September 26, 2023 • 59 mins
This week on Onward, Rosie has a fascinating conversation with Lyle Menendez.
Many of a certain age will remember the sensational trials of Lyle and his brother Eric, found guilty of the murder of their parents. So sensational within the American zeigeist; this case has been made into movies and tv shows, it has also been studied in law school as well as a mainstay of cultural conversation.
Recently, new information and evidence has been revealed in a documentary that now gives room for the brothers' to file a Habeas; which could mean freedom, after serving 34 years in prison.
Join us as Rosie and Lyle talk about the past, the possible future of what this new evidence could mean; and, how one has to find it within themself to remain hopeful, but truthful, even in the worst of circumstances.
After listening, please send voice memos of your thoughts, observations and questions on this episode to:
OnwardRosie@gmail.com
Trigger Warning: Rape, Sexual and Emotional Child Abuse, and Incest is discussed in this episode.
Please Note: This discussion is not graphic in nature, but, this is a truthful account of events.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Well, hey everybody, it is me Rosie O'Donnell. How are
you on this Tuesday? Are you doing well?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Listen? I got to tell you what happened.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I wake up on this school morning and I hear
the freaking lawnmower guy going and it's seven point fifteen,
and I don't know what to do. I'm thinking I
should go out there and go across the street and
talk to them, or next to my where it must
be right next door, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So I get up, I.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Do my morning routine, I come downstairs and I see
it's my yard that has the guy with the weed
whacker and the blower. Now I live in a rented
house here, right, so I don't schedule the pool and
the lawn people. That's you know, taken care of by
the lord. But I was so mad. I was so
(01:03):
ready to go over and yell at one of my neighbors,
you know, and I was the bad neighbor.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So there you have it. That's what happened to me
this morning. Listen.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We have a very interesting show today, and I want
to give a trigger warning right up front. These are
issues that are discussed during my conversation. Rape, sexual child abuse,
emotional abuse and incest. And this discussion is not graphic
in any nature, but it's a truthful discussion of events
(01:37):
with those topics. So I want everyone to make sure
that they're ready to listen to this. It might be
hard for some people, and I'm acknowledging that. So here
we go. I'm going to be speaking with Lyle Menendez.
As you know, he and his brother were convicted of
(01:57):
the nineteen ninety six murder of their pa parents, Jose
and Mary Louise Kitty Menendez. Lyel Menendez is fifty five
years old. In March, I watched a documentary that presented
new evidence in their case, and the result of that
evidence now leaves them in a position where they may
(02:19):
be re sentenced. And that's the hope with new evidence
and a habeas And Lyle is very smart and he
understands all of this. And he and I have a conversation.
You know, he is in prison, and we left in
all of the interruptions with the prison telephone system. I
(02:39):
thought it felt real and provided some kind of a
frame as to his life for the last thirty four
years in prison. Now sit back and listen to myself
and Lyel Menendez.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Hello, let me merge you.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Hello, Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Well today we.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
Are going to have a long discussion with somebody that
you've heard of and you've had an opinion about. Probably
I've come to know him in the last few months,
and so here he is Lyeon Menendez.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Hello, Lyle, how are you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Hi, Rosie? And we're doing pretty well, pretty well? Thank you.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
Work in all, Andrew, A telephone number will be monitored
and recorded for.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Having me big news in your case that had came
out sometime in March about a former member of Menudo,
and tell everybody your father's connection to Menudo.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
My father was a record executive in charge of RCA Records,
so had an huge number of artists and took an
interest in a Latin band, the boy band Menudo, and
befriended the producer and kind of owner of the group
(04:21):
in the early eighties, nineteen eighties, and.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
So just recently a guy that had you ever heard
of Roy?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I have not really heard of any of the band
members other than Ricky Martin, probably like everybody else right
in the United States. You know, it was kind of
a big band, but the kind of names kind of
came to go because I kept replacing the teenagers in
the group.
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Yeah, they as they got older, As they got older,
they kicked them out and got a new kid, right.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, so it was a creepy concept from the beginning,
I guess.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
Yeah, without it, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, And it turned out to be somewhat purposeful as
things have come out, uh in documentaries and investigations in
Puerto Rico and overseas. But uh so I did not
know Roy and didn't know the fact that he had
(05:22):
been uh right by my father and was another victim
came out through a documentary investigation they were doing on
the band, separately from anything related to Eric and I.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And that documentary has now kind of paved the way
for possible freedom for you and your brother.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Well, the trial always, you know, a large part of
the tild revolved around what do you believe was the
reason for the family violence in the case, And so yeah,
there was no question there was a gradual elevens was
presented in the second trial, a lot of it was excluded.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
Yeah, I think I think that was something that really
surprised me. You know, the first trial, the one that
we watched on TV with Leslie Abrams and you and
your brother.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That trial was You were not found guilty in that trial, right, It.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Was like nine to three from manslaughter and that was
two juris. Eric was six to six and I think
that was nine to three, so it was not very
very close, right.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
So in the interim after that, they decided to try
you again, right, But it's how many years?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Six years?
Speaker 4 (06:42):
I know, I think it was like two and a
half years in between. It seemed like forever because it
was enough time for the La riots, the Rodney King
beating case to be acquitted of O. J. Simpson got acquitted.
His whole trial occurred in between our two trials, and
you know a number of TV movies were released, so
(07:03):
we really came into the second trial in a very
different position in terms of the public and the DA.
Speaker 6 (07:09):
And the same judge that presided over your first trial
was the presiding over this trial, and they decided together
that they would not allow any evidence of the sexual
abuse to be used in the second trial.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
It was extremely limited. So it pretty it put Eric
in a position to just sort of had to take
the stand and talk about it all without any real
supporting witnesses and family members that knew about it. So
of course, that made it much harder for the jury
to know what to believe. And then you had the
prosecutor that they changed the prosecutor to somebody who was
(07:49):
more aggressively willing to say that things were just not true,
even though I think he knew that probably wasn't the
case because he had excluded a lot of the evidence
that showed that certain things which are And so that
Joe changed some of the dury instructions. They asked that
the cameras returned off so the public couldn't watch. And
(08:09):
it just had that feeling of being sort of, you know,
a maneuvered.
Speaker 8 (08:17):
To get a certain result, and then that did happen, right,
And the result changed your life in the world forever,
because you and your brother both got life without the
possibility of paroles.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Right, you know, we went from really thinking that there
was an argument about manslaughter to suddenly having the kind
of sentence that like a serial killer has.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
How old were you on that night in nineteen eighty nine?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I was twenty when my brother was eighteen.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Right, And the of you started in your house when
you were quite young. But for you, you had arrested
when you turned eight, correct.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I was, and I was sexual with you with my
father between like six and eight, and I complained to
a family member. She complained to my mother about it,
and so it stopped. It's hard to it. Told me
to know if it stopped immediately afterwards, but it seemed
like it did. And uh, and then it just I
(09:30):
and then clearly my father moved on to my brother, and.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Which was not known by you, not known by you.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I had some sense that something might have been going
on in my mid teens, but I confronted my father
and brother, and neither one said that it was true. Uh.
And I just sort of went into denial about it
and did not really hear about it again until a
(10:00):
week a little bit less than a week before August
twenty when the shootings occurred.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Yeah, the week before that occurred, you were in Princeton
with your mother, setting up your off campus apartment for your.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Starting school back at Princeton.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Correct. Yeah, I was supposed to start my sophomore year
in college at Princeton. I played for the tennis team,
and it was kind of my hometown too. Princeton's where
I went to high school, and some of the mother
wanted we saided having to move off campus closer to
(10:38):
my aunt. So they brought a condominium out there and
then she came out to help me furnish it, and
we had just finished all that. So I was just
in a very good place myself. Obviously, I came from
you very traumatic childhood, but you know, you kind of
sometimes you can survive your childhood and you go on
and you can function, you knows a good adult. I
(11:01):
felt like I was on my way. I was so fine,
and then I just kind.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Of hit this wall with Eric more after this.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
So you came home and Eric was crying one day
and your mom was.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
What state was your mom?
Speaker 6 (11:39):
And at that point, this was a week after you
two set up your apartment in Princeton.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yeah, I mean, I really want to go through a
whole week if we can avoid it.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
No, No, I was just saying I was trying to
just tell the people the things that I maybe didn't know,
and since being in contact with you and your wife
that I have found out that I thought was interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I don't want to make you go through that, and
that's that I'm just.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
Saying that that night something erupted and the truth of
your family's secret was revealed.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I mean, in a shorter sense, my brother was hoping
to go to was hoping that he would get out
of this situation he was in with his father, where
he was in a you could call it a you know,
he was in a sexual relationship with his father. Obviously
we know that that would be considered like rape and
(12:37):
abuse had been going on for a decade or more.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
And.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
He thought he was going to be able to live
off on campus at e c LA where he was
going to be starting school that September, and when he
was informed by his father that that wouldn't be happening,
he was going to have to stay at home. That
my brother knew that meant the abuse was going to continue.
There was really no way out, and hegan to feel suicidal.
And then he knew that I was about to leave
back to school in New Jersey on the other side
(13:05):
of the country, and so before I could leave, he
felt that he did sit to cry for help and
tell me what had been going on, and that kind
of cascaded into this last couple of days before what
happened of me confronting my father and trying to rescue
my brother from that situation, and that going horribly bad
(13:26):
and threats back, you know, threats back and forth and
turns to be threatening to expose my father and then
my mother, my mother entering it, you know, letting I
was realizing my mother knew in arguments with her, and
our feeling, our level of fear and just just you know,
just overwhelming, really emotion and just led to you know,
(13:51):
just horrific life changing events in.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
A home where there's incests and there's secrets and there's abuse.
People who haven't lived in that kind of situation I
don't think fully understand how captive the child is to
their parent who is controlling them and grooming them and
abusing them.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
In ways that they don't even yet understand.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Especially then, right, I mean, it just happened to me
in the seventies, that happened to Eric in the eighties,
and that you know where this is nineteen eighty nine
and it just wasn't you know, I'm ins interesting because
like the send generation today just assumes that, oh, well,
if you're having trouble at home, you talk to all
(14:41):
your friends, you post about it on social media, people
help you. And there was none of that back then.
