December 12, 2019 • 44 mins
If you don’t already know Greta Gerwig, then get ready to have a new hero by the end of this episode. Greta is an actress turned writer/director who is taking Hollywood by storm. Her first attempt at writing and directing resulted in the 2017 hit “Lady Bird,” and her career has only skyrocketed from there. In this interview, Katie and Greta bond over their mutual love of the book which inspired her latest project, a remake of the much loved Louisa May Alcott classic “Little Women.” While the film stars some major Hollywood heavyweights — Saoirse Ronan, Emma Watson, Laura Dern and Meryl Streep, to name a few— it’s Greta’s work behind the camera that brings a new sparkle to this classic tale. At a time when accolades for female directors are few and far between — for the fifth year in a row there were zero women nominated for a Golden Globe for directing — Greta’s voice is one that demands to be heard.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I
Heart Radio and Katie Couric Media. Hi, everyone, welcome to
Next Question. I'm Katie Kuric. I can already tell that
this moment in my life I'll look back on and say,
what the hell is I think? Greta Gerwig is a
modern version of a Hollywood triple threat. With films like
(00:22):
Frances Ha and twenties Century Women, She's proved to be
a formidable actress, but since she's turned her focus to
behind the camera, she's become one of the most successful
writer directors in the business. Her last film, Lady Bird,
was heralded by critics and audiences alike, including me. Gretta
once again is exploring the complexities of female relationships and
(00:46):
ambition with her new adaptations of Little Women, based on
the Louisa may Alcock classic that so many of us
remember from our Childhood's Little Women is a love letter
to all of us who break the shackles of invention
and write our own stories. So my next question is
what is gretti Girlwig story? And ken Hollywood handle it?
(01:10):
You realized you were a great storyteller because of a
very funny incident in seventh grade. Oh god, yes, wow,
you really we really did our research gradish, I know,
Oh my god, yes, yes, Well I had an incident
in seventh grade. It was a new school, uh in California,
(01:31):
you know, Junior High is its own seventh and eighth grade.
They're like, let's take you at your most awkward two years,
put you in a group that's much bigger and scarier,
and then just see how you do. Which I don't
know why they do that. That's very Darwinian, isn't it. Yeah,
it really is. I have this visual memory of walking
in and knowing my classmates from elementary school, and I
(01:53):
felt like everyone was just like, spend for yourself, we'll
see you in high school. Like it was. It was
definitely the Lord of the Flies. But I was taking
a math test, a placement test, and I didn't know
was I allowed to get up? Was I allowed to
say I had to go the bathroom? And so I
didn't and I was anyway anyway, I ended up peeing
(02:15):
my pants during the math test. But actually the true
thing that happened, which I was the girl next to
me saw it happen, and she took off her sweatshirt
and gave it to me, and she was like put
this around her, raised and go run to the nurse's office,
like she took care of me. And I loved that girl,
I know. But isn't it interesting that act of kindness
(02:38):
but entirely new lends on what might have been a
soul crushing experience for you? Right yeah, I mean it
wasn't my favorite experience. I'm not saying it was, but
it was. That's the thing I remember, and in in
so many ways, is that someone just being kind And honestly,
(03:01):
kids who are thirteen and fourteen, they're not necessarily kind
and looking out for each other. And I thought that
that was a moment that UM defined in some ways
my worldview of people. Kind of you can you can
be paying your pants in a math test and someone
will help you. Someone will give you their sweatshirt, like
(03:23):
I got you. Um. And in fact, you wrote a
piece of about it. You wrote a paper about it
a year later, right, well, actually the next year in
eighth grade, I wrote this like UM kind of essay,
like this humor essay. It was like a sort of
piece of creative writing, and and the teacher liked it,
so she put it up on the bulletin board. Um,
(03:44):
and then everyone read it, and then they anyone who
didn't know that this had happened, was all of a
sudden like I thought that was just a rumor that
you really did that, And I was like, no, I was,
but I had a sense that it was funny anyway.
I you it was funny. I knew it was. It
was like a humiliation that was actually quite funny. You're
(04:06):
pretty brave to put yourself out there because a lot
of people would never want to think about that incident again,
and yet you write a paper. So the people, as
you said, who didn't know all now I know they
all knew. No, I think, Um, I think that's the
way I've found to deal with most things is to
make it into art somehow, whether it's you know, in
(04:29):
the eighth grade writing a little humor essay or now
I think I am always turning the thing that happens
into um into story, into into a movie, into a character,
because it's it's my coping mechanism, but also into an
almost universal experience. Right you You almost want to, I
(04:52):
wouldn't say necessarily normalize something like that, but you want
to expose it because it shows everyone how vulnerable we
all are. I mean, we all could have been that
seventh grader MP during the math test, right, it is yes,
And I think it is that kind of I think
(05:12):
it's funny because sometimes you can feel like, am I
screaming into a void? Does anyone hear this? And that
she says, yeah, everyone knows. Everyone knows, And I think
that that's um when I go to the movies, when
I go to theater, when I read a book. It's
amazing to me still that art is the thing that
can reach out and uh and touch you. But in
(05:35):
this way that you say, or I always say to myself,
I'm like, oh my god, somebody knows. They know, like
like some part of yourself you thought was wrong or
weird or just embarrassing or anything, and then you see
it reflected back at you and you thought it's there.
It's there in the world, and someone else knows about
this and you recognize yourself and the story. And that's
(05:58):
very much the case I think GETA when it comes
to Ladybird. In some ways, you grew up in Sacramento,
not unlike Ladybird. Were you a big movie person growing up?
Do you remember seeing movies and thinking, oh my gosh,
one day. You know, actually, for me it was theater.
It wasn't movies. I didn't really movies seemed not they
(06:21):
weren't my medium. I didn't. I didn't really understand how
they were made. Um. They felt like they were handed
down from God's They didn't seem like they had been
made by people. So UM. I loved theater because you
could see the people who made it right in front
of you, and you know, you could read. You know,
my favorite playwright when I was in high school was
(06:42):
Tom Stoppard, and I love Tom Stoppard plays. And I
could get one of my friends together and we could
memorize it all and put it on like which we did,
which was extremely weird because no one was asking for
it and we were doing Rosencrants and Guildenstern are Dead.
But the all female version that was an unsanctioned, like
class productive, like no, what he said, why don't you
go do this? Um? But it felt like theater was
(07:03):
something I could just make. I didn't need that much
to make it. UM. And film I didn't. I did,
We didn't watch TV. I didn't go to the movies
that much. UM, and it was not something I really
related to until college. And then I went to college
in New York. And because I went to college here,
(07:26):
I started going to Film Forum Downtown, which had a
great repertory program of older movies and new Arthouse movies, UM,
the Museum of Moving Image, UM Anthology, Film Archives, the
r I P. Lincoln Lincoln Center Theater. The best UM was,
(07:46):
which was New Arthouse movies, and and I slowly started
becoming a cinephile, but it was late relatively. It was
you know, when I was eighteen or nineteen. It wasn't.
It wasn't when I was a kid. And this was
when you were a Barnard majoring in philosophy and English.
And it sounds like movies, well, movies on the side, definitely.
(08:08):
I know. I took film studies classes there, but they
didn't have a film because it was it's not a
b f A, so it wasn't a film practice. It
was like it was a film series, film UM, film history. UM. Yeah,
I know you were. You wanted to get your m
f A y Yale. They rejected. Okay, can I just
(08:30):
say I can relate to that. I wanted to go
to Smith College, where my two older sisters went by
Beta cap of the whole nine yards Smith Loved sisters
not even waitlisted. Didn't even get the waitlisted, not even waitlisted.
I got one of those envelopes back in the day.
It was terrible. I mean, they must have really not wanted. Now,
(08:52):
when I run into the president of Smith, you know what,
I say, big mistake, just like Julia Robertson exactly, big digue, huge. No,
that's that makes me so happy that you didn't get
into Smith. Also because your sisters went it, that makes
it so much worse. You must have fe like there's
really something wrong with me. Oh yes, I mean that's
(09:14):
a whole other podcast. That's such a wonderful thing to know.
I think, I think claiming moments of disappointment and not
working out it's so important because I think, you know,
I think it's easy to look and say, well that
she always knew, she always had all the things, everybody thought,
(09:34):
she was great and smart, and she just sailed her
way through life, and you're like, no, let's face it,
it's a series of disappointments. Yeah. I mean, even when
things are going well, it's a it's a given A take.
