Nicole LePera: How to Break the Cycle of Trauma Bonds & Stop Toxic Relationship Habits

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:59):
When you hear all the litany of reasons remind you
of why you're not worthy? Right, we notice it, we
pull our attention away. Doesn't mean that I'm going to
feel worthy immediately does mean though, that I can show
up and begin to show up in actions of worthiness.
How might someone who is worthy treat themselves generally or.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
In this moment?

Speaker 2 (01:17):
If we weaken that belief network by pulling our attention
away every time it fires, and if we're now strengthening
a new belief network, now we have the beginnings of
a new network that will over time take over where
that old network existed.

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Speaker 4 (02:27):
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Speaker 1 (02:29):
Jay Sheety Jay sheety Hey, everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose,
the place that you come back to every single week
to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so happy
that you chose to tune in today because today's episode
is going to be one that I know each and

(02:50):
every one of you can deeply relate to. If you've
been talking recently with your friends about trauma bonds, this
episode is for you. If you've been struggling with the
relationship in your life, romantic or otherwise, this episode is
for you. And if you're someone who's just been trying
to figure out how to navigate boundaries, how to navigate

(03:10):
all the different roles you play in a relationship, the
challenges that come from stress responses we've developed early on
in our childhood, this episode is for you. I'm speaking
about a guest who's been on once before. You absolutely
loved our conversation. The One and Only Doctor Nicole Leaperra,
a holistic psychologist trained at Cornell University. The New School

(03:33):
for Social Research and the Philadelphia School of Psychoanalysis. Nicole
is the founder of the global Community Healing Membership Self
Healers Circle, and the author of the number one New
York Times bestseller How to Do the Work, How to
Meet Yourself, and today we're discussing her latest book, How
to Be the Love You Seek, Break cycles, find peace,

(03:57):
and Heal your Relationships. If you don't have this book already,
I want you to go and order it right now.
We're diving in. Please welcome to the show, doctor Nicole.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Nicole. It's great to have you.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
Back and such an honor.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Thank you so much for coming back onto the show.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Like we were saying, we were together like three years ago,
and so much has happened. But what I've loved is
to see your influence, your impact, and your insights continue
to grow and take mainstream attention. And I think it's
so deserving and so worthy the work that you're doing.
And I'm so happy that we get to reconnect and
do this again.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Of course, I'm honored to be here.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
And I when you pointed out that it has been
three years, I mean my head almost popped off. I mean,
talk about a lot, a lot happening, a lot of possibility.
I'm just again so honored to connect with you in
your community.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, well, I know this is going to help the community.
So let's dive straight in. You start very emphatically in
the book and the title says you create change. And
I think for a lot of people that hear that,
I think a lot of us feel we don't have
the power to change things. We don't feel we have
the ability to change things. We feel that our life
is a constant bombardment of things happening to us, of

(05:07):
things that other people do towards us. And you very
boldly state you create change. I know so many people
who feel like they don't know how to change, they
can't change, they're stuck. What makes you so certain and
conscious that you can create change?

Speaker 2 (05:24):
I think too nowhere is this the reality of being
stuck so prevalent, but in our relationships, I think, and
that's really what inspired this new work is to understand
why is it? Because what I would hear after writing
my first book, how to do the work for many
individuals on the healing journey. Oh, I'm making traction. I'm
starting to feel good in my life. And I'm feeling
either ready to be in a relationship or I'm in

(05:47):
a relationship and it's in my relationship where I'm really stuck.
And similar to what I talked about in my first book,
so much of how we relate is governed by our
subconscious mind, meaning outside of our awareness. So to answer
your question really simply, I think why we don't believe
we can create change is because of everything that's happening

(06:07):
beneath the iceberg, if you will, or in our subconscious
mind within our relationships. Everything from beliefs about ourself as
you even shared in the intro roles and identities that
we've learned to play deep wounding, which contain these moments
of nervous system dysregulation and reactivity, and ultimately when we
have these chain of events, these meanings interpretations that our

(06:28):
subconscious mind is making to the happenings or not happenings
in our relationship, when that is connected then to physiological
shifts in my body, those nervous system moments of dysregulation,
and then when we tune in typically is either mid
reaction or somewhere shamefully post reaction, and until we've paid
conscious attention or simply awareness to all of the different

(06:52):
parts of the story that contribute it to what feels like.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
An instinctive reaction. I'm compelled to do this thing.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
I can't stop up behaving in this way, or the
world continues to create the same struggles, the same feelings,
the same cycles, and I think it then becomes really
natural that we don't feel like we have choice. And
I think how I convince us all that we do
have choice is as we become aware of what's going
on beneath the surface, as we become aware of the

(07:21):
beliefs and the physiology that is driving those changes, we
can begin to create just a little bit of space.
Because I mean, I could sit up here and explain
to many listeners why we don't feel in choice. Until
we embody the practice of being able to pause before
that habitual reaction, it's going to be really hard for

(07:41):
me to convince us all that we can create change.
But when we have the tools to view our internal
world in a new way, including our body and all
of the stress reaction that's housed in it, then I
think we do have that empowered shift where I can
possibly convince you that there is choice change possible in
your future.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
One of the things I hear a lot from our
community and our audience when I'm talking to people is jay,
I'm just surrounded by toxic family members. I'm trying to change,
I'm trying to be better, but there's someone in my
family who'll always say something at that dinner that triggers me.
There'll be someone who at the holiday party will say
something to me that will trigger me. There'll be someone

(08:22):
that I'm living with in the house every day who
sees me meditate, who sees me trying to work out,
but as something condescending to say, how do I navigate
this toxic person that I can't just distance myself from.
I can't run away from them. They're in my life.
What do I do?

Speaker 2 (08:39):
And I think an empowering shift we can make is
to even just first ask ourselves that question, what can
we do? Because I think it's really natural to instinctively say, well,
I shouldn't have to do anything. If this toxic person
could be more supportive of this positive habit, or if
this person could be a little less whatever you know
they're bringing to the table, I.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Could then feel different.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
I think the shift of empowerment happens when we say,
let's assume and even expect that this person doesn't change
that these comments continue the lack of support, whatever it is,
and especially when it's within our family. I like to
offer a bit of insight. I think a lot of
times we do struggle and will continue to struggle, especially
within our family. With these long term relationships, there have

(09:23):
been expectations that have been validated over time, and so
we really do fall into these kind of learned dynamics.
So as we begin even to shift into something positive
for ourselves for the relationship, it's going to challenge the
dynamics of the system because what the person on the
other end will be experiencing is something new. And I'm

(09:47):
very intentionally using that word because while we all can create,
I mean I just made a case for all of
the change that we can create at any time in
our life.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Our nervous system.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Prefers the habitual, and even within the roles in our relationships,
people have learned to predict that we show up in
predictable ways, and if and when we don't, it actually
activates now a threat response based on this new experience
that someone else is having of us now I went
into that description, of course, because sometimes with that awareness,

(10:19):
we can engage with the person sharing that comment with us.
With the person not supporting us in that way, differently,
we can have a bit of compassion, maybe understanding where
they're coming from.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
We might even.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Shift our expectation of that person giving us the support
or sharing with us something positive in terms of what
it is that we're doing. If we give up that expectation,
I think a lot of us can learn to navigate
those relationships because what causes our suffering, in my opinion,
is the unmet expectation. But then, of course I want

(10:53):
to just touch quickly on the reality sometimes of boundary changes,
of new limits, maybe conversations topics that we don't bring
to this relationship. If we aren't going to get the
support or the feedback that we need, we can actually
modify ultimately what it is that we do or how
it is that we engage with the person.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I was talking to someone I was coaching, and they
were talking about a particular trait that they saw in
their partner, and I said, have you seen this trait before?
And they said yes, And I said how many times
have you seen it? And they thought about it for
a second, and they said every year we've been together.
And I said, how long have you been together? And
they said thirty years. And it was really interesting because

