December 19, 2023 • 42 mins
Sam Harris; singer, author, husband, dad, activist and Rosie's dear friend for over 40 years, is our guest this week.
Meeting during their Star Search days, Rosie and Sam recognized each other as kindred spirits as soon as they laid eyes on one another, forming a life long familial relationship. Listen in as they chat at warp-speed about their show biz experiences, including being turned down for who they are, and then succeeding because of it; parenthood and becoming a better person for your children, and all the life they've lived along way.Our last new episode before our hiatus, we'll be back on Jan 16, 2024 with a new show consisting entirely of your questions and comments for Rosie!
Please send your voice memos to OnwardRosie@gmail.com (2 min or under if possible!)
Food On Foot - Empowering Our Neighbors To Overcome Homelessnesshttps://www.foodonfoot.org
For more info on Sam Harris' books and albumsSamHarris.com
From all of us at Onward with Rosie O'Donnell, Have A Very Happy and Healthy Holiday and New Year!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, it is me Rosie o'donald Starr of
the Flintstones. I have to say, lots going on in
my life right now, so many issues involving rodents, I
mean squirrels. They are in the rodent family, and everybody
tells me that in my little messages on my social media.
But what I did was, I thought, you know, let
(00:33):
me get a bird feeder that takes pictures of the
birds and put it where the squirrels can reach it,
and I can get all these photos of you know,
because I have a hard time holding the phone and
getting the right angle while i'm doing you know. It's
so I thought this would solve my problem. But you
know what, it ruined everything. It really did, because first
(00:54):
of all, they don't they stopped having interest in me.
Here I was imagining that I really meant something to them,
that I am like a member of their universe, and reality, no,
they just want the nuts. They don't care about me,
you know. So I would go sit in the one
seat that I sat in when I was training them,
and they would come and look at me and then
run up to the squirrel feeder like screw you, o'donald.
(01:17):
You know. I was like, this cannot be happening, you know,
so I took down the bird feeder. I took it down.
I might put it up in the tree and get
pictures of the birds, and maybe that will be fine.
But I just feel as though it really caused tremendous
damage in my neediness of them. I like when they
(01:38):
come and take it from my hand. I feel like
snow white when it's going on. I like to give
them a little scratch underneath. I like to have a
connection with my squirrels. And you know, Laurie, the producer
of this podcast, said, you know, ro You've been doing
this for over twenty five years, and it's true. When
my show ended, I had my first squirrel, Shady, and
(02:01):
now I have four more in the backyard. And I
have to say I'm a much happier person now that
they're coming up and taking it right from my hand.
So there you go. Listen, we have a wonderful show today.
I want to get right to it. How do I
begin to tell you about my guest today. He's one
of the most talented humans I know, honest to God,
and I've known him since we were both in our
(02:23):
very early twenties. His journey begins with the Grand Slam
winner of the very first season of Star Search. She
was twenty one years old and I was on the
following season and I met him and we became best
of friends. After he did Star Search and won, he
got a record contract with Motown and he did Broadway
(02:44):
shows and Tony's and Drama League Awards and People's Choice Awards,
and you know, he and legendary collaborators. He's almost from
another era in showbiz. He's best buddies with Liza Minelli.
He worked with Michael Jackson, Barack Obama. His credits are endless, endless, endless,
and you know, he is also an author. He is
(03:07):
an author of a book, The Substance of All Things,
and it is beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. He
is my friend of forty years. He has you know,
he has been there and I have been there, and
we've been through it all. We're going to catch up
(03:29):
and chat onward with me and Sam Harris right now.
Enjoy here. He is my friend, and yours Sam Harris.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
High Sweeteartwadays, how are you really good?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
There? You go? You look really good and you look
really happy. And when I saw you last, it was
such a wonderful little afternoon lunch because, uh, you know,
I miss you. I miss you and Danny and your
beautiful son who I totally fell in love with. Did
he like that hoodie?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I gave him the hoodie and I do too.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Of course you're kidding me now. We first met on
Star Search in nineteen eighty four. I was on you
were on eighty three, right, yeah, yes, And I remember
vividly watching you Sam with your toughsedo jacket and your
high tops and your adorable haircut, and your voice was
(04:34):
I don't even know how to explain it. You have
what I considered to be the Internet voice, which which means,
here's my theory. Somebody like Ariana Grande, unlike you and me,
did not grow up having to wait once a year
to see the sound of music on TV. She could
just watch it over and over and over and then
(04:55):
mimic and listen and be inspired by and but you
didn't your age, and you had a voice that that
sounded like you'd been doing it for fifty years and
had like already reached the pinnacle of a vocal excellence
on story, don't you think that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I mean, it was you know what we didn't have
We couldn't go on you know, YouTube, but we did
have records I believe in. And that's you know. I
would sing in my room all the time. And I
had a very very peculiar you know, I grew up
in the little town in Oklahoma, and I had this
very peculiar sense of I would listen to like Aretha
(05:38):
Franklin and Billie Holliday and and I listened to Edith Poff.
I mean, like, how did I know who Edith Poff was?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's what I was thinking. How did you know did
your parents listen?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, my grandmother gave me a Judy Garland at Carnegie
Hall record, which you know I played. You know what
I'm listening to this Billie Holiday, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin.
These are people who sang with their soul. They sang
with honesty. And you know, yes, if I have a gift,
(06:15):
I think it's that I tell a story. I am
a lyric guy above all, I am a lyric guy,
and so the stuff that comes out of my mouth
is influenced by the lyric. I don't do like, you know,
riffs and things for the sake of them, like they
the lyric tells you what to do, right.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
M Yeah, you were twenty one years old? Well where
did they find you? How did you?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I heard the story. I just heard this story. Steve
Stark was the talent searcher person and I was playing
in this dumby, dumpy, dumpy, little dark, nasty dive called
the Horn in Santa Monica, like the kind of place
you don't want to see the lights on, right, And
I was singing there for like twenty five dollars a set,
(07:01):
you know. And he was just looking around all these places,
and I just because I just reunited with Steve a
few weeks ago, we went to Vegas and saw Brad
Garrett and saw your brown together.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Oh my god, are you kidding?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was amazing. Anyway, So Steve tells a story about
he was looking at all these little places and he
went to a pay phone because we didn't have cell phones, right,
and he called the producer Sam Riddle. You remember saying
oh yes, and he said he held the phone out
and said, listen to this while I was singing live.
(07:35):
I never knew that. So they called me in, but
Rowe I sang for them in this they were so unorganized.
It was the first year. It was a room like
a ten by fifteen room with eight people in it
behind the table, and they didn't have enough room for
the piano. The piano was in the hall. God and
I stood in the doorway and sang, I took us off,
and they rejected me. No, like five times. I learned.
(07:59):
I thought that rejected me once. Steve told me that
they rejected me multiple times because he kept pushing and
I was too theatrical. I was too not. I think
they wanted sort of a cookie cutter pop thing. And
finally he said, I think this is gonna, you know,
get us some attention.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So now would be would in nineteen eighty three, you
would too theatrical be code words for too gay? Could
be because Sam Riddle told me that I was too
much of a tomboy to ever succeed in show business.
Did he really to my face? Yeah, he said, well,
you'll never work in show business because you're too tough
and you're too much you know, too tough was the
(08:39):
code word that he that he used. And I remember.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Feeling too theatrical.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, too theatrical?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
No, no kidding, well maybe, yeah, and also but you remember,
you know, they didn't tell us. It's not like these
talent shows now where they dress you and they meant
to you and they talk about you know, and they
give them the catalog. It was so so simple and
so row. We got to do whatever we wanted. Yes,
they you know, I mean I got to choose my
(09:07):
material when I walked in with that outfit with the
tails and the sneakness and the high tops, and they,
I mean, I got like, what right, right right? But
they didn't are you? And so I got to represent myself.
