Steve Carell

The verdict is in, and everybody agrees that Michael Scott really was the world’s best boss! The incredible Steve Carell joins Brian in the studio for an extended interview to talk all things The Office. They go back to the days when they were working the best job in the world, when Michael Scott had a hunger for acceptance but didn’t know how to get it, and the emotional torture of his endless goodbyes.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Steve Carrell, and I played Michael Scott on The Office. Well,
hello everyone, Yes it is time. It's the one you've
been waiting for. I'm sure. Well. First of all, welcome
to this week's episode of the Office Deep Dive. I

(00:26):
am your host, Brian Baumgartner. I got ahead of myself.
I could not be any more excited to present my
guest today, Mr Steve Carrell. Now, Steve was the star
of the two thousand seven comedy of an Almighty Alright, No,
but I mean talk about someone who truly needs no introduction,

(00:51):
which is probably a good thing, because there's literally no
way that I could put into words just how incredible
Steve is, even though it's like my job, my entire
job is just to put things into words, and I
clearly can't. Um, maybe this is the best way to
explain it. During this conversation, the one you're about to hear,

(01:11):
Steve basically said that it is so hard to talk
about The Office without hyperbole. That he didn't want to
be like it's the greatest or you know whatever, but honestly,
that is how I feel about Steve. It's really hard
to talk about Steve without hyperbole because He truly is

(01:34):
the absolute greatest. I could go on forever, and I
I kind of do in this conversation. So let me
just say this. I hope you enjoy this just as
much as I did. Here. He is the incomparable Steve
Correll bubble Qui, I love it bubble Quigan or bubble

(02:02):
and Squeaker cookie every month, lift over from the night before.
Oh my god, are you that's so good? It's so good? God,

(02:27):
I know I was just saved your producer. Yes, where
do you you want me here? Oh my god? How
was life? I mean, sorry, I'm late. I know, I
literally just saw and I texted. I said, he's ten
minutes late. But that's now. So um, are you still

(02:48):
doing the thing where you because you bought the general store?
Right is that's that's still your? Okay? So I was
somewhere and New York or something and someone came up
and had something for me to sign somewhere. They knew
it clearly I was going to be and they had
this thing, and I said, oh, you got you got Steve?

(03:09):
I said, I don't. I don't normally see uh Steve,
And he said, once a year, you do a day?
Is this through your laughing. The year you do a
day where you sign at the general store, well they
every year this radio station does a little remote from
the porch of the general store and just to promote

(03:30):
the store, and my sister in law runs it, and
you know, it's sort of a festive kick off of
summer thing. And I go and I do an interview
with them on the porch, and like ten fift people
would show up and watch it. And then if anyone,
you know, if anyone wanted an autographer a picture, R's
day and I do with that. So this guy claimed

(03:51):
he stayed for hours it this last year was because
there were a lot more people there, because I think
with the office, I think the fact that I'm and
I'm sure you've talked a lot too many people about
exactly that. But boy, in the past couple of years,
that's changed, just that the tone of that has changed,

(04:13):
that that little get together. I mean, you're very, very
fancy movie star now, but much like how much is
it for you now? The office still oh most of it,
I mean that's right. Yeah. I um, I saw Creed

(04:34):
and on Space Force. I'm working with a bunch of
office and I think everyone feels that same sort of
It's just odd. It's odd that when we were doing
the show, and I'm sure you feel the same way,
we're sort of in a vacuum. To a certain extent.
I never got the sense that the show was a

(04:55):
hit by any means, or it was popular enough to
keep it on the air. But we didn't have people
hanging outside the sound stages. Very rarely, occasionally we'd have
a bogey stopped by, very very incredibly rare. Did that

(05:16):
ever happen? So um, and we around in the middle
of nowhere shooting the thing. So I think none of
us got a sense that, which was great because then
it was just about doing the show and having fun
and bonding and and doing good work. Everyone was so
committed to it. But yeah, these past couple of years,
I'll tell you when I really noticed it was when

(05:38):
I was taking my daughter to her college. We we
did tours and and this was to two years ago. Now,
I had no idea that it was as popular on
college campuses that it seems to become. And it kind
of freaked my daughter out a little bit because it
became a bit of a thing. And you know, she

(06:00):
was fine, but I think that was the first I mean,
and that was just a couple of years ago, the
first sense that I got that it it had changed,
you know, that temperature had changed a bit. Yeah, I
feel like, I mean, it's crazy because we were the
number one scripted show on NBC for a long time.
Were we were, but they had enough of any of it,

(06:24):
They had nothing, I guess. Yeah, but but it's so
much bigger now. Yeah, it's it's definitely changed and it's
you know, how can you not be happy about that
that people found it because I think when we were
doing it, we all felt it was special. We all
felt that there were there were elements of the show

(06:44):
that I feel like people have they see it um
more fully upon repeated viewing. Well, it was complex, and
I think more more so than I think people assumed
it was initially. I don't know. I don't want to
tout it too much because that's the other thing. I
don't want to sit back and say, oh, you know,

(07:06):
it's a it's a classic, and it's this and that
and that's why people love it. I I'm I'm surprised
frankly that it had the second life that it seems
to have and people have. We've talked about it. I've
talked to Nancy about it, my wife about why, Well,
for starters, why was it able to stay on the

(07:28):
air in the first place, because it was a remake
of a very heralded show and it did not get
good reviews out of the block and everyone. I remember
before I auditioned, I was talking to Paul Rudd and
and I'd never seen the original one, and he asked
what I was up to. This was around I think

(07:49):
it was right after Anchor Man I was going to audition,
and I told him I was going to audition for
the American version of the Office, and he said, duc
don't do it bad Dad, move dude. I mean, it's
never going to be as good like what everybody was saying.
So it's I think a miracle that it was that
it even lasted, you know, that first second season. I