Was it crushing for you when you didn't get into Yale,
or were you just like they don't deserve me? It
was all through. I was Yale, Juilliard, and n YU
for playwriting, and I got rejected from all three. Um so,
(09:57):
I mean, certainly, I think that the thought crosses your mind,
perhaps I should not do this anymore, like the world
seems to be telling me I'm not very good at this.
But I I just I just I couldn't. I loved
it too much, I thought, you know, um, even if
(10:17):
even if I'm terrible at this, I want to do
it because I love it so much. And you started
doing it after Burnett. I know, you got into the
indie world of filmmaking something called mumble core. One of
your earliest films that falls into that category, I think
is Hannah Takes the Stairs, which also start Mark Duplas.
(10:38):
You know. I didn't tell you this today yet, but
you look really beautiful on that mask. Yeah, you really,
just you look so gorgeous. Thank you? Do you look
beautiful in your mask. I didn't really know much about
mumble core until I was preparing for this interview. It
is a term that has been used to describe the
(10:58):
set of films. But it was never a thing where
we said we're making mumblecore movies and here's what they are.
It's that there were just all these different filmmakers at
this particular moment kind of between two thousand and five
and two thousand and eight ish where they started making
movies for not a lot of money with not professional actors,
(11:20):
where it was about a feeling of people behaving more,
how people behave less like you know, waking up with um,
you know, perfectly lit makeup and all this stuff. It
was the feeling of like, this is not how people
live like about films. It was like that's not I
(11:42):
don't recognize people here. It was also heavily relied on
not all of them because there's a kind of a
catch all phrase. But there's a lot of improvisation that
went on which was very useful. Um and and and
the sort of all hands on debt quality was very
full because I learned how to make movies by making movies.
(12:06):
And there was no boom operator. I held the boom,
there was no editor. We all sat around it and
edited it at night. It was this very collaborative process,
and I think I learned quickly how movies work what
is interesting on camera, and we weren't making them as
calling cards to another movie. That was the movie. We
(12:30):
were taking it seriously and it ended up being like
my graduate school. Was there anyone in particular he felt
like you really learned from There's a filmmaker. We still
love his work. Um Andrew Buljoski, who I think last
year he made this wonderful film Support the Girls, UM,
(12:51):
which if you haven't seen it, go see it. It's great.
And he even though it seemed like his dialog was improvised,
it wasn't. It was very tightly scripted and very precise.
And I really loved the way he shot films and
thought about films, and UM, I looked up to him
a great deal, and um he's continued to make great movies.
(13:12):
But it was that kind of um, very precise cinematic
writing that sounds like conversation, which is then became the
thing I was chasing. So I moved away entirely from
improvisation because I started trying to get that sense of
the language mattering, UM, which was really in line with
(13:34):
what I was interested in as a play, right, which
is about writing, but also I imagine about cadence. You know,
the way people talk over each other, the way they interrupt,
the way that natural conversation occurs. It is very um
appealing to me, natural sounding conversation that's been sculpted. It's
(13:54):
it's my preference. It's my favorite. It's my favorite one.
It it's seems like it's not written, and people say, oh,
it was it improvised? No, of course not. It's every
word I like it said exactly how I wrote it.
So you moved Greta from acting initially to to writing
(14:15):
and directing. I'm curious why why you decided you wanted
to be more behind the scenes. I wanted to get
my hands on it however I could in terms of uh,
theater and film and um. I loved acting because that
was the way I could interact with it. But I
(14:38):
didn't really realize I could write. It was a professor
who said because I kept writing monologues and stuff for
other people, and they're like, do you want to take
a playwriting class? And I was like, no, no, no,
other people do that, and like, you keep doing it,
so maybe you'd like to do this. And this was
in college. I was in college, but I had written,
I had been writing the whole time. When I was
(14:59):
in high school. Whenever there was a like an assembly
and they needed a sketch, I would always write the sketches.
That always. But I never thought of myself as a
writer because, to be totally honest, I thought it was
I thought someone who was much smarter than me, and
probably a man would be would be doing the writing.
I thought it was. I didn't know any female playwrights.
(15:19):
I didn't know any female writer directors. I just didn't
And and then I I got educated about them, but
it was something that had not occurred to me on
some deep level even though I was doing it, and
I had to be very literally told, this is an
option for you. Um. And then I started doing. I mean,
(15:39):
I was writing, I was producing, I was directing, but
I was also UM. I was a stage manager, I
worked in lights and sound. I did a lot of
different things because I wanted to be part of the
world so much, and I figured if I could do
lots of things, they'd have to let me in somewhere.
And that was really smart of you, So, you know, honestly,
because you became an apprentice and all these different um,
(16:04):
you know, disciplines and and then of course you learned
how to be the conductor because you understood what everybody
did and probably honestly respected it too. I mean, that's
definitely how I hope I took all that experience, because
filmmaking is the most collaborative art form, so getting to
(16:27):
operate in all the different areas of constructing a movie
is incredibly useful. And I'm I'm dead in the water
without the people around me, And every single person who's
working on a film is to me, they are the
filmmaker for the thing that they're doing. You tell the
story in so many ways, and I need every single
(16:50):
person on set to to tell it with me otherwise
I guess what am I doing. Of course, Lady Bird,
which your big, big breakthrough, and it so much about relationships.
Why didn't you just say pick up your face? You're
so infurious not yelling? Oh it's perfect? What was it
(17:13):
about that film that made it resonate so much? Everyone?
Everyone has a family, everybody understands, everybody comes from somewhere.
Everybody knows what it is to love and what it
is to lose. Everyone there's no pre what requisites for
understanding a story, and I think that with lady bird.
(17:33):
It's that thing of you. You don't come from a
generalized place. You come from a specific place. And my
specific place that I could speak to was Sacramento. But
I think that that connects. I think, you know, the
more specific you get, the more universal it can be
because it connects back to everyone. And then you think
of the specific house you grew up in and what
your specific relationship with all those people were, and and
(17:57):
I think, Um, I had lots of men tell me
they like, I know it's about a teenage girl, but
I am. I feel like I'm ladybird. I was like,
that's fine, you're six year old man, and I totally
support you in that. I think that that's right, your ladybird.
I loved her relationship with her mom. Course, I worship
luring that calf and I mean, she was just so
(18:19):
phenomenal in it. Um. And I think again, that sort
of goes back to your mumble core days. Don't you
think you were heavily influenced by the reality of their relationship.
People are like, yeah, I remember going through clothes with
my mom. I mean, taking these very typical scenes and
everyone's like, oh, yeah, I did that with my mom. Yeah,
(18:41):
my mom drove me crazy about this. I remember saying
this at the time. If you stop any woman on
the street and ask how's your relationship with your mom,
It's never going to be a one word answer. It's
never gonna be like good, like that's just not people
don't that's not true. And I felt like the whole
time when we were making it, I kept saying, I
can't believe no one's made this yet, like this seems like,
(19:03):
so why wouldn't you make this movie? Speaking of that
sitting there, how did your parents feel about that movie?
And how is your relationship with your mom? How long
do you have? No, I'm getting they sound super normal
by the way, wonderful. Yes, and then it sounds like
they're they're um that you might be sort of the
quirky one in the group. Am I right? Yes? I am.
(19:25):
I mean what I will say, and this is not
there really good people. They're good people, and and they're
good in in a in a sense that I think, um,
you know, I think in some ways actually with with
Little Women, I felt like I was able to tap
into that as well. It feel very personal to me
(19:45):
in that way. But there, um, they have a sense
of civic responsibility, moral responsibility, responsibility to their city and
their family and their community. And it's a very like
It reminds me when I go back home that you
can be a good citizen and a good person and
(20:06):
you can take care of each other. And I think that,
um uh, you know every and also everyone who meets
my mom is like your mom is wonderful. OK. I know,
I know are lucky. Yes, I am very lucky. Coming up,
Gretta talks about her latest movie, Little Women, and how
she made the Louisa may Alcock classic her own. Let's
(20:32):
talk about Little Women. You've assembled a dream team in
this latest movie. You have Sir Sha Ronan, who I've
got such a girl crush on, Emma Watson, Laura Dern
also a girl crush on Meryl Street, Eliza Scamblin, and
Florence Pugh who are the newer, newer, young, obviously incredibly
(20:55):
talented actors. Um. Before we talk about the film, let's
talk about the book. Were you a big fan of
the book growing up? Yes? I was that the book
was It was one of my favorite books. I read
it over and over and over. I mean I was
a rereader as a child. I think maybe it's something
children do that the adults stopped doing, of watching the
(21:16):
same movie as or reading the same books over and
over again, like it becomes part of you somehow. Um.
