April 10, 2024 • 68 mins
In this final episode of season 4, Phelps interviews a suspected serial killer, who he believes could be responsible for Dana Stidham’s murder—the first time anyone has spoken to the suspect about the case in 33 years. After confronting him with the evidence, Phelps implores law enforcement to knock on the suspect’s door and interview him. A final call is made about the connection between the two murders - and who, ultimately, is to blame.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
In the last episode we heard a conversation with suspect
Jack Lney. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him.
But before continuing down that path, I needed to look
into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have
been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shauna Garber,
(00:30):
one who was active at the time in the area.
At another point in the podcast, you heard about a
witness reporting a white van parked behind Dana Stidham's car
during the early evening hours after she left Phillip's grocery.
Two men were seen standing behind or near her car
(00:51):
and that van. In January twenty twenty four, I learned
from a law enforcement source that a white van had
been connected to Shauna Garber's mind as well. It was
part of an interview solving Shawna's case after thirty plus years,
which will impact soon. That van park behind Dana's carr
(01:12):
plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high
profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall. Hall is a serial killer,
yet he's rare and that he's never been convicted of
a murder. One university study on Hall claims he could
(01:33):
be responsible for upwards of fifty or more abductions, rapes,
and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping
of fifteen year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from
Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification, The subject
of the Apple TV Plus drama Blackbird, Larry Hall was
(01:56):
arrested in October nineteen ninety four and has been in
prison ever since. With his mutton choped sideburns and backwoods
Gomer Pyle like persona, Hall spent a considerable amount of
time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling
for victims throughout the Midwest and South during the late
(02:18):
eighties and early nineties. He claimed his extensive travel was
centered around the Civil War reenactments he participated in. Hall
often traveled with a man he was very close to,
a co conspirator in many of his crimes. Larry Hall's
(02:38):
method of abduction is very similar to what we saw
in Dana Stidham's case, and, according to some new information
I've received, the kidnapping and murder of SHAWNA. Garber. Hall
often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following
women riding bikes, jogging, or walking, then grabbing them just
(03:00):
the right moment. A young woman alone with her car
broken down on the side of the road would have
been Hall's ideal situation to strike. Detective Lorie Howard, who
you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years
ago at Buckner Federal Prison in North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I went and talked with Larry Hall, and I actually
was worried when I talked to him that he might
say that I did this just because he really wanted
to please me. You know, I knew when I went
in there he probably wanted me to stay, and I
knew that he wanted to talk, so I was kind
(03:42):
of concerned that he would do just the opposite of
what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah,
it's she's mine, and I was concerned about that. What
actually happened is I slid Seans photo across the table
to him, and he immediately looked at it and he said,
she's not mine. Said did you kill her? And he said, no,
(04:05):
she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was
concerned that that's not what I would get. So I
knew immediately that Shawna was not his.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative,
and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's
been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective
Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham, considering how the circumstances fit,
especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around,
(04:40):
potentially Hall and his partner. It can also not be
overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site,
is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall,
for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction
and or or murder and said he was not even
(05:02):
in per Ridge near the time she disappeared. And did
you believe him?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Oh? Yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for
being a false confessionist, if you will, although I don't
believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination,
but he has that label.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The thing that nagged at me about Larry Hall and
Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner
close to him, a guy very close to him, and
he also drove around in a van. The cliche and
two guys who could fit Larry's description and as partner
(05:45):
were seen in back of Dana along with a van
on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So
what did he say about Dana Stidham's case.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
He wasn't anywhere around during that timeframe, he said, I
wasn't there. There wasn't a re enactment. I actually checked
all of that, so there was no reason to put
him in the area at that time frame.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry Hall and
delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing
the Line with m William Phelps, in a two part
special outlining the monster Larry Hall truly is. You see.
Hall had a pension for young girls, kids really and
(06:30):
he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his
home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can
hear in this excerpt from that interview, he also groomed
some of his victims.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
My friend Steve brought her with him a couple of
times in the car. She was a friend of mine.
The Steve's a friend mine named Steve knew her. She
was only twelve years old. She was missing too. He
was a little a little bit older than me. I
met him at a little shopping mall down there by
(07:09):
eleven in Indiana where the there's a bus. The bus
has come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple
of times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing.
I used to hang out with him in a little
park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I
didn't know the last name, but Dabby, I believe that
(07:32):
I'm not potty. I can't can't probably remember.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
The guy loved to play the ignorant card. But believe me,
he knew and he remembered all.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Of his victims.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why
they sometimes take trophies, a little reminder of each and
every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing Hall,
he brought up another unsolf case, a big one.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me,
but I did kill the Springfield three.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
On June seventh, nineteen ninety two, the parents of eighteen
year old Stacy McCall contacted the Springfield, Missouri Police Department,
saying their daughter had disappeared from the home a forty
seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's
nineteen year old daughter, Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the
(08:36):
Leavitt house showed no signs a foced entry or a struggle,
but the three young women were gone, as if plucked
out of their lives in the middle of a normal day.
All their personal property had been left behind, purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes,
(08:58):
even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And that I had reason to believe there might be
some validity to and I say that knowing that it's
not my case beyond what he told me. But I
know in his van there was evidence that had a
map that had this area that had Branson that had
(09:24):
an X on it. I know there was evidence to
coroborate that, and there was a reenactment for those particular murders,
but there wasn't anything in the van. It would include
Dana or Shawna.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Larry Dwayne Hall is evil incarnate, but I don't think
the evidence supports him being the evil I have been
chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry Hall has never
faced murder charges is because, as horrible as it sounds
the guy was able to hide the bodies of his
(09:59):
victims very well, and as you know, neither Dana or
Shauna were really hidden. With all this sevenance in hand,
I could confidently exclude Larry Hall as their killer and
continued down the road of Jack Lenny. Previously on Paper.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Ghosts, it seems to check all the boxes for a
sexual predator going into the store with a hood on
their face, standing behind the women, poggling them, making circles
around the store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for them
in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway,
trying to pull them over, in some cases, groping them.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
I just remember being in the basement of this individual's
house and there had to been like over one hundred
schools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who
keeps chords. I don't keep chords, but it just was
pretty ominous.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them
were impossible. It was impossible to have this self trying,
but that's gonna be solved, and it will be.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
My name is Emma William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
and author of more than forty true crime books. This
is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. In getting
(11:34):
Jack Lenny on the phone, I saw an opportunity, maybe
the only one I would get. Go at him hard.
I told myself, hold nothing back, put the evidence from
Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table, and see how
he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout
(11:56):
the podcast, who I might add, has built a wrong
case against Lenny over the course of many years and
helped me more than I can express here. I flipped
back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering
if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to LENNI was nothing
more than a series of coincidences and an overactive sense
(12:19):
of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have
to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence, And
I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as
a suspect in nineteen ninety five and never spoke to
or pursued him again. Talking to Lenny, however, began to
(12:44):
change my mind, and it's hard not to take what
happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward,
as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body
of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to
go back to that phone call you heard at the
(13:04):
end of the last episode and pick up where we
left off. So you have nothing to do with Dana
Stidham's murder?
Speaker 7 (13:13):
Hell no?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Did you know Danas Stidham?
Speaker 7 (13:17):
Hell no?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
There's the other case in Pineville, gray Stowe, Seana Garber murder.
What about her case? Any connection to her death?
Speaker 7 (13:28):
Hell no.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it an emphatic
how dare you sense of denial? At least at the
outset of our conversation. You were interviewed a few times
and brought in, and they searched your place and came
after you pretty damn hard? Am I right?
Speaker 7 (13:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Why was that? You think I have no worth?
Speaker 7 (13:56):
Idea? They were? They were hunting for someone first.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source,
especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am
not a cop, clearly, and I do not solve murders.
My aim always is to develop new information and try
to help families find answers. Then I hand that information
(14:24):
off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was
never going to like me, and I could not have
cared less so I could use that personal disdain to
my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what
you want in situations like these. Did you kill Dana Stidham?
Speaker 7 (14:48):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I think?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I don't know, which is why I'm asking either. His
answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not
just say hell no again? Why the games? Why not say, look,
you have the wrong dude, I didn't do anything. How
can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone?
(15:14):
After all, he knew I was recording the call. Now
if I might ask the Sheriff's office seemed to think
that you might have actually known Dana's Stidham. Why well,
I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that
(15:34):
claim you hung around the Phillips grocery and that you
knew Dana Stidam.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana?
She worked at the store.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I have a problem with this. Are you certain you
didn't know her?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Going back to his second interview with BCSO detectives Varner
and Sidor react, Lenny was the one who brought Dana
up and knew exactly who she was. But why would
they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at
least know her or run into her at the store?
Speaker 7 (16:13):
I mean, because they were looking for an escapegoat. I
thought I would be the one because I was all
over the.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Stre Okay, So you worked construction or something like that,
and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at
the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Hello,
This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue
(16:44):
until something extremely bizarre happened. No, so you didn't work
in the area, yes, but not then that's not true,
wasn't it In nineteen eighty nine, nineteen nine? You were
working in and around Bella Vista.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
You're correct?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, So you're saying that you had nothing to do
with Dana's abduction and murder. Then is that your statement?
Is that your response? You don't know who killed her?
Speaker 7 (17:19):
Not done, I don't know where she was killed.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
For a guy who had started out our phone call
by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder. I began
to understand that his temperament wouldn't allow him to walk
away without explaining himself. The reports, your interviews with the
Benton County Sheriff's Office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle,
(17:43):
the cables and bindings found in your house. You were
at the Phillips a lot in fact, on the day
she went missing, and you were reported as possibly talking
to Dana in the parking lot. I got to ask, again,
did you know Dana? What from? I have no earthly
idea to knowing her someone, and then she's later found murdered.
(18:08):
I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy.
I'm just trying to explain all of these coincidences lining
up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day
she went missing? No, so this is all coincidental, then circumstance,
you had nothing to do with danas Didham's murder.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Are you sure about that, because the evidence says otherwise.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
As much to do murder as you did. Did you
have anything to do with their murder?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere
mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction, especially when
I began to touch on the evidence, and yet he
would not hang up on me. I live on the
East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity, but you did, sir.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
All right, Africa, Well, let's.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have
some trouble while there, while you were in the service
with a sex worker? What happened there?