(08:13):
mean it was like every we get two episodes, then
they'd move it up to six episodes, so the orders
weren't there was a lot of confidence in the show
for a long time. Yeah. My favorite review, there's a
gentleman by the name of David bian Coolie. He wrote
the following This is after the pilot where Ricky Gervais
let the bosses insecurity shine through. Steve Carrell is all

(08:36):
noise and stupidity, like a sketch comedy character, not a
real person, not just foolish, but a fool. Yeah. He
was never I mean, he was never a fan of
the show. He never was. I know him. I don't
know him personally, but I know I've read other things

(08:57):
that he's written about the show, and it was I
don't know, I don't know who he wrote for, but
that was It wasn't just him. I think it was
kind of that was pretty common. I think across the
board there was not a lot of critical love for
the show, which is interesting because I think we all

(09:22):
just disagreed. I think we felt like we were onto
something and it wasn't the British version, and it was
something unto itself. It was based on all of the
components that we're making it up. I think Greg daniels
Man one of I think his great talents is choosing people,

(09:43):
choosing people who have chemistry, both professionally and personally. Everybody
got along, I mean every people. We loved each other
on that show. I mean when I just walked in
a Zoe, I felt like crying. It's it's it was
such a special thing, I think to all of us,
and I think we're all very protective of it. And

(10:08):
you know, reviews, good, bad, it's it's okay totally. People
have their own opinions and they're entitled to them, and
I you can't take any of that too seriously. But
at the same time, I think we all had confidence
that we were doing doing something good and doing something
of value. From Diversity Day, I remember sitting in that

(10:29):
conference room going, if people give this thing a shot,
this is funny, and it's doing something different. It's looking
at the world outside in an interesting and complex way. Yeah,
do you how do you feel like the show reflected
the outside world, you know, in terms of like Diversity

(10:51):
Day or gay witch Hunt or well. Starting with the
quality of our writing staff those first few seasons, especially
before everyone became big deals and went off to their
own shows, I mean, that's what happens. You get you
get these great people like Mindy Kaling and Mike Sure,
and we had a ton of them. We had a

(11:13):
really really deep bench of writers. And when you have
a bunch of people who are that funny and that's smart. Um.
For me, the hardest part of it was servicing the script,
making sure I didn't because I get I get dialogue
every day and think, I, I can't screw this up

(11:34):
because it and it and I knew it had to
be delivered in in just the right way because or
otherwise you're not servicing this great writing. So I think
that I think and I think we all felt that
there was a responsibility to get it right because the
writer the writing was so consistent in terms of how
it reflected society, but to do it in a way

(11:55):
that wasn't too heavy handed and felt organic to what
we were doing his characters. And that was the other
great part of having Run. I mean, I was there
for seven years. You were there for nine too, to
be able to tracy evolution of a character and have
something in mind and be able to talk to the

(12:17):
writers and talk to Greg Daniels and say, what if
next season my character went in this direction, and and
then it happened. Um, And I think everyone trusted each
other to such a such a degree that you know,
that was pete that they were. They were willing to,

(12:38):
you know, not be too precious about anything. And I
think it became better because of that. Greg told me
something I did not know this, Maybe you knew this,
I mean, obviously. One thing that he did that was
unique was he sort of tried to obliterate the barriers
between the writer's room and and the actors. And because
he said, for him, this show was about behavior, and

(12:59):
you can't right behavior. You can't write body posture, you
can't write a specific look on your face, which I
thought was so interesting. That's really smart. I know I
never heard that, but it completely makes sense. And the
fact that so many of the writers were actors on
the show, not just watching. Another thing I liked was

(13:20):
that when we were on set, it was pretty much
just us and the camera crew and the director all
the time, so it felt as close to what we
were supposed to be doing. Um, you know, it was
as close to doing a documentary without actually doing one
as it could feel. But yeah, having writers there and

(13:43):
seeing how the actor's work and maybe tweak a line
or improvise and find something, and to have you know,
to have Mindy, to have Paul, to have b j
all there not just as actors but as fuel and
and having incredible suggestions or ideas or or things to

(14:05):
throw in rewrites. I mean, I don't know how much
footage there is on the cutting room floor, but you
could edit an entire season for sure, of of stories,
whole storylines that were cut out that we're hilarious and
we're just cut for time. I mean, our scripts were long,

(14:27):
and our first cuts of things they had to be
what twenty minutes, and they'd have thirty five minute cuts,
their first cut, forty minute cuts. Sometimes they just split
them in half and we'd have two shows. That happened
a couple of times. Do you remember was there anything
for you that you recall that was cut? People ask like,

(14:49):
was there anything that was cut either a story or
I mean, I there, No, I'm I don't. I just don't. No.
I mean I would see things in there and think, oh, yeah,
I remember, I remember we shot that. That's right, I know.
I recently we went back and watched the whole thing.
Claire Scanlin told me the story, which I certainly did

(15:12):
not remember. But there was an episode where Jim and
Pam are fighting, and the episode came in and it
was really long, and someone had the idea, well, let's
just make it a silent fight and it's just going
to be about looks like we're not going to have them,
We're gonna cut any exchange between the two of them,
and the episode is just going to exist as a

(15:32):
silent fight throughout the whole thing. And at the very end,
just as they're walking out to their car, they hold
hands and it just like flips the whole thing, but
the entire story that had been written and was just gone.
That's such a great That's a great move though, and
probably so much more powerful than all the dialogue they

(15:54):
could have said, you know, because that that passive, aggressive,
that subtle silent between couples can speak volumes. Not that
I would have any personal knowledge of that. I'm just
saying as a writer an actor. Um, but yeah, that's
a great move. And I think they did stuff like