It's also sort of comforting. It's very comforting, and it's
that ritualistic, uh revisiting of characters. It's another reason why
like the structures of I'm a huge Law and Order fan,
(21:38):
but like, I know, it's my favorite, but there's a
deep relaxation in me that occurs because I know the
beats of the show. And I think that's one of
the reasons why people love it is because Okay, well
it's only minute twenties, so that's not the guy. We're
gonna wait to get him till minute forty five. I'm not,
(21:59):
you know you just no, Um, I'm going to have
to pay do a little matchmaking between you and Marishka.
I love her, I mean I love her, do you know? Okay,
I don't want to meet her because I love her
so much. No, you're gonna love her in person. Most comforting,
you know, like in meditation when they say, like go
(22:19):
think of a beach or something that makes you feel safe,
And I was thinking of Mashka his face because I
feel like she's so compassionate and it really just comes
through on the screen. I feel like she's so wonderful
and I don't know anything about her really in her life,
but I think that the person she is shines through,
like she makes you feel so unjudged. I'm gonna send
(22:42):
I'm going to send that to her and get her reaction.
What a nice compliment, I love. I mean, this is amazing,
It's so funny, it's wonderful. All this is the sixth,
sixth film adaptation of Little Women, so I think it's
a seventh, is it? Yeah? Yeah, I'm gonna have to
fire Mirace and two animes shows to animal and a
(23:05):
musical and an opera. Oh my god, all right, did
you watch all the movies, Bretta? No? You know what
I did was I have have seen all the movies
at different points. I didn't look at any of the
movies because I wanted it because with Little Women, obviously
the books put around for a hundred and fifty years.
But I feel that the iconography of Little Women, the
(23:26):
kind of collective memory of what it is is that
it's the error text. It's the text writ large and
I think as a filmmaker, when I wanted to do
was to take that collective memory that we have of
what Little Women is. Whether it's you know, Marmie and
the girls sitting around by the fire, or Amy burning
the book or the dance. You know, there's all these
(23:47):
things that we have in our minds of what Little
Women is. That I felt like I could take that
and kind of create something that was to be honest,
like a cute cubist piece of out it because I
wanted to look at it from another side, which is
I started the movie when they're adults, and then they
go back to childhood as a kind of a yearning
(24:09):
and uh and uh, this snow globe housy on days
of something that's gone and they can't recapture. I want
to be an artist in Rome and be the best
painter in the worlds. What do you want to isn't
it Joey to be a famous right? Yes? It sounds
so crass when she says, my girls have a way
of getting into mischief. You know you, in fact, do
(24:33):
I think to such an interesting spin on on Little Women? Um?
And I think you intertwine. Louisa Mett May Alcott's journal
entries and letters, so it's almost a mash up between
her life story and the story that she wrote in
the book. So tell us a little bit about that process,
(24:54):
and also, Greta, how you sort of did it in
a very different way in terms of the time framed. Yeah, Well,
Louise May Alcott was as I researched her, because I
didn't really know anything about her when I was growing up.
I loved Joe March, but I didn't know who Louise
May Alcott was. And when I was researching Louisa, I
(25:17):
found that she she is the heroine behind the heroine,
like she is the woman that I had unconsciously been
drawn to. And um of the many extraordinary things about
her was that, you know, she never got married, she
never had children, and she kept the copyright of her book,
(25:41):
which I thought, that's incredible that a woman in the
nineteenth century knew to keep the copyright to her book.
And I was like, well, I have to put this
in the movie. And then I so I started to
I started to weave who Louise may Alcott was into
who Joe is, and I start in her you know,
(26:03):
mid twenties, her adulthood. And I did that with time
because I wanted to introduce this idea of fiction and
writing and authorships, so that the past isn't just the past,
it's also fiction. It's also the thing that you wrote
out of your life. And um, I think as a
writer myself, that distance between what happened versus what did
(26:25):
you write is something that's inherently emotional to me. And
I put all kinds of details about who Louisa was
in the movie, things like she was ambidextrous. She taught
herself how to write with her left hand because I
noticed that her hand would cramp, her hand would cramp
her I noticed that in the film because you didn't
actually talk about it. I just noticed it. I thought
(26:48):
it was cinematic and kind of beautiful to have her
right with both hands, and that that was that was Louisa.
Because the Outcot family unlike the March family. The March
family are like the genteel poor. They were like the
Bennetts or something from Pride and Prejudice. The Alcoots were
wretchedly poor. They moved something like thirty times in four
(27:09):
years because I could never pay the rent. And Louisa
and her sisters went out to work when they were teenagers,
and she worked, she sewed, and so she would sew
all day and then she would come home and she'd
write her stories at night, which she had been composing
in her head to sell for not a lot of
money because it was for penny dreadful papers. And she
would write with her right hand and then it would
cramp and bleed, and she taught herself how to write
(27:31):
with her left hand so she could keep writing. And
that kind of physical act of what it means to
write and to produce something. Um, it just felt heroic
to me that that that determination to keep to keep
putting it on paper. And there were other ways that
you intertwined the two stories, right, and you know, was it?
(27:54):
Is it commonly believed that Louisa that Joe was Louisa,
Louisa was. Yes, that's the feeling. Also, Louisa and Joe
both have three sisters. Um, they both have I mean,
I mean I feel like everyone knows this, but they
both have loss in their life of one you know,
(28:14):
specific person and um, but so it's easy to look
at it and say, oh, I see that's a that's
that's Louisa. But the differences are emotional and striking, and
that's why I started the film with the quote, Um,
I've had lots of troubles, so I write Jolly Tails
(28:34):
And I thought, oh, that just kills me. You know
so much. First story, Greta is about dealing with men
in charge, men controlling her art, and um, I shouldn't
have been surprised, but against the backdrop of the modern woman,
it is still It was still jarring for me to
watch women with so much spirit and so little agency. Yes,
(28:56):
I believe we have some power over who we love.
It isn't something that just happened to a person. I
think the poets might disagree. Well, I'm not a poet.
I'm just a woman. And as a woman, there's no
way for me to make my own money, not enough
to earn a living or to support my family. And
if I had my own money, which I don't, that
(29:18):
money would belong to my husband the moment we got married,
and if we had children, they would be his, not mine.
They would be his property. So don't sit there and
tell me that marriage isn't an economic proposition, because it is.
Was that something that you also as a modern American
woman in a position of power now that you grappled
(29:38):
with a vent sort of how how limited their options were.
Where I am, where we are. What's possible now is
is possible because of all these generations of women who
have worked so hard to get to where we are.
And I think, to me, I feel, I feel this
deep sense of you could draw a straight line from
Louisa Mayl called to me, and what I'm able to
(29:59):
do is is indebted to what she did because she
wrote about the lives of girls and women and that
people read it and loved it, and it prepared, It
stayed in print over a hundred and fifty years. It
was translated into fifty two languages. It became important because
there was an audience for which nobody recognized, which was
girls and women. And now what I think, and I
(30:22):
have them have this discussion in the film is um
I would love those to not be uh works that
have asterix next to them. I would love them not
to be you know, women's literature, women's stories, or women's
chick flicks. I don't think that they should be, and
I don't think that they are. I think that they're
(30:44):
human stories. And something Meryl Streep said to me. She said,
we have lots of practice as women imagining ourselves in
male narratives. We've done it our whole lives because we're
always reading books and going into films and looking at
men and projecting ourselves into their stories. And I actually
think that they have huge capacities to do the same.
(31:07):
Men have a capacity to go to films or read
novels and to feel themselves within a female character like
that man said, I'm lady bird, right, Bird, that's right.
And I think that there's a fear that maybe I
don't know, I don't know where it comes from, but
maybe there's a fear that it diminishes their masculinity somehow.
But I only think it makes the expression of who
you are deeper if you can see yourself as as
(31:30):
as multiple, as many as not just um in your
narrow category. And so I think for me it's there's
many possibilities now, But still it feels like we say
they're niche. And also because i'm you know, movies are
you make them and you hope people will go see them, um,
(31:52):
and they're there. You need a lot of people, you
need money, they're expensive, so you do have these discussions
about and who's the audience, And um, you know, it's
very classic thing in Hollywood, that's say, girls will go
to boys movies and boys will not go to girls movies.