Did they? Hey? Did they? Did they look at your
material or in advance or sensor it or anything? Never?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
We had ninety seconds and the clock ticked down from
ninety seconds right in front of you on the where
the judges were, and you had to be done before
it hit zero. So, you know, I was on a
bunch of times in a row, and by the you know,
I was twenty two. And by the time I was
(09:47):
on like the fifth or sixth time, I didn't have
any material left. And I would call friends, I called
friend comedians. But we were all young, you know. So
can I use that joke about the waterbed? Can I
use that and you know, and it was unbelievably life
changing for me and I know for you too, to
be shot in the stratosphere on a show at a
(10:09):
time when they were just introducing a new network. Right,
It's almost like that show that really propelled me into
working across the country, into being a headliner instead of
an opening act. You know, it was it was life
ult it was well, look.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
At the time, I mean there were three four channels, right,
and so we had twenty five million people a week watching.
That's like, I mean, shows don't get that. Now they
get eight million. They're lucky, right and so, and people
love to root for people, and there was no other
talent shows on. Now there's twelve, right exactly. So what
(10:50):
did your family think?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Were you a kid who was encouraged because of your
talent to go and do this? Was your family supportive?
How did they react?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
They were very supportive growing up, And you know, it
was a double edged sword because it was like supporting
my talent, but it was like, but my father was
He actually said to me that I needed to change
by the time I was thirteen. It was like I
was to a sissy. He actually used those words, Oh, sorry,
(11:26):
and you know, we all go through it, but they
were supportive in that. My mom, you know, it was
right by Tulsa, which was the biggest town, nearest city,
and so she took me to auditions when I was ten.
You know, they they did as much as was available, right,
But it was always with this a little but not
(11:47):
for my mom, but with my dad a little, with
a little sort of caveat, with a little warning, you know.
I remember once I was in the we were in
the car, my dad and I. We were playing the
radio and it was like whatever Aretha singing? Respect And
he turned to me and he said, why do you
have to sing in the same octave? And I said,
because I can't.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes, yes, but how great. I don't think my father
would have known octaves or you know, bunch lines or
anything show bins related.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, my dad was a band director, a high school band.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Roh how about that?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And my mom was, you know, she was like an
actress in high school. And we were talking about this
the other day, about laying on the floor in the
living room on the gold shag carpet and her reading
poetry to me.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, And when I was in a play, she would
want to cue me, right, she would want to when
I was memorized in my life except Roe, she would
read all the other parts even if I wasn't in
the scene. She would.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Mom, I'm not on this page, doesn't matter, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, it was a little bit like that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
We'll be right back with more of Sam Harris. Now,
(13:23):
when did you were you worried at that time about
like about gayness or being gay or people finding out
where you? Did you know you were gay that young?
Did you eat ten? No? No? When you were on
Star Search, like twenty one years old?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Oh? God, yes? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
In fact, because I left home when I was fifteen,
Oh I did not. I'd gone away for the summer
to do like a to do opry Land, and we
lied about my age because I was only fifteen and
my seat this is the thing my parents I called
my son is fifteen. I would never I can't imagine
letting my child just go and work and live somewhere
else at fifteen. Right, they did. And I don't know
(14:01):
if it's because they didn't feel like they had a choice,
because they had to respect. I needed to find my
own tribe. I needed to find others like me. I
knew it, but of course you know, you don't you
want to change it. But I was very luck. I
fell in love when I was sixteen, good for you,
and lived with the person I was in love with
when I was sixteen and seventeen. Wow, And it was funny.
(14:24):
There were four of us in the sharing an apartment
and I didn't know. His name was Scott, Scott Pierce,
and so Jason Graw Do you remember, you know Jason
grow from Broadway stuff anyway, he was from Tulsa to
We were newsboys and gypsy when I was ten anyway,
so he was an opu Land So I knew someone.
And so he and I were roommates in one room,
(14:44):
and Scott and this other guy were roommates in the
other room. So Scott and I were in the same show,
and we were starting to fall in love. And it
was so you know, sweet and simple and beautiful. And
one day when no one was home, I moved all
of Scott's stuff into my room and I moved all
of jason stuff into the other room. It was never mentioned.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Oh my god, I love it, but.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I loved him, and it was the first time I
fell in love. And then when I came back for
this interim before I went back again, I left home
for good, I became very, very depressed. And it wasn't
so much it wasn't as much guilt about being gay
as it was that I had experienced love. And I thought,
(15:32):
in that climate of that time, that I would never
have it again, that I wouldn't be it wouldn't be possible.
The idea of marriage Jesus Christ, now give a child, Yeah, possible.
And so my depression was and I will never have this.
And I tried to take my own life, oh baby,
And obviously I was not successful.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Thank God. The only thing you're not successful at is that.
So that's good, it's good.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Hard.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Well, you've had such a career, honey, you've had such
a career, But you tried to take your life. Did
your parents know? Was it a big thing? A hospitalization?
Was it?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
No? They didn't know. Well what happened. I took I
got pills from this kid at school second all, and
I took like twenty or thirty or whatever. He gave
me a little sandwich baggy and then my brother my
parents were out for the night. My brother stepped on
my grandmother's darning needle and it broke off in his
foot and he was screaming, and I was the only
(16:31):
person to help him, and I went and threw up
and threw up and helped him, and then neighbors came over,
and then I drank a pot of coffee. And they
hadn't been in my system long enough to completely take effect,
but it was like a godsend. It was like a protection.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Somebody was protecting you something, yes, something big.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And by the way, not to bring this down, but
just to touch on it. That little baby boy, that
little baby brother died a few weeks ago, only fifty
seven from what from what? From congestive heart failure, but
a very troubled soul, but ultimately the essence of him.
(17:14):
God talented. Oh my god, I think I'm talented. This
kid is like he broke, he produced, he sang, he
was amazing. And I just got back from his memorial
with my mom and it was a I don't want
to stay too long on this, but there ain't nothing
like a sibling. Baby.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yes you know, yes, you know. My oldest brother Eddie
went through that three years ago and we almost lost
him and he was in a coma. They put him
in a coma and no, oh but he now he
has an el vat. You know what that is, a
pump in your.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Body, and my brother wouldn't get it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Well, he got it, and he has it and he's
you know, doing well, and supposedly he's going to get
a heart transplant at sixty three. And yeah, but I
never have felt the dread and panic of the concept
of losing him. I couldn't. I couldn't get stable or
(18:10):
you know, around around that topic. I was beside myself.
So I we don't. We can leave it because it's
too heavy.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, it's too exactly talk about it.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
First of all, I finished and loved your book, Sam Harris.
You are such a good writer. You are such a
good I read this book and I was like, this
is a movie. I can see this in my mind.
It read like some kind of famous, successful novelist who
(18:45):
who threw these out like John Irving, just throw another
one out, like you know, Pat Conroy, right, And my god, honey,
I was blown away the substance of all things. How
did this book come about? Was it delivered to you
like a song is to an artist? Because it feels
like you were channeling something.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, first of all, thank you, and you were texting
me as you were going through it, and it meant
so much to me that you were so moved by it.
After I wrote my first book, which was a memoir
ham Yes, which then became a show, which then became
a TV thing, I went through a writer's block and
I don't do I mean, I kind of like, Okay,
(19:32):
I'm assigned to do something, I have to do something,
and I just it just this. I didn't know what
to write because my editor, my publishers Simon and Schuster, said,
we don't want you to write another sort of David
SADARISI kind of thing, essays and stuff. We want you
to write fiction. You have the chops. We want you
to write fiction. I was dead. I couldn't. I had
(19:55):
no concept of that. It sounds so large writing fiction,
and so I could get past it. And actually Danny
and I were at for you listen as Danny as
my husband and write some friend's house. Yes he is
Doug and Paula's. And I was telling my friend Doug.