You were very isolated. There was no Internet there was
no contacting friends, There was no school counselor asking what's
going on at home? How are you doing? Nobody knew
that there was a problem with sex abusive boys, Nobody
new to ask those questions. There was there was just
(15:04):
no cultural mechanism to believe or understand. And so to
that weekend, it's like, you know, I mean, I felt,
we felt. You know, it's hard to say, you know,
we look back and I feel like I can't believe,
Like it's easy to have for me to look back
and say, wow, I should have just found some way
(15:25):
out of that weekend without violence. But in the moment,
you just feel trapped and it's just overwhelmed and so
you know, and it just shatters everyone's lives. Right. Yeah,
you physically you survive it, but emotionally you don't really
survive it.
Speaker 6 (15:45):
No, And it comes back throughout you know, extent seconds remaining.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Sure yep O that.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Okay, thank you, sorry?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Where we're sorry that you have every fifteen minutes that
cut you off and you have to call that. I
think they don't think that if anyone in prison is
interesting enough to talk you for.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
That's pretty fun.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Not the case.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Not the case.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, so listen. So I think where we were was
talking about like the culture at.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
The time too, that you know, people were not willing
to believe that fathers raped their sons. I think as
a culture, and there's enough proof and there's enough that
fathers raped their daughters, but when you put boys into.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
The equation and.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
People get all tabooed out, they don't they can't imagine.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
It's too much for them to even consider.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
And I think that if Eric was Erica and you
had found out that your father had.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Been raping her for all those years.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
And you protected her, and this is the bad choice
that you.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Wish you didn't but did make at the time, you know,
people would have you as the role of a hero.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
In society, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
I think it would have at least been something that
people understood better and could evaluate what justice is in
that situation.
Speaker 9 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
And I just Eric and I could not get to
that point. Was in the in the early nineties a trial.
Half of their jury they were men, and all of
them afterwards, when they were talking about the jury deliberations
were making comments like, well, you know, he must be gay.
Speaker 7 (17:43):
He could let's call and a telephone number will be
monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It couldn't be that the father was forcing him to
have sex. And there's a total lack of understanding of
what interest is and related to boys, right, And I
don't even think it was accepted in the eighties and
early nize that that fathers or child predators like that.
(18:09):
I think it was. It was another decade or two before,
certainly another decade before after our trial, before people understood
that child molesters or could be your teacher, could be
your gym coach, could be an executive, a father, you know,
predators could be people like Bill Cosby or your you know,
(18:32):
household names, or you're just your neighbor. You know. There
was a sense that child molesters were kind of like
creeps and trench coach hanging around schools and not regular people.
And now, of course we know that's completely untrue.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Completely, there's no.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Type you can be. I mean, back then we were
dealing with lots of myths. Some of the jurists didn't
think that a married man could be somebody that could
also sexually abuse a boy. Of course, we know that's
not true now. A lot of the child molesters that
sexually these boys are married. Right, People didn't believe that
(19:10):
a woman would choose her her predator husband over her children.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Now that happens as well. That happens as well, Right.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
A lot of times what the wife students, the husband's
at the point of bringing children to him. So we
just you know, as well as the danger that children
are and from parents, you know, I don't you know.
So there was just a lot of myths that we
were dealing with in the nineties that led to I
think it really bad result the trial, and yeah, I
don't know, I think it would be very different today.
(19:42):
I remember Dick Wolfe saying at a event that he
was at when he you know, he produced that timetime
series on our case, but I thought it was very
well done.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yes, what was when we folcome right?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
He thought we played Leslie Ayson right, just did a
brilliant job. And uh he said that he felt like
if culturally at the trial had taken place today, it
would have been a more clear manslaughter result. We would
have still done a lot of prison time, but it
would not be you know, in this situation that you
(20:17):
know has to be trying to superget, you know, change it.
You know, So I think, you know, I agree with that.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
You know, you know, people don't realize when I tell
them that you've been communicating.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
People say to me, oh god, what's he been in there,
like twenty years? I'm like thirty four.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Right, thirty.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
People don't realize because you know, it was a cultural
moment for the country and everyone had their opinion on,
you know, whether or not you were in it for
the money, although there really was no evidence or proof
for anything of that besides the spending free that you
(21:01):
traumatize sexually abused incested children responded with a trauma response
after the freedom that that you felt, and as well
as the horror.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Correct, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, I think that view evidence is one is why
it's for me personally. I think my brother too. We've
talked about it. It's so important to be believed, you know.
I don't know what the legal result is. Those things
are kind of out of our hands. We're obviously extremely hopeful.
(21:41):
Our families are very hopeful because you know, we have
our Our whole family supports us almost uniformly, which is
really just been a blessing and amazing and forgiveness, their understanding.
But I you know, I just being believed is so important,
you know, I communicate with I've communicated with just tens
(22:02):
of thousands of specs abuse victims over the years, and
the need to be recognized and believed for what happened
to you is really powerful for healing. And so to
go through a trial where you know, there's a whole
prosecutor's office trying to tell the public, Oh, this is
not true, don't believe it is such a horrifying thing
(22:25):
in itself. Yeah, it's very debilitating. So is something I've
struggled with over the last few decades, and so too,
you know. And then suddenly another victim comes forward, and
now it's like, yeah, it's very hard now for someone
to say they don't believe. That's pretty I mean, I
don't know how you say it now.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
Yeah, I agree, And that not only is the new
evidence of another victim of your father, but your brother's
letter was found by your mother's sister.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Correct, my father's sister, her son and the eric used
to correspond with him in the early eighties and late eighties.
I guess they were both teenagers, and she found a
letter for their growth and they had been in storage
for twenty five years. That wasn't about directly all about
(23:18):
the sex abuse, but referenced it pretty graphically, and so amazingly,
she did not actually give it to anybody, my attorneys
or anything. She gave it to Barbara Walters for a
show because she just didn't think there were even any
appeals going on, and you know, just so much time
(23:39):
had passed by, she just didn't think about it. But
eventually we saw it on that show. People investigated and
realized that there was a letter that no one had found,
had not been presented at trial, had been in storage
for twenty five years because her son had died in
two thousand and three, so she just packed everything up.
And so it's very powerful evidence because it was written
prior to eight months higher to my parents' death, so
(24:02):
it was something you know before, well the reason before,
and kind of proving what happened. So those two new
pieces of evidence they pretty much dispel the notion of
what happened in terms of the least sex abuse right right.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
And and there's a whole generation of people now on
the internet who are college kids who were taught your
case in school, and they're all like, how the hell
did these kids get life without the possibility of parole. Well,
these two new pieces of evidence have given you the
(24:38):
first real shot that possibly.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Not spending the rest of your life in jail with
this habeas. Tell everyone what a habeas is.
Speaker 8 (24:48):
I'm not a legal expert, but I know, but I
know you know what no more than me, what exactly?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Do not operate on yourself, so I don't try like
some of the guys in here in prison that are
legal peoples. But essentially if new evidence, in the case
of new evidence, you would file a habeous like for
you know, uh, you've seen a lot lot because of
the advances in DNA evidence, a lot of people that
(25:17):
were here for rape they've now been able to test
the sperm and realize, oh, that wasn't the rapist. So
what do you do in that situation where twenty five
years later you realize, oh that b I wasn't the rapist.
You file a habeas. You introduced the new evidence, and
an experienced habeast judge you know, evaluates the evidence and
(25:38):
makes a determination that this would have changed the verdict.
So it's the same in this case. You know the
fact that there's no powerful evidence, that there's at least
the underlying kind of foundational issues of sex abuse are true,
then would that have altered the juries verdict? I think
(25:59):
it's pretty obvious probably would. And the tourist, in fact,
after it had been interviewed, said that it would. Uh
and so, and then you have a whole first trial
where a lot of that evidence was presented and it
was a different result. So you kind of already know
that it would be a different result if it had
been presented, and so you know that creates a havio situation.
(26:20):
So what happens is a very experienced judge Downtown evaluates
it and has hearings and makes decisions. And I guess
my understanding is you can make any kind of decision
he wants in terms of like to just reversal to
a lesser sentence.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
And it's let's say they re sentenced you and said
to you and your brother that it was vance water,
then you would have already served your time for that charge.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Correct, Well, we have served so much time. I mean
people who have been here for first degree premeditated murder
with no mitigative circumstances have gone and parolled in the
entire time Eric and I have been here. They've served
their entire time for murder and gone home. That's how
my time, Erica and I have done. We want people
go home every day. So we've done like three times
(27:13):
the amount that you would do on manslaughter. So I
don't know how much more time we would do. It's
kind of all new for us. Like you said, this
is just found in March, and Roy came forward this year,
so I don't know. More hopeful, We're very hopeful. And
asked a ninety one year old aunt, who's that my
(27:33):
mother's sister, and she was she desperately wants to see
if something happened before something happens to her, And so
we're just all very hopeful and anxious.
Speaker 6 (27:43):
Nearly all of your family, your extended family, your father's
and your mother's siblings and whatnot. Nearly all, not all
there's one right hold out or something, but nearly all
are totally forgiven you and your brother and are on
your side, and we're witness to the life you had
led when they were alive, right we have.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
You know, I've been fortunate that because there's been so
much coverage of the trial and the evidence in the trial,
my huge extended family can see for themselves what happened.
Right right, And so they don't have to come to
prison and hear it directly from me. They can evaluate
it themselves. They can watch Court TV. A lot of
them have. The entire trial is on Court TV's websites
(28:28):
that was recorded the first trial. You can just watch
my whole testimony itself. And so they have they have
to sort of come to the conclusion that they should
have been a manslaughter case and what happened wasn't. We're fair,
So they support us tremendously. They support some sort of
(28:49):
resentencing in this case. And you know, it's it's amazing
and very rare, very rare.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Also it's very rare is that you had no incidents
of violence before that evening in eighty nine and you
have had none, sense?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Yes? Yeah, My brother and I just that's another reason
my family just couldn't believe that we were even possibly
involved in this at first, because it's just what you.
Speaker 7 (29:22):
Had sixty seconds remaining.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
There's no violence in our history, there's no violence in
the thirty years in prison sense, and this is really
just a horrific circumstance that you know, I realize now
like anybody's capable of things that you want to shock
you if it's the circumstances is horrifying enough, right, and
(29:46):
you're young, you know, especially if you're young and you're
not really you don't have the life experience to deal
with it.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
Yes, well, when we come back, we're going to take
a little break here, come right back, and I want
to talk Lyele about that you have done since you
have been in prison, because I was very blown away
by your accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
That it's okay more after this.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
M M.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
With call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Okay, all right?