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I remember, I got a miss understanding.
Speaker 8 (19:26):
I a long trouble down there with a misunderstanding some
no one, no one of the president, Kevin annoyed.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Empower a misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke
to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the
Panama allegations, and he told me Lenny beat a sex
worker while stationed in Panama. A little more than a misunderstanding.
I mean, you were accused of beating girl.
Speaker 8 (20:00):
I thought you just wanted to know about Dais still
or whatever. But you covered them all when I told
you I had nothing.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
To do with it.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Are you absolutely certain about that?
Speaker 7 (20:12):
I guess I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
But you were there on the day she went missing
at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear.
Speaker 7 (20:19):
It has been so long ago. I don't even think
about it.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips
that day. Why would people place you there?
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Then?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
What is the evidence backing you up when others say different?
My word, your ward alone. Could you talk to me
about July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, what you did
on that day?
Speaker 8 (20:43):
I could I remember them?
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So the Sheriff's office came after you and questioned you
hard to tell you that all these women at the
grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment, following women on
the way out, following them in your card. He does
not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of.
(21:09):
I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation,
placing Lenny at the crime scene. I wanted to get
him to say he knew where it was because I
knew he did. What about Beal Lane, the crime scene
up there by Ozark Beverage where Dana was found. Do
you know where that is?
Speaker 7 (21:30):
Oh? What you mean?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
You don't know that area?
Speaker 7 (21:36):
Really?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Remember what he says there? It'll come back into play
later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation,
something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention
of the crime scene, I realized struck a nerve. I'd
found an area of inquiry that rattled him. Are you
(22:05):
still there?
Speaker 7 (22:08):
Are you still there?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm here? Are you all right? You're feeling okay? Do
you remember that time.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
I forgot about?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never
been up to be elane.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
I told you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No again, Remember what he says for a second time. No,
he'd never been up to be a lane. Not where
is it? Or I don't know where that area of
town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become
very important when we look at what happens the day
(22:50):
after I speak to Lenny. Lots of people say different.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
I don't think wherever they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by
the Sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating
things about you, like you were acting strange around the
time Dana went missing, and around that time when she
was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once
(23:21):
when her case was mentioned on TV. How do we
explain that you there?
Speaker 7 (23:32):
Thanks for that mass the divorce she was scared of you.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That's what I believe. What kind of person was your
ex wife? He describes her by using an insulting racial slur,
which I will not allow in this show. So I
changed course. You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing
Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you
(24:02):
might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her,
which is it? No, according to the reports, you were
well aware of this case as it was happening. After
they questioned you a second time, they asked you to
take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around
you for a time there. They were really hot on you.
(24:25):
You know this. They came at you hard. Did you
kill Danas Stidham? You there, speak to me? He doesn't
say anything for about two minutes.
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Then you got all the information. Well why did you
ask me if you already knew? Uh? Stupid, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk.
Speaker 7 (24:59):
To me, understandfory too.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the
interview as part of the podcast, so I put it
out there again. Well, I'm recording this from my podcast
paper Ghosts.
Speaker 7 (25:16):
I don't care you.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Kill that girl?
Speaker 7 (25:21):
Didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
It's important at this stage to go back to Shauna
Garber's case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar
caller who was later allegedly identified as Jack Lenny, threatened
to cut off the breasts of the woman on the
other end of the phone. In early twenty twenty four,
law enforcement revealed to me that Shauna Garber's killer cut
(25:47):
her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with
a hot shot an intentional forced overdose of heroin. No
knowledge of what happened to Shanna Garber. Shauna Garber, No,
(26:07):
I don't know. You never picked her up, hitch hiking,
No murder, She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered. Her body
dumped on Oscar Tally Road in Pineville Anderson, Missouri. You're
familiar with that area. Oh, several minutes went by with
(26:30):
nothing but heavy breathing. Did you kill Shauna Garber?
Speaker 7 (26:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I got a sense he was beginning to feel the
weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly
worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had
been thirty one year since law enforcement spoke to Lenny. Here.
Now three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a
panic attack. Essentially at the mere mention of these cases,
(27:12):
You're okay, this interview bothering you. And then as things escalate,
with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible, something in fact,
(27:33):
you've heard him do before, when the murders of two
young women were put right in his face. When we
are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut.
(27:54):
It's simple physiology. We've all been there, uncomfortable situationations, and
dare I say feelings of guilt can exacerbate a condition
known as stress nausea. We've been down this road before.
Within the investigation into Jack Linny, remember that back in
(28:15):
nineteen ninety three, his ex wife told detective Danny Varner
that when Dana's case came on television one night, Lenny vomited.
As my conversation with Lenny continued, I could feel the
stress coming from the other end of the line. The
heavy breathing, odd silences, groaning noises, the fact that he
(28:39):
did not hang up on me. It all said something
about his disposition, personality, and attitude toward the murders of
Dana Stidham and Seanna Garber. Is this upsetting to you
to talk about. No, so there's no way you had
(28:59):
anything to do with Dana Didham's murder. All right, About
three minutes went by. He remained silent, but every once
(29:22):
in a while he'd let me know he was still
willing to talk. Still there, Yeah, you're doing all right there.
This thing bringing up a lot of old feeling.
Speaker 7 (29:37):
I was sick.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
There. It was the conversation had made him ill, not
the flu or a cold. Talking about this was making
Jack Lenny sick to his stomach. I did stop over
there at your house when I was in Arkansas over
the summer, but you weren't around, knocked on the door there,
(30:06):
So well, just letting you know, you know, just conversation.
There's no evidence that can tie you to Dana's murder.
Is that what you're saying? I just want to get
it straight with your You know what you're telling me.
(30:27):
Is there anything you'd like to say to her family?
Her mother just passed away?
Speaker 7 (30:34):
Showed your mind.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Notice he doesn't say sorry to hear that, or show
any sympathy whatsoever. Instead, he takes the narcissistic route and
makes it about himself. I'm sorry to hear that. There's
some people in law enforcement think you might be a
serial killer. What do you think of that? I don't
(31:00):
you think they'll ever find the person who killed Danas Didham?
You think the person is still alive. He had nothing
to do with her abduction.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Only time you have to tray it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And you you've never been to Pineville, Missouri? Frequent in
that area? Oscar Tally Road? What Oscar Tally Road in
Pineville Anderson, Missouri?
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Not true, he told the BCSO he used to pass
by the area all the time when he lived in Missouri.
I was curious about a phone call. I have a
report of a girl who took a phone call. It's
a very vile phone call about a man who called
and said all sorts of disgusting sexual things. And then
(31:59):
they brought her in and they played her the tape
of your interview and six other guys, and she picked
you out of that lineup. Do you remember making that call?
That wasn't you? Do you want me to stop by
there next time I'm in the area and have a
(32:21):
chat with you in person?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Are you done talking about this? Is there anything you'd
like to say? Five minutes went by without a response,
but I could hear him. He was nauseous and whimpering,
and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's
doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the
(32:53):
biggest reaction. Just how big I was about to learn.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Mm hmmm, you are right, mhm, m hmm.
Speaker 9 (33:30):
You okay, mhmm.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
This subject seems to be upsetting to you.
Speaker 9 (33:59):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
He was vomiting, but the guy still wouldn't hang up
on me. He blew his nose, threw up some more,
breathed heavily, but he stayed on the line, and he
had literally brought the phone with him into the bathroom.
Should we say goodbye now? Anything else you want to say?
This seems very upsetting to you. I'm gonna say goodbye now.
(34:28):
I'm not getting any response from you. Is there anything
you want to talk about? You have my number. I
hung up after about ten minutes of listening to him
breathing and trying to figure out his next move. And look,
at this point, I certainly have not proven he had
anything to do with either murder. The pressure I applied
(34:50):
during this call might seem aggressive, but he has harassed
women all his life. The fact that I gave it
back to this bully in a small way. Tough shit.
You want to taunt women, abuse women, harass them and
foul them, and stalk them and intimidate them. I Am
(35:11):
not going to hold back. This would not be the
last time I confronted Jack Lenny. After the call, I
contacted the BCSO and let them know what had gone down.
Then I called Detective Laurie Howard and explained ending by saying, this, look,
(35:31):
he's on the ropes. You had better get a few
investigators over there, like tomorrow to interview him. Laurie Howard,
along with Detective Ronda Wise and an observer, knocked on
Lenny's door the following day, and you know what a
difference twenty four hours can make. I obtained a recording
(35:59):
of the interview Laurie Howard conducted with Jack Lenny the
day after I spoke to him. However, because Lenny did
not consent to me using it as he had from
my calls with him, I need to summarize, so.
Speaker 10 (36:12):
I need to know if I can pick your brain.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'm here to talk about a gal by the name
of Shawn at Barber. I'm hoping you can help me go.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Back because I'm After introducing herself, Detective Howard mentioned Shauna Garber,
which was her doorway into what Lenny had to say
about Dana. Lenny used the word scapegoat yet again. What's
important is that he sounds different. He's laughing and joking,
being a smart ass, almost gloating when he talks to Laurie.
(36:45):
Laurie asks him, if you didn't know Shauna or Dana,
why did the BCSO just randomly pick you to drag
in for an interview. He says, quote, I was at
the Phillips grocery store a lot. Laurie then tells Lenny
the BCSO has his DNA, which he interprets as a
(37:07):
sample he gave them back in the day. She clarified
by saying she believed that they had found his DNA
on Dana. He shrugged off the statement. He then mentioned
that I had called him the day before, referring to
me as a joker. Here's Laurie explaining her interaction with
(37:30):
Lenny on that day and several days after the visit,
when he began calling her.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Incessantly, and then he just reminds me that he is
a killer, and he never once told me that he
wasn't a killer, and so you know, I basically reprimanded
him and said, well, you know, essentially, I don't hear
you're a killer if you're not going to go into
detail and tell me about that. So he switches gears,
and I think it's probably in an effort to regain
(37:55):
some power or control. So he tells me, you know,
I'm a millionaire, and he said, why haven't you been
back to see me? And I said, well, basically, i've
been in touch with you, or better yet, you've been
in touch with me, and you still don't have anything
that I need. And so he said, are you at home?
