Dr. Ramani ON: How to Spot a Narcissist & 3 Signs of Gaslighting in Any Relationship

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So the way gaslighting works is it's a denial of
a person's reality. That's step one. I never said that
that never happened. Now you're already a little off balance
because I'm very authoritatively saying something didn't happen. That by
itself is not gaslighting. Now the step two of gaslighting
is then I tell you there's something wrong with you.
Do you know what I'm sick of. I'm sick of

(00:21):
living with an unhinged, paranoid lunatic. That's what I'm tired of.
There's the gaslight. Now there's a step three. Hey everyone,
welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast
in the world. Thanks to each and every one of
you who choose to come here to become happier, healthier,

(00:43):
and more healed. And I'm so grateful to our incredible audience.
It's been phenomenal to see how much you've been listening, learning,
applying in your lives over the past few months. I
love seeing the reviews, I love seeing all the tags
on Instagram and on Twitter and the video on TikTok.
It means the world to me that you're also sharing
and passing this forward. And I'm so excited to be

(01:06):
talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book,
Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait
to share it with you. I am so so excited
for you to read this book, for you to listen
to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't
got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules
of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying

(01:28):
to find, keep, or let go of love. So if
you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling
with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd
love to invite you to come and see me for
my global tour Love Rules. Go to Ja Shettytour dot
com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more.

(01:49):
I can't wait to see you this year. And Today's
guest is someone that I've known for a couple of years.
We've interacted in some really interesting environments, and I have
to say that whenever she speaks, I'm like wow, Like
I'm completely in awe. Her insights are phenomenal in real time.
I've been parts of like almost group thinks, And whenever

(02:12):
Today's guest shares an insight or shares some wisdom or
shares a perspective. It's so powerful that you know that
there's years of experience, there's decades of learning that go
behind it, and so I feel really honored that I
get to have this conversation. She's been on the show
once before, but we were just talking beforehand about how
he was doing the pandemics that was very pandemic focused.

(02:34):
But I think today is going to be really truly
powerful for you. I'm speaking about the one and only
Doctor Ramany, who's a licensed clinical psychologist in LA, a
professor at California State University LA, and the founder and
CEO of Lunar Education, Training and Consulting. Doctor Ramany is
an author of several books. I recommend them all, including

(02:56):
Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship
with a Narcissist and Don't You Know Who I Am?
How to Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism, entitle men,
and incivility. Now, Doctor Romany will be adding the role
of hosts to her resume. She launches a new podcast,
Navigating Narcissism with Doctor Romany, a show that focuses on

(03:19):
narcissism at its impact on relationships. Now, I know all
of you are fascinated by relationships, narcissism, and your mind.
There's no one better than doctor Romany. Doctor Romany, thank
you so much for doing this. That's a very big introduction.
So I hope I can live up to It's true,
and I think we have. We've been in so many rooms.
We have a lot of mutual behind yeah, people that

(03:40):
we work with, And I really mean it, like, I
love the way you listen, and I love the way
you articulate what you're hearing and connecting and putting the
dots together. And you're so in demand, so to actually
have you here today is really really special. I wanted
to start off by understanding a bit about how you
came to this work and how narcissism, because today you're

(04:02):
known as the person who knows literally everything Nazism yet
deeply studying it. When did narcissism become an obsession or
a focus or a point of study for you? Sort
of around two thousand and four, two thousand and three thereabouts,
and it was in a research capacity looking at what
was happening in healthcare settings when you had really demanding, antagonistic,

(04:25):
entitled patients and the toll that was taking in healthcare settings,
which seems so obvious, but that led me to do
a deeper dive and I realized how little this had
been researched in sort of healthcare situations. I was specifically
working in the area of HIV, and so that started
a research program. At that same time, I also had
a clinical practice, and in my clinical practice, you know,

(04:46):
more and more people were kind of coming in with
the same relationship story because I was studying narcissism in
my research, I'm thinking, how interesting, let me just shed
this light on the patterns they're seeing that are quite
antagonistic and that just knowing that, and they said, well,
can this change in The answer to that's pretty much no.
Once they knew it could really be shifted that much,

(05:06):
it totally changed their point of view and lifted a
lot of self blame. So those were the two things
kind of happening, and that honestly, should I say or
should I go? My first book on narcissism came from
after the sessions. These clients were so overwhelmed they'd often say,
could you just put this in an email? Right? And
I really felt for them because I could see it
was a real deer in the headlights experience, so I'd

(05:28):
knock out, you know something in an email. It also
helped me organize my thoughts and then I thought, okay,
I keep writing the same email, so let's just make
that a book. So when the world started sort of
going upside down, I thought, this is interesting. I am
going to approach this topic because I thought, well, this
is actually what's happening right now. And everyone was using

(05:50):
the word A lot of people weren't using it correctly,
and that's where that came from. Then from there was
where it got interesting was writer, that's what I do.
But two young people approached me, former students, and had
said they were students. They were finishing school at the time.
They said, you know, you should really be on YouTube

(06:11):
and I said, that's ridiculous. You know, at my age,
it didn't make sense. It wasn't how I consumed media.
And they said, let's take a few months, let's see
what kind of how this space works. And over time,
years of sort of honing it and tuning it and
all of that, that was actually where all of a sudden,
this reach happened on this YouTube channel. So it was

(06:32):
an evolution. But what I found was where the real
sort of pivot was for me. The worlds of mental
health was not recognizing what was happening to people in
these relationships, and that's when I got angry. And to me,
anger is a great motivator. I thought these people had
gone to therapists and being invalidated, and maybe it's how

(06:53):
you communicate, and maybe you aren't trying hard enough. And
I thought, oh my goodness, and that's really for me
when it sort of felt like a revolution, I thought,
something's got to give. And if this means that people
are going to say, you know what's wrong with you
and you have a target on your back, I mean,
I've been called every name in the book, and people
said this is an unempathic therapist. How could she? And
I thought, oh my goodness. I thought people are trying

(07:15):
to shut this discourse down through shame, and I thought, nah,
let's just keep going. I'm old enough to not really
care what people think about me anymore. And so that's
really where it came from. And now that's just sort
of the focus. The narcissism peace to me is interesting
from a scientific framing and all of that, but the
real passion for me is working with people who have

(07:38):
been through these relationships and have never really felt recognized, seen,
or heard, to help them with their healing and help
them find themselves so they feel that they can stand
on their own in the world and actually have their
voice again. That's the mission. Yeah, so important and so needed,
and I'm so glad that you're doing it. I feel
like this is more common as an currents today than

(08:02):
ever before. And do you think that's because narcissism was
somewhat hidden for many years in the sense that it
just happened behind closed doors, or like, why is it
only now that we're talking about it so much? That's
such a good question, Jay, you know, and it's almost like,
without giving you two pedantic a history lesson is that
people have been the word narcissism in this application, like

(08:22):
about other people, didn't really even start coming into the
literature until maybe the very late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds.
Then some psychoanalytic theorists talked about it, but it was
a really quiet backwater in the world of mental health,
and mental health and psychology are new fields. It wasn't
even until nineteen eighty where we saw it come with

(08:43):
the idea of narcissistic personality disorder, which is its own issue.
That's just very recent to me. What is that you
know forty not even fifty years ago? And so the
people have been narcissistic since there have been people, and
it actually and interesting framing on it can actually come from.

(09:03):
There's fascinating work and if you've never read it, I
can't recommend this book enough. The book Behave by Robert
Zapolski maybe one of the most extraordinary books I think
has been written in the last ten years. And to me,
Sapolsky is a giant in all fields related to psychology,
and he makes his incredible He lays, he's talking about

(09:25):
aggression sort of why why do people behave aggressively? Why
do people behave badly? And we do know the science
has shown it narcissism is associated with aggression and violence
like this isn't just like these people are handful. There's
actually a risk here and we're not addressing this risk.
But when you look at what he says is he
look when you look at the evolution of human history.