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Uh yeah, So since we've gotten to know each other,
you know, I've been very curious into the way you
have chosen to spend your life in prison and U, Lyell,
it's it's rather pessive.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Well, we've had a lot of time to work on it.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You certainly have.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
You certainly have.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
Right right now, you're in the middle of a project
that you came up with, the beautification and Restoration project.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Is that the name, right? So I just what I
felt is that as corrections moved to figure out how
to deal with this terrible recidivism problem they're having with guys.
Coming right back, to prison after the trol which was
also obviously causing more victims in the public. They have
(31:35):
to think about how to do real bilitation differently, and
so they started to do a lot of real uiltated
classes and evidence based programs to get people to uh
sort reduce their criminality. But they were they were struggling
to be successful, and I felt, my only experience was
(31:56):
that one of the reasons is because the living environment
was sending an opposite message. It wasn't a rehabilitated message.
It was kind of a message that it was dehumanizing.
It was very oppressive. It was kind of like, we
don't trust you to be a citizen out there. And
people tend to, you know, those that tends to be
self fulfilling, they will they will kind of people will
(32:19):
behave the way you expect them to sometimes. And so
I looked at some research on what they were doing
in Europe and in Norway, would change in the way
yards in prison yards look and the way you treat
each other in prison and building more of a centi
of community. And I felt like that could be done
in a California prison. So I asked permission to do
(32:43):
that here in kind of a sweeping project where we
would be all done through public donations, so wouldn't use
taxpayer money, and we would redesign the yard by putting
artificial grass and meeting spaces and water and natural elements
and kind of de emphasize the prison institutional aspects of
(33:03):
the yard facility and create authentic community that you could
then start really working on your rehabilitation and your change
in your own identity as somebody who was going to
be a productive citizen, that that wasn't something that you
should wait to release them into society, that you could
do it here at first show that that person could
(33:24):
do that and then release them. And so that's what
I've been working on for you know, half a decade,
and I think this will be a very important year
and installing a lot of this. We have the full
support of the up Admitted Strauation, and we're working with
local business and prominent members of the community to fund it,
including Guide Dogs of America who have a service dog
(33:46):
program here they're really helping, and other organizations. So it's
very exciting. I spend you know, a huge amount of
time on it. It's very helpful healing for me. It's
all done well through volunteerism, you know, service to others
is really a huge part of the rehabilitative process. And
now for my brother and I. My brother is one
(34:07):
of the better painters in the California system. So one
part of the project is that we're painting the sweeping
landscape murals all along the inside of the prison yard.
It's going to be the longest one it's completed. It
will be the longest continuous mural in a US prison.
It's about thirty three thousand square feet, all of it
(34:27):
through donated paint and all of it then by inmate artists.
It's pretty spectacular. I'm sure that all the pictures and
videos of it will all be available online at some point.
Some of it's already out there. Actually, if you googled
down event mural murals and an Inndoza should come up probably,
But I just said, you know, it's a big project,
but we're hoping it can be replicated at other prisons.
(34:50):
People are coming from all around to kind of see
the progress. You came in and that was a beautiful,
beautiful day.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
Yeah, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous mural. Uh, you know, it's
every way you stand in the yard. Where you turn
you you see beauty instead of just greatness.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You know, it's it's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's got great artists, and but it's
it's not to sort of make prison, you know, a
nicer place to do prison time. It has a direct
effect on recidivism and victimization out there. Like if you
(35:34):
treat a human like they're a people in the backyard
and you know, in an oppressive environment, you really can't
expect them to be released into the public and the
and understand how to be a good neighbor, right, and
they have to you know, you have to learn that here.
You have to treat people humanely and get them to
(35:55):
understand how to function in a community environment here where
you care for your neighbors here, and then that will
translate out there, you know. And so there's there's a
growing understanding of that now in corrections and legislature.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You know. I'm here on the ground obviously at prisoner also,
and so I just felt like, you know what, we
can do it from the ground up. I can organize this.
Let's try to do this year on at Donovan in
San Diego, and I appreciate the support of the administration
and we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty amazing that you were were
twenty one at the time and that you have accomplished
so much while you were there.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
You entered college right well, and in prison, one of
the first.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Year to do that. That was interesting. In in the
two thousands, I was the I was in a prison
of north and it was the only one out of
three thousand midst that was taking a college course.
Speaker 10 (36:57):
It was crazy, like I would literally sit by myself
in the classroom, the only one there. And I was
just ingrained in me to continue my education because I
had my family had a great deal of education prior.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
To prison, so I was continuing that. I just thought
it was important for my own personal growth. You know,
I was very immature when all this happened. Contributed factor.
I felt I just wanted to continue my education. But
now you fast forward to twenty twenty three and most
of the inmates are in college classes and in school
(37:31):
almost everyone, and it's a really it's a big change.
I think it's a really healthy change. And one of
the I'm actually finishing my bachelors at UC Irvine to
get a degree in sociology and to have face to
face professors that come in to get your actual bachelors
from you see Ravine. It's the first time they're doing it, so.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
That I, well, that's fantastic, that's wonderful. Didn't you also
start a group for Life without Prisoners?
Speaker 4 (38:01):
I started two groups. One was to help prisoners who
have sex abuse in their childhood's history, bringing doctors into
work with them, getting them to write out their stories
and become comfortable with that because not coming to groups
is what happened to you as a child, can cause
you to victimize others, and you know it's a cycle
(38:25):
of abuse. So it's trying to help break that. So
I formed a group that works with that subject. And
then I formed a group of guys that are in
similar situations my brother and I where we have life
without the possibility of proll but we're all what's considered
youth offenders, meaning me that crime occurred before age twenty five.
My brother and I were on the low end of
that with twenty one and eighteen, and so we kind
(38:47):
of get together as a group and try to keep
each other out of trouble and help mentor other inmates
and use our time, our experience in prison to help
others who are going to be getting out. And so
you know that's been very rewarding. Yeah, how.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
How do you keep your spirits high? I know you
keep yourself very busy, you are a very busy person
even though you're in prison. But how do you keep
emotionally from not.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Looking at the horror?
Speaker 4 (39:23):
You know? Right? And and that's a good question because
suicide rates in prison are not good. Mental health issues
in prison, you know, depression and anxiety and disorders and
other things are high. But my brother and I like,
for me, it's family connection. I stay very close to
my family, my extended family. I've been married also in
(39:45):
twenty years and to my wife Rebecca. So just family
connection is one way, and the other is just realizing
that the suffering that Erica and the experience in prison
is just unavoidable. Right, There's nothing we can really do
about that, but we can find fulfillment in sort of
(40:06):
a shared experience with others and finding productive ways to
use that experience, especially myself with an abuse history. There's
so many guys in here with abuse history is and
I have strong connection to the abuse community outside the prison,
So I have a large Facebook page in my public
figure page and my name and my family runs have
(40:29):
you know, I respond to mail, so I'm very connected
in that way. So all of those things together sort
of create a support for me. Yeah. Right, And you know,
I'm hoping also that if you know, if Eric and
I are released, that I've already talked to the administration
about continuing my work within the prisons, being able to
(40:52):
come back and continue to work with people here. Guys
here obvious I got this project reabilitated project here to
read this on yards. I would love to do that.
Speaker 6 (41:04):
Isn't it true that the recidivism rates in Norway are
like four percent, you know, and the recidivism r from.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Where you were seventy plus per they were seventy plus percent.
Speaker 7 (41:16):
Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and
recruited through.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
These new methods of change in the way our prison
yard looks and how you interact with the mats and
creating a sense of community, and they were able to
plummet it down to the twenties, which is pretty it's
really unheard of rashidivism met low, and in California it's
up in the fifty. It's very high. Majority of people
(41:41):
come up but come back. So that has to be changed.
It's too expensive. It's a public welfare, correct, right, So
I think we'll change it, you know, I think we'll
change it.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
How have you found.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Having the support of.
Speaker 6 (41:57):
Your wife through this journey? I mean that must have been,
you know, a life saver in many ways.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
It is.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
I mean, yeah. One of the things you learned though,
is that like when you're here, like your family suffers
with you. Yes, they suffer from from that absence. And
if I'm worrying about you, and it's no differently with
my wife, uh, as well as my expended family. So
they've been really brave and strong and supportive. She's been
(42:28):
tremendous from my hometown, New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
And she's a litigator. You know, she's a lawyer, is yeah?
Not in not in cases and business cases, right or something?
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Do not let your wife handle your appeal? No, No,
that's not a good idea, right. It sounds cheap, but
I probably won't work out to it, right, Oh yeah, no,
But she's she's tremendous and put herself through law school
oppressive woman. Now with this, you would have to have
you have to sort of keep love in your life.
(43:03):
You have to stay because you know, you're surrounded by
heart conditions here. Yeah, uh, a suppressive environment. So I
just try to stay, stay connected to to uh you
know something softer.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, keep listening, there's more to come.
Speaker 9 (43:25):
M How did it come to be that you and
(43:46):
your brother Eric are now in the same prison.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
How did that come to be?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Well, we were. We were unfortunately separated when we first
came to prison. I think from all of the the
nineties and the conviction and the corrections kind of just
mirrors the public sentiment, and at the time in the
conviction in the nineties, there sent their assumption was be
very tenative with Lyle and Eric and separate them, and
(44:11):
so they did. I was very unfortunate. My family was
kind of horrified by it, and we stayed separated for
two decades. I worked very hard to try to get
back to my brother, couldn't do it. And then I
think as the culture changed and there was a lot
number of us, you had sixty seconds remaining sorry called.
Speaker 6 (44:33):
Back sure, okay, So we were in the middle of
how you got to be reunited with your brother after
two decades.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Right, right, So they the corrections does kind of mirror
the culture, and I think the shift in the late
two thousand and where there was a number, there was
a year or two where there's quite a few documentaries
just like there is just now again on the case.