And I said yes, and he said are you by yourself?
(38:18):
And I lied and I said no and he said, well,
I only kill people that are by themselves. And I said,
so if I was by myself, essentially you're telling me
that you I would be a good candidate. And he said,
I just asked if you were home and alone.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
At his house that day, Laurie asked Lenny what he
would do if the BCSO showed up at his door
with an arrest warrant. Lenny said, quote, if they try
to get in, I've got a thirty eight fully loaded
that I sleep with now. If you recall, he had
told me he had no idea where Dana was found,
(38:59):
but it was when I started talking about the crime scene,
the one he allegedly had no idea of, that made
him physically ill. A day later, talking to Detective Laurie Howard,
he explained exactly where Dana was found, admitted to being
out there, and even mentioned how badly her corpse smelled,
(39:21):
referring to the smell of decomposition as sickening. And the
reason for his DNA possibly being at the scene, which
Laurie had floated, he said, would be because he urinated
in the woods near where Dana's body was found. As
they discussed the crime scene, Laurie asked why he didn't
(39:43):
tell anyone from the bcso he had been out to
the scene and saw Dana's body, which would have explained
why they had his DNA. He said he didn't want
to get involved. Days later, during one of more than
ten phone calls Laurie received from Lenny, he says to her.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I'm not afraid to give answers. He said, I'm going
to die, and I said, well, before you die, why
don't you tell me what you know I want to hear.
And he said, I know you've worked hard, and I said,
I have worked hard. I've dedicated my entire life to
this kind of thing. I would really would like to
wrap this up. You know, these these girls are deserving.
(40:24):
And he said, I know I'm not afraid to die
and I'm not afraid to talk. And I said, well,
apparently you are. And he kind of got snippy with
me a little bit. You know, well, I'm giving you
answers and I said, you're not giving me answers. So
we went back and forth with that just a little bit,
and I said, I'm going to go, but if you
(40:45):
want me to come talk to you, and you want
me to come see you, or you want to continue
to call me, then it's not good enough that you're
just telling me you killed somebody. He also told me
that the same person who killed Dana killed my girl.
He referred to Sean my girl. He wants to tell
you he's a killer. He wants to tell you he'll
kill you. He point blank said it to me. If
(41:06):
you're by yourself, I would be there. I would kill you.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The big takeaway from the conversations Laurie Howard had with
Lenny was that he admitted to being at the crime
scene while Dana's body was out in the woods, but
only after she mentioned that the BCSO had his DNA.
Near the end of what was a two hour conversation
during her visit, Laurie asked Lenny if he thought of
(41:31):
himself as a psychopath. He responded by saying he was
a crazy kind of guy. So she countered by asking
him if he ever felt remorse, and he said, why
should I, to which Laurie responded, That's exactly what Dennis
Raider said to me.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
They called me the other night. He said I never
said I wasn't a killer, and I told him, I said, well,
it's not good enough. It's not good enough for you
to tell me that you're not a killer if you're
not gonna tell me who you killed.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
In February twenty twenty four, Lenny called me one afternoon.
I waited a day and called him back. You called
me the other day. I was wondering, what's going on?
Speaker 7 (42:13):
Who is this?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
This is em William Phelps. We talked a while ago.
I'm an investigative journalist looking at Danis Stidham's case. I
called you and we recorded a phone call from my
podcast and I saw that you called, so I was
wondering what's up.
Speaker 7 (42:30):
I probably just missed all in the morning thing.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Oh you didn't want to talk?
Speaker 7 (42:35):
Uh wh I should? I don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You don't know anything about those cases.
Speaker 7 (42:42):
I don't really anything.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Have you spoke to police lately or anybody like that
or me recently within the past six months year.
Speaker 7 (42:53):
I told you to somebody the other day.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Oh you did what you have to say?
Speaker 7 (42:58):
She was er the case?
Speaker 8 (43:01):
Sure, I said, no, well there or they instill of
be either.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So you know, Danas Stidham, we were talking before and
you said you didn't have anything to do with that.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
No, I didn't. I got blamed for it. I tell
you that advertation in southwest Missouri.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
How did it ruin your reputation?
Speaker 7 (43:26):
Because it was I did.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Nobody even knew the guy had been questioned. His name,
unlike Mike McMillan's, was never brought into the case publicly.
That's just more bullshit spewing from the mouth of a
guy who spewed a lot of it and likes to
play games. What about the we were talking about the
crime scene?
Speaker 8 (43:48):
I did not talk to you anybody else because I
don't know anything. You're not too bright either, something. I
don't know anything. I've told you that time time again.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Your name is on a lot of the reports. How
come they came after you so hard? They searched your
house as well? In your car.
Speaker 7 (44:09):
Right right right? That didn't be a damp thing.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Well they found blood in your station wagon in the
front seat.
Speaker 7 (44:19):
Now, if I kills them anything, i'd load them in
the front seat.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
I don't know. I'm not a killer, Oh not either,
are you?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
What?
Speaker 8 (44:30):
I just get to tell you, you're not too damn brother?
If you don't understand English.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
What about the bindings they took from your house, rope wire,
that sort of thing.
Speaker 7 (44:45):
Big deal. A lot of people have ropes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
In the house, ropes with a murder victim's DNA on it.
Speaker 7 (44:55):
It wasn't.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I think that's yet to be the determined.
Speaker 7 (45:02):
What the hell you told her me for? Well?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You called me, so I'm calling you back, and I'm
asking you why you called. You wanted to talk to me.
I'm just being respectful here, you know. I want I
want your your opinion, I want your voice and what
I'm working on so you can explain yourself. That's all
your explain myself. They questioned you a number of times.
(45:25):
They questioned your ex wife, you know, your kids. They
looked at your background.
Speaker 7 (45:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
They searched your house. They searched your vehicles.
Speaker 7 (45:34):
Weather fine, weather fun.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
They found blood in your station wagon.
Speaker 7 (45:40):
Who's blood?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, you tell me, why would you have a bunch
of blood on the carpet of your station wagon. I've
seen photographs of it. That's a lot of blood. So
where would that blood come from?
Speaker 7 (45:55):
Who knows? You know?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
You it's your car. If there was blood I found
in my car, I'd know where it came from.
Speaker 7 (46:03):
Well you would, Bud would how come? Why is there.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Because it's your vehicle?
Speaker 7 (46:11):
Big deal?
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I believe there was blood also in the back seat
of the car. So it is that Dana Didam's blood.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
Blood?
Speaker 7 (46:22):
Unpagging house? Who there's blood where you're pegging house?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Is that danas Didam's blood?
Speaker 7 (46:32):
Hasa know? Is it your blood?
Speaker 1 (46:36):
It's not my blood?
Speaker 8 (46:38):
How do you know?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
It was a stupid comeback and he knew it. You
might be wondering if that blood was ever tested. I
asked the BCSO and despite luminol tests showing blood all
over the place inside his vehicle, which the crime scene
photos I have depict, as well as indications of blood
clean up. I was told there was not enough to test.
(47:03):
Lenny was combative this time around. I'll give him that,
so I decided to touch upon the subject which had
caused him so much anxiety last time. See if I
got the same response. What about the Beal Road crime
scene where she was found? We were talking about that before.
Did you ever go walking through that woods or did
you hunt there or anything more of the same silence
(47:28):
and noises. Hello, I think you went quiet last time
we talked about Beal Road in the woods there. From
what I'm told, they have your DNA found out there.
I think this happened last time we chatted. I asked
you about Beal Road and the crime scene where Dana
(47:48):
was found, and last time he got sick. This time
you're just silent. I guess I'm gonna hang up now
if you don't want to talk. You have my number.
You called me so oh. It's rare that as you
(48:13):
work on cold cases in the capacity I do, a
case breaks wide open for you as you are investigating.
But that is what happened as I worked on this
final episode. In early March twenty twenty four, Detective Lorie
Howard and Detective Ronda Wise, with the help of others,
(48:35):
finally solved and officially closed Shauna Garber's murder, and what
was first thought to be a gruesome manner of death
as I had mentioned, turned out to be false. Shauna's
breasts were not mutilated after all, Thank god for small mercies.
(48:56):
I had been told about this new suspect, Telfy Reeves
during the summer of twenty twenty three. The guy was
a real shit bag and hit every marker your average
psychopath would.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
There was never any manner of death in the autopsy report.
The strangulation was supposition based on a lack of other things.
But yes, having worked a great deal my partner, Deputy Wise,
and I and especially lately, i'd say within the last
six months, we have spent every day, all day long
(49:35):
working on this and the reason is because we developed
a suspect. That suspect is no longer alive, unfortunately, but
what it did do when he passed, it opened some
doors for people to come forward that wouldn't come forward
prior to So this suspect in Shawna's case, and now
(50:00):
I'm just gonna call him tr but I anticipate a
press release coming forward very soon, so he is now
a suspect. I now have people talking.
Speaker 7 (50:15):
I have.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Finally, I think, I say, I but we have placed
it and put it all together in the puzzle that
it is, and I think we got it.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
That press release did come on March twenty first, twenty
twenty four, and this narrative you were about to hear
regarding Shawna's murder fell in line with Shauna seemingly being
in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the
devil lurking in the shadows. We've discussed the likelihood and
(50:48):
we now believed that there is likely no connection to
Dana's case.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
What we believe happened to Shauna. She aged out of
the foster care system, and as we found out, she
was adopted early on, somewhere around the age of six
her adoptive parents. We call it a failed adoption because
Shauna had a lot of mental and a lot of
(51:17):
physical problems. She went back into the foster care system
somewhere around eighty five eighty four eighty five eighty six.
She left a foster care situation. The caseworker is known
to have told family members that she was going to
go stay in Oklahoma, which was a piece we didn't
(51:39):
have for a long time. But she was going to
go stay in Oklahoma because she had family there. We
searched to a dead end basically on the family members
in Oklahoma, which made me at first question it. But
then I realized, we're probably not talking about her biological family.