He said, well, you don't normally you just kind of
(20:16):
go and I said, I can't get attached to anything.
And he looked at me and he said, Okay, let's talk.
And he started talking about my childhood and in Oklahoma
and growing up and different things and this there's an
essence of autobiographical stuff in this. I don't want to
I don't really want to touch on it. But what
it did was inspired me to start thinking about this
(20:38):
time of my life. And I said, do you have
a legal pad in the bed and so for instead
of spending the evening with our friends, I sat in
a corner and started writing notes. And then it was
kind of like what you said, It just started kind
of coming, and thankfully I typed very fast, and sometimes
I didn't know what was going to happen until it happened,
(21:00):
and I didn't know what they were going to say
until they said it. I had a broad view of it.
But then, as you know, it's in two parts. It's current, yes,
where it's the adult. THEO is the protagonist who's a therapist,
and it looks back on his life as a twelve
year old boy in rural Oklahoma in nineteen sixty nine.
(21:20):
And I only wrote the old the first one, the
boy book first, and then my editor said what happens
to THEO. Mike, what do you mean? He said, what
happens to him?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And then I started thinking and then I wrote the
whole second part and it just kind of came together.
It was I write fast and I edit slow.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Got it, you know? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
But thank you, thank you. This book means it's my finest,
the most proudest work of anything I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Listen, see it blew me away, Sam, It blew me away.
I was unprepared. I did not see you at all
in the book. I didn't think that there was auto.
I was transfixed by these characters with deformed hands and
and the scary man in the house, and like, I
was completely enthralled in this book, and I found I found,
(22:15):
I was like, I was stunned. What are you going
to do with it? Please tell me you're making it
into something. Are you allowed to talk about this part?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm not allowed to be specifics okay, but I can't
tell you that it is in development for a film.
First it was brought to me or said to me,
this is a mini series, okay, like a limited a
limited series. And so I wrote it. I wrote it
in five parts in five hours. I'm not five yeah,
five out. I didn't write it in five hours, right,
(22:46):
come on now, mister. And so when that was done,
then I took it to this uh this studio guy
and he read the first two episodes and said, I
was wrong. This is a feature. Well that's what I
preferred anyway. But if I hadn't gone through the process
(23:06):
of editing a four hundred something page book into five hours,
I never would have been able to bring it down.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
To two right, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So it really was a part of that, and that's hard.
You have to get rid of You have to get
rid of things that aren't essential. And I wrote him
once and I'm like, there is a trailer behind me
of blood.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, yeah, yeah, but you have to do that now. Now,
are you the only writer or do they you're the
writer of the screenplay?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I am. And I didn't want to do it really
because I'm at an age where I'm at an age
where I'm like, you know what, I don't really want
to wear all the hats. I don't need to do it.
I want somebody better than me. I want somebody who's
going to bring things to it that I can't possibly
that can see from the outside, I adamantly didn't want
to do well. They said you're the only person can
(24:02):
write it, and I did. I was reticent, and then
I got demogan. I had nothing to do, so I
wrote the So so I wrote it. And the next
steps is now we're in development. Uh, there are directors
in mind, there are some casting things in mind that
you and I have shared.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Which is wonderful. Every choice is wonderful, every choice, Thank you, honey.
And I wish you nothing but the best with that,
I really do I I I think it's gonna again
launch you into a different career path than you've had
up till now. You've you've done so many things, honey,
Broadway shows, movies, musicals, like you've done so many things,
(24:43):
and that you also have this in you is astounding,
it really is. Now, where about me? Where about the
same age you and May and we are? And why
one year? Come on?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Now do you think about what you want for this
final third chapter of our lives? You know thirty to sixties,
you know thirty one to thirty, thirty to sixty, and
now on what do you want?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I noticed you. I noticed you don't say thirty or
whatever it's to thirty, thirty to sixty and sixty to ninety.
You didn't say that, You just said sixty on.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, because I can't imagine living to ninety. I can't imagine.
Oh right, you know the O'donnald's. They don't survive that
long usually, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You never know you're a survivor.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
When my son was born in two thousand and eight,
I knew. I made the choice not to be on
the road and concert. We were living in Los Angeles.
I made the choice not to go to New York
to do Broadway show because it would up end my family.
And you know, with a Broadway show, you don't know
if it's going to close in two weeks. Correct, And
so I made a choice. And that's how the first
(25:53):
book came about. Because I could be here, I could
be a parent, and I could and you know, I mean,
I've sacrificed some things for myself, but certainly not regrettably.
So you talk about this third chapter. I love I
will always sing, of course, I will always sing. But
(26:15):
I love writing. I love you talking about this chapter
with the writing. I love writing, I love directing, and
so as much as I and I love acting, you know,
I love being you know what's funny, and I think
you're exactly the same way. Whatever I'm doing is what I.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love the most, exactly at the moment, correct.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
You know, whatever I'm doing is like, oh, this is
what I this is what I want to do. Because
if I was doing a new show, which I would
love to now Cooper's fifteen and what I do at
Broadway show, now, yeah, I'll schlep them over and we'll
figure it out. And if that's what I was doing,
then that would be all I want to do. But
looking outside of that love, I love the process of writing, yeah, creating.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And the book again is the Substance of All Things.
You can get it at Amazon or if there is
a bookstore in your town you're lucky, go to it,
support it. If not, you know, click your way to
this beautiful, beautiful book, The Substance of All Things by
Sam Harris. So more with Sam Harris after this. I
(27:47):
love the way you do family, Sam. You do family
in a beautifully consistent way, prioritizing all three of you
and the friends that you hold dear like family. And
it's admirable and you you've done a lot to protect it.
(28:10):
And it's very uh touching to me to see how
committed you are to being a present parent and partner.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Thank you especially from you, because you are above all
family and you always have been. Yeah, and I remember
when your first babies came yes, and you keep getting
new ones.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I know, and now at almost sixty two. I got
a call the other day and the guy was like,
do you know anybody? And I'm like, please, don't, don't
call me and ask me this. It's too tempting, it's
too like even though I know that's what every single
friend and therapist says, don't you dam But now with
(28:57):
little Clay, I have my hands full, you know, in
a way that I never did before.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, but now you're ready for it. I don't know
that you would have been ready for this prior to this,
and it's confusing. And Clay is extraordinary. And they are
smart and funny and creative and complicated, complicated and complicated.
(29:26):
But you know what comes with you know, like my
parents have me when they were you know, in their
early early early twenties. And the great thing about that
age when you have kids is you have all this energy.
But the great thing about our age is you know
how to utilize less energy to be more effective. Yes,
and we have that life experience, and in your case,
(29:48):
particularly that parent experience. You know they're going to be okay.
You go step by step, day by day, and you
do it beautifully. When I watch you with them, it's remarkable.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, you know, and I it's it's something that you know,
my shrink said that, you know the death of your
mother you're still trying to recover from by mothering. You
just keep mothering because you never got to do that
story as the way you wanted it. And I have
to tell you that this January they turn eleven. And
(30:22):
I was so worried that during her tenth year I
was going to die, like happened to me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Oh honey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So I'm so happy to get to January seventh because
I know it's like, okay, we're out of that danger
zone now, God knows. You know, that's magical thinking. But
it was hard for me. It was hard for me
to you know, and that's why I moved to Malibu
and took care myself in a different way and got
a chef, and you know, I want to commit myself
(30:52):
to being here for her, you know, for them.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Isn't it easier? Yes, isn't it easier? Times? And I
know it's not supposed to be this way, Well, I
guess it is. It's easier to do it for someone else,
particularly our children, because you experienced that at ten years old,
and you want to be around as long as you
can be and healthy and present. Yes, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
My mother is eighty five. I moved her from Oklahoma.