(09:48):
He said, what we do see is a greater level
of antagonism in people who came more from cultures where
they were hurting, hurting animals, goats, whatever, cows. Why because
you steal those things. But people who are pastoralists, people
who farmed, you really can't go get up and steal
a field. I guess you could steal some of the
ears of corn, but you're not going to make off

(10:10):
at the whole field. Farming is more collaborative, hurting is
more individual. So if you go back and that is
we're talking hundreds, if not thousands of years of human history,
how people sort of interacted through the world economically, you
look at history lessons. I remember it's my daughter was
taking world history. We had a very long drive to school,
so I said, why don't you teach me what you
learned on the way to school. She'd study. I'd learned something.

(10:32):
But what I thought over and over again over five
hundred years of world history, a lot of drives over
many years, is that what we were seeing is that
these people in the history books were all very antagonistic.
They were all very narcissistic. They didn't have empathy. They
were arrogant, they were aggressive, they were controlling, they lacked empathy.
They had to be the hero like it was always

(10:54):
the same story. So I actually think narcissism, narcissistic relationships,
all of this has been around since time immemorial. It
was only because psychology is a field in its relative
infancy that we're only talking about it in this way now.
And it is only in the last fifteen years that
we have actually started paying attention to the harm this

(11:17):
personality style does to the other person in a relationship.
It's incredible, isn't it when you look at it from
that perspective about how long people have suffered from or
suffered with something because our learning was still catching up
with its experience, and you think about anyone who hasn't
lived in the last fifteen to twenty five years, they

(11:38):
potentially were called names, outcasts, misunderstood, unheard, unseen. As you're saying, absolutely,
I mean, Jay, I have worked with clients who are older, Okay,
so they've been in thirty forty fifty year marriages that
have been difficult from the very very beginning, and they said,
you know what, it wasn't until I watched your videos.

(12:00):
It wasn't until I read your books. It wasn't until
the last five to ten years that this finally had
a name and until then, I assumed it was my fault.
I wasn't trying hard enough. I was complaining, I was
being unrealistic about what a marriage should look like. That's
what they were. They were basically, in essence, turning it
back on themselves, blaming themselves. And culture wasn't helping. You know,

(12:21):
people are saying, well, I guess you're not. Marriage is tough.
You have to make compromises. That's just how they are.
They don't mean it. Their bark is worse than their bite,
and so people would internalize that. And if you really
want to look at it this way, even historically, we
didn't really start talking about domestic violence until the late sixties.
In the nineteen seventies, that's when Leonora Walker made the

(12:42):
whole sort of you know, the circle of abuse in
a relationship and all of that. This is all new
and NAT was in the seventies. To this day, we
still do not accord emotional abuse the same level as
we do physical abuse. And yet I got to tell you,
everyone who's physically abused is emotionally abused. But emotional emotionally

(13:03):
abused people are showing up with the same level of symptomatology.
Often the same level of post traumatic kinds of decrements
and functioning, you name it. So we're seeing is this
is all slowly evolving. Interestingly, the field of mental health
is still slow to catch up. That's something that's got
to change. Yeah. Absolutely, no, I'm so glad we're having

(13:25):
this conversation, and thank you for letting us go on
a history lesson, because I think it's really important, quite frankly,
to understand to really get context of where we are seeing.
As you said, these words are thrown around now and
they're also everywhere, and you've probably done this a million
times before our audience. Could you please define narcissism and
then narcissistic personality disorder because I do feel now, as

(13:47):
you said, a lot of people are using this on
a daily basis. And while it's healthy that our language
is evolving, I do often find that people also get
wrongly labeled or early labeled, or whatever it may be.
I totally agree this is a big problem struggle. Call
it what you will. Is that, So narcissism's a personality style? Okay,
So if a personality style could be anything including narcissism, agreeableness, introversion, neuroticism.

(14:14):
Those are all personality styles, right, So narcissisms on the
shelf with them. Now we would view narcissism, which sits
under a bigger umbrella called antagonism, as a more maladaptive
style because their behavior can often put them at odds
with other people. Things like the entitlement, the arrogance, the manipulativeness,
the grandiosity, sort of really uncomfortable patterns. That's narcissism. Okay,

(14:40):
Now when we jump the rails to narcissistic personality disorder,
it's a whole different game. The reason people really get
kind of a bee in their bonnet about this needs
to be diagnosed by a licensed mental health practitioner is
because in order for a person to be diagnosed with
a mental illness, not only do they have to have

(15:02):
a laundry list of whatever is associated with that, whether
it's depression anxieties. Because if any a bipolar disorder, substance
use disorders doesn't matter, personality disorders are the same. So
you have to have that list, and this is the ringer.
You have to be able to show that that person
is either experiencing something we call subjective distress, meaning that

(15:24):
they're uncomfortable or social and occupational impairment, meaning that their
life is kind of getting wrecked by this and they're
aware of it. It's a lot of awareness and discomfort
that many people who are narcissistic don't have. In fact,
they're kind of sitting on top of the world. They
got a partner, they got a side piece, they've got

(15:46):
they've got money, they've got success, they've got power. They're thinking,
I ain't got no problems. Now they're burning down everyone
around them. But you cannot diagnose someone because someone else
is unhappy with their behavior. That's not what our diagnostic
systems were designed to do. So when we get into
these antagonistic disorders like narcissistic personality disorder, it's pretty rare

(16:11):
that people with these personalities get into treatment. And when
they do, it's for some other reason. Their marriage is
blowing up, they're using substances. In some cases, they're depressed,
something's gone wrong at work, They've been involved in something
sort of publicly that makes them look bad, so they
go to therapy to say face. So the thing that
gets them into therapy is not like, oh, I've noticed

(16:34):
I don't have much empathy and I'm really entitled and arrogant.
I'm looking for help with that, said, no one ever. Okay.
So when they're coming in with something else, often very arrogantly,
like okay, I see your fancy certificates on the wall, doc,
So how long is it going to take you to
fix me? I'm paying a lot for your time. Very dismissive,
very arrogant. Now, every so often you'll see a narcissisting.

(16:57):
Not every so often, not uncommonly. In people who have
stasistic personality disorder, they may also have something else going on,
like depression or anxiety, or, like I said, a substance
use disorder. The therapist is going to focus, as we do,
on the more acute issue, the depression and the anxiety
substance use disorder, and they'll try to manage that right

(17:17):
through combination of therapy, maybe medication, whatever they use. Time
goes on, the mood's lifting a little, or the anxiety
is managed, or they're sober, but they're still really awful
and entitled and arrogant and all this other stuff. And
because a lot of therapists don't bring personality stuff into
the room, they don't think about it. They're thinking that
maybe I'm not doing this right. This person still is

(17:39):
not like they're still not behaving nicely, but they're not
using anymore and they seem to be Their sleep seems
to be better. And so you see what I'm saying
is the personality is like the baseline. It's the thrumb
under the other stuff that's happening on top. That's the
disorder a person. You have a personality. I have a personality.
For example, I'm introverted, Okay, believe it or not, incredibly

(18:02):
introverted person. That is my personality. It is not going
to change next week. I Am not going to be
the life of the party. Okay, on any given Saturday night.
I'll tell you the probabilities. I am home reading a book,
watching TV, or doing something ridiculous at home. But I
am at home, Okay, I can't change that. If you

(18:23):
said to me, well, come on, doctor, we're gonna make
you extroverted up, like, no, you're not. And if you said,
but you have to become extroverted, I might be able
to stretch myself, but I'll collapse or I'll be exhausted,
or you know what I'm saying. So that's personality. It
is who we are. It's a psychological fingerprint of sorts,
but it's always right under the surface. So you're not