(45:09):
And Nick Wolfe produces a lot of order and he
did a prime time series that people can watch if
they want. It's very good. It was on NBC about
the case, and I think that the public learned a
lot about the case again at that time and felt
very strongly that maybe there wasn't a just result. And
then the last scenes in that show showed Eric and
(45:32):
I being separated after the conviction, and I think that,
you know, there was a huge outpouring of concern about
and the kind of outrage about us being separated that
they went into corrections just apparently just overwhelming amount of
email and other stuff, and they just the corrections chiefs
just decided that, you know what, that was probably the
(45:54):
wrong thing to separate them. At least now it's no
longer a good idea and not not right. They asked
me about it, We discussed it, and you know, this whole.
You know, I'm here in large part because I love
my brother and you know, want to rescue him. And
(46:15):
do you know, we've just had that bond. I don't
know if it's it's traumatic bonding from going to a
childhood together like that, but we still feel it incredibly strongly,
and so it was a little it was unfortunate. Circums stated.
This is my wife, Rebecca lived right across the street
from me up in Northern California. When I had I
(46:36):
was in charge of the make government in Northern California,
representing the inmense with the administration, so I just kind
of was very established. So to leave, even ask to
leave and travel all the way across the state to
San Diego and start over with my brother was really
a big, a big deal, quite a big ill lot
to sacrifice there, and I just but it's just like,
(46:57):
I don't know, I never felt complete separated from Eric.
I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't find any
peace in it. And I told my wife for back a, look,
I need to be with my brother. I just can't
do the rest of my life. Because we didn't know
that we would have this opportunity to get out that
we have now. So she she's gracious, she shows grace,
(47:21):
she understood and with the climate changing, they allowed me
to go and I was reunited with Eric, and that
was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah what what did that moment?
Speaker 5 (47:32):
I mean, you hadn't laid eyes on, had you.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
I hadn't know. We had correspondence approval so I could write.
But that was it. So he looked in good condition,
but older as he was correct and I was. But
I recognized them, Rosie, I recognize him. Of course it's
a good thing. Yeah, I would really that if I studied, Yeah,
(47:55):
with the wrong brother. Yeah, I'm over here low oh
on a cli So yeah, he.
Speaker 6 (48:02):
I got to see both Lyle and Eric when I
went to visit the prison to UH to see about
this beautification and rehabilitation project.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
It's it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 6 (48:13):
I also went there to see about the guide dogs,
which Dakota is currently applied.
Speaker 9 (48:20):
To get one, and I saw all the men who
train the dogs, one of them that.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
That Dakota will be getting. It was it was pretty
overwhelming and fascinating.
Speaker 6 (48:30):
But I saw you. I had seen a couple of
images of you online and then when I saw your brother,
I was like, he looks just the same, you know,
to me, and he looked just the same.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Yeah, we're kind of well preserved, right, because it's like
a big sargine can. Yeah, And so that's you know,
we're relatively well preserved. But still it's a lot of
passes of time. Oh my god. And it was very
emotional to see Eric and Hygeburston that's years of course,
have a moment a moment together and it was just
(49:04):
quite extraordinary. So there was work for all that work
to try to get here, and you live right next
to each other, and for work on a lot of
the same projects, work on something separately, and it's probably
some piece.
Speaker 6 (49:21):
You mentioned just before that you never thought there would
be a bit of a chance of you getting out,
and now with this habeas and this new evidence, there
there truly is.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And have you and your brother discussed what that might
be like for you to get out?
Speaker 4 (49:41):
You know, right, I haven't done.
Speaker 6 (49:42):
It, you know, I know.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
I know you say you know you should, you should
will it into existence, you know what I mean, And
you talk about that, and I mean I get that,
but it's much it's a lot harder to do your
time in prison when you're focused on being out of prison, right,
So I really has too much responsibility to hear with
all this, and just I really want to do a
good job with it, and so I try not to
(50:05):
get distracted. I try not to do that too much.
And then of course you know, you never know if
you live in that world that is as fair as
you hope, and so I try to stay focused here.
But it is hard not to be hopeful. But my
brother and I have not purposely I think not really
disgusted me and must.
Speaker 6 (50:25):
Be hard to hope in there, just even hard to
like you as you say, you got to focus on
this minute, stay present.
Speaker 7 (50:33):
Who's caol Andre? A telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Yes, but it would be amazing to have another chapter
of life. And like I said, I have talked to
Corrections to try to see if I could continue to
do the work I'm doing here, because that's what I've
been doing for twenty years to thirty years, SOLF. I'd
like to use that experience and keep helping here. And
the answer I've gotten is yes, absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 6 (50:58):
There are some people life who have spent time in
prison and when they're out or imagine getting out.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
They don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Ever.
Speaker 6 (51:06):
Again, they don't want to, you know, go fix the
library and the prison. They don't want They just want
nothing to do with it. I think it's very commendable
that you care about this population that you are a
part of. For thirty four years of your adult life.
You had abused as a childhood. Yes you were rich,
Yes there was a privilege that came with it, but
(51:30):
the horrors of incest can never be measured.
Speaker 5 (51:32):
And you know, you went from that.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
Kind of prison to this kind of prison, and freedom
as an adults has never been in your grasp.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
Really, Yeah, and exactly, and that was all beautifully said.
It's and prison is about the men that are here.
There are a lot of you know, I mean, they've
done some terrible things and they are doing you know,
health has pretty long, harsh sentences, and so a lot
(52:03):
of them are just not the same people they were
in their early twenties. And I think so many guys
here were like seventeen, eighteen, nineteen twenty, you know, and
now they're in their fifties and they should be. Most
of them will have a chance to get out, and
so what kind of person do you want living next
to you out there? You know? So I feel like
I don't think it's a good idea for me to
turn my back on the men here in corrections here
(52:27):
just because I've been released. That doesn't sound right. It
doesn't feel right. And so I would like to continue
to use that experience to work work on in recidivism
rates and rehabilitation in prison. I think I can do it,
and I'm just happy that there's support for that.
Speaker 5 (52:47):
Yeah, I really thank you. There's tremendous support for you
out here, Lyle.
Speaker 6 (52:52):
And you know, I have shared our friendship with a
lot of my friends, and all but one was, you know,
very interested in hearing. Who is the man that I
have come to know is and uh And I am
happy to say that you know, you have become a
true real friend and uh And I always believed what
(53:14):
you said. I saw your brother and you testify, and
I knew that there was no actor in the world
who could act that unless they had lived it.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
And and you're not even an actor.
Speaker 5 (53:25):
So but I could see you as a speaker.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
I could see you writing a book about your experience.
I can see you.
Speaker 6 (53:31):
Continuing to help in the in the Corrections World and uh,
you know you have not wasted a moment of your
life in there, uh, Lyle, and it's it's quite impressive.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
Well, you have your time on earth that you have,
and I just feel like I just didn't want to hide,
uh in the shadows of of you know what, all
the publicity, and so I know that there are guys
would do that, and I just felt like, you know what,
allowed to do something with your life that's you know, productive,
be a part of this community, you know, help and uh,
(54:07):
it's been great fulfillment. So I want to continue that. Well,
I think you do that. I think it's very obvious.
And so that's one of the reasons that I wanted
to do the podcast with you and be friend you.
And I don't know if you mentioned it on the podcast,
but you know I wrote you way back in the
early nineties.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right when my show was gone, right.
Speaker 4 (54:33):
And I had a feeling that you had a similar
history that I had in some ways. I just could
feel it for some reason. Uh, and survivors are connected
like that.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yes, I completely agree with you. I completely annoy and
you're hypervigilance so to.
Speaker 7 (54:48):
Call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (54:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (54:52):
The hypervigilance that you develop in a house with that
going on, you know, continues after you're out of the house,
but it's still a.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Mind game, you know.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Hypervigilant has everyone's mood. Who's where, what's happening?
Speaker 4 (55:05):
You know.
Speaker 6 (55:06):
It's it's a very corrosive, corrupting and devastating, uh situation
in so many homes in the country, and it's a
problem that we ignore largely, and we ignore it more
when it happens to boys than it does happen to boys.
Speaker 4 (55:25):
You know. Tragically, it's a very American story.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Now, yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 6 (55:34):
Vast majority of children who are invested do not kill
their parents, but about three hundred kids a year in
this century kill their parents, you know, and even more
parents kill their children.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
And it's something we can't turn a blind eye top.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
You know. Well, it's just it's just countless shattered lives,
you know, and how that life shatters. It could be homicide,
but it could also be suicide. It could be a
life of drug addiction, it could be a life of
being in battering relationships, It could be a life of
battering others because you're acting out from it. So the
(56:12):
way the lives get shattered very and of course I know,
you know, we've re experienced the fact that an abuse
that can actually it ends up in a homicide and
they've killed the perpetrator, you know, if they've killed their
views or whether it be a battered woman or a child,
they do. You know, the justice system is sometimes very
(56:33):
unforgiving what in the mitigation of it. It's something that
they've just sort of coming to terms what now, much
better than in the nineties. But you know, I think
it's a huge problem in the country, and so I
have experienced it with just an outpouring of people who
(56:55):
you know, it was one of the reasons I testified.
One of the reasons was to just give voice what
happened to me because so many people were writing me
saying they were afraid to talk, right, you know, and
I knew they would be listening. You know. I kept
a letter from a sex abuse actually a great victim
in my pocket while I testified the whole time, and
(57:15):
it just to give me strength. And there's such a
deep connection in the country with that community. But there's
still suffer right and there needs to be a continued
appreciation for what victims that go through. Yes, and better
better outreach to help them, right, because I really helped
them really, you know. I mean there's so much going
(57:37):
on in families that you're all the same where people
are not. You know, you have to help. When you
see something, you have to stop it early. Yeah, I
shouldn't end up like Eric and I without a.
Speaker 6 (57:48):
Doubt, without a doubt. Well, listen, I am fully one
hundred supportive of you, and I'm waiting to hear what.
Speaker 7 (57:57):
Happens with the fifty seconds remaining.
Speaker 3 (58:01):
I want to thank you Lyle for doing this today.
You'll come back and do it again.
Speaker 6 (58:06):
I would love to have to have you talk about
it as the caste progress is because I'm very interested
in looking forward to yours and your brother's freedom for
the first time really in.
Speaker 3 (58:17):
Your whole life.
Speaker 4 (58:18):
Thank you, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
All right, you take care of yourself.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
Okay, Okay, Well, thank you so much. I will talk
to you soon. Bye bye. Well.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
I hope this helped reframe a series of events that
are in the cultural zeitgeist that need to be corrected,
re examined, fixed. I'm really interested in what you think.