We're not even talking about her adopted family. More than likely,
(52:01):
we're talking about her last foster care family's extended family,
because that's really all she had. So she winds up
in Oklahoma, interestingly enough, in the Vanita Claremore area, which
is not too far from the Missouri line. We later
(52:22):
learned that she was being transported via a work program
via van back and forth to a job. Now we
were initially giving bad information, which threw us off again.
We were told that it was a different area, that
this was in Kansas. It wasn't. But we figured out
(52:43):
that the van that she was taking back and forth
from the Vanita Claremore area was taking her more than
likely to Hudson Foods. Hudson Foods was bought out and
is now Tyson Foods, but it has always been in
the Missouri area. It's in McDonald County. It actually is
(53:08):
less than maybe two miles a mile and a half
from where she was dumped. That van was taking her
back and forth from the Word program back to where
she was staying in the Vanita Claremore area. However, on
one occasion at least she wasn't on the van. I
(53:28):
don't know exactly what happened, but she didn't wind up there,
and we were told by a witness that says t
R picked her up while she was walking along that highway,
which is consistent. Everybody walks Highway fifty nine going from
(53:48):
Tyson's nol or Hudson Foods nol Over to where she
would have been found walking and where we were told
she was picked up, so that's all consistent.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
There are no pictures of Shanna Garber from her childhood
teen years or later, save for one photo when she
was about four years old. Her toothless smile, short hair,
and overall joyous expression obscuring horrendous abuse before she had
even entered into the foster care system. By March twenty
(54:24):
twenty four, Laurie had finally latched onto, at least partially,
one of the ghosts she had been chasing for fifteen
long years. Here's Detective Laurie Howard again.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
The other thing we have put together, Ginger Blue, especially
in the nineties, was a beautiful vacation spot. It had
a gorgeous inn. It was a thriving place, had a
restaurant and a place to stay. But towards the early nineties,
I should say, back up in, say, in the eighties,
(55:02):
it was flourishing, but when you got to that nineties area,
it had gone downhill some And she, Shauna had a
material that was in her pocket. I looked at that
material for a really long time and determined that it
was a cloth napkin. And I couldn't never understand why
(55:23):
she would have a cloth napkin in her pocket, unless
she was working at a restaurant, or perhaps she was hungry,
grabbed a roll, grabbed bread and put it in her pocket. Together,
we know that she had a towel wrapped around her
head in coax cable. Right that towel was It's consistent
(55:45):
with the kind of towel, the color of towel that
they had at the inn. They also had an old
TV system. Of course, back then cable TV with a
short cox cable attached to each one of the rooms,
each TV that was in each room at the old inn.
So it's consistent to say that she at some point
(56:08):
in time had ended up there around that octoberish timeframe.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Did tr work at that place?
Speaker 2 (56:16):
He didn't work there, but he passed it every day.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
There was the answer to the coaxial cable and towel
wrapped around Shawna's head.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
That stretch of highway, you really just can't get very
far without going one direction or the other on that
stretch of highway connects Well fifty nine runs all the
way from Anderson all the way through to knowl and
on end to Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
So he picked her up on the road while she
was hitchhiking or something.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Well, she was walking, and I don't know if she
was if she had missed the van and she was
wanting to stay in that area, if she literally was
just looking for a place to stay for that night,
or if she was trying to get it job there.
That's still kind of a mystery why she was walking
that night, because the van would have picked her up,
(57:06):
you know, dropped her off in the morning and picked
her up in the evening after the shift. Could have
been that she just was tired of working and tired
of living where she was living and opted to go
a different route.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
And tr You know a lot about him, and not
a great deal. He was a bad guy, am I right?
Speaker 4 (57:24):
It was a.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
Terrible I have one witness, five sources, and I personally
knew the man and everybody that has ever known him,
and I'm going to be one of those those people.
He was evil, He was pure evil. He ran drugs,
(57:46):
He used drugs all of his life. He had two
children that passed from gunshot wounds. He had an ex
wife that had a hillacious life by all accounts, I mean,
just by digging into his life with her. So I
can't imagine having this person around me. And now I
(58:08):
can imagine why nobody really wanted to speak, right, because
why would you?
Speaker 1 (58:15):
I mean, Shauna crossed paths with the devil.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
She did, She most certainly did. And you know what,
of course she would, of course she would yea if
there was a wrong turn. The girl to icket through
no fault of.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Her own, right, the invisible girl.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
She's completely invisible and I say that because there's no
one cared enough to even take a picture of her.
And I don't know why that bothers me so, but
it does.
Speaker 11 (58:52):
Yeah, Yeah, And so you develop information that trs her
up and what happens.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
He has a person of interest with him at the time,
we were able to determine through both a witness and
other sources. Now five other sources, we've been able to
corroborate this story that he takes her. Now, remember, this
is a drug fueled frenzy, spun out mess with somebody
(59:29):
that I've been told is almost bipolar, can be seemingly
somewhat normal, and then just angry, so angry that you're
terrified to be in his presence. So he picks her
up along with another and he takes her up the
road where by the way he lives, you can see
(59:51):
his home by looking directly across from where she is,
and he binds her with what they have in the
back of the vehicle. I think the cox cable was
done initially to wrap her face so she wouldn't see
(01:00:13):
what was happening, so she wouldn't see where they were going,
so she wouldn't see where she was Because I don't
think he cared whether he saw her face and how
afraid she might have been. I've been told that that
just would have made things better for him, So I
believe he did it to keep her from knowing where
she was going. I think he took the towel. From
(01:00:34):
the end, he used the cox cable, which I always
thought was odd. Couldn't figure out why anybody, especially somebody
that's a serial killer or basically a farm boy, either
one somebody local, You wouldn't tie somebody with cox cable.
It's the worst possible medium. But I think he did
it just because he didn't have anything else at the time.
(01:00:55):
Put it across her face and neck, and that's where
that entered in. Then also from the end, she had
the napkin in her pocket. He took her up to
the road. They tied her the rest of the way
with what they had in the back of the vehicle.
I now know who that vehicle belongs to, which was
a hang up for a while. They raped her and
(01:01:21):
she was screaming so badly, and so it breaks my heart.
But she was literally screaming so much that you could
hear the echo down the valley, and it scared them.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
This explains the screams on Halloween. Laurie Howard and Ronda
Wise spoke to six different sources, none of whom knew
each other, each telling the same story. This is how
we know we have the absolute truth. This next part
from me exemplifies and truly displays the sociopath's absolute pathology.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Who are and so my witness says that he's laughing
as he's telling this story later on in the evening,
But they start to get nervous because somebody. They know
that there's a party down the hill, they know that
it's a bunch of kids, they know it's a Halloween.
But they start to get They start to get nervous.
(01:02:21):
So he overdoses her, which, by the way, come to
find out, is a pretty standard practice because I'm told
this wasn't his first victim.
Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
So he gives her a hot shot.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
He gives her a hot.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Shot, and then what does he do.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
He I have My witness states that she believes and
this is according to what tr says, that he props
her up, and she says she she thinks that it
would have been on an old spickett, an old water spigut.
(01:03:00):
I don't know I can't confirm that, so I don't
really want to say that that's the case. But essentially
she's propped up somehow. Why I don't know.
Speaker 7 (01:03:14):
And then.
Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
T R and person of interests leave. They then go
and talk to someone else and they're talking about everything
that they just did to her, and they're laughing and
they think it's funny, and they're reliving every moment. Now,
remember this just happened. And so what happens the next morning?
(01:03:41):
My witness goes next door or I should say, up
the hill, and sure enough, she sees everything that she
thought she.
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Would see, and Shawna was dead.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Shauna was dead.
Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
And did they mutilate her at all?
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
No? The story that was given by one source stated
that she had her breasts removed or sliced. I've had
more than one source come forward with TR and say no,
he did not cut her breast off.
Speaker 11 (01:04:21):
Okay, thank god for small things.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
So wow, So yeah, I can understand why witnesses would
have been afraid of coming forward until he died.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
They were terrified.
Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
And he died a horrible death, right, I mean, he
died in an accident a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
He did, he died in a vehicle accident. I'm told
it was a horrible death good and you know what,
I'm okay with that. And I know that sounds.
Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Callous, No it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
But but on the other hand, my feelings for Shauna
and in any case that I work, but Shawna in particular,
and I'm told I look like Shawna.
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Shawna was like the daughter to you.
Speaker 7 (01:05:07):
She was.
Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
She absolutely was. I took her with me everywhere I went.
You did, and that's because I didn't want to lose
her again. I had to find her in the first.
Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Place, and you solved the case. Nathan Smith was no
longer the Bentonville prosecutor. He left the office during the
time I began this case years ago and finished my
work in twenty twenty four, taking a job on Walmart's
legal team. But the last time I spoke to him
about the cases, he said a few things that I
(01:05:39):
think sum up this season very well.
Speaker 10 (01:05:44):
Well, Look, I think that first of all, I appreciate
you doing the story, and I know there's a lot
of cases around the country that are cold and have
families that the one answer is just as badly, but
it is so important for these cases to not be
Forgod and to not be just shelved. And so one
(01:06:05):
of the things important is there could be someone listening
who knows something, who knows someone, who is related to
someone that maybe their entire family thinks, you know what,
he has always acted very suspiciously and has all these connections,
and I would just for the sake of Dani's family,
I would just beg them to get that information to
(01:06:25):
law enforcement or to someone who can use it, because
oftentimes in cases like this, it can be small things
that make the difference. It can be a small key
that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one
knew was there. And we have to value human life
and we can't simply forget about it because it's old
and it hasn't been solved yet.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Finding answers and resolution in cold cases requires persistence and patience.
In the end, as one case was solved, the other
heading in that direction, I hold on to hope that
someday soon Dana Didham's family will get what they deserve justice.
(01:07:11):
Subscribe and foul the show to keep up with bonus
episodes coming soon. If you appreciate the work I do
on Paper Ghosts, follow my other podcast, Crossing the line
with em William Phelps, where I approach new cases each
week in a similar fashion. I want to thank every
one of my sources and those who took the time
(01:07:32):
to help sit in for an interview or discuss the
case with me. I can't say enough how much journalist
Brandon Howard helped me out, and I thank him immensely
for it. I also want to thank my Paper Ghost
production team, Catherine Law, Rose Bachi, Matt Russell, Brandon Dicker.
