November 22, 2022 • 32 mins
Gayle King (CBS Mornings, Oprah Daily) and Brooke talk about the difficulties of divorce, the biggest co-parenting challenges, and the one unforgettable piece of advice Maya Angelou gave Gayle when things got tough. Plus, Gayle reflects on working at CBS during the height of the #MeToo movement and shares a "now what" moment from her childhood that has come to define her life.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
What do you do in life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose the job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brook Shields and
this is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as
told by people who lived them. Each week, I sit
down with a guest to talk about the times they
were knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, Now what, Brooke. I don't know if
(00:49):
you remember. We were at the airport, I think it
was Laguarty or JFK and you came up with your
daughter and you said Hi Gale, and I go, Hi,
you go, it's me, Brookshields. I go, I know who
you are. You have on your book field face. I
do because I never assume that people know. I do
the espressily when I don't have on my quote TV face.
(01:10):
My guest today is the incredible Gail King. Gail is
an Emmy Award winning journalist. She's the co host of
CBS Mornings and she is the editor at large of
Oprah Daily. She's also a mom, a new grandmother, and
has the enviable distinction of being one of Oprah's favorite people.
(01:32):
As far as journalists go, Gail is incredible and she
works harder than almost anyone I know. She's interviewed everyone
from the Obama's to headline making CEOs, newsmakers to celebrities, everybody,
and she's covered some of the world's biggest now What
moments with grace and insight. I am a huge fan
(01:54):
of hers as a person, as a talent, and I
was so honored that she agreed to do the show
and share some of her many insights and many of
her now What moments. So here is the inimitable Gail King. Hi,
Gail King, Hi, Hi? How many have you been up
for hours and hours and hours since three four? And
(02:17):
this is after flying back from l A yesterday, So
I'm kind of like this, trying to sit me up
breath position. Okay, Well, we're gonna make this as painless
as possible, and I'm sure it's already here bedtime. No,
I'm all good. I'm all good. I'm all good. If
someone on the rare occasion if someone didn't know who
you were, how would you introduce yourself If it's a
formal introduction, I just say Gail King at CBS, from
(02:40):
CBS and Oprah Daily. You know, I hate when you
go to speak somewhere and they have your bio and
it lists everything you've ever done, and I think, God,
I'm bored listening to this myself. So I would much
rather just say your current job. I like saying that
I'm the mother of two. That's what I like more
than anything, the mother of two. And now we can
add grandmother of one. But I mean, congratulations, thanks, I'm
(03:03):
so that's where I was this weekend with my grandson.
When you say grandmother, people instantly think old gray hair.
Are you sitting in a rocking chair? And that's so
not me. I don't think that will ever be you.
And and we've talked a lot about that, and I
have to say that, you know the whole adage about
ages just a number, but it really is how you
(03:24):
put yourself forth in the world. And I was so
happy for you when I when I knew you were
having a little grand baby. Me too. What does he
call you? Well, he's too little to say anything. I'm
leaning towards Gaya because that means mother Earth, although I
got niced about it because they said because it sort
of sounds like Gail, which I like that. And I
(03:45):
also like gan Gan because I think that sounds friendly
and fun. What what was your mom's name? Well, so
she didn't want to be called grandma or anything like that.
She wanted to be called tuts tuts, and my mother
in law wanted to be called cha cha So watcha.
That's why I'm in therapy. Still. Um, that's pretty good.
Twots and cha chaw. That says a lot about who
(04:08):
they are for sure. Um, I think i'd probably pick
like B B because it's got You've got B and Brooke.
I don't know that Brooke. That's why I kind of
want a G name. That's why I kind of want
a G name. I have no hang ups about age.
You know, when I turned fifty. I don't know how
they do it, but the A A r P sends
you a magazine and I thought, God, I actually called
(04:32):
him and said, please take me off your mailing list.
And now I look at that and I went, yeah,
I don't know why I should have sent that message.
I should have just embraced it. But I was so
freaked out when I got a a r P. And
I think we have to change that whole way of thinking.
We really do. And I think that that across the
board is a really important thing. You've had such an
(04:52):
enviable career. But I know that it's that I called
the show now What, because it really focuses on the
now what moments that we have in our lives. And
I'm really interested to hear what some of your most
unexpected now what moments that you encountered in your career
(05:15):
or I mean, you know, it started with me, now What.
When I was going to college, I had no idea
what I was going to major in. I can remember
sitting there back then they had the college guides with
all the classes you're supposed to declare your major. Who
the hell knows what they're gonna when they're a freshman,
and I remember thinking, I don't like math, I don't
like science. I do like English, I do like writing.
(05:38):
I do like psychology because I still love listening people's problems,
still do giving unsolicited advice. So I said, I'm going
to choose psychology. So that's literally how random it was.
Now what you graduate from college and it's sort of
your first job. Now what I mean all along the ways?
I mean, I look at when I first got married Brook,
when I first got married, the only time I got married.
(06:01):
I'm now divorced. It's the only time I got married.
I can remember looking in the mirror. You know, my
mom was helping me get dressed for my wedding, and
I remember saying, Mom, how do you know that this
is till death to this part? How do I know
for sure this is right? And she goes, oh, you're
just having cold feet. Everybody feels that way. And I
(06:22):
would never tell my daughter that. I don't think you're
supposed to have cold feet on the day you get married.
I don't know. I think you should, at least in
that moment, feel I am ready he or she is
a person of my dreams. I don't think girls should
be told it's cold feet. Everybody has jitters. I can
probably pretty safely say that that my first husband and
(06:43):
I had equally cold feet on on our wedding day.
And I knew. I knew as much as I didn't
want to lose him as a person in my life,
there was something in my gut that just was too
terrified and fears. Ever, I knew it, but I was
never a quitter. I I would you know, there was
(07:06):
too much pressure, you know, to be divorced as well.
I mean I too, am divorced, and that was not
one moment I had a big now I mean I
got divorced. My mom died around the same time, so
I had a couple of now what's going on at
the same time. Then you do have to have it
now what? And for me, the focus was my children
were young, you know, they were four and five, and
(07:26):
I just thought I'd read all the books about how
screwed up kids can be from divorced. Well, what I
know is that's not true. As long as children feel
safe and secure, they will be fine. Is it ultimately better?
I think if they have two parents who love them
and they're in the same home. For me, that was
the way I wanted to go, but it didn't work
out that way. But kids don't necessarily have to be
(07:48):
damaged or destroyed because you're divorced. But my main thing
was focusing on them. But I think you're so right
about it being about love and about support. I mean,
I was four when my dad got remarried, and neither
one of my parents ever spoke ill of the other.