(16:14):
that all the time. You know, those editors, We had
some great, great people, and so much of the story
obviously is told there, and I felt like our job
was just to supply them with as much fodder for
whatever it was going to become. But I didn't get
precious about anything, because I just knew again it's just

(16:36):
a matter of trust. I trusted Greg and Dave and
Claire and I trusted everyone in the cast and all
of those writers. That's such a great environment to work
in when you just know, do your job and they're
going to take it and crafted into something that works.
And I think everyone did that everyone. So the level

(17:00):
I don't think what people no necessarily is that as much,
if not more than anything I've ever worked on. The
universal level of commitment on that show, across the board, actors, writers, crew,
people were in and it's rare, but I think we

(17:23):
all sensed it, we all knew And it's not like
the show. We we were never a friends, we were
never We were always sort of the the outcast, you know,
the little engine for sure, and we got those kind
of reviews we never you know, there were never articles

(17:44):
written about the office back then. But I personally so
proud of the fact that, in spite of all of
the negativity that I think kind of surrounded it, at
least at first, that group was completely committed a hundred.
I I feel like we all sort of it was
like we came up together, which which helped us form

(18:07):
a very unique bond. I completely agree the relationships between
all of us um and again doing this other show
that I'm doing now. Just being able to work with
you know, five six, seven people that I had worked
with for seven years, what fifteen years ago? It just

(18:29):
try it just goes from one thing to the other
because there is there is that commonality, there is that
that sense of we we came up together. It's so
hard to talk about it without hyperbole, too, because I
find myself like, it's the great you know. I don't
want to I don't want to touted too much. I
don't want to put too much emphasis on how how

(18:53):
great we all think it was. But I mean, you know,
people can judge whatever the show is and how are
they like it, and they'll upon repeated viewings, they you know,
if they find all of this stuff in it, and
that is great. But from a personal perspective, having worked
on it was the joy like having these friendships and

(19:14):
that work experience. I knew when I was doing it
that this was going it. Nothing was going to be
better than this as a work experience. I didn't know
whether it would be the best thing I'd ever be
a part of, or I knew it would be hard
to top, certainly, But but just in terms of a
personal experience and the rewards from that, nothing will ever

(19:36):
come close to it. Yeah, And I think, you know,
for me, certainly, I don't want to go into hyperbole either,
but I think trying to at least examine the question
of why, you know, we were so close. Maybe it's
because we came up together. And to me, the the
other element was we had such a wide range of experience,

(19:58):
you know, like and myself, for example, we were like
doing check off the month before, you know what I mean,
like that and improv and stand up and sort of
all of those experiences. Bill has told me the story.
Oh my god, I don't know if you've ever heard this.
She got cast. She came in and she was watching

(20:20):
everybody improv and she said, I can't do that. So
the first season she went on her way home, drove
to the bookstore and bought books on improv, and we're
reading books she did. I never knew that. I'd never
do that either. That's shocking to me because I always
thought she was so pure, so good, like one of

(20:43):
the best improvisers of any of us, because it was
everything was completely honest, and she just listened and she
would just respond within character. That's what it is, you know,
that's that's the crux of it. Wow that I I
think all those things you say are true. I think

(21:04):
the fact that Greg was able to cast people that
it's just the chemistry was there. People genuinely cared about
each other because there were there were times that people
would be in the background for hours and just be
seen like in profile, while other scenes were taking place

(21:25):
in the foreground. And I never ever heard one complaint
by anyone. You know, it was to me, it was
the true definition of an ensemble. More than anything. I
think that's why it worked is because there were no
I don't think anyone wanted to stick out in any way.

(21:46):
I think everyone just felt a joy in being part
of that unit. When we come back, our executive producer
Ben Silverman joins our unit for a conversation about the
structure of the show and a little thing called the
director sandwich. I was talking to a couple of people

(22:19):
just about I had a French director I worked with
for a while that he taught me that the comedy
exists off the beat. It happens either quicker or it
takes longer that that pause. But did you never land
it right on the beat? I feel like our show
did really well on that. There was you know, for example,
a bad joke that then you get a reaction from Jim,
that then you get a reaction from somebody, and the

(22:40):
laugh could go sort of at any place. And there
was a lot going on between the lines there, and
the writers were aware of that. They were aware of
the pauses. They were aware of like at the end
of it it was Office Olympics. There's a scene We're
all getting our ten awards and the yogurt. The yogurt,

(23:05):
and I remember that turned into a really emotional moment
from Michael Scott because someone was giving him an award
and it was important in that moment, And I was
talking to Greg about this, and I don't think any
of us realized until we started doing it that that
scene was going to have that sort of emotional and

(23:26):
comedic residence because it wasn't scripted. It was just this
moment where Jim looks at Michael and realizes this is
a big deal, and Michael starts to cry out of
joy and pride, and it it turned into something very different.
And I think part of the for for my character,

(23:49):
part of the trick was to not let on where
the jokes were because Michael generally wouldn't He wouldn't know,
he wouldn't have an awareness that anything he was saying
was funny unless he was trying to be funny. So
to try to mask the absurdity of the line within
somebody just believing it and not commenting on it as

(24:09):
an actor while you say it, not not leaning into
the joke of the line. I think that was something
that was really tricky. Did the production style help you
do that? For sure? The way the way that that
it wasn't is the production style helped everything, um, because
there wasn't that. It wasn't intricate. The lighting took five

(24:32):
minutes and we all looked terrible all the time, so
there was no vanity involved me. That's why the networks
didn't like it. Probably we all looked like real people
and we were up. We came out of the bay
Watch age, you know, we were like we were born
of the last part. We were not. But to kind
of throw away all the vanity too was very you know,

