April 11, 2025 • 34 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, thanks for joining us on Prey dot com at
Dateline Jerusalem and this week I have a dear friend
called Mark Gershon and he has written a new book
called God Was Right. How modern social science proves the
Tora is true. And before we ask about that, Mark,
I want to first of all, tell people who you
are and what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I first learned.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
About you when, as a philanthropist, you donated a substantial
amount to a missionary hospital, Christian Missionary Hospital in Africa.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So tell us what you do.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah, sure, so, Chris, it's so good to be with you.
So yeah. I live in New York City with my wife,
who's a rabbi, and our four children, and I'm an entrepreneur.
So I started some companies. I started Gerson Lambergroup GLG,
I started three I members, and I've also co founded
two nonprofit organizations. One is a United Hatzala of Israel,
(00:58):
and Chris, you did a great pro while on United
Htsala several years ago right in Jerusalem, and so United
Hatsala is Israel's crowdsource system of volunteer first response. We
have eight thousand volunteers all throughout Israel and our goal
is to get to people who call nine to one
to one within the three minutes to separate life from death,
and we do about twenty three hundred calls a day.
(01:20):
And then I also co founded and share African Mission Healthcare.
And at African Mission Healthcare we partner with Christian missionary
doctors at Christian hospitals all throughout Africa to provide clinical
care for the poor, build infrastructure, do training, and hospital administration.
And it's been a real blessing to really meet and
(01:44):
become in friendship with some of these are really the
best people in the world, these missionary doctors who in
the name of their Christian faith sacrifice everything both what
we would consider luxuries, of course, but even what we
would consider necessities to serve those whom the Book of
Matthew calls at least among us. And so yeah, at
African Mission Healthcare, we're able to work with missionary doctors
(02:06):
to bring this kind of care to the poor and
we're blessed be able to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, what kind of impact has that had there in
those African hospitals.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Really profound? I mean a dollar in the hands of
a Christian missionary doctor at a Christian hospital in Africa.
There's no dollar anywhere else goes as far the amount
of lives that were able to save through partnering with
these missionary doctors and the amount of pain were able
to ameliorate, and the amount of opportunities were able to
(02:36):
create for the poor through providing health. I mean, the
numbers are mind blowing. I mean, our at our just
going over yesterday, the numbers at the maternity center that
we built in Uganda that provides a birth injury care
to the many women who needed a see section but
didn't get one. I mean, for under four hundred dollars.
(02:56):
In some cases, under three hundred dollars, a donor is
able to provide a woman with a safe birth, and
if she didn't have a safe birth, that had a problem,
surgery to correct the problem and thus give that woman
and her baby life and health for the remainder of
her life, all for under three or four hundred dollars.
And it's all because of the sacred work and the
remarkably efficient work of these Christian missionary doctors.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, why do you do this? Mark?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I do it because I'm a believing Jew, and my
wife is too. Of course, she's a rabbi, and the
Torah tells us thirty six times to love the stranger,
which is a lot of times to tell us anything.
So by its insistence, it must be telling us two things.
One that it's difficult, it was not intuitive, and also
that's really important. So the Bible never tells us to
do things that are intuitive. The Bible never tells us
(03:42):
to love our children because we don't need any instruction
to do so, We're all going to naturally do so.
But the Bible tells us three dozen times to love
the stranger. And so when Erica and I think about
how can we as observant Jews best discharge our Tora
obligation to love the stranger, the single best way to
do it is to partner with Christian missionary doctors the
(04:03):
Christian hospitals in Africa, because they are saving so many
lives and ameliorating so much pain per dollar invested. So
our relationships with these Christian missionary doctors has given us
the opportunity as Jews to fulfill our Torah obligation, and
we're so grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, speaking of the tour, you wrote this book called
God was Right. How modern social science proves the tour
is true. I was sitting with you and Eric Steckelback,
a mutual friend, and you were talking about this and
that's why I thought it would It's such a it
was fascinating, and so tell us why you wrote the book.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, I wrote the book because I studied the Bible
every day, and I've been doing this for about twenty years.
I run six miles every morning on the treadmill, and
I study the Torah in English language commentary on double speed,
so every day for twenty years. And one of the
main things I learned about the Torah is first, what
kind of book is it? And by the Tora, I'm
(04:57):
talking about the five Books of Moses Genesis X Silyticus
numbers in Deuteronomy the five Books of Moses. So the
first question to be asked about the book, and the
first thing I learned about it is what kind of
book is it. It's not a history book, it's not
a science book, it's not a cookbook. It's a guidebook.
And the guidance that the Torah offers is really interesting
(05:18):
and completely practical. The Tora offers guidance on hundreds of
subjects that we in twenty twenty five deal with either
every day, every season in our lives, or sometimes for
our whole lives, from what to wear on the what
to wear in the morning, to how much to give
to charity, to how to think about issues like diversity
and anti fragility, to every question from the most practical
(05:42):
to the most existential, is asked an answered in the Tora.
So it's an intensely practical guidebook. So I realized that well,
first the I realized that the Torah or the Bible
should not be in the religion section of bookstores. It
should be in the self help section, because it's that
much of a self help book. It's just the best
self help book. And so in writing God was right.
(06:03):
I wanted to assess, are these claims in the Torah,
these hundreds or maybe even thousands of claims, these pieces
of guidance offered by the Torah, are they all true?