(18:43):
going to make the introverted extrovert. You're not going to
make the neurotic person more sort of relaxed and impulsive.
You're not going to take a conscientious person and turn
them into someone who is sort of acts out, impulsive
and doesn't plan. These personalities sort of set who we are.
And so this is in the case of people who
have narcissistic personalities, they have very disagreeable personalities. They have

(19:07):
antagonistic personalities. That's the difference. And so before people say it,
I'm like, I'll say, does this person have a lack
of empathy? Are they entitled? Do they seek validation? Sometimes
people say, well, I think he's narcissistic because he cheated
on me. I'm like, well, he cheated on you, that's
all I got here. I don't know if this dude's narcissistic.
You'd have to tell me a little bit more about

(19:29):
this person's behavior. And I think people are using this
as a buzzword to label or talk about someone who
did something that aggravated them. And you got to remember,
narcissism is not a one off. Okay, so if one
day someone did something like having a bad week, But
in general they are a very even tempered, warm, compassionate, kind, mindful,

(19:54):
self aware of person. That's who they are most of
the time. But then twenty things are going wrong. Parents
are sick, child is sick, job is going badly, and
they're a little bit more short fused. But they're even
saying I am not at my best, I am so sorry,
cut me a wide berth, you know, I'm so so.
And they're very aware that they're not behaving well. They're

(20:16):
they're not behaving well. In that case, isn't narcissism. It
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(22:06):
com Forward slash J. That's such a great explanation, and
I hope everyone who's listening in watching, I hope that's
giving you a real context and a wider perspective on
how this will fits together. Thank you so much for
that genuine masterclass, says I guess what I want to
start is do we have any understanding or how much
is our current understanding on how people end up with

(22:29):
a narcissistic personality, because I think that's healthy for people
to have context over too. Like you said, like, whatever
personality we are, we can't change that core root base
of it. So it's worth knowing how we ended up
there because again, whether we're parents, whether we're thinking of
being parents, whether we're navigating the world and concerned about
ourselves or someone in our life, it helps us understand

(22:51):
what are some of those facets or elements that brought
people into being narcissist as a personality. Right, So this
is where it gets interesting. Right, So personality of these
a funny little thing where it's it's there's a little
bit of a genetic piece to it. A genetic piece
is something we call temperament. Okay, so we all have
temperaments and we see it even in babies. Some babies
you hold them in their arms, your arms, they soothe

(23:13):
like this. They're easy, they're smiley, they're often they're just content,
you know, and they and they're often kind. And even
as soon as that point where they're sort of aware
of who other people are in toddlerhood, they come into
preschool age, they're very aware. They'll take their cookie, they'll
split it in half. There's some kids like that. Right
then there are those kids who, no matter what you do,

(23:34):
they arch their back and they cannot be soothed, and
they're ru and they always need attention, and they always
want attention, and they're mean to their siblings. And they
take not only the one cookie, but they take all
the cookies. Right. That stuff, that biological stuff, is foundational
in many ways to our personalities. I'd say to everyone,
if you have access to anyone who knew you early

(23:54):
in life, see how well like they describe your infancy
or your toddlerhood, and how well it tracks to who
you are now. Every so often, as a shrink, I
get to talk to like a parental figure in that
person's life. Never been wrong, yet every time that baby
temperament toddler temperament tracks and jump, sure you were a
sweet baby. I am so sure. Say Jay is the

(24:19):
sweetest little baby. Oh my god, No, they'll say, oh,
this one, you know, definitely not. And I was a
super super super sweet baby, you know. And I think
I'm a pretty sweet adult actually, you know, but a
little intense but sweet, you know, you know. But I
bet bet you were. And so that temperament forms like
a seed. All right, that's a seed right there. That

(24:42):
temperament is how the world reacts to us. That kid
who's won't be soothed and needs attention and needs to
cart wheels through the living room. The world doesn't like
the kid. That kid that much, right, They go through
Babysitters don't like them. Parents are just a little bit
of eye rolling. Kids are perceptive, and it might even
affect attachment because the parent is so exhausted to dealing

(25:04):
with that tough child. It could even impair attachment experiences.
And then they go into school. Teachers don't like them
as much. Even peers might be frustrated by them. They're
having more invalidating experiences. Right, that's a little bit of
some of the seed of what we see can be narcissism, right,
because narcissism also has an attachment piece to it. In general,

(25:24):
people of narcissistic personalities often have more anxious or avoidant
attachment styles, a little bit more anxious than anything else.
And why that might be. It might be that there
was chaos in the family. There may have been a
bad relationship between the parents. The parents may have been
distracted with their own lives. They couldn't be bothered with
having kids. There may have been literal violence, mental illness,

(25:49):
whatever substance use. Something was happening in that early environment
that may have impacted the attachment experience. That's also associated
with narcissism. We know that cases trauma early in life
is associated with narcissism, But that gets tricky because in
the vast majority of cases it's not because the person
might say, well, I had trauma and childhood, I'm not narcissistic. Yeah,

(26:10):
that's the bet I would take. But we do see
that sometimes, especially if that impacts attachment, that's going to
make a difference. Those are sort of what I consider
more of the sort of the difficult early circumstances, the
adverse childhood experience origins of narcissism. However, there's another side
to it, which is the overindulged kind of pathway to narcissism.

(26:32):
It's like, think of narcissism as rome and multiple roads
coming into Rome, right, And in the sort of overindulged pathways,
this is where you see sort of your standards, spoiled kid.
The parents will give the kid anything, things and experiences
and money. But here's the ringer. And there was a

(26:52):
very interesting study that came out a couple of years
ago where it's not just the spoiling, but it's telling
the child, you're more special than any of these other kids.
Not just that you're special. That's a lovely message, but
you're more special. You don't that line's not for you.

(27:12):
You know the other kids wait in that line. I'll
figure you're you're too special to wait in that line.
That's sort of that you're better than the others, you're
more special than the others, which a narcissistic parent may
do to their child. And that's how we'll sometimes see
narcissistic parents may be get narcissistic kids, but not as
a rule. So but all these pathways I'm describing don't

(27:34):
always end up in narcissism why some end up that way.
I do think the temperament piece probably pays a bigger
role than we think. And I've worked with many, many
narcissistic clients over my years of practice, and I've seen
all of these ideology origin pathways play out. But depending
on the origin, that will affect how the narcissism looks
in adulthood. The more kind of traumatizing neglect origin will

(27:58):
result to narcissist people who are a bit more sullen, resentful, aggrieved, sad,
socially anxious, whereas the spoiled child narcissism will end up
a little bit more grandiose. Wow, So that that if
hope that makes it? Yeah, Yeah, that's a lot of color, right,
I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges we

(28:20):
see is that when I speak to people, whether I'm
working with them or I meet them, or when they're
working with a therapist and then I'm connecting with them
in another part of their life, most people don't realize
they're with someone narcissistic until after they leave. Like when
you write a book, should I stay or should I go?
I've I found a lot of people figuring out towards

(28:42):
the end. It's not something you spot very quickly, at
least when people I know, and I would love to
hear your experience. Obviously you've done this for so long,
You've had so many conversations around this. I found that
it's not something that people spot very early, or sometimes
they're early signs of it even seem positive or it
seems that it can be attractive, Like you said, a

(29:03):
lot of people who are narcissistic can be ambitious, they
can be successful, they could have achieved a lot of
things through that pain, that trauma. So walk us through
now if we're in that should I stay or should
I go? Mode? That's the name of doctor Romany's book
as well, so as we're talking about it, feel free
to order that book. When you're in that position and
you start to sense there's some narcissism in the person

(29:26):
you're with, A what are you going to sense? What
are the things that people usually notice? Why don't we
notice it early on? Like? What about narcissism is somewhat?
Is it? Can it be attractive? It's very attractive, And
here's the ringer in these relationships. People want the narcissistic
people to be the cartoon villain, right, they want it
to be in your phase bad mean, lying, deceitful, betraying