(01:07:54):
Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by
me Em William Phelps, grip consulting by Rose Bachi, sound
design by Matt Russeller, executive production by Catherine Law, and
audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Taka Boom Productions.
The series theme number four four to two is written
(01:08:15):
and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo
In the last episode we heard a conversation with suspect
Jack Lney. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him.
But before continuing down that path, I needed to look
into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have
been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shauna Garber,
(00:30):
one who was active at the time in the area.
At another point in the podcast, you heard about a
witness reporting a white van parked behind Dana Stidham's car
during the early evening hours after she left Phillip's grocery.
Two men were seen standing behind or near her car
(00:51):
and that van. In January twenty twenty four, I learned
from a law enforcement source that a white van had
been connected to Shauna Garber's mind as well. It was
part of an interview solving Shawna's case after thirty plus years,
which will impact soon. That van park behind Dana's carr
(01:12):
plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high
profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall. Hall is a serial killer,
yet he's rare and that he's never been convicted of
a murder. One university study on Hall claims he could
(01:33):
be responsible for upwards of fifty or more abductions, rapes,
and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping
of fifteen year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from
Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification, The subject
of the Apple TV Plus drama Blackbird, Larry Hall was
(01:56):
arrested in October nineteen ninety four and has been in
prison ever since. With his mutton choped sideburns and backwoods
Gomer Pyle like persona, Hall spent a considerable amount of
time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling
for victims throughout the Midwest and South during the late
(02:18):
eighties and early nineties. He claimed his extensive travel was
centered around the Civil War reenactments he participated in. Hall
often traveled with a man he was very close to,
a co conspirator in many of his crimes. Larry Hall's
(02:38):
method of abduction is very similar to what we saw
in Dana Stidham's case, and, according to some new information
I've received, the kidnapping and murder of SHAWNA. Garber. Hall
often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following
women riding bikes, jogging, or walking, then grabbing them just
(03:00):
the right moment. A young woman alone with her car
broken down on the side of the road would have
been Hall's ideal situation to strike. Detective Lorie Howard, who
you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years
ago at Buckner Federal Prison in North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I went and talked with Larry Hall, and I actually
was worried when I talked to him that he might
say that I did this just because he really wanted
to please me. You know, I knew when I went
in there he probably wanted me to stay, and I
knew that he wanted to talk, so I was kind
(03:42):
of concerned that he would do just the opposite of
what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah,
it's she's mine, and I was concerned about that. What
actually happened is I slid Seans photo across the table
to him, and he immediately looked at it and he said,
she's not mine. Said did you kill her? And he said, no,
(04:05):
she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was
concerned that that's not what I would get. So I
knew immediately that Shawna was not his.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative,
and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's
been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective
Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham, considering how the circumstances fit,
especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around,
(04:40):
potentially Hall and his partner. It can also not be
overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site,
is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall,
for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction
and or or murder and said he was not even
(05:02):
in per Ridge near the time she disappeared. And did
you believe him?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Oh? Yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for
being a false confessionist, if you will, although I don't
believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination,
but he has that label.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The thing that nagged at me about Larry Hall and
Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner
close to him, a guy very close to him, and
he also drove around in a van. The cliche and
two guys who could fit Larry's description and as partner
(05:45):
were seen in back of Dana along with a van
on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So
what did he say about Dana Stidham's case.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
He wasn't anywhere around during that timeframe, he said, I
wasn't there. There wasn't a re enactment. I actually checked
all of that, so there was no reason to put
him in the area at that time frame.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry Hall and
delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing
the Line with m William Phelps, in a two part
special outlining the monster Larry Hall truly is. You see.
Hall had a pension for young girls, kids really and
(06:30):
he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his
home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can
hear in this excerpt from that interview, he also groomed
some of his victims.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
My friend Steve brought her with him a couple of
times in the car. She was a friend of mine.
The Steve's a friend mine named Steve knew her. She
was only twelve years old. She was missing too. He
was a little a little bit older than me. I
met him at a little shopping mall down there by
(07:09):
eleven in Indiana where the there's a bus. The bus
has come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple
of times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing.
I used to hang out with him in a little
park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I
didn't know the last name, but Dabby, I believe that
(07:32):
I'm not potty. I can't can't probably remember.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
The guy loved to play the ignorant card. But believe me,
he knew and he remembered all.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Of his victims.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why
they sometimes take trophies, a little reminder of each and
every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing Hall,
he brought up another unsolf case, a big one.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me,
but I did kill the Springfield three.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
On June seventh, nineteen ninety two, the parents of eighteen
year old Stacy McCall contacted the Springfield, Missouri Police Department,
saying their daughter had disappeared from the home a forty
seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's
nineteen year old daughter, Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the
(08:36):
Leavitt house showed no signs a foced entry or a struggle,
but the three young women were gone, as if plucked
out of their lives in the middle of a normal day.
All their personal property had been left behind, purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes,
(08:58):
even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And that I had reason to believe there might be
some validity to and I say that knowing that it's
not my case beyond what he told me. But I
know in his van there was evidence that had a
map that had this area that had Branson that had
(09:24):
an X on it. I know there was evidence to
coroborate that, and there was a reenactment for those particular murders,
but there wasn't anything in the van. It would include
Dana or Shawna.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Larry Dwayne Hall is evil incarnate, but I don't think
the evidence supports him being the evil I have been
chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry Hall has never
faced murder charges is because, as horrible as it sounds
the guy was able to hide the bodies of his
(09:59):
victims very well, and as you know, neither Dana or
Shauna were really hidden. With all this sevenance in hand,
I could confidently exclude Larry Hall as their killer and
continued down the road of Jack Lenny. Previously on Paper.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Ghosts, it seems to check all the boxes for a
sexual predator going into the store with a hood on
their face, standing behind the women, poggling them, making circles
around the store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for them
in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway,
trying to pull them over, in some cases, groping them.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
I just remember being in the basement of this individual's
house and there had to been like over one hundred
schools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who
keeps chords. I don't keep chords, but it just was
pretty ominous.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them
were impossible. It was impossible to have this self trying,
but that's gonna be solved, and it will be.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
My name is Emma William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
and author of more than forty true crime books. This
is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. In getting
(11:34):
Jack Lenny on the phone, I saw an opportunity, maybe
the only one I would get. Go at him hard.
I told myself, hold nothing back, put the evidence from
Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table, and see how
he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout
(11:56):
the podcast, who I might add, has built a wrong
case against Lenny over the course of many years and
helped me more than I can express here. I flipped
back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering
if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to LENNI was nothing
more than a series of coincidences and an overactive sense
(12:19):
of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have
to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence, And
I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as
a suspect in nineteen ninety five and never spoke to
or pursued him again. Talking to Lenny, however, began to
(12:44):
change my mind, and it's hard not to take what
happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward,
as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body
of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to
go back to that phone call you heard at the
(13:04):
end of the last episode and pick up where we
left off. So you have nothing to do with Dana
Stidham's murder?
Speaker 7 (13:13):
Hell no?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Did you know Danas Stidham?
Speaker 7 (13:17):
Hell no?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
There's the other case in Pineville, gray Stowe, Seana Garber murder.
What about her case? Any connection to her death?
Speaker 7 (13:28):
Hell no.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it an emphatic
how dare you sense of denial? At least at the
outset of our conversation. You were interviewed a few times
and brought in, and they searched your place and came
after you pretty damn hard? Am I right?
Speaker 7 (13:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Why was that? You think I have no worth?
Speaker 7 (13:56):
Idea? They were? They were hunting for someone first.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source,
especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am
not a cop, clearly, and I do not solve murders.
My aim always is to develop new information and try
to help families find answers. Then I hand that information
(14:24):
off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was
never going to like me, and I could not have
cared less so I could use that personal disdain to
my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what
you want in situations like these. Did you kill Dana Stidham?
Speaker 7 (14:48):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I think?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I don't know, which is why I'm asking either. His
answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not
just say hell no again? Why the games? Why not say, look,
you have the wrong dude, I didn't do anything. How
can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone?
(15:14):
After all, he knew I was recording the call. Now
if I might ask the Sheriff's office seemed to think
that you might have actually known Dana's Stidham. Why well,
I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that
(15:34):
claim you hung around the Phillips grocery and that you
knew Dana Stidam.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana?
She worked at the store.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I have a problem with this. Are you certain you
didn't know her?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Going back to his second interview with BCSO detectives Varner
and Sidor react, Lenny was the one who brought Dana
up and knew exactly who she was. But why would
they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at
least know her or run into her at the store?
Speaker 7 (16:13):
I mean, because they were looking for an escapegoat. I
thought I would be the one because I was all
over the.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Stre Okay, So you worked construction or something like that,
and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at
the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Hello,
This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue
(16:44):
until something extremely bizarre happened. No, so you didn't work
in the area, yes, but not then that's not true,
wasn't it In nineteen eighty nine, nineteen nine? You were
working in and around Bella Vista.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
You're correct?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, So you're saying that you had nothing to do
with Dana's abduction and murder. Then is that your statement?
Is that your response? You don't know who killed her?
Speaker 7 (17:19):
Not done, I don't know where she was killed.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
For a guy who had started out our phone call
by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder. I began
to understand that his temperament wouldn't allow him to walk
away without explaining himself. The reports, your interviews with the
Benton County Sheriff's Office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle,
(17:43):
the cables and bindings found in your house. You were
at the Phillips a lot in fact, on the day
she went missing, and you were reported as possibly talking
to Dana in the parking lot. I got to ask, again,
did you know Dana? What from? I have no earthly
idea to knowing her someone, and then she's later found murdered.
(18:08):
I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy.
I'm just trying to explain all of these coincidences lining
up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day
she went missing? No, so this is all coincidental, then circumstance,
you had nothing to do with danas Didham's murder.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Are you sure about that, because the evidence says otherwise.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
As much to do murder as you did. Did you
have anything to do with their murder?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere
mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction, especially when
I began to touch on the evidence, and yet he
would not hang up on me. I live on the
East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity, but you did, sir.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
All right, Africa, Well, let's.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have
some trouble while there, while you were in the service
with a sex worker? What happened there?
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I remember, I got a miss understanding.