I shouldn't say I moved her. It was all of
her own volition. My father died four years ago. We
kind of thought that she was going to spring from that,
but then COVID happened. Then her best friend died from COVID,
and then she was sequestered. And so now she said,
I want to move here. And I was so grateful
(31:42):
because I realized that since I was sixteen years old,
I've never spent more than two weeks a year with
her because of holiday you know what I mean. Now
I get her full time. But having lost my brother,
and it doesn't matter how old you are, how old
the child is, it is. It is something beyond my
understanding of grief. Yes, a parent losing their child, but
I see it and I watch it and I am.
(32:07):
It's our job to take care of them, but it's
our job to take care of us. We want to
be around, We want to be there for any circumstance.
And as we know, it's up and down and sideways,
and you just roll with it and you love, love, love.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And that's what you do. Really well. Cooper is adored
and it's obvious. He is a secure, handsome, tall, you know, strapping, strapping,
young athletic boy, and he just moves with a confidence
that comes from being cherished. You know.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Well, I thank you. But you know, when he was
very little and I would sing to him, he would
put his hands over his ears. I'd be like stop,
and I would be do you do you know who
I am?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Do you have any idea?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yes? People pay, people pay to say Daddy, do this.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And it's free for you. Yeah, and you don't want it.
It was hysterical. He's not into theater at all, my kids,
he's not into my kind of my kind of music.
It's like, who where did the swat? Yeah thing? They said,
nature nurture. It's totally nature with him. But you know, he,
like you said, he's totally six to one yeah, and
(33:20):
a couple of times ro he has puff gotten up
close to me in my face, had kind of puffed
up like and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Oh, buddy, you're crossing a dangerous line.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Dave, I said, you will never be bigger than me.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you know, that's his first year in therapy right there, right,
he's going to be you know what my father said
to me, you know exactly. Yeah, it's amazing. How is
it having your mom around? How do you just love
every moment of it? Is it just all you've dreamed?
Because I imagine my mother being alive, and what would we
be doing, how would it be working? You know? And
(34:00):
so I think it must be glorious.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's it is glorious. She lives ten minutes from me.
I see her almost every day. We talk several times
a day, and I am so grateful. I'm so grateful.
She's a joy, she's funny, she's smart, she fetches about everything,
and we just kind of try to find a less
She's in a retirement place, right, yeah, independent living, and
(34:27):
so she's found a network of people good. And I'm
so grateful that she came here in August and three
months into my brother dying, because she's settled. She does
have a network and I can't imagine her being in
that town because they lived in the same town San
Springs without him, yass without him and sitting in her
house alone, and then I would have had to bring
(34:48):
her here now anyway. So it is a blessing. It
is a blessing. And Roe, I will say to you,
I know that you believe this. You talk about what
would be be doing, and your mother is doing everything
with you. I know that she's in your heart. You
carry her with you, and you know, I know you're
honest about everything. But the issues with your dad and
(35:10):
all that stuff is completely your mother's relationship supersedes all
of that, right, and it's with you, and just like
my brother, we carry it on. Yes, And you know
what the other thing about being a parent is it
makes you a better person than you really want to be.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, you have to. You know, you got to show
up to them. I don't always show up for myself,
but I will show up right right.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Well, even just like modeling behavior. This morning, I was
taking into school and it's very trafficky, and he's like,
I've got finals, I've got finals today, And he's not
really he's very low key, much more low key than
Danny and me. So we're driving and there's a lot
of traffic and I'm letting people in. Yeah, lane, what
are you doing? What are you doing? And I said,
there's always time to let someone in. It's going to talk.
(35:55):
Take us ten seconds difference. Now, if he wasn't in
the car, I might be like, go on my way
by yes. Yes, but they make us be our best person.
And it's actually true that they make us be our
best person. We're not with them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Well, you know, Clay was very upset about all the
homeless people that they saw on the way to and
from school, and they're like, you know, we have to
do something. We have to do something. Every time I
see a homeless person, I say to her do you
think they need money? And they will say yes, you know,
(36:33):
or sometimes they say no, which I think is interesting.
But my giving her the chance to make a difference,
it makes a difference to her and to them, and
we don't. They don't like it, so or from either
day I'm doing it, they I'm doing the best. Second,
(36:53):
they are not very brave in public places like stores,
is a big over stimulation for them. And just last
week we were at the gas station and they wanted candy,
and I said, do you want me to give you
the money and you go in and do it yourself.
(37:13):
And they looked at me and they said, do you
know me at all? I was like, I'll come with you.
I'll come with you, I'll go together.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
You're talking about I have to do a plug for
an organization. Go because you're talking about the homeless. And
if you want to be in touch, if you live
in Los Angeles, it's called Food on Foot. And every
Sunday for the last twenty years come rainshine, hell, high water, whatever.
The homeless come and they are provided with you know,
(37:44):
food and essentials and hygiene things and stuff, and volunteers
come and give out things. They walk down with bags
and you have a one on one experience looking someone
in the face. It gives them a program to themselves settled.
They give them thousands of dollars and help fight find
(38:05):
apartments and jobs. And the people who go through this
program then become mentors for other people. Food on Foot.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Food on foot definitely. Now can anyone show come and
do with us? That's what I was going to say.
I would I would bring them with me.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Can the kid go okay? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And
here's the thing. You go on food on foot, find
it on the web, and you pay like twenty five
bucks to come and volunteer. Cooper and I go often.
It's really important. He was very scared and nervous in
the beginning. These are strangers, some of them not in
the best shape, and it has taken down some of
(38:41):
that fear of the unknown. But I do bring friends
and stuff, and so you and Clay are going to
come with me, and I assure you it will have
an effect on them.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, and you Yeah, show's face to face. You're with
people one on one, writing one check. Yes, it's a
one on one thing. I want to be on the
same playing fields as all the other humans I love
so much, you.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Know, because we ain't so spacial larm No.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We ain't, honey. And I don't even know if I
want to what you were saying at the beginning, if
I want to work now in this final third of
my of my life, like I have this little one
and they need my presence in a very big way.
I kind of need to stay home. I love doing
this podcast, getting to talk to my friends, getting to
(39:31):
talk to new people, things that interest me, topics that
are hard, and I get to do it at my
house like this. It's like the perfect, the perfect thing
for me. So what I'm doing I love, as you said,
and this is what I'm doing now, and I want
to thank you for coming on it too, honey.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Thank you absolutely. You know when you asked me to
do this, and you asked me right after you read
the book, You've got to come on yet.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Now. I love the book, honey, and.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I'm grateful, and I love you so much. I really listen.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I did back. We go back to the very beginning
of our careers, and you know what, let's do the
end of our careers as Bestie's juke, because I would
guarantee you. I promise, all right, honey, I love you
so much. The substance of all things is the book
that you can get someone you love for Christmas. They
will fall in love with it. And thank you and
I love you. I love Danny, I love Cooper. And
(40:21):
we'll see each other after this New Year's what. I
love you, Thank you, Sam Harris. We'll be back with
more after this. Oh geez, I love that guy. I
(40:42):
really do. Okay, listen. So we're not going to do
any questions today because when we come back from our
holiday break on January sixteenth, the entire show will be
me answering or listening to you and your comments and questions.
It's one of my favorite parts of Onward. I never
get to see the questions before I hear them live,
(41:03):
and we sometimes feel like I wish we had more
time to do more questions. So we're doing a whole
show with your voice memos. We'll play some of the
old ones we never got to and some new ones
that you guys are about to send in. Send in
your questions and comments, please, please, if you can keep
them under two minutes, it would be really easy for
(41:23):
our editor because we hate cutting it out. We want
to keep it succinct and not edit what you guys
want to talk about. Send me a voice memo, send
it to Onward Rosie at gmail dot com. And before
I go, I wanted to thank everybody for being so
supportive in this adventure. You know, I said Onward, you said, okay,
(41:45):
let's and here we are. It means the world to
me to be with you guys while we stumble through
this wacky and sometimes way too dark universe together knowing
we have each other's backs. However, we can, especially if
we listen to each other and work together to protet
humanity with love and acceptance. And it's a requirement, right
it should be. I wish nothing but the best for you,
(42:08):
your family's health, happiness and peace. Merry Christmas, happy Kwansa,
happy Holidays, happy Hanukkah that already passed, celebrate it all
and have a wonderful, happy, safe New Year's. I will
see you in twenty twenty four. Until then, this is me,
Rosie O'Donnell on. Onward, peace Out,
Well, hey everybody, it is me Rosie o'donald Starr of
the Flintstones. I have to say, lots going on in
my life right now, so many issues involving rodents, I
mean squirrels. They are in the rodent family, and everybody
tells me that in my little messages on my social media.
