November 14, 2023 • 26 mins
Singer, songwriter, and activist Joan Baez chats with Brooke about her new documentary “I Am Noise,” and shares why she chose now to reveal intimate new details about her personal life and music. Joan also reflects on some of the biggest moments of her 60-year career (including her performance at The March on Washington), how our voices shape our identity, and what it means to be courageous.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, Now, what are there any other risks
(00:50):
that you sit there and look back at and go, God,
oh my god, I can't believe I did that.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I think probably Saria comes out on top of that,
because I was just in snipe rally, you know. But
there again, I'm protected by my own denial, just blocking out,
blocking out my mortality, and my mortality I hadn't really
run into until nineteen seventy two. In her noise, I thought,
(01:20):
oh god, yeah, I could die here, and kind of
don't really believe until it's in your face. And by
the way, every atheist there says Oh God, say, oh God.
They're praying like thunder at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
My guest today is one of the leading voices of
her generation. Joan Biaz is a singer, songwriter, political activist,
and more. Her legendary soprano made her famous, but it
was her role in the counterculture of the nineteen sixties
that made her an icon. She stood with doctor Martin
Luther King Junior at the March on Washington, performed at Woodstock,
(02:06):
fought to integrate schools. The list goes on. I was
admittedly starstruck during our interview, especially when she said we
should go get a cup of coffee, but mostly because
I had just watched I Am Noise, an incredible new
documentary about Joan's life. It chronicles her incredible career, her
(02:26):
efforts to uncover and heal from childhood trauma, her relationships,
and her activism. I'm blown away by her life's story
and honored that she took the time to share a
little of her wisdom with me. Here is Joan Bias.
Joan Bias. I can't believe I'm actually talking to you.
(02:47):
This is such a huge honor, and I just want
to say thank you for your time, and just for
deciding to spend any time with me.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I'm delighted to be here, are you, beautiful woman?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I was watching your documentary I am Noise. I recently
was part of a documentary about my own life, and
watching it and being in it was a very surreal
sort of revisitation of a lot of things in my life.
And I was so impressed by you and your career
and your messaging and your voice and your history. Why
(03:23):
did you decide that this was the appropriate time to
re examine all of that and share it with the public.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, a question goes for the whole film, and the
singing and the family, sisters and growing up and all
of it. Why did I decide? And it was about
wanting to leave an honest legacy, wanting to just go ahead.
I mean, I've got nothing left to lose. I'm eighty two,
(03:53):
my family's gone, so for a lot of the sensitive
material that this was the time to do it. It
came out as I would have hoped. It stays understated,
but you get the general idea of what my entire
life was, and also things like the tapes from Birmingham,
(04:14):
you know, Hi Mummy and Popsy I'm going to meet
Martin Luther kingdomarw. I mean, how crazy is that? So
I don't have to tell the story. It tells itself
from tapes I made when I was twenty two, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And you kept it all. I mean you kept it.
Was amazing seeing your doodles and your your handwriting and
your love for your family is evident.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It is. First of all, my mother kept everything. I
didn't keep a thing, and I had no idea it
was in that storeroom, nothing And when I walk in
and the film, it's the first time I've ever been
in there, so surprise, surprise, I've learned a lot. Yeah,
I've learned a lot from watching the film.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What did you learn the most? What struck you the
most from watching it?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I think things like my son, it's just the depth
of what he was dealing with. I knew he was
dealing with, you know, my not being present for so
many years. I didn't know how deep, how deeply it
affected him, and how marginal he felt, you know, And
I get it about feeling marginal. Hearing my sisters say
(05:23):
what they really felt about me. You know, you kind
of guess, but it's hard for you it's hard for
them to really say what they said face to face
with one of the directors, and they love My older
sister never talked to anybody anybody, wouldn't let anybody take
a photograph. But Karen O'Connor, one of the directors, they
were friends, and she just put the camera there and
(05:45):
Pauline started to talk. So I learned from that and
from my son, and then some of the some of
the therapy tapes I had, you know, I mean, I
want to get rid of all the rest of them.
I don't even know what they say. I just know
they were a lot of them, and that I turning
the keys over to the directors. That was part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
The opening up of that storage, like the just it
was such a I don't know if the director intended that,
but that's sort of that roll up and then being
confronted with all of this in the film. The film
examines your whole life up to the current day, from
the beginning, through your diaries through home videos. It's quite
(06:30):
extraordinary the amount of material that exists and that has
been documented, and it really it's very moving to watch.