Speaker 8 (19:26):
I a long trouble down there with a misunderstanding some
no one, no one of the president, Kevin annoyed.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Empower a misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke
to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the
Panama allegations, and he told me Lenny beat a sex
worker while stationed in Panama. A little more than a misunderstanding.
I mean, you were accused of beating girl.
Speaker 8 (20:00):
I thought you just wanted to know about Dais still
or whatever. But you covered them all when I told
you I had nothing.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
To do with it.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Are you absolutely certain about that?
Speaker 7 (20:12):
I guess I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
But you were there on the day she went missing
at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear.
Speaker 7 (20:19):
It has been so long ago. I don't even think
about it.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips
that day. Why would people place you there?
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Then?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
What is the evidence backing you up when others say different?
My word, your ward alone. Could you talk to me
about July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, what you did
on that day?
Speaker 8 (20:43):
I could I remember them?
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So the Sheriff's office came after you and questioned you
hard to tell you that all these women at the
grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment, following women on
the way out, following them in your card. He does
not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of.
(21:09):
I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation,
placing Lenny at the crime scene. I wanted to get
him to say he knew where it was because I
knew he did. What about Beal Lane, the crime scene
up there by Ozark Beverage where Dana was found. Do
you know where that is?
Speaker 7 (21:30):
Oh? What you mean?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
You don't know that area?
Speaker 7 (21:36):
Really?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Remember what he says there? It'll come back into play
later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation,
something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention
of the crime scene, I realized struck a nerve. I'd
found an area of inquiry that rattled him. Are you
(22:05):
still there?
Speaker 7 (22:08):
Are you still there?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'm here? Are you all right? You're feeling okay? Do
you remember that time.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
I forgot about?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never
been up to be elane.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
I told you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No again, Remember what he says for a second time. No,
he'd never been up to be a lane. Not where
is it? Or I don't know where that area of
town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become
very important when we look at what happens the day
(22:50):
after I speak to Lenny. Lots of people say different.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
I don't think wherever they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by
the Sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating
things about you, like you were acting strange around the
time Dana went missing, and around that time when she
was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once
(23:21):
when her case was mentioned on TV. How do we
explain that you there?
Speaker 7 (23:32):
Thanks for that mass the divorce she was scared of you.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That's what I believe. What kind of person was your
ex wife? He describes her by using an insulting racial slur,
which I will not allow in this show. So I
changed course. You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing
Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you
(24:02):
might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her,
which is it? No, according to the reports, you were
well aware of this case as it was happening. After
they questioned you a second time, they asked you to
take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around
you for a time there. They were really hot on you.
(24:25):
You know this. They came at you hard. Did you
kill Danas Stidham? You there, speak to me? He doesn't
say anything for about two minutes.
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Then you got all the information. Well why did you
ask me if you already knew? Uh? Stupid, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk.
Speaker 7 (24:59):
To me, understandfory too.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the
interview as part of the podcast, so I put it
out there again. Well, I'm recording this from my podcast
paper Ghosts.
Speaker 7 (25:16):
I don't care you.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Kill that girl?
Speaker 7 (25:21):
Didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
It's important at this stage to go back to Shauna
Garber's case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar
caller who was later allegedly identified as Jack Lenny, threatened
to cut off the breasts of the woman on the
other end of the phone. In early twenty twenty four,
law enforcement revealed to me that Shauna Garber's killer cut
(25:47):
her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with
a hot shot an intentional forced overdose of heroin. No
knowledge of what happened to Shanna Garber. Shauna Garber, No,
(26:07):
I don't know. You never picked her up, hitch hiking,
No murder, She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered. Her body
dumped on Oscar Tally Road in Pineville Anderson, Missouri. You're
familiar with that area. Oh, several minutes went by with
(26:30):
nothing but heavy breathing. Did you kill Shauna Garber?
Speaker 7 (26:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I got a sense he was beginning to feel the
weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly
worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had
been thirty one year since law enforcement spoke to Lenny. Here.
Now three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a
panic attack. Essentially at the mere mention of these cases,
(27:12):
You're okay, this interview bothering you. And then as things escalate,
with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible, something in fact,
(27:33):
you've heard him do before, when the murders of two
young women were put right in his face. When we
are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut.
(27:54):
It's simple physiology. We've all been there, uncomfortable situationations, and
dare I say feelings of guilt can exacerbate a condition
known as stress nausea. We've been down this road before.
Within the investigation into Jack Linny, remember that back in
(28:15):
nineteen ninety three, his ex wife told detective Danny Varner
that when Dana's case came on television one night, Lenny vomited.
As my conversation with Lenny continued, I could feel the
stress coming from the other end of the line. The
heavy breathing, odd silences, groaning noises, the fact that he
(28:39):
did not hang up on me. It all said something
about his disposition, personality, and attitude toward the murders of
Dana Stidham and Seanna Garber. Is this upsetting to you
to talk about. No, so there's no way you had
(28:59):
anything to do with Dana Didham's murder. All right, About
three minutes went by. He remained silent, but every once
(29:22):
in a while he'd let me know he was still
willing to talk. Still there, Yeah, you're doing all right there.
This thing bringing up a lot of old feeling.
Speaker 7 (29:37):
I was sick.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
There. It was the conversation had made him ill, not
the flu or a cold. Talking about this was making
Jack Lenny sick to his stomach. I did stop over
there at your house when I was in Arkansas over
the summer, but you weren't around, knocked on the door there,
(30:06):
So well, just letting you know, you know, just conversation.
There's no evidence that can tie you to Dana's murder.
Is that what you're saying? I just want to get
it straight with your You know what you're telling me.
(30:27):
Is there anything you'd like to say to her family?
Her mother just passed away?
Speaker 7 (30:34):
Showed your mind.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Notice he doesn't say sorry to hear that, or show
any sympathy whatsoever. Instead, he takes the narcissistic route and
makes it about himself. I'm sorry to hear that. There's
some people in law enforcement think you might be a
serial killer. What do you think of that? I don't
(31:00):
you think they'll ever find the person who killed Danas Didham?
You think the person is still alive. He had nothing
to do with her abduction.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Only time you have to tray it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And you you've never been to Pineville, Missouri? Frequent in
that area? Oscar Tally Road? What Oscar Tally Road in
Pineville Anderson, Missouri?
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Not true, he told the BCSO he used to pass
by the area all the time when he lived in Missouri.
I was curious about a phone call. I have a
report of a girl who took a phone call. It's
a very vile phone call about a man who called
and said all sorts of disgusting sexual things. And then
(31:59):
they brought her in and they played her the tape
of your interview and six other guys, and she picked
you out of that lineup. Do you remember making that call?
That wasn't you? Do you want me to stop by
there next time I'm in the area and have a
(32:21):
chat with you in person?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Are you done talking about this? Is there anything you'd
like to say? Five minutes went by without a response,
but I could hear him. He was nauseous and whimpering,
and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's
doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the
(32:53):
biggest reaction. Just how big I was about to learn.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Mm hmmm, you are right, mhm, m hmm.
Speaker 9 (33:30):
You okay, mhmm.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
This subject seems to be upsetting to you.
Speaker 9 (33:59):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
He was vomiting, but the guy still wouldn't hang up
on me. He blew his nose, threw up some more,
breathed heavily, but he stayed on the line, and he
had literally brought the phone with him into the bathroom.
Should we say goodbye now? Anything else you want to say?
This seems very upsetting to you. I'm gonna say goodbye now.
(34:28):
I'm not getting any response from you. Is there anything
you want to talk about? You have my number. I
hung up after about ten minutes of listening to him
breathing and trying to figure out his next move. And look,
at this point, I certainly have not proven he had
anything to do with either murder. The pressure I applied
(34:50):
during this call might seem aggressive, but he has harassed
women all his life. The fact that I gave it
back to this bully in a small way. Tough shit.
You want to taunt women, abuse women, harass them and
foul them, and stalk them and intimidate them. I Am
(35:11):
not going to hold back. This would not be the
last time I confronted Jack Lenny. After the call, I
contacted the BCSO and let them know what had gone down.
Then I called Detective Laurie Howard and explained ending by saying, this, look,
(35:31):
he's on the ropes. You had better get a few
investigators over there, like tomorrow to interview him. Laurie Howard,
along with Detective Ronda Wise and an observer, knocked on
Lenny's door the following day, and you know what a
difference twenty four hours can make. I obtained a recording
(35:59):
of the interview Laurie Howard conducted with Jack Lenny the
day after I spoke to him. However, because Lenny did
not consent to me using it as he had from
my calls with him, I need to summarize, so.
Speaker 10 (36:12):
I need to know if I can pick your brain.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'm here to talk about a gal by the name
of Shawn at Barber. I'm hoping you can help me go.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Back because I'm After introducing herself, Detective Howard mentioned Shauna Garber,
which was her doorway into what Lenny had to say
about Dana. Lenny used the word scapegoat yet again. What's
important is that he sounds different. He's laughing and joking,
being a smart ass, almost gloating when he talks to Laurie.
(36:45):
Laurie asks him, if you didn't know Shauna or Dana,
why did the BCSO just randomly pick you to drag
in for an interview. He says, quote, I was at
the Phillips grocery store a lot. Laurie then tells Lenny
the BCSO has his DNA, which he interprets as a
(37:07):
sample he gave them back in the day. She clarified
by saying she believed that they had found his DNA
on Dana. He shrugged off the statement. He then mentioned
that I had called him the day before, referring to
me as a joker. Here's Laurie explaining her interaction with
(37:30):
Lenny on that day and several days after the visit,
when he began calling her.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Incessantly, and then he just reminds me that he is
a killer, and he never once told me that he
wasn't a killer, and so you know, I basically reprimanded
him and said, well, you know, essentially, I don't hear
you're a killer if you're not going to go into
detail and tell me about that. So he switches gears,
and I think it's probably in an effort to regain
(37:55):
some power or control. So he tells me, you know,
I'm a millionaire, and he said, why haven't you been
back to see me? And I said, well, basically, i've
been in touch with you, or better yet, you've been
in touch with me, and you still don't have anything
that I need. And so he said, are you at home?
And I said yes, and he said are you by yourself?