Do you think that's changing, Grata? I think it is changing,
and I think it's changing so quickly that we haven't
(32:13):
registered the change yet. And um, but I think it's
it's transforming right now. It's called empathy, after all. That's
I always say that movies are emphathy machines. That's what
they do, and so that that is, that is the thing.
And I found myself in the movie theater many times
(32:34):
feeling like I've lived through something that I haven't because
of the way the movie makes me feel, and places
and people and experiences that just connect back to to
who you are. I do think you imbue a lot
of modern uh sensibilities into this movie. For example, I
(32:55):
think the exploration of Joe's character is much otter and
more profound, given how we're reevaluating not only gender roles,
but gender identity, sexual orientation. And it seems to me
that perhaps Louisa may Alcott today, if she were here today,
(33:17):
might might not be a straight woman. Yeah, well, there's
actually really interesting um right writing that she did I
mean to start with Joe, she says, I mean, she
really does say the whole book. She wants to be
a boy, she says, the whole time. And it's hard
to look at that with the century lens, because the
(33:38):
truth is Joe wanting to be a boy. It can
be interpreted in lots of ways. One way is just well,
why wouldn't she want to be a boy? They were
they got to do options. She had none, and so
you don't always want to ascribe some category that she
didn't have. But I do, definitely I think that there
(34:01):
there was something going on. I mean the Louisa has
Um some of the letters she wrote this um she wrote,
I sometimes I believe I'm a man in a woman's body,
for I've fallen in love in love with a dozen
pretty girls, and I've never once felt that way from him.
Do you think, oh my god, we might have something
for you. But but it's you know, it's also difficult. Um.
(34:27):
I didn't want to become didactic, and I didn't want
to give her something. I didn't want to give it.
I did again. I didn't want to assign her something
or label her as something but I did want to
allow the mess of just the raw feeling to come through.
Talk about raw feelings. You also gave her permission to
(34:50):
be angry. I get in a passion, I get so savage,
I could hurt anyone and I'd enjoyed it. You remind
me of my myself. But you are never angry. I'm
angry nearly every day of my life. One of the
lines that stood out to me, and I thought it
(35:11):
has this always been in the book was um Marmy's
saying to Joe, I'm angry almost every single day of
my life, which I said, That's not what I think
of when I think of Marmy, but it's it's right there,
and I think, you know it's actually talking about it.
I I I get uncomfortable talking about anger, UM or
(35:34):
talking about, you know, feeling upset about things, because because
I still I grew up in this culture. I know
you don't want to be the angry the angry girl UM.
So you know, I think I have been given a
lot more permission to be so by by people who
(35:55):
are writing and thinking and doing. And I think UM,
for me, one of the the beautiful things about UM
writing fiction and UM and and having characters say things.
And sometimes I can allow my characters to go farther
than I feel comfortable going because I can, I can
give them all of my thoughts and feelings and and
(36:16):
let them let them let it rip. Yeah, what makes
you angry right now? Oh? Are you? Are you fitel?
What's your sort of dominant emotion emotional state right now?
My dominant emotional well, actually, my dominant emotional state right
now is is um, some sort of like frantic euphoria
(36:39):
of because I have a baby and also so it's yeah,
but so so it's kind of like you know, a
tiny baby head where you're like babies and then you're
running around and doing all this stuff. So they're so
pure and everything else is so dirty. Well it's that babies.
(36:59):
Babies are one different thing, um, which is which is nice.
But yes, I feel I feel like, um, I can
already tell that this this moment in my life I'll
look back on and say, what the hell was I thinking?
How did how did any of that come to that?
I feel like everything in my life is half done
(37:19):
and I'm always eating something as I'm running to another thing. So, um,
I don't know, I don't know, for tiredness when we
come back, our women finally getting the recognition they deserve
or not. And in the wake of Me Too and
Time's Up, has Hollywood really changed? You talked about you
(37:47):
hope that boys will want to see movies about girls,
but what about the structure of the systematic uh, sort
of misogyny that seems to be pervasive and almost every
area of American culture, but particularly Hollywood. Do you feel
like that is starting to change? You know, when Frances
McDormand talked about inclusion writers and there has been this
(38:12):
reckoning with Me Too and Times Up? But but do
you I mean you're on the inside, Gretta, you know,
is there a reason to hope? Or yes? There's yes,
it was first of all, this year was the Annenberg
study that they do every year came out and and
it's it's this year in terms of the top grossing films.
(38:34):
It's it's better. I mean, it's not there, it's not
there women UM, women of color. Uh. Still there's a
long way to go in terms of UM authorship and
ownership and a diversity of storytellers. But it's it is
getting better. And I do think studios are pushing themselves
and to to hire to hire women, to hire different
(38:59):
kinds of stories, tillers, to to put women in charge
of projects. I actually, I actually think this is changing substantively,
which is what is so hopeful. And then I also
think it's changing in terms of you know, the women
who drove Times up. What was so meaningful about that
was it was this this coming together and this organizing
(39:23):
and this funding to help other women in all industries,
and how and how that mobilized into something that that
kind of community, I think is what's um what's so
powerful and what is continuing UM And it can't change overnight.
I mean, it does take time, but you feel like
(39:44):
that was the kick in the pants the industry needed.
You know, It's so interesting because I think it was.
It was, But I also think, um, this has been
growing in terms of hiring more female directors for a while,
that this had been growing, and then it just you know,
kicked it kicked it to a new level. And yet
(40:06):
the Golden Globes were announced, not one female director was nominated,
and that's so aggravating to so many of us. Well,
I think it was such a banner year for female
filmmakers and UM, but I think I think actually every
year has has been a has a banner year, and
every year I see lots of female directed films that
(40:28):
I think are just as worthy and just as important
to hold up. And I mean I was very happy
that in Foreign Film Portrait of Lady on Fire and
UM and The Farewell both were acknowledged in Foreign Film.
But come on, and no, no, no, I mean that,
but that's that's good. That's good, that's that's important. But
certainly I think acknowledgement of UM the the tremendous work
(40:52):
being done this year, and I mean about last year too.
It happened last year. I mean, it did happen last year,
and it happened actually the year before that. So I mean,
you know what the thing that I I keep going
to is, but we're still making them, and we're still
we still keep making these strides and the and and
it is still happening. So PS, you're making remarkable movies
(41:17):
that are doing really well and really resonating. And PS,
we still don't know about the Academy Awards. Hope. The
thing that I see is like, you know, I see Lulu,
I see I see Mari who did direct the Farewell,
who directed Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. I see Molina
who directed Queen and Slim, and that's just a few.
(41:38):
This is happening, and I feel like it's also um,
you know, it's gathering steam, it's gathering energy. I love movies,
I love filmmakers. I think everyone who's up there deserves
to be up there. I just want, I want. I
want these women recognized. I want to sell collectively recognized
because there's so much good work. Oh and Loreen Scafaria,
who did Hustle. I mean, there's so many. I feel
(42:00):
like every time I hesitate even I need my list
of names just that I can go to. But it's
just um, and that's a real step forward, right that
you actually have a list of names. I have a
list of names every year. I really do. I have
a list of names every year. And and I think
when we're just going to keep making and and I
(42:22):
think people want to see it. You're such a huge talent, Greta.
I'm so happy for your success, and you're gonna be
inspiring so many young women for your work. The same
with Lena and all the other women that you mentioned.
So you're just opening up so many possibilities for them
because you know, listen, you're how old thirty four? Oh no,
(42:44):
I'm thirty sixty six. Sorry, but you know, isn't it
crazy that a thirty six year old woman didn't really
have anybody when you were in college to say, oh, look,
that could be met. It is interesting. There was a
group of them, and I don't want to downplay because
now now that now I know more, but there was
(43:05):
I learned about Jim Campion and right, and then Sofia
Coppola happened while I was in school. But it was
just sort of at the beginning. It was at the beginning,
and um, um, I learned about Lena vert Muller, who
I had the privilege of giving an award to, I mean,
Catherine Bigelow. But it was it was a small group
(43:25):
and now it feels like it's getting a much bigger
and that's um, that's good. It's a better band. Well,
it sure is, and we're so glad you're in it.
Thank you, Thanks Greta, Thanks everyone so much for listening.
I hope you enjoyed hearing from Greta as much as
I did. And by the way, if you're overwhelmed, by
(43:45):
the tsunami of information exploding on your iPhone every single day.