And there's one journal entry when you were I think
you were about thirteen, and you say, I think of
myself hardly a spec Then I see there is no
use for this small dot to spend its entire life
(06:52):
doing things for itself. It might as well spend its
time making the less fortunate specs enjoy themselves. Where did
you develop that? Where did that come from? At thirteen?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You know, probably well it had to have come from
whatever in my life had been so far. And my
family at that point weren't officially Quakers but pretty much
as close to. No, actually they actually were. And I'd
been subjected to quicker meeting, which kids are not crazy about.
You should have to sit there and be quiet, but
(07:26):
it does affect you anyway. No, And I think going
to bag Dad, which is in there a little bit,
and seeing the poverty and people who had absolutely nothing,
sick and all of that. People respond in different ways.
I mean, my sister will all respond slightly differently, but
whatever my makeup is, it was devastating to me. And
(07:51):
I remember one day I was on a train and
I couldn't have been more than ten or twelve, and
in my mind I saw train going parallel to us.
I mean it wasn't for real, but I saw and
I saw a little girl basically another little me, and
(08:11):
I was thinking I didn't want anybody to hurt that
little girl, that if she didn't want to be hurt,
then I didn't want, you know. I looked at her
and thought, oh, this represents kids, and none of us
wants to be hurt. And we you know, we all
want to be loved. And you know, I would have
these little epiphanies when I was pretty young. They saved
(08:33):
my life also, but.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
They're also there. It's you taking care of that little
girl in you. Somewhere in there, you knew you wanted
to feel safer than life maybe made you feel or
was unfolding around you, maybe didn't feel as safe.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Self care wasn't a word back then, but yeah, I
mean that's must have been what the whole thing was about.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I just was so surprised that the degree that you
suffered from panic attacks and depression and dissociation. Do you
remember when that started?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, I mean I was fragile as a little girl,
and I didn't realize it. You know, we didn't have
any words for panic attacks back then. It's just seeing
you're crazy people, and the crazy person went to see
a psychiatrist. It was really not something anybody talked about.
So but early on, yeah, I was. You know, my
mom says something about we you know, she but something's
(09:32):
bothering her and we don't know what that is, and
you know, and it confounded my lovely mom who wanted
to take care of her daughter and didn't know quite
how to deal with it all. So, yeah, I went
through a life of it until I hit fifty and
started dealing with it.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Said you said it one moment, you said I was
just too crazy at the time, and that is that.
I don't think you were crazy at all. I think
you were coping. I think were you know, I used
to carl into the sink and cry and spurts and
then get up and have to memorize lines. And you
know that's not that's not crazy. I mean you, how
(10:10):
did you like?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Broke my heart when I heard you call yourself crazy,
because I I, that's a trigger for me, because it
is you are coping, you're sensitive, you're an artist, you're
a little kid. You're traveling all around in quite a
bohemian way of life. Was music a tough form of
escape or yeah? That help?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I mean since music did both because I was I
would have crippling stage fright, but I'd go out there,
and I know that that gave me. I mean, I
guess in the film it says when I really started
getting that recognition, I went from thinking of myself as
a skinny, dumb Mexican. Literally, that's how I saw myself
as a well the madonna. That's a good why not
(10:52):
off through that? But I began developing, you know, some self,
some self worse, and I was proud. I loved my
I can always consider it a gift, so I can
talk about it. However, I like my job has been
maintenance and delivery since I was fifteen. Yeah, so it
gave me me.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
You were such an active participant in the seminal moments
in our history, whether it's the March on Washington, or
helping into great schools, or Woodstock or the list just continues,
Vietnam War protesting. Do you think that your motivation for
that stemmed from anything in particular.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that there was great sadness that I didn't
know about when I was little, and I remember, you know,
the interviewers would say I was a twenty one or something.