Could you Please send a voice memo about this episode,
and maybe we'll do an entire episode with your thoughts
and observations, and I will answer whatever questions you might
(59:00):
have about Lyle or his brother or the case. So
send him in if you're so moved, send in your
voice memos the addresses Onward Rosie at gmail dot com.
Next week, join me for the outrageously Funny the very
Tall Jewish hysterical comedian, actor, podcaster, and writer. My buddy
(59:24):
and friend for many, many many years, Judy Gold
Well, hey everybody, it is me Rosie O'Donnell. How are
you on this Tuesday? Are you doing well?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Listen? I got to tell you what happened.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I wake up on this school morning and I hear
the freaking lawnmower guy going and it's seven point fifteen,
and I don't know what to do. I'm thinking I
should go out there and go across the street and
talk to them, or next to my where it must
be right next door, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So I get up, I.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Do my morning routine, I come downstairs and I see
it's my yard that has the guy with the weed
whacker and the blower. Now I live in a rented
house here, right, so I don't schedule the pool and
the lawn people. That's you know, taken care of by
the lord. But I was so mad. I was so
(01:03):
ready to go over and yell at one of my neighbors,
you know, and I was the bad neighbor.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So there you have it. That's what happened to me
this morning. Listen.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We have a very interesting show today, and I want
to give a trigger warning right up front. These are
issues that are discussed during my conversation. Rape, sexual child abuse,
emotional abuse and incest. And this discussion is not graphic
in any nature, but it's a truthful discussion of events
(01:37):
with those topics. So I want everyone to make sure
that they're ready to listen to this. It might be
hard for some people, and I'm acknowledging that. So here
we go. I'm going to be speaking with Lyle Menendez.
As you know, he and his brother were convicted of
(01:57):
the nineteen ninety six murder of their pa parents, Jose
and Mary Louise Kitty Menendez. Lyel Menendez is fifty five
years old. In March, I watched a documentary that presented
new evidence in their case, and the result of that
evidence now leaves them in a position where they may
(02:19):
be re sentenced. And that's the hope with new evidence
and a habeas And Lyle is very smart and he
understands all of this. And he and I have a conversation.
You know, he is in prison, and we left in
all of the interruptions with the prison telephone system. I
(02:39):
thought it felt real and provided some kind of a
frame as to his life for the last thirty four
years in prison. Now sit back and listen to myself
and Lyel Menendez.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Hello, let me merge you.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Hello, Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Well today we.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
Are going to have a long discussion with somebody that
you've heard of and you've had an opinion about. Probably
I've come to know him in the last few months,
and so here he is Lyeon Menendez.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Hello, Lyle, how are you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Hi, Rosie? And we're doing pretty well, pretty well? Thank you.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
Work in all, Andrew, A telephone number will be monitored
and recorded for.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Having me big news in your case that had came
out sometime in March about a former member of Menudo,
and tell everybody your father's connection to Menudo.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
My father was a record executive in charge of RCA Records,
so had an huge number of artists and took an
interest in a Latin band, the boy band Menudo, and
befriended the producer and kind of owner of the group
(04:21):
in the early eighties, nineteen eighties, and.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
So just recently a guy that had you ever heard
of Roy?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I have not really heard of any of the band
members other than Ricky Martin, probably like everybody else right
in the United States. You know, it was kind of
a big band, but the kind of names kind of
came to go because I kept replacing the teenagers in
the group.
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Yeah, they as they got older, As they got older,
they kicked them out and got a new kid, right.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, so it was a creepy concept from the beginning,
I guess.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
Yeah, without it, without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, And it turned out to be somewhat purposeful as
things have come out, uh in documentaries and investigations in
Puerto Rico and overseas. But uh so I did not
know Roy and didn't know the fact that he had
(05:22):
been uh right by my father and was another victim
came out through a documentary investigation they were doing on
the band, separately from anything related to Eric and I.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And that documentary has now kind of paved the way
for possible freedom for you and your brother.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Well, the trial always, you know, a large part of
the tild revolved around what do you believe was the
reason for the family violence in the case, And so yeah,
there was no question there was a gradual elevens was
presented in the second trial, a lot of it was excluded.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
Yeah, I think I think that was something that really
surprised me. You know, the first trial, the one that
we watched on TV with Leslie Abrams and you and
your brother.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That trial was You were not found guilty in that trial, right, It.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Was like nine to three from manslaughter and that was
two juris. Eric was six to six and I think
that was nine to three, so it was not very
very close, right.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
So in the interim after that, they decided to try
you again, right, But it's how many years?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Six years?
Speaker 4 (06:42):
I know, I think it was like two and a
half years in between. It seemed like forever because it
was enough time for the La riots, the Rodney King
beating case to be acquitted of O. J. Simpson got acquitted.
His whole trial occurred in between our two trials, and
you know a number of TV movies were released, so
(07:03):
we really came into the second trial in a very
different position in terms of the public and the DA.
Speaker 6 (07:09):
And the same judge that presided over your first trial
was the presiding over this trial, and they decided together
that they would not allow any evidence of the sexual
abuse to be used in the second trial.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
It was extremely limited. So it pretty it put Eric
in a position to just sort of had to take
the stand and talk about it all without any real
supporting witnesses and family members that knew about it. So
of course, that made it much harder for the jury
to know what to believe. And then you had the
prosecutor that they changed the prosecutor to somebody who was
(07:49):
more aggressively willing to say that things were just not true,
even though I think he knew that probably wasn't the
case because he had excluded a lot of the evidence
that showed that certain things which are And so that
Joe changed some of the dury instructions. They asked that
the cameras returned off so the public couldn't watch. And
(08:09):
it just had that feeling of being sort of, you know,
a maneuvered.
Speaker 8 (08:17):
To get a certain result, and then that did happen, right,
And the result changed your life in the world forever,
because you and your brother both got life without the
possibility of paroles.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Right, you know, we went from really thinking that there
was an argument about manslaughter to suddenly having the kind
of sentence that like a serial killer has.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
How old were you on that night in nineteen eighty nine?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I was twenty when my brother was eighteen.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Right, And the of you started in your house when
you were quite young. But for you, you had arrested
when you turned eight, correct.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I was, and I was sexual with you with my
father between like six and eight, and I complained to
a family member. She complained to my mother about it,
and so it stopped. It's hard to it. Told me
to know if it stopped immediately afterwards, but it seemed
like it did. And uh, and then it just I
(09:30):
and then clearly my father moved on to my brother, and.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Which was not known by you, not known by you.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I had some sense that something might have been going
on in my mid teens, but I confronted my father
and brother, and neither one said that it was true. Uh.
And I just sort of went into denial about it
and did not really hear about it again until a
(10:00):
week a little bit less than a week before August
twenty when the shootings occurred.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Yeah, the week before that occurred, you were in Princeton
with your mother, setting up your off campus apartment for your.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Starting school back at Princeton.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Correct. Yeah, I was supposed to start my sophomore year
in college at Princeton. I played for the tennis team,
and it was kind of my hometown too. Princeton's where
I went to high school, and some of the mother
wanted we saided having to move off campus closer to
(10:38):
my aunt. So they brought a condominium out there and
then she came out to help me furnish it, and
we had just finished all that. So I was just
in a very good place myself. Obviously, I came from
you very traumatic childhood, but you know, you kind of
sometimes you can survive your childhood and you go on
and you can function, you knows a good adult. I
(11:01):
felt like I was on my way. I was so fine,
and then I just kind.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Of hit this wall with Eric more after this.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
So you came home and Eric was crying one day
and your mom was.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
What state was your mom?
Speaker 6 (11:39):
And at that point, this was a week after you
two set up your apartment in Princeton.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yeah, I mean, I really want to go through a
whole week if we can avoid it.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
No, No, I was just saying I was trying to
just tell the people the things that I maybe didn't know,
and since being in contact with you and your wife
that I have found out that I thought was interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I don't want to make you go through that, and
that's that I'm just.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
Saying that that night something erupted and the truth of
your family's secret was revealed.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I mean, in a shorter sense, my brother was hoping
to go to was hoping that he would get out
of this situation he was in with his father, where
he was in a you could call it a you know,
he was in a sexual relationship with his father. Obviously
we know that that would be considered like rape and
(12:37):
abuse had been going on for a decade or more.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
And.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
He thought he was going to be able to live
off on campus at e c LA where he was
going to be starting school that September, and when he
was informed by his father that that wouldn't be happening,
he was going to have to stay at home. That
my brother knew that meant the abuse was going to continue.
There was really no way out, and hegan to feel suicidal.
And then he knew that I was about to leave
back to school in New Jersey on the other side
(13:05):
of the country, and so before I could leave, he
felt that he did sit to cry for help and
tell me what had been going on, and that kind
of cascaded into this last couple of days before what
happened of me confronting my father and trying to rescue
my brother from that situation, and that going horribly bad
(13:26):
and threats back, you know, threats back and forth and
turns to be threatening to expose my father and then
my mother, my mother entering it, you know, letting I
was realizing my mother knew in arguments with her, and
our feeling, our level of fear and just just you know,
just overwhelming, really emotion and just led to you know,
(13:51):
just horrific life changing events in.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
A home where there's incests and there's secrets and there's abuse.
People who haven't lived in that kind of situation I
don't think fully understand how captive the child is to
their parent who is controlling them and grooming them and
abusing them.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
In ways that they don't even yet understand.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Especially then, right, I mean, it just happened to me
in the seventies, that happened to Eric in the eighties,
and that you know where this is nineteen eighty nine
and it just wasn't you know, I'm ins interesting because
like the send generation today just assumes that, oh, well,
if you're having trouble at home, you talk to all
(14:41):
your friends, you post about it on social media, people
help you. And there was none of that back then.
You were very isolated. There was no Internet there was
no contacting friends, There was no school counselor asking what's
going on at home? How are you doing? Nobody knew
that there was a problem with sex abusive boys, Nobody
new to ask those questions. There was there was just
(15:04):
no cultural mechanism to believe or understand. And so to
that weekend, it's like, you know, I mean, I felt,
we felt. You know, it's hard to say, you know,
we look back and I feel like I can't believe,
Like it's easy to have for me to look back
and say, wow, I should have just found some way
(15:25):
out of that weekend without violence. But in the moment,
you just feel trapped and it's just overwhelmed and so
you know, and it just shatters everyone's lives. Right. Yeah,
you physically you survive it, but emotionally you don't really
survive it.