Check out my morning newsletter Wake Up Call. Go to
Katie currect dot com to subscribe, and of course follow
me on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Oh LinkedIn too. I'm
everywhere people until Next Time and my Next Question, I'm
(44:06):
Katie Couric Later. Next Question with Katie Couric is a
production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. The
executive producers are Katie Kuric, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas,
and Tyler Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Macalouoso and
Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers
(44:26):
are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens. Editing is by Dylan Fagin,
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For more information on today's episode, go to Katie Currek
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Katie Couric. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit
(44:49):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I
Heart Radio and Katie Couric Media. Hi, everyone, welcome to
Next Question. I'm Katie Kuric. I can already tell that
this moment in my life I'll look back on and say,
what the hell is I think? Greta Gerwig is a
modern version of a Hollywood triple threat. With films like
(00:22):
Frances Ha and twenties Century Women, She's proved to be
a formidable actress, but since she's turned her focus to
behind the camera, she's become one of the most successful
writer directors in the business. Her last film, Lady Bird,
was heralded by critics and audiences alike, including me. Gretta
once again is exploring the complexities of female relationships and
(00:46):
ambition with her new adaptations of Little Women, based on
the Louisa may Alcock classic that so many of us
remember from our Childhood's Little Women is a love letter
to all of us who break the shackles of invention
and write our own stories. So my next question is
what is gretti Girlwig story? And ken Hollywood handle it?
(01:10):
You realized you were a great storyteller because of a
very funny incident in seventh grade. Oh god, yes, wow,
you really we really did our research gradish, I know,
Oh my god, yes, yes, Well I had an incident
in seventh grade. It was a new school, uh in California,
(01:31):
you know, Junior High is its own seventh and eighth grade.
They're like, let's take you at your most awkward two years,
put you in a group that's much bigger and scarier,
and then just see how you do. Which I don't
know why they do that. That's very Darwinian, isn't it. Yeah,
it really is. I have this visual memory of walking
in and knowing my classmates from elementary school, and I
(01:53):
felt like everyone was just like, spend for yourself, we'll
see you in high school. Like it was. It was
definitely the Lord of the Flies. But I was taking
a math test, a placement test, and I didn't know
was I allowed to get up? Was I allowed to
say I had to go the bathroom? And so I
didn't and I was anyway anyway, I ended up peeing
(02:15):
my pants during the math test. But actually the true
thing that happened, which I was the girl next to
me saw it happen, and she took off her sweatshirt
and gave it to me, and she was like put
this around her, raised and go run to the nurse's office,
like she took care of me. And I loved that girl,
I know. But isn't it interesting that act of kindness
(02:38):
but entirely new lends on what might have been a
soul crushing experience for you? Right yeah, I mean it
wasn't my favorite experience. I'm not saying it was, but
it was. That's the thing I remember, and in in
so many ways, is that someone just being kind And honestly,
(03:01):
kids who are thirteen and fourteen, they're not necessarily kind
and looking out for each other. And I thought that
that was a moment that UM defined in some ways
my worldview of people. Kind of you can you can
be paying your pants in a math test and someone
will help you. Someone will give you their sweatshirt, like
(03:23):
I got you. Um. And in fact, you wrote a
piece of about it. You wrote a paper about it
a year later, right, well, actually the next year in
eighth grade, I wrote this like UM kind of essay,
like this humor essay. It was like a sort of
piece of creative writing, and and the teacher liked it,
so she put it up on the bulletin board. Um,
(03:44):
and then everyone read it, and then they anyone who
didn't know that this had happened, was all of a
sudden like I thought that was just a rumor that
you really did that, And I was like, no, I was,
but I had a sense that it was funny anyway.
I you it was funny. I knew it was. It
was like a humiliation that was actually quite funny. You're
(04:06):
pretty brave to put yourself out there because a lot
of people would never want to think about that incident again,
and yet you write a paper. So the people, as
you said, who didn't know all now I know they
all knew. No, I think, Um, I think that's the
way I've found to deal with most things is to
make it into art somehow, whether it's you know, in
(04:29):
the eighth grade writing a little humor essay or now
I think I am always turning the thing that happens
into um into story, into into a movie, into a character,
because it's it's my coping mechanism, but also into an
almost universal experience. Right you You almost want to, I
(04:52):
wouldn't say necessarily normalize something like that, but you want
to expose it because it shows everyone how vulnerable we
all are. I mean, we all could have been that
seventh grader MP during the math test, right, it is yes,
And I think it is that kind of I think
(05:12):
it's funny because sometimes you can feel like, am I
screaming into a void? Does anyone hear this? And that
she says, yeah, everyone knows. Everyone knows, And I think
that that's um when I go to the movies, when
I go to theater, when I read a book. It's
amazing to me still that art is the thing that
can reach out and uh and touch you. But in
(05:35):
this way that you say, or I always say to myself,
I'm like, oh my god, somebody knows. They know, like
like some part of yourself you thought was wrong or
weird or just embarrassing or anything, and then you see
it reflected back at you and you thought it's there.
It's there in the world, and someone else knows about
this and you recognize yourself and the story. And that's
(05:58):
very much the case I think GETA when it comes
to Ladybird. In some ways, you grew up in Sacramento,
not unlike Ladybird. Were you a big movie person growing up?
Do you remember seeing movies and thinking, oh my gosh,
one day. You know, actually, for me it was theater.
It wasn't movies. I didn't really movies seemed not they
(06:21):
weren't my medium. I didn't. I didn't really understand how
they were made. Um. They felt like they were handed
down from God's They didn't seem like they had been
made by people. So UM. I loved theater because you
could see the people who made it right in front
of you, and you know, you could read. You know,
my favorite playwright when I was in high school was
(06:42):
Tom Stoppard, and I love Tom Stoppard plays. And I
could get one of my friends together and we could
memorize it all and put it on like which we did,
which was extremely weird because no one was asking for
it and we were doing Rosencrants and Guildenstern are Dead.
But the all female version that was an unsanctioned, like
class productive, like no, what he said, why don't you
go do this? Um? But it felt like theater was
(07:03):
something I could just make. I didn't need that much
to make it. UM. And film I didn't. I did,
We didn't watch TV. I didn't go to the movies
that much. UM, and it was not something I really
related to until college. And then I went to college
in New York. And because I went to college here,
(07:26):
I started going to Film Forum Downtown, which had a
great repertory program of older movies and new Arthouse movies, UM,
the Museum of Moving Image, UM Anthology, Film Archives, the
r I P. Lincoln Lincoln Center Theater. The best UM was,
(07:46):
which was New Arthouse movies, and and I slowly started
becoming a cinephile, but it was late relatively. It was
you know, when I was eighteen or nineteen. It wasn't.
It wasn't when I was a kid. And this was
when you were a Barnard majoring in philosophy and English.
And it sounds like movies, well, movies on the side, definitely.
(08:08):
I know. I took film studies classes there, but they
didn't have a film because it was it's not a
b f A, so it wasn't a film practice. It
was like it was a film series, film UM, film history. UM. Yeah,
I know you were. You wanted to get your m
f A y Yale. They rejected. Okay, can I just
(08:30):
say I can relate to that. I wanted to go
to Smith College, where my two older sisters went by
Beta cap of the whole nine yards Smith Loved sisters
not even waitlisted. Didn't even get the waitlisted, not even waitlisted.
I got one of those envelopes back in the day.
It was terrible. I mean, they must have really not wanted. Now,
(08:52):
when I run into the president of Smith, you know what,
I say, big mistake, just like Julia Robertson exactly, big digue, huge. No,
that's that makes me so happy that you didn't get
into Smith. Also because your sisters went it, that makes
it so much worse. You must have fe like there's
really something wrong with me. Oh yes, I mean that's
(09:14):
a whole other podcast. That's such a wonderful thing to know.
I think, I think claiming moments of disappointment and not
working out it's so important because I think, you know,
I think it's easy to look and say, well that
she always knew, she always had all the things, everybody thought,
(09:34):
she was great and smart, and she just sailed her
way through life, and you're like, no, let's face it,
it's a series of disappointments. Yeah. I mean, even when
things are going well, it's a it's a given A take.
Was it crushing for you when you didn't get into Yale,
or were you just like they don't deserve me? It
was all through. I was Yale, Juilliard, and n YU
for playwriting, and I got rejected from all three. Um so,
(09:57):
I mean, certainly, I think that the thought crosses your mind,
perhaps I should not do this anymore, like the world
seems to be telling me I'm not very good at this.