But what I did was, I thought, you know, let
(00:33):
me get a bird feeder that takes pictures of the
birds and put it where the squirrels can reach it,
and I can get all these photos of you know,
because I have a hard time holding the phone and
getting the right angle while i'm doing you know. It's
so I thought this would solve my problem. But you
know what, it ruined everything. It really did, because first
(00:54):
of all, they don't they stopped having interest in me.
Here I was imagining that I really meant something to them,
that I am like a member of their universe, and reality, no,
they just want the nuts. They don't care about me,
you know. So I would go sit in the one
seat that I sat in when I was training them,
and they would come and look at me and then
run up to the squirrel feeder like screw you, o'donald.
(01:17):
You know. I was like, this cannot be happening, you know,
so I took down the bird feeder. I took it down.
I might put it up in the tree and get
pictures of the birds, and maybe that will be fine.
But I just feel as though it really caused tremendous
damage in my neediness of them. I like when they
(01:38):
come and take it from my hand. I feel like
snow white when it's going on. I like to give
them a little scratch underneath. I like to have a
connection with my squirrels. And you know, Laurie, the producer
of this podcast, said, you know, ro You've been doing
this for over twenty five years, and it's true. When
my show ended, I had my first squirrel, Shady, and
(02:01):
now I have four more in the backyard. And I
have to say I'm a much happier person now that
they're coming up and taking it right from my hand.
So there you go. Listen, we have a wonderful show today.
I want to get right to it. How do I
begin to tell you about my guest today. He's one
of the most talented humans I know, honest to God,
and I've known him since we were both in our
(02:23):
very early twenties. His journey begins with the Grand Slam
winner of the very first season of Star Search. She
was twenty one years old and I was on the
following season and I met him and we became best
of friends. After he did Star Search and won, he
got a record contract with Motown and he did Broadway
(02:44):
shows and Tony's and Drama League Awards and People's Choice Awards,
and you know, he and legendary collaborators. He's almost from
another era in showbiz. He's best buddies with Liza Minelli.
He worked with Michael Jackson, Barack Obama. His credits are endless, endless, endless,
and you know, he is also an author. He is
(03:07):
an author of a book, The Substance of All Things,
and it is beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. He
is my friend of forty years. He has you know,
he has been there and I have been there, and
we've been through it all. We're going to catch up
(03:29):
and chat onward with me and Sam Harris right now.
Enjoy here. He is my friend, and yours Sam Harris.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
High Sweeteartwadays, how are you really good?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
There? You go? You look really good and you look
really happy. And when I saw you last, it was
such a wonderful little afternoon lunch because, uh, you know,
I miss you. I miss you and Danny and your
beautiful son who I totally fell in love with. Did
he like that hoodie?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I gave him the hoodie and I do too.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Of course you're kidding me now. We first met on
Star Search in nineteen eighty four. I was on you
were on eighty three, right, yeah, yes, And I remember
vividly watching you Sam with your toughsedo jacket and your
high tops and your adorable haircut, and your voice was
(04:34):
I don't even know how to explain it. You have
what I considered to be the Internet voice, which which means,
here's my theory. Somebody like Ariana Grande, unlike you and me,
did not grow up having to wait once a year
to see the sound of music on TV. She could
just watch it over and over and over and then
(04:55):
mimic and listen and be inspired by and but you
didn't your age, and you had a voice that that
sounded like you'd been doing it for fifty years and
had like already reached the pinnacle of a vocal excellence
on story, don't you think that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I mean, it was you know what we didn't have
We couldn't go on you know, YouTube, but we did
have records I believe in. And that's you know. I
would sing in my room all the time. And I
had a very very peculiar you know, I grew up
in the little town in Oklahoma, and I had this
very peculiar sense of I would listen to like Aretha
(05:38):
Franklin and Billie Holliday and and I listened to Edith Poff.
I mean, like, how did I know who Edith Poff was?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's what I was thinking. How did you know did
your parents listen?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, my grandmother gave me a Judy Garland at Carnegie
Hall record, which you know I played. You know what
I'm listening to this Billie Holiday, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin.
These are people who sang with their soul. They sang
with honesty. And you know, yes, if I have a gift,
(06:15):
I think it's that I tell a story. I am
a lyric guy above all, I am a lyric guy,
and so the stuff that comes out of my mouth
is influenced by the lyric. I don't do like, you know,
riffs and things for the sake of them, like they
the lyric tells you what to do, right.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
M Yeah, you were twenty one years old? Well where
did they find you? How did you?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I heard the story. I just heard this story. Steve
Stark was the talent searcher person and I was playing
in this dumby, dumpy, dumpy, little dark, nasty dive called
the Horn in Santa Monica, like the kind of place
you don't want to see the lights on, right, And
I was singing there for like twenty five dollars a set,
(07:01):
you know. And he was just looking around all these places,
and I just because I just reunited with Steve a
few weeks ago, we went to Vegas and saw Brad
Garrett and saw your brown together.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Oh my god, are you kidding?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was amazing. Anyway, So Steve tells a story about
he was looking at all these little places and he
went to a pay phone because we didn't have cell phones, right,
and he called the producer Sam Riddle. You remember saying
oh yes, and he said he held the phone out
and said, listen to this while I was singing live.
(07:35):
I never knew that. So they called me in, but
Rowe I sang for them in this they were so unorganized.
It was the first year. It was a room like
a ten by fifteen room with eight people in it
behind the table, and they didn't have enough room for
the piano. The piano was in the hall. God and
I stood in the doorway and sang, I took us off,
and they rejected me. No, like five times. I learned.
(07:59):
I thought that rejected me once. Steve told me that
they rejected me multiple times because he kept pushing and
I was too theatrical. I was too not. I think
they wanted sort of a cookie cutter pop thing. And
finally he said, I think this is gonna, you know,
get us some attention.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So now would be would in nineteen eighty three, you
would too theatrical be code words for too gay? Could
be because Sam Riddle told me that I was too
much of a tomboy to ever succeed in show business.
Did he really to my face? Yeah, he said, well,
you'll never work in show business because you're too tough
and you're too much you know, too tough was the
(08:39):
code word that he that he used. And I remember.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Feeling too theatrical.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, too theatrical?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
No, no kidding, well maybe, yeah, and also but you remember,
you know, they didn't tell us. It's not like these
talent shows now where they dress you and they meant
to you and they talk about you know, and they
give them the catalog. It was so so simple and
so row. We got to do whatever we wanted. Yes,
they you know, I mean I got to choose my
(09:07):
material when I walked in with that outfit with the
tails and the sneakness and the high tops, and they,
I mean, I got like, what right, right right? But
they didn't are you? And so I got to represent myself.
Did they? Hey? Did they? Did they look at your
material or in advance or sensor it or anything? Never?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
We had ninety seconds and the clock ticked down from
ninety seconds right in front of you on the where
the judges were, and you had to be done before
it hit zero. So, you know, I was on a
bunch of times in a row, and by the you know,
I was twenty two. And by the time I was
(09:47):
on like the fifth or sixth time, I didn't have
any material left. And I would call friends, I called
friend comedians. But we were all young, you know. So
can I use that joke about the waterbed? Can I
use that and you know, and it was unbelievably life
changing for me and I know for you too, to
be shot in the stratosphere on a show at a
(10:09):
time when they were just introducing a new network. Right,
It's almost like that show that really propelled me into
working across the country, into being a headliner instead of
an opening act. You know, it was it was life
ult it was well, look.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
At the time, I mean there were three four channels, right,
and so we had twenty five million people a week watching.