(24:53):
that was great because no one was worried about getting
touched up all the time. We were just kind of
in our character is in doing our thing, and that
not what the show is predicated on, and so in
that sense, I think it felt more like a documentary
to Linda. Authenticity and reality and then the performance, I
mean the other level, just the camera as a character,

(25:15):
as an entirely other layer of comedy that doesn't exist
even if you're just playing out a scene. In other words,
your awareness as a character. You have your own behavior
and your intention with this character, but you also are
either playing to the camera or hiding from the camera.
It's been the bane of my existence since I've left
thee Yeah, I'm sure I revert to the other two

(25:38):
in everything I've done since the office. At least once,
I will inadvertently do a take to the camera and
I do it, and then I think, why did I
just do that? I do too. I mean, obviously we
can't use it because we're not doing it documentary here. Yeah,
you just break that walk. But it's such a weird

(26:00):
it's a havoc do you do with the family, and
it's almost impossible to break. I'm sure on Fox Catcher
I did a take to the camera, well, maybe not appropriated.
Did you say this or did Greg say this to you?
There was some discussion about the essence of Michael Scott
playing to the camera was Michael believing that if he

(26:23):
did a really good job, that maybe Jennifer Anniston would
go out with him. Do you remember that, I don't
don't actually remember. Sounds good. Somebody said that, like the
early one, I can't remember if it was beguiling the
camera gets discovered, but you think you're funny, you think
you're charming, you put your foot in it, but you
think that you're like, oh, wasn't that a good one? Subtext? Yeah, exactly. Um.

(26:49):
You know who I think was the one of the
best right off the bat was Amy Adams. I remember
when she came in to do her first episode because
it's it's sort of a tricky thing that looked to
the camera and and how hard you play it or
how subtly you play it, but she had it down.

(27:09):
I remember that first episode. She because she was aware
of the camera, but she played it in a very
different way, like because she was an outsider. She didn't
do there like did you just record what I just said?
There's like I'd forgotten that you're there, and now I
know you're there, and there's like all this other stuff

(27:29):
going on. So the camera. Yeah, the camera really you
could always use it, you know, and it was for
Michael it was free reign, you know, because he could
always be on and when the camera was documenting things
that were more vulnerable that he didn't want the camera
to see. Uh, you know, you could show the fragility

(27:52):
of the character as well, and not wanting to be
captured or kind of assuming a different character to cover
the fragility that you know, was intrinsic to him. So
that camera as a character added I think a depth
to all of the characters. It's a reflection I think
of what you want the public to see as opposed

(28:15):
to what is the reality of the situation or the
reality of the person. The layering of of all of that. Also,
as you were talking, I was thinking one of the
things that's so arresting now when you go into our
show in the world digitally of a thousand shows, and
you just see we feel black and white, you know,

(28:36):
we feel almost spa and like analog, you know, and
all of that, and yet it has so much more
of an honesty and connectivity. But I think what that
does is it frames the performance and that kind of thing.
It lets the face and the performance and the pathos
and the comedy. I'll play through character because it's not

(28:56):
the bells and whistles and everything jumping around. So much
of that was just the ensemble nature of it too,
that it's like it's like a great it's like an orchestra,
you know, there to know when to fade back and
allow the brass section to go, you know, and it's

(29:18):
their soul, where it's the violins or it's it's such
a stupid analogy, but allowing everyone to shine and everyone
to have their moment. I didn't feel like there were
all these separate components bouncing off each other. It was
like this one group energy that moved through all of
those years together and and it morphed into different shapes,

(29:39):
but it was all We couldn't lose any components of
that because it morphed as a whole. It was a
I don't know, maybe that's getting too deep into it,
but but that's the way I felt about that ensemble,
is that everyone was so strong and so vital to
the life of the whole thing. The show could shift

(30:00):
on a dime based on one thing that one character introduces,
and it might be it might be a line that
was scripted. It might have been something improvised, but everyone
else would shift with it and you could feel it,
you know, well like being a good interviewer on the radio.

(30:21):
You can tell there's a give and take and allowing
for space, and it's a it's a real talent, it's
a real ability. And I think all of that cast
had that same ability to sense where it was all going,
where next? And it was that was so exciting. Yeah,

(30:41):
it's funny too because people talk, and which is all
true about the ensemble expanding as time went on and
we got into more stories of other characters, and other
characters were able to shine, that's true. And pretty much
everybody did something in Diverse any Day, which is the

(31:01):
second episode, and you know almost everybody has a joke
or a moment um. It was being built early and
I think Ken and Greg those guys, um, do you
remember the U thirty minutes of busy work, oh early on? Yeah,

(31:23):
that that's so his thing, right down to how he
starts to see. He doesn't say action. He says go
ahead in the most in the most calm inviting way,
go ahead. Yeah, I will say, like to give him ship.
It becomes funny to me because he has the it's
not just to go ahead, it's the uh go ahead

(31:46):
like he like he always pretends as though he's about
to say something, and then what you know, after the time,
you go, man, you're not. You can't fool me anymore.
We ever talked about the director Sandwich? No, have you
ever heard of this? I don't know where I heard
this from, but it is like clockwork. It is the

(32:07):
experience I've had on every show with every director, and
I'm sure you've had the same experience. Okay, director Sandwich, Sandwich,
the director Sandwich. The first layer of bread is the
first compliment. Director comes in, it's going great. We love it.
Everybody back there loves what you're doing. The meat or
the filling is the note. Maybe you could pick it

(32:27):
up and um and maybe a little more touch of energy.
And the last piece of bread is the second compliment.
But we love it. You're doing great. Just do what
you're doing and we're just have fun. Every director does
exactly this. Just I mean, as soon as that's in
your head, you will always be aware of that. Now