Why are seeing all those sad songs. I don't know
why were you saying we shall overcome with me please,
(12:08):
that there was a diet. You know there was a
depth of sorrow in me, and that was you asked
it earlier. That was one way to deal with it,
with singing those songs that were expressing something I didn't
really know about yet.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well, I encourage everybody to see this documentary because of
the honesty and because of hearing your voice, and hearing
your voice at different stages, even when you're taping messages
to your parents and you're on the train and you're
talking about the sunrise or the mountains or whatever it is,
you really do get an understanding of your psyche to
(12:47):
a certain extent, you and your sweetness juxtaposed with your strength.
The juxtaposition of both of those things all the time
really does come through in the documentary. And I think
people will feel that I.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Was just going to say, I think we're allowing them
to feel in some way, as I'm not telling people
what to feel. What we've discovered that this is unlocked things.
For many people come up and say exactly that, whether
it was communicating with their family or whether it was
trauma childhood trauma, et cetera. I didn't this is icing
(13:24):
on the cake for me. It wasn't. I didn't go
out to make a film and make everybody else feel better.
But it's given. You know, it's open doors for people,
which is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
The documentary really does dive deeply into your mental health
and discovering at what at such a young age, how
you are grappling with that, and discovers that abuse was
part of the family narrative. We hear tapes in therapy
and we see you examine the roots of your anxiety.
(13:56):
I feel like you've sat with this for so many years.
But the willingness to be to examine it with regards
to how you can heal I think as generous. I don't.
I don't think maybe you set out to make other
people happy, But I do think sharing experiences that are
(14:18):
less than perfect are important. Yes, But it does. I
think you examine your memories.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, it does, and I that was the healing journey. No.
I think everybody ought to see a therapist at some
point because we're all we all get so lost and
we go turn to friends and they're trying to please us,
and or turn to a friend who just pisses us off.
But if you can go somewhere where you're going to
get a straight answer or you're going to find your
(14:49):
own straight answer, I think it's really important. And just
just to make myself crazier then you say, I'm not,
I do that my way of talking about I talk
to trees. Now. I remember when Charlie McClain talked about,
you know, talking to trees. I thought, oh man, what
a fruitcake, you know, And I come completely around the
(15:13):
other way. They're a big part of my life that
I go to. There's one special one and I just
take my problems there. And if you speak to a
tree and listen very carefully, you are I get answers.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well that's that's great. I mean I've been going to
the same therapist for almost thirty five or maybe a
little bit over almost thirty eight years, and I got very,
very lucky. And you know, hearing your own voice, hearing
your own belief and feelings about things, is a huge gift.
(15:49):
The show is called now What because it's about pivotal
moments in our lives that, really, looking back, good or bad,
they were you know something in your life that was
specially specially formative. If you were to look back, are
there any that come to mind?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
What comes to my mind first is the goodness that
I got from my parents that comes before worrying about
the problems. Was that I have to have survived partly
because they loved me and I love them. And the
importance of the Quakerism, I mean Quakerism. You really learned
(16:33):
that human life is more important than the nation state.
So here we are the nation states pile up, you know,
one after another, and kids go on dying for that.
So at a very early age, I was thinking about
those things and for that I'm grateful. In the in
the movie, my older sisters has that globe and she's
(16:54):
pointing to it the place sort of symbolizing all the
places that we've been, and she said, Pops wanted to
travel around meet different people to show us that we're
sort of we're all the same basically, you know. And
that's probably where that speck came from, that little speck
of a person that my parents both must have helped
(17:15):
me form.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That was there a person that you came into contact with.
I mean, you've known so many icons like Martin Luther
King Jr. And James Baldwin and Patti Smith, who is
a I love her, Bob Dylan, Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs
gave me my first computer, katies me too. Any is
there anybody? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Was there anybody in particular that made an impression on you?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Oh? There have been people, No, I mean the first
ones that come to mind are Hallville, who was became
the president of Czech Republic and been a dissident. I
always go for these dissidents because they've paid the price,
taken the risk and paid the price, and I just
admire so much. It's what we don't have, broke, we
(18:03):
don't have. I mean, we have a lot of people
doing a lot of good things, and it's really difficult
in this political atmosphere which is all about bullying, you know,
and hatred and fear and this people there are people
who are doing good things and I don't know where
this rambling I'm doing started. But social change, really serious,
(18:27):
social change, meaningful, can't happen until people are willing to
take a risk. And we need to be more tuned
into that and hopefully more willing to step out of
our comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And not letting fear, not letting fear, you know, really
guide us as much as it wants to do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think courage is contagious, and
courage is not that you're fearless, but it is that
you're afraid and you do it anyway. So most of us,
to be courageous means to face the demons, whether they're
personal and internal or whether it is this sick world
(19:11):
we're living in.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
But I mean I also think you like people have
said things I've done, written about are courageous, and I've
never thought about it as courageous. I just thought about
it as necessity because very rarely, I think, does one
really feel courageous unless something is simple, and then that's
not really courage. But you took risks. I mean, are
(19:35):
there moments that from your youth and your career that
you still can't believe that you experience?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah? There are, and I think it's a blessing. I
think denial is our friend because as I'm walking through
those threetes, who great Mississippi, I mean you're either in
denial or dumb to do that, because you're going to
get hurt. No, I mean denial about say climate change.