(11:33):
you addressed this at the start of the book, this
idea that you can't A lot of books have told
us in the past that if we change our behavior,
it will somehow change the behavior of the other person,
That if you can mold and be malleable and manipulate
your own words, thoughts, and actions, that somehow it will
create a behavioral response from someone else. But I think

(11:55):
what you're saying right now as well is that actually,
even if we change your behavior, our expectation that that
is somehow going to inspire this other individual to do
a U turn is actually kind of like a fool's
errand like it doesn't seem to be something that's going
to show. And I think that's kind of a hard
reality to accept. We almost feel that we can get

(12:19):
people to change and they will change for me and
I am important enough, if they cared enough, they would change.
So how do we let go of that expectation? How
do we build a process and a system to actually
recognize my expectation with this individual needs to shift because
I keep seeing the same pattern day after day, month
after month, or year after year, but I keep fooling

(12:40):
myself that this will be the year they change, this
will be the month that it all changes for me.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
I think a lot of times we set that expectation
or have that kind of fantasy for the future out
of a protection against the pain and suffering that being
in the alternate reality of what is happening, the fact
that this is a pattern that is lasted thirty plus years.
Just to use your client as an example, that would

(13:05):
cause a lot of grief, a reckoning, almost maybe even
a new choice point where this person would be at
a crossroads. Either I remove this expectation and then modify
in terms of what this relationship is or means to me,
or maybe I determine I can't do that, and now
I might need to shift or remove myself from the relationship.

(13:25):
And this kind of thinking, which I'm gonna call right
now immature thinking, but not as a kind of derogatory label,
more as a developmental stage. And I think it's really
emblematic of what happens in childhood for a lot of us.
A lot of us in childhood spend a lot of
time when we didn't have the physically present or the

(13:45):
emotionally attuned character that we need it in this kind
of fantasy world, because the pain of being rejected, of
not feeling the support and the attunement that we need
is so great, and I think a lot of us
continue that as a protective pattern into adulthood. With this

(14:06):
idea right that I can just imagine, create this future
in my mind that keeps me separate from the reality
of my present moment. I think a lot of times
when we hang those expectations on our partner, right, giving
them again all of our power, all of our control,
even for very well intentioned reasons. Sometimes we want to

(14:26):
support them, We might want to see them create change that.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
We know and they know that they need in their lives.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
But again, when we are putting all of our energy
on someone else in that way, not only do we
not have access to it for ourselves, it's felt by
the other person, even if it's not directly felt, it's
indirectly felt as a pressure. So again, I want to normalize.
I think the tendency to fantasize, to wish even the

(14:56):
very well intentioned actions that we can take sometimes seeming
in support of someone else, though I just acknowledge the
reality of the many of us who have created very
difficult change in our life. It takes a daily commitment
of having new experiences that will challenge our nervous system
and learning how to create change anyway. So with that said,

(15:20):
having this idea that someone else can or will change
for us is putting an unrealistic expectation on that person,
because the only person that can create change is us
and our commitment and are showing up day in, day
out in action ultimately of that change.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
What are some of the other ways that our childhood
impacts our current, present and future selves. Because I think
obviously in society and culture we are talking about this
idea of what we went through as kids shows up
in who we are now, but I think we have
quite a rudimentary basic understanding of how that actually shows up,

(15:55):
and I don't know if we're always as conscious. I
found the more I've dealt into this, the more subtle
my understanding became of myself. So, for example, at one
point I realized that one of my caregivers had always
given me a lot of love, but they also made
me feel guilty when I didn't reciprocate that love, and
I found myself replicating that in loving relationships as such

(16:16):
a subtle, hidden thing where I would overly give love
but then express words or behaviors that would make the
other person feel guilty if I didn't feel like they
lived up to my version of it. And it took
me a while to really recognize that, to heal that,
to remove that from my vocabulary and my behavior. But
knowing that it wasn't something that was bad about me

(16:38):
or that I'd created or that I could blame and
recognize was so powerful. But what are the ways in
which our early childhood experiences are affecting our current relationships
and of course future relationships.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think this conversation into the subtlety of it is
so foundationally important because I know that there's a lot
of us, especially you know, as we kind of progress
through adulthood, that has this idea that, well, childhood is
decades ago. It's actually a space that I don't want
to go back to. Right I'm an adult now and
it doesn't impact me because I do think we look
for the kind of more obvious signs, but there are

(17:13):
so many kind of ways in which from what we
were made in childhood to directly or indirectly think about
ourselves ultimately becomes those deep root of beliefs that we
carry and continue to think about ourselves into adulthood. In
terms of our emotions, the way in which we were
allowed to express our emotions, the support we had in

(17:34):
which navigating our emotions, simply the level of attunement that
our caregivers gave us will directly impact our current relationship
in adulthood with our emotions and our ability to be
responsively present to them as opposed to reactive. And the
way those identities that you talked about earlier, the way
in which we've learned in childhood to connect or relate,

(17:56):
which for a lot of us meant shoving down parts
of ourselves expression right, not showing certain aspects of our thoughts,
of our emotions, of our just general self, and or
amplifying other aspects. So really, simply how at one time
we had to connect with or relate to another individual
ultimately becomes those same roles that we play in our

(18:19):
current relationship. So when we begin to truly understand not
only the individual impact, do I know myself? Do I
know how to navigate my emotions? Do I know how
to give and receive support in a relationship to then relationally?
Who am I so much as a remnant or an
artifact in my opinion of who we once had to be,

(18:42):
Which is why we have an epidemic in a sense
of adults who don't know themselves, who don't have the
emotional resilience that they need to remain responsive to their emotions,
and who are showing up in all of these you know,
kind of masks, playing all of these roles, and our
feeling deep unfulfilled, even those of us that are actively
in relationships.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, I feel like there's this contention between a lot
of us in relationships are fighting for who we were,
Like there's a defense to this is how I've been raised,
this is what I think is right, this is what
I've been told, these are my beliefs. And then there's
another part of us that's trying to then cater to
and sway towards Oh no, but I know I need

(19:24):
to take on some of yours as well, And that
kind of often creates a bit of conflict on an
identity level, because we're wondering, well, what parts of myself
do I leave behind, But then am I trading for
their values?

Speaker 4 (19:35):
Then of their values? Right?

Speaker 1 (19:37):
How do you kind of make sense of all of that?
Because it seems like you've got your early childhood impact.
The person you have a relationship with is their early
childhood impact. You've now become adults. Now you're interacting. There's
a lot of complexity there because you may not even
be aware of your own let alone. They may not
be aware of theirs, and so you don't have any

(19:58):
context of theirs. It feels like there's a lot of
unknown unknowns in a lot of relationships. And then you're
fighting about the dishes or the bills, or you're fighting
about something that feels very current. But would you say
that actually a lot of it is based on pre
existing data.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
I think you beautifully Jay described why relationships are so complicated. Why,
as I said in the beginning, so many of us
continue to struggle wherever we are on our healing journey
within our relationships, because we do have all of these influences,
many of which that are out of sight and knowing
for ourself of course, because we can only receive information

(20:40):
that partners or potential partners are sharing. But I feel
like the individual journey of awareness of even first reckoning
with the possibility that our past is impacting us right,
and then getting really present to what habits and patterns
we are carrying in to our relationship. And then once

(21:01):
I think we get really clear in terms of what
is on our side of the street, then we can
simply before we know the details of kind of what
is in the subconscious world of our potential partners or
our loved ones, we can at least have awareness that
they have that world right, that many of the fights
that we're having, like you're sharing many fights I have