(32:49):
like oh okay, now, where where is this? What is
the meat here? What is the note? The producer, sandwich
is no meat? Great job you do? You do you? Ever?
This is sort of off topic, but it's now. It's
fascinating to me when you're in a scene and you

(33:09):
get the first layer of bread, Great job, really really
doing well, um, Dave, and then turns to the other guy, right,
and there's a there's a part of you that's like,
wasn't me? Was everything I must be doing okay? And
then they give the meat to Dave and then there's

(33:32):
but you know, it's really it's really working well, and
then it's take two. Director comes back again. Great job, Dave, Right, Yes,
you know what I'm talking about. I've been Dave before. Sure,
I have been Dave. We all don't want to be Dave,
but we have all been Dad. But it's almost worse
when you're not Dave. But it's even worse than that

(33:55):
is when you are taking a scene and then you're
seeing partner, when you're trying to get it going again
and try to figure out how you're gonna save your
lousy performance. You're seen partner in a very gracious and
lovely way, says, is there anything I can do to help?
Anything I can do from my side? Like, oh no,

(34:17):
now now I'm really gave oh day, and they're just
being nice. Can I give you something to give you
something more than I'm giving so your performance is adequate
And we come back Steve and I kicked Ben out

(34:37):
of the studio to get into the true psyche of
Michael Scott. There there's a question I've never asked you.

(34:57):
This is my memory at least going back right. You
remember the differently and we would have a seven eight
page conference room scene and we would come into rehearse
and you would like kind of flip through your pages
and you weren't playing a part like the absent minded professor,

(35:17):
but my that this was like my right, It was
just like, oh wait, what are we here? How okay,
I'm standing in the front of like the idea of
like you had no idea what was going on? And
we would do it once maybe and be like okay,
do we have it? Okay? Good, and you would go
away and it was like you would finish putting on

(35:38):
your suit and then we would start rolling and it
was all there was that intentional for you, was there? No?
I mean, but I mean, like, were you like in retrospect,
I started thinking, oh, as an improver, he wants it
to be as fresh as possible. Though at times and

(36:00):
also got annoying that you were attempting to bring the
group to a place where like you were trying to
make them laugh. It was that intentional. Was that sometimes
I think we all tried to make each other last.
Of course, um in turn, boy to me, there's nothing
more boring than listening to myself talk about process. But

(36:22):
but that's there. But I'm truly curious. I will tell well,
just based on the page count every day, and and
also on how quickly lines changed, we could have rewrites
the morning up. So I just didn't have time to
memorize stuff the night before because they'd be you go

(36:43):
home and after yeah, I go to bed and wake
up and and be in the next day and and
sort of get into that day's work. But I think
it became fairly easy to remember stuff because of the
right because I think they tuned into every character's voice,

(37:05):
and they really wrote the dialogue within those voices, and
it is infinitely easier to remember lines when they make
sense within your character. So sometimes I would just have
to look at these long, chunky scenes and I put
the blocks together in terms of Okay, where are you know,

(37:28):
where are kind of our joke beats, and where are
you know where our story beats? And and what's shoe leather?
And and just kind of trying to process that and
then then not think about it, just kind of trying
to lock in the structure of it and then just
play the scene. And that was the joy of of

(37:48):
how loose it all was when we got in there
to shoot, too, because we'd have two cameras covering everything.
If you got something well, once you got it from
two separate angles, you have cutting points. You know, an
editor's dream really, because everything was covered at least by
two cameras. There was never oh, so and so said

(38:12):
something funny, but it was you know, it was a
single on somebody else, and then to try to go
back and recreate whatever it happened. They were picking up
a lot of stuff and so when things things happen
in real time, generally they were able to get it
um So there's a comfort in that too, knowing that

(38:35):
it's not like you were going to have to generate
it many many times over, and you could make every
take different. You didn't have to necessarily match what you
did the first time you could play with it, and
as actors, we could all throw stuff in and and
try it different, you know, beat for the ending or
um try some you know, some different dialogue. But in

(38:58):
terms of yeah, those those long scenes, I just I
just didn't want to waste anybody's time either, because if
I had fumfered through all of those things, and I
tried to put enough pressure on myself to lock into it,
you know, and try to not make everybody stay for

(39:22):
because I can't remember the big speech at the end
of the thing. Yeah, yeah, but that's part of it.
I mean, just just out of respect for everybody. Of course,
of course that was always just very impressive. That's it.
I'm not I'm not no, I'm not saying anything nice, um,
but but no, it was. I often wondered about that.

(39:44):
I mean, Rain Wilson, Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
The two of you together was so stupid, so so stupid,
but so funny. I recently went back and watched, I

(40:04):
went start to finish. I hadn't gone back at all
since they aired, And just the dynamic between the two
of you, it's like when you're in grade school and
there's the cool kids, right, the Ryan and Jim, and
you want to be friends with them, and then you've
got the kind of slightly more nerdy friend of yours

(40:26):
that wants to be when you're like, just call me
after school. You don't play with you later because I'm
trying to get in. I don't know. There was just
something about the dynamic between you two. He called you
a Picasso of improv. Oh my gosh, but I mean, well,
he you know, I remember auditioning with rain and we

(40:49):
instantly we're making each other laugh, like right from the start.
And I'll crack up as much as anyone, but I
try not to because I always feel like if I laugh,
it's going to ruin that whatever they're doing is so funny,
and if I crack up, it's unusable. But there there

(41:10):
are there are times that I'm sure you can watch
the show and just see tears welling in my eyes.
That was one of the hardest That was one of
the hardest things was to not you know, to not
lose it. Raindom. He's such an interesting, just an interesting
human being. He's he's such a kind, he's such a

(41:36):
dichotomy because he is he's an incredibly loving and kind
and gentle, like cares, truly, truly care, someone who cares
about the universe in a far reaching way, and a
much much better person than I am. But at the