But I I just I just I couldn't. I loved
it too much, I thought, you know, um, even if
(10:17):
even if I'm terrible at this, I want to do
it because I love it so much. And you started
doing it after Burnett. I know, you got into the
indie world of filmmaking something called mumble core. One of
your earliest films that falls into that category, I think
is Hannah Takes the Stairs, which also start Mark Duplas.
(10:38):
You know. I didn't tell you this today yet, but
you look really beautiful on that mask. Yeah, you really,
just you look so gorgeous. Thank you? Do you look
beautiful in your mask. I didn't really know much about
mumble core until I was preparing for this interview. It
is a term that has been used to describe the
(10:58):
set of films. But it was never a thing where
we said we're making mumblecore movies and here's what they are.
It's that there were just all these different filmmakers at
this particular moment kind of between two thousand and five
and two thousand and eight ish where they started making
movies for not a lot of money with not professional actors,
(11:20):
where it was about a feeling of people behaving more,
how people behave less like you know, waking up with um,
you know, perfectly lit makeup and all this stuff. It
was the feeling of like, this is not how people
live like about films. It was like that's not I
(11:42):
don't recognize people here. It was also heavily relied on
not all of them because there's a kind of a
catch all phrase. But there's a lot of improvisation that
went on which was very useful. Um and and and
the sort of all hands on debt quality was very
full because I learned how to make movies by making movies.
(12:06):
And there was no boom operator. I held the boom,
there was no editor. We all sat around it and
edited it at night. It was this very collaborative process,
and I think I learned quickly how movies work what
is interesting on camera, and we weren't making them as
calling cards to another movie. That was the movie. We
(12:30):
were taking it seriously and it ended up being like
my graduate school. Was there anyone in particular he felt
like you really learned from There's a filmmaker. We still
love his work. Um Andrew Buljoski, who I think last
year he made this wonderful film Support the Girls, UM,
(12:51):
which if you haven't seen it, go see it. It's great.
And he even though it seemed like his dialog was improvised,
it wasn't. It was very tightly scripted and very precise.
And I really loved the way he shot films and
thought about films, and UM, I looked up to him
a great deal, and um he's continued to make great movies.
(13:12):
But it was that kind of um, very precise cinematic
writing that sounds like conversation, which is then became the
thing I was chasing. So I moved away entirely from
improvisation because I started trying to get that sense of
the language mattering, UM, which was really in line with
(13:34):
what I was interested in as a play, right, which
is about writing, but also I imagine about cadence. You know,
the way people talk over each other, the way they interrupt,
the way that natural conversation occurs. It is very um
appealing to me, natural sounding conversation that's been sculpted. It's
(13:54):
it's my preference. It's my favorite. It's my favorite one.
It it's seems like it's not written, and people say, oh,
it was it improvised? No, of course not. It's every
word I like it said exactly how I wrote it.
So you moved Greta from acting initially to to writing
(14:15):
and directing. I'm curious why why you decided you wanted
to be more behind the scenes. I wanted to get
my hands on it however I could in terms of uh,
theater and film and um. I loved acting because that
was the way I could interact with it. But I
(14:38):
didn't really realize I could write. It was a professor
who said because I kept writing monologues and stuff for
other people, and they're like, do you want to take
a playwriting class? And I was like, no, no, no,
other people do that, and like, you keep doing it,
so maybe you'd like to do this. And this was
in college. I was in college, but I had written,
I had been writing the whole time. When I was
(14:59):
in high school. Whenever there was a like an assembly
and they needed a sketch, I would always write the sketches.
That always. But I never thought of myself as a
writer because, to be totally honest, I thought it was
I thought someone who was much smarter than me, and
probably a man would be would be doing the writing.
I thought it was. I didn't know any female playwrights.
(15:19):
I didn't know any female writer directors. I just didn't
And and then I I got educated about them, but
it was something that had not occurred to me on
some deep level even though I was doing it, and
I had to be very literally told, this is an
option for you. Um. And then I started doing. I mean,
(15:39):
I was writing, I was producing, I was directing, but
I was also UM. I was a stage manager, I
worked in lights and sound. I did a lot of
different things because I wanted to be part of the
world so much, and I figured if I could do
lots of things, they'd have to let me in somewhere.
And that was really smart of you, So, you know, honestly,
because you became an apprentice and all these different um,
(16:04):
you know, disciplines and and then of course you learned
how to be the conductor because you understood what everybody
did and probably honestly respected it too. I mean, that's
definitely how I hope I took all that experience, because
filmmaking is the most collaborative art form, so getting to
(16:27):
operate in all the different areas of constructing a movie
is incredibly useful. And I'm I'm dead in the water
without the people around me, And every single person who's
working on a film is to me, they are the
filmmaker for the thing that they're doing. You tell the
story in so many ways, and I need every single
(16:50):
person on set to to tell it with me otherwise
I guess what am I doing. Of course, Lady Bird,
which your big, big breakthrough, and it so much about relationships.
Why didn't you just say pick up your face? You're
so infurious not yelling? Oh it's perfect? What was it
(17:13):
about that film that made it resonate so much? Everyone?
Everyone has a family, everybody understands, everybody comes from somewhere.
Everybody knows what it is to love and what it
is to lose. Everyone there's no pre what requisites for
understanding a story, and I think that with lady bird.
(17:33):
It's that thing of you. You don't come from a
generalized place. You come from a specific place. And my
specific place that I could speak to was Sacramento. But
I think that that connects. I think, you know, the
more specific you get, the more universal it can be
because it connects back to everyone. And then you think
of the specific house you grew up in and what
your specific relationship with all those people were, and and
(17:57):
I think, Um, I had lots of men tell me
they like, I know it's about a teenage girl, but
I am. I feel like I'm ladybird. I was like,
that's fine, you're six year old man, and I totally
support you in that. I think that that's right, your ladybird.
I loved her relationship with her mom. Course, I worship
luring that calf and I mean, she was just so
(18:19):
phenomenal in it. Um. And I think again, that sort
of goes back to your mumble core days. Don't you
think you were heavily influenced by the reality of their relationship.
People are like, yeah, I remember going through clothes with
my mom. I mean, taking these very typical scenes and
everyone's like, oh, yeah, I did that with my mom. Yeah,
(18:41):
my mom drove me crazy about this. I remember saying
this at the time. If you stop any woman on
the street and ask how's your relationship with your mom,
It's never going to be a one word answer. It's
never gonna be like good, like that's just not people
don't that's not true. And I felt like the whole
time when we were making it, I kept saying, I
can't believe no one's made this yet, like this seems like,
(19:03):
so why wouldn't you make this movie? Speaking of that
sitting there, how did your parents feel about that movie?
And how is your relationship with your mom? How long
do you have? No, I'm getting they sound super normal
by the way, wonderful. Yes, and then it sounds like
they're they're um that you might be sort of the
quirky one in the group. Am I right? Yes? I am.
(19:25):
I mean what I will say, and this is not
there really good people. They're good people, and and they're
good in in a in a sense that I think, um,
you know, I think in some ways actually with with
Little Women, I felt like I was able to tap
into that as well. It feel very personal to me
(19:45):
in that way. But there, um, they have a sense
of civic responsibility, moral responsibility, responsibility to their city and
their family and their community. And it's a very like
It reminds me when I go back home that you
can be a good citizen and a good person and
(20:06):
you can take care of each other. And I think that,
um uh, you know every and also everyone who meets
my mom is like your mom is wonderful. OK. I know,
I know are lucky. Yes, I am very lucky. Coming up,
Gretta talks about her latest movie, Little Women, and how
she made the Louisa may Alcock classic her own. Let's
(20:32):
talk about Little Women. You've assembled a dream team in
this latest movie. You have Sir Sha Ronan, who I've
got such a girl crush on, Emma Watson, Laura Dern
also a girl crush on Meryl Street, Eliza Scamblin, and
Florence Pugh who are the newer, newer, young, obviously incredibly
(20:55):
talented actors. Um. Before we talk about the film, let's
talk about the book. Were you a big fan of
the book growing up? Yes? I was that the book
was It was one of my favorite books. I read
it over and over and over. I mean I was
a rereader as a child. I think maybe it's something
children do that the adults stopped doing, of watching the
(21:16):
same movie as or reading the same books over and
over again, like it becomes part of you somehow. Um.
It's also sort of comforting. It's very comforting, and it's
that ritualistic, uh revisiting of characters. It's another reason why
like the structures of I'm a huge Law and Order fan,
(21:38):
but like, I know, it's my favorite, but there's a
deep relaxation in me that occurs because I know the
beats of the show. And I think that's one of
the reasons why people love it is because Okay, well
it's only minute twenties, so that's not the guy. We're
gonna wait to get him till minute forty five. I'm not,
(21:59):
you know you just no, Um, I'm going to have
to pay do a little matchmaking between you and Marishka.