If we didn't stay in denial, maybe ninety percent of
(20:02):
the day, it wouldn't be worth living.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
You talk about being the right voice at the right time,
and I'm so moved by the sound of your voice now.
It resonates differently, but there's something about the richness of
your voice now. Albeit the younger sound was extraordinary and
(20:36):
unique and there was a clarity and a timbre to it,
But hearing your voice now is extremely moving. Do you
think that there's any metaphor in that psychologically with how
far you've come and of doing all the work.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, I was busy not liking my voice for the
last number of years, and it's because I was trying
to make it in something it can't be anymore. And
the more I accept it. I mean, I don't sing much,
but people have asked me recently to do a couple
of things. I mean, I took the guitar off the wall,
which is where it's lived since I quit touring, and
(21:14):
started to see whether I could my fingers are going
to stay spaghetti, or whether the muscle memory would come back.
It came back enough, and I actually when I quit
trying to make notes that I couldn't make. That's where
all the tension was coming from and that was making
it not fun. And I would say, although I don't
spend much time at it, I've found spots where I'm
(21:36):
really happy with the sound of the voice and accepting
that sort of like accepting wrinkles. For me, it just is.
It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
But there's no botox for the vocal cords.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, But I think anytime we try to compare ourselves
to something that was, I think we come up short.
I hope you found joy again in your voice, because
so many of us have and do. But looking back
at your songs and your activism, did you do it
(22:14):
for the greater good or was there a part of
you that just was being defiant or self destructive?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't think self destructive. I think the positive part
of it is that I am proud of every one
of those challenges that came along and I did. I
don't think I went off on the wrong track at
any point. I think then the film alludes to it.
I was addicted to it, which show, you know, whatever
made it impossible to me to be really present with
(22:47):
my son. Something in there was so difficult for me
that I would take off you know, and I would
do something valuable and something good, but I could have
stayed home.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
When you say that you your son, you were not present,
do you mean that just because of your schedule or
do you mean that emotionally both both.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I mean the schedule physically took me away, but being
there but not really being present for him, I kind
of knew. I mean, I know that, and I knew
it already, but to hear more from him about what
that actually felt like, and you know, to hear you know,
my mom surrounded me with really good people, but there's
(23:31):
nothing can really take the place of a parent. So
you know, I had a lot of gut punches while
I was watching and the healthy ones because I learned
from them.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And to see your son, you and your son on
tour for the quote unquote, I don't want to admit it.
I will not I will not be I will not
be accepting the farewell tour as a farewell tour. But
that's not for me to decide. Seeing you know, you're
his only mom, you know, and seeing the two of
you to other and seeing you two performed together, there's
(24:03):
a huge amount of healing in that, and you can
feel it and I don't think it's ever too late
in any way. We all have guilt. For I have
a huge amount of guilt for being so kidnapped by
postpartum depression with my first daughter. And you know and
hold that, and I think, what you it's it's a
(24:26):
very it's a beautiful thing anyway to see you both
on stage together, and so I'm glad for that.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
When people ask me what is it I'm most proud
of in my life, it really isn't the accolades and
the whatever, all that stuff and the praising and the
and the awards, and that it really is. And I came,
this came to me really clearly that my son and
I were able to reach each other. We had to
(24:55):
work really hard at it. We needed a therapist or
a referee or a something. But still we go back.
If there's a hitch, we go back again. Because the
wounds were deep and it will be processing now from
here on out. But that's good news for people that
you can actually do that, but you need help. You
(25:16):
just can't do that on your own.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
That was Joan Baez. To learn more about her incredible story,
check out I Am Noise, available everywhere on November twenty First,
that's it for us today. Talk to you next week. Now.