(29:51):
all the time. Right, Well, that would be easy. No
one's going to put up with that. The challenge with
these relationships, whether it's apparent, whether it's a partner, colleague, friends, sibling,
you name, it is that there's often enough good days
in there to keep you hooked. All these qualities charm, charisma, confidence, ambition,

(30:13):
being fun, loving, being extroverted, wanting to have all kinds
of interesting experiences. Narcissistic people are very sensation seeking, their
novelty seeking. It can be really fun. That's why we
talk about the love bombing that happens at the beginning
of these relationships. And what happens is when I've worked
with people, especially those who have been in longer term relationships,
will say, Doc, it isn't always bad, it wasn't always bad,

(30:37):
but the bad is really bad. Like the bad leaves
me wondering if I'm any good and I feel like
a bad person, and I feel like I'm the one
with the problem, and on and on and on. Right,
but then there are those good days and the person
will often say, see, I was the one who is wrong.
I'm I'm being too demanding. I've got this silly notion
of what a relationship supposed to be, and I can

(30:58):
set a clock on the fact that it's going to
go back into the downward. So I think that that's
one thing I want everyone listening to this to know
is that people say, well, maybe this person in my
life isn't that antagonistic. Maybe they're not that narcissistic because
we have these good days. Plan on the good days.
It's like being in a relationship, or it's like living
someplace where the weather is always extreme. It's either like

(31:20):
eighty five degrees in sunny or like the most horrific
hurricane blizzard, and that weather alternates like on an every
few days basis sometimes, And so as a result of that,
it confuses people to no end. It isn't always bad.
There were good moments, There are good memories, and that's
what confuses people. So this idea of recognizing someone. In

(31:43):
my own podcast, Navigating Narcissism, we've done now thirty episodes, right,
thirty episodes, thirty conversations about narcissism, and in in many
of these cases, what I've seen, especially in the intimate relationships.
Somewhere around one, two three years, things were becoming clear.
Although you see the red flags as soon as the

(32:04):
first month, the piece is turning into somebody's like pixels, right,
A couple of pixels teach you nothing. Lots of pixels
make a picture, and it takes a couple of years
for a lot of folks to get enough pixels to say, Okay,
there's no not seeing this. But by then they may
be so deep into it that cognitive dissonance kicks in,

(32:25):
and you want it to work, so you tell yourself
whatever story you need to tell yourself so the relationship
can sustain. Well, we have enough good times. Maybe it's
my fault, I'm being too demanding. And you'll see this,
especially if a person is trying to find a relationship
at a pressured time of life. They want to have kids,
they feel pressured to get married, whatever it may be.

(32:46):
But even in a family, a person will say, I
can't walk away from my parents, even though every interaction
the person has with them is wretched. And my job
is to help people find that middle ground of having
realistic expectations. But I do think that when people red
flags are always a story that can be told retrospectively, like, okay,
there was a red flag on the first day, there's

(33:07):
a red flag in the first month. Yeah, everyone, I'll say, like, okay,
all that being late or you know, all that telling
me that they told me not to apply to that
school because they cared about me and didn't want me
to feel like I was. You know, they didn't want
to watch me go through the school telling me that
I couldn't get in. But in fact, what they were

(33:28):
doing is holding them back on their dreams, like the
pixels turn into a picture, and I think that that
it does take time, and a lot of people will
feel embarrassing. How did it take me two years to
see this? To which I say two years is fast?
Good for you. And when the love bombing ends, and
love bombing lasts anywhere from six weeks to a year,

(33:50):
I think that's about the range. And so when the
love bombing ends and they do valuing starts, people are
almost on this weird addictive treadmill of like how do
I get back to that? Yeah? And and what do
I need to change in myself? Never stopping to think, Okay,
this person brought their a game for about three months
they've shifted, I have not changed. So if you can

(34:13):
see it clearly, you can see the patterns clearly, things like,
you know, they'll get incredibly sensitive to criticism. That's a
very common pattern in narcissistic folks. And so everything will
be going well and a person's feeling more comfortable, and
they might give them feedback. I don't know what they're
wearing or the restaurant they chose or their job, and

(34:33):
a rage that feels like a tsunami will enter the
relationship and the person will be like, what the heck
just happened? Those ego injuries can really result in these
volcanic kinds of you know, sorts of shows of emotion.
That's when people start getting confused and saying, maybe I
was harsh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And so
what we see invariably is the survivors in these relationships

(34:57):
take it upon themselves to try to change everything about
the themselves, believing they can change the other person. And
if there's only one takeaway here, it's that narcissism, like
all maladaptive personality styles, is really resistant to change. The
more maladaptive the personality, the more rigid it is. The

(35:17):
more healthy and flexible the personality, the more given take.
So agreeable people are incredibly flexible. So even if they
don't want to do something, they might think like, I
love her, you know she wants to go and I'm
you know what, They've always been there for me, so
I'm going to go to the horror film festival. Might
cover my eyes, but then think that that's the give
and take of a relationship and won't be angry about it.

(35:39):
That's the flexibility. Narcissism is the opposite. It's like as
solid as a brick. Yeah wow. And I think that
when people end up in the scenarios those experiences we
have this You raise this point that we almost try
and counteract bad memories with good memories, Like that's how
we like to make sense if someone is well, if

(36:00):
they do a bad thing, how many good things did
they do? If they do a good thing, how many
bad things did they do? Right? If we don't like
someone overall, will come up with a list of mistakes
they made. If we like someone, will come up with
the list of compliments they made. What's a healthier way
of making sense of someone? Because I don't find good
and bad to be that healthy. As you said, he
could mislead you. I always say to people, you've got

(36:21):
to be able to be comfortable with this concept of
multiple truths. Multiple things can be true at the same time.
You could have had a wonderful courtship. You may have
great sex. This person may regularly gas like you. This
person lies to you. You really love how they cook spaghetti.

(36:42):
They're wonderful with your infant. They often raise their voice
at you. Do you see what I'm saying. All of
these things are happening at the same time. The hardest
thing I believe a human being can do is to
sit with those multiple truths and not run away. It
is the ultimate test of mindfulness because we want cognitive dissonance.

(37:04):
Our brains are wired. They're not wired for inconsistency. They're
wired for consistency. And when things are inconsistent, we feel
very tense, We feel very uncomfortable, and the human species
gears towards homeostasis. I need to not feel tense. The
best way to not feel tense is figure out, Okay,
I want to stay in this relationship. So he's a

(37:27):
good father. What more could you want? Right now? You
can argue the flip side of that too, When a
person for some reason feels ready to leave a relationship,
they may say they may cherry pick all the few
bad things and forget how much you know that this
person's actually really well regulated and kind and compassionate and

(37:47):
all of that. I think part of the struggle becomes
what constitutes a healthy relationship in any culture Without that
agreed upon definition, I think that's half the battle. And
so when people say to me, what's a healthy relationship,
I'm like, oh, easy. It's kind, it's compassionate, it's flexible,
it is respectful, it is cooperative, it's collaborative. There's there's

(38:11):
you know, equitability, and it may not it may be
that there's very clear roles but there's a perceived sense
of equitability in the relationship. There's self awareness, and there's
an investment in the growth of your partner. That's a
healthy relationship. And people they'll look at our sissistic relationships
that would say I don't have any of those. Yeah, okay,
But unfortunately culture will often dictate what makes things healthy.

