jacked DOMA,
which became law nineteen nineties six. This is a major,
(19:05):
broadly written opinion which strikes down the law on the
ground that it discriminates against gay people. In President Obama
acknowledge the LGBT hugh community in his State of the
Union address. That's why we defend free speech and advocate
for political prisoners, and condemn the persecution of women or
(19:28):
religious minorities, or people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.
We do these things not only because they are likely.
In June of and I remember exactly where I was.
I was in a conference room in Boston when the
Supreme Court declare the same sex was a constitutional right.
All of us cried. It's profound. The five to four vote,
in many ways reflecting the huge societal shift of the
(19:50):
last twenty years. And then in the military will allow
transgender Americans to serve. Opening in the military may have
seen stonewall and became a national monument. In more than
a LGBD candidates were elected into office in the term elections.
Once Tuesday Night's victors are sworn in, for the first
(20:12):
time in history, the United States will have more than
a thousand LGBTQ officials serving at once. And then you know,
we started seeing more gay, lesbian, bisexual people on on TV.
The original show was fighting the tolerance, our fight dis acceptance. Hey, world,
(20:34):
there's a new power couple on the horizon cam and
Mitch kitch. No, that sounds weird, ma'am. We'll find it.
I wish I knew how to quit you. I'm not.
Don't get pregnant because I don't like having sex with men.
So anyway, I'm by. You're wearing a wedding dress to
(20:55):
my wedding. This is not a wedding dress. It's a
white floor link gown. It's very difference. Did it come
with a vell, No, it came in a head dress.
What I've been doing the show for ten years. I
still have the same haircut. I wear the same ten
dollar blazers Donald's. If you didn't like me, then you're
really probably not gonna like me now because I'm hosting
S and O and I'm like, so gay, dude, this
(21:21):
is Moonlight, the best picture, and I am here today
because I am gay. And now you know, later on
we're seeing more transgender people on on TV. Listen, doc,
I need my dosage. I've given five years, eighty thou
dollars and my freedom for this. I'm finally who I'm
(21:41):
supposed to be. Do you understand I can't go back.
I look at it this way. Brush always telling a
lie slive eyes whole life about who he is, and uh,
I can't do that any longer. Are you? Are you
saying that you're gonna start dress sing up like a lady?
All of my whole life, I've been dressing off like
(22:09):
a man. This is me. It's the little it's you know,
getting out of the shower and the towels around your
waist and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and
you're just like there I am today. It may be
a different world, but unfortunately the work to protect the
(22:31):
lgbt Q community must continue. In legislative session, over two
hundred and fifty potentially harmful lgbtach related bills were introduced
throughout the country, over half of which were anti trans
That is more than has ever been introduced in the
(22:53):
history of America. And so and I don't I don't
think people know that. And I think if people knew that,
they want to pay a little bit more attention. So,
you know, we we have to stay virgins. I'm hopeful,
I'm optimistic, but have to be vigilant. What would life
look like for the LGBT community if we didn't have
(23:15):
that second wave and that second stone wall. You know,
I would prefer to have Matt here, But thank God
something good came out of it. Being here is humbling
and it is inspiring, and I just want to do
right for the organization and really carry on the legacy
(23:35):
for for Matt. Thank you to my guest Jeff Mac
and to everyone at the Matthew Shepard Foundation. Next week,
on next Question, we're cooking up something special. I'm not
a podcast host. This is I'm moonlighting. This is not
(23:57):
my full time gig. Alison Roman is here and she's
playing me. I'm going to take a quick breather from
my whirlwind tour, But don't worry. I'll be back before
you know it, sharing my favorite moments from my cross
country trip. But until then, you're in good hands with
our guest host, the chef and cookbook author Alison Roman,
(24:17):
so stay tuned. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a
production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The
executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising
producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clemens, Adriana Fasio,
(24:39):
and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by
Derrek Clemens. For more information about today's episode, or to
sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go
to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me
at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(25:02):
your favorite shows.
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
You Know, when I looked back at my forty year
career in media, one of the things that stands out
to me is the seismic cultural shift we've seen for
the majority of my career, really into the last couple
of years. So much of the news has been filtered
(00:20):
through an incredibly narrow, mostly white sist mail lens, whether
it was the people who were interviewed, the questions that
were asked, or the people who asked them. Good morning,
this is Today. I'm Frank Mee d And here are
the headlines. Good morning, Here's what's happening. Here begins something New.