What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
(25:47):
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, Now, what are there any other risks
(00:50):
that you sit there and look back at and go, God,
oh my god, I can't believe I did that.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I think probably Saria comes out on top of that,
because I was just in snipe rally, you know. But
there again, I'm protected by my own denial, just blocking out,
blocking out my mortality, and my mortality I hadn't really
run into until nineteen seventy two. In her noise, I thought,
(01:20):
oh god, yeah, I could die here, and kind of
don't really believe until it's in your face. And by
the way, every atheist there says Oh God, say, oh God.
They're praying like thunder at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
My guest today is one of the leading voices of
her generation. Joan Biaz is a singer, songwriter, political activist,
and more. Her legendary soprano made her famous, but it
was her role in the counterculture of the nineteen sixties
that made her an icon. She stood with doctor Martin
Luther King Junior at the March on Washington, performed at Woodstock,
(02:06):
fought to integrate schools. The list goes on. I was
admittedly starstruck during our interview, especially when she said we
should go get a cup of coffee, but mostly because
I had just watched I Am Noise, an incredible new
documentary about Joan's life. It chronicles her incredible career, her
(02:26):
efforts to uncover and heal from childhood trauma, her relationships,
and her activism. I'm blown away by her life's story
and honored that she took the time to share a
little of her wisdom with me. Here is Joan Bias.
Joan Bias. I can't believe I'm actually talking to you.
(02:47):
This is such a huge honor, and I just want
to say thank you for your time, and just for
deciding to spend any time with me.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I'm delighted to be here, are you, beautiful woman?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I was watching your documentary I am Noise. I recently
was part of a documentary about my own life, and
watching it and being in it was a very surreal
sort of revisitation of a lot of things in my life.
And I was so impressed by you and your career
and your messaging and your voice and your history. Why
(03:23):
did you decide that this was the appropriate time to
re examine all of that and share it with the public.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, a question goes for the whole film, and the
singing and the family, sisters and growing up and all
of it. Why did I decide? And it was about
wanting to leave an honest legacy, wanting to just go ahead.
I mean, I've got nothing left to lose. I'm eighty two,
(03:53):
my family's gone, so for a lot of the sensitive
material that this was the time to do it. It
came out as I would have hoped. It stays understated,
but you get the general idea of what my entire
life was, and also things like the tapes from Birmingham,
(04:14):
you know, Hi Mummy and Popsy I'm going to meet
Martin Luther kingdomarw. I mean, how crazy is that? So
I don't have to tell the story. It tells itself
from tapes I made when I was twenty two, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And you kept it all. I mean you kept it.
Was amazing seeing your doodles and your your handwriting and
your love for your family is evident.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It is. First of all, my mother kept everything. I
didn't keep a thing, and I had no idea it
was in that storeroom, nothing And when I walk in
and the film, it's the first time I've ever been
in there, so surprise, surprise, I've learned a lot. Yeah,
I've learned a lot from watching the film.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What did you learn the most? What struck you the
most from watching it?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I think things like my son, it's just the depth
of what he was dealing with. I knew he was
dealing with, you know, my not being present for so
many years. I didn't know how deep, how deeply it
affected him, and how marginal he felt, you know, And
I get it about feeling marginal. Hearing my sisters say
(05:23):
what they really felt about me. You know, you kind
of guess, but it's hard for you it's hard for
them to really say what they said face to face
with one of the directors, and they love My older
sister never talked to anybody anybody, wouldn't let anybody take
a photograph. But Karen O'Connor, one of the directors, they
were friends, and she just put the camera there and
(05:45):
Pauline started to talk. So I learned from that and
from my son, and then some of the some of
the therapy tapes I had, you know, I mean, I
want to get rid of all the rest of them.
I don't even know what they say. I just know
they were a lot of them, and that I turning
the keys over to the directors. That was part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
The opening up of that storage, like the just it
was such a I don't know if the director intended that,
but that's sort of that roll up and then being
confronted with all of this in the film. The film
examines your whole life up to the current day, from
the beginning, through your diaries through home videos. It's quite
(06:30):
extraordinary the amount of material that exists and that has
been documented, and it really it's very moving to watch.