(38:34):
And then they'll be like, well, they have a good job,
they make a lot of money. We are of the
same religion. I like how they look. Yeah, that stuff
is I understand why someone would value it. It's not
the stuff of a healthy relationship. Yeah, those are the
things we start convincing ourselves through and coaching ourselves through
and walking ourselves through. It gets harder and harder and

(38:55):
harder because we get so addicted, especially going back to
what you're sing about love bombing, Like being love bombed
is really addictive and it's really intoxicating because it's like, Wow,
this person's really into me. And if I could count
the amount of friends I have this year that have
been love bombed, like it's insane, Like how common it is,

(39:15):
And it's at the short run two, it's at that
six weeks mark or you know, three months mark where
people are showing their their full self. I guess is
the right way of saying it. How do you stop
yourself from being love bombed? Like how do you avoid
being love bombed? Or how do you navigate being love bombed?
Because I think that's the conversation, Like we're not going

(39:36):
to be able to stop being love bombed, but you
are going to be able to slow things down, You
are going to be able to rethink, You are going
to be able to, but we just love being loved
so much, and you know, it's kind of like the
confidence boost we never had, and it's it's the influx
of positive compliments we never had. So how do we

(39:57):
what do we do? It's a tough one, Jay, You know.
I means if you put like a bunch of I
don't copcakes or sweet starting to eat it right knowing that, okay, rominy,
you don't need to, you don't need the sugar. You
know we're going to turn. Then I'd say, you don't
need the sugar. You don't, that's not good for you.
Then that's easy, I think easier when it comes to food.

(40:18):
I think that what happens with love bombing might actually
be more addictive than drugs because it's often addressing a
deficit many people believe they've experienced in their lives that
they weren't seen, they weren't recognized, they weren't valued. A
lot of people didn't get that in the early part
of their lives, so that someone's coming along or in

(40:39):
their dating life, they didn't get it with other people.
So when someone comes along and is offering it, it's
almost feels like an offset to those other relationships. Where
a person didn't feel valued or seen or any of that.
I think part A number one is that you need
to know what it is, so when it's happening, you're
more aware of It's like it again us a hurricane analogy.

(41:00):
It's like preparing for it. So if a person says, oh,
hurricane is just rain and wind, I'm like, m maybe not.
Like let's get those you know, let's board up your windows,
let's sandbag your house, evacuate like, it's not just a
rain and storm. So knowing what it is means you're
going to prepare yourself in a different way. That's one thing.
The second thing is love bombing becomes a place for

(41:23):
you to test the waters. Okay, so I tell people
pull back on that throttle. Let's come down in altitude.
Let's fly this plane a little slower. Now. In most
narcissistic relationships, if a person tries I'm not saying end it,
but tries to pull back, like we go a little slower,
or you know what, we don't need to go to

(41:44):
that place, Let's just go to this simple restaurant. Or
I don't know about traveling yet, Like I'd like to
get you to know you better you put those lines
down and set those boundaries. In the majority of cases,
the narcissistic person's going to jump. They're going to do
things like doubt your commitment. I guess you're not that
into me, or oh yeah, okay, I get it, you're

(42:04):
not you're not vibing because what you've done is you've
taken away their game. Right now, if they were really,
really a good, solid person who just happened to be
super into dating you, then they'd say, oh, you know
what I was, I'm so interested in you. Let me
slow this, let me slow my role. I think, I
let my enthusiasm, and they'll be I let my enthusiasm

(42:27):
get the best of me. They'll be self aware of
what they're they're doing and might say, you know, I
think that I just you're really wonderful and but thank you.
And they'll receive the feedback and say and say, you
know what, let's go to that hole in the wall restaurant.
It sounds great and it won't be an ego injury
and they won't view it again because you're taking away

(42:48):
their game. That's that's the example of gaslighting, which, by
the way, today was designated as the word of the year.
Why yes, Miriam Webster Dictionary called gaslighting the word of
the year, which to me, let me tell you, I
literally started crying. I thought, after fifteen years of talking
about this stuff quietly, I cannot believe that this is
finally entering into the mainstream. But people still use the

(43:10):
word wrong. But the fact of the matter is when
when you simply say something like I'm really enjoying getting
to know you, but can we just step it back
a bit, and a person says, well, I guess you're
not that interested in me, then you're being gaslight because
that's actually not your experience. You actually are quite committed.
I want to slow it down to see what it's like.
But that's a great way to test the waters. That

(43:31):
would be like that would be me saying, can you
take all those cupcakes away? I'm not interested, Yeah, and
I'd still like I really want one. Yeah. So it's
that exactly. Yeah. Let's now that you've said that, I
didn't realize that's that is incredible that it's the word
of the year, in the sense that at least we're
understanding it. It's sad that it's the word of the
year because it means more people are experiencing it. It's

(43:51):
like that, you know, but can you again properly clarify
as what gaslighting is again so that we don't misuse it?
And absolutely, And when I saw that, I'm like, I'm
going to bring this up with j Yeah, because it
just when it came up as the word of the
year gaslight. A lot of people are confused by gaslighting
right now. The origin of the word is actually is

(44:12):
only in the last less than a hundred years. It
was a name of a play that became a film,
and you know, it was literally about the psychological manipulation
of a woman by her husband and how she psychologically
sort of falls apart because that's happening fast forward. The
only people who talked about gaslighting were therapists. It was

(44:33):
a therapist talk and we talk about it. Oh God,
her husband's gaslighting him, you know kind of thing, and
my shrink would say it to me, right, and I
was like, oh, if you're being gaslighted, So it was
shrink talk. Nobody else talked about it, and then those
of us working in this space, it was, you know, like, oh,
that's the primary tool of the narcissistic person because it's
a tool of domination. So the way gaslighting works is

(44:56):
it's it's a denial of a person's reality. That's step one.
I never said that that never happened. You're what are
you saying? Like I don't even see what you're talking about? Right,
So you're like it didn't or this isn't happening. So
you're now you're already a little off balance because I'm
very authoritatively saying to you something didn't happen. But that's

(45:19):
not that's that by itself is not gaslighting. Oh okay, no,
you gotta go now. The step two of gaslighting is
then I tell you there's something wrong with you, right,
you're so sensitive, like why do you see this everywhere?
Or like ooh god, you know paranoia much? You know
what I'm gonna tell you the name of a shrink.
You need to talk to someone because you keep imagining

(45:41):
things that aren't happening. Okay, So imagine a person in
a relationship or there's infidelity and they're getting suspicious their
partners hours whatever it is messages and they say to
their partner, what is this thing at work? You keep
staying and you know you're traveling, like is there anything
going on that I should know about. No, there's nothing

(46:02):
going on. A Step one. We am not gaslighted yet,
though gaslighting is. But you know what I'm sick of.
I'm sick of living with an unhinged, paranoid lunatic. That's
what I'm tired of. There's the gaslight. Now there's a
Step three is that it's not a one off, one time. Yes,
that's a gaslighting episode, but the true gaslighting abuse happens

(46:24):
over time, over and over and over, and it won't
just be about one issue. I never said that what
is wrong with you? Oh, I'm getting so tired of
your paranoida. You're so sensitive. And what happens then is
that other person being told repeatedly by someone they do trust.
Because gaslighting is predicated on trust, it's harder for a

(46:44):
stranger to gaslight you, partner, family member, healthcare provider, teacher,
people who have some power over someone. Politicians in gaslight,
entire societies gaslight right when everyone is coming in on
one party line and denying reality and then telling the
people who don't believe that that there's something wrong with them,

(47:07):
and do it over and over and over again. You
break the other person's spirit. You leave them completely doubting themselves,
completely blaming themselves. And so what happens is when a
person's chronically gaslighted, you'll see things like no, no, you
know what, this is my fault. They start saying, they
start apologizing before they get in the row, I'm sorry,

(47:27):
I'm sorry, and I'm like, what are you sorry for?
It's just they got so used to saying it, so
they're there. They really get shattered by this where they
literally lose a sense of up and down night and day.
They're just it's such a cruel thing to do to
a person. It is qualifies as emotional abuse. So this

(47:50):
idea of gas lighting great that it's in the public consciousness,
but it's not just lying. Everyone says doctor Rombeney. What's
the difference between lying and gaslighting is a denial of evidence. Right,
So today we had our time to get together and
make it up. You say, oh kay, you're gonna be
here at two o'clock, and I'd say, that's not true.
You told me to get here at one o'clock. It

(48:12):
was one o'clock, one o'clock, one o'clock. I know it
was one o'clock, and I insist on that. Then you
bibles show me the email and say, romany look at
as two o'clock and then and then and then I
went with that. Right then we were just clothed. The
lie got lies get shut down by evidence. Gas Lighting
is a lie, but wrapped up in this invalidating bow.