Speaker 6 (15:45):
No, And it comes back throughout you know, extent seconds remaining.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Sure yep O that.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Okay, thank you, sorry?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Where we're sorry that you have every fifteen minutes that
cut you off and you have to call that. I
think they don't think that if anyone in prison is
interesting enough to talk you for.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
That's pretty fun.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Not the case.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Not the case.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, so listen. So I think where we were was
talking about like the culture at.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
The time too, that you know, people were not willing
to believe that fathers raped their sons. I think as
a culture, and there's enough proof and there's enough that
fathers raped their daughters, but when you put boys into.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
The equation and.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
People get all tabooed out, they don't they can't imagine.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
It's too much for them to even consider.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
And I think that if Eric was Erica and you
had found out that your father had.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Been raping her for all those years.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
And you protected her, and this is the bad choice
that you.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Wish you didn't but did make at the time, you know,
people would have you as the role of a hero.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
In society, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
I think it would have at least been something that
people understood better and could evaluate what justice is in
that situation.
Speaker 9 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
And I just Eric and I could not get to
that point. Was in the in the early nineties a trial.
Half of their jury they were men, and all of
them afterwards, when they were talking about the jury deliberations
were making comments like, well, you know, he must be gay.
Speaker 7 (17:43):
He could let's call and a telephone number will be
monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It couldn't be that the father was forcing him to
have sex. And there's a total lack of understanding of
what interest is and related to boys, right, And I
don't even think it was accepted in the eighties and
early nize that that fathers or child predators like that.
(18:09):
I think it was. It was another decade or two before,
certainly another decade before after our trial, before people understood
that child molesters or could be your teacher, could be
your gym coach, could be an executive, a father, you know,
predators could be people like Bill Cosby or your you know,
(18:32):
household names, or you're just your neighbor. You know. There
was a sense that child molesters were kind of like
creeps and trench coach hanging around schools and not regular people.
And now, of course we know that's completely untrue.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
Completely, there's no.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Type you can be. I mean, back then we were
dealing with lots of myths. Some of the jurists didn't
think that a married man could be somebody that could
also sexually abuse a boy. Of course, we know that's
not true now. A lot of the child molesters that
sexually these boys are married. Right, People didn't believe that
(19:10):
a woman would choose her her predator husband over her children.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Now that happens as well. That happens as well, Right.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
A lot of times what the wife students, the husband's
at the point of bringing children to him. So we
just you know, as well as the danger that children
are and from parents, you know, I don't you know.
So there was just a lot of myths that we
were dealing with in the nineties that led to I
think it really bad result the trial, and yeah, I
don't know, I think it would be very different today.
(19:42):
I remember Dick Wolfe saying at a event that he
was at when he you know, he produced that timetime
series on our case, but I thought it was very
well done.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yes, what was when we folcome right?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
He thought we played Leslie Ayson right, just did a
brilliant job. And uh he said that he felt like
if culturally at the trial had taken place today, it
would have been a more clear manslaughter result. We would
have still done a lot of prison time, but it
would not be you know, in this situation that you
(20:17):
know has to be trying to superget, you know, change it.
You know, So I think, you know, I agree with that.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
You know, you know, people don't realize when I tell
them that you've been communicating.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
People say to me, oh god, what's he been in there,
like twenty years? I'm like thirty four.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Right, thirty.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
People don't realize because you know, it was a cultural
moment for the country and everyone had their opinion on,
you know, whether or not you were in it for
the money, although there really was no evidence or proof
for anything of that besides the spending free that you
(21:01):
traumatize sexually abused incested children responded with a trauma response
after the freedom that that you felt, and as well
as the horror.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Correct, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, I think that view evidence is one is why
it's for me personally. I think my brother too. We've
talked about it. It's so important to be believed, you know.
I don't know what the legal result is. Those things
are kind of out of our hands. We're obviously extremely hopeful.
(21:41):
Our families are very hopeful because you know, we have
our Our whole family supports us almost uniformly, which is
really just been a blessing and amazing and forgiveness, their understanding.
But I you know, I just being believed is so important,
you know, I communicate with I've communicated with just tens
(22:02):
of thousands of specs abuse victims over the years, and
the need to be recognized and believed for what happened
to you is really powerful for healing. And so to
go through a trial where you know, there's a whole
prosecutor's office trying to tell the public, Oh, this is
not true, don't believe it is such a horrifying thing
(22:25):
in itself. Yeah, it's very debilitating. So is something I've
struggled with over the last few decades, and so too,
you know. And then suddenly another victim comes forward, and
now it's like, yeah, it's very hard now for someone
to say they don't believe. That's pretty I mean, I
don't know how you say it now.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
Yeah, I agree, And that not only is the new
evidence of another victim of your father, but your brother's
letter was found by your mother's sister.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Correct, my father's sister, her son and the eric used
to correspond with him in the early eighties and late eighties.
I guess they were both teenagers, and she found a
letter for their growth and they had been in storage
for twenty five years. That wasn't about directly all about
(23:18):
the sex abuse, but referenced it pretty graphically, and so amazingly,
she did not actually give it to anybody, my attorneys
or anything. She gave it to Barbara Walters for a
show because she just didn't think there were even any
appeals going on, and you know, just so much time
(23:39):
had passed by, she just didn't think about it. But
eventually we saw it on that show. People investigated and
realized that there was a letter that no one had found,
had not been presented at trial, had been in storage
for twenty five years because her son had died in
two thousand and three, so she just packed everything up.
And so it's very powerful evidence because it was written
prior to eight months higher to my parents' death, so
(24:02):
it was something you know before, well the reason before,
and kind of proving what happened. So those two new
pieces of evidence they pretty much dispel the notion of
what happened in terms of the least sex abuse right right.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
And and there's a whole generation of people now on
the internet who are college kids who were taught your
case in school, and they're all like, how the hell
did these kids get life without the possibility of parole. Well,
these two new pieces of evidence have given you the
(24:38):
first real shot that possibly.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Not spending the rest of your life in jail with
this habeas. Tell everyone what a habeas is.
Speaker 8 (24:48):
I'm not a legal expert, but I know, but I
know you know what no more than me, what exactly?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Do not operate on yourself, so I don't try like
some of the guys in here in prison that are
legal peoples. But essentially if new evidence, in the case
of new evidence, you would file a habeous like for
you know, uh, you've seen a lot lot because of
the advances in DNA evidence, a lot of people that
(25:17):
were here for rape they've now been able to test
the sperm and realize, oh, that wasn't the rapist. So
what do you do in that situation where twenty five
years later you realize, oh that b I wasn't the rapist.
You file a habeas. You introduced the new evidence, and
an experienced habeast judge you know, evaluates the evidence and
(25:38):
makes a determination that this would have changed the verdict.
So it's the same in this case. You know the
fact that there's no powerful evidence, that there's at least
the underlying kind of foundational issues of sex abuse are true,
then would that have altered the juries verdict? I think
(25:59):
it's pretty obvious probably would. And the tourist, in fact,
after it had been interviewed, said that it would. Uh
and so, and then you have a whole first trial
where a lot of that evidence was presented and it
was a different result. So you kind of already know
that it would be a different result if it had
been presented, and so you know that creates a havio situation.
(26:20):
So what happens is a very experienced judge Downtown evaluates
it and has hearings and makes decisions. And I guess
my understanding is you can make any kind of decision
he wants in terms of like to just reversal to
a lesser sentence.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
And it's let's say they re sentenced you and said
to you and your brother that it was vance water,
then you would have already served your time for that charge.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Correct, Well, we have served so much time. I mean
people who have been here for first degree premeditated murder
with no mitigative circumstances have gone and parolled in the
entire time Eric and I have been here. They've served
their entire time for murder and gone home. That's how
my time, Erica and I have done. We want people
go home every day. So we've done like three times
(27:13):
the amount that you would do on manslaughter. So I
don't know how much more time we would do. It's
kind of all new for us. Like you said, this
is just found in March, and Roy came forward this year,
so I don't know. More hopeful, We're very hopeful. And
asked a ninety one year old aunt, who's that my
(27:33):
mother's sister, and she was she desperately wants to see
if something happened before something happens to her, And so
we're just all very hopeful and anxious.
Speaker 6 (27:43):
Nearly all of your family, your extended family, your father's
and your mother's siblings and whatnot. Nearly all, not all
there's one right hold out or something, but nearly all
are totally forgiven you and your brother and are on
your side, and we're witness to the life you had
led when they were alive, right we have.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
You know, I've been fortunate that because there's been so
much coverage of the trial and the evidence in the trial,
my huge extended family can see for themselves what happened.
Right right, And so they don't have to come to
prison and hear it directly from me. They can evaluate
it themselves. They can watch Court TV. A lot of
them have. The entire trial is on Court TV's websites
(28:28):
that was recorded the first trial. You can just watch
my whole testimony itself. And so they have they have
to sort of come to the conclusion that they should
have been a manslaughter case and what happened wasn't. We're fair,
So they support us tremendously. They support some sort of
(28:49):
resentencing in this case. And you know, it's it's amazing
and very rare, very rare.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Also it's very rare is that you had no incidents
of violence before that evening in eighty nine and you
have had none, sense?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Yes? Yeah, My brother and I just that's another reason
my family just couldn't believe that we were even possibly
involved in this at first, because it's just what you.
Speaker 7 (29:22):
Had sixty seconds remaining.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
There's no violence in our history, there's no violence in
the thirty years in prison sense, and this is really
just a horrific circumstance that you know, I realize now
like anybody's capable of things that you want to shock
you if it's the circumstances is horrifying enough, right, and
(29:46):
you're young, you know, especially if you're young and you're
not really you don't have the life experience to deal
with it.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
Yes, well, when we come back, we're going to take
a little break here, come right back, and I want
to talk Lyele about that you have done since you
have been in prison, because I was very blown away
by your accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
That it's okay more after this.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
M M.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
With call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Okay, all right?
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Uh yeah, So since we've gotten to know each other,
you know, I've been very curious into the way you
have chosen to spend your life in prison and U, Lyell,
it's it's rather pessive.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Well, we've had a lot of time to work on it.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You certainly have.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
You certainly have.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
Right right now, you're in the middle of a project
that you came up with, the beautification and Restoration project.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Is that the name, right? So I just what I
felt is that as corrections moved to figure out how
to deal with this terrible recidivism problem they're having with guys.