(38:18):
And I lied and I said no and he said, well,
I only kill people that are by themselves. And I said,
so if I was by myself, essentially you're telling me
that you I would be a good candidate. And he said,
I just asked if you were home and alone.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
At his house that day, Laurie asked Lenny what he
would do if the BCSO showed up at his door
with an arrest warrant. Lenny said, quote, if they try
to get in, I've got a thirty eight fully loaded
that I sleep with now. If you recall, he had
told me he had no idea where Dana was found,
(38:59):
but it was when I started talking about the crime scene,
the one he allegedly had no idea of, that made
him physically ill. A day later, talking to Detective Laurie Howard,
he explained exactly where Dana was found, admitted to being
out there, and even mentioned how badly her corpse smelled,
(39:21):
referring to the smell of decomposition as sickening. And the
reason for his DNA possibly being at the scene, which
Laurie had floated, he said, would be because he urinated
in the woods near where Dana's body was found. As
they discussed the crime scene, Laurie asked why he didn't
(39:43):
tell anyone from the bcso he had been out to
the scene and saw Dana's body, which would have explained
why they had his DNA. He said he didn't want
to get involved. Days later, during one of more than
ten phone calls Laurie received from Lenny, he says to her.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I'm not afraid to give answers. He said, I'm going
to die, and I said, well, before you die, why
don't you tell me what you know I want to hear.
And he said, I know you've worked hard, and I said,
I have worked hard. I've dedicated my entire life to
this kind of thing. I would really would like to
wrap this up. You know, these these girls are deserving.
(40:24):
And he said, I know I'm not afraid to die
and I'm not afraid to talk. And I said, well,
apparently you are. And he kind of got snippy with
me a little bit. You know, well, I'm giving you
answers and I said, you're not giving me answers. So
we went back and forth with that just a little bit,
and I said, I'm going to go, but if you
(40:45):
want me to come talk to you, and you want
me to come see you, or you want to continue
to call me, then it's not good enough that you're
just telling me you killed somebody. He also told me
that the same person who killed Dana killed my girl.
He referred to Sean my girl. He wants to tell
you he's a killer. He wants to tell you he'll
kill you. He point blank said it to me. If
(41:06):
you're by yourself, I would be there. I would kill you.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The big takeaway from the conversations Laurie Howard had with
Lenny was that he admitted to being at the crime
scene while Dana's body was out in the woods, but
only after she mentioned that the BCSO had his DNA.
Near the end of what was a two hour conversation
during her visit, Laurie asked Lenny if he thought of
(41:31):
himself as a psychopath. He responded by saying he was
a crazy kind of guy. So she countered by asking
him if he ever felt remorse, and he said, why
should I, to which Laurie responded, That's exactly what Dennis
Raider said to me.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
They called me the other night. He said I never
said I wasn't a killer, and I told him, I said, well,
it's not good enough. It's not good enough for you
to tell me that you're not a killer if you're
not gonna tell me who you killed.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
In February twenty twenty four, Lenny called me one afternoon.
I waited a day and called him back. You called
me the other day. I was wondering, what's going on?
Speaker 7 (42:13):
Who is this?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
This is em William Phelps. We talked a while ago.
I'm an investigative journalist looking at Danis Stidham's case. I
called you and we recorded a phone call from my
podcast and I saw that you called, so I was
wondering what's up.
Speaker 7 (42:30):
I probably just missed all in the morning thing.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Oh you didn't want to talk?
Speaker 7 (42:35):
Uh wh I should? I don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
You don't know anything about those cases.
Speaker 7 (42:42):
I don't really anything.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Have you spoke to police lately or anybody like that
or me recently within the past six months year.
Speaker 7 (42:53):
I told you to somebody the other day.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Oh you did what you have to say?
Speaker 7 (42:58):
She was er the case?
Speaker 8 (43:01):
Sure, I said, no, well there or they instill of
be either.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So you know, Danas Stidham, we were talking before and
you said you didn't have anything to do with that.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
No, I didn't. I got blamed for it. I tell
you that advertation in southwest Missouri.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
How did it ruin your reputation?
Speaker 7 (43:26):
Because it was I did.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Nobody even knew the guy had been questioned. His name,
unlike Mike McMillan's, was never brought into the case publicly.
That's just more bullshit spewing from the mouth of a
guy who spewed a lot of it and likes to
play games. What about the we were talking about the
crime scene?
Speaker 8 (43:48):
I did not talk to you anybody else because I
don't know anything. You're not too bright either, something. I
don't know anything. I've told you that time time again.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Your name is on a lot of the reports. How
come they came after you so hard? They searched your
house as well? In your car.
Speaker 7 (44:09):
Right right right? That didn't be a damp thing.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Well they found blood in your station wagon in the
front seat.
Speaker 7 (44:19):
Now, if I kills them anything, i'd load them in
the front seat.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
I don't know. I'm not a killer, Oh not either,
are you?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
What?
Speaker 8 (44:30):
I just get to tell you, you're not too damn brother?
If you don't understand English.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
What about the bindings they took from your house, rope wire,
that sort of thing.
Speaker 7 (44:45):
Big deal. A lot of people have ropes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
In the house, ropes with a murder victim's DNA on it.
Speaker 7 (44:55):
It wasn't.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I think that's yet to be the determined.
Speaker 7 (45:02):
What the hell you told her me for? Well?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You called me, so I'm calling you back, and I'm
asking you why you called. You wanted to talk to me.
I'm just being respectful here, you know. I want I
want your your opinion, I want your voice and what
I'm working on so you can explain yourself. That's all
your explain myself. They questioned you a number of times.
(45:25):
They questioned your ex wife, you know, your kids. They
looked at your background.
Speaker 7 (45:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
They searched your house. They searched your vehicles.
Speaker 7 (45:34):
Weather fine, weather fun.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
They found blood in your station wagon.
Speaker 7 (45:40):
Who's blood?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, you tell me, why would you have a bunch
of blood on the carpet of your station wagon. I've
seen photographs of it. That's a lot of blood. So
where would that blood come from?
Speaker 7 (45:55):
Who knows? You know?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
You it's your car. If there was blood I found
in my car, I'd know where it came from.
Speaker 7 (46:03):
Well you would, Bud would how come? Why is there.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Because it's your vehicle?
Speaker 7 (46:11):
Big deal?
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I believe there was blood also in the back seat
of the car. So it is that Dana Didam's blood.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
Blood?
Speaker 7 (46:22):
Unpagging house? Who there's blood where you're pegging house?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Is that danas Didam's blood?
Speaker 7 (46:32):
Hasa know? Is it your blood?
Speaker 1 (46:36):
It's not my blood?
Speaker 8 (46:38):
How do you know?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
It was a stupid comeback and he knew it. You
might be wondering if that blood was ever tested. I
asked the BCSO and despite luminol tests showing blood all
over the place inside his vehicle, which the crime scene
photos I have depict, as well as indications of blood
clean up. I was told there was not enough to test.
(47:03):
Lenny was combative this time around. I'll give him that,
so I decided to touch upon the subject which had
caused him so much anxiety last time. See if I
got the same response. What about the Beal Road crime
scene where she was found? We were talking about that before.
Did you ever go walking through that woods or did
you hunt there or anything more of the same silence
(47:28):
and noises. Hello, I think you went quiet last time
we talked about Beal Road in the woods there. From
what I'm told, they have your DNA found out there.
I think this happened last time we chatted. I asked
you about Beal Road and the crime scene where Dana
(47:48):
was found, and last time he got sick. This time
you're just silent. I guess I'm gonna hang up now
if you don't want to talk. You have my number.
You called me so oh. It's rare that as you
(48:13):
work on cold cases in the capacity I do, a
case breaks wide open for you as you are investigating.
But that is what happened as I worked on this
final episode. In early March twenty twenty four, Detective Lorie
Howard and Detective Ronda Wise, with the help of others,
(48:35):
finally solved and officially closed Shauna Garber's murder, and what
was first thought to be a gruesome manner of death
as I had mentioned, turned out to be false. Shauna's
breasts were not mutilated after all, Thank god for small mercies.
(48:56):
I had been told about this new suspect, Telfy Reeves
during the summer of twenty twenty three. The guy was
a real shit bag and hit every marker your average
psychopath would.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
There was never any manner of death in the autopsy report.
The strangulation was supposition based on a lack of other things.
But yes, having worked a great deal my partner, Deputy Wise,
and I and especially lately, i'd say within the last
six months, we have spent every day, all day long
(49:35):
working on this and the reason is because we developed
a suspect. That suspect is no longer alive, unfortunately, but
what it did do when he passed, it opened some
doors for people to come forward that wouldn't come forward
prior to So this suspect in Shawna's case, and now
(50:00):
I'm just gonna call him tr but I anticipate a
press release coming forward very soon, so he is now
a suspect. I now have people talking.
Speaker 7 (50:15):
I have.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Finally, I think, I say, I but we have placed
it and put it all together in the puzzle that
it is, and I think we got it.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
That press release did come on March twenty first, twenty
twenty four, and this narrative you were about to hear
regarding Shawna's murder fell in line with Shauna seemingly being
in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the
devil lurking in the shadows. We've discussed the likelihood and
(50:48):
we now believed that there is likely no connection to
Dana's case.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
What we believe happened to Shauna. She aged out of
the foster care system, and as we found out, she
was adopted early on, somewhere around the age of six
her adoptive parents. We call it a failed adoption because
Shauna had a lot of mental and a lot of
(51:17):
physical problems. She went back into the foster care system
somewhere around eighty five eighty four eighty five eighty six.
She left a foster care situation. The caseworker is known
to have told family members that she was going to
go stay in Oklahoma, which was a piece we didn't
(51:39):
have for a long time. But she was going to
go stay in Oklahoma because she had family there. We
searched to a dead end basically on the family members
in Oklahoma, which made me at first question it. But
then I realized, we're probably not talking about her biological family.
We're not even talking about her adopted family. More than likely,
(52:01):
we're talking about her last foster care family's extended family,
because that's really all she had. So she winds up
in Oklahoma, interestingly enough, in the Vanita Claremore area, which
is not too far from the Missouri line. We later
(52:22):
learned that she was being transported via a work program
via van back and forth to a job. Now we
were initially giving bad information, which threw us off again.