And there's one journal entry when you were I think
you were about thirteen, and you say, I think of
myself hardly a spec Then I see there is no
use for this small dot to spend its entire life
(06:52):
doing things for itself. It might as well spend its
time making the less fortunate specs enjoy themselves. Where did
you develop that? Where did that come from? At thirteen?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You know, probably well it had to have come from
whatever in my life had been so far. And my
family at that point weren't officially Quakers but pretty much
as close to. No, actually they actually were. And I'd
been subjected to quicker meeting, which kids are not crazy about.
You should have to sit there and be quiet, but
(07:26):
it does affect you anyway. No, And I think going
to bag Dad, which is in there a little bit,
and seeing the poverty and people who had absolutely nothing,
sick and all of that. People respond in different ways.
I mean, my sister will all respond slightly differently, but
whatever my makeup is, it was devastating to me. And
(07:51):
I remember one day I was on a train and
I couldn't have been more than ten or twelve, and
in my mind I saw train going parallel to us.
I mean it wasn't for real, but I saw and
I saw a little girl basically another little me, and
(08:11):
I was thinking I didn't want anybody to hurt that
little girl, that if she didn't want to be hurt,
then I didn't want, you know. I looked at her
and thought, oh, this represents kids, and none of us
wants to be hurt. And we you know, we all
want to be loved. And you know, I would have
these little epiphanies when I was pretty young. They saved
(08:33):
my life also, but.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
They're also there. It's you taking care of that little
girl in you. Somewhere in there, you knew you wanted
to feel safer than life maybe made you feel or
was unfolding around you, maybe didn't feel as safe.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Self care wasn't a word back then, but yeah, I
mean that's must have been what the whole thing was about.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I just was so surprised that the degree that you
suffered from panic attacks and depression and dissociation. Do you
remember when that started?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, I mean I was fragile as a little girl,
and I didn't realize it. You know, we didn't have
any words for panic attacks back then. It's just seeing
you're crazy people, and the crazy person went to see
a psychiatrist. It was really not something anybody talked about.
So but early on, yeah, I was. You know, my
mom says something about we you know, she but something's
(09:32):
bothering her and we don't know what that is, and
you know, and it confounded my lovely mom who wanted
to take care of her daughter and didn't know quite
how to deal with it all. So, yeah, I went
through a life of it until I hit fifty and
started dealing with it.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Said you said it one moment, you said I was
just too crazy at the time, and that is that.
I don't think you were crazy at all. I think
you were coping. I think were you know, I used
to carl into the sink and cry and spurts and
then get up and have to memorize lines. And you
know that's not that's not crazy. I mean you, how
(10:10):
did you like?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Broke my heart when I heard you call yourself crazy,
because I I, that's a trigger for me, because it
is you are coping, you're sensitive, you're an artist, you're
a little kid. You're traveling all around in quite a
bohemian way of life. Was music a tough form of
escape or yeah? That help?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I mean since music did both because I was I
would have crippling stage fright, but I'd go out there,
and I know that that gave me. I mean, I
guess in the film it says when I really started
getting that recognition, I went from thinking of myself as
a skinny, dumb Mexican. Literally, that's how I saw myself
as a well the madonna. That's a good why not
(10:52):
off through that? But I began developing, you know, some self,
some self worse, and I was proud. I loved my
I can always consider it a gift, so I can
talk about it. However, I like my job has been
maintenance and delivery since I was fifteen. Yeah, so it
gave me me.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
You were such an active participant in the seminal moments
in our history, whether it's the March on Washington, or
helping into great schools, or Woodstock or the list just continues,
Vietnam War protesting. Do you think that your motivation for
that stemmed from anything in particular.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that there was great sadness that I didn't
know about when I was little, and I remember, you know,
the interviewers would say I was a twenty one or something.
Why are seeing all those sad songs. I don't know
why were you saying we shall overcome with me please,
(12:08):
that there was a diet. You know there was a
depth of sorrow in me, and that was you asked
it earlier. That was one way to deal with it,
with singing those songs that were expressing something I didn't
really know about yet.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well, I encourage everybody to see this documentary because of
the honesty and because of hearing your voice, and hearing
your voice at different stages, even when you're taping messages
to your parents and you're on the train and you're
talking about the sunrise or the mountains or whatever it is,
you really do get an understanding of your psyche to
(12:47):
a certain extent, you and your sweetness juxtaposed with your strength.