And I think that that's important. I think that's very important.
(08:08):
And I I think it's painful when I see parents
who were so upset with themselves that they can't really
focus see what it's doing to the children. And I
had a therapist say to me once, you know, parents
have to love their children more than they dislike or
hate their spouse. And I think that's very good advice.
Rather than focus on you know what he did to me?
(08:31):
You know what she said, It just gets you know
where nobody cares. What you really do have to focus
on is what is going to be best for the children.
When you let that guide you, it can work out. Okay,
Easier said than done, though, when you're piste off and hurt,
easier said than done. So that must have been one
of the biggest challenges for you in dealing with that.
(08:51):
How did you put aside that pain and that hurt. Well,
you know, I think number one, I was married to
someone who on monogamy very challenging, which is difficult in
a marriage. I think I'm one of these people. Brook.
I believe that when you get married for better at worse,
it should include monogamy, so that wasn't something that he
(09:12):
cherished the way I did. I was very lucky in
that my life didn't have to skip a beat in
terms of where we lived. He moved out of the house,
I stayed in the house. I was still working. The
children's lives didn't have to be disrupted that way where
you have to change schools or moved to a different house,
or moved to a smaller house, or get new friends.
(09:33):
So from that standpoint, knock home would I say? It
was very fortunate. I was anchoring TV at the local
news station, so I didn't have to worry so much
about that. I just had to navigate how we were
going to co parent. When I was so angry, I
think if I didn't have children, I would have never
spoken to him again. I remember when I was my
idea to get divorced and he said to me, I
(09:56):
feel lucky that we didn't have children, because I would
not have made it's easy for you. Well, and I thought, WHOA, Okay,
but then, but you are permanently tied, at least tied
until they're eighteen. And now you know, I wish him well,
I'm long past the anger, long long long. I was
over that many years ago, and now we both I
reached out to him about when the grandchild was born,
(10:19):
whenever there's graduations, so I can still have you know,
as a matter of fact, we're planning Luca his christening
and he's coming and bringing his girlfriend. And I'm very
cool with that, very cool. That's it's a very good
it's a it's important again because this is about Luca,
this is about your daughter, your son in law. You know,
none of that is their battle. Was there were there
(10:40):
any people in particular who you really were relied on
during that period of time to kind of help you
get through Well, my kitchen cabinet has always been Oprah,
of course, but at the time, Oprah, listen, I gotta
tell you this, Oprah, who's never been married, never has
had children. She is one of the best therapists ever.
(11:01):
If she had a second career, it would be, honest
to God, she's one of the best therapists ever. So
it was Open and my mom because when it first happened,
when I first caught him, I didn't tell anyone but
Open and my mother. I didn't tell my sisters and
I'm close to my sisters. I didn't tell work. I
went to work like everything was fine, which is crazy
when you're just uh, when you're devastated inside, to go
(11:23):
on TV Gayl King, I witnessed news like everything is fine,
but it was really Oprah, My mom and and therapy
got me through. And was there a reason you didn't
tell anybody? I know? I think about that. Um, I
think I would have run through the street screaming it.
I know, I know, Well, it's you don't want anybody
(11:44):
to know, really, And then I think, why am I
acting like I did something wrong? Or why am I embarrassed?
Because at the time, I didn't really know what was
going to happen. I didn't know was I going to
stay in the marriage? Was I not going to stay
in the marriage. If you told everybody all these horrible
things and then you get back together with him, then
they're looking at you like your cuckoo for Coco Bubbs.
(12:04):
So I really didn't. I really didn't. I told my
mom and Oprah. I knew I could trust them. When
did you meet Oprah? Because it feels like you've always
known each other. It does feel like that, you know,
(12:24):
we worked at a TV station in Baltimore. Years ago.
We were twenty one and twenty two. Now we're sixty
seven and sixty eight. I always say she's older, but
we were born. She was born in January. I was
born in December of the same year. And you know,
it's just one of those things that we just kind
of clicked right away. Were we had very similar philosophies
(12:45):
about life, the people we liked, the people we didn't like,
and we clicked. And those years must have been brutal
work wise. I mean, I can't even fathom the hours,
the finding your own voice being heard. Do you think
you sort of practically trauma bonded in those years? I
(13:07):
think I just sort of, you know, I when I
was a baby reporter, I was working in Kansas City.
My first job on television was in Kansas City, and
I interviewed Jesse Jackson and Jesse Jackson in the interview,
he was saying, um, how long have you been at
the station? And I said, oh, I'm new, I'm just starting.
(13:28):
And he said, well, all I can say to you
is dr King because if he meets everybody calls everybody doctor.
I don't know why, but everybody meets a doctor, he
goes doctor king. All I can say to you is
be excellent, because excellent is the best deterrent to racism.
And I've never forgotten that book and anything I did.
I just thought, I'm gonna work really hard at it.
(13:49):
So I didn't have these things about, oh, i'm a
woman of color, I gotta make sure I do this,
or I have to navigate this. I just thought, I
just want to be good at my job. And I
didn't start up with a game plan of you know,
in two years, I'm going to do this. In three years,
I want to do this, or I want to end
up here. That is not what I did. I just
worked really hard and one thing led to another, lead
to another, lead to another. Now did I encounter racism.
(14:13):
If I did, it wasn't to my face. It wasn't
something that I was physically aware of in doing this job.
I did know enough, though, when I was first looking
for a job that if they already had one black
woman on staff, I think, well, I better not apply there,
because chances are they don't want to have to really brook.
White people never think about that. They never think, well,
(14:35):
there's already one white woman there, so I better not
apply there. So it's an I mean, not surprised, but
it's that's an incredible burden to also have to Did
you feel like you had to be better than other people? Um,
I don't know if it said I felt better. I
just felt I just wanted to be good and I
(14:57):
do feel that in the in the business world, sometimes
I see this happen. Somebody of color will make a
mistake and they're instantly dismissed. Somebody else who's not of
color will make a mistake and they go, well, they're
just having a bad day. They'll get another chance. So
I am cognizant of that in all areas of life.
Do you think it's getting better? I'd like to think so.
(15:19):
I'd like to think. So. The playing field is still
not leveled. It isn't it's still not leveled. And as
you were climbing the ladder, so to speak, outs you
were getting did it. Did did any of that change
for you? You know? I look at my whole career
has been pretty positive for me. You know. I had
to give a speech once about resilience or self esteem.