(48:34):
And that I mean when I hear that, it breaks
my heart because I there's so many people who have
been on the end of that. And you see how
someone may even have started off with an anxious or
avoidant attachment style, and now that anxiety is through the roof,
or that self criticism is you know, the self doubt

(48:56):
is even greater. Now that person can trust again. Now
the persons struggling with their value and their worth. And
I know this is a bigger question and I do
want to get into it, but that individual, what could
they have done differently to avoid going inward? Because what
I've found is that when someone is potentially probably one

(49:20):
of the other personality types, it's natural for them to
think that there's something that they need to change. That's
the natural default of the other personality types. It's like,
when something's not working out, maybe I should change because
then it could be better, right, well, take responsibility exactly
and so and I've seen that in myself, even when
someone would say the meanest thing about me, even if

(49:42):
I know it's not true to my core, there's a
part of me that will still reflect on it because
I'm like, what if maybe maybe it's something I'm missing
about myself. But how do you avoid letting it affect you?
Or are you saying there is no way and it
is going to affect you. I think that it's a
mix of things. It's interesting when people get savvy about

(50:02):
gaslighting and they know they're being gaslighted in real time. Now,
the one thing you can never, ever, ever do is
tell a gaslighter that you know that they're gaslighting you,
because then they're going to double down. Yeah, okay, So
when it's happening in real time is and this is
what's so hard, because it becomes sort of a cart
before the horse thing. Most people haven't done the therapeutic

(50:23):
work of who am I? What am I about? What
is my identity? How do I stand as a person,
what do I believe in? What do I care about? Right?
Very few people do that work because then when you
do that again, I get this I get this a
lot in online spaces because a lot of people out

(50:45):
there who are very pro narcissism apparently, and so when
I come out, but it is, they're a big organized community.
Doctor Rominey is a terrible therapist and she's very unempathic.
That was one of last week's comments. Okay, it has
us impact j because I don't know this persu a
stranger on the internet. But I have to catch myself
because I know there's parts of me that have that

(51:07):
neurotic structure where I believe that's plausible, just because that's
just sort of how I'm right. Yeah, the work then
becomes I have to and it's literally talking myself out loud,
like rominy, you are empathic, you're solid, you are a
very good therapist. You've seen really meaningful change your clients. Literally,

(51:30):
I'm saying this out loud. However, and this is the
interesting rub. This hurts you, even though this is from
a stranger. To give yourself a second. And that might
be talk to someone I care about who cares about me,
to see if they can uplift me. It might be
do something pleasurable. It might mean doing a brief workout.
It might mean whatever it means. You know that there's

(51:51):
a moment when I'm saying I need to show some
compassion to myself right now because this person has hit
me someplace that hurts becomes a different call to arms
at that point? Does that make sense? But the work
is who am I and what am I about? You know?
And I think that this is why journaling becomes so
important because having these places you've written things down where

(52:14):
you can look back and say, I really have comment
things from the heart, and sure I've made mistakes like
everyone does, but listen, this is a this is a
high falutin. This is me having been in therapist therapy
for fifty thousand years, you know, So that's also there's
a place where that work has been done. And having
gone through a life and had to learn from all
of that, that was not something I was doing when

(52:35):
I was twenty five years old. So a therapist, though, could,
if a good therapist, would be a place where somebody
could say you're being gaslighted. And I can't tell you
how many times I've sat with a client and said,
it sounds like they're gaslighting you're the client, bag what
And then we'll walk through what is their reality, who
are there, And then when that session is done, the
Latin say, I feel like a big weight has been

(52:57):
lifted off of me because I was literally doubting the
very essence of who I am. And this is where
therapy becomes so important, because it's sort of bringing a
person back to doing that work of who they really are,
what they really stand for, what they're about. So in
real time, it's really about listening to it. I have
to be honest with you. When I within the presence

(53:19):
of someone who is gaslighting me and they're actually somebody
who I do value, I tend to disengage a bit.
You know, I'll just sort of let you know, I'll say,
you know, I'll often give the okay, we're just seeing
it in different ways, and I'll sort of soften and
I won't get into it with them anymore. I will
I don't. In fact, one of my techniques I give

(53:39):
the clients I work with is don't go deep, don't defend,
don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So I'll disengage a
bit and realize, Okay, this is no longer a safe space. Yeah,
And that sort of feels self protective and I think
that that's almost like retraining an inner critic to say,
can I also have an inner bodyguard so that I
could just have someone's like, heyn, let's just pull you

(53:59):
back a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. I
had an episode with a coaching client because obviously that's
my way. I had an episode with the coaching client
earlier this year, and I have a similar approach where
I'm like, I know who I am, I know what
I care about, I know with what intention I work towards,
and ultimately, if that's an opinion someone has of me,

(54:21):
they're entitled to that. But but I'm not going to
go deep with it because I know that's just not
my truth and that's not where I am. But like
you're saying, that takes a lot of self work beforehand,
and like you said, there's also still an openness to feedback.
There's still an openness to being better. It's not like
you think you're complete and you're perfect and your intentions

(54:44):
perfect either. So I really like that you brought it
back to that because I'm glad that we got back
to that that at the end of the day, it's
about who you are, your intention, the essence of who
you're trying to be, and that's ultimately all you have
to go back to before and often but it's hard,
it's really really and for people who've been through lifelong

(55:05):
narcissistic abuse, long term narcissistic abuse in a relationship, they'll
be like, I have no idea who I am, so
so I do say that honestly, and the film, the
original film Gaslight, portrays this as part of the storyline. Ultimately,
ultimately she got ungaslighted if you will, because it's just
one person. It only takes one person. And I always

(55:26):
tell everyone you can be the person who turns the
gaslight off for someone else. You may witness something and
say that's you know, you might be at a meeting
and someone might say that's not what they said, and
so now you're ungaslighting them in real time. It might
be you do it after the meeting, if that's safer.
Someone will tell you what's happening in their relationship and

(55:48):
you don't doubt them, say oh, come on, it couldn't
have been that bad. You don't say that, you're like,
I am so sorry this is happening to you. That
sounds absolutely terrible. Are you okay, because what you've done
is you've given permission to this person who's just told
you they're going through something terrible. Minimizing it in many
ways is a gaslighted approach. Right, Oh, it's not that bad,

(56:09):
because if our discomfort with someone else's discomfort, we can
hold this space for other people and sort of turn
that gaslight off for others, And you'd be amazed and
how quickly that can turn the ship around. Yeah. Well,
what are some of the realistic expectations for someone who
says I think I can change them? I think I
can be the person that helps this narcissistic person evolve, grow, change,

(56:32):
whatever word they use, Like, what have been realistic storylines
as to how those episodes and scenarios go. They don't
I am? In my book? Don't you know who I am?
There is a letter in that book and I had
been speaking in some public forum. This woman heard me
and in somebody was asking me a question in this form,

(56:53):
and she was in a relatively new marriage. They've been
together a couple of years married. All the narcissistic top
notes were and her partner and she was asking the question,
I don't know, can I stick this out for another
ten years. I'm just trying to figure this out. And
then this woman just did it herself. She's one of
the people who's decided to stay the next ten years,

(57:15):
and she beautifully lays out, honey, this is what's going
to happen if you stay for another ten years. Just basically,
ten more years of gas lighting, ten more years of
broken heart. I've worked with clients jay who weren't ready
to go, and so they say they sometimes even drop
out of therapy, and a few times I've had those
clients call me back three, five, seven, eight years later,

(57:36):
sometimes tearful and say nothing changed. And there's no sense
of triumph in me for that. I recognize that they
needed to see it the way they needed to see it.
I don't get to dictate their rock bottom. I don't
get to dictate when someone sees something. I do all
the psycho education stuff, I do online education to see

(57:56):
if I might be able to push the fast forward
button on that, but it's still you get there when
you get there. But like there has been, I can
say it probably counts ten instances of people ten of
the thousands I've heard that where people have said, you
know this person actually when I said I'm done, I'm

(58:18):
over it. I'm in fact recently came up in one
of the seminars and my healing program, and this person
said I'm done, I'm out, and she moved into her
own place and her husband ended up going to twelve step.
He ended up going to therapy. He had become more
self aware, and she had found herself thriving living by herself.