(41:57):
same time the biggest mudgeon like crass, rude, rudinous, rude,
like unfiltered honesty, and yes, just gross sexual for no reason.
But gosh, he's He's a great guy. And there's a

(42:21):
scene towards the end when Dwight reads the letter of
reference from Michael Scott that just puts a pretty fine
point on their relationship after all of the stuff that
Michael has put Dwight through. At his core, he just
he he loves he loves him and appreciates him, and

(42:46):
understands how loyal he had been that entire time, and
had for the greater part of the series, had really
been his only advocate, and my iCal for sure understood
that he didn't make He might have resented it. He
White might have wanted more. You know, he could be

(43:06):
very petty and immature, but but at the same time,
in that moment, you know certainly acknowledges how important White
is to him. Do you, as an actor, do you
always search for the good and the character that you're portraying. Sure,
I think you have to because otherwise you're just demonizing

(43:27):
or judging the people that you're playing. And if you're
judging a character that you're playing, you're gonna play it differently.
You don't want to editorialize about a character plan I think.
I think Michael's a decent a decent dude with a
lot of heart. But he's so based on his childhood,

(43:50):
based on all sorts of things and things that he
had lacked growing up, things that he was I felt
he was deprived of. He was so hungry forks sceptence,
but I don't think he had the strongest templates in
the world to go by. But I think he also
learned and evolved and um became a better person along

(44:16):
the way. And he was just a bit a bit
myopic and became more aware once he sort of was
able to start stepping outside of himself and his own
little eccentricities, he could see a little bit more about
the world around him. I think one of the things
about Michael is he's actually this and in terms of

(44:41):
my interpretation of him, I feel like he would look
out at all the people who worked with him, and
it's like he would put his foot in his mouth
all the time. But in a lot of ways, I
don't think he ever valued one person or type of

(45:02):
person over any other. And in that way, I think
he was very pure character, because he's very dumb in
terms of political correctness and being appropriate in public. But
at the same time, I don't I just don't think
there was hardness in his heart towards anyone. He I

(45:27):
think a person with an enormously good, kind heart, who
lacked a great deal of information about the world around him,
and was as a sleep in a woke world as
you could be, but trying his best, trying his best.
And actually there's a difference between being intolerant and being ignorant,

(45:54):
and and sometimes intolerance and ignorance go hand in hand,
for sure they do. But I think he was a
decent human being. Really, he just didn't get it all
the time. Um, the show was happening my mom and dad,
they had friends and they would say, we can't watch

(46:16):
that show like that, Michael Scott. He key makes me
too uncomfortable. I can't watch that. And I always felt
that this was came from a place of deep insecurity
or like misogynistic or racist or homophobic feelings within themselves,
like that's why it was uncomfortable at times. And then
you came out thanks a lot for saying this. I

(46:37):
get asked about it all the time that the show
could never be made now. This was not exactly what
I said. Okay, well, that's great, because I have always
said that I thought that Steve was misquoted in this.
I don't know. I don't know if it could be
made now. Maybe it could. I guess my point was

(46:58):
that I think what I was trying to say was
that that exact same show probably wouldn't be made today,
but with the same components, the same actors, the same writers.
If it were to come back, it would evolve into
the version of what we did back then. I mean,

(47:21):
I think the writing would be a bit different in
today's climate, but I don't think it would be any
less insightful. I don't think it would be any less
smart or any less funny. It would just be different,
that's all. And I do think it would be different,
and I think, I mean, Michael Scott would be much

(47:42):
more tuned into what it is to be woke. He
would not understand it necessarily, but he would be the
comedy would be coming from his struggle to understand and
fit into the world as we know it today, because
the world as we knew it fifteen years ago is
different than it is today. But you know, you take

(48:04):
that same character who is trying to speak the language
of modern times, that can be very funny, but it
would just be different. It would just be a different
set of rules for today. But I don't know, I um,
I think, you know, I think it's easy to say
that you can't be funny, you can't do comedy this

(48:27):
day and age. I think that's a bit of a
cop out because every you know, every time you turn around,
there is somebody coming up with something that is of
the time and inventive and doesn't shirk away from our
responsibility to look in the mirror. I think it just

(48:50):
I think it just takes a level of intelligence to
be able to do that. Yeah, here's my other theory,
just in terms of like why the show is so
popular today and especially with younger people and me going
back and watching it, and it doesn't feel dated. And
Greg was so adamant about the realistic elements of the

(49:16):
way people looked and that it felt lived in and
the way that it shot, I feel like it maybe
subconsciously people are they obviously no, it's not a documentary,
but that it's just about this time in this place. Well,
I think it's because of what you said before. It's
about behavior. It's about human behavior, and human behavior is

(49:37):
pretty universal and doesn't change a whole lot. You know,
the question has gone around so often about why the
resurgence and popularity? Why is it? Why does it seem
to be more popular now than it was back then?
But beyond that, why do twelve and thirteen year olds
and ten year olds? Why do they like it? That

(50:00):
was always a shock to make. Shocker because when we
were making the show, I thought, well, people who have
worked in an office environment have a context. I can
get it. I you know, I think they'd have something
that they could find in here. But the fact that
not only I mean not even teenagers, but like like preteens.
Apparently Billie Eilish is a big fan and has been

(50:24):
for years, and I got a note from her and
we've corresponded a little bit, and it's shocking that you know,
the this gener at god, I sound like I'm eighty
years old, but these younger generations, and it almost seems
to have been passed down from their older siblings too.