(21:21):
had over dishes, isn't necessarily about dishes at all. For
me personally, I know that there was a lot of
reactivity that I used to have when I would get
home from work and I would come home and dishes
weren't done in the sink. And for me, again all
beneath the iceberg, what was happening is I went through
as if I was removed or brought right back in

(21:42):
time to childhood where I lacked the emotionally attuned caregiver.
Though I had a caregiver who is very the way
she expressed loved my mom was through daily self care,
making sure that there was dinner on the table, making
sure that the dishes were done. Those were not chores
that I had as children. So for me, I have
this belief that those acts of service communicate someone's consideration

(22:07):
of me, someone's love and support of me. So now
flash forward in time when those kind of household duties
aren't done regardless of how my partner is showing up.
And there were many moments where I was welcomed home
with support, with interest, with curiosity, how is my day going,
open for me to talk and share how my day went.
Yet my laser focus on the lack of the dishes

(22:29):
being done, and the fact that that brought me back
as if I was the child who didn't have that
level of at Tuman, even though it was available in
my adult moment. It was as if my focus deleted it.
I was back in time, I was wound it, and
I react it right from that place. So, just using

(22:49):
my example, your example, I think all of these really
beautifully give us when a moment in time elicits a
really big reaction.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
And this isn't to say I want to be really
careful here.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
The emotion that I was feeling in the moment at
the dishes was very real physiologically. I had tension in
my muscles, my heart was racing, I was having an emotion.
It's not to shame ourself in that moment. Going back
in time doesn't negate the reality of the emotional experience
that we're having, which is why a lot of us
feel out of control, feel like we can't choose a

(23:22):
responsive choice, feel like we are instinctually kind of compelled
to react in that one way, though we do have
that choice. If we can teach ourselves again that separation,
if we can understand that big emotions are real though
a lot of times do indicate something from an earlier time,
and a lot of times it explains why our reaction

(23:45):
can be on the more immature, again, just developmental side
of things.

Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
No, I'm so glad you in there, because I think
that is such a a poignant example of how this
all works. And it's nice to take something as simple
as a visual of the dishes and then where that
comes from.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
What do we do with that awareness? Though?

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Nicole, like, what do we do with that awareness? Because
I think a lot of people will recognize, oh, got it,
I've just heard what Nicole said, yeah, that's right. When
my partner does X, it reminds me of how my
parent did why. Or when my partner doesn't do why,
it reminds me of men my parent did X or whatever.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
It may be.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
That version that you have while you're listening right now,
and for everyone who's listening and watching, I think we
go I see that, but it's I've crossed that bridge
so many times that it's I've got so used to
feeling that it's not only is it real, but it's
true to me that if someone doesn't do the dishes,
they don't care about me. Like we've put that meaning

(24:42):
to it, right, We've ascribed that very deep self worth
to an act. Right because of the amount of times
that it's gone on and on and on. Let's say
we're fortunate enough to even get that awareness, because even
that requires so much work to even be able to
admit even though it's real, even though I feel it,
even though it feels true, that it necessarily isn't true.

(25:06):
It's just a belief that I've built over time. What
do I do with that awareness? Because I feel so
conditioned by it, I feel so stuck in it, And
guess what my partner still doesn't do the.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
Dishes even when they understand this. So where do I
go from there? What do I do?

Speaker 2 (25:22):
I think that first piece of communication can go a
long way as we get clear on ourselves. Of course,
when we feel safe and secure in our particular relationships,
we can gift that knowledge because that might be the
difference between our partner. Then this is I think what
happens within relationships when we kind of enter into conflict cycles.
We have one person right regressing back in time, becoming reactive,

(25:45):
and then typically something in their reactivity sets off the
receiving partner, who then goes back in time, and now
we almost have two children kind of like sparring not
able to though enter their wise adult or more if
you will.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Mind So for a.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Lot of people, that awareness is incredibly helpful. Right for
a partner in a moment to say, Okay, this isn't
really about the dishes, even tho I'm feeling very frustrated
that I'm getting yelled at that the dishes aren't done
right now, I maybe can compassionately breathe through for the
person who's uncovering there's important information in these moments. Again,
it's not to throw away the emotion or to shame

(26:25):
ourselves for having it. Those emotions carry important information. Right,
So if at the bottom of this, for a lot
of us there is an unmet need, maybe it's not
Maybe the support I need in that moment isn't about
the dishes, but maybe there is support I'm needing in
a different area or a different type of support that
I could benefit from. So understanding what's driving our reactivity,

(26:48):
I think can give us not only the language to communicate,
It can give us clarity on what's really going on
with which then can give us flexibility in other ways
that we can attempt to get that need met. Because
this is where I think it gets even more complicated
what many of us are seeking.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Me.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Right, even if I came home and all of the
dishes were done, that wasn't gonna remove what I felt
in the kind of like pit of my heart, and
I do it feels like a visceral as long as
I can remember, there was like a pressure feeling on
my chest. That wouldn't remove that feeling because where that
was coming from was from a lack of emotional attunement.

(27:28):
So even if everyone that I surround myself with cleans
my dishes from now until the end of time. If
they're not giving me that emotional attunement that I need,
if I'm not participating in that emotional attunement that I
need because I'm not present in my own emotional body
and sharing them, right, you get the picture, then I
will just have a lot of clean dishes for a

(27:48):
very long time, and I'll still have that pit in
that hole. And I think this is why a lot
of us cycle through reactivity.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
We maybe do.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Directly communicate, maybe even sometimes our partner does the dishes,
and we still don't feel satisfied. We still don't feel fulfilled,
we still don't feel that connection or that support that
we're looking for, because I think a lot of us
are actually looking for are not the actions. We're looking for,
that deep level of attunement. We're looking for that resonance.

(28:20):
We're looking to just feel a little less alone, even
if no one is saying anything to us, because they're
just sitting in that emotional presence or that emotional space
with us.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, and I think you're so right, going back to
what you said earlier, we have to sit in that
space with ourselves in order to invite someone to sit
in it with us, because they can't just find that space. Right.
It's almost like you have a basement level in your
psyche that you have the key and access to in
the elevator, and if you don't invite someone into that

(28:52):
because you haven't visited it before, they're just on level
one trying to figure out where you want them to go.
And I'm literally visualized Inception right now, the movie where
all of his dreams are locked in an elevator. But
I think that that feels so true to me that
I find that even with my wife. We had a
really interesting conversation recently, so her book came out this year,

(29:14):
and before the book was coming out, this was like
maybe a month before the book came out, and I said,
I really want to understand how you'd like us to
celebrate this occasion, because I don't think I know. Now
we've been together for eleven years, married for eight years,
and I just said, I don't think I really have
understood not just how you like to celebrate, because that

(29:36):
I know we've celebrated great birthdays and you've had a
great time, but I don't know how you'd like to
celebrate this occasion in your life. It's different. I don't
want to take it like anything. And I said my assumption,
which would be wrong because it's a projection of how
I'd like to be celebrated. Mine would be to throw
you a big party and buy all your friends over
and you know, have loads of great food and everything.
But I was like, I think that's wrong, Like I

(29:57):
know that, so Howard, and she said something really beautiful.
She shows she goes we I felt like we celebrated
it last night. And I was like, what do you mean?
And she was like, well, we had our friends over.
I cooked for them from the cookbook. I made meals
for them. They all really.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
Enjoyed the food.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
And I was like, yeah, but we didn't like that
it was it was just like it was just and
she was like, that's how I like to celebrate it,
because I got to cook what I love for people
I love and they appreciated it, and that was me
celebrating it.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
And I was like, oh wow, I could have just me.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
And it was just this really interesting thing about this communication,
Like and I said to my wife, I said, after
I said, please inform me of things like that, because
I would have no idea like if you don't let
me in, if you don't invite me into that space
of this is how I like to be celebrated, and
she goes, you know what, I don't think I've thought
about it until you ask me right now. And so
it was a joint discovery. And I think I think