(15:40):
I said, how do I feel about self esteem? How
do I feel about resilient because I really do look
at my life and I'm not trying to paint it
as Pollyannish, I'm not. But when I look at my life,
my life has been really pretty good. You know. I've
had trauma in terms of losing parents, going through a divorce.
(16:03):
I can remember calling talking to Maya Angelou when I
was going through um divorce and the death of my mother,
and I said, oh my god, my it just can't
get worse than this. It just can't. And she said,
you take that back right now, right now. And I
said why she goes because a minute you said, she said,
(16:23):
do you have your health yes, do you have your
legs yes, do you have your hands yes? Or your
children healthy yes? Don't ever say it just can't get
any worse than this. So I've always thought about that
too when I'm sitting around complaining about something. She said
to me once I was complaining about something at work,
and she said, just stop it, and I said, wait,
(16:45):
I'm not done telling you the story. She said, whining
is so unbecoming because it lets people know there's a
victim in the neighborhood. So I'm not one of these
people by nature that sits around bitching and moaning about stuff.
I'm a very solution oriented person. Now. I think a
lot of it has to do with your attitude. I mean, obviously,
but in the earlier years of the news, were there
(17:07):
moments that you just even considered giving it all up
or change. Nope, none of the hours didn't get to you. Nothing. Well,
I hate the hours, hours and hours shitty. I hate
I hate my work hours, but I love the job
so much I don't I always say, don't cry from
the Argentina. When you took the job, you knew these
were the hours. They aren't changing. They aren't changing. But
(17:28):
I never, to your original question, I never had a
moment where I thought, God, I can't do this anymore,
or I don't want to do this anymore. I never
had that. And when I when I left local news
and came to New York to work on the Oprah magazine,
I got out of television. And then when nine eleven happened,
because we launched a magazine in two thousand one, nine
(17:49):
eleven happened, and I felt such sadness and such depression,
not only for the incident, of course, but that I
wasn't there covering the story in the real moment. So
my core, I know, is a TV baby. I love television,
but I never had a moment where I thought, I
don't I don't like this job and don't want to
do it. I mean, that must have been really hard
(18:10):
for you to not be out the front center when
that's in your nature. Has there been a very big
change in you know, I mean just these past few
years with what the not, with the pandemic, and with
chaotic years in politics and Washington and political turmoil and
the me too and the racial turmoil, and it's just
(18:33):
it just feels that it's scariest scary. Have you seen
that change what you do? I don't know if it's
changed what we do. I find that I worry a
lot more now. I'm very worried. It's interesting to me.
You know, the news, especially the way we do it
at CBS, is so fact based. You know, we're just
(18:55):
trying to give you the facts and then let the
audience decide. And now we live in a society or
even with presented with the facts, people a don't believe it,
or people just blatantly outright lie. And I'm still trying
to figure out how to navigate that. You know, everybody
can have their own opinion. I do believe that, but
(19:17):
you're not entitled to your own set of facts. I
agree with that wholeheartedly. And I and I or even
if you hear you know that Sandy Hook situation. I mean,
it is so shocking to me. It's so interesting because
that's when you see something. I mean, these are you
can see it, you can see it happening. You know,
there's a visual to it. But when it's something like
(19:37):
the me too thing, I'm so I'm fascinated by that,
just because I think it it's not about it's like
he said, she said, She said, she said, how do
you reconcile? But it's sad, he said, she said, in
many cases in the me too thing, I think the
me too I would say to people, it's not mysterious
about what's appropriate and what's inappropriate behavior. I don't believe,
(19:57):
I really don't. The beauty of the me Too movement
for me is that young women coming up today in
most cases, will be believed, and it is my hope
that they will speak up. I can remember being in
my early twenties in Baltimore, guys saying very inappropriate things
to me, like, you know, I'm sitting there typing up
my little typewriter and him whispering in my ear something
(20:20):
very grotesque, and all I could do is just go he.
I didn't even know what to do with that. What
he would like to where he would like to lick me?
Use your own imagination. A guy, A guy who I
didn't even know very well. Oh girl, you look so good.
I sure would like to lick here. And I just
went he. I didn't even know what to say to that. Nowadays,
(20:42):
women will not just he he he. I think there's
I think there's a good that's come out of it,
and that women are speaking up. On the other hand,
I worry about the pendulum swinging too far the other way,
because not everybody is a me two case. You can't
lump everybody together, So I do get concerned about that.
How did your experiences at CBS sort of inform you?
(21:04):
And I mean, that was a very public thing that
you would once again had to Yeah, it was very
public and very um. That was very difficult. That was
very difficult, But I never lost sight of who we
are as an organization and what we represented. That was horrible,
That was a horrible thing we went through, and I
thought CBS took very swift action on that. But I
(21:27):
don't feel defined by that. I don't Did it change
your friendship? I mean, Charlie Rose was one of them. No,
you know, listen, Charlie Rose and I worked together for
many years, and I you know, I considered him a friend.
I haven't seen or talked to him in a while.
The friendship has to change because we're no longer working together.
But I'm not going to be out here vilifying him.
(21:49):
It was a very very, very unfortunate, unpleasant situation that
we all went through there, all of us, and we
should say, you know, he he always denied it, He
was never arrested. It was just it was just a
very tough time for the network. Yeah. I've spoken to
some other anchors who have had to deal with with
(22:09):
that too, and they said, it's very it's confusing, and
it's hard, and you're all collectively going through something. Yeah.
I said at the time that it's very difficult to
feel anger and anguish in the same space. And that's
how I felt. That's how I felt. I listened to
(22:32):
you talk to people and you make and they leave
a conversation or an answer of a question, and they
leave that encounter as if they've been bullied somehow. I
hope so, I hope you're right about that, you know.
I know for me, when I was in elementary school,
I went to elementary school in Turkey, and I've told
(22:54):
the story before about a girl. Her name is Janet,
and she had a wooden leg, a wooden leg, which
is unusual when you're a little kid. And she was
actually a friend of mine. Four of us used to
play together and we used to call her Janet, Janet
peg leg, peg leg, and she would laugh with us.