(50:45):
I don't know. I don't, but you know, I try
not to even question it too much because it's a
miracle that the show still gets the kind of attention
that it does. I don't when is when are people
going to get sick of it? Like? When? When? When
does the shoe drop? And then it's just when does

(51:09):
the backlash start? That's my question is that when when
when this comes out? Probably actually know it's the week before,
the week before. It's just done, you know what. I
just we all were so lucky. I think that permeates

(51:29):
the whole vibe of the show too, because we knew
we were all hanging by a thread and we were
just going to enjoy it, and no one there was
no cockiness at all, no air against Everybody was just
happy to be employed and working with this group and
kind of clinging to each other because we also knew
that this is a once in a lifetime conglomeration of

(51:52):
people and let's enjoy it. I mean, as an actor,
to have an experience like that, you know, we're lucky
if we just get to work and and get paid
and make a living. Come on, that's like, that's all
any of us wanted. That's the other thing that I
think was baseline for everyone on that show. Really all

(52:14):
we wanted to do was make livings as actors. No,
I think no one aspired to anything beyond that, and
so there was complete contentment in in what we had there.
But I would add to that that that is what
people wanted, was to make a living as an actor.

(52:35):
And at the same time that we felt so lucky
that we were actually able to make a living on
something that was actually good that people cared about that
then took it to like completely agree. I, um, you
you you haven't died. Okay, I'm just gonna say that.

(52:57):
And it's very difficult for me to be over overly nice,
but there is something that that I need you to
hear that. Um, when Michael left and you left, you
left at the same time, weird coincided. It was so bizarre.
It's like, where's Michael Steve left earlier today? But um,

(53:22):
it needs to be acknowledged that, you know, for us,
Michael Scott was an amazing creation, but you were equally special.
That's really nice of you to say, Um, well, it was.
It was a special group and to find that dynamic,

(53:44):
you know, actors, a TV show, you know, throwing all
of that aside, just to have a group of people
that you care so much about and and you can't
wait to see the next day. I tend to do
that though. Rear wise, I tend to leave. And I've
done this a few times. I left Second City when
it just was it was the best job in the world.

(54:07):
I couldn't imagine it being any better. I was having
the most fun of my life. I gotta go. I
gotta go because I don't want to get comfortable. And
I did the same thing on the Daily Show. I
was there for four years or so, and okay, this
is perfect. And Nancy, my wife, we're both correspondents, this
is fantastic, love it. We're having a ball, and we

(54:27):
both decided up, I gotta go, you know, we get
let's just keep it moving on. And and I sort
of did the same thing on the Office, like it
like you don't want it to and maybe it's maybe
it's out of fear. Maybe maybe it's like you don't
want it to turn a corner in any way. You
don't want it to be any in any way less
than it ever was. Um, So maybe that's maybe that's

(54:52):
something about me that you know, I should examine, see
somebody about. But it's so so. Maybe it's a defense
mechanism that way. But I was just so proud to
be part of it, and it was very difficult for
me to leave, um because I loved everybody. Um. I

(55:17):
didn't start by asking this because it didn't occur to me.
And then people started talking, and I've been asking people
what was the greater loss? Was it Steve or was
it Michael Scott? And two stories have come up a
number of times. One I haven't heard. I want to
share this with you, Mike Sure. Um he said this.

(55:40):
There was a budgetary meeting and they were trying to
slash budget because they were always trying to slash the budget,
and one of the things on the table was reducing
the size of the cast. I can't remember who was there,
but there were executives in the room and Steve, who
was a producer at the time, said nope, nope, nope, no, no,
Like he said no eight times in a row, it's

(56:02):
not happening. That is not going to happen, and it
just shut it down, shut it down forever, and no
one ever brought it up again. And I think that
everybody felt that from you, that the ensemble was so
important to you. And I don't even hope there's a question.

(56:31):
I it was. It was a really it was a
very strong thing inside of me, that group, and I
felt very protective of everybody. But I think everyone felt
that way, you know, standing up too, like no one
was going to put any one of us down in

(56:51):
any way. But I got that sense from not just
the cast, but the crew and the writers and all
the producers. Is again, it sounds like such a crock
And you know, if I sound like I'm accepting, as
I said, you've died, and it's not. It's no, it's
not that, but it's and look, it's part of it

(57:12):
is that you said, like, no, these were the guys
who were here, this is our show. Can you imagine?
I mean, can you imagine at that point? And I
wasn't a producer until a few years in we were
down the road that had to be like season four,
So I mean, no, there's no way, like what No,

(57:33):
it didn't make sense, um, unless people wanted to move on,
unless they're but for finance. That's the other thing, the budgetary.
Do you remember the product integration stuff that we had
to go through Shredder it was the staple shredder. It
was Chili's thing. Oh man, that was a thorn in

(57:57):
my side. I remember when one executive came in and said, Hey,
for budgetary reasons, we would like to partner up with
some of these companies and do some product integration. And
that is that. That's definitely the one time I feel
like I raised my hand and said we can't. I'm

(58:17):
very much against us because I think it it definitely
changes the show. If we are serving a corporate master,
There's no way the show will be the same. If
we're putting in any sort of products, it's going to
alter how we write the show, how we performed the show.

(58:38):
I was dead set against it. And they went ahead
and did a couple of things anyway, and and each
time they were disasters, they were they were terrible. I
wasn't even going to bring that up to you. But
what Greg talked about that, he called you um a

(59:00):
great improver of life. He told a story about Chili's
coming and saying, no, Pam can't be drunk, and he Greg,
he said, he was full blown panicking. Yeah, we were
like three days into the shoot. We're going to lose
the whole episode. Yeah, and you said no, well, and
you just that's what he was talking about, like a
life improperly, here's a situation, let me find let me,

(59:23):
let me find the yes and or whatever. Yeah, we
found a way out of it. Um, do you have
any specific memories that you want to share from from
your last day or a few days on set of
the last episode there? That was so well first starters.