Coming right back, to prison after the trol which was
also obviously causing more victims in the public. They have
(31:35):
to think about how to do real bilitation differently, and
so they started to do a lot of real uiltated
classes and evidence based programs to get people to uh
sort reduce their criminality. But they were they were struggling
to be successful, and I felt, my only experience was
(31:56):
that one of the reasons is because the living environment
was sending an opposite message. It wasn't a rehabilitated message.
It was kind of a message that it was dehumanizing.
It was very oppressive. It was kind of like, we
don't trust you to be a citizen out there. And
people tend to, you know, those that tends to be
self fulfilling, they will they will kind of people will
(32:19):
behave the way you expect them to sometimes. And so
I looked at some research on what they were doing
in Europe and in Norway, would change in the way
yards in prison yards look and the way you treat
each other in prison and building more of a centi
of community. And I felt like that could be done
in a California prison. So I asked permission to do
(32:43):
that here in kind of a sweeping project where we
would be all done through public donations, so wouldn't use
taxpayer money, and we would redesign the yard by putting
artificial grass and meeting spaces and water and natural elements
and kind of de emphasize the prison institutional aspects of
(33:03):
the yard facility and create authentic community that you could
then start really working on your rehabilitation and your change
in your own identity as somebody who was going to
be a productive citizen, that that wasn't something that you
should wait to release them into society, that you could
do it here at first show that that person could
(33:24):
do that and then release them. And so that's what
I've been working on for you know, half a decade,
and I think this will be a very important year
and installing a lot of this. We have the full
support of the up Admitted Strauation, and we're working with
local business and prominent members of the community to fund it,
including Guide Dogs of America who have a service dog
(33:46):
program here they're really helping, and other organizations. So it's
very exciting. I spend you know, a huge amount of
time on it. It's very helpful healing for me. It's
all done well through volunteerism, you know, service to others
is really a huge part of the rehabilitative process. And
now for my brother and I. My brother is one
(34:07):
of the better painters in the California system. So one
part of the project is that we're painting the sweeping
landscape murals all along the inside of the prison yard.
It's going to be the longest one it's completed. It
will be the longest continuous mural in a US prison.
It's about thirty three thousand square feet, all of it
(34:27):
through donated paint and all of it then by inmate artists.
It's pretty spectacular. I'm sure that all the pictures and
videos of it will all be available online at some point.
Some of it's already out there. Actually, if you googled
down event mural murals and an Inndoza should come up probably,
But I just said, you know, it's a big project,
but we're hoping it can be replicated at other prisons.
(34:50):
People are coming from all around to kind of see
the progress. You came in and that was a beautiful,
beautiful day.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
Yeah, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous mural. Uh, you know, it's
every way you stand in the yard. Where you turn
you you see beauty instead of just greatness.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You know, it's it's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's got great artists, and but it's
it's not to sort of make prison, you know, a
nicer place to do prison time. It has a direct
effect on recidivism and victimization out there. Like if you
(35:34):
treat a human like they're a people in the backyard
and you know, in an oppressive environment, you really can't
expect them to be released into the public and the
and understand how to be a good neighbor, right, and
they have to you know, you have to learn that here.
You have to treat people humanely and get them to
(35:55):
understand how to function in a community environment here where
you care for your neighbors here, and then that will
translate out there, you know. And so there's there's a
growing understanding of that now in corrections and legislature.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You know. I'm here on the ground obviously at prisoner also,
and so I just felt like, you know what, we
can do it from the ground up. I can organize this.
Let's try to do this year on at Donovan in
San Diego, and I appreciate the support of the administration
and we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty amazing that you were were
twenty one at the time and that you have accomplished
so much while you were there.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
You entered college right well, and in prison, one of
the first.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Year to do that. That was interesting. In in the
two thousands, I was the I was in a prison
of north and it was the only one out of
three thousand midst that was taking a college course.
Speaker 10 (36:57):
It was crazy, like I would literally sit by myself
in the classroom, the only one there. And I was
just ingrained in me to continue my education because I
had my family had a great deal of education prior.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
To prison, so I was continuing that. I just thought
it was important for my own personal growth. You know,
I was very immature when all this happened. Contributed factor.
I felt I just wanted to continue my education. But
now you fast forward to twenty twenty three and most
of the inmates are in college classes and in school
(37:31):
almost everyone, and it's a really it's a big change.
I think it's a really healthy change. And one of
the I'm actually finishing my bachelors at UC Irvine to
get a degree in sociology and to have face to
face professors that come in to get your actual bachelors
from you see Ravine. It's the first time they're doing it, so.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
That I, well, that's fantastic, that's wonderful. Didn't you also
start a group for Life without Prisoners?
Speaker 4 (38:01):
I started two groups. One was to help prisoners who
have sex abuse in their childhood's history, bringing doctors into
work with them, getting them to write out their stories
and become comfortable with that because not coming to groups
is what happened to you as a child, can cause
you to victimize others, and you know it's a cycle
(38:25):
of abuse. So it's trying to help break that. So
I formed a group that works with that subject. And
then I formed a group of guys that are in
similar situations my brother and I where we have life
without the possibility of proll but we're all what's considered
youth offenders, meaning me that crime occurred before age twenty five.
My brother and I were on the low end of
that with twenty one and eighteen, and so we kind
(38:47):
of get together as a group and try to keep
each other out of trouble and help mentor other inmates
and use our time, our experience in prison to help
others who are going to be getting out. And so
you know that's been very rewarding. Yeah, how.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
How do you keep your spirits high? I know you
keep yourself very busy, you are a very busy person
even though you're in prison. But how do you keep
emotionally from not.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Looking at the horror?
Speaker 4 (39:23):
You know? Right? And and that's a good question because
suicide rates in prison are not good. Mental health issues
in prison, you know, depression and anxiety and disorders and
other things are high. But my brother and I like,
for me, it's family connection. I stay very close to
my family, my extended family. I've been married also in
(39:45):
twenty years and to my wife Rebecca. So just family
connection is one way, and the other is just realizing
that the suffering that Erica and the experience in prison
is just unavoidable. Right, There's nothing we can really do
about that, but we can find fulfillment in sort of
(40:06):
a shared experience with others and finding productive ways to
use that experience, especially myself with an abuse history. There's
so many guys in here with abuse history is and
I have strong connection to the abuse community outside the prison,
So I have a large Facebook page in my public
figure page and my name and my family runs have
(40:29):
you know, I respond to mail, so I'm very connected
in that way. So all of those things together sort
of create a support for me. Yeah. Right, And you know,
I'm hoping also that if you know, if Eric and
I are released, that I've already talked to the administration
about continuing my work within the prisons, being able to
(40:52):
come back and continue to work with people here. Guys
here obvious I got this project reabilitated project here to
read this on yards. I would love to do that.
Speaker 6 (41:04):
Isn't it true that the recidivism rates in Norway are
like four percent, you know, and the recidivism r from.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Where you were seventy plus per they were seventy plus percent.
Speaker 7 (41:16):
Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and
recruited through.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
These new methods of change in the way our prison
yard looks and how you interact with the mats and
creating a sense of community, and they were able to
plummet it down to the twenties, which is pretty it's
really unheard of rashidivism met low, and in California it's
up in the fifty. It's very high. Majority of people
(41:41):
come up but come back. So that has to be changed.
It's too expensive. It's a public welfare, correct, right, So
I think we'll change it, you know, I think we'll
change it.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
How have you found.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
Having the support of.
Speaker 6 (41:57):
Your wife through this journey? I mean that must have been,
you know, a life saver in many ways.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
It is.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
I mean, yeah. One of the things you learned though,
is that like when you're here, like your family suffers
with you. Yes, they suffer from from that absence. And
if I'm worrying about you, and it's no differently with
my wife, uh, as well as my expended family. So
they've been really brave and strong and supportive. She's been
(42:28):
tremendous from my hometown, New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
And she's a litigator. You know, she's a lawyer, is yeah?
Not in not in cases and business cases, right or something?
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Do not let your wife handle your appeal? No, No,
that's not a good idea, right. It sounds cheap, but
I probably won't work out to it, right, Oh yeah, no,
But she's she's tremendous and put herself through law school
oppressive woman. Now with this, you would have to have
you have to sort of keep love in your life.
(43:03):
You have to stay because you know, you're surrounded by
heart conditions here. Yeah, uh, a suppressive environment. So I
just try to stay, stay connected to to uh you
know something softer.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, keep listening, there's more to come.
Speaker 9 (43:25):
M How did it come to be that you and
(43:46):
your brother Eric are now in the same prison.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
How did that come to be?
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Well, we were. We were unfortunately separated when we first
came to prison. I think from all of the the
nineties and the conviction and the corrections kind of just
mirrors the public sentiment, and at the time in the
conviction in the nineties, there sent their assumption was be
very tenative with Lyle and Eric and separate them, and
(44:11):
so they did. I was very unfortunate. My family was
kind of horrified by it, and we stayed separated for
two decades. I worked very hard to try to get
back to my brother, couldn't do it. And then I
think as the culture changed and there was a lot
number of us, you had sixty seconds remaining sorry called.
Speaker 6 (44:33):
Back sure, okay, So we were in the middle of
how you got to be reunited with your brother after
two decades.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Right, right, So they the corrections does kind of mirror
the culture, and I think the shift in the late
two thousand and where there was a number, there was
a year or two where there's quite a few documentaries
just like there is just now again on the case.
(45:09):
And Nick Wolfe produces a lot of order and he
did a prime time series that people can watch if
they want. It's very good. It was on NBC about
the case, and I think that the public learned a
lot about the case again at that time and felt
very strongly that maybe there wasn't a just result. And
then the last scenes in that show showed Eric and
(45:32):
I being separated after the conviction, and I think that,
you know, there was a huge outpouring of concern about
and the kind of outrage about us being separated that
they went into corrections just apparently just overwhelming amount of
email and other stuff, and they just the corrections chiefs
just decided that, you know what, that was probably the
(45:54):
wrong thing to separate them. At least now it's no
longer a good idea and not not right. They asked
me about it, We discussed it, and you know, this whole.