She would laugh with us, she would make fun of
her leg. And so one day her dad came to
(23:18):
the class and he came into the class. I didn't
know who he was, and he said, I'm Mr So
and So. Could I please speak to Gayl King? And
he named the three other girls, and he took us
out in the hall, and Brookie got down on his
knees and he said, I'm sure you all are very
nice girls, but every time you make fun of my
(23:39):
daughter's leg and you call her peg leg, she comes
home and she cries. And I'm going to ask you
the story still so bothers me. I'm going to ask
you not to do that again every time. I mean,
I look at it. It so bothers me that he
I didn't see that. I didn't see that, I said,
But she laughs with as he goes, Oh, yes, of
(24:01):
course she does. But it hurts her. And I'm asking
you please don't do that again. And I have never
never forgotten that. And I thought to myself, I never
want anybody, anybody to feel my words or my actions
hurt their feelings. And so that encounter left a deep, deep,
(24:25):
deep impression all my life, and I said, I would
never ever ever knowingly, knowingly knowingly hurt somebody. But you know,
if your words can hurt, your words can also help
and make someone feel better, you know. I just I
think that that's a hard thing to do. And you've
(24:46):
had many moments when you've been interviewing people and you've
had to ask the hard questions and people have freaked
out or what's going through your head when you're encountering that. Well,
I believe that any question can be asked. I just
think that there's the right time, the right place, the
right tone, and the right intention. And I'm never trying
(25:06):
to do a gotcha. I'm never ever trying to do
a gotcha, even if you're there to talk about something
that's uncomfortable for you or something that puts you in
a bad light. What we always do is give you
the platform to tell your story however you want to
tell it. Let you tell your story. Now we have
to call bs on you if you're not telling the truth,
but we can give you the platform to tell whatever
(25:27):
it is you want to tell. And I never think
that the interviews about me. It's always about you. Have
you ever sort of been in in a situation where
you're thrown and you had to pivot quick? Yeah? I
mean it was years ago. I was interviewing Frank Zappa.
You remember Frank Zapple, So Frank Zappa would have to
(25:48):
rate is one of my most awkward interviews. And his
children's names are Dweezel and Moon Unit. Yes, I'm most
very good friends with both of them, and i'mt to
his other. So I was talking to him and I said,
you know, Deweesel and moon Unit in particular, very unusual names.
Where did they come from? I figured there had to
be a story behind it, And he goes, well, that's
(26:10):
a dumb question. It's a name like Gail, And I
just went okay. And then I saw another interview where
he had a whole big story about where the name
moon Unit came from. For whatever reason that day, he
didn't feel like talking about it. But it was it
was live, and it was extremely uncomfortable. I really didn't
even know what to do other than I went okay.
(26:32):
I didn't know what to do. But that's aggressive. Well, Brook,
I was so thrown because a I didn't think it
was a dumb question. He goes, it's a name like Gail.
You got any other questions? I mean he said, of
just like that. Well, plus you weren't saying it with
a judgment. You weren't saying you know what your name
like exactly. I was just curious. But that was awkward
and that was hard. Do you think it? I mean,
(26:54):
I think it can be very very hard for women,
and especially women over forty two. Keep the seat at
the table, have a seat at the table, have a
voice in in the room. We're told that there's so
many limited opportunities, and they pit women against each other,
and have you found that to be true? Well, I
(27:15):
do think it's important to have a seat at the
table very much. So I'm trying to figure out who
is the people that pit women against each other. Number One,
there are always stories about Nora and I because we
used to anchor together, you know, and they'd say Nora
and Gayl Gail and Noora they don't get along. And
we would look at this this and say, where is
this coming from? I mean, and and and no matter
(27:36):
how many times you said it's not true, the stuff
you're saying never happened, it didn't matter. I never see
them doing this two men. I still haven't been able
to figure this out. I think it's almost too much
for people to believe that that women can actually uplift
each other and support each other, and it's easier for
I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it
(27:59):
doesn't exist because I've heard all sorts of horror stories
and where you just thank God, guys, I happen to
think that this pie is big enough and there's always
room for somebody good. I still believe that there's always
room for somebody good. And I always like working with
people who are better than I am because it forces
(28:20):
you to raise your game. And you always learned something,
so I never look at it. When if someone knew
is coming in, I never look at them as a threat.
Oh my god, I wonder what is happening here. I
don't feel that. I don't feel that I was thinking
before talking to you today, even though I think we're friends,
you know, even you've communicated enough and and I feel
(28:41):
that I definitely feel that with you. But I thought, Brook,
this is a now what moment for you? Because I
hold you in such self esteem. Um. And and I'm
always thrown by that. Brook, I'm always thrown by that. Always. Why,
Like I met somebody at the airport yesterday and and
she just walked up to me and said, could I
(29:02):
just shake your hand? It's just such an honor to
me you And I'm like like talking to and I go, okay,
nice to meet you too. I mean, I I just
I'm always thrown by that because I'm so um. I
feel that I'm working and struggling and doing the same
(29:23):
thing that everybody else does in terms of trying to
keep all the trains running on time and get everything
done in a in a day. Have you ever thought of,
like taken a moment to actually think of how you
register and matter people. I honestly have not why I
don't good question. I guess on some level, I'm thinking, like,
(29:45):
I get it when I see people who look at
Oprah for instance, or Maya, or I look at Jennifer
Lopez because I just think, wow, and here she is
at fifty two, killing it and and just you know,
redefining everything. Or I look at Stacy Abrams and I
can see where people are like or Liz Cheney. I
(30:05):
may not agree with Liz Cheney philosophically, but I am
in awe of her and how she's just standing up
for what she believes is right, calling it out, even
though it's costing her huge capital politically, she is still
standing up to say this is wrong, this is wrong.
So I get why people admire those type of people.
(30:27):
I'm just a girl out here who's doing a job,
who really loves a job that she does and wants
to be good at it. Well, I mean, I'm gonna
have to fight you on that one a little bit. Only,
I guess because I feel akin to that. You know,
my therapist had to talk me through a lot of
this because you know, I feared it being arrogant, or
(30:47):
what if I really started to believe, believe that I
was all that? You know, who the hell do I
think I am? You know? And she said, you know,
just step into the bigness of what of what it
is that you've survived and lived through and and shared
with people. You sharing a story of something that was
(31:08):
difficult to you is a type of a gift. Yeah.
I haven't thought about it like that, but yesterday somebody,
the flight attendant said, miss King, I just want to
thank you what you've done for women. And the guy
sitting next to me went like, who are you, ma'am?
And I just went invented women? Okay, I didn't know.
(31:32):
Honest to god, I didn't know what to say. That
was the one and only gayl King. And if you
want to hear more from her, tune into CBS Mornings,
which airs every weekday on CBS Now. What is produced
(31:53):
by the wonderful Julia Weaver with help from Darby Masters.
Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed
by Bahed Fraser and Christian Bowman. A special thanks to
Nicki Etore and Will Pearson. If you liked this episode,
please subscribe to the show on the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.
What do you do in life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose the job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brook Shields and
this is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as
told by people who lived them. Each week, I sit
down with a guest to talk about the times they
were knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, Now what, Brooke. I don't know if
(00:49):
you remember. We were at the airport, I think it
was Laguarty or JFK and you came up with your
daughter and you said Hi Gale, and I go, Hi,
you go, it's me, Brookshields. I go, I know who
you are. You have on your book field face. I
do because I never assume that people know. I do
the espressily when I don't have on my quote TV face.
(01:10):
My guest today is the incredible Gail King. Gail is
an Emmy Award winning journalist. She's the co host of
CBS Mornings and she is the editor at large of
Oprah Daily. She's also a mom, a new grandmother, and
has the enviable distinction of being one of Oprah's favorite people.
(01:32):
As far as journalists go, Gail is incredible and she
works harder than almost anyone I know. She's interviewed everyone
from the Obama's to headline making CEOs, newsmakers to celebrities, everybody,
and she's covered some of the world's biggest now What
moments with grace and insight. I am a huge fan
(01:54):
of hers as a person, as a talent, and I
was so honored that she agreed to do the show
and share some of her many insights and many of
her now What moments. So here is the inimitable Gail King. Hi,
Gail King, Hi, Hi? How many have you been up
for hours and hours and hours since three four? And
(02:17):
this is after flying back from l A yesterday, So
I'm kind of like this, trying to sit me up
breath position. Okay, Well, we're gonna make this as painless
as possible, and I'm sure it's already here bedtime. No,
I'm all good. I'm all good. I'm all good. If
someone on the rare occasion if someone didn't know who
you were, how would you introduce yourself If it's a
formal introduction, I just say Gail King at CBS, from
(02:40):
CBS and Oprah Daily. You know, I hate when you
go to speak somewhere and they have your bio and
it lists everything you've ever done, and I think, God,
I'm bored listening to this myself. So I would much
rather just say your current job. I like saying that
I'm the mother of two. That's what I like more
than anything, the mother of two. And now we can
add grandmother of one. But I mean, congratulations, thanks, I'm
(03:03):
so that's where I was this weekend with my grandson.
When you say grandmother, people instantly think old gray hair.
Are you sitting in a rocking chair? And that's so
not me. I don't think that will ever be you.
And and we've talked a lot about that, and I
have to say that, you know the whole adage about
ages just a number, but it really is how you
(03:24):
put yourself forth in the world. And I was so
happy for you when I when I knew you were
having a little grand baby. Me too. What does he
call you? Well, he's too little to say anything. I'm
leaning towards Gaya because that means mother Earth, although I
got niced about it because they said because it sort
of sounds like Gail, which I like that. And I
(03:45):
also like gan Gan because I think that sounds friendly
and fun. What what was your mom's name? Well, so
she didn't want to be called grandma or anything like that.
She wanted to be called tuts tuts, and my mother
in law wanted to be called cha cha So watcha.
That's why I'm in therapy. Still. Um, that's pretty good.
Twots and cha chaw. That says a lot about who
(04:08):
they are for sure. Um, I think i'd probably pick
like B B because it's got You've got B and Brooke.
I don't know that Brooke. That's why I kind of
want a G name. That's why I kind of want
a G name. I have no hang ups about age.
You know, when I turned fifty. I don't know how
they do it, but the A A r P sends
you a magazine and I thought, God, I actually called
(04:32):
him and said, please take me off your mailing list.
And now I look at that and I went, yeah,
I don't know why I should have sent that message.
I should have just embraced it. But I was so
freaked out when I got a a r P. And
I think we have to change that whole way of thinking.
We really do. And I think that that across the
board is a really important thing. You've had such an
(04:52):
enviable career. But I know that it's that I called
the show now What, because it really focuses on the
now what moments that we have in our lives. And
I'm really interested to hear what some of your most
unexpected now what moments that you encountered in your career
(05:15):
or I mean, you know, it started with me, now What.
When I was going to college, I had no idea
what I was going to major in. I can remember
sitting there back then they had the college guides with
all the classes you're supposed to declare your major. Who
the hell knows what they're gonna when they're a freshman,
and I remember thinking, I don't like math, I don't
like science. I do like English, I do like writing.
(05:38):
I do like psychology because I still love listening people's problems,
still do giving unsolicited advice. So I said, I'm going
to choose psychology. So that's literally how random it was.
Now what you graduate from college and it's sort of
your first job. Now what I mean all along the ways?
I mean, I look at when I first got married Brook,
when I first got married, the only time I got married.
(06:01):
I'm now divorced. It's the only time I got married.
I can remember looking in the mirror. You know, my
mom was helping me get dressed for my wedding, and
I remember saying, Mom, how do you know that this
is till death to this part? How do I know
for sure this is right? And she goes, oh, you're
just having cold feet. Everybody feels that way. And I
(06:22):
would never tell my daughter that. I don't think you're
supposed to have cold feet on the day you get married.
I don't know. I think you should, at least in
that moment, feel I am ready he or she is
a person of my dreams. I don't think girls should
be told it's cold feet. Everybody has jitters. I can
probably pretty safely say that that my first husband and
(06:43):
I had equally cold feet on on our wedding day.
And I knew. I knew as much as I didn't
want to lose him as a person in my life,
there was something in my gut that just was too
terrified and fears. Ever, I knew it, but I was
never a quitter. I I would you know, there was
(07:06):
too much pressure, you know, to be divorced as well.
I mean I too, am divorced, and that was not
one moment I had a big now I mean I
got divorced. My mom died around the same time, so
I had a couple of now what's going on at
the same time. Then you do have to have it
now what? And for me, the focus was my children
were young, you know, they were four and five, and
(07:26):
I just thought I'd read all the books about how
screwed up kids can be from divorced. Well, what I
know is that's not true. As long as children feel
safe and secure, they will be fine. Is it ultimately better?
I think if they have two parents who love them
and they're in the same home. For me, that was
the way I wanted to go, but it didn't work
out that way. But kids don't necessarily have to be
(07:48):
damaged or destroyed because you're divorced. But my main thing
was focusing on them. But I think you're so right
about it being about love and about support. I mean,
I was four when my dad got remarried, and neither
one of my parents ever spoke ill of the other.
And I think that that's important. I think that's very important.