I love her, I mean I love her, do you know? Okay,
I don't want to meet her because I love her
so much. No, you're gonna love her in person. Most comforting,
you know, like in meditation when they say, like go
(22:19):
think of a beach or something that makes you feel safe,
And I was thinking of Mashka his face because I
feel like she's so compassionate and it really just comes
through on the screen. I feel like she's so wonderful
and I don't know anything about her really in her life,
but I think that the person she is shines through,
like she makes you feel so unjudged. I'm gonna send
(22:42):
I'm going to send that to her and get her reaction.
What a nice compliment, I love. I mean, this is amazing,
It's so funny, it's wonderful. All this is the sixth,
sixth film adaptation of Little Women, so I think it's
a seventh, is it? Yeah? Yeah, I'm gonna have to
fire Mirace and two animes shows to animal and a
(23:05):
musical and an opera. Oh my god, all right, did
you watch all the movies, Bretta? No? You know what
I did was I have have seen all the movies
at different points. I didn't look at any of the
movies because I wanted it because with Little Women, obviously
the books put around for a hundred and fifty years.
But I feel that the iconography of Little Women, the
(23:26):
kind of collective memory of what it is is that
it's the error text. It's the text writ large and
I think as a filmmaker, when I wanted to do
was to take that collective memory that we have of
what Little Women is. Whether it's you know, Marmie and
the girls sitting around by the fire, or Amy burning
the book or the dance. You know, there's all these
(23:47):
things that we have in our minds of what Little
Women is. That I felt like I could take that
and kind of create something that was to be honest,
like a cute cubist piece of out it because I
wanted to look at it from another side, which is
I started the movie when they're adults, and then they
go back to childhood as a kind of a yearning
(24:09):
and uh and uh, this snow globe housy on days
of something that's gone and they can't recapture. I want
to be an artist in Rome and be the best
painter in the worlds. What do you want to isn't
it Joey to be a famous right? Yes? It sounds
so crass when she says, my girls have a way
of getting into mischief. You know you, in fact, do
(24:33):
I think to such an interesting spin on on Little Women? Um?
And I think you intertwine. Louisa Mett May Alcott's journal
entries and letters, so it's almost a mash up between
her life story and the story that she wrote in
the book. So tell us a little bit about that process,
(24:54):
and also, Greta, how you sort of did it in
a very different way in terms of the time framed. Yeah, Well,
Louise May Alcott was as I researched her, because I
didn't really know anything about her when I was growing up.
I loved Joe March, but I didn't know who Louise
May Alcott was. And when I was researching Louisa, I
(25:17):
found that she she is the heroine behind the heroine,
like she is the woman that I had unconsciously been
drawn to. And um of the many extraordinary things about
her was that, you know, she never got married, she
never had children, and she kept the copyright of her book,
(25:41):
which I thought, that's incredible that a woman in the
nineteenth century knew to keep the copyright to her book.
And I was like, well, I have to put this
in the movie. And then I so I started to
I started to weave who Louise may Alcott was into
who Joe is, and I start in her you know,
(26:03):
mid twenties, her adulthood. And I did that with time
because I wanted to introduce this idea of fiction and
writing and authorships, so that the past isn't just the past,
it's also fiction. It's also the thing that you wrote
out of your life. And um, I think as a
writer myself, that distance between what happened versus what did
(26:25):
you write is something that's inherently emotional to me. And
I put all kinds of details about who Louisa was
in the movie, things like she was ambidextrous. She taught
herself how to write with her left hand because I
noticed that her hand would cramp, her hand would cramp
her I noticed that in the film because you didn't
actually talk about it. I just noticed it. I thought
(26:48):
it was cinematic and kind of beautiful to have her
right with both hands, and that that was that was Louisa.
Because the Outcot family unlike the March family. The March
family are like the genteel poor. They were like the
Bennetts or something from Pride and Prejudice. The Alcoots were
wretchedly poor. They moved something like thirty times in four
(27:09):
years because I could never pay the rent. And Louisa
and her sisters went out to work when they were teenagers,
and she worked, she sewed, and so she would sew
all day and then she would come home and she'd
write her stories at night, which she had been composing
in her head to sell for not a lot of
money because it was for penny dreadful papers. And she
would write with her right hand and then it would
cramp and bleed, and she taught herself how to write
(27:31):
with her left hand so she could keep writing. And
that kind of physical act of what it means to
write and to produce something. Um, it just felt heroic
to me that that that determination to keep to keep
putting it on paper. And there were other ways that
you intertwined the two stories, right, and you know, was it?
(27:54):
Is it commonly believed that Louisa that Joe was Louisa,
Louisa was. Yes, that's the feeling. Also, Louisa and Joe
both have three sisters. Um, they both have I mean,
I mean I feel like everyone knows this, but they
both have loss in their life of one you know,
(28:14):
specific person and um, but so it's easy to look
at it and say, oh, I see that's a that's
that's Louisa. But the differences are emotional and striking, and
that's why I started the film with the quote, Um,
I've had lots of troubles, so I write Jolly Tails
(28:34):
And I thought, oh, that just kills me. You know
so much. First story, Greta is about dealing with men
in charge, men controlling her art, and um, I shouldn't
have been surprised, but against the backdrop of the modern woman,
it is still It was still jarring for me to
watch women with so much spirit and so little agency. Yes,
(28:56):
I believe we have some power over who we love.
It isn't something that just happened to a person. I
think the poets might disagree. Well, I'm not a poet.
I'm just a woman. And as a woman, there's no
way for me to make my own money, not enough
to earn a living or to support my family. And
if I had my own money, which I don't, that
(29:18):
money would belong to my husband the moment we got married,
and if we had children, they would be his, not mine.
They would be his property. So don't sit there and
tell me that marriage isn't an economic proposition, because it is.
Was that something that you also as a modern American
woman in a position of power now that you grappled
(29:38):
with a vent sort of how how limited their options were.
Where I am, where we are. What's possible now is
is possible because of all these generations of women who
have worked so hard to get to where we are.
And I think, to me, I feel, I feel this
deep sense of you could draw a straight line from
Louisa Mayl called to me, and what I'm able to
(29:59):
do is is indebted to what she did because she
wrote about the lives of girls and women and that
people read it and loved it, and it prepared, It
stayed in print over a hundred and fifty years. It
was translated into fifty two languages. It became important because
there was an audience for which nobody recognized, which was
girls and women. And now what I think, and I
(30:22):
have them have this discussion in the film is um
I would love those to not be uh works that
have asterix next to them. I would love them not
to be you know, women's literature, women's stories, or women's
chick flicks. I don't think that they should be, and
I don't think that they are. I think that they're
(30:44):
human stories. And something Meryl Streep said to me. She said,
we have lots of practice as women imagining ourselves in
male narratives. We've done it our whole lives because we're
always reading books and going into films and looking at
men and projecting ourselves into their stories. And I actually
think that they have huge capacities to do the same.
(31:07):
Men have a capacity to go to films or read
novels and to feel themselves within a female character like
that man said, I'm lady bird, right, Bird, that's right.
And I think that there's a fear that maybe I
don't know, I don't know where it comes from, but
maybe there's a fear that it diminishes their masculinity somehow.
But I only think it makes the expression of who
you are deeper if you can see yourself as as
(31:30):
as multiple, as many as not just um in your
narrow category. And so I think for me it's there's
many possibilities now, But still it feels like we say
they're niche. And also because i'm you know, movies are
you make them and you hope people will go see them, um,
(31:52):
and they're there. You need a lot of people, you
need money, they're expensive, so you do have these discussions
about and who's the audience, And um, you know, it's
very classic thing in Hollywood, that's say, girls will go
to boys movies and boys will not go to girls movies.
Do you think that's changing, Grata? I think it is changing,
and I think it's changing so quickly that we haven't
(32:13):
registered the change yet. And um, but I think it's
it's transforming right now. It's called empathy, after all. That's
I always say that movies are emphathy machines. That's what
they do, and so that that is, that is the thing.