Are some of them true? Or are none of them true?
And this is a question that people of faith have
been asking for several thousand years. They're saying, is the
(06:25):
Bible true? And until the twenty first century, all we
had to go by was faith and experience. And then
something changed and That thing that changed was Internet technology,
which enabled social science research and social scientists in the
twenty first century. Many of them have become very well known,
people like Jonathan Hayde and Malcolm Gadwell. They populated bestseller lists,
(06:48):
major podcasts. They've really entered the popular and intellectual culture.
Social scientists are asking and answering the same questions that
the Biblical author asked and answered. So now, for the
first time in three thousand years, we can test with
social scientific certitude, is the Bible true? And I went
through several dozen different subjects, each subject encompassing lots of
(07:12):
different questions within trying to find the answer that question,
is the Bible true? And every single time, every claim
the Bible has made about how we should live our
lives has now been validated by modern social science. So
the most secular research that done by social scientists has
proven that the Bible is absolutely true, It's precisely right.
(07:36):
And therefore where does that lead us? It leads us
to conclude that the Bible, which is our great shared
heritage as Jews and Christians, is our great guidebook and
God was right what God told us, what we should do,
who we can be it's all right, and it's all
right in the sense it's all correct, and it's all
there in the Bible for us to study, to learn,
(07:57):
and most importantly, to live by.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Give us some examples of how social science has proved
the Torah oh has proved social science.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah exactly. I mean, there's there are
so many different examples. Well, let's talk about dating and clothing,
two very practical examples for everybody. So one question that
pretty much all young people ask is how should I
pick my spouse? And the Tora's answer is very clear,
(08:27):
and we know that through the happiest marriage in the Bible,
which is that between Isaac and Rebecca, which leads us
to ask, how did Isaac and Rebecca know that they
were right for each other? And the Bible makes it
really easy, as it does with most things, to figure out.
So Abraham's wife, Sarah dies, and Abraham immediately says, Okay,
now I have to find a wife from my son Isac,
(08:47):
who's forty years old at the time. So Abraham sends
his servant Eliezer to go find a wife for Isaac,
and he tells Eliezer go to Haran. Why Haran because
Haran was the place where Abraham had made souls earlier
in Genesis. So he's saying to Eliezer, go fish in
a good pool. Haran's a good pool. You can make
souls in Haran. And then Eliezer did make souls. Yeah,
(09:11):
So in early Genesis were told that Abraham made souls
in Haran on his journey. So we don't know exactly
what that means, but it probably means that the people
of Haran were open to the idea of ethical monotheism.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
M h.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It was a good community. So he said, go to Haran.
That's where I want you to find a wife for Isaac.
So Eliezer faithfully goes to Haran, and he immediately meets
this young woman and notes she is, quote from the Bible,
very fair to look upon. And then he sees that
she is extraordinarily generous. She brings water, this young woman
(09:45):
carrying pails of water for both him and all of
his camels. So on the basis of those three characteristics,
she's from Haran, she's very fair to look upon, and
she's exceedingly generous in giving. On the basis of those
three and only three characteristics, Eliezer says that's the woman
for my man Isaac. Now, Rebecca is given the opportunity
(10:08):
to either go with Eliezer to marry Isaac or not.
So people who say the Bible is sexist, they don't
really know what they're talking about. The Bible is not
sexist at all. And this is just one of many
examples where the young woman is given the decision for
herself to either mary Isaac or not. So she has
to make the decision. What does she know about Isaac
before she makes a decision? Only two things. She knows
(10:29):
that he's rich, so he's going to be a good provider,
and she also she also knows that he loves God.
On the basis of those two characteristics and only two,
she says, I will go with you and mary Isaac.
So why does that teach us about dating? That teaches
us about dating that when you start the dating process,
go into it intentionally looking for two or maybe three
(10:50):
characteristics in the other person, and that's it. And there
aren't that many characteristics to choose from. Whether his friends
are funny is not one, and whether she likes warm
or cold weather vacations is not one. There's admitted a
number of characteristics that are important, pick two or three.
When someone hits those two or three, what happens? What
we see that in Genesis twenty four to sixty seven,
(11:10):
the text tells us he married her, she became his wife,
and he loved her. Now, the order of things in
that verse, as with everything in the Bible, is really important.
So what do we see. We see that they've identified
two or three characteristics. Then they decide, let's just get married.
There's not think too much about it. She's got the
two or three characteristics. Let's just get married. He married her.
(11:31):
But being married and being a spouse must be different
things because they're listed separately. So what would it mean
to be a spouse as distinct from being married. It
probably means doing iterant acts of giving, because that's what
spouses do. So he married her, she became his wife,
and then he loved her. So what does that teach
us about love? It teaches us that love follows commitment.
(11:52):
So how is that different than the way we do things? Well,
e Harmony found out that people date for two point
six years before they get married, and then a period
of engagement follows at So that two point six years
means that people are looking for a heck of a
lot more than those two or three characteristics, which means
they're looking for characteristics that are completely extraneous to what
constitutes a happy marriage, which means that young men and
(12:14):
young women are rejecting each other for no good reason
and probably ruling out people they should have married along
the way. And we also have this notion, so the
Bible tells us that love follows commitment. He marries her,
she became his wife, and then he loved her. No,
we have this notion that's exemplified in the expression fall
in love, which is a ridiculous expression, because you don't
(12:35):
fall in love, you cultivate love. You might fall on
your face, you might fall on the ground, but you
don't fall in love. You cultivate love. That's what the
Bible instructs that we can go to the data. So
the data now is pretty good because we've had generations
of people getting married in the way that the Bible says,
don't get married that way. The Bible says, pick two
or three characteristics. But now people date for years and
(12:57):
so we have some data to go by. So the
divorce rate now is about forty percent lower than it
used to be not a good sign because few people
are getting married. So a few people are getting married.
The divorce rates forty percent. Twenty percent of couples who
have been separated for ten years or more are not divorced.
So that's the term for that is endless separation. So
(13:18):
why would someone be endlessly separated? Well, they decide they
want to be a part. She's on his health insurance,
he needs for social security. They don't hate each other,
so they decide let's just separate and not be divorced.
But they're effectively divorced. So the real divorce rated. You
got to put the forty You got to put the
people who are endlessly separated, and then you got to
put the people who are chronically unhappy in their marriage.
So it adds up to a pretty big number, teaching
(13:39):
us that the alternative to the biblical formula for what
constitutes a good courtship and a happy marriage is simply,
according to the data, not working. So what does that
lead us in terms of being practical? It means that
we should tell our children what I've told my children,
just falling what the Bible says and what modern social
science with secular moder and social science confirms, which is
(14:02):
God was right, identify two or three characteristics, just get married,
start doing spouse like things, and love will follow and
you have a happy marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
And the social science does affirm.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
That, It totally affirms it, and it informs it. It
affirms it in the fact that the divorce rates among
people who quote unquote fall in love are very high,
and the real divorce rates are even higher. And it
also confirms it in the fact that people who follow
the biblical formula, and there are communities that do it.
These are religious Christians, Orthodox Jews, they don't day for
(14:37):
very long. You know, they're effectively doing this. They're effectively
doing what the Bible said, which is identifying two or
three characteristics, getting married, doing spouse like things, and then
so does love follow. Well, their divorce rate is well
under ten percent.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, well that proves something.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, it proves something. And then the critics or the
cynics will say, well, yeah, but these marriages may be
full of trapped women. It's like, okay, well, there's no
data to suggest that these marriages full of trapped women,
and there aren't even many anecdotes to suggest it. So
I'm not sure what you're talking about. But even if
let's assume that there are certain marriages in the biblical
way that are unhappy and would result in divorce if
(15:13):
the culture was more open to it. Okay, so let's
say the divorce rate in the biblical understanding is depressed. Well,
so is a divorce rate in the fall in love
sense because of all the endless separations. So no matter
how you look at the data, the data is very
clear that the biblical formula for picking a spouse is
absolutely right. And Eric and I tell young people this
all the time, and we just wish they would follow.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, you're well aware here in Jerusalem that if you
go to one of the lobby in many of these
hotels around, you'll see the courtship going on between Orthodox
men and women. Often these are match making arrangements, and
they'll be sitting in a lobby and talking for hours, sort.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Of quite like Eliezer and Rebecca. But close.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I think you're exactly right. It is the young couples
having die coke in the lobby of the King David.
I mean that is the modern adaption of Isaac and Rebecca.
And my friend leel Lieblitz was telling me that he
was in the King David and he overheard one of
these young couples, and he said, the young woman said
to the young man, if you could be any character
(16:22):
in the Bible, which would you be? Oh what a
great question, like that's at Yeah, and I'm sure that
this couple they probably had four or five dates, no more.
And at the end of those four or five they
either decided to get married or not. Obviously don't know
what they decide to do, but it was four or
five dates, because you don't need more than four or
five dates to identify does the person have the two
(16:42):
or three characteristics that optimizes for a happy marriage?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You also talked about clothing. What does the Bible say
about clothing?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
A lot of things very interesting. So when God sends
Adam out of the garden, he sends him out with garments.
Well why garments? Like you could presume it's garments, Like well,
if if you said, if Chrisiphy's to me, I left
my house today, I wouldn't say, well, we were in garments,
like you know, you could safely assume that you were right.
I mean so, But the Bible goes out of his
way to emphasize that that God sends that I'm out
(17:10):
with garment. So why is he emphasizing garment so early
in the Bible. Well, then we see the great story
of Rebecca and Isaac. Now and much older, Rebecca and Isaac,
and they have twins, they have Jacob and Esau, and
there's a problem. The problem is that Isaac has a
favorite son and that's Esaw, and Rebecca has a favorite
son with that's Jacob. And having favorite sons is a
(17:31):
big problem, which we'll see throughout the Bible. But anyway,
focusing on what happens here, the problem is that Isaac
is about to give his favorite son, Esau, the birthright,
and if Esau gets the birthright, then Esau gets effectively
the license to lead the Jewish people, and Esau is
completely unqualified to do it. If Isaac has given that
(17:51):
birthright to Esau, we're not here right now. So now
that important. It's yeah, exactly exactly. It's one of those, yeah,
truly all important moments in the history of mankind. So Rebecca,
who's a brilliant woman in so many ways, she has
about twenty minutes to change the course of history, because really,
(18:14):
no more than twenty minutes how do we know that
the bottle doesn't say twenty minutes, but does say Esau's
in the field. When he gets back, he's going to
get the birthright. So Rebecca has to trick Isaac, who's blind,
into thinking that Jacob is Esau, so that Isaac mistakenly
gives the birthright to Jacob. So how does she do
this Well, she needs Jacob to play the part well,
(18:38):
and so how does she get Jacob to play the
part well? She tells Jacob put on Esau's best clothes.
Why the old man is blind? Whe does it matter
what he's wearing? And why his best clothes? Why can't
just put on any clothes if she wants to go
with clothing? Because Rebecca had a profound psychological insight, which
(18:58):
is that we feel like what we wear, and we
do what we feel like. So she tells Jacob effectively,
in order to be Esau, you have to dress like Esau.
In order to feel like Esau, you have to dress
like him. Okay, So fast forward to the twenty first
century and we can ask is this right? Is it
(19:18):
correct that people feel like what they wear and perform
like how they feel? Twenty twelve Professors at Northwestern do
a study where they gave they take two cohorts of students.
They gave each of the two cohorts the same kind
of white coat. They tell one cohort, this is a
painter's coat. They told the other's cohort, this is a
(19:40):
doctor's coat. And then they gave him attention demanding tasks.
And they found that the cohort that was told it
was a doctor's coat performed vastly better.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Fast forward two years past that, twenty fourteen, there's a
study done at Yale where one cohort of students, young
men at Yale there said the the psychologist said to them,
you're going to be in a negotiation workshop where one
of you is going to play a real estate developer,
the other is going to on the other side is
going to be a bank and we'll see how much
profit you make. At the end of the exercise. Half
(20:11):
the students were told to come in suits and ties.
The other half were told to come dress however you want.
The students who dressed in suit and ties made three
times as much profit in this exercise. There's another study
done in the late nineties where at a university, so
the same cohortive young women. This case young women. The
(20:33):
half of them were told you're going to take this
math test wearing a swimsuit. The other half were told
you're going to take this math test wearing a sweater.
The ones who were wearing a sweater do vastly better.
What does this all teach us? This all teaches us
that we feel like what we wear, and we perform
how we feel. As put beautifully by the NFL Hall
of Fame running back Dion Sanders, if you feel good,
(20:55):
you play good. If you play good, they pay good
exactly right. So another study that confirmed just the existential
importance of clothing was is that when people someone wakes
up in the morning sad or even depressed, what are
they likely to do. They're likely to put on a
(21:17):
baggy sweatshirt and whatever pair of pants they can find.
What the studies have shown is they're just exacerbating their
depression because they're dressing how they feel. They're not dressing
how they want to feel. So what does the research
show that? The research shows that at least one psychologists
claim up to ninety percent of female depression the cure
is in her closet. In other words, if someone wakes
(21:37):
up feeling sad or depressed, put on a floaty dress,
put on patterns, wear interesting jewelry, mix it up, wear
bright colors, and by the virtue of wearing bright collars
and flowered patterns and funky jewelry, people will feel happier.
So it says that if we want to feel a
certain way, let's just dressed way. And I love that example, Chris,
(21:57):
because it just shows how the Bible instructs us that
so much of life it's in our hands. I mean,
we can all decide what to wear in the morning.
At that heart, we all have to do it right.
So and there's a there's the Bible guides us as
to how to do it. The Bible says, decide what
you want to feel, and just dress that way. So
if you work from home, just where a suit and
(22:20):
tire or whatever the equivalent is, act like you're in
the office, you perform better. The studies show.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
That too, even at home.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, so if someone's working from home, they should not
wear sweatpants. Even if even if the zoom camera can
only see what their shirt is, they should not wear sweatpants.
The studies show that people who work from home, but
dress like they're in an office perform much better than
those who work from home and dress like they're at home,
(22:47):
which they are. No if you're working. I mean, I
talk about Tom Wolfe, the great novelist, Tom Wolfe, who's
a daughter's a friend of mine, And Alexandra told me
that her father, who was one of the great creative
minds of the twentieth century, great novelist, he wore that
white suit every day in the privacy of his home
when he wrote. He dressed for work, and by the
(23:07):
virtue of dressing for work, his creative juices unloaded. And
he's given us so many great gifts in his novels.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah wow, so clothing dating. But you go through.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
A number of topics and the book is daunting. It's
nine hundred pages, Is that right? Yep, it's nine unded pages.
But it doesn't have to be read in one sitting.
You can write through chapter a chapter or even topics.
How mentioned some of the other topics that you go through.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Well, yeah, there, let's take take reframing. So reframing it's
a it's a psychological term that's been coined in the
twenty first century, but it debuts in the Book of
Genesis with the biblical Joseph. So Joseph, of course, is
thrown into slavery by his brothers and has the most
remarkable career of anybody in the Bible. He goes from
(24:04):
being an arrogant teenager to being thrown into a pit,
to being a slave in the home of Potiphar, to
being a prisoner in Pharaoh's jail, to being the viceroy
of Egypt, the number two man in the world. And then,
in this extraordinary string of events, his brothers come to
Egypt to get food during the time of mass starvation.
(24:24):
They come to get food, and Joseph, in this probably
the most dramatic moment in literature, eventually reveals himself and
he says to them, it is not you who sent
me here, but it is God who sent me here. Basically,
God sent me here to liberate the world from a famine.
So he reframes the experience. He says, yes, of course
(24:45):
it was I'm here in Egypt because you threw me
into the pit and route to slavery, he said. But
that's not how I'm thinking about it, he said. I'm
reframing it. I'm going to conceive of my situation as
I'm not here because you threw me into slavery. I'm
going to conceive mysel situation is I'm here because I'm
a messenger and an agent of God to save the
world from starvation. So he reframes the entire experience, and
(25:08):
by the virtue of reframing, he's able to reconcile with
his brothers. And reframing is such a radical concept that
his brothers actually never accepted because Joseph invents the concept
of reframing. And so what is reframing tells us? It
tells us take your experience, except the full truth of
the experience, but put it in a frame, probably a
(25:31):
different frame that has a purpose, meaning, and a benefit.
And that's exactly what Joseph does. He said, I'm in Egypt.
Yes I was brought here as a slave, but I'm
here with purpose and the meeting that's to save the
world from starvation, which he did. So fast forward to
the twenty first century, so we now have the concept
of reframing. So a great example from the book was
(25:52):
Jess Fox who was an Olympian not long ago, and
before her skiing race, she gets very sick. She probably
ha foo poison right before the skiing race, and she's
vomiting right before the race, and she's with her mother,
who was also an olympian, so the mother presumably knew
sports psychology. And even though she's so sick before she
(26:13):
has to perform at an athletic peak, what does she say.
She said, this is a sign something great's about to happen.
So she reframes the experience, she said, said, she said,
this isn't just me being sick. This is a sign
that something greats about to happen. She won the gold.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Wow. So if she if she didn't reframe it, she
might have not got it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Might dropped out of the race right exactly exactly. So
let's say she didn't reframe it and she said, you know,
I'm so sick, I feel weak. I can't possibly compete athletically,
let alone against the best athletes in the world. But
she didn't. She reframed. She said, no, this is a
sign something great's about to happen. You know. Another terrific
example that that I think everyone who works can really
(26:55):
learn from, which is you know, most people of course,
is again the biblic Joseph. So Joseph is the only
person described in the Bible as having been a success. Okay,
So and then you have to say, well, when is
he called the success. He's not called the success when
he's the viceroy of Egypt. He's only called the success
(27:16):
when he's a slave in Pottyfar's home and he's a
prisoner in Pharaoh's jail. So how could Joe and we
know he was a success because he receives promotions in
both places. He goes into Pottiphar's home being a lowly
slave and emerges as the head slave. And then he
goes into the prison as a lowly prisoner and emerges
as the head prisoner. So he is a success as
a slave and as a prisoner. So what how does
(27:38):
Joseph become a success, the only person in the Bible
called the success in these two highly unlikely places to
become successful. Well, now we know exactly how it's because
in the twenty first century, social scientists have discovered a
concept called job crafting. What job crafting teaches us is
you should take whatever tasks you're performing in your job
(28:01):
and craft them so that you understand the ultimate purpose
and meaning of your job. So, for instance, there was
a study out of the University of Pennsylvania in two
thousand and one of hospital custodians. So some of the
custodians said, you know, we're just cleaning the floors. Other
custodians said, we're creating a healthy and happy environment where
(28:22):
patients can get better. And the custodians who job crafted,
who said, I'm an indispensable component in a system of healing,
I'm a healer. The custodians who said I'm a healer.
And by the way, they're totally right. A hospital custodian
is a healer. I mean, anyone who who doubts that,
just you know, would you want to be in a
hospital room that was dirty and messy or would you
(28:42):
want to be one that was sanitary and kempt. And
of course everyone can acknowledge that hospital custodians are a
crucial part of the healing process. And these custodians realize that,
and they said, no, I'm a healer. I'm an indispensable
part of the healing process. The hospital custodians who conceived
them selves as healers ends up getting promotions and doing
much better financially than those who didn't. And the study
(29:06):
has been replicated across a whole variety of professions. There
was an example of President Johnson went to visit NASA
and he complimented a custodian about the cleanliness of the floors,
and he said, you're obviously a very good custodian. He said, well,
I'm actually helping put a man on the moon. It
was under Kennedy. I'm actually it was under Kenned. Yeah,
I'm actually helping put a man on the moon. And
(29:27):
so this custodian and NASA under Kennedy, he said, by
the virtual cleaning the floors, I'm part of a system
that's putting a man in the moon. And so Joseph
is the original job crafter. But now we understand that
in order to be successful in your occupation, how do
you do it? Just think of the mission that you
serve through the tasks that you perform. And it really
works for everybody. So I think what the Bible is
(29:50):
guiding us to is take what job you have and
think about just how important it is and how important
you are. And if you craft your job that way,
if you think of your work as part of a
system to accomplish something really important, and I would say
that anytime somebody is parting with money for a good
or service, some kind of social good is being done,
(30:10):
and someone should think of themselves as an indispensable part
of that system. And what the social science says is
they're much more likely to get promotions and they're much
more likely to make more money.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Wow, this is It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And you can replicate these with different topics throughout the book.
And can what do you want people to take away
from the book?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I want people to take away from the book that
the Bible is the best self help book ever written.
That whether the question is what should I wear in
the morning, whether the question is how much should I
give to charity, whether the question is how many hours
a week should I work? Have a whole chapter on that.
The Bible gets it totally right to the hour, the
answer is fifty five max.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And so.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
But no matter what the question is, clothing, work, charity,
it's every question that we ask, from the most practical
to the most existential, It's all so clear in the Bible.
The Bible anticipated truly everything. And now we know with
social scientific certitude that the Bible is right on all
(31:17):
of its claims. And the reason why the book is
nine hundred pages is because it has to be comprehensive,
because if the book were one hundred and seventy pages,
then someone could say, rightly, so, well, maybe you just
cherry picked some examples. But I said, no, okay, I'll
do everything. I'll do everything. I'll do everything I possibly can.
I'll make it a long book. I'll cover dozens of
different subjects in a whole variety of different domains so
(31:37):
we can test is the Bible right comprehensively. So I
have chapters on diversity and anti fragility, and then I
have very different chapters on routine and future orientation, and
on Stockholm syndrome, and then bystanding. So it's long because
it's comprehensive. And I think what it demonstrates is that
the Bible is just ready able and almost asking us
(31:59):
please let me go you. And the Bible's guidance is
always right and not always is always right. It's always interesting,
like every question the Bible asks, every story, even every law,
it's all so interesting. And I wrote, God was right
to demonstrate that the Bible is really our ultimate self
help book. That anytime someone's wrestling with a challenge or
(32:20):
asking a question or an opportunity. And those questions might
be how should I educate my children? To should I
let my child go out and ride the subway by himself?
To how many dates should I go on before I
get married? To what should I wear in the morning.
It's all there in the Bible, and I just hope
to bring it home in the most practical way, just
(32:42):
showing how the Bible's intensely practical guidance. It's always true.
Wisdom is just so there and so ready for seekers
of all kinds.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Well, it makes everybody, I think, want to read the Bible.
Let me ask you one other question about what about fertility.
You know, people that can't conceive, and uh, what should
they do? Should they do in vitro fertilization?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Absolutely? Yeah, I mean the Bible of course doesn't address
in vitro fertilization because it wasn't a technology that was
around them, but uh, absolutely, I mean the Bible. The
Bible says right at the beginning, be fruitful and multiply.
And if some people can't be fruitful in the conventional way,
then they should find in other ways to be to
be fruitful. So yeah, absolutely, having having children is is
(33:28):
a wonderful thing. It's a blessed thing. I know that
from personal experience, we're blessed to have four And and
the Bible is all about having children and uh and
uh yeah, I think that, uh that that there's a
there's a fullness to the life experience that comes from
being a parent. It's the most enjoyable and fulfilling thing.
And and if if someone can't do it the conventional way,
(33:49):
and and the Bible is full of people who can't
do with the conventional way. I mean Abraham and Sarah
only conceived by a miracle when he's one hundred and
she's ninety mm hmm. The story of Hannah has a
difficulty conceiving. So it's a it's a it's a very
difficult problem for people that that was identified and articulated
by the biblical author and now we have technological solutions
(34:11):
for it.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, So how can people get the book? Mark?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
So it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Anyone can
go to godwsrite dot com and order it there, and
anyone can also email me at Mark at godwsright dot com.
I'd love to engage with any of your listeners, Chris, Wow,
well this.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Is fascinating Mark, and I love the book and I
think it's going to be a blessing to many many people.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Oh, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Well, thanks for joining us on Prey dot com at
Dateline Jerusalem and this week I have a dear friend
called Mark Gershon and he has written a new book
called God Was Right. How modern social science proves the
Tora is true. And before we ask about that, Mark,
I want to first of all, tell people who you
are and what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I first learned.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
About you when, as a philanthropist, you donated a substantial
amount to a missionary hospital, Christian Missionary Hospital in Africa.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So tell us what you do.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah, sure, so, Chris, it's so good to be with you.
So yeah. I live in New York City with my wife,
who's a rabbi, and our four children, and I'm an entrepreneur.
So I started some companies. I started Gerson Lambergroup GLG,
I started three I members, and I've also co founded
two nonprofit organizations. One is a United Hatzala of Israel,
(00:58):
and Chris, you did a great pro while on United
Htsala several years ago right in Jerusalem, and so United
Hatsala is Israel's crowdsource system of volunteer first response. We
have eight thousand volunteers all throughout Israel and our goal
is to get to people who call nine to one
to one within the three minutes to separate life from death,
and we do about twenty three hundred calls a day.
(01:20):
And then I also co founded and share African Mission Healthcare.
And at African Mission Healthcare we partner with Christian missionary
doctors at Christian hospitals all throughout Africa to provide clinical
care for the poor, build infrastructure, do training, and hospital administration.
And it's been a real blessing to really meet and
(01:44):
become in friendship with some of these are really the
best people in the world, these missionary doctors who in
the name of their Christian faith sacrifice everything both what
we would consider luxuries, of course, but even what we
would consider necessities to serve those whom the Book of
Matthew calls at least among us. And so yeah, at
African Mission Healthcare, we're able to work with missionary doctors
(02:06):
to bring this kind of care to the poor and
we're blessed be able to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, what kind of impact has that had there in
those African hospitals.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Really profound? I mean a dollar in the hands of
a Christian missionary doctor at a Christian hospital in Africa.
There's no dollar anywhere else goes as far the amount
of lives that were able to save through partnering with
these missionary doctors and the amount of pain were able
to ameliorate, and the amount of opportunities were able to
(02:36):
create for the poor through providing health. I mean, the
numbers are mind blowing. I mean, our at our just
going over yesterday, the numbers at the maternity center that
we built in Uganda that provides a birth injury care
to the many women who needed a see section but
didn't get one. I mean, for under four hundred dollars.
(02:56):
In some cases, under three hundred dollars, a donor is
able to provide a woman with a safe birth, and
if she didn't have a safe birth, that had a problem,
surgery to correct the problem and thus give that woman
and her baby life and health for the remainder of
her life, all for under three or four hundred dollars.
And it's all because of the sacred work and the
remarkably efficient work of these Christian missionary doctors.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, why do you do this? Mark?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I do it because I'm a believing Jew, and my
wife is too. Of course, she's a rabbi, and the
Torah tells us thirty six times to love the stranger,
which is a lot of times to tell us anything.
So by its insistence, it must be telling us two things.
One that it's difficult, it was not intuitive, and also
that's really important. So the Bible never tells us to
do things that are intuitive. The Bible never tells us
(03:42):
to love our children because we don't need any instruction
to do so, We're all going to naturally do so.
But the Bible tells us three dozen times to love
the stranger. And so when Erica and I think about
how can we as observant Jews best discharge our Tora
obligation to love the stranger, the single best way to
do it is to partner with Christian missionary doctors the
(04:03):
Christian hospitals in Africa, because they are saving so many
lives and ameliorating so much pain per dollar invested. So
our relationships with these Christian missionary doctors has given us
the opportunity as Jews to fulfill our Torah obligation, and
we're so grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, speaking of the tour, you wrote this book called
God was Right. How modern social science proves the tour
is true. I was sitting with you and Eric Steckelback,
a mutual friend, and you were talking about this and
that's why I thought it would It's such a it
was fascinating, and so tell us why you wrote the book.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, I wrote the book because I studied the Bible
every day, and I've been doing this for about twenty years.
I run six miles every morning on the treadmill, and
I study the Torah in English language commentary on double speed,
so every day for twenty years. And one of the
main things I learned about the Torah is first, what
kind of book is it? And by the Tora, I'm
(04:57):
talking about the five Books of Moses Genesis X Silyticus
numbers in Deuteronomy the five Books of Moses. So the
first question to be asked about the book, and the
first thing I learned about it is what kind of
book is it. It's not a history book, it's not
a science book, it's not a cookbook. It's a guidebook.
And the guidance that the Torah offers is really interesting
(05:18):
and completely practical. The Tora offers guidance on hundreds of
subjects that we in twenty twenty five deal with either
every day, every season in our lives, or sometimes for
our whole lives, from what to wear on the what
to wear in the morning, to how much to give
to charity, to how to think about issues like diversity
and anti fragility, to every question from the most practical
(05:42):
to the most existential, is asked an answered in the Tora.
So it's an intensely practical guidebook. So I realized that well,
first the I realized that the Torah or the Bible
should not be in the religion section of bookstores. It
should be in the self help section, because it's that
much of a self help book. It's just the best
self help book. And so in writing God was right.
(06:03):
I wanted to assess, are these claims in the Torah,
these hundreds or maybe even thousands of claims, these pieces
of guidance offered by the Torah, are they all true?
Are some of them true? Or are none of them true?
And this is a question that people of faith have
been asking for several thousand years. They're saying, is the
(06:25):
Bible true? And until the twenty first century, all we
had to go by was faith and experience. And then
something changed and That thing that changed was Internet technology,
which enabled social science research and social scientists in the
twenty first century. Many of them have become very well known,
people like Jonathan Hayde and Malcolm Gadwell. They populated bestseller lists,
(06:48):
major podcasts. They've really entered the popular and intellectual culture.
Social scientists are asking and answering the same questions that
the Biblical author asked and answered. So now, for the
first time in three thousand years, we can test with
social scientific certitude, is the Bible true? And I went
through several dozen different subjects, each subject encompassing lots of
(07:12):
different questions within trying to find the answer that question,
is the Bible true? And every single time, every claim
the Bible has made about how we should live our
lives has now been validated by modern social science. So
the most secular research that done by social scientists has
proven that the Bible is absolutely true, It's precisely right.
(07:36):
And therefore where does that lead us? It leads us
to conclude that the Bible, which is our great shared
heritage as Jews and Christians, is our great guidebook and
God was right what God told us, what we should do,
who we can be it's all right, and it's all
right in the sense it's all correct, and it's all
there in the Bible for us to study, to learn,
(07:57):
and most importantly, to live by.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Give us some examples of how social science has proved
the Torah oh has proved social science.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah exactly. I mean, there's there are
so many different examples. Well, let's talk about dating and clothing,
two very practical examples for everybody. So one question that
pretty much all young people ask is how should I
pick my spouse? And the Tora's answer is very clear,
(08:27):
and we know that through the happiest marriage in the Bible,
which is that between Isaac and Rebecca, which leads us
to ask, how did Isaac and Rebecca know that they
were right for each other? And the Bible makes it
really easy, as it does with most things, to figure out.