(08:08):
And I I think it's painful when I see parents
who were so upset with themselves that they can't really
focus see what it's doing to the children. And I
had a therapist say to me once, you know, parents
have to love their children more than they dislike or
hate their spouse. And I think that's very good advice.
Rather than focus on you know what he did to me?
(08:31):
You know what she said, It just gets you know
where nobody cares. What you really do have to focus
on is what is going to be best for the children.
When you let that guide you, it can work out. Okay,
Easier said than done, though, when you're piste off and hurt,
easier said than done. So that must have been one
of the biggest challenges for you in dealing with that.
(08:51):
How did you put aside that pain and that hurt. Well,
you know, I think number one, I was married to
someone who on monogamy very challenging, which is difficult in
a marriage. I think I'm one of these people. Brook.
I believe that when you get married for better at worse,
it should include monogamy, so that wasn't something that he
(09:12):
cherished the way I did. I was very lucky in
that my life didn't have to skip a beat in
terms of where we lived. He moved out of the house,
I stayed in the house. I was still working. The
children's lives didn't have to be disrupted that way where
you have to change schools or moved to a different house,
or moved to a smaller house, or get new friends.
(09:33):
So from that standpoint, knock home would I say? It
was very fortunate. I was anchoring TV at the local
news station, so I didn't have to worry so much
about that. I just had to navigate how we were
going to co parent. When I was so angry, I
think if I didn't have children, I would have never
spoken to him again. I remember when I was my
idea to get divorced and he said to me, I
(09:56):
feel lucky that we didn't have children, because I would
not have made it's easy for you. Well, and I thought, WHOA, Okay,
but then, but you are permanently tied, at least tied
until they're eighteen. And now you know, I wish him well,
I'm long past the anger, long long long. I was
over that many years ago, and now we both I
reached out to him about when the grandchild was born,
(10:19):
whenever there's graduations, so I can still have you know,
as a matter of fact, we're planning Luca his christening
and he's coming and bringing his girlfriend. And I'm very
cool with that, very cool. That's it's a very good
it's a it's important again because this is about Luca,
this is about your daughter, your son in law. You know,
none of that is their battle. Was there were there
(10:40):
any people in particular who you really were relied on
during that period of time to kind of help you
get through Well, my kitchen cabinet has always been Oprah,
of course, but at the time, Oprah, listen, I gotta
tell you this, Oprah, who's never been married, never has
had children. She is one of the best therapists ever.
(11:01):
If she had a second career, it would be, honest
to God, she's one of the best therapists ever. So
it was Open and my mom because when it first happened,
when I first caught him, I didn't tell anyone but
Open and my mother. I didn't tell my sisters and
I'm close to my sisters. I didn't tell work. I
went to work like everything was fine, which is crazy
when you're just uh, when you're devastated inside, to go
(11:23):
on TV Gayl King, I witnessed news like everything is fine,
but it was really Oprah, My mom and and therapy
got me through. And was there a reason you didn't
tell anybody? I know? I think about that. Um, I
think I would have run through the street screaming it.
I know, I know, Well, it's you don't want anybody
(11:44):
to know, really, And then I think, why am I
acting like I did something wrong? Or why am I embarrassed?
Because at the time, I didn't really know what was
going to happen. I didn't know was I going to
stay in the marriage? Was I not going to stay
in the marriage. If you told everybody all these horrible
things and then you get back together with him, then
they're looking at you like your cuckoo for Coco Bubbs.
(12:04):
So I really didn't. I really didn't. I told my
mom and Oprah. I knew I could trust them. When
did you meet Oprah? Because it feels like you've always
known each other. It does feel like that, you know,
(12:24):
we worked at a TV station in Baltimore. Years ago.
We were twenty one and twenty two. Now we're sixty
seven and sixty eight. I always say she's older, but
we were born. She was born in January. I was
born in December of the same year. And you know,
it's just one of those things that we just kind
of clicked right away. Were we had very similar philosophies
(12:45):
about life, the people we liked, the people we didn't like,
and we clicked. And those years must have been brutal
work wise. I mean, I can't even fathom the hours,
the finding your own voice being heard. Do you think
you sort of practically trauma bonded in those years? I
(13:07):
think I just sort of, you know, I when I
was a baby reporter, I was working in Kansas City.
My first job on television was in Kansas City, and
I interviewed Jesse Jackson and Jesse Jackson in the interview,
he was saying, um, how long have you been at
the station? And I said, oh, I'm new, I'm just starting.
(13:28):
And he said, well, all I can say to you
is dr King because if he meets everybody calls everybody doctor.
I don't know why, but everybody meets a doctor, he
goes doctor king. All I can say to you is
be excellent, because excellent is the best deterrent to racism.
And I've never forgotten that book and anything I did.
I just thought, I'm gonna work really hard at it.
(13:49):
So I didn't have these things about, oh, i'm a
woman of color, I gotta make sure I do this,
or I have to navigate this. I just thought, I
just want to be good at my job. And I
didn't start up with a game plan of you know,
in two years, I'm going to do this. In three years,
I want to do this, or I want to end
up here. That is not what I did. I just
worked really hard and one thing led to another, lead
to another, lead to another. Now did I encounter racism.
(14:13):
If I did, it wasn't to my face. It wasn't
something that I was physically aware of in doing this job.
I did know enough, though, when I was first looking
for a job that if they already had one black
woman on staff, I think, well, I better not apply there,
because chances are they don't want to have to really brook.
White people never think about that. They never think, well,
(14:35):
there's already one white woman there, so I better not
apply there. So it's an I mean, not surprised, but
it's that's an incredible burden to also have to Did
you feel like you had to be better than other people? Um,
I don't know if it said I felt better. I
just felt I just wanted to be good and I
(14:57):
do feel that in the in the business world, sometimes
I see this happen. Somebody of color will make a
mistake and they're instantly dismissed. Somebody else who's not of
color will make a mistake and they go, well, they're
just having a bad day. They'll get another chance. So
I am cognizant of that in all areas of life.
Do you think it's getting better? I'd like to think so.
(15:19):
I'd like to think. So. The playing field is still
not leveled. It isn't it's still not leveled. And as
you were climbing the ladder, so to speak, outs you
were getting did it. Did did any of that change
for you? You know? I look at my whole career
has been pretty positive for me. You know. I had
to give a speech once about resilience or self esteem.
(15:40):
I said, how do I feel about self esteem? How
do I feel about resilient because I really do look
at my life and I'm not trying to paint it
as Pollyannish, I'm not. But when I look at my life,
my life has been really pretty good. You know. I've
had trauma in terms of losing parents, going through a divorce.