That's like, I mean, shows don't get that. Now they
get eight million. They're lucky, right and so, and people
love to root for people, and there was no other
talent shows on. Now there's twelve, right exactly. So what
(10:50):
did your family think?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Were you a kid who was encouraged because of your
talent to go and do this? Was your family supportive?
How did they react?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
They were very supportive growing up, And you know, it
was a double edged sword because it was like supporting
my talent, but it was like, but my father was
He actually said to me that I needed to change
by the time I was thirteen. It was like I
was to a sissy. He actually used those words, Oh, sorry,
(11:26):
and you know, we all go through it, but they
were supportive in that. My mom, you know, it was
right by Tulsa, which was the biggest town, nearest city,
and so she took me to auditions when I was ten.
You know, they they did as much as was available, right,
But it was always with this a little but not
(11:47):
for my mom, but with my dad a little, with
a little sort of caveat, with a little warning, you know.
I remember once I was in the we were in
the car, my dad and I. We were playing the
radio and it was like whatever Aretha singing? Respect And
he turned to me and he said, why do you
have to sing in the same octave? And I said,
because I can't.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes, yes, but how great. I don't think my father
would have known octaves or you know, bunch lines or
anything show bins related.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, my dad was a band director, a high school band.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Roh how about that?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And my mom was, you know, she was like an
actress in high school. And we were talking about this
the other day, about laying on the floor in the
living room on the gold shag carpet and her reading
poetry to me.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, And when I was in a play, she would
want to cue me, right, she would want to when
I was memorized in my life except Roe, she would
read all the other parts even if I wasn't in
the scene. She would.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Mom, I'm not on this page, doesn't matter, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, it was a little bit like that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
We'll be right back with more of Sam Harris. Now,
(13:23):
when did you were you worried at that time about
like about gayness or being gay or people finding out
where you? Did you know you were gay that young?
Did you eat ten? No? No? When you were on
Star Search, like twenty one years old?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Oh? God, yes? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
In fact, because I left home when I was fifteen,
Oh I did not. I'd gone away for the summer
to do like a to do opry Land, and we
lied about my age because I was only fifteen and
my seat this is the thing my parents I called
my son is fifteen. I would never I can't imagine
letting my child just go and work and live somewhere
else at fifteen. Right, they did. And I don't know
(14:01):
if it's because they didn't feel like they had a choice,
because they had to respect. I needed to find my
own tribe. I needed to find others like me. I
knew it, but of course you know, you don't you
want to change it. But I was very luck. I
fell in love when I was sixteen, good for you,
and lived with the person I was in love with
when I was sixteen and seventeen. Wow, And it was funny.
(14:24):
There were four of us in the sharing an apartment
and I didn't know. His name was Scott, Scott Pierce,
and so Jason Graw Do you remember, you know Jason
grow from Broadway stuff anyway, he was from Tulsa to
We were newsboys and gypsy when I was ten anyway,
so he was an opu Land So I knew someone.
And so he and I were roommates in one room,
(14:44):
and Scott and this other guy were roommates in the
other room. So Scott and I were in the same show,
and we were starting to fall in love. And it
was so you know, sweet and simple and beautiful. And
one day when no one was home, I moved all
of Scott's stuff into my room and I moved all
of jason stuff into the other room. It was never mentioned.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Oh my god, I love it, but.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I loved him, and it was the first time I
fell in love. And then when I came back for
this interim before I went back again, I left home
for good, I became very, very depressed. And it wasn't
so much it wasn't as much guilt about being gay
as it was that I had experienced love. And I thought,
(15:32):
in that climate of that time, that I would never
have it again, that I wouldn't be it wouldn't be possible.
The idea of marriage Jesus Christ, now give a child, Yeah, possible.
And so my depression was and I will never have this.
And I tried to take my own life, oh baby,
And obviously I was not successful.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Thank God. The only thing you're not successful at is that.
So that's good, it's good.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Hard.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Well, you've had such a career, honey, you've had such
a career, But you tried to take your life. Did
your parents know? Was it a big thing? A hospitalization?
Was it?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
No? They didn't know. Well what happened. I took I
got pills from this kid at school second all, and
I took like twenty or thirty or whatever. He gave
me a little sandwich baggy and then my brother my
parents were out for the night. My brother stepped on
my grandmother's darning needle and it broke off in his
foot and he was screaming, and I was the only
(16:31):
person to help him, and I went and threw up
and threw up and helped him, and then neighbors came over,
and then I drank a pot of coffee. And they
hadn't been in my system long enough to completely take effect,
but it was like a godsend. It was like a protection.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Somebody was protecting you something, yes, something big.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And by the way, not to bring this down, but
just to touch on it. That little baby boy, that
little baby brother died a few weeks ago, only fifty
seven from what from what? From congestive heart failure, but
a very troubled soul, but ultimately the essence of him.
(17:14):
God talented. Oh my god, I think I'm talented. This
kid is like he broke, he produced, he sang, he
was amazing. And I just got back from his memorial
with my mom and it was a I don't want
to stay too long on this, but there ain't nothing
like a sibling. Baby.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yes you know, yes, you know. My oldest brother Eddie
went through that three years ago and we almost lost
him and he was in a coma. They put him
in a coma and no, oh but he now he
has an el vat. You know what that is, a
pump in your.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Body, and my brother wouldn't get it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Well, he got it, and he has it and he's
you know, doing well, and supposedly he's going to get
a heart transplant at sixty three. And yeah, but I
never have felt the dread and panic of the concept
of losing him. I couldn't. I couldn't get stable or
(18:10):
you know, around around that topic. I was beside myself.
So I we don't. We can leave it because it's
too heavy.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, it's too exactly talk about it.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
First of all, I finished and loved your book, Sam Harris.
You are such a good writer. You are such a
good I read this book and I was like, this
is a movie. I can see this in my mind.
It read like some kind of famous, successful novelist who
(18:45):
who threw these out like John Irving, just throw another
one out, like you know, Pat Conroy, right, And my god, honey,
I was blown away the substance of all things. How
did this book come about? Was it delivered to you
like a song is to an artist? Because it feels
like you were channeling something.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, first of all, thank you, and you were texting
me as you were going through it, and it meant
so much to me that you were so moved by it.
After I wrote my first book, which was a memoir
ham Yes, which then became a show, which then became
a TV thing, I went through a writer's block and
I don't do I mean, I kind of like, Okay,
(19:32):
I'm assigned to do something, I have to do something,
and I just it just this. I didn't know what
to write because my editor, my publishers Simon and Schuster, said,
we don't want you to write another sort of David
SADARISI kind of thing, essays and stuff. We want you
to write fiction. You have the chops. We want you
to write fiction. I was dead. I couldn't. I had
(19:55):
no concept of that. It sounds so large writing fiction,
and so I could get past it. And actually Danny
and I were at for you listen as Danny as
my husband and write some friend's house. Yes he is
Doug and Paula's. And I was telling my friend Doug.
He said, well, you don't normally you just kind of
(20:16):
go and I said, I can't get attached to anything.
And he looked at me and he said, Okay, let's talk.
And he started talking about my childhood and in Oklahoma
and growing up and different things and this there's an
essence of autobiographical stuff in this. I don't want to
I don't really want to touch on it. But what
it did was inspired me to start thinking about this
(20:38):
time of my life. And I said, do you have
a legal pad in the bed and so for instead
of spending the evening with our friends, I sat in
a corner and started writing notes. And then it was
kind of like what you said, It just started kind
of coming, and thankfully I typed very fast, and sometimes
I didn't know what was going to happen until it happened,
(21:00):
and I didn't know what they were going to say
until they said it. I had a broad view of it.