(00:41):
I'm Charles Calf and this is Wilt is here with
Maria Schreiber visiting is Today. It's going to have you, Maria.
Good evening, the CDs Evening News with Walter Tronka. This
is NBC Likely News with John Chance of All in
New York, Harry Reisner and Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather,
Sam Donaldson. I'm Frank Reynolds and I'm Howard K. Smith
in Washington. Good morning everyone, I'm Tom Brokaw on Today
(01:04):
with the newest member of the Today Family, Jane Pauli,
who comes to us from Indiana and Chicago. And as
I said earlier, any family would be happy to welcome
someone so bright and energetic and enterprising and just incidentally
pretty as well. Charlotte, do you agree with that? Yes,
I wish you were younger. You know, I ask you
not to do that. Yikes, Gene. Fortunately, some things have
(01:29):
changed since then, and not just for women. The activism
we've seen against racism in the wake of police brutality,
the push for pay equity across industries, the continued pressure
from the Me Too movement, the wave of lgbt Q
representation in so many arenas are all getting us to
(01:49):
a more inclusive, enlightened place. I reflected on these changes
in my memoir, and when I look back, there's one
interview for me that stands out up as a prime
example of how far we've come. Coming up in this
half hour, it was a crime that shocked the entire nation.
It was February. Matthew Shepard, a gay student at the
(02:13):
University of Wyoming, was found beaten and tied to a
fence last fall. A cyclist passing by said he resembled
a scarecrow. Shortly afterwards, Matthew Shephard died and now his
parents are talking for the first time. I interviewed Matthew's parents,
Judy and Dennis, on The Today Show. This was just
four months after their son was brutally beaten and left
(02:33):
for dead, four months after his death became a national
story and a clarion call for gay rights. What do
you think matt would have thought of all this because
to some he's he's become almost a martyr. Well, it's
a very frightening concept as a parent that your son
now becomes a martyr and a figure of public figure
(02:54):
for the world. He's just our son. We talked about
what matt was like, always a loving and kind, gentle
spirit who had respect for everyone's views, and how they
reacted when he told them he was gay. He was
our son. We would have accepted and loved him and
support him no matter what decisions he made. And then
having said that, was it a bit hard to accept
(03:16):
at all? You want to see your son or your
daughter uh have grandchildren so that the family tree continues.
It was hard to accept the fact that it stops here.
Listening to it now, I'm struck by how differently the
subject of having a gay child was treated back then.
(03:39):
I brought this up recently when I interviewed the Scottish
actor and queer icon Alan Cumming, pointing out how dated
this line of questioning feels now. I think it so
much actually has changed. And since you know and and
and then you cous Matthew Shepard was a huge turning point,
I think. And that was actually right when I first
came to New York. That's when I was doing cabaret,
(04:01):
remember it. But I think those things, those it's like,
it's like, you know, stuff pre me too. Stuff sounds
now so like how insane could we have put up
with all that? But actually what you're talking about when
you said that to him, that is very much how
people thought in those days. It's it does it is dated,
but it's it's not it's not offensive. It wasn't offensive.
(04:21):
I meant from any pace of offense. It's just really
interesting how things in certain areas sometimes changed so fast.
And thank God that we have got a generation of
young people who are coming up who don't I think
in the same way that we we weren't brought up
in the same way that we are who have grown
up with the possibility of otherness all around them. I
(04:45):
am so kind of heartened by the young when it
comes to lgbt Q acceptance. Matthew Shepard, as Alan Cumming
just said, was in many ways the turning point in
this country. He is gruesome. Death sounded the alarm and
inspired a whole new generation of activists to fight for
(05:06):
the equality and protections the LGBT community deserved. I've been
lucky enough to interview the Shepherds in the years since.
In fact, Judy came on my talk show. In day
to day it changes. Sometimes it seems like it was
just yesterday, as you said, or a hundred years ago.
It's every day is a brand new day. Still, after
(05:28):
fifteen years, it never gets easier for those who loved
matt His life and death impacted so many, and on
today's episode this Thanksgiving week, just a few days shy
of what would have been his forty five birthday, we
explore Matthew Shepherd's legacy through one of those people who knew, loved,
(05:52):
and was inspired by him. I will apologize if there's
times that I get terry and I cry, because it
just means so much to me to be doing what
I'm doing, and um, sometimes I get a little bit
of overwhelmed because life has come full circle for me.