(16:03):
I can remember calling talking to Maya Angelou when I
was going through um divorce and the death of my mother,
and I said, oh my god, my it just can't
get worse than this. It just can't. And she said,
you take that back right now, right now. And I
said why she goes because a minute you said, she said,
(16:23):
do you have your health yes, do you have your
legs yes, do you have your hands yes? Or your
children healthy yes? Don't ever say it just can't get
any worse than this. So I've always thought about that
too when I'm sitting around complaining about something. She said
to me once I was complaining about something at work,
and she said, just stop it, and I said, wait,
(16:45):
I'm not done telling you the story. She said, whining
is so unbecoming because it lets people know there's a
victim in the neighborhood. So I'm not one of these
people by nature that sits around bitching and moaning about stuff.
I'm a very solution oriented person. Now. I think a
lot of it has to do with your attitude. I mean, obviously,
but in the earlier years of the news, were there
(17:07):
moments that you just even considered giving it all up
or change. Nope, none of the hours didn't get to you. Nothing. Well,
I hate the hours, hours and hours shitty. I hate
I hate my work hours, but I love the job
so much I don't I always say, don't cry from
the Argentina. When you took the job, you knew these
were the hours. They aren't changing. They aren't changing. But
(17:28):
I never, to your original question, I never had a
moment where I thought, God, I can't do this anymore,
or I don't want to do this anymore. I never
had that. And when I when I left local news
and came to New York to work on the Oprah magazine,
I got out of television. And then when nine eleven happened,
because we launched a magazine in two thousand one, nine
(17:49):
eleven happened, and I felt such sadness and such depression,
not only for the incident, of course, but that I
wasn't there covering the story in the real moment. So
my core, I know, is a TV baby. I love television,
but I never had a moment where I thought, I
don't I don't like this job and don't want to
do it. I mean, that must have been really hard
(18:10):
for you to not be out the front center when
that's in your nature. Has there been a very big
change in you know, I mean just these past few
years with what the not, with the pandemic, and with
chaotic years in politics and Washington and political turmoil and
the me too and the racial turmoil, and it's just
(18:33):
it just feels that it's scariest scary. Have you seen
that change what you do? I don't know if it's
changed what we do. I find that I worry a
lot more now. I'm very worried. It's interesting to me.
You know, the news, especially the way we do it
at CBS, is so fact based. You know, we're just
(18:55):
trying to give you the facts and then let the
audience decide. And now we live in a society or
even with presented with the facts, people a don't believe it,
or people just blatantly outright lie. And I'm still trying
to figure out how to navigate that. You know, everybody
can have their own opinion. I do believe that, but
(19:17):
you're not entitled to your own set of facts. I
agree with that wholeheartedly. And I and I or even
if you hear you know that Sandy Hook situation. I mean,
it is so shocking to me. It's so interesting because
that's when you see something. I mean, these are you
can see it, you can see it happening. You know,
there's a visual to it. But when it's something like
(19:37):
the me too thing, I'm so I'm fascinated by that,
just because I think it it's not about it's like
he said, she said, She said, she said, how do
you reconcile? But it's sad, he said, she said, in
many cases in the me too thing, I think the
me too I would say to people, it's not mysterious
about what's appropriate and what's inappropriate behavior. I don't believe,
(19:57):
I really don't. The beauty of the me Too movement
for me is that young women coming up today in
most cases, will be believed, and it is my hope
that they will speak up. I can remember being in
my early twenties in Baltimore, guys saying very inappropriate things
to me, like, you know, I'm sitting there typing up
my little typewriter and him whispering in my ear something
(20:20):
very grotesque, and all I could do is just go he.
I didn't even know what to do with that. What
he would like to where he would like to lick me?
Use your own imagination. A guy, A guy who I
didn't even know very well. Oh girl, you look so good.
I sure would like to lick here. And I just
went he. I didn't even know what to say to that. Nowadays,
(20:42):
women will not just he he he. I think there's
I think there's a good that's come out of it,
and that women are speaking up. On the other hand,
I worry about the pendulum swinging too far the other way,
because not everybody is a me two case. You can't
lump everybody together, So I do get concerned about that.
How did your experiences at CBS sort of inform you?
(21:04):
And I mean, that was a very public thing that
you would once again had to Yeah, it was very
public and very um. That was very difficult. That was
very difficult, But I never lost sight of who we
are as an organization and what we represented. That was horrible,
That was a horrible thing we went through, and I
thought CBS took very swift action on that. But I
(21:27):
don't feel defined by that. I don't Did it change
your friendship? I mean, Charlie Rose was one of them. No,
you know, listen, Charlie Rose and I worked together for
many years, and I you know, I considered him a friend.
I haven't seen or talked to him in a while.
The friendship has to change because we're no longer working together.
But I'm not going to be out here vilifying him.
(21:49):
It was a very very, very unfortunate, unpleasant situation that
we all went through there, all of us, and we
should say, you know, he he always denied it, He
was never arrested. It was just it was just a
very tough time for the network. Yeah. I've spoken to
some other anchors who have had to deal with with
(22:09):
that too, and they said, it's very it's confusing, and
it's hard, and you're all collectively going through something. Yeah.
I said at the time that it's very difficult to
feel anger and anguish in the same space. And that's
how I felt. That's how I felt. I listened to
(22:32):
you talk to people and you make and they leave
a conversation or an answer of a question, and they
leave that encounter as if they've been bullied somehow. I
hope so, I hope you're right about that, you know.
I know for me, when I was in elementary school,
I went to elementary school in Turkey, and I've told
(22:54):
the story before about a girl. Her name is Janet,
and she had a wooden leg, a wooden leg, which
is unusual when you're a little kid. And she was
actually a friend of mine. Four of us used to
play together and we used to call her Janet, Janet
peg leg, peg leg, and she would laugh with us.