But then, as you know, it's in two parts. It's current, yes,
where it's the adult. THEO is the protagonist who's a therapist,
and it looks back on his life as a twelve
year old boy in rural Oklahoma in nineteen sixty nine.
(21:20):
And I only wrote the old the first one, the
boy book first, and then my editor said what happens
to THEO. Mike, what do you mean? He said, what
happens to him?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And then I started thinking and then I wrote the
whole second part and it just kind of came together.
It was I write fast and I edit slow.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Got it, you know? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
But thank you, thank you. This book means it's my finest,
the most proudest work of anything I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Listen, see it blew me away, Sam, It blew me away.
I was unprepared. I did not see you at all
in the book. I didn't think that there was auto.
I was transfixed by these characters with deformed hands and
and the scary man in the house, and like, I
was completely enthralled in this book, and I found I found,
(22:15):
I was like, I was stunned. What are you going
to do with it? Please tell me you're making it
into something. Are you allowed to talk about this part?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm not allowed to be specifics okay, but I can't
tell you that it is in development for a film.
First it was brought to me or said to me,
this is a mini series, okay, like a limited a
limited series. And so I wrote it. I wrote it
in five parts in five hours. I'm not five yeah,
five out. I didn't write it in five hours, right,
(22:46):
come on now, mister. And so when that was done,
then I took it to this uh this studio guy
and he read the first two episodes and said, I
was wrong. This is a feature. Well that's what I
preferred anyway. But if I hadn't gone through the process
(23:06):
of editing a four hundred something page book into five hours,
I never would have been able to bring it down.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
To two right, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So it really was a part of that, and that's hard.
You have to get rid of You have to get
rid of things that aren't essential. And I wrote him
once and I'm like, there is a trailer behind me
of blood.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, yeah, yeah, but you have to do that now. Now,
are you the only writer or do they you're the
writer of the screenplay?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I am. And I didn't want to do it really
because I'm at an age where I'm at an age
where I'm like, you know what, I don't really want
to wear all the hats. I don't need to do it.
I want somebody better than me. I want somebody who's
going to bring things to it that I can't possibly
that can see from the outside, I adamantly didn't want
to do well. They said you're the only person can
(24:02):
write it, and I did. I was reticent, and then
I got demogan. I had nothing to do, so I
wrote the So so I wrote it. And the next
steps is now we're in development. Uh, there are directors
in mind, there are some casting things in mind that
you and I have shared.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Which is wonderful. Every choice is wonderful, every choice, Thank you, honey.
And I wish you nothing but the best with that,
I really do I I I think it's gonna again
launch you into a different career path than you've had
up till now. You've you've done so many things, honey,
Broadway shows, movies, musicals, like you've done so many things,
(24:43):
and that you also have this in you is astounding,
it really is. Now, where about me? Where about the
same age you and May and we are? And why
one year? Come on?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Now do you think about what you want for this
final third chapter of our lives? You know thirty to sixties,
you know thirty one to thirty, thirty to sixty, and
now on what do you want?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I noticed you. I noticed you don't say thirty or
whatever it's to thirty, thirty to sixty and sixty to ninety.
You didn't say that, You just said sixty on.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, because I can't imagine living to ninety. I can't imagine.
Oh right, you know the O'donnald's. They don't survive that
long usually, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You never know you're a survivor.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
When my son was born in two thousand and eight,
I knew. I made the choice not to be on
the road and concert. We were living in Los Angeles.
I made the choice not to go to New York
to do Broadway show because it would up end my family.
And you know, with a Broadway show, you don't know
if it's going to close in two weeks. Correct, And
so I made a choice. And that's how the first
(25:53):
book came about. Because I could be here, I could
be a parent, and I could and you know, I mean,
I've sacrificed some things for myself, but certainly not regrettably.
So you talk about this third chapter. I love I
will always sing, of course, I will always sing. But
(26:15):
I love writing. I love you talking about this chapter
with the writing. I love writing, I love directing, and
so as much as I and I love acting, you know,
I love being you know what's funny, and I think
you're exactly the same way. Whatever I'm doing is what I.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love the most, exactly at the moment, correct.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
You know, whatever I'm doing is like, oh, this is
what I this is what I want to do. Because
if I was doing a new show, which I would
love to now Cooper's fifteen and what I do at
Broadway show, now, yeah, I'll schlep them over and we'll
figure it out. And if that's what I was doing,
then that would be all I want to do. But
looking outside of that love, I love the process of writing, yeah, creating.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And the book again is the Substance of All Things.
You can get it at Amazon or if there is
a bookstore in your town you're lucky, go to it,
support it. If not, you know, click your way to
this beautiful, beautiful book, The Substance of All Things by
Sam Harris. So more with Sam Harris after this. I
(27:47):
love the way you do family, Sam. You do family
in a beautifully consistent way, prioritizing all three of you
and the friends that you hold dear like family. And
it's admirable and you you've done a lot to protect it.
(28:10):
And it's very uh touching to me to see how
committed you are to being a present parent and partner.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Thank you especially from you, because you are above all
family and you always have been. Yeah, and I remember
when your first babies came yes, and you keep getting
new ones.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I know, and now at almost sixty two. I got
a call the other day and the guy was like,
do you know anybody? And I'm like, please, don't, don't
call me and ask me this. It's too tempting, it's
too like even though I know that's what every single
friend and therapist says, don't you dam But now with
(28:57):
little Clay, I have my hands full, you know, in
a way that I never did before.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, but now you're ready for it. I don't know
that you would have been ready for this prior to this,
and it's confusing. And Clay is extraordinary. And they are
smart and funny and creative and complicated, complicated and complicated.
(29:26):
But you know what comes with you know, like my
parents have me when they were you know, in their
early early early twenties. And the great thing about that
age when you have kids is you have all this energy.
But the great thing about our age is you know
how to utilize less energy to be more effective. Yes,
and we have that life experience, and in your case,
(29:48):
particularly that parent experience. You know they're going to be okay.
You go step by step, day by day, and you
do it beautifully. When I watch you with them, it's remarkable.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, you know, and I it's it's something that you know,
my shrink said that, you know the death of your
mother you're still trying to recover from by mothering. You
just keep mothering because you never got to do that
story as the way you wanted it. And I have
to tell you that this January they turn eleven. And
(30:22):
I was so worried that during her tenth year I
was going to die, like happened to me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Oh honey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So I'm so happy to get to January seventh because
I know it's like, okay, we're out of that danger
zone now, God knows. You know, that's magical thinking. But
it was hard for me. It was hard for me
to you know, and that's why I moved to Malibu
and took care myself in a different way and got
a chef, and you know, I want to commit myself
(30:52):
to being here for her, you know, for them.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Isn't it easier? Yes, isn't it easier? Times? And I
know it's not supposed to be this way, Well, I
guess it is. It's easier to do it for someone else,
particularly our children, because you experienced that at ten years old,
and you want to be around as long as you
can be and healthy and present. Yes, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
My mother is eighty five. I moved her from Oklahoma.
I shouldn't say I moved her. It was all of
her own volition. My father died four years ago. We
kind of thought that she was going to spring from that,
but then COVID happened. Then her best friend died from COVID,
and then she was sequestered. And so now she said,
I want to move here. And I was so grateful
(31:42):
because I realized that since I was sixteen years old,
I've never spent more than two weeks a year with
her because of holiday you know what I mean. Now
I get her full time. But having lost my brother,
and it doesn't matter how old you are, how old
the child is, it is. It is something beyond my
understanding of grief. Yes, a parent losing their child, but
I see it and I watch it and I am.