(30:50):
if people look at their relationship, it is not like, oh,
you've kept me out and you haven't let me in
and you don't tell me. It's actually more like we're
actually just figuring this out, like both of us on
an awareness level of figuring this out.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
I think that's such a beautiful story. I'm smiling. I
was so struck when I first met Lollie, who I've
been with her for a little over ten years now,
and she has such a curiosity one of the things
that attracted me very early on to her about everything.
She's just so interested in life, people understanding them. And
this was completely different than the experience I had in

(31:23):
my family. I was never necessarily asked what I thought
about certain things or how I was experiencing certain things
that more or less kind of we operated with this
kind of unified front in my family with a lot
of projection if one member felt or thought this thing,
there was the assumption that everyone thought her felt that
same way. So now flash forward decades and I'm with Lollie,

(31:45):
who's always curiously asking me my perspective on things, how
I'm experiencing things, what I think, and I was so
shocked and at a loss, if I'm honest, day I
had a hard time answering a lot of her curiosity
in the beginning because I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
I didn't stop to think.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
So I'm imagining myself being asked how I would have
liked to celebrate something, and that would have been a
gift of exploration for me to have and to consider.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
And I think what you're sharing.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
I had a moment with Jenna, So my third partner
and I the other day in one of these very
similar moments that you're describing, and we were sitting in
the car and she was very quiet, and I noticed
a pattern of when we're out, typically driving in a car,
and that's a lot of the time where her and
I are out doing things together, she's very quiet. And
so I'm over here conditioned from my childhood to assign

(32:36):
the meaning to quiet, which is danger bad silent treatment.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
So you upset.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Someone because this is the experience at time, and time
happened again in my childhood. So I'm sitting in car
and this is I mean, we've been together now for
over two years, Jenna and I, So for two years now,
I'm driving in silent car rides. I've not said a word,
just in my mind worried, Oh gosh, maybe we have
nothing to talk about, Like is in this like I
have things on my mind. I would try to engage conversation.
She would give me one word answer. So finally, just

(33:00):
last week, I said, I just want to bring something up.
I notice that you're quite quiet when we are out
in the car together, you know. And it opened up
a beautiful you know, self awareness opportunity or a couple
awareness where she.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Was like, oh, you know what, I guess I am.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
I really like to just look out the window and
look at the scenery and listen to the music that
we have on. It's really as simple as that. Meanwhile,
I spent the better part of two years secretly be worried. Right,
So I think these are really beautiful examples of how
simple some of the steps that we can take are
and also how complicated humans make it because.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
We do project totally. We do.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
We are subjective creatures who are projecting all the time.
And I'm just sitting at like I have a lot
of compassion for myself, just all of this suffering that
you know, causing ourselves without just having the direct conversation
and communication.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, we think we know what someone is thinking, which
is all based on how we think we feel affected
by that, right, like we think others are affected by
things the way we are. And therefore, if someone's quiet,
we believe they're quiet because if I was quiet, that
means I'm upset, and therefore if they're quite, they're upset.

(34:14):
And what's really interesting to me is when we communicate,
which I'm so glad you're raising that because it sounds basic,
but it's not because a lot of people, when we communicate,
we just say, well, I wish you'd talk more in
the car, I wish you'd just know how you want
to celebrate your birthday. I wish you'd just tell me
what you want me to do. And that's not communication.
Those are almost demand or control mechanisms or like kind

(34:36):
of they're kind of orders in one sense, like giving
an order to someone as opposed to saying hey, you know,
because of how I've grown up, I feel when someone
goes quiet, it means there's something wrong. What does it
mean for you?

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Like?

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Why is that important for you? And I think that's
what communication is. It's a safe space to explore and
be curious. And one of the things you brought about
earlier was this idea of how the nervous system seeks familiarity.
And what's really interesting is on the cover you talk
about finding peace. And what's really interesting is that all
of our familiarity is chaos. And so when there is

(35:15):
peace in a relationship, when there is quote unquote boredom
in a relationship, when there's quote unquote stillness in a relationship,
a lot of us who are familiar with chaos go,
wait a minute, what's going on? Because we're familiar with it.
And so I want to clarify what familiarity means because
I think we think familiarity means a good thing, but

(35:36):
we don't realize familiarity just means what you're used to.
And so talk to me about how should we respond
to peaceful scenarios when we're familiar with chaos.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
I appreciate this because I think this is such a
common experience. Myself included it with a lot of stress,
overwhelming stress in the home. There was a sense of
home that I would receive when in stressful relationships or
when interacting with stressful individuals. So familiarity really.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Simply is repetition.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
It's that which is predictable, right, It's kind of thinking
of the neural networks. Even I think that is very
common in our in our language. I can't think of
the order it, you know what I mean? Dialogue these days,
So understanding again, familiar is repeat it right. It doesn't
mean there is no good bad label that we.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Can put on it.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
And a lot of people who have had chaotic early
experiences will exactly like you beautifully said, get to those moments,
even meet a person and without that rush of chemicals
will assume it's not the appropriate relationship. And one of
the biggest takeaways I hope that people get from reading
this book is kind of two part, first being the

(36:49):
awareness that the way we're defining and relating to other individuals,
like I said at the beginning, is more of an
imprint or an artifact of our past than an objective
reality about our present. And then once we understand that.
I think that could open the door for some of
us to become aware that what we are seeking and
recreating in terms of familiarity repetition is grounded more in stress, chaos,

(37:14):
maybe even trauma, unmet needs than in a grounded, secure,
peaceful love, because that's what we're really looking to create,
and understanding that our nervous system is playing a foundational
role in that meaning, if I'm not able as an
individual to self soothe or to find safe, secure others
with which I can coregulate with, if I'm not able

(37:36):
to create safety in myself, then chances are I'm not
going to be able to interact with another human and
find that secure grounding. So when I understand again the
role that I'm playing, the role that my nervous system
is playing, that my nervous system is playing a role,
right that I can't just wish my way into a calm,
graunded relationship. I actually have to teach my body how

(37:59):
to have one. And I also understand that that does
not mean that I won't experience conflict or disagreement or disconnection,
because I think sometimes after we unlearn and create the
possibility of even being safe and secure. I think sometimes
people then have the immediate expectation that a safe, secure

(38:20):
relationship is one without conflict, without disagreement, without unmet needs
in any given moment, because things need to be negotiated,
and that is included in a safely grounded relationship in actuality,
because anytimes two individuals who are uniquely different are trying
to relate and navigate life and make decisions for a

(38:41):
future of shared interest, there are going to be those
moments of disconnection. So the goal is not to remove
or expect those to not be present. How can I
always find my way back to safety and security is
the best question.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
How can I repair.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
After these moments of explosion or these moments of disconnection,
assuming that they will still be present, and how can
I always continue to expand that foundation within my relationship
of safety and security doesn't mean that there won't be
upsetting emotions or moments of dysregulation, but we can as
a system returned back to that peace and that grounded

(39:19):
state of calm.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yeah, how do you know on that point of when
there is love? I think we always hear things like
you'll know when you know, and you know you just
feel it, like no matter what you love someone like
I find that it's so interesting because, like we said,
you're not familiar with peace, so when peace comes up,
you create chaos. We're not familiar with love, and so

(39:42):
how do you know love is there? Because you may
not be familiar from your childhood with what it feels
like to be loved unconditionally or wonderfully in whatever way.