She would laugh with us, she would make fun of
her leg. And so one day her dad came to
(23:18):
the class and he came into the class. I didn't
know who he was, and he said, I'm Mr So
and So. Could I please speak to Gayl King? And
he named the three other girls, and he took us
out in the hall, and Brookie got down on his
knees and he said, I'm sure you all are very
nice girls, but every time you make fun of my
(23:39):
daughter's leg and you call her peg leg, she comes
home and she cries. And I'm going to ask you
the story still so bothers me. I'm going to ask
you not to do that again every time. I mean,
I look at it. It so bothers me that he
I didn't see that. I didn't see that, I said,
But she laughs with as he goes, Oh, yes, of
(24:01):
course she does. But it hurts her. And I'm asking
you please don't do that again. And I have never
never forgotten that. And I thought to myself, I never
want anybody, anybody to feel my words or my actions
hurt their feelings. And so that encounter left a deep, deep,
(24:25):
deep impression all my life, and I said, I would
never ever ever knowingly, knowingly knowingly hurt somebody. But you know,
if your words can hurt, your words can also help
and make someone feel better, you know. I just I
think that that's a hard thing to do. And you've
(24:46):
had many moments when you've been interviewing people and you've
had to ask the hard questions and people have freaked
out or what's going through your head when you're encountering that. Well,
I believe that any question can be asked. I just
think that there's the right time, the right place, the
right tone, and the right intention. And I'm never trying
(25:06):
to do a gotcha. I'm never ever trying to do
a gotcha, even if you're there to talk about something
that's uncomfortable for you or something that puts you in
a bad light. What we always do is give you
the platform to tell your story however you want to
tell it. Let you tell your story. Now we have
to call bs on you if you're not telling the truth,
but we can give you the platform to tell whatever
(25:27):
it is you want to tell. And I never think
that the interviews about me. It's always about you. Have
you ever sort of been in in a situation where
you're thrown and you had to pivot quick? Yeah? I
mean it was years ago. I was interviewing Frank Zappa.
You remember Frank Zapple, So Frank Zappa would have to
(25:48):
rate is one of my most awkward interviews. And his
children's names are Dweezel and Moon Unit. Yes, I'm most
very good friends with both of them, and i'mt to
his other. So I was talking to him and I said,
you know, Deweesel and moon Unit in particular, very unusual names.
Where did they come from? I figured there had to
be a story behind it, And he goes, well, that's
(26:10):
a dumb question. It's a name like Gail, And I
just went okay. And then I saw another interview where
he had a whole big story about where the name
moon Unit came from. For whatever reason that day, he
didn't feel like talking about it. But it was it
was live, and it was extremely uncomfortable. I really didn't
even know what to do other than I went okay.
(26:32):
I didn't know what to do. But that's aggressive. Well, Brook,
I was so thrown because a I didn't think it
was a dumb question. He goes, it's a name like Gail.
You got any other questions? I mean he said, of
just like that. Well, plus you weren't saying it with
a judgment. You weren't saying you know what your name
like exactly. I was just curious. But that was awkward
and that was hard. Do you think it? I mean,
(26:54):
I think it can be very very hard for women,
and especially women over forty two. Keep the seat at
the table, have a seat at the table, have a
voice in in the room. We're told that there's so
many limited opportunities, and they pit women against each other,
and have you found that to be true? Well, I
(27:15):
do think it's important to have a seat at the
table very much. So I'm trying to figure out who
is the people that pit women against each other. Number One,
there are always stories about Nora and I because we
used to anchor together, you know, and they'd say Nora
and Gayl Gail and Noora they don't get along. And
we would look at this this and say, where is
this coming from? I mean, and and and no matter
(27:36):
how many times you said it's not true, the stuff
you're saying never happened, it didn't matter. I never see
them doing this two men. I still haven't been able
to figure this out. I think it's almost too much
for people to believe that that women can actually uplift
each other and support each other, and it's easier for
I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it
(27:59):
doesn't exist because I've heard all sorts of horror stories
and where you just thank God, guys, I happen to
think that this pie is big enough and there's always
room for somebody good. I still believe that there's always
room for somebody good. And I always like working with
people who are better than I am because it forces
(28:20):
you to raise your game. And you always learned something,
so I never look at it. When if someone knew
is coming in, I never look at them as a threat.
Oh my god, I wonder what is happening here. I
don't feel that. I don't feel that I was thinking
before talking to you today, even though I think we're friends,
you know, even you've communicated enough and and I feel
(28:41):
that I definitely feel that with you. But I thought, Brook,
this is a now what moment for you? Because I
hold you in such self esteem. Um. And and I'm
always thrown by that. Brook, I'm always thrown by that. Always. Why,
Like I met somebody at the airport yesterday and and
she just walked up to me and said, could I
(29:02):
just shake your hand? It's just such an honor to
me you And I'm like like talking to and I go, okay,
nice to meet you too. I mean, I I just
I'm always thrown by that because I'm so um. I
feel that I'm working and struggling and doing the same
(29:23):
thing that everybody else does in terms of trying to
keep all the trains running on time and get everything
done in a in a day. Have you ever thought of,
like taken a moment to actually think of how you
register and matter people. I honestly have not why I
don't good question. I guess on some level, I'm thinking, like,
(29:45):
I get it when I see people who look at
Oprah for instance, or Maya, or I look at Jennifer
Lopez because I just think, wow, and here she is
at fifty two, killing it and and just you know,
redefining everything. Or I look at Stacy Abrams and I
can see where people are like or Liz Cheney. I
(30:05):
may not agree with Liz Cheney philosophically, but I am
in awe of her and how she's just standing up
for what she believes is right, calling it out, even
though it's costing her huge capital politically, she is still
standing up to say this is wrong, this is wrong.
So I get why people admire those type of people.
(30:27):
I'm just a girl out here who's doing a job,
who really loves a job that she does and wants
to be good at it. Well, I mean, I'm gonna
have to fight you on that one a little bit. Only,
I guess because I feel akin to that. You know,
my therapist had to talk me through a lot of
this because you know, I feared it being arrogant, or
(30:47):
what if I really started to believe, believe that I
was all that? You know, who the hell do I
think I am? You know? And she said, you know,
just step into the bigness of what of what it
is that you've survived and lived through and and shared
with people. You sharing a story of something that was
(31:08):
difficult to you is a type of a gift. Yeah.
I haven't thought about it like that, but yesterday somebody,
the flight attendant said, miss King, I just want to
thank you what you've done for women. And the guy
sitting next to me went like, who are you, ma'am?
And I just went invented women? Okay, I didn't know.
(31:32):
Honest to god, I didn't know what to say. That
was the one and only gayl King. And if you
want to hear more from her, tune into CBS Mornings,
which airs every weekday on CBS Now. What is produced
(31:53):
by the wonderful Julia Weaver with help from Darby Masters.
Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed
by Bahed Fraser and Christian Bowman. A special thanks to
Nicki Etore and Will Pearson. If you liked this episode,
please subscribe to the show on the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.
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