The juxtaposition of both of those things all the time
really does come through in the documentary. And I think
people will feel that I.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Was just going to say, I think we're allowing them
to feel in some way, as I'm not telling people
what to feel. What we've discovered that this is unlocked things.
For many people come up and say exactly that, whether
it was communicating with their family or whether it was
trauma childhood trauma, et cetera. I didn't this is icing
(13:24):
on the cake for me. It wasn't. I didn't go
out to make a film and make everybody else feel better.
But it's given. You know, it's open doors for people,
which is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
The documentary really does dive deeply into your mental health
and discovering at what at such a young age, how
you are grappling with that, and discovers that abuse was
part of the family narrative. We hear tapes in therapy
and we see you examine the roots of your anxiety.
(13:56):
I feel like you've sat with this for so many years.
But the willingness to be to examine it with regards
to how you can heal I think as generous. I don't.
I don't think maybe you set out to make other
people happy, But I do think sharing experiences that are
(14:18):
less than perfect are important. Yes, But it does. I
think you examine your memories.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, it does, and I that was the healing journey. No.
I think everybody ought to see a therapist at some
point because we're all we all get so lost and
we go turn to friends and they're trying to please us,
and or turn to a friend who just pisses us off.
But if you can go somewhere where you're going to
get a straight answer or you're going to find your
(14:49):
own straight answer, I think it's really important. And just
just to make myself crazier then you say, I'm not,
I do that my way of talking about I talk
to trees. Now. I remember when Charlie McClain talked about,
you know, talking to trees. I thought, oh man, what
a fruitcake, you know, And I come completely around the
(15:13):
other way. They're a big part of my life that
I go to. There's one special one and I just
take my problems there. And if you speak to a
tree and listen very carefully, you are I get answers.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well that's that's great. I mean I've been going to
the same therapist for almost thirty five or maybe a
little bit over almost thirty eight years, and I got very,
very lucky. And you know, hearing your own voice, hearing
your own belief and feelings about things, is a huge gift.
(15:49):
The show is called now What because it's about pivotal
moments in our lives that, really, looking back, good or bad,
they were you know something in your life that was
specially specially formative. If you were to look back, are
there any that come to mind?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
What comes to my mind first is the goodness that
I got from my parents that comes before worrying about
the problems. Was that I have to have survived partly
because they loved me and I love them. And the
importance of the Quakerism, I mean Quakerism. You really learned
(16:33):
that human life is more important than the nation state.
So here we are the nation states pile up, you know,
one after another, and kids go on dying for that.
So at a very early age, I was thinking about
those things and for that I'm grateful. In the in
the movie, my older sisters has that globe and she's
(16:54):
pointing to it the place sort of symbolizing all the
places that we've been, and she said, Pops wanted to
travel around meet different people to show us that we're
sort of we're all the same basically, you know. And
that's probably where that speck came from, that little speck
of a person that my parents both must have helped
(17:15):
me form.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That was there a person that you came into contact with.
I mean, you've known so many icons like Martin Luther
King Jr. And James Baldwin and Patti Smith, who is
a I love her, Bob Dylan, Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs
gave me my first computer, katies me too. Any is
there anybody? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Was there anybody in particular that made an impression on you?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Oh? There have been people, No, I mean the first
ones that come to mind are Hallville, who was became
the president of Czech Republic and been a dissident. I
always go for these dissidents because they've paid the price,
taken the risk and paid the price, and I just
admire so much. It's what we don't have, broke, we
(18:03):
don't have. I mean, we have a lot of people
doing a lot of good things, and it's really difficult
in this political atmosphere which is all about bullying, you know,
and hatred and fear and this people there are people
who are doing good things and I don't know where
this rambling I'm doing started. But social change, really serious,
(18:27):
social change, meaningful, can't happen until people are willing to
take a risk. And we need to be more tuned
into that and hopefully more willing to step out of
our comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And not letting fear, not letting fear, you know, really
guide us as much as it wants to do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think courage is contagious, and
courage is not that you're fearless, but it is that
you're afraid and you do it anyway. So most of us,
to be courageous means to face the demons, whether they're
personal and internal or whether it is this sick world
(19:11):
we're living in.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
But I mean I also think you like people have
said things I've done, written about are courageous, and I've
never thought about it as courageous. I just thought about
it as necessity because very rarely, I think, does one
really feel courageous unless something is simple, and then that's
not really courage. But you took risks. I mean, are
(19:35):
there moments that from your youth and your career that
you still can't believe that you experience?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah? There are, and I think it's a blessing. I
think denial is our friend because as I'm walking through
those threetes, who great Mississippi, I mean you're either in
denial or dumb to do that, because you're going to
get hurt. No, I mean denial about say climate change.