And I found myself in the movie theater many times
(32:34):
feeling like I've lived through something that I haven't because
of the way the movie makes me feel, and places
and people and experiences that just connect back to to
who you are. I do think you imbue a lot
of modern uh sensibilities into this movie. For example, I
(32:55):
think the exploration of Joe's character is much otter and
more profound, given how we're reevaluating not only gender roles,
but gender identity, sexual orientation. And it seems to me
that perhaps Louisa may Alcott today, if she were here today,
(33:17):
might might not be a straight woman. Yeah, well, there's
actually really interesting um right writing that she did I
mean to start with Joe, she says, I mean, she
really does say the whole book. She wants to be
a boy, she says, the whole time. And it's hard
to look at that with the century lens, because the
(33:38):
truth is Joe wanting to be a boy. It can
be interpreted in lots of ways. One way is just well,
why wouldn't she want to be a boy? They were
they got to do options. She had none, and so
you don't always want to ascribe some category that she
didn't have. But I do, definitely I think that there
(34:01):
there was something going on. I mean the Louisa has
Um some of the letters she wrote this um she wrote,
I sometimes I believe I'm a man in a woman's body,
for I've fallen in love in love with a dozen
pretty girls, and I've never once felt that way from him.
Do you think, oh my god, we might have something
for you. But but it's you know, it's also difficult. Um.
(34:27):
I didn't want to become didactic, and I didn't want
to give her something. I didn't want to give it.
I did again. I didn't want to assign her something
or label her as something but I did want to
allow the mess of just the raw feeling to come through.
Talk about raw feelings. You also gave her permission to
(34:50):
be angry. I get in a passion, I get so savage,
I could hurt anyone and I'd enjoyed it. You remind
me of my myself. But you are never angry. I'm
angry nearly every day of my life. One of the
lines that stood out to me, and I thought it
(35:11):
has this always been in the book was um Marmy's
saying to Joe, I'm angry almost every single day of
my life, which I said, That's not what I think
of when I think of Marmy, but it's it's right there,
and I think, you know it's actually talking about it.
I I I get uncomfortable talking about anger, UM or
(35:34):
talking about, you know, feeling upset about things, because because
I still I grew up in this culture. I know
you don't want to be the angry the angry girl UM.
So you know, I think I have been given a
lot more permission to be so by by people who
(35:55):
are writing and thinking and doing. And I think UM,
for me, one of the the beautiful things about UM
writing fiction and UM and and having characters say things.
And sometimes I can allow my characters to go farther
than I feel comfortable going because I can, I can
give them all of my thoughts and feelings and and
(36:16):
let them let them let it rip. Yeah, what makes
you angry right now? Oh? Are you? Are you fitel?
What's your sort of dominant emotion emotional state right now?
My dominant emotional well, actually, my dominant emotional state right
now is is um, some sort of like frantic euphoria
(36:39):
of because I have a baby and also so it's yeah,
but so so it's kind of like you know, a
tiny baby head where you're like babies and then you're
running around and doing all this stuff. So they're so
pure and everything else is so dirty. Well it's that babies.
(36:59):
Babies are one different thing, um, which is which is nice.
But yes, I feel I feel like, um, I can
already tell that this this moment in my life I'll
look back on and say, what the hell was I thinking?
How did how did any of that come to that?
I feel like everything in my life is half done
(37:19):
and I'm always eating something as I'm running to another thing. So, um,
I don't know, I don't know, for tiredness when we
come back, our women finally getting the recognition they deserve
or not. And in the wake of Me Too and
Time's Up, has Hollywood really changed? You talked about you
(37:47):
hope that boys will want to see movies about girls,
but what about the structure of the systematic uh, sort
of misogyny that seems to be pervasive and almost every
area of American culture, but particularly Hollywood. Do you feel
like that is starting to change? You know, when Frances
McDormand talked about inclusion writers and there has been this
(38:12):
reckoning with Me Too and Times Up? But but do
you I mean you're on the inside, Gretta, you know,
is there a reason to hope? Or yes? There's yes,
it was first of all, this year was the Annenberg
study that they do every year came out and and
it's it's this year in terms of the top grossing films.
(38:34):
It's it's better. I mean, it's not there, it's not
there women UM, women of color. Uh. Still there's a
long way to go in terms of UM authorship and
ownership and a diversity of storytellers. But it's it is
getting better. And I do think studios are pushing themselves
and to to hire to hire women, to hire different
(38:59):
kinds of stories, tillers, to to put women in charge
of projects. I actually, I actually think this is changing substantively,
which is what is so hopeful. And then I also
think it's changing in terms of you know, the women
who drove Times up. What was so meaningful about that
was it was this this coming together and this organizing
(39:23):
and this funding to help other women in all industries,
and how and how that mobilized into something that that
kind of community, I think is what's um what's so
powerful and what is continuing UM And it can't change overnight.
I mean, it does take time, but you feel like
(39:44):
that was the kick in the pants the industry needed.
You know, It's so interesting because I think it was.
It was, But I also think, um, this has been
growing in terms of hiring more female directors for a while,
that this had been growing, and then it just you know,
kicked it kicked it to a new level. And yet
(40:06):
the Golden Globes were announced, not one female director was nominated,
and that's so aggravating to so many of us. Well,
I think it was such a banner year for female
filmmakers and UM, but I think I think actually every
year has has been a has a banner year, and
every year I see lots of female directed films that
(40:28):
I think are just as worthy and just as important
to hold up. And I mean I was very happy
that in Foreign Film Portrait of Lady on Fire and
UM and The Farewell both were acknowledged in Foreign Film.
But come on, and no, no, no, I mean that,
but that's that's good. That's good, that's that's important. But
certainly I think acknowledgement of UM the the tremendous work
(40:52):
being done this year, and I mean about last year too.
It happened last year. I mean, it did happen last year,
and it happened actually the year before that. So I mean,
you know what the thing that I I keep going
to is, but we're still making them, and we're still
we still keep making these strides and the and and
it is still happening. So PS, you're making remarkable movies
(41:17):
that are doing really well and really resonating. And PS,
we still don't know about the Academy Awards. Hope. The
thing that I see is like, you know, I see Lulu,
I see I see Mari who did direct the Farewell,
who directed Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. I see Molina
who directed Queen and Slim, and that's just a few.
(41:38):
This is happening, and I feel like it's also um,
you know, it's gathering steam, it's gathering energy. I love movies,
I love filmmakers. I think everyone who's up there deserves
to be up there. I just want, I want. I
want these women recognized. I want to sell collectively recognized
because there's so much good work. Oh and Loreen Scafaria,
who did Hustle. I mean, there's so many. I feel
(42:00):
like every time I hesitate even I need my list
of names just that I can go to. But it's
just um, and that's a real step forward, right that
you actually have a list of names. I have a
list of names every year. I really do. I have
a list of names every year. And and I think
when we're just going to keep making and and I
(42:22):
think people want to see it. You're such a huge talent, Greta.
I'm so happy for your success, and you're gonna be
inspiring so many young women for your work. The same
with Lena and all the other women that you mentioned.
So you're just opening up so many possibilities for them
because you know, listen, you're how old thirty four? Oh no,
(42:44):
I'm thirty sixty six. Sorry, but you know, isn't it
crazy that a thirty six year old woman didn't really
have anybody when you were in college to say, oh, look,
that could be met. It is interesting. There was a
group of them, and I don't want to downplay because
now now that now I know more, but there was
(43:05):
I learned about Jim Campion and right, and then Sofia
Coppola happened while I was in school. But it was
just sort of at the beginning. It was at the beginning,
and um, um, I learned about Lena vert Muller, who
I had the privilege of giving an award to, I mean,
Catherine Bigelow. But it was it was a small group
(43:25):
and now it feels like it's getting a much bigger
and that's um, that's good. It's a better band. Well,
it sure is, and we're so glad you're in it.
Thank you, Thanks Greta, Thanks everyone so much for listening.
I hope you enjoyed hearing from Greta as much as
I did. And by the way, if you're overwhelmed, by
(43:45):
the tsunami of information exploding on your iPhone every single day.
Check out my morning newsletter Wake Up Call. Go to
Katie currect dot com to subscribe, and of course follow
me on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Oh LinkedIn too. I'm
everywhere people until Next Time and my Next Question, I'm
(44:06):
Katie Couric Later. Next Question with Katie Couric is a
production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. The
executive producers are Katie Kuric, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas,
and Tyler Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Macalouoso and
Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers
(44:26):
are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens. Editing is by Dylan Fagin,
Derek Clements, and Lowell Berlante. Our researcher is Barbara Keene.
For more information on today's episode, go to Katie Currek
dot com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at
Katie Couric. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit
(44:49):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you
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Host
Katie Couric
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