Speaker 4 (39:52):
That means, how do we then find it? How do
we then.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Notice it because we don't necessarily have a clear experience
of it.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, it's a really it's a beautiful question even to consider,
and a painful, I think question too to come to
the reality that we might not have that embodied memory,
if you will, of what it actually feels like to
be in this sense of safety and security and love.
And I think maybe this it would benefit a discussion

(40:21):
of love, maybe really generally, because I think when people
think of love, and it's not to say it's not
a feeling. The the way I define love at least
is it is a feeling in connection with an action, right,
It's a sense of compassion, of consideration of let me
even bring it back scond, of awareness of another individual,

(40:44):
and then the ability to be considerate, compassionate, not only
in thought and feeling right, Like I can sit here
and feel a sense of love for you, but I
believe love extends beyond that into an action, right, Am
I able to then show up in this embodiment, whether
it just to support you in being present with you
when you're in an emotion that's upsetting or overwhelming, whether

(41:06):
it's to show up in more active or objective support
of you in whatever way that it is that you
might need it, So to know if we're able to
or when in which we're in that space. Again, all
of this goes back to the body, because unless we're
present in our body in our emotions, unless we're able
to feel right, to attune emotionally, to hold space and

(41:30):
to sense that there is someone else that I want
to consider and to show those levels of care, we
have to be grounded in our body, to connect with
our heart, to connect with the emotion of compassion and care,
and then to act from that embodied place, Because again,
what we're looking for is that presence that's a loving

(41:51):
action in and of itself, outside of the other ways,
of course, that we can more objectively support someone. So
again I think it's if we're looking for that roller
coaster of biochemical emotions, if we're looking for us to
be like, you know, kind of hit over the head
with this like love spell, I think again we're going
to be looking for something that might not necessarily exist.

(42:13):
Because again, I think love happens in those grounded moments
we're able to extend space and awareness that there is
someone else that I can and want to care about.
Because when we're in a survival mode, when we're not
calm and ground it and safe and secure in our
own body, we can't even consider a perspective outside of

(42:33):
our own, let alone show up and care and compassion
of that perspective or that individual and their best interest.
So again, foundationally in the body, I can't make a
case enough for how important it is to be in
loving action. We have to be connected to our body,
our heart in particular, we have to be grounded and
safe in our nervous system and responsive in how we

(42:53):
choose to show up.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
This point about being connected to your body is so valuable,
and I recently discovered I felt deeply for the first
time a disconnect I had with mine and it came
from my childhood. So I remember when I was young,
I would say probably preteens and maybe into my early
teenage years, there was a I used to experience my

(43:17):
heart beating fast, losing my breath, like feeling quite in
physically what would be considered like even like pain in
the heart region, like tight chestedness, like physically, and I
remember I would tell my mom, and my mom would
take me to the doctors, and we go to the doctors.
They'd wire me up with certain like technology or tools
that would measure my heart rate and things like that,

(43:39):
and they'd tell me to wear it for the next
twenty four hours, sometimes the next seventy two hours, and
I'd wear it to school or whatever would be under
my shirt, I remember, And then they'd look at the
records and they'd be like, he's absolutely fine, like he's fine,
and I'd be like, I'm pretty sure I'm not fine,
Like I definitely feel something. I don't feel it for
seventy two hours, but I do have moments where I
feel it. And my mom would be like, well, I'm

(44:01):
not I'm going to get you checked again. Because she'd
always care, and my mom's always been a very loving individual,
and so she'd introduce me to more specialists, and they'd
always come back and just say, oh, maybe he needs
inhaler because he has asthma. And then I remember testing
that for a bit and that wasn't it, and they
were like, oh no, sorry, we gave him an ala.
It wasn't that, And so they wouldn't know, and I
forgot about that. I think I actually started living so

(44:24):
disconnected from my body because I didn't know what that meant,
and so I didn't want to feel it anymore. And
so I started real living quite cerebrally and mentally, and
I got fascinated with mastering the mind and everything else
that I've done in my life. And it's so interesting
that recently I was sitting with my wife and we
were talking about this and I was like, I was
experiencing anxiety, and I was experiencing nervousness and I was

(44:46):
experiencing stress. And when I was ten years old, twenty
six years ago, no one was talking about those things
and doctors, no one was telling me that. And where
I grew up in England, like I didn't know anyone
who had a therapist until even recently, so I didn't
have a therapist that was telling me that, and I
feel like I focused to live outside of my body

(45:06):
for so long because I couldn't make sense of it,
and because authorities and elders and experts in my life
couldn't validate an experience that I was having. It almost
made me feel stupid for having it when I was
a kid. And now I look back and I go, no,
wonder I lost touch with my body, And so getting
back in touch with my body again is looking back
at something at childhood which I lost, and now in

(45:29):
my life today I feel so much more closely connected
with it again where I'm like, ah, I can spot stress.
Oh that isn't sat Okay, I know what's going on.
I know breath work. Now, I have my meditation tools,
I have my toolkit to help me, but I can
now experience all of it in my body. If I'm
waking up earlier or I'm having disrupted sleep, I know
it's because I'm stressed about something in my daytime. So

(45:50):
does that make any sense? With this connected body?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
I'm shaking my head so whole heartily, Jay, because that
feeling that I descripped earlier in my chest very young,
I remember being a very little kid sitting They're usually
laying awake at night when a lot of anxiety would
happen for me, I now looking back, believe was anxiety.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
And I was emotionally.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Alone, so completely overwhelmed, and I lived then with near
constant anxiety.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Up through my twenties.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
I had panic attack after panic attack, and so two
things that translated to a general disconnect from my body,
so much so that when I've been an athlete my
whole life, I played softball through college and generally lived
in cities, walked things like that, try to keep myself active.
Anytime I would be doing a more vigorous movement and

(46:38):
my heart rate would start to elevate and my body
would start to mimic the panic attack feelings, I would
start to immediately think I was gonna have a panic attack.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
I need to avoid it.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So over time, gradually I start to even limit not
only generally how much time I spend in my body,
how much time I was moving, because certain movements would
mimic and bring me back. So any time I would
feel a discomfort, especially in my heart, oh, avoid that
exercise that's not for me. And so over time disconnected

(47:09):
from my body, avoiding anything that could help me reconnect
with my body because it felt too much like anxiety
living that same embodied way away from my emotions on
my spaceship like I call it. Yet my number one
complaint in relationship after a relationship was how emotionally disconnected
I felt, just like we've been talking about, pointed the
finger outside of myself. It must be the person I'm picking.

(47:31):
You're not able to meet me on my emotional level.
Onto the next relationship where lo and behold after a
couple months of honeymoon and those you know chemicals were
off and that I was back into were disconnected again,
not seeing how all of this connected back to my childhood.
Overwhelmed with emotion, my body and the emotions which were
totally normal too much for me to handle. I created

(47:54):
this disconnect that I then lived in on this spaceship.
And then I held everyone rep reponsible for that disconnection
that I was playing a part in creating. And again,
if that isn't for me, was an invitation to rebuild.
And I think this is the other side of the
coin here. All that awareness was beautiful. Now I'm still
tasked with the daily commitment of reconnecting and living in

(48:18):
my body and there are a lot of moments where
I still meet whether it's physical discomfort emotional discomfort, because
now I have a lot of tension, that I carry
a lot of muscles and hunched posture, that I'm always
trying to stretch and work out of my body, and
that physical discomfort makes me want to say, you know what,
I don't want to do this today, I'll do this tomorrow.
Yet staying committed to releasing that tension, same thing emotionally,

(48:41):
feeling really vulnerable and uncomfortable being emotionally vulnerable and asking
for the support I need, but knowing that that's what's
going to create that level of attunement that I'm looking for.
So all of this for me remains a daily commitment
because even though logically I can stay here and on
podcasts after podcasts how important these things are. Yet all
of this wiring and this discomfort and this vulnerability and

(49:03):
all of these beliefs are still present. That it is
a conscious, intentional choice every day for me to say no.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Nicole.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Foundationally, your day begins in your body, whether it's just
you know, twenty to thirty minutes of gentle stretching and
silent reflection, I'm in my own vessel before I then
go and serve the world. And that isn't to say
that my email isn't distracting me. I don't have all
of these things I should be doing running through my
head every morning. But I use this as an illustration,

(49:32):
and again because I think some people think that oh,
awareness equals oh, I just shift and change and become
right this new person. And especially if we're talking about
reconnecting with our body and developing the ability to tolerate
stress and upsetting emotions, that awareness is going to take
a lot of practice to put into place the tools
and the resources in our bodies so that we can

(49:53):
begin to contain the discomfort.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Yeah, and I think that negativity you've just sparked for me,
This thought that recently I've been practicing more as well,
is that that negativity we feel externality when we don't
like someone or someone's causing us pain, we start seeing
our body in the same way. And so I found
that often, even though I consider myself to be quite
a positive, uplifting person for myself and for the people

(50:18):
around me, with my body, I've actually sometimes have a
very different relationship. And I found myself critiquing my body.
I found myself being negative about it if I've got
a cold or if I've developed Over Christmas, I had
a really bad parunculated tonsil, like it was really really
swollen and huge. You could see it if I just

(50:38):
opened my mouth, and I was just constantly like God,
just go away, like I got so much to deal with,
Like you know, I need to use my voice for
my work. And I had this negative cycle.

Speaker 4 (50:47):
And one of my.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Friends, who's a healer and you know, a wonderful teacher
in his own right, he said to me it was
just like Jay, like, you know, you need to take
the medicine and you need and I'd been taking at
this point, I'd been taking antibiotics and everything, and nothing
was It wasn't going away. I was like, been on
a course for two weeks, like nothing's happening. And he
gave me some natural remedies, but he was saying, obviously,
you need to do the right remedy and take the

(51:07):
right practice. But he was like, you need to change
your relationship with this, Like your relationship with your body
is your body's your best friend. It's telling you, hey,
I'm not feeling so good right now. There's I'm trying
to warn you of something. I'm trying to let you
know what's going on, and you're telling your body to
shut up and go away and get lost and just
sort it out. And he was just like, just think
about it differently, like the idea that your body's actually

(51:29):
trying to help you. If your body is tired because
you haven't slept enough, guess what your body's saying, take
some rest. If your body is panicking because you've finally
done some exercise or done something challenging, it's your body
saying we're not used to this.

Speaker 4 (51:41):
We need to get used to it.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
And so your body's actually on your side, and even
pain is helping you recognize that there's something to shift.
Whether it's your diet, whether it's your and you talk
about this in the book, but whether it's your diet,
whether it's your supplements, whether it's activity, whether it's meditation, stillness,
but we look at it as a net negative signal
rather than a sign of actual help.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
I'm really really relating to this coming from a childhood
where there was a lot of not only chronic pain,
chronic illness, and so for me, any sort of physiological
symptom near Immediately my mind goes to the possibility of
or even likelihood of it being a catastrophic even illness.

(52:28):
And so for so long I on moment, you know,
the second I sensed a shift or a possible symptom
or a sickness or something coming on, I would go
into kind of that fear based oh my gosh, what
is this? A sign of kind of mentality. And at
the same time, for me, physical illness was a point

(52:51):
of connection with my mom because my mom one of
the moments in time, especially with my older sister who
suffered from a lot of chronic illness, my mom was
able to be present when she needed to physically care
for myself or my siblings. So now, right, I have
this complicated nature, and I would see a kind of

(53:12):
a remnant of this through my twenties. When I'm twenty
years old, right, I have a sinus infection at this
point know exactly what to take is the same thing
I've taken for probably the decade before.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
For my sinus infection.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Yet I have memories of being in the drug store
in New York calling my mom and saying.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Oh Mom, I'm sick again. You know what do I need?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
And she was saying, oh, gay Claiton, which is the
thing I always get, you know, and for me I'm
understanding now that was a moment where I was looking
for connection. So how complicated my relationship became with my body?

Speaker 3 (53:41):
Right?

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Where there was a certain almost desire to be sick? Yes,
because now I can have the love and attention of
my mom right and then there's a fear of being
sick because that could mean something catastrophic. Then sometimes in
my mind went upset with someone else. I go down
to exactly what I heard my childhood growing up, where
a statement my mom used to make is you'll miss

(54:03):
me when I'm gone. So sometimes my mind now will
fantasize to hurt someone that has hurt me something that
happens to me typically probably guess but now where I'm sick, Oh, well,
you'll be upset. Won't you be upset? If something wor
to really happen to me? How will that be for you?

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Right?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
In all of this world now, manufacturer created from this
early experience complicating my relationship with my body and is
still to this day, I have a lot of unlearning
that symptoms like you beautifully said, I are just signals,
not signals of a terminal illness, just a signal. Right,
So really, for me not only learning how to connect

(54:42):
with my body, how to unlearn some of these more
kind of catastrophic beliefs, and how to learn how to
connect with people outside of me needing someone to physically
care for me, is all still kind of really a
complicated mess.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
Yeah, how do you start?

Speaker 1 (54:58):
What are the therapy based, healing based neurological actions and
habits we can take to rewire that? Because you're so right, Like,
some people will get ill and then they're they're manifesting
like I'm going to get cancer, right, Like it's like
a feeling of like, oh no, this is the worst.
I was sweeing to someone else the other day who
said to me, they've really believed that their success is

(55:18):
one day just going to crumble because they don't deserve it,
and it's something they've always believed. And so how do
you unmanifest Like, how do you almost rewire that thought process?
Because that again is a repetitive thought.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
A belief just going to start there the way I
simply define a belief, It's a repeated thought grounded in
our lived experience. So kind of breaking those two kind
of sections the way we navigate then beliefs, right, because
we can't just affirm our way out of them. We
can't just give ourselves a new belief. It doesn't necessarily work.

(55:53):
Though we can acknowledge that we have repeated certain narratives,
certain beliefs in our mind. Right, those neurmals works have
fired outside of our awareness time and time again, and
we'll continue to fire outside of our awareness time and
time again the same every time a similar event happens
that would elicit that sort of interpretation, meaning what we

(56:13):
do in the moment, We don't anticipate that, oh, these
beliefs aren't working for me, so I'm just going to shut.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
The volume off and they'll go away. Absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
They will occur again the same time a similar experience
warrants them. What we can do is show up as
the empowered presence, right, the conscious being, and we can
choose how much attention we're giving. Right, are we going
to hook our full attention on and keep repeating the
belief once it is kind of offered in our mind,
or are we going to say, oh, right, there's that

(56:42):
old belief again in my mind? It isn't necessarily accurate
or true, or I know it's not true, and now
I can choose somewhere else to put my attention. That's
the first half. The second half, the more powerful half.
Why we can't just affirm our way of our belief
is because of what's happening in our body. Like we
were talking about earlier, We've validated this experience.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
We feel this to be true.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
So the only way we're going to shift that embodied
experience is if we begin to make new embodied choices
to show up in action countering that belief.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Even before I believe otherwise.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
So, just to use an example common belief, I think
that is at the core of many of our relational
habits is how we're not worthy. Right, So the next
time when you hear all the litany of reasons remind
you of why you're not worthy, right, we notice it,
we pull our attention away. Doesn't mean that I'm going
to feel worthy immediately. Does mean, though, that I can
show up and begin to show up in actions of worthiness.

(57:42):
How might someone who is worthy treat themselves generally or
in this moment.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
And then consistently over time make those choices even before
you believe you're worthy and knowing somewhere down the line.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
If we weaken that belief network by pulling our attention
away every time it fires, and if we're now strengthening
a new belief network by inaction embodying a new choice
that will allow us to feel differently and maybe affirming
a new thought, now we have the beginnings of a
new network that will, over time take over where that

(58:16):
old network existed.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Yes, yes, yes, I remember kind of discovering this through
the studies I did when I was a monk. And
one of the practices that I developed, and this was
to develop qualities that were recommended for people of spiritual
culture to have and to reduce the effect of qualities

(58:42):
that were not seen as aspirational. And so I remember
writing down my top three to five most repeated thoughts
around a particular thing, and I'd put a line down
the middle of a piece of paper, and I would
write down the script of what my mind currently says

(59:03):
in that trigger, in that response, in that moment, and
then for each point I would write an alternative script.
And the key was the alternative script was not about
being positive or not about being the opposite. I think
that's what I've often seen. So for example, if we
took if we took the basic premise of I'm not
enough or I'm not worthy, as you just said, and

(59:26):
on the other side, off you just run under best
thing in the world Like that doesn't work. Like it
needs to be more comprehensive and thoughtful than that. It
needs to be more valuable than that. It may be
I am worthy as I am, I've always been worthy.
There's not a moment of becoming worthy. And what I
found is the more that I researched those, the more
that I read books like this and created paragraphs to

(59:49):
support it, and the more I rehearsed it like an actor,
like a script, you started realizing your script just changed.
And all that you ever did was memorize an old
script and learn a new one trade it. That's all
it was anyway. It was never that one was true
and one was false. It was just that you had
a script that you learned from your caregivers since the

(01:00:09):
beginning and from the people that loved you first, and
all of a sudden, you have a new script now.
And it's so interesting to me that we so deeply
define ourselves by thinking we are our thoughts, and how
much our thoughts are seen as non different from ourselves.
But actually they're scripts. They're just scripts. And which script

(01:00:31):
you've read the most and practiced the most and rehearsed
the most is your reality.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Yeah, And I think what we are missing is the
foundational role that our and other people's body sensations played
at the creation and repetition right of those scripts. And
I've been talking a lot about a good old descartes.
I think therefore, I am and a lot of us
do have and embody that belief that all of the

(01:00:56):
power right is in the mind, and the mind carries
this reality, and that's so simply not true. All of
the power actually lives in our body and our instinctual body.
And what participated in creating those scripts again was what
was happening in our body and all of the other
bodies that we're navigating those moments around us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
And then that continues to be the case.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
We pay most attention to what's going on in our mind,
not becoming aware that even in the current moment, what
was happening in our mind was usually activated by the
shifts in our body, by the fact that our nervous
system outside of our awareness is always assessing and looking
for possible threat based on what was once threatening to us.

(01:01:40):
So all of these physiological shifts that you and I
keep focusing on and talking about are initiating for a
lot of us the thoughts that we then become present
to in our minds. So until we understand again the
foundational role that the body continues even to play in
shaping our thoughts ultimately and shaping our beliefs, and then
creating the opportunity to change both of those categories of

(01:02:03):
thinking and believing, right, we're not going to be able
to create the shifts ultimately that we want, and when
we do, that's when I.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Think we can create incredible transformation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
One of the things I love doing on the show
is really clearly defining terms that I think are starting
to become very mainstream or viral on TikTok or you know,
these terms that I think often all to get thrown around,
and so I wanted you to please define for us
what is a trauma bond, because I feel like that's
a term that is gaining popularity and gaining traction, but

(01:02:34):
often we're not really sure of what it means.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
What is a trauma bond.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
I think a trauma bond is a relationship in which
dysfunctional habits exist. And I'm giving a very intentionally giving
a very expanded definition because I know clinically in the
field for a very long time, trauma bond. I forget
who it is that coined the term years ago, now Carns,
I'm forgetting is exact name, but around a relationship in

(01:02:58):
which there was abuse, usually active physical or sexual abuse,
and kind of felt connection or commitment within that relationship.
And I actually think this kind of mirrors my own
expansion of definitions such as trauma include it to I
think categorize the many other versions of trauma bond patterning

(01:03:19):
of breaking cycles as I share in this subtitle, that
exists within relationships. So again, really simply, it's the relational
pattern that a lot of us learned that was adaptive
in early childhood and those earlier relationships that we then
rely on because it's predictable. It includes our identity, it
includes the predictable identities of all of those that were

(01:03:40):
relating to and we rely on that kind of dynamic,
the felt security in that dynamic. Let me say it
that way, as our home base, So a trauma bond
I think applies to a lot of us. I think
there's a lot of dysfunctional habits that many of us
are carrying in particularly around emotions and how we relate

(01:04:02):
to and navigate emotions in relationships that many of us
are still experiencing. And to answer a question that maybe
listeners are having, because sometimes I do then get asked,
well can you change a trauma bond?

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Is a trauma bond doomed?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
And I will be the first to say that when
I began my relationship with Lally, it was absolutely had
a lot of trauma bond patterning. It's what attracted us
to each other on some level and through dedicated.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Action on both of our parts.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
I absolutely believe and have seen obviously many other instances
where trauma bond just like attachment patterns, I think this
is another very common language in my opinion, at least,
they are not be all end all categories that are
you know, kind of for a lifetime or a terminal
sentence if you will. So, trauma bond again, dysfunctional habits

(01:04:51):
that exist in our relationships, typically habits that were once
adaptive or protective at one time that get repeated that
can absolutely be changed.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
That's so interesting though what you said that they were
once protective, and what's really interesting that you said was
that now.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
They become.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
In the relationship, Oh, that you're even attracted to each
other because of those like it can even be the
foundation of why you get together with someone, which is
even harder to lose because that was what brought together.
So you almost feel like there's so much value to it.
So how do you break that cycle?

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Then?

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
When it's almost like I'm attracted to you because of
this trauma bond and we're starting to have that dependence
on each other, how does one then break that apart
when it feels like that's the reason you came together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
This is kind of I think, going down another rabbit
hole in a sense of attraction, because I think attraction
is another word, you know, like we were talking about
earlier in terms of familiarity and habitual right, a lot
of times that which we think were attracted to is
really that which is familiar to us, Like it's kind
of an attraction based on the familiarity principle, if you will.

(01:06:01):
So I think when we're considering that aspect, what yes
does feel familiar and therefore attracts quote unquote us to
many of the partners that we choose are the habits
that we are used to, right, not necessarily what we
want to consciously choose to create. So when we again

(01:06:23):
become aware of what we're carrying in, what those early
dynamics are, then I think we could get a bit
clearer in terms of whether or not we're attracted to familiarity,
or whether or not this is someone that we want
to pursue a future with, and regardless again, because like
I said, we can become attracted to familiar and then
create a future that's not familiar at all for the

(01:06:46):
two of us, you know, walking in a direction that
we are intentionally choosing. What empowers that shift is intentionality,
in my opinion, conscious awareness, each separately or together as partner,
showing up and saying I'm understand standing, right, these dynamics
about myself.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
These are the changes that I want.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
To make, right, This is how I see us going
together in the future. So I think when we have
the awareness and then have the communication, we can create
the opportunity right to not only get clearer in terms
of even if we were attracted to something that was
familiar doesn't mean that it's not workable for us to
keep both of our best interests in mind and create

(01:07:25):
a future that works for both of us.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
What is what is real?

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
An another term or another practice that I think has
also gained again mass attention more recently is in a
Child work, and I feel like it's it's really interesting
because we are starting to gain this language around how
we have an in a child at all times and
a lot of our inner child's needs unmet. You talk
about authentic needs in the book, and now we spend

(01:07:50):
our adult life in some way trying to fulfill those
unmet in a child needs, But often in our adult
life it can take us in so many different directions
and keep us lost. What are some of the mistakes
we make in trying to meet and in a child's needs?
And what are some of the healthier ways we could

(01:08:10):
choose to meet our in a child's needs and even
if they're needed?

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Yeah, understanding, I think even just this concept of in
our child, I think this is another one of them
that we could.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Upon hearing it inner child.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
I'm an adult, that's right, this doesn't apply to me,
And I think what kind of an inner child. How
we can define that is the subconscious space of our
mind as I've been describing throughout that houses a lot
of this patterned way of being that was created at
that time. Right, that was the adaptation in terms of

(01:08:43):
how we had to shift and change and what needs
were getting met or not getting met, and what emotions
that we had to or aspects of our self expression
like I described earlier that weren't appropriate or that we
were shamed right for having. So that ultimately all of
this now is beneath the surface. It's still for a
lot of of driving a lot of our reactivity. Even
those moments that I've been sharing with the dishes, right,

(01:09:04):
I'm becoming emotional. Right, that was a moment where my
owner child was very alive. Right, I was feeling the
feelings back in time of that unmet need of not
having that attunement. So when we I think the first
shift is understanding that that exists inside of us, that
we are kind of compelled and wired and we do

(01:09:26):
have needs, and beginning then to explore how we are
showing up in service of our needs. Is there space
in our general day, is there space in our relational
day to make sure that I'm caring for my physical self.
Is there room and space for my emotions? Am I
giving and receiving the support that relationships allow for? And
do I feel safe to be who I am?

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
And chances are if you're not kind of overwhelmingly saying yeah,
I'm feeling pretty calm, grounded. I can take care of
my needs, I can share my emotions, we can negotiate
for future. I'm able to be myself. Then a lot
of what probably is happening are the habits of our
inner child, So becoming then clear how it is and
creating space to break those patterns first, right, kind of

(01:10:12):
shifting out of those habitual ways of being and creating
an opportunity to show up newly and for a lot
of us, that means even bringing a full circle, learning
a new relationship with our body, really simplifying it, looking
into our sleep habits, looking into our nutritional habits, looking
at how we navigate stress and the impact that it
has on us, and then creating new habits that can

(01:10:36):
better care for our nervous systems that ultimately we can
be more attuned to our emotions and more able to
share those with somebody else.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Yeah, one of the things you talk about in the book,
which I really resonated with was the seven conditions selves caretaker, overachiever, underachiever, rescue,
a protector, life of the party, yes person, and hero worshiper.
And I was thinking about this a lot because I've
that a lot of people. Naturally, the way we see it,
they're still playing that role, that role that allowed them

(01:11:06):
to feel safe, protected, in control when they were younger.
They're still demonstrating that role, and often that role today
can actually lead them to becoming extremely successful, extremely accomplished,
extremely adored, famous, rich, what everything else? Like, it can
do so much, but then they almost get exhausted a

(01:11:28):
playing that role. Or you recognize it's a role, and
it was a role that you took on, but it
was never you. It wasn't the you you wanted to be.
It was the you you had to be. How do
you reconcile that? How does someone reconcile whether they're externally
quote unquote successful or not, just they've recognized now they're like,
I've been playing this role. Maybe I was the peacekeeper,

(01:11:49):
maybe I was the comedian, maybe I was the mediator
since I was young, But actually I don't like that role.
I don't want to be that role, but now not
only as that role been protective of me for so long,
how do I give it up? Who would I be
without it? And can I construct another self?

Speaker 3 (01:12:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
I mean you're beautifully giving language to not only the questions,
though to the process of I think reconciliation. So once
we've become aware that there is a role we're playing,
which for a lot of us is very shame relieving,
because I know for me very much identifying with the overachiever,

(01:12:28):
very much being validated by society that celebrated many of
my achievements, I carried a ton of shame as I
started to feel really disconnected and unfulfilled with this life
that was supposedly create it to make me feel validated
and happy and fulfilled. And so when I didn't immediately
feel that way, I started to worry and wonder what

(01:12:51):
was wrong with me? Right, So, without the language to
have kind of zoomed back and say, oh, well, it's
understandable you don't feel disconnected to your life, Nicole, because
you're not authentically living it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
You achieved all of these things in service of seeking
your mom's attention, seeking your mom's love seeking the sense
of worthiness in action and in reality. It doesn't represent
who you authentically are, because in many moments you're not
even sharing who you authentically are with anyone. So that
awareness piece, I think, for a lot of us, can

(01:13:24):
be hugely shame relieving, though it doesn't shift us into
maybe the embodied self or the self expression or authentic
expression that we want and need to create. Right, we
have to break the habit of being this person, of
playing this role, of wearing this mask, and create a
new habit of showing up in our authenticity, which for

(01:13:46):
a lot of us is very destabilizing. We've wrapped these identities.
Some of us even prided ourself. Some of us, like myself,
created a whole life around this identity that now we're questioning.
Could feel shameful because we're older now we should know
who we are and what we want, so that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
Could feel overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
We might need to shed right some of the actual
identity in service like how we are showing up now,
we are making like strategically new choices, so we're shedding identity.
For a lot of us, it means mourning and grieving
the circumstances that create it. The need for me to
play that role right, the unmet needs, the aspects of

(01:14:27):
myself that I was taught was too unworthy to be expressed.
So for a lot of us, it's getting curious, it's questioning,
it's creating the space to grieve and be with our
pain and the resilience to begin to make new choices,
because again, all of that is still governed by our body.
Because now we're going to show up against the expectation

(01:14:49):
of a lot of people. We're going to be challenging
a lot of people, other people's perception of us. We're
going to be challenging the dynamic like we talked about earlier,
that was repeated and validated over time, and now we're
showing going up not playing this role that we've already played.
And so the stress that we're going to create in
all of the systems outside of us is going to
create the scenario where we feel now overwhelmed and before

(01:15:12):
we know what, we're right back in those old habits
so forever.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
On the book, it's called how to Be the Love
You Seek, break cycles, find peace and heal your relationships.
Doctor Nicole Lepera the holistic Psychologist on Instagram if you
don't follow already doctor Nicole. And Nicole, thank you so
much for giving us a masterclass on this and like
I said, we've dived into one percent of what's inside

(01:15:38):
the book. There is so much more insights this book.
I highly recommend it, and I was very grateful that
you included my testimonial on the back, which I very
deeply felt, very deeply in my heart to share with you.
But I'm so grateful for everything you've shared today, all
the insights, and thank you for going there with me
on so many different pathways. I wanted to make sure
and a call. Is there anything that I didn't ask

(01:15:59):
you that you'd love to share, or anything that's on
your heart right now that you feel compelled to share
with the community.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
Well, I appreciate you asking.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
I appreciate it as always shot your support. I did
appreciate the opportunity to kind of go into a lot
of aspects of my own journey in this conversation. So
I'm hoping it was of service of course everyone out
there listening, and I thank you all for tuning in.

Speaker 4 (01:16:19):
Absolutely, Thank you, doctor Nika.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with
doctor Gable Matte on understanding your trauma and how to
heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a
tree doesn't go where it's hard and thick, does it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:37):
It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Nicole LePera: How to Break the Cycle of Trauma Bonds & Stop Toxic Relationship Habits