You know, I'm here in large part because I love
my brother and you know, want to rescue him. And
(46:15):
do you know, we've just had that bond. I don't
know if it's it's traumatic bonding from going to a
childhood together like that, but we still feel it incredibly strongly,
and so it was a little it was unfortunate. Circums stated.
This is my wife, Rebecca lived right across the street
from me up in Northern California. When I had I
(46:36):
was in charge of the make government in Northern California,
representing the inmense with the administration, so I just kind
of was very established. So to leave, even ask to
leave and travel all the way across the state to
San Diego and start over with my brother was really
a big, a big deal, quite a big ill lot
to sacrifice there, and I just but it's just like,
(46:57):
I don't know, I never felt complete separated from Eric.
I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't find any
peace in it. And I told my wife for back a, look,
I need to be with my brother. I just can't
do the rest of my life. Because we didn't know
that we would have this opportunity to get out that
we have now. So she she's gracious, she shows grace,
(47:21):
she understood and with the climate changing, they allowed me
to go and I was reunited with Eric, and that
was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah what what did that moment?
Speaker 5 (47:32):
I mean, you hadn't laid eyes on, had you.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
I hadn't know. We had correspondence approval so I could write.
But that was it. So he looked in good condition,
but older as he was correct and I was. But
I recognized them, Rosie, I recognize him. Of course it's
a good thing. Yeah, I would really that if I studied, Yeah,
(47:55):
with the wrong brother. Yeah, I'm over here low oh
on a cli So yeah, he.
Speaker 6 (48:02):
I got to see both Lyle and Eric when I
went to visit the prison to UH to see about
this beautification and rehabilitation project.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
It's it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 6 (48:13):
I also went there to see about the guide dogs,
which Dakota is currently applied.
Speaker 9 (48:20):
To get one, and I saw all the men who
train the dogs, one of them that.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
That Dakota will be getting. It was it was pretty
overwhelming and fascinating.
Speaker 6 (48:30):
But I saw you. I had seen a couple of
images of you online and then when I saw your brother,
I was like, he looks just the same, you know,
to me, and he looked just the same.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Yeah, we're kind of well preserved, right, because it's like
a big sargine can. Yeah, And so that's you know,
we're relatively well preserved. But still it's a lot of
passes of time. Oh my god. And it was very
emotional to see Eric and Hygeburston that's years of course,
have a moment a moment together and it was just
(49:04):
quite extraordinary. So there was work for all that work
to try to get here, and you live right next
to each other, and for work on a lot of
the same projects, work on something separately, and it's probably
some piece.
Speaker 6 (49:21):
You mentioned just before that you never thought there would
be a bit of a chance of you getting out,
and now with this habeas and this new evidence, there
there truly is.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And have you and your brother discussed what that might
be like for you to get out?
Speaker 4 (49:41):
You know, right, I haven't done.
Speaker 6 (49:42):
It, you know, I know.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
I know you say you know you should, you should
will it into existence, you know what I mean, And
you talk about that, and I mean I get that,
but it's much it's a lot harder to do your
time in prison when you're focused on being out of prison, right,
So I really has too much responsibility to hear with
all this, and just I really want to do a
good job with it, and so I try not to
(50:05):
get distracted. I try not to do that too much.
And then of course you know, you never know if
you live in that world that is as fair as
you hope, and so I try to stay focused here.
But it is hard not to be hopeful. But my
brother and I have not purposely I think not really
disgusted me and must.
Speaker 6 (50:25):
Be hard to hope in there, just even hard to
like you as you say, you got to focus on
this minute, stay present.
Speaker 7 (50:33):
Who's caol Andre? A telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
Yes, but it would be amazing to have another chapter
of life. And like I said, I have talked to
Corrections to try to see if I could continue to
do the work I'm doing here, because that's what I've
been doing for twenty years to thirty years, SOLF. I'd
like to use that experience and keep helping here. And
the answer I've gotten is yes, absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 6 (50:58):
There are some people life who have spent time in
prison and when they're out or imagine getting out.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
They don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Ever.
Speaker 6 (51:06):
Again, they don't want to, you know, go fix the
library and the prison. They don't want They just want
nothing to do with it. I think it's very commendable
that you care about this population that you are a
part of. For thirty four years of your adult life.
You had abused as a childhood. Yes you were rich,
Yes there was a privilege that came with it, but
(51:30):
the horrors of incest can never be measured.
Speaker 5 (51:32):
And you know, you went from that.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
Kind of prison to this kind of prison, and freedom
as an adults has never been in your grasp.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
Really, Yeah, and exactly, and that was all beautifully said.
It's and prison is about the men that are here.
There are a lot of you know, I mean, they've
done some terrible things and they are doing you know,
health has pretty long, harsh sentences, and so a lot
(52:03):
of them are just not the same people they were
in their early twenties. And I think so many guys
here were like seventeen, eighteen, nineteen twenty, you know, and
now they're in their fifties and they should be. Most
of them will have a chance to get out, and
so what kind of person do you want living next
to you out there? You know? So I feel like
I don't think it's a good idea for me to
turn my back on the men here in corrections here
(52:27):
just because I've been released. That doesn't sound right. It
doesn't feel right. And so I would like to continue
to use that experience to work work on in recidivism
rates and rehabilitation in prison. I think I can do it,
and I'm just happy that there's support for that.
Speaker 5 (52:47):
Yeah, I really thank you. There's tremendous support for you
out here, Lyle.
Speaker 6 (52:52):
And you know, I have shared our friendship with a
lot of my friends, and all but one was, you know,
very interested in hearing. Who is the man that I
have come to know is and uh And I am
happy to say that you know, you have become a
true real friend and uh And I always believed what
(53:14):
you said. I saw your brother and you testify, and
I knew that there was no actor in the world
who could act that unless they had lived it.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
And and you're not even an actor.
Speaker 5 (53:25):
So but I could see you as a speaker.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
I could see you writing a book about your experience.
I can see you.
Speaker 6 (53:31):
Continuing to help in the in the Corrections World and uh,
you know you have not wasted a moment of your
life in there, uh, Lyle, and it's it's quite impressive.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
Well, you have your time on earth that you have,
and I just feel like I just didn't want to hide,
uh in the shadows of of you know what, all
the publicity, and so I know that there are guys
would do that, and I just felt like, you know what,
allowed to do something with your life that's you know, productive,
be a part of this community, you know, help and uh,
(54:07):
it's been great fulfillment. So I want to continue that. Well,
I think you do that. I think it's very obvious.
And so that's one of the reasons that I wanted
to do the podcast with you and be friend you.
And I don't know if you mentioned it on the podcast,
but you know I wrote you way back in the
early nineties.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right when my show was gone, right.
Speaker 4 (54:33):
And I had a feeling that you had a similar
history that I had in some ways. I just could
feel it for some reason. Uh, and survivors are connected
like that.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yes, I completely agree with you. I completely annoy and
you're hypervigilance so to.
Speaker 7 (54:48):
Call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.
Speaker 4 (54:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (54:52):
The hypervigilance that you develop in a house with that
going on, you know, continues after you're out of the house,
but it's still a.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Mind game, you know.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Hypervigilant has everyone's mood. Who's where, what's happening?
Speaker 4 (55:05):
You know.
Speaker 6 (55:06):
It's it's a very corrosive, corrupting and devastating, uh situation
in so many homes in the country, and it's a
problem that we ignore largely, and we ignore it more
when it happens to boys than it does happen to boys.
Speaker 4 (55:25):
You know. Tragically, it's a very American story.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Now, yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 6 (55:34):
Vast majority of children who are invested do not kill
their parents, but about three hundred kids a year in
this century kill their parents, you know, and even more
parents kill their children.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
And it's something we can't turn a blind eye top.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
You know. Well, it's just it's just countless shattered lives,
you know, and how that life shatters. It could be homicide,
but it could also be suicide. It could be a
life of drug addiction, it could be a life of
being in battering relationships, It could be a life of
battering others because you're acting out from it. So the
(56:12):
way the lives get shattered very and of course I know,
you know, we've re experienced the fact that an abuse
that can actually it ends up in a homicide and
they've killed the perpetrator, you know, if they've killed their
views or whether it be a battered woman or a child,
they do. You know, the justice system is sometimes very
(56:33):
unforgiving what in the mitigation of it. It's something that
they've just sort of coming to terms what now, much
better than in the nineties. But you know, I think
it's a huge problem in the country, and so I
have experienced it with just an outpouring of people who
(56:55):
you know, it was one of the reasons I testified.
One of the reasons was to just give voice what
happened to me because so many people were writing me
saying they were afraid to talk, right, you know, and
I knew they would be listening. You know. I kept
a letter from a sex abuse actually a great victim
in my pocket while I testified the whole time, and
(57:15):
it just to give me strength. And there's such a
deep connection in the country with that community. But there's
still suffer right and there needs to be a continued
appreciation for what victims that go through. Yes, and better
better outreach to help them, right, because I really helped
them really, you know. I mean there's so much going
(57:37):
on in families that you're all the same where people
are not. You know, you have to help. When you
see something, you have to stop it early. Yeah, I
shouldn't end up like Eric and I without a.
Speaker 6 (57:48):
Doubt, without a doubt. Well, listen, I am fully one
hundred supportive of you, and I'm waiting to hear what.
Speaker 7 (57:57):
Happens with the fifty seconds remaining.
Speaker 3 (58:01):
I want to thank you Lyle for doing this today.
You'll come back and do it again.
Speaker 6 (58:06):
I would love to have to have you talk about
it as the caste progress is because I'm very interested
in looking forward to yours and your brother's freedom for
the first time really in.
Speaker 3 (58:17):
Your whole life.
Speaker 4 (58:18):
Thank you, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
All right, you take care of yourself.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
Okay, Okay, Well, thank you so much. I will talk
to you soon. Bye bye. Well.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
I hope this helped reframe a series of events that
are in the cultural zeitgeist that need to be corrected,
re examined, fixed. I'm really interested in what you think.
Could you Please send a voice memo about this episode,
and maybe we'll do an entire episode with your thoughts
and observations, and I will answer whatever questions you might
(59:00):
have about Lyle or his brother or the case. So
send him in if you're so moved, send in your
voice memos the addresses Onward Rosie at gmail dot com.
Next week, join me for the outrageously Funny the very
Tall Jewish hysterical comedian, actor, podcaster, and writer. My buddy
(59:24):
and friend for many, many many years, Judy Gold
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