We were told that it was a different area, that
this was in Kansas. It wasn't. But we figured out
(52:43):
that the van that she was taking back and forth
from the Vanita Claremore area was taking her more than
likely to Hudson Foods. Hudson Foods was bought out and
is now Tyson Foods, but it has always been in
the Missouri area. It's in McDonald County. It actually is
(53:08):
less than maybe two miles a mile and a half
from where she was dumped. That van was taking her
back and forth from the Word program back to where
she was staying in the Vanita Claremore area. However, on
one occasion at least she wasn't on the van. I
(53:28):
don't know exactly what happened, but she didn't wind up there,
and we were told by a witness that says t
R picked her up while she was walking along that highway,
which is consistent. Everybody walks Highway fifty nine going from
(53:48):
Tyson's nol or Hudson Foods nol Over to where she
would have been found walking and where we were told
she was picked up, so that's all consistent.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
There are no pictures of Shanna Garber from her childhood
teen years or later, save for one photo when she
was about four years old. Her toothless smile, short hair,
and overall joyous expression obscuring horrendous abuse before she had
even entered into the foster care system. By March twenty
(54:24):
twenty four, Laurie had finally latched onto, at least partially,
one of the ghosts she had been chasing for fifteen
long years. Here's Detective Laurie Howard again.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
The other thing we have put together, Ginger Blue, especially
in the nineties, was a beautiful vacation spot. It had
a gorgeous inn. It was a thriving place, had a
restaurant and a place to stay. But towards the early nineties,
I should say, back up in, say, in the eighties,
(55:02):
it was flourishing, but when you got to that nineties area,
it had gone downhill some And she, Shauna had a
material that was in her pocket. I looked at that
material for a really long time and determined that it
was a cloth napkin. And I couldn't never understand why
(55:23):
she would have a cloth napkin in her pocket, unless
she was working at a restaurant, or perhaps she was hungry,
grabbed a roll, grabbed bread and put it in her pocket. Together,
we know that she had a towel wrapped around her
head in coax cable. Right that towel was It's consistent
(55:45):
with the kind of towel, the color of towel that
they had at the inn. They also had an old
TV system. Of course, back then cable TV with a
short cox cable attached to each one of the rooms,
each TV that was in each room at the old inn.
So it's consistent to say that she at some point
(56:08):
in time had ended up there around that octoberish timeframe.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Did tr work at that place?
Speaker 2 (56:16):
He didn't work there, but he passed it every day.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
There was the answer to the coaxial cable and towel
wrapped around Shawna's head.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
That stretch of highway, you really just can't get very
far without going one direction or the other on that
stretch of highway connects Well fifty nine runs all the
way from Anderson all the way through to knowl and
on end to Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
So he picked her up on the road while she
was hitchhiking or something.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Well, she was walking, and I don't know if she
was if she had missed the van and she was
wanting to stay in that area, if she literally was
just looking for a place to stay for that night,
or if she was trying to get it job there.
That's still kind of a mystery why she was walking
that night, because the van would have picked her up,
(57:06):
you know, dropped her off in the morning and picked
her up in the evening after the shift. Could have
been that she just was tired of working and tired
of living where she was living and opted to go
a different route.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
And tr You know a lot about him, and not
a great deal. He was a bad guy, am I right?
Speaker 4 (57:24):
It was a.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
Terrible I have one witness, five sources, and I personally
knew the man and everybody that has ever known him,
and I'm going to be one of those those people.
He was evil, He was pure evil. He ran drugs,
(57:46):
He used drugs all of his life. He had two
children that passed from gunshot wounds. He had an ex
wife that had a hillacious life by all accounts, I mean,
just by digging into his life with her. So I
can't imagine having this person around me. And now I
(58:08):
can imagine why nobody really wanted to speak, right, because
why would you?
Speaker 1 (58:15):
I mean, Shauna crossed paths with the devil.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
She did, She most certainly did. And you know what,
of course she would, of course she would yea if
there was a wrong turn. The girl to icket through
no fault of.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Her own, right, the invisible girl.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
She's completely invisible and I say that because there's no
one cared enough to even take a picture of her.
And I don't know why that bothers me so, but
it does.
Speaker 11 (58:52):
Yeah, Yeah, And so you develop information that trs her
up and what happens.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
He has a person of interest with him at the time,
we were able to determine through both a witness and
other sources. Now five other sources, we've been able to
corroborate this story that he takes her. Now, remember, this
is a drug fueled frenzy, spun out mess with somebody
(59:29):
that I've been told is almost bipolar, can be seemingly
somewhat normal, and then just angry, so angry that you're
terrified to be in his presence. So he picks her
up along with another and he takes her up the
road where by the way he lives, you can see
(59:51):
his home by looking directly across from where she is,
and he binds her with what they have in the
back of the vehicle. I think the cox cable was
done initially to wrap her face so she wouldn't see
(01:00:13):
what was happening, so she wouldn't see where they were going,
so she wouldn't see where she was Because I don't
think he cared whether he saw her face and how
afraid she might have been. I've been told that that
just would have made things better for him, So I
believe he did it to keep her from knowing where
she was going. I think he took the towel. From
(01:00:34):
the end, he used the cox cable, which I always
thought was odd. Couldn't figure out why anybody, especially somebody
that's a serial killer or basically a farm boy, either
one somebody local, You wouldn't tie somebody with cox cable.
It's the worst possible medium. But I think he did
it just because he didn't have anything else at the time.
(01:00:55):
Put it across her face and neck, and that's where
that entered in. Then also from the end, she had
the napkin in her pocket. He took her up to
the road. They tied her the rest of the way
with what they had in the back of the vehicle.
I now know who that vehicle belongs to, which was
a hang up for a while. They raped her and
(01:01:21):
she was screaming so badly, and so it breaks my heart.
But she was literally screaming so much that you could
hear the echo down the valley, and it scared them.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
This explains the screams on Halloween. Laurie Howard and Ronda
Wise spoke to six different sources, none of whom knew
each other, each telling the same story. This is how
we know we have the absolute truth. This next part
from me exemplifies and truly displays the sociopath's absolute pathology.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Who are and so my witness says that he's laughing
as he's telling this story later on in the evening,
But they start to get nervous because somebody. They know
that there's a party down the hill, they know that
it's a bunch of kids, they know it's a Halloween.
But they start to get They start to get nervous.
(01:02:21):
So he overdoses her, which, by the way, come to
find out, is a pretty standard practice because I'm told
this wasn't his first victim.
Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
So he gives her a hot shot.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
He gives her a hot.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Shot, and then what does he do.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
He I have My witness states that she believes and
this is according to what tr says, that he props
her up, and she says she she thinks that it
would have been on an old spickett, an old water spigut.
(01:03:00):
I don't know I can't confirm that, so I don't
really want to say that that's the case. But essentially
she's propped up somehow. Why I don't know.
Speaker 7 (01:03:14):
And then.
Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
T R and person of interests leave. They then go
and talk to someone else and they're talking about everything
that they just did to her, and they're laughing and
they think it's funny, and they're reliving every moment. Now,
remember this just happened. And so what happens the next morning?
(01:03:41):
My witness goes next door or I should say, up
the hill, and sure enough, she sees everything that she
thought she.
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Would see, and Shawna was dead.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Shauna was dead.
Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
And did they mutilate her at all?
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
No? The story that was given by one source stated
that she had her breasts removed or sliced. I've had
more than one source come forward with TR and say no,
he did not cut her breast off.
Speaker 11 (01:04:21):
Okay, thank god for small things.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
So wow, So yeah, I can understand why witnesses would
have been afraid of coming forward until he died.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
They were terrified.
Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
And he died a horrible death, right, I mean, he
died in an accident a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
He did, he died in a vehicle accident. I'm told
it was a horrible death good and you know what,
I'm okay with that. And I know that sounds.
Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Callous, No it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
But but on the other hand, my feelings for Shauna
and in any case that I work, but Shawna in particular,
and I'm told I look like Shawna.
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Shawna was like the daughter to you.
Speaker 7 (01:05:07):
She was.
Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
She absolutely was. I took her with me everywhere I went.
You did, and that's because I didn't want to lose
her again. I had to find her in the first.
Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Place, and you solved the case. Nathan Smith was no
longer the Bentonville prosecutor. He left the office during the
time I began this case years ago and finished my
work in twenty twenty four, taking a job on Walmart's
legal team. But the last time I spoke to him
about the cases, he said a few things that I
(01:05:39):
think sum up this season very well.
Speaker 10 (01:05:44):
Well, Look, I think that first of all, I appreciate
you doing the story, and I know there's a lot
of cases around the country that are cold and have
families that the one answer is just as badly, but
it is so important for these cases to not be
Forgod and to not be just shelved. And so one
(01:06:05):
of the things important is there could be someone listening
who knows something, who knows someone, who is related to
someone that maybe their entire family thinks, you know what,
he has always acted very suspiciously and has all these connections,
and I would just for the sake of Dani's family,
I would just beg them to get that information to
(01:06:25):
law enforcement or to someone who can use it, because
oftentimes in cases like this, it can be small things
that make the difference. It can be a small key
that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one
knew was there. And we have to value human life
and we can't simply forget about it because it's old
and it hasn't been solved yet.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Finding answers and resolution in cold cases requires persistence and patience.
In the end, as one case was solved, the other
heading in that direction, I hold on to hope that
someday soon Dana Didham's family will get what they deserve justice.
(01:07:11):
Subscribe and foul the show to keep up with bonus
episodes coming soon. If you appreciate the work I do
on Paper Ghosts, follow my other podcast, Crossing the line
with em William Phelps, where I approach new cases each
week in a similar fashion. I want to thank every
one of my sources and those who took the time
(01:07:32):
to help sit in for an interview or discuss the
case with me. I can't say enough how much journalist
Brandon Howard helped me out, and I thank him immensely
for it. I also want to thank my Paper Ghost
production team, Catherine Law, Rose Bachi, Matt Russell, Brandon Dicker.
(01:07:54):
Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by
me Em William Phelps, grip consulting by Rose Bachi, sound
design by Matt Russeller, executive production by Catherine Law, and
audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Taka Boom Productions.
The series theme number four four to two is written
(01:08:15):
and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo
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