(59:48):
Six months before, I talked to Greg about how I
wanted Michael to go out, like what I thought sort
of a final arc would be, and the idea that
I pitched was, you know, obviously he in Hollywood, be together.
But I said, specifically on his last day, I thought

(01:00:09):
that there should be a party being planned, but that
he should basically trick people into thinking he was leaving
the next day because I just thought that that would
be the most um elegant representation of his growth as
a human being that he Because Michael lives to be celebrated,

(01:00:29):
it's you think that's all he wants. He wants to
be the center of attention, and he he wants pats
on the back, he wants people to think he's funny
and charming and all of those things. But the fact
that he'd walk away from his big tribute, his big
send off, and be able to in a very personal

(01:00:49):
way say goodbye to each character, that to me felt
like it would resonate and it was almost more than
I bargained for, because that's what happened. I had scenes
with everyone in the cast, and it was it was.
It was emotional torture because imagine saying goodbye for a week.

(01:01:16):
It wasn't you know, see you later and your wave
and you're you're out. No, it was like just fraught
with emotion and and joy and sadness and nostalgia. But
it was also really beautiful, Like I Treasure. I'd like
treasure just doing that episode because it did allow me

(01:01:39):
to kind of have a finality with everybody and and
they were all different, like like I had one with
Toby that wasn't was it was it very nostalgic at all,
but very fitting of my but even in that certainly
not as a character to be nostalgic, but to kind

(01:02:02):
of have that final scene with Paul, you know, I
can't show the emotion that's actually waited behind it as
a human being. For just me and Paul. Uh So,
it was it was a dance. You know, it was tricky.
But um, I remember the last take and we were
shooting in the bullpen. We were shooting in the main set,

(01:02:24):
and I started to feel like, oh I I felt like,
I think they're more people in the vicinity because all
I could see were the cast. But then I just
got the set. You know, you just get a sense
of like, Okay, something something, it's got, something's happening. Um.

(01:02:45):
And as soon as that last take, the room just
filled with people and you know, it was all the
writers and crew and and it it was well, I
mean you were there, it was. It was ridiculous. It
was ridiculously emotional. Um. Someone told me leading back up

(01:03:07):
to the finale of the series that why would Michael
come back? And you said, well, if do I got married?
Is that true? I had told Greg, I just don't
think it's a good idea because I felt like Michael's
story had definitely ended, and I was reticent about coming

(01:03:27):
back because I didn't want that ending to be at
all about Michael, because you guys had two more really
valuable seasons, and I just didn't feel like it was
right for Michael's return to take anything away from that.
That was everyone else's ending. Michael had already had his,

(01:03:48):
so I just didn't want to. But at the same time,
I felt like I should, out of respect for all
of you guys, and out of my love for everybody,
to you know, to acknowledge the the ending of this thing.
Your kids watch that never now come on, They've never

(01:04:10):
watched it, and I completely get it, Like, why would
you That's just weird, you know, watch your dad do
that thing? Though, Okay, so my daughter's a freshman college
and you said you going that was became a thing
because everyone's watch He's totally cool with it. It's not,
you know, over that weirdness, and nobody makes a big

(01:04:31):
deal of it at college. But taking a course in
communications and the subject matter was like the paradox of
comedy or something. Then this is like a big lecture,
like a huge man and they are studying an episode
of the Office, which she's never seen, and she she

(01:04:54):
texted us like that was really funny, liked, but she
said it's so weird. She said, I never thought I
would be studying something that you do that my father
was in, like for a course. I just I just

(01:05:14):
think that's hilarious how that has come around. Oh my gosh,
so funny. Um well, I thank you, thank you. That
was unceremonious, noble. Will you get out? Actually, I no, seriously,
I UM so good to see you. It's truly so good.

(01:05:37):
And weirdly, it doesn't feel like that much time's past.
I know it's such a cliche, but like I'll run
into then I'm like, oh, he's gonna look really different. Now.
By the way, what does this mean? Whenever anyone walks
in there, like, you look exactly the same. Everyone looks

(01:05:58):
exactly the same to me. But you know what, it's
all I have you ever been to a reunion, like
a high school reunion and you've never gone to one?
Um no, I don't know what I have you. It's
it's an interesting phenomenon because you might see something. I
just went back to college for a reunion of my

(01:06:20):
improv group. Of all things, it's the fort It was
at anniversary of the of the creation of this improv group.
So I went back to celebrate that with them, and
there were people I hadn't seen since college, and I
graduated in eighty four, so it had been a long
long time. And some people like when you see them,

(01:06:41):
there's that immediate oh my, like that is a very
different looking person, and within fifteen seconds they look exactly
like they did because they are who they were, and
it's you immediately process back to you know, whoever they
were at the time, although you do look exactly the same,

(01:07:05):
you really do. It's amazing. Um, thank you so much,
oh my god, for coming in, Thanks for talking to me.
I so appreciate it. And I we may not see
each other very often, but I value your friendship and
I'm always so happy to watch you in anything that

(01:07:27):
you're doing really the same way. Yeah, it's so good
to see you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Nancy making friendI
gip oh frip tonight. Please give her my best too.
Good lord, oh man, I don't know about you, but

(01:08:00):
I could just start that right back over from the top. Uh, Steve,
my friend, thank you so much for sitting down with me.
I mean, it's not like you have anything better to do,
or like a bunch of movies and TV shows to make,
but still, thank you, and listeners, thank you for listening.
Let me know your thoughts on this episode in the reviews.

(01:08:24):
It is so helpful for me and my team. And
if you enjoyed listening to Steve, well, keep an eye
out or or in an ear out, because we will
have him back on a future episode with a very
special guest. Until then, we will have lots more interviews
coming your way, so we will see you next week.

(01:08:54):
The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our
senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr,
and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man
in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble

(01:09:14):
and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky.