January 19, 2022 • 28 mins
It’s been more than a year since season one aired, but the scores of tips regarding Janice Pockett, Lisa White, Debbie Spickler, Susan LaRosa, and Irene LaRosa have only continued. The Connecticut State Police have once again gone radio silent so we return to Crystal Lake with some new experts and equipment to search for more answers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
My name is m Williams Phelps. This is Paper Ghosts,
a Season one update. It's been more than a year
(00:30):
since Season one of Paper Ghosts aired, and whether it
be a text or tweet, or even just a drive
around my own neighborhood, not a day goes by that
I still don't think about the young girls and women
who went missing in my hometown so many years ago.
Like any cold case investigation, the work never stops. Season
(00:53):
one may have come to an end, but the scores
of tips and queries I've received an email, social media messages,
and phone calls have only continued, not only to me,
but also to the Vernon, Connecticut Police Department and talland County,
Connecticut States Attorney's Office responsible for investigating the cases of
(01:13):
Janice Pocket, Lisa White, Debbie Spickler, Susan LaRosa, and Irene LaRosa.
I thought it was time for an update on what's
happened since the last episode air, talk about where things
currently stand, discussed the tips that have come in, and
respond to some of the unanswered questions the reinvestigation raised.
(01:38):
The first person I knew I wanted to speak with
was the man who oversaw a lot of the investigative
work in several of the cases, and whose voice can
be heard throughout much of season one, Lieutenant Bill Meyer.
After many years working with the Vernon Police, several of
which were spent heading up the Major Crimes Unit. Bill
has since retired from his life in law enforcement, but
(02:01):
the man can't stay away from his work. He maintains
a close relationship with his old department, a proximity that
has provided him with information and updates on his former cases. So,
I mean, since the podcast is aired, what's happened with
the Vernon Police Department in these cases? Bill? The podcast
(02:24):
has generated a lot of interest. Again, in the case,
we've received dozens of tips, uh and and we're following
up working jointly with the State Police in the States
Attorney's Office? Has the podcast helped in regard to pushing
the case forward? Moving the needle? The wide publicity across
the country certainly helps because we don't know who has
(02:46):
the information that we need and they could live anywhere.
In reaching such a broad audience has been very helpful
for investigators not working these cases. I'd like to say
that a smoking gun tip came in and resolved one
or more of the cases. But of course that is
not how cold case investigation unfolds. The fact is this
is a time consuming process, more than most people can understand.
(03:11):
It's a hurry up and weight scenario that plagues so
many of these cases, which I have run into time
and again. I personally can only move things so far.
Then it's up to law enforcement, and law enforcement has
contemporary priorities and budget restrictions prohibiting them from dedicating any
serious time or person power to these older cases. I
(03:37):
asked Bill what he thought was going to happen next.
He gave me the stock reply, we don't know. I mean,
these girls advantage without a trace, and we've been working
since they disappeared to try and find them, and we're
looking for answers. What else can the guys say? Really,
(03:57):
what I can report is that the Conecticut State Police
did make a big push to investigate the Crystal Lake
areas I focused on in the podcast, after hearing about
the canine search featured in the show. The state Police
brought in their own dogs and conducted a search of
their own. They marked several areas of interest. They made
(04:20):
their presence known. They had the Wendells, the couple who
owns the property where the searches took place, believing they
were interested in results. Yet after the final podcast episode air,
the State Police disappeared once again stopped returning calls. And
I am not saying this to diss them in any way.
(04:41):
This is a fact. It's what happened. The Window family,
who were also featured in season one, were extremely disappointed.
They wanted to see some sort of action based on
where the State Police canines and my canines hit. The
State Police even told them they were going to bring
in ground penetrating radar to take a closer look underground. Sadly,
(05:07):
they did nothing, So once again I decided to do
the work myself. It's Peter hy right, let's see you.
(05:47):
Ground penetrating radar, or GPR, as it's more commonly called.
It's a nondestructive way to search underground and detect buried
or hidden remains. It is a fairly precise scientific way
of searching underground without digging holes and spending days, even
weeks sifting through dirt and rocks like an archaeologist hoping
(06:08):
to find fragments of a body. The idea is to
detect what are called subsurface caves in the underground landscape
using radiograms to penetrate the earth. As crime scene expert
Peter Valentin explained to me, cold case investigation or reinvestigating
cases that seem to have run their course, is tedious work.
(06:29):
But there are tasks that can be done with these
cold cases. And you know this better than anybody. If
you assume that what the initial investigators did was correct,
you're gonna wind up at the same dead end they
did right, And so you have to go back and
reread everything and see what's wrong with it, or to
(06:50):
you know, reinterview those people and listen for what never
made it into the reports the first six times they
were written, and also to reinterview people. Peter is an
old friend. He's had a distinguished career with the Connecticut
State Police and retired in two thousand eleven as a
(07:10):
detective from the Major Crime Squad. His work encompassed homicide,
suspicious death, and major crime scene investigations. He was a
member of Connecticut's elite Urban Search and Rescue team, which
means he'd had extensive training in detecting criminal activity at
a major disaster, and has functioned as a rescue specialist
(07:33):
focused on saving injured and trapped to victims. Peter now
teaches at the Henry C. Lee College of Criminal Justice
and Forensic Sciences at the University of New Haven. After
listening to season one, it was Peter's colleague Dr Claire Glenn,
who I have also known for many years, who offered
up the institute's ground penetrating radar as a way for
(07:56):
us to search the Wendell property. So one day were
the summer, we all met up at the Wendell property.
So this stuff looks pretty basic. Uh, the equipment, Yeah,
it's old school, but it's definitely you know what it is.
(08:17):
It's just there's a limit to what you can do.
When you're looking into the ground. It's kind of difficult,
and reading it must be difficult. Yeah, that's actually so.
I was actually practicing yesterday in my neighborhood and just
looking at things making sure that I'm reading that the
right way. Does it work like a like say, a
(08:38):
fish finder, same same idea cruder than that? Really? Oh yeah,
wait till you see the the energies, You'll see it's
just what the hell is that good? I don't know.
And then you take it back to the lab and
you look at it. So, yeah, what I'm gonna do
is I'm gonna take pictures of it. We're gonna market
if if it's something really good, we can market if
we need to. But I think since it's so localized,
(08:58):
what you have there is good enough. Based on where
the canines I arranged to come up in showed the
most interest. There are two main areas were focused on.
Checking out near that a frame well and the flower
memorial I mentioned in season one. Starting at the well,
there's a large piece of rock directly behind it where
(09:20):
the dogs hit it juts out into a ledge. Think
of Volkswagen sized boulder that we're thinking is actually the
tip of a larger boulder buried under ground. I watch
as Peter begins tracing a pattern with the GPR equipment
north to south, east to west, working towards the place
(09:41):
marker where the dogs hit on. I mean, so you're
just running that over the ground like you're cutting the lawn,
but very very very slowly. And as you can see
with each pass, you see how yeah there's a change. Yeah,
And it gives you the depth approximate FET so you're
(10:06):
closer to year should see the ledge, right, they're looking
at that right there. See that's constant from two to five,
from half to five. How deep is a resolution? But uh,
(10:29):
where we are right now, probably twelve feet. Most bodies
are not buried more than eighteen inches underground a killer
and in these cases we're talking about a hasty type
of burial. If there are bodies near Crystal Lake, is
not going to dig a two, three or six ft
grave to bury a body. That only happens in the movies. Therefore,
(10:53):
GPR can be a highly effective tool to search a
wide area underground and determine the best spots Fenny to
perform an excavation. The average body is no more than
eighteen inches. No one's taking six f I was gonna say,
if I didn't even make a bad joke about Connecticut,
you don't even go that far because you're just constantly
hitting fieldstone. So what ends up happening is it's six
(11:16):
inches below the ground and you just have field stone
all over the top of them. Peter outlines the reality
of all this that we are basically looking for a
needle in a haystack out here, And as we discussed
it further, Peter mentions that if the a frame well,
which is where the original tip from the witness was centered,
(11:36):
is now cemented all the way down. The most likely
scenario is that a body could have been buried under
that cement, if it was placed there at all, or
has just washed away. Just as we're ready to move on,
Peter's attention is drawn to an image on the screen.
(11:59):
All I'm seeing something at about two ft You see
that right there here, right, So that's that's the depth
we're interested in. Let's get back to it there, you're
right right there. Okay, that looks like a cylindrical object
(12:22):
that I'm right over the top of. It's most likely
a route. And as these cases have gone for me
over the past fifteen years. Now, just as a mild
pang of excitement builds, it is quickly quashed by reality.
Peter is content and telling me that he has thoroughly
(12:42):
radar the area A few times I might add and that, well,
I'll let him explain. Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable here that
there's nothing in this area to be concerned about. So
he's had We have water, table, we have ledge, we
have roots, but we have no bodies. Good body parts,
if they are, they're scattered. You said that you would
(13:04):
you would see something localized with a shape to it,
and that's not here. There's nothing in this area. So
that's an answer. Not finding anything is indeed an answer,
not the one we want, but it's an answer. Nonetheless.
(13:25):
If you recall from the final episode of season one,
the Connecticut State Police decided to bring out their own
search dogs to give the appearance of working on the
case and not to be outdone by some investigative journalist dude,
as if this is some sort of competition. And look,
I get it, the state police have to be political
(13:46):
and at least make it seem like they are working
on the cases. But in my world, it's frustrating as
all hell, just like how my emails informing the current
lead detective of what Peter and I were doing out
here have been completely ignored. I mean, look, I'm in
this for the same outcome because, honestly, save her a
(14:07):
complete omission, there cannot be any arrest made in any
of these cases. There is zero evidence. The conclusion, if possible,
is finding one of the girls and bringing her home.
So for me, all the state police nonsense is just noise.
We could work together, but ego in power and control
(14:29):
get in the way of that. Back to Crystal Lake,
Peter and I, along with Dr. Claire Glenn and property
owner Ken Wendell, move over to where the Connecticut State
Police canines hit an area of flat land. I'd say
about fifty feet from the area my dog's hit on,
(14:52):
so it's not too far. And as Peter gets going,
running is contraption over the forest bed. As he is
buffing a wax floor, things get somewhat exciting as he
begins to see something very interesting. So this next area
here is where the State Police dogs hit and it's
marked and I don't know, there's definitely something that what's
(15:18):
under here again, we don't know. That's where the doors alerted.
You see all that. So there's there's, there's, there's all
kinds of activity there. It's like an opening down there somewhere.
(15:40):
And this is different too, This isn't that's an anomaly. Yeah,
Peter is definitely seeing something he has not seen all day,
and it interests him greatly. I've not seen this type
of concerned or concentrated focus on his face. But do
you see how they're the one that wasn't a great
(16:01):
feet is gone? Yeah, right, there's something here. Now it's
not so well, bring this back over here. There it is.
What Peter means is that he runs the GPR over
the area. An object underground, long and cylindrical, becomes clear
and then disappears as he runs the machine over it
(16:22):
a different way. Boom, there it is again, about a
foot long. We don't say it, but looking at it,
one could draw the conclusion this is a femur bump.
It has that same shape our ground and said, right
(16:47):
over there's bodies and car. After talking about it, we
decided to dig. There's a nervous energy among us. None
of us expect to find anything, but you just never know.
And it's all. It wasn't just roots. Ken Wendell continues digging,
(17:13):
and as he meanders the shovel over thick and long roots,
he comes across a rather long, skinny rock and Peter
makes an observation, I mean that's what I was seeing. Yeah,
you know, good, you can actually hear Ken hit a
(17:35):
rock here, That's what I was seeing. Keep working towards this.
Oh yeah, I don't think you need to go much
further than that. And so what has been a common
theme for the past twelve years as I investigated these
cases continues. What it first seemed promising like maybe a
(17:58):
break leading somewhere turns into another stone blocking a path.
We searched several more areas, including the so called bunker
area near where the Irene LaRosa Flower Memorial is located,
an area the search dogs were not interested in, and
we found absolutely nothing. I am disappointed, yet in some
(18:23):
respects I am happy to report that, after all we
did on the Wendell property and across the street closer
to the LaRosa property, I do not believe any of
the girls are in this area, and if they were
at one time, fifty years has taken that prospect away.
(18:55):
I thought i'd end this update with the conversational Q
and A, facilitated by my executive producer, Christina Everett, who
is the wizard behind the curtain really with all things
paper Ghosts and my new weekly true crime podcast, Crossing
the Line with Them William Phelps. Christina was instrumental in
keeping me in check and keeping me on track during
(19:16):
season one and played the same role in season two,
which you might have heard her on Thanks. So I'm
excited to be here and to be able to talk
to you about you know, what happened behind the scenes
of Paper Ghosts. And We've gotten a lot of feedback
and emails, and I'd love to talk to you know
specifically about you know, what's the general consensus of the
(19:39):
tips that you receive. Well, the tips I feel are legit.
The problem is time someone will tell me that forty
five years ago a man with a similar description to
those in the podcast pulled over a similar vehicle and
tried to abduct me. The other popular tip sadly my
(20:02):
father lived in the area and molested me and other
kids in the neighborhood. I mean, this is horrible. I
I feel for these people, but there's really not much
I can do with that information. All of these men
are dead, and with a fifty year old potential abduction tip,
there's nothing to go on along those lines. Didn't you
(20:22):
get a solid tip though about Bob Larrossa. Boy? Did
I ever? A former cop? He's working in the Rockville
near the LaRosa home. On the evening Susan LaRosa went missing.
He contacts me and I quote from seventy n I
was a Vernon police officer. I knew Bob lar Rosa
(20:45):
on the day that Bob's wife, Susan went missing. I
was assigned the police department's portable number one beat, which
was foot patrol in the Rockville section of town. It
was some time after five pm that day. This source
goes on to explain to me it wasn't even dark
out yet. He says he's walking near the old water
(21:07):
Fountain in the rock Fill section, which is a five
minute walk from the Larrosso apartment. Bob LaRosa approaches him.
Bob appeared very upset, acting nervous, quote almost in panic mode.
Bob said he wanted to report his wife missing, further
stating she had gone to the store earlier and hasn't
(21:30):
returned home yet. My source says I then told Bobby
he'd have to wait twenty four hours before he could
make an official missing person report. I can't recall his response,
but it always bothered me the way he acted that day,
more nervous that maybe he knew where Susan was. I mean,
I'm thinking about this, and it's like, so Susan goes
(21:52):
out to the store, she doesn't come back for an
hour or so, and Bob's already wanting to report her missing.
That's strange to me. Yeah, well, what about our other
man in question, the witness. Did you get any other
additional information or tips about him? I did get some
bonus information, if you will, about the witness. Someone close
(22:14):
to the witness told me about a day when the
witness he just up and left town without telling anyone.
Here's what my source said. Quote Suddenly, without warning or
any sort of announcement, he was gone. No one in
the family knew where he went or why he left.
The sudden exit from town baffled everyone who knew them
(22:36):
end quote. So the witness's disappearance was a mystery to
those he was closest to. And it's right after the
witness's departure from town that my source here quote began
hearing family members make comments about Susan and Bob the Rosa,
and he recalls one of the family members saying something
(22:57):
about the witness quote probably had something to do with
that LaRosa woman. I mean. And it's things like this
that I wish we were able to include in the show,
but sometimes it was a matter of timing or you know,
not being able to firm up enough sources to include it.
(23:18):
So I'm glad we can address that now. Here's the thing.
This source also told me that Bob LaRosa and the
witness were quote tied to the hip. He remembers hearing
from family that the two of them were the last
to see some girl at a party in Rockville one night,
and then she was missing. That's remarkable. And to clarify,
(23:44):
you're not just saying this like based off of one
single email. I mean, you really research every single tip
that you get, and the things that you share are
not just gossip. So are there any other tips that
you received that we haven't touched on? You know? I
I received other tips I think embrace a bit of
(24:04):
validity within the scope of the cases too, but these
tips require a lot more vetting and further investigation. I
did also receive, you know, several psychic tips, which I
do not sorry, place any relevance in the One thing
I do want to say, and this is important to
me here at this stage of the investigation, I'm just
(24:26):
so sorry to all of those who have written in
and were abused by a man in your life physically, sexually,
or emotionally. I'm just so sorry this happened to you.
I hear you. I am listening, and your voice is
counted with me. It takes a lot to raise your
hand and speak about this stuff, and I'm glad you
(24:48):
did so. Shifting gears. Let's talk about the Connecticut State Police,
you know, going back to our last episode and the
work that you did with the search dogs and the
local authorities did and didn't do. How has that gone
with you? Have you heard anything from them. I've not
heard a word from the State Police. They seem to
(25:09):
think I don't know that we are in some sort
of competition, or that I harbor resentments against them, or
I'm holding back information, none of which is true. I
emailed the lead detective in this case after Peter Valentine
and Dr. Claire Glenn and Ken Wendell and myself went
(25:34):
up in the woods to do the ground penetrating radar,
and I shared with the detective Peter's findings and his thoughts,
et cetera. Now this lead detective and Peter know each
other very well, in fact that they work together. I
never got a response, So that says a lot to me.
(25:57):
My job has always been to report what I feel
is worthy of reporting. I don't get in the State
Police's way. I don't hold information from them and some
people that you really don't hold information from our those
closest to the victims, specifically the sisters we got married,
Janna's Pocket sister, April Lisa White sister, and Terry Shanks
(26:19):
Susan Leros's sister. You know, they were all huge parts
of season one. All of their stories greatly affected listeners
and myself included. You know, so have you talked to
them recently? What can you tell listeners about them? And
and really how has the podcast and the investigation affected
(26:41):
each of them. Today I went back and forth a
little bit with them about coming on this update episode,
and you know, I think they made the right decision
and just you know, letting it be. I mean, they
don't have to keep revisiting this stuff. It's it's with
them all day every day. To talk about it even
more now, I think would just be uh overwhelming. Well,
(27:03):
thanks for walking me through all of this. I know
these are some burning questions that a lot of listeners had,
so I'm glad we could take the time to address them.
With all of that said, I want listeners to know
that every email, phone, call, social media message regarding these cases,
even if you do not hear back from me is read, considered,
(27:27):
thoroughly vetted and checked out, and those tips or suggestions
deemed potentially helpful to any of the cases are handed
off to the right people in law enforcement. So please
keep sending them in. No matter how insignificant you might think,
the information you have is Every tip, no matter where
it leads, is one step closer to a resolution to
(27:48):
the families. I will continue to update the cases on
an as needed basis, and please subscribe to Crossing the
Line with m William Phelps. It's my new weekly podcast
with I Heart Radio. Finally, I want to thank every listener.
I am entirely humbled by your support of this podcast
(28:10):
as well as my other weekly show, Crossing the Line.
I have much more coming, so stay tuned. Paper Ghosts
is written and executive produced by me Am William Phelps
and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett. Audio editing and
mixing by a booze Afar thanks to Will Pearson at
(28:30):
I Heeart Radio. The series theme number four four two
is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
My name is m Williams Phelps. This is Paper Ghosts,
a Season one update. It's been more than a year
(00:30):
since Season one of Paper Ghosts aired, and whether it
be a text or tweet, or even just a drive
around my own neighborhood, not a day goes by that
I still don't think about the young girls and women
who went missing in my hometown so many years ago.
Like any cold case investigation, the work never stops. Season
(00:53):
one may have come to an end, but the scores
of tips and queries I've received an email, social media messages,
and phone calls have only continued, not only to me,
but also to the Vernon, Connecticut Police Department and talland County,
Connecticut States Attorney's Office responsible for investigating the cases of
(01:13):
Janice Pocket, Lisa White, Debbie Spickler, Susan LaRosa, and Irene LaRosa.
I thought it was time for an update on what's
happened since the last episode air, talk about where things
currently stand, discussed the tips that have come in, and
respond to some of the unanswered questions the reinvestigation raised.
(01:38):
The first person I knew I wanted to speak with
was the man who oversaw a lot of the investigative
work in several of the cases, and whose voice can
be heard throughout much of season one, Lieutenant Bill Meyer.
After many years working with the Vernon Police, several of
which were spent heading up the Major Crimes Unit. Bill
has since retired from his life in law enforcement, but
(02:01):
the man can't stay away from his work. He maintains
a close relationship with his old department, a proximity that
has provided him with information and updates on his former cases. So,
I mean, since the podcast is aired, what's happened with
the Vernon Police Department in these cases? Bill? The podcast
(02:24):
has generated a lot of interest. Again, in the case,
we've received dozens of tips, uh and and we're following
up working jointly with the State Police in the States
Attorney's Office? Has the podcast helped in regard to pushing
the case forward? Moving the needle? The wide publicity across
the country certainly helps because we don't know who has
(02:46):
the information that we need and they could live anywhere.
In reaching such a broad audience has been very helpful
for investigators not working these cases. I'd like to say
that a smoking gun tip came in and resolved one
or more of the cases. But of course that is
not how cold case investigation unfolds. The fact is this
is a time consuming process, more than most people can understand.
(03:11):
It's a hurry up and weight scenario that plagues so
many of these cases, which I have run into time
and again. I personally can only move things so far.
Then it's up to law enforcement, and law enforcement has
contemporary priorities and budget restrictions prohibiting them from dedicating any
serious time or person power to these older cases. I
(03:37):
asked Bill what he thought was going to happen next.
He gave me the stock reply, we don't know. I mean,
these girls advantage without a trace, and we've been working
since they disappeared to try and find them, and we're
looking for answers. What else can the guys say? Really,
(03:57):
what I can report is that the Conecticut State Police
did make a big push to investigate the Crystal Lake
areas I focused on in the podcast, after hearing about
the canine search featured in the show. The state Police
brought in their own dogs and conducted a search of
their own. They marked several areas of interest. They made
(04:20):
their presence known. They had the Wendells, the couple who
owns the property where the searches took place, believing they
were interested in results. Yet after the final podcast episode air,
the State Police disappeared once again stopped returning calls. And
I am not saying this to diss them in any way.
(04:41):
This is a fact. It's what happened. The Window family,
who were also featured in season one, were extremely disappointed.
They wanted to see some sort of action based on
where the State Police canines and my canines hit. The
State Police even told them they were going to bring
in ground penetrating radar to take a closer look underground. Sadly,
(05:07):
they did nothing, So once again I decided to do
the work myself. It's Peter hy right, let's see you.
(05:47):
Ground penetrating radar, or GPR, as it's more commonly called.
It's a nondestructive way to search underground and detect buried
or hidden remains. It is a fairly precise scientific way
of searching underground without digging holes and spending days, even
weeks sifting through dirt and rocks like an archaeologist hoping
(06:08):
to find fragments of a body. The idea is to
detect what are called subsurface caves in the underground landscape
using radiograms to penetrate the earth. As crime scene expert
Peter Valentin explained to me, cold case investigation or reinvestigating
cases that seem to have run their course, is tedious work.
(06:29):
But there are tasks that can be done with these
cold cases. And you know this better than anybody. If
you assume that what the initial investigators did was correct,
you're gonna wind up at the same dead end they
did right, And so you have to go back and
reread everything and see what's wrong with it, or to
(06:50):
you know, reinterview those people and listen for what never
made it into the reports the first six times they
were written, and also to reinterview people. Peter is an
old friend. He's had a distinguished career with the Connecticut
State Police and retired in two thousand eleven as a
(07:10):
detective from the Major Crime Squad. His work encompassed homicide,
suspicious death, and major crime scene investigations. He was a
member of Connecticut's elite Urban Search and Rescue team, which
means he'd had extensive training in detecting criminal activity at
a major disaster, and has functioned as a rescue specialist
(07:33):
focused on saving injured and trapped to victims. Peter now
teaches at the Henry C. Lee College of Criminal Justice
and Forensic Sciences at the University of New Haven. After
listening to season one, it was Peter's colleague Dr Claire Glenn,
who I have also known for many years, who offered
up the institute's ground penetrating radar as a way for
(07:56):
us to search the Wendell property. So one day were
the summer, we all met up at the Wendell property.
So this stuff looks pretty basic. Uh, the equipment, Yeah,
it's old school, but it's definitely you know what it is.
(08:17):
It's just there's a limit to what you can do.
When you're looking into the ground. It's kind of difficult,
and reading it must be difficult. Yeah, that's actually so.
I was actually practicing yesterday in my neighborhood and just
looking at things making sure that I'm reading that the
right way. Does it work like a like say, a
(08:38):
fish finder, same same idea cruder than that? Really? Oh yeah,
wait till you see the the energies, You'll see it's
just what the hell is that good? I don't know.
And then you take it back to the lab and
you look at it. So, yeah, what I'm gonna do
is I'm gonna take pictures of it. We're gonna market
if if it's something really good, we can market if
we need to. But I think since it's so localized,
(08:58):
what you have there is good enough. Based on where
the canines I arranged to come up in showed the
most interest. There are two main areas were focused on.
Checking out near that a frame well and the flower
memorial I mentioned in season one. Starting at the well,
there's a large piece of rock directly behind it where
(09:20):
the dogs hit it juts out into a ledge. Think
of Volkswagen sized boulder that we're thinking is actually the
tip of a larger boulder buried under ground. I watch
as Peter begins tracing a pattern with the GPR equipment
north to south, east to west, working towards the place
(09:41):
marker where the dogs hit on. I mean, so you're
just running that over the ground like you're cutting the lawn,
but very very very slowly. And as you can see
with each pass, you see how yeah there's a change. Yeah,
And it gives you the depth approximate FET so you're
(10:06):
closer to year should see the ledge, right, they're looking
at that right there. See that's constant from two to five,
from half to five. How deep is a resolution? But uh,
(10:29):
where we are right now, probably twelve feet. Most bodies
are not buried more than eighteen inches underground a killer
and in these cases we're talking about a hasty type
of burial. If there are bodies near Crystal Lake, is
not going to dig a two, three or six ft
grave to bury a body. That only happens in the movies. Therefore,
(10:53):
GPR can be a highly effective tool to search a
wide area underground and determine the best spots Fenny to
perform an excavation. The average body is no more than
eighteen inches. No one's taking six f I was gonna say,
if I didn't even make a bad joke about Connecticut,
you don't even go that far because you're just constantly
hitting fieldstone. So what ends up happening is it's six
(11:16):
inches below the ground and you just have field stone
all over the top of them. Peter outlines the reality
of all this that we are basically looking for a
needle in a haystack out here, And as we discussed
it further, Peter mentions that if the a frame well,
which is where the original tip from the witness was centered,
(11:36):
is now cemented all the way down. The most likely
scenario is that a body could have been buried under
that cement, if it was placed there at all, or
has just washed away. Just as we're ready to move on,
Peter's attention is drawn to an image on the screen.
(11:59):
All I'm seeing something at about two ft You see
that right there here, right, So that's that's the depth
we're interested in. Let's get back to it there, you're
right right there. Okay, that looks like a cylindrical object
(12:22):
that I'm right over the top of. It's most likely
a route. And as these cases have gone for me
over the past fifteen years. Now, just as a mild
pang of excitement builds, it is quickly quashed by reality.
Peter is content and telling me that he has thoroughly
(12:42):
radar the area A few times I might add and that, well,
I'll let him explain. Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable here that
there's nothing in this area to be concerned about. So
he's had We have water, table, we have ledge, we
have roots, but we have no bodies. Good body parts,
if they are, they're scattered. You said that you would
(13:04):
you would see something localized with a shape to it,
and that's not here. There's nothing in this area. So
that's an answer. Not finding anything is indeed an answer,
not the one we want, but it's an answer. Nonetheless.
(13:25):
If you recall from the final episode of season one,
the Connecticut State Police decided to bring out their own
search dogs to give the appearance of working on the
case and not to be outdone by some investigative journalist dude,
as if this is some sort of competition. And look,
I get it, the state police have to be political
(13:46):
and at least make it seem like they are working
on the cases. But in my world, it's frustrating as
all hell, just like how my emails informing the current
lead detective of what Peter and I were doing out
here have been completely ignored. I mean, look, I'm in
this for the same outcome because, honestly, save her a
(14:07):
complete omission, there cannot be any arrest made in any
of these cases. There is zero evidence. The conclusion, if possible,
is finding one of the girls and bringing her home.
So for me, all the state police nonsense is just noise.
We could work together, but ego in power and control
(14:29):
get in the way of that. Back to Crystal Lake,
Peter and I, along with Dr. Claire Glenn and property
owner Ken Wendell, move over to where the Connecticut State
Police canines hit an area of flat land. I'd say
about fifty feet from the area my dog's hit on,
(14:52):
so it's not too far. And as Peter gets going,
running is contraption over the forest bed. As he is
buffing a wax floor, things get somewhat exciting as he
begins to see something very interesting. So this next area
here is where the State Police dogs hit and it's
marked and I don't know, there's definitely something that what's
(15:18):
under here again, we don't know. That's where the doors alerted.
You see all that. So there's there's, there's, there's all
kinds of activity there. It's like an opening down there somewhere.
(15:40):
And this is different too, This isn't that's an anomaly. Yeah,
Peter is definitely seeing something he has not seen all day,
and it interests him greatly. I've not seen this type
of concerned or concentrated focus on his face. But do
you see how they're the one that wasn't a great
(16:01):
feet is gone? Yeah, right, there's something here. Now it's
not so well, bring this back over here. There it is.
What Peter means is that he runs the GPR over
the area. An object underground, long and cylindrical, becomes clear
and then disappears as he runs the machine over it
(16:22):
a different way. Boom, there it is again, about a
foot long. We don't say it, but looking at it,
one could draw the conclusion this is a femur bump.
It has that same shape our ground and said, right
(16:47):
over there's bodies and car. After talking about it, we
decided to dig. There's a nervous energy among us. None
of us expect to find anything, but you just never know.
And it's all. It wasn't just roots. Ken Wendell continues digging,
(17:13):
and as he meanders the shovel over thick and long roots,
he comes across a rather long, skinny rock and Peter
makes an observation, I mean that's what I was seeing. Yeah,
you know, good, you can actually hear Ken hit a
(17:35):
rock here, That's what I was seeing. Keep working towards this.
Oh yeah, I don't think you need to go much
further than that. And so what has been a common
theme for the past twelve years as I investigated these
cases continues. What it first seemed promising like maybe a
(17:58):
break leading somewhere turns into another stone blocking a path.
We searched several more areas, including the so called bunker
area near where the Irene LaRosa Flower Memorial is located,
an area the search dogs were not interested in, and
we found absolutely nothing. I am disappointed, yet in some
(18:23):
respects I am happy to report that, after all we
did on the Wendell property and across the street closer
to the LaRosa property, I do not believe any of
the girls are in this area, and if they were
at one time, fifty years has taken that prospect away.
(18:55):
I thought i'd end this update with the conversational Q
and A, facilitated by my executive producer, Christina Everett, who
is the wizard behind the curtain really with all things
paper Ghosts and my new weekly true crime podcast, Crossing
the Line with Them William Phelps. Christina was instrumental in
keeping me in check and keeping me on track during
(19:16):
season one and played the same role in season two,
which you might have heard her on Thanks. So I'm
excited to be here and to be able to talk
to you about you know, what happened behind the scenes
of Paper Ghosts. And We've gotten a lot of feedback
and emails, and I'd love to talk to you know
specifically about you know, what's the general consensus of the
(19:39):
tips that you receive. Well, the tips I feel are legit.
The problem is time someone will tell me that forty
five years ago a man with a similar description to
those in the podcast pulled over a similar vehicle and
tried to abduct me. The other popular tip sadly my
(20:02):
father lived in the area and molested me and other
kids in the neighborhood. I mean, this is horrible. I
I feel for these people, but there's really not much
I can do with that information. All of these men
are dead, and with a fifty year old potential abduction tip,
there's nothing to go on along those lines. Didn't you
(20:22):
get a solid tip though about Bob Larrossa. Boy? Did
I ever? A former cop? He's working in the Rockville
near the LaRosa home. On the evening Susan LaRosa went missing.
He contacts me and I quote from seventy n I
was a Vernon police officer. I knew Bob lar Rosa
(20:45):
on the day that Bob's wife, Susan went missing. I
was assigned the police department's portable number one beat, which
was foot patrol in the Rockville section of town. It
was some time after five pm that day. This source
goes on to explain to me it wasn't even dark
out yet. He says he's walking near the old water
(21:07):
Fountain in the rock Fill section, which is a five
minute walk from the Larrosso apartment. Bob LaRosa approaches him.
Bob appeared very upset, acting nervous, quote almost in panic mode.
Bob said he wanted to report his wife missing, further
stating she had gone to the store earlier and hasn't
(21:30):
returned home yet. My source says I then told Bobby
he'd have to wait twenty four hours before he could
make an official missing person report. I can't recall his response,
but it always bothered me the way he acted that day,
more nervous that maybe he knew where Susan was. I mean,
I'm thinking about this, and it's like, so Susan goes
(21:52):
out to the store, she doesn't come back for an
hour or so, and Bob's already wanting to report her missing.