Jeff Matt was a friend of Matt's at the University
of Wyoming. They met through the LGBT There wasn't a
(06:13):
queue yet group on campus. The LGBT group was just
our great way of all getting together and knowing each other.
And Matt was such a nice, sensitive person, super smart,
would give you the shirt off his back, was just
always just so so kind um, and someone you always
(06:36):
wanted to go have a beer with, or you know,
hang out with, or talk politics with, and you know,
wanting both wanting to be in politics. It was It
was fun to be able to talk about that today.
Jeff is the newly appointed executive vice president of the
Matthew Shepard Foundation, an lgbt Q education, outreach and advocacy
(06:56):
organization started by Judy and Dennis. I cried in every
interview for this job, and I said, I said to
everybody's like, I don't cry during job interviews, but this
just means so much to me, and carrying on his
legacy just means so much. I grew up in Wyoming.
I grew up in a town of a eighty people
(07:17):
called Chugwater, Wyoming, and I grew up ten miles outside
of that on a farm, and gay wasn't something that
people really knew, and if it was, it was something
that was was very, very bad. And uh. I went
off to school at the University of Laramie, very University
of Wyoming, Laramie, and was not out. I was a
(07:39):
fraternity member, and I left to go work for my
fraternity on the East Coast and came back and was
admissions council. So I was about three three and a
half years older than Matt, and you know, I was young,
and I joined the LGBT R. I was a part
of the LGBT group because I couldn't join it because
I was not a student. But I was a young
professional and that was my That was my outlet to
(08:02):
to be gay. And getting to know Matt through the
LGBT group and having that safe space was my only
outlet while I was in in Laramie. Wasn't out to
my family, wasn't out to anybody. And when um, when
Matt died, I was actually on a work trip and
one of my colleagues got sick and couldn't go on
(08:24):
the recruiting trip, and so we drove up to Jackson
that week to do a recruiting trip for the university.
And uh, our boss Kathy called one morning and was
the morning that Matt was found. Sorry, it just I mean,
twenty plus years later, it just still gets me. And um,
(08:45):
Kathy goes with you, please sit down, And so I
sat down and Cathy told me that Matt had been
found tied to a fence post and was in critical
condition in Fort Collins and she said come home now.
And it was a couple of days later that he
then died. Uh. So then through that entire next year,
(09:08):
it was all of us trying to just figure out
what was going on with our lives. We really bonded together.
The group really tried to start doing some activism and
so that really at that moment, gave me the introspect
to go is admissions where they need to be. And
you look at so many of Matt's friends and we've
(09:30):
all kind of gone in our own paths. I took
the path of I was just like, I have to
save the world. I have to do something. Jeff left
the small town of Laramie, Wyoming and his admissions job
at the university. He moved to big cities Denver first,
then l a and Washington, d C. Weaving his passion
(09:52):
for lgbt Q activism with the nonprofit World. He worked
for the Human Rights Campaign, the Outfest film Fest, Stable,
the American Red Cross, and the Kennedy Center for the
Performing Arts. The thing that has happened through all of this,
Judy kind of became my adopted virtual mom. Judy has
(10:14):
seen me grow as you know, this kid who's too
scared to be in the Larmie Project because he didn't
want people to think he was gay, to see me
grow as a professional. I wasn't too much older than
Matt Um. It always breaks my heart thinking that if
I had been there that week, would I have got
out for a drink with him? You know, would we've
(10:37):
would would would something else have been different? You know?
I used to go karaoke at the fireside and you
know it was it was one of those places that
we would go to and we never felt in danger
until that happened. I was I had never been called
faggott or anything like that. Um, And so Larmie changed
(10:57):
in a way and that's one of the reasons why
I decided to leave, because I needed to see the
big city, and I wanted to go out and change
the world. And coming back here and seeing what the
foundation has done, and Judy and Dennis just going and
talking to people has really put a face to it
and has helped people understand that being an ally is very,
(11:20):
very important. Still to this day. Judy and Dennis launched
the Matthew Shepherd Foundation on their son's birthday December one,
and in the twenty three years since, the organization and
Judy and Dennis have had a huge impact on legislation,
lobbying for marriage equality, over turney, don't Ask, Don't tell,
(11:43):
fighting job discrimination policies, and most profoundly, this afternoon, I
signed in the law but Matthew Shepard and James Burd Jr.