(32:07):
It's our job to take care of them, but it's
our job to take care of us. We want to
be around, We want to be there for any circumstance.
And as we know, it's up and down and sideways,
and you just roll with it and you love, love, love.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And that's what you do. Really well. Cooper is adored
and it's obvious. He is a secure, handsome, tall, you know, strapping, strapping,
young athletic boy, and he just moves with a confidence
that comes from being cherished. You know.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Well, I thank you. But you know, when he was
very little and I would sing to him, he would
put his hands over his ears. I'd be like stop,
and I would be do you do you know who
I am?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Do you have any idea?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yes? People pay, people pay to say Daddy, do this.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And it's free for you. Yeah, and you don't want it.
It was hysterical. He's not into theater at all, my kids,
he's not into my kind of my kind of music.
It's like, who where did the swat? Yeah thing? They said,
nature nurture. It's totally nature with him. But you know, he,
like you said, he's totally six to one yeah, and
(33:20):
a couple of times ro he has puff gotten up
close to me in my face, had kind of puffed
up like and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Oh, buddy, you're crossing a dangerous line.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Dave, I said, you will never be bigger than me.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you know, that's his first year in therapy right there, right,
he's going to be you know what my father said
to me, you know exactly. Yeah, it's amazing. How is
it having your mom around? How do you just love
every moment of it? Is it just all you've dreamed?
Because I imagine my mother being alive, and what would we
be doing, how would it be working? You know? And
(34:00):
so I think it must be glorious.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's it is glorious. She lives ten minutes from me.
I see her almost every day. We talk several times
a day, and I am so grateful. I'm so grateful.
She's a joy, she's funny, she's smart, she fetches about everything,
and we just kind of try to find a less
She's in a retirement place, right, yeah, independent living, and
(34:27):
so she's found a network of people good. And I'm
so grateful that she came here in August and three
months into my brother dying, because she's settled. She does
have a network and I can't imagine her being in
that town because they lived in the same town San
Springs without him, yass without him and sitting in her
house alone, and then I would have had to bring
(34:48):
her here now anyway. So it is a blessing. It
is a blessing. And Roe, I will say to you,
I know that you believe this. You talk about what
would be be doing, and your mother is doing everything
with you. I know that she's in your heart. You
carry her with you, and you know, I know you're
honest about everything. But the issues with your dad and
(35:10):
all that stuff is completely your mother's relationship supersedes all
of that, right, and it's with you, and just like
my brother, we carry it on. Yes, And you know
what the other thing about being a parent is it
makes you a better person than you really want to be.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, you have to. You know, you got to show
up to them. I don't always show up for myself,
but I will show up right right.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Well, even just like modeling behavior. This morning, I was
taking into school and it's very trafficky, and he's like,
I've got finals, I've got finals today, And he's not
really he's very low key, much more low key than
Danny and me. So we're driving and there's a lot
of traffic and I'm letting people in. Yeah, lane, what
are you doing? What are you doing? And I said,
there's always time to let someone in. It's going to talk.
(35:55):
Take us ten seconds difference. Now, if he wasn't in
the car, I might be like, go on my way
by yes. Yes, but they make us be our best person.
And it's actually true that they make us be our
best person. We're not with them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Well, you know, Clay was very upset about all the
homeless people that they saw on the way to and
from school, and they're like, you know, we have to
do something. We have to do something. Every time I
see a homeless person, I say to her do you
think they need money? And they will say yes, you know,
(36:33):
or sometimes they say no, which I think is interesting.
But my giving her the chance to make a difference,
it makes a difference to her and to them, and
we don't. They don't like it, so or from either
day I'm doing it, they I'm doing the best. Second,
(36:53):
they are not very brave in public places like stores,
is a big over stimulation for them. And just last
week we were at the gas station and they wanted candy,
and I said, do you want me to give you
the money and you go in and do it yourself.
(37:13):
And they looked at me and they said, do you
know me at all? I was like, I'll come with you.
I'll come with you, I'll go together.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
You're talking about I have to do a plug for
an organization. Go because you're talking about the homeless. And
if you want to be in touch, if you live
in Los Angeles, it's called Food on Foot. And every
Sunday for the last twenty years come rainshine, hell, high water, whatever.
The homeless come and they are provided with you know,
(37:44):
food and essentials and hygiene things and stuff, and volunteers
come and give out things. They walk down with bags
and you have a one on one experience looking someone
in the face. It gives them a program to themselves settled.
They give them thousands of dollars and help fight find
(38:05):
apartments and jobs. And the people who go through this
program then become mentors for other people. Food on Foot.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Food on foot definitely. Now can anyone show come and
do with us? That's what I was going to say.
I would I would bring them with me.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Can the kid go okay? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And
here's the thing. You go on food on foot, find
it on the web, and you pay like twenty five
bucks to come and volunteer. Cooper and I go often.
It's really important. He was very scared and nervous in
the beginning. These are strangers, some of them not in
the best shape, and it has taken down some of
(38:41):
that fear of the unknown. But I do bring friends
and stuff, and so you and Clay are going to
come with me, and I assure you it will have
an effect on them.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, and you Yeah, show's face to face. You're with
people one on one, writing one check. Yes, it's a
one on one thing. I want to be on the
same playing fields as all the other humans I love
so much, you.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Know, because we ain't so spacial larm No.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We ain't, honey. And I don't even know if I
want to what you were saying at the beginning, if
I want to work now in this final third of
my of my life, like I have this little one
and they need my presence in a very big way.
I kind of need to stay home. I love doing
this podcast, getting to talk to my friends, getting to
(39:31):
talk to new people, things that interest me, topics that
are hard, and I get to do it at my
house like this. It's like the perfect, the perfect thing
for me. So what I'm doing I love, as you said,
and this is what I'm doing now, and I want
to thank you for coming on it too, honey.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Thank you absolutely. You know when you asked me to
do this, and you asked me right after you read
the book, You've got to come on yet.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Now. I love the book, honey, and.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I'm grateful, and I love you so much. I really listen.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I did back. We go back to the very beginning
of our careers, and you know what, let's do the
end of our careers as Bestie's juke, because I would
guarantee you. I promise, all right, honey, I love you
so much. The substance of all things is the book
that you can get someone you love for Christmas. They
will fall in love with it. And thank you and
I love you. I love Danny, I love Cooper. And
(40:21):
we'll see each other after this New Year's what. I
love you, Thank you, Sam Harris. We'll be back with
more after this. Oh geez, I love that guy. I
(40:42):
really do. Okay, listen. So we're not going to do
any questions today because when we come back from our
holiday break on January sixteenth, the entire show will be
me answering or listening to you and your comments and questions.
It's one of my favorite parts of Onward. I never
get to see the questions before I hear them live,
(41:03):
and we sometimes feel like I wish we had more
time to do more questions. So we're doing a whole
show with your voice memos. We'll play some of the
old ones we never got to and some new ones
that you guys are about to send in. Send in
your questions and comments, please, please, if you can keep
them under two minutes, it would be really easy for
(41:23):
our editor because we hate cutting it out. We want
to keep it succinct and not edit what you guys
want to talk about. Send me a voice memo, send
it to Onward Rosie at gmail dot com. And before
I go, I wanted to thank everybody for being so
supportive in this adventure. You know, I said Onward, you said, okay,
(41:45):
let's and here we are. It means the world to
me to be with you guys while we stumble through
this wacky and sometimes way too dark universe together knowing
we have each other's backs. However, we can, especially if
we listen to each other and work together to protet
humanity with love and acceptance. And it's a requirement, right
it should be. I wish nothing but the best for you,
(42:08):
your family's health, happiness and peace. Merry Christmas, happy Kwansa,
happy Holidays, happy Hanukkah that already passed, celebrate it all
and have a wonderful, happy, safe New Year's. I will
see you in twenty twenty four. Until then, this is me,
Rosie O'Donnell on. Onward, peace Out,
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