(58:40):
But she did love him, and he said, I want
you to move back in, and she said, you know what,
I'm still growing and finding myself. So the answer to
that is no, we can continue having tentative conversations. And
he didn't rage at her. That was one of the
more hopeful stories I've heard in the last few years,
and that's one in five years. And so you know

(59:02):
that in this case that this person became more well regulated.
But her telling me that twelve step helped led me
to realize that perhaps addiction was probably the more powerful
piece of that story. Will sometimes see sort of competing
kinds of patterns, but by and large I have not.
I mean, it is the realistic expectation. Though to your point,
the reason that book is called should I Stay or

(59:23):
Should I Go? Is about fifty percent of people stay
in these relationships. That's what they do, and the reasons
vary from finances to children, to religion to culture. I
still love this person too, I'm afraid whatever their reasons are,
no one, not me, not anyone gets to judge those reasons.

(59:48):
What I believe in as a therapist is to meet
them where they are at with that and say, okay,
so that's I understand. I hear you. I don't get
to sit here and tell you you don't love this person.
You love them, you love them. I'm here to tell
you this is what you can realistically expect if you
stay right. And I use this sort of metaphor of
going into the tiger's cage when I'm talking with survivors,

(01:00:10):
which is there's a tiger, there's a cage. If it's
really a tiger, and you go in that cage, you're
going to get torn apart. If it's not a tiger,
if it's a sweet little cat, and you might have
a nice little experience, but maybe the only way you
and I'm telling you, and even if I tell you
it's a tiger, you may not believe me until you
get in that cage. So I know that sometimes my

(01:00:33):
clients say I have to let them go and let
them go into the cage when they get torn apart.
My job is to help bring them back together again.
And so going into the tiger's cage is something sometimes
people need to do. Say I just need to be
sure that's what yeah, yeah, And I say, I understand
that's part of your journey, and I'm going to support
you in that. I'm here because I think some clients think, like, well,

(01:00:55):
doctor Roman, he's going to be a friend. And if
I go, and I'm like you as somebody who has
gone back, who continues to maintain more than a few
narcissistic relationships in my life. For reasons of culture, we're
both South Asian. We know that there's a tremendous pressure
in South Asian milist are actually in many cultures to
sustain committed relationships and family. So I can't roll into

(01:01:19):
those cultures and say, yeah, you got to go, that's
not an option. But saying to people that you are
not going to get a depth of emotional need met here,
you are going to be invalidated. The work has to
be in you not believing what they're saying. They are
not going to grow empathy. They're going to remain entitled.
You need to develop other sources of support, and that

(01:01:41):
might be through friends, through family, through spirituality. However, however,
you find those spaces where you feel seen and heard,
like I said, whether through other human beings, the universe, God,
whatever that looks like for you, that's your work. So
when you realize that maybe the normal depth of a relationship,
of a healthy relationship is this, you got this, yeah,

(01:02:04):
and you're going to have to be ready for that
roller coaster of the bad days the good days and
not personalize it. But in the long term, Jay, staying
in that toxic setting is going to take a toll
on those people, even with all the realistic expectations, it
takes a toll on a person. Well, I think you've
just hit something there that that's the real growth that

(01:02:24):
whether you decide to stay or you decide to go
the work of figuring out who you are and what's
important to you, what your self worth is based on
what your value is, that's going to happen either way. Hopefully,
well that's going to be a path that hopefully you'll
have to take either way. And so whatever you're going
to do. Please take that path, because that's a path

(01:02:46):
that stays with you forever, but to take that path
quietly so you don't get it. So the ultimate healing
in the narcissistic relationship comes from a process called individuation.
You become you out. It's imagine like a tree, so
that's so shadowing that the plants under it can't grow
because they're blocked from the sun. Our goal is to

(01:03:09):
get you out of the shadow of their branches, to
no longer have to serve as a in psychological servitude
to them. That you get to individuate. The problem is
they don't want to hear it or see it. Sort
of psychologically alive in a narcissistic relationship, you have to
skirt a very challenging line of being authentic in other
spaces but not in that relationship because that's really hard

(01:03:32):
because your authenticity will be shaved away. But if you
make it a very conscious act that once again that
inner bodyguard, I'm protecting myself right now. They don't get
to see all of me because they are not able
to hold me safe, and I deserve that. So I'm
going to put authentic me away for a minute. I'm

(01:03:52):
just going to show up, not going to be cruel,
not going to be unkind. I'm going to show up
and do what I gotta do. You know, whether that's
just sort of keep the trains running on time. I
work with clients honestly, Jay coming up with a list
of neutral conversation topics. The weather with someone who said,
beautifully the other day they said, sports news, weather. You know,
like that's pretty much all you can talk about in

(01:04:14):
these relationships, right, and weather it tends to be the safest.
Can you believe this rain? It's really cloudy? I wonder
when it's gonna get warm again? I mean is And
people say, but that's not a relationship. I said, he
never was. So you learn that piece. But you allow
your authenticity to bloom in safer situations. It's like a
plant that can only bloom in the night, but not
in the day. Right, the flowers gorgeous at night, but

(01:04:37):
there's reasons that can't be bloomed in the day. You're
still going to bloom. But you become a much more
intentional and mindful person in your life that you really
say yourself consciously, even like you might be pulled in
front of a friend's house and say I can't bring
all of me into this. You breathe in and you go,
and you show up as sort of part of yourself,

(01:05:00):
but not all of yourself. And you know what, you
know who the real loser in that is that fool
of a person who doesn't get to participate in the
full glory, the full authentic glory of who you are.
They lost, not you, and you protected yourself. And that
part require the reason why I'm hearing from you, why
that path after ten years in the letter, as you said,

(01:05:20):
is is even so tough, is because being a less
version of yourselves takes so much strength and so much courage.
It's not weakness. It takes so much energy to be
a less version of yourself because someone doesn't allow you
to be your full self. Correct, it's a restraint, but

(01:05:41):
it's not. And I think for too many people in
these relationships, they are this attenuated, less authentic version of themselves.
They think that they're actually less than and I say,
you're not less than. You are actually caring for yourself.
You're learning that you can't bring that in And I
have to be frank with you, Jay, when people really
get this right, they're like, oh, okay, I'm not doing

(01:06:03):
this anymore, because what they were doing before was they
really were acting in a way that they thought, if
I do it this way, they'll change. If I do
it that, I said, changes off the table. From here
on forward, you're moving forward with change off the table.
And I'll tell you that pressed the accelerator for many people,
saying even if they didn't leave entirely in intimate relationships,
they often left. But in family relationships they'll say, I

(01:06:24):
think I'm going to take a pass on Thanksgiving this year.
I think I'm going to I'm only going to go
for one day of the family wedding. Like, they start
setting some real boundaries, and they learned to tolerate other
people saying, well, isn't she upity for not showing up?
Like that, tolerance of people engaging this sort of enabling
discourse of oh, you're not a team player, or now

(01:06:47):
you're the one who's difficult to recognize that when people
take these rather revolutionary steps of taking care of themselves
that again, I do believe that self care and that
restraint in these kinds of toxic relationships is literally an
act of rebellion. Yeah, and I love what the example

(01:07:07):
you gave that certain cultures, whether it's cultural, societal, financial
pressures that stop us from walking away, What are some
of the healthier boundaries people can set up? So one
boundary is I'm going to make time for myself to bloom,
to be authentic in my own space. I'm going to
find friends in community that I take strength from. Are

(01:07:29):
there other healthy boundaries that people can set if they
are currently staying in this situation based on financial, societal,
or family expectations or pressures not to engage in the
same way. I think a lot of people would get
sort of with the dog with a bone kind of
a fight with them, right, it's just sort of letting
it go. People will say I don't want to relent.