If we didn't stay in denial, maybe ninety percent of
(20:02):
the day, it wouldn't be worth living.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
You talk about being the right voice at the right time,
and I'm so moved by the sound of your voice now.
It resonates differently, but there's something about the richness of
your voice now. Albeit the younger sound was extraordinary and
(20:36):
unique and there was a clarity and a timbre to it,
But hearing your voice now is extremely moving. Do you
think that there's any metaphor in that psychologically with how
far you've come and of doing all the work.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, I was busy not liking my voice for the
last number of years, and it's because I was trying
to make it in something it can't be anymore. And
the more I accept it. I mean, I don't sing much,
but people have asked me recently to do a couple
of things. I mean, I took the guitar off the wall,
which is where it's lived since I quit touring, and
(21:14):
started to see whether I could my fingers are going
to stay spaghetti, or whether the muscle memory would come back.
It came back enough, and I actually when I quit
trying to make notes that I couldn't make. That's where
all the tension was coming from and that was making
it not fun. And I would say, although I don't
spend much time at it, I've found spots where I'm
(21:36):
really happy with the sound of the voice and accepting
that sort of like accepting wrinkles. For me, it just is.
It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
But there's no botox for the vocal cords.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, But I think anytime we try to compare ourselves
to something that was, I think we come up short.
I hope you found joy again in your voice, because
so many of us have and do. But looking back
at your songs and your activism, did you do it
(22:14):
for the greater good or was there a part of
you that just was being defiant or self destructive?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't think self destructive. I think the positive part
of it is that I am proud of every one
of those challenges that came along and I did. I
don't think I went off on the wrong track at
any point. I think then the film alludes to it.
I was addicted to it, which show, you know, whatever
made it impossible to me to be really present with
(22:47):
my son. Something in there was so difficult for me
that I would take off you know, and I would
do something valuable and something good, but I could have
stayed home.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
When you say that you your son, you were not present,
do you mean that just because of your schedule or
do you mean that emotionally both both.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I mean the schedule physically took me away, but being
there but not really being present for him, I kind
of knew. I mean, I know that, and I knew
it already, but to hear more from him about what
that actually felt like, and you know, to hear you know,
my mom surrounded me with really good people, but there's
(23:31):
nothing can really take the place of a parent. So
you know, I had a lot of gut punches while
I was watching and the healthy ones because I learned
from them.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And to see your son, you and your son on
tour for the quote unquote, I don't want to admit it.
I will not I will not be I will not
be accepting the farewell tour as a farewell tour. But
that's not for me to decide. Seeing you know, you're
his only mom, you know, and seeing the two of
you to other and seeing you two performed together, there's
(24:03):
a huge amount of healing in that, and you can
feel it and I don't think it's ever too late
in any way. We all have guilt. For I have
a huge amount of guilt for being so kidnapped by
postpartum depression with my first daughter. And you know and
hold that, and I think, what you it's it's a
(24:26):
very it's a beautiful thing anyway to see you both
on stage together, and so I'm glad for that.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
When people ask me what is it I'm most proud
of in my life, it really isn't the accolades and
the whatever, all that stuff and the praising and the
and the awards, and that it really is. And I came,
this came to me really clearly that my son and
I were able to reach each other. We had to
(24:55):
work really hard at it. We needed a therapist or
a referee or a something. But still we go back.
If there's a hitch, we go back again. Because the
wounds were deep and it will be processing now from
here on out. But that's good news for people that
you can actually do that, but you need help. You
(25:16):
just can't do that on your own.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
That was Joan Baez. To learn more about her incredible story,
check out I Am Noise, available everywhere on November twenty First,
that's it for us today. Talk to you next week. Now.
What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
(25:47):
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.
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