That's strange to me. Yeah, well, what about our other
man in question, the witness. Did you get any other
additional information or tips about him? I did get some
bonus information, if you will, about the witness. Someone close
(22:14):
to the witness told me about a day when the
witness he just up and left town without telling anyone.
Here's what my source said. Quote Suddenly, without warning or
any sort of announcement, he was gone. No one in
the family knew where he went or why he left.
The sudden exit from town baffled everyone who knew them
(22:36):
end quote. So the witness's disappearance was a mystery to
those he was closest to. And it's right after the
witness's departure from town that my source here quote began
hearing family members make comments about Susan and Bob the Rosa,
and he recalls one of the family members saying something
(22:57):
about the witness quote probably had something to do with
that LaRosa woman. I mean. And it's things like this
that I wish we were able to include in the show,
but sometimes it was a matter of timing or you know,
not being able to firm up enough sources to include it.
(23:18):
So I'm glad we can address that now. Here's the thing.
This source also told me that Bob LaRosa and the
witness were quote tied to the hip. He remembers hearing
from family that the two of them were the last
to see some girl at a party in Rockville one night,
and then she was missing. That's remarkable. And to clarify,
(23:44):
you're not just saying this like based off of one
single email. I mean, you really research every single tip
that you get, and the things that you share are
not just gossip. So are there any other tips that
you received that we haven't touched on? You know? I
I received other tips I think embrace a bit of
(24:04):
validity within the scope of the cases too, but these
tips require a lot more vetting and further investigation. I
did also receive, you know, several psychic tips, which I
do not sorry, place any relevance in the One thing
I do want to say, and this is important to
me here at this stage of the investigation, I'm just
(24:26):
so sorry to all of those who have written in
and were abused by a man in your life physically, sexually,
or emotionally. I'm just so sorry this happened to you.
I hear you. I am listening, and your voice is
counted with me. It takes a lot to raise your
hand and speak about this stuff, and I'm glad you
(24:48):
did so. Shifting gears. Let's talk about the Connecticut State Police,
you know, going back to our last episode and the
work that you did with the search dogs and the
local authorities did and didn't do. How has that gone
with you? Have you heard anything from them. I've not
heard a word from the State Police. They seem to
(25:09):
think I don't know that we are in some sort
of competition, or that I harbor resentments against them, or
I'm holding back information, none of which is true. I
emailed the lead detective in this case after Peter Valentine
and Dr. Claire Glenn and Ken Wendell and myself went
(25:34):
up in the woods to do the ground penetrating radar,
and I shared with the detective Peter's findings and his thoughts,
et cetera. Now this lead detective and Peter know each
other very well, in fact that they work together. I
never got a response, So that says a lot to me.
(25:57):
My job has always been to report what I feel
is worthy of reporting. I don't get in the State
Police's way. I don't hold information from them and some
people that you really don't hold information from our those
closest to the victims, specifically the sisters we got married,
Janna's Pocket sister, April Lisa White sister, and Terry Shanks
(26:19):
Susan Leros's sister. You know, they were all huge parts
of season one. All of their stories greatly affected listeners
and myself included. You know, so have you talked to
them recently? What can you tell listeners about them? And
and really how has the podcast and the investigation affected
(26:41):
each of them. Today I went back and forth a
little bit with them about coming on this update episode,
and you know, I think they made the right decision
and just you know, letting it be. I mean, they
don't have to keep revisiting this stuff. It's it's with
them all day every day. To talk about it even
more now, I think would just be uh overwhelming. Well,
(27:03):
thanks for walking me through all of this. I know
these are some burning questions that a lot of listeners had,
so I'm glad we could take the time to address them.
With all of that said, I want listeners to know
that every email, phone, call, social media message regarding these cases,
even if you do not hear back from me is read, considered,
(27:27):
thoroughly vetted and checked out, and those tips or suggestions
deemed potentially helpful to any of the cases are handed
off to the right people in law enforcement. So please
keep sending them in. No matter how insignificant you might think,
the information you have is Every tip, no matter where
it leads, is one step closer to a resolution to
(27:48):
the families. I will continue to update the cases on
an as needed basis, and please subscribe to Crossing the
Line with m William Phelps. It's my new weekly podcast
with I Heart Radio. Finally, I want to thank every listener.
I am entirely humbled by your support of this podcast
(28:10):
as well as my other weekly show, Crossing the Line.
I have much more coming, so stay tuned. Paper Ghosts
is written and executive produced by me Am William Phelps
and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett. Audio editing and
mixing by a booze Afar thanks to Will Pearson at
(28:30):
I Heeart Radio. The series theme number four four two
is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
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