(01:07:50):
I'm like, then, don't relent with people you actually who
are healthy and can be very sort of deep, mindful
circumspect people. Don't get into that argument with them unless
you just want to get into an argument for the
sake of getting into an argument. Something else that people
need to be prepared with in these sort of narcissistic
relational situations is that there's a lot of baiting if

(01:08:13):
you're not giving the arguments and being as gaslightable as
you once were. That's not very satisfying for them. So
they're going to find a way to go for the jugular,
to make you bleed and make you fight back. And
I say to people, you've got to know sort of
your true north, as it were, and you might not
take ninety percent of arguments, but if they go after

(01:08:35):
some of those things you hold sacred, it could be
your children, it could be a belief system you have,
it could be people other people you care about, whatever
it is, if they go for that, then you're like,
you know what, I'm going in. I'm a tiger's gage.
I'm going in. I am going to I can't listen
to this, I can't do this, but recognize it's not

(01:08:56):
going to change anything. And it's a question of which
depletion is work worse at that point, holding yourself silent
at such a point or actually having the argument. And
then I tell people, if you decide to go in
and do that, you need to engage in some form
of just coming back down, whatever that looks like for
you after these kinds of interactions, because many many people

(01:09:17):
will say after they've had to spend time with a
very toxic, difficult, antagonistic, narcissistic, call it what you will, person,
they'll feel really depleted. And if you keep having those
episodes of depletion, you're going to get sick. Yeah. I've
also found that, I mean more from an experience one
of view, that the more you're associating with that energy,

(01:09:38):
the more likely you become or adopt certain behaviors too.
I don't know if you've seen that where certain people
start adopting similar pattern similar behaviors in order to be
able to fight back and defend themselves as a defense mechanism.
Not saying that you become narcissistic, but that you also
respond by gaslighting or trying to you know, you're using

(01:09:59):
that person's game against them because that's the only play
to survive, and you doing it consciously. But eventually, I mean,
it just becomes unconscious to some degree. And if you've
seen I've seen that. I think I've definitely seen it
where people will say change you know that. No, I
think that people will say, I don't know how often
you'd be willing to steal food, which you'd steal it
if you were hungry. Yeah, it doesn't make you a thief. Yes, yes,

(01:10:22):
you know, and that's the um. We would all do
things we don't ordinarily do to survive. And I think
that some people, until they understand this personality style doesn't
change that you have to have these realistic expectations all
of that. Until people get that, they do keep sort
of getting into the tango with them, which may mean,

(01:10:42):
you know, shifts in terms of frustration just regulation their
own empathy may wane. We know that there's something called
compassion fatigue. Compassion fatigue is very contiguous to burn out,
and people in these relationships will say, my empathy has
gone to hell, like people are telling me their problems.
I'm like, I don't have it anymore. And it's not
that your empathy has gone away, but it's almost like

(01:11:04):
it's been a one you've just it's almost like a
vessel where the compassions only going out and very little
coming in. Yeah, doctor Romany, this has been incredible to
talk to you. And I just want to recommend the
books because we only touch the tip of the iceberg
the book. There's two books here that I highly recommend.
One is called Should I Stay or Should I Go.

(01:11:24):
You're going to hear about chapters about how did you
get sucked in? How do they make you feel? And
of course answering the questions should I say or should
I go? If you're a friend or in a tough
position in this kind of a relationship, then this book's
going to help you make that decision extremely practical, applicable advice.
And the other book is called Don't You Know Who

(01:11:45):
I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Error of Narcissism, entitlement,
and Incivility. This book is also available right now, and
so I highly recommend both these books. Doctor Romeny is
anything that you didn't share that you really want to
share from your heart, or something that's on your mind,
or something in the moment that you feel inspired to
a cold upon to share with us today. I think

(01:12:05):
that for me is the I'm tired of the loss
of human potential I'm seeing in these relationships, whether it's
a five year relationship or sixty year relationship. And while
it is very hard for a person to actualize and
give light to their best self while they're in these relationships,

(01:12:26):
it's not impossible. And I have worked with people who
have been in long, long term relationships like this, and
yet I see this their empathy and compassion are deeply retained.
They still do laugh deeply and they'll say, you know,
and they'll say, listen, I can't in my world, in

(01:12:48):
my life and my culture, I can't end this. But
that doesn't mean there's not joy in my life. And
I think for me, what I want to do is,
I think everyone's been misplacing their hope in the arcissistic relationship.
The hope needs to be in oneself, and that the
hope has to be that there is this this tremendous,

(01:13:09):
untold story in you and it is your story, not
the story of them in your life, but you and yours,
and to give sort of flight to that narrative of you,
that to me is that's the work. That's the healing,
and to let when people say, what does this ever
fully go away? And the answers, no, it doesn't. It
is something that's there. And I'll say, survivors have a

(01:13:32):
unique beauty. Right, it's roomy, and it's the wound where
the you know, the wound is where the light enters
you and all of that there. Always say the survivors
can see each other in the room, right, They're the
ones in the audience that are sort of like you know,
with I'm finally being heard and seen kind of thing,
and they they've had a different journey. It's I'm not
saying it's better or worse or more virtuous, but there

(01:13:53):
is a there can be this sort of depth you
bring into your life after having been through it. It's
a loss of innocen I have to say you will.
You'll never sort of laugh and be in the same way,
but you may sort of When the laughter comes, it
feels like a gift. And I think that that many
survivors say I'm ruined, not only not ruined, there's a

(01:14:16):
depth to your inner beauty that really comes out. I'm
not saying anyone should seek it out, by the way
it will find you. That's the problem with narcissism in
our culture. And so, like I said, this is being
done through storytelling. In my podcast, I try to teach
about it, but above all else, to me, the work
is helping people heal from this, because I don't believe

(01:14:38):
anyone is defined by this. Yeah, now that's so powerful.
Everyone's been listening and watching the podcast is go navigating
narcissism makes you go listen and subscribe YouTube channel as well.
Doctor Romany, and of course on Instagram, make sure you
tag us across platforms, whether you're sharing clips on TikTok,
whether you're sharing in your stories or your posts on Instagram,

(01:14:59):
makes you tag doctor Romany and I letting us know
what stayed with you, what stuck with you, what you're
going to share with a friend. Maybe there was a
moment that you know someone in your life needs to hear.
Make sure you pass this episode along to them. I
hope this episode very clearly defined and described for you narcissism, gaslighting,
love bombing, really trying to break down what these terms

(01:15:19):
actually are, how you can get an instinct for sensing them,
knowing when they're there, and then the steps that you
can take, which are laid out beautifully in the books
and the content that we've recommended. Really hoping that you
find the help and support that you need in order
to navigate narcissism in your life in any form. And
we're going to be welcoming doctor Romany back onto the
podcast many many times to have future conversations about this

(01:15:42):
theme in different areas of our lives as well. So
Doctor Romany, thank you so much for your time and energy, Honestly,
your work is needed and so powerful. And what I
love from sitting down with you every time is not
only is my mind stimulated, not only do I feel
my intelligence has gained, I always feel moved the words
you share as well in my heart space, and I

(01:16:02):
really appreciate that, so thank you, Thank you so much
for opening your heart and letting that happen to you

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Ramani ON: How to Spot a Narcissist & 3 Signs of Gaslighting in Any Relationship