Hate Crimes Conventional, a bill that was also named for
James Bird Jr. A Texas man who was brutally killed
by three white supremacists just a few months before Matthew's murder.
(12:07):
Judy and Dennis work so hard to get the Hate
Crimes Prevention Act, and that was two thousand and nine,
and so that took ten years ten to get This
is the culmination of a struggle that has lasted more
than a decade. Time and again, we faced opposition, time
and again the measure was defeated or delayed. Time and again,
(12:29):
we've been reminded of the difficulty of building a nation
in which we're all free to live and love as
we see fit. What the Act did was greatly expand
the government's ability to prosecute federal hate crimes, including now
for the first time, those crimes motivated by a victims
(12:49):
sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. It's passage twelve years
ago was historic, and it still stands as a land
mark piece of legislation when we come back. How Matthew
Shepard inspired a new generation of activists. By the nineteen nineties,
(13:19):
the culture Wars were raging. Everything from abortion to religion
to women in the military sparked vicious debate, but none
more so than gay rights. The agenda that Clinton and
Clinton would impose on America, abortion on demand, a litmus
(13:40):
test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools,
women in combat units. The tension at the time is
pretty well represented and pap you can inspire e speech
at the Republican National Convention. There is a religious war
going on in this country. It is a cultural war
(14:04):
as critical to the kind of nation we shall be
as the Cold War itself. For this war is for
the soul of America. We had in that struggle for
the soul of America. Clinton and Clinton are on the
other side, and George Bush is on our side. Meanwhile,
(14:25):
I can't even say the word. Why can't I say
the word? I mean, why can't I just say? Gay
life was making its way into the nation's living rooms
like never before. I'm gay. You know, Ellen came out
and had repercussions and lost her show when matt was killed.
(14:46):
I think Will and Grace came out just a couple
of months before that. It's not that not that big
a deal. You just jumped into Jack's arms. Last time
a woman did that. A woman has never done that.
We we weren't seeing our images on mainstream TV. We
were either a stereotype or an add on character. So
(15:07):
what smooth Still, But Matthew's death in many ways turned
the tide culturally and politically. You know, I hate to
always say it, and I think people have said it,
but Matt's death was the second Stone Wall, and it
really invigorated everyone to really stand up for themselves. You
(15:30):
saw something that was so tragic and so hate filled,
and it just rallied the community in a way that
hadn't been seen in a long long time. And you know,
you often see such a huge tragedy will will rally communities,
and I think it's those kind of things that awaken
(15:51):
people and shock people and then they get shocked into action.
And I think everyone got shocked into action by that
good evening. Matthew Shepherd was not a cause, He was
not an issue. Matthew Shepherd was a young man who
had a future and was denied that future. All the
(16:12):
candlelight vigels, the best tribute we can get to Matthew
is to cherish life every day. It really brought a
lot of allies out. I am a wife, heterosexual, raised
as a Catholic Republican, and I am so ashamed of
my people right now. It brought a lot of people
(16:35):
who you wouldn't necessarily anticipate would be an activist or
would go out and you know, March, I am so
piste off. I can't stop crying. And it just hit
(16:59):
me why I am so devastated by it. It's because
this is what I was trying to stop. This is
exactly why I did what I did. It happened all
over the country, it happened all over the world. It
really brought attention to you know, this is this is
a problem, and the you know, everyone's like they're asking
(17:22):
for special rights, and you know, we were like, no,
we're asking for for equal rights. And that helped the
allies get behind saying you know, yeah, they need these
protections and they need this. And it really just created
an army of young activists that spread out and and
shows the nonprofit world to to go. And I have
(17:44):
so many friends that decided to do it right at
the same time as me, and and matt was one
of the underlying issues, or one of the motivations for
for everybody to do that, to get out there and
make an impact, because it could have in any one
of us. We'll be right back. Thanks to the work
(18:17):
of organizations like the Matthew Shepherd Foundation and dedicated activists
inspired by his life and death, the last twenty years
have seen tremendous strides for the LGBTQ community. April of
two thousand Vermont made same sex marriage legal. One of
the big stories this week is Vermont. Vermont, of all places,
(18:41):
has pretty much okayed gay marriage. In two thousand nine,
the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird Hate Crimes Prevention Act
becomes law two thousand eleven. Don't Ask, Don't Tell was
over in two historic breaking news coming out of Washington today,
the Supreme Court strikes down the defensive Mary Jacked DOMA,
which became law nineteen nineties six. This is a major,
(19:05):
broadly written opinion which strikes down the law on the
ground that it discriminates against gay people. In President Obama
acknowledge the LGBT hugh community in his State of the
Union address. That's why we defend free speech and advocate
for political prisoners, and condemn the persecution of women or
(19:28):
religious minorities, or people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.
We do these things not only because they are likely.
In June of and I remember exactly where I was.
I was in a conference room in Boston when the
Supreme Court declare the same sex was a constitutional right.
All of us cried. It's profound. The five to four vote,
in many ways reflecting the huge societal shift of the
(19:50):
last twenty years. And then in the military will allow
transgender Americans to serve. Opening in the military may have
seen stonewall and became a national monument. In more than
a LGBD candidates were elected into office in the term elections.
Once Tuesday Night's victors are sworn in, for the first
(20:12):
time in history, the United States will have more than
a thousand LGBTQ officials serving at once. And then you know,
we started seeing more gay, lesbian, bisexual people on on TV.
The original show was fighting the tolerance, our fight dis acceptance. Hey, world,
(20:34):
there's a new power couple on the horizon cam and
Mitch kitch. No, that sounds weird, ma'am. We'll find it.
I wish I knew how to quit you. I'm not.
Don't get pregnant because I don't like having sex with men.
So anyway, I'm by. You're wearing a wedding dress to
(20:55):
my wedding. This is not a wedding dress. It's a
white floor link gown. It's very difference. Did it come
with a vell, No, it came in a head dress.
What I've been doing the show for ten years. I
still have the same haircut. I wear the same ten
dollar blazers Donald's. If you didn't like me, then you're
really probably not gonna like me now because I'm hosting
S and O and I'm like, so gay, dude, this
(21:21):
is Moonlight, the best picture, and I am here today
because I am gay. And now you know, later on
we're seeing more transgender people on on TV. Listen, doc,
I need my dosage. I've given five years, eighty thou
dollars and my freedom for this. I'm finally who I'm
(21:41):
supposed to be. Do you understand I can't go back.
I look at it this way. Brush always telling a
lie slive eyes whole life about who he is, and uh,
I can't do that any longer. Are you? Are you
saying that you're gonna start dress sing up like a lady?
All of my whole life, I've been dressing off like
(22:09):
a man. This is me. It's the little it's you know,
getting out of the shower and the towels around your
waist and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and
you're just like there I am today. It may be
a different world, but unfortunately the work to protect the
(22:31):
lgbt Q community must continue. In legislative session, over two
hundred and fifty potentially harmful lgbtach related bills were introduced
throughout the country, over half of which were anti trans
That is more than has ever been introduced in the
(22:53):
history of America. And so and I don't I don't
think people know that. And I think if people knew that,
they want to pay a little bit more attention. So,
you know, we we have to stay virgins. I'm hopeful,
I'm optimistic, but have to be vigilant. What would life
look like for the LGBT community if we didn't have
(23:15):
that second wave and that second stone wall. You know,
I would prefer to have Matt here, But thank God
something good came out of it. Being here is humbling
and it is inspiring, and I just want to do
right for the organization and really carry on the legacy
(23:35):
for for Matt. Thank you to my guest Jeff Mac
and to everyone at the Matthew Shepard Foundation. Next week,
on next Question, we're cooking up something special. I'm not
a podcast host. This is I'm moonlighting. This is not
(23:57):
my full time gig. Alison Roman is here and she's
playing me. I'm going to take a quick breather from
my whirlwind tour, But don't worry. I'll be back before
you know it, sharing my favorite moments from my cross
country trip. But until then, you're in good hands with
our guest host, the chef and cookbook author Alison Roman,
(24:17):
so stay tuned. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a
production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The
executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising
producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clemens, Adriana Fasio,
(24:39):
and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by
Derrek Clemens. For more information about today's episode, or to
sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go
to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me
at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(25:02):
your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
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