So Abraham's wife, Sarah dies, and Abraham immediately says, Okay,
now I have to find a wife from my son Isac,
(08:47):
who's forty years old at the time. So Abraham sends
his servant Eliezer to go find a wife for Isaac,
and he tells Eliezer go to Haran. Why Haran because
Haran was the place where Abraham had made souls earlier
in Genesis. So he's saying to Eliezer, go fish in
a good pool. Haran's a good pool. You can make
souls in Haran. And then Eliezer did make souls. Yeah,
(09:11):
So in early Genesis were told that Abraham made souls
in Haran on his journey. So we don't know exactly
what that means, but it probably means that the people
of Haran were open to the idea of ethical monotheism.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
M h.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It was a good community. So he said, go to Haran.
That's where I want you to find a wife for Isaac.
So Eliezer faithfully goes to Haran, and he immediately meets
this young woman and notes she is, quote from the Bible,
very fair to look upon. And then he sees that
she is extraordinarily generous. She brings water, this young woman
(09:45):
carrying pails of water for both him and all of
his camels. So on the basis of those three characteristics,
she's from Haran, she's very fair to look upon, and
she's exceedingly generous in giving. On the basis of those
three and only three characteristics, Eliezer says that's the woman
for my man Isaac. Now, Rebecca is given the opportunity
(10:08):
to either go with Eliezer to marry Isaac or not.
So people who say the Bible is sexist, they don't
really know what they're talking about. The Bible is not
sexist at all. And this is just one of many
examples where the young woman is given the decision for
herself to either mary Isaac or not. So she has
to make the decision. What does she know about Isaac
before she makes a decision? Only two things. She knows
(10:29):
that he's rich, so he's going to be a good provider,
and she also she also knows that he loves God.
On the basis of those two characteristics and only two,
she says, I will go with you and mary Isaac.
So why does that teach us about dating? That teaches
us about dating that when you start the dating process,
go into it intentionally looking for two or maybe three
(10:50):
characteristics in the other person, and that's it. And there
aren't that many characteristics to choose from. Whether his friends
are funny is not one, and whether she likes warm
or cold weather vacations is not one. There's admitted a
number of characteristics that are important, pick two or three.
When someone hits those two or three, what happens? What
we see that in Genesis twenty four to sixty seven,
(11:10):
the text tells us he married her, she became his wife,
and he loved her. Now, the order of things in
that verse, as with everything in the Bible, is really important.
So what do we see. We see that they've identified
two or three characteristics. Then they decide, let's just get married.
There's not think too much about it. She's got the
two or three characteristics. Let's just get married. He married her.
(11:31):
But being married and being a spouse must be different
things because they're listed separately. So what would it mean
to be a spouse as distinct from being married. It
probably means doing iterant acts of giving, because that's what
spouses do. So he married her, she became his wife,
and then he loved her. So what does that teach
us about love? It teaches us that love follows commitment.
(11:52):
So how is that different than the way we do things? Well,
e Harmony found out that people date for two point
six years before they get married, and then a period
of engagement follows at So that two point six years
means that people are looking for a heck of a
lot more than those two or three characteristics, which means
they're looking for characteristics that are completely extraneous to what
constitutes a happy marriage, which means that young men and
(12:14):
young women are rejecting each other for no good reason
and probably ruling out people they should have married along
the way. And we also have this notion, so the
Bible tells us that love follows commitment. He marries her,
she became his wife, and then he loved her. No,
we have this notion that's exemplified in the expression fall
in love, which is a ridiculous expression, because you don't
(12:35):
fall in love, you cultivate love. You might fall on
your face, you might fall on the ground, but you
don't fall in love. You cultivate love. That's what the
Bible instructs that we can go to the data. So
the data now is pretty good because we've had generations
of people getting married in the way that the Bible says,
don't get married that way. The Bible says, pick two
or three characteristics. But now people date for years and
(12:57):
so we have some data to go by. So the
divorce rate now is about forty percent lower than it
used to be not a good sign because few people
are getting married. So a few people are getting married.
The divorce rates forty percent. Twenty percent of couples who
have been separated for ten years or more are not divorced.
So that's the term for that is endless separation. So
(13:18):
why would someone be endlessly separated? Well, they decide they
want to be a part. She's on his health insurance,
he needs for social security. They don't hate each other,
so they decide let's just separate and not be divorced.
But they're effectively divorced. So the real divorce rated. You
got to put the forty You got to put the
people who are endlessly separated, and then you got to
put the people who are chronically unhappy in their marriage.
So it adds up to a pretty big number, teaching
(13:39):
us that the alternative to the biblical formula for what
constitutes a good courtship and a happy marriage is simply,
according to the data, not working. So what does that
lead us in terms of being practical? It means that
we should tell our children what I've told my children,
just falling what the Bible says and what modern social
science with secular moder and social science confirms, which is
(14:02):
God was right, identify two or three characteristics, just get married,
start doing spouse like things, and love will follow and
you have a happy marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
And the social science does affirm.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
That, It totally affirms it, and it informs it. It
affirms it in the fact that the divorce rates among
people who quote unquote fall in love are very high,
and the real divorce rates are even higher. And it
also confirms it in the fact that people who follow
the biblical formula, and there are communities that do it.
These are religious Christians, Orthodox Jews, they don't day for
(14:37):
very long. You know, they're effectively doing this. They're effectively
doing what the Bible said, which is identifying two or
three characteristics, getting married, doing spouse like things, and then
so does love follow. Well, their divorce rate is well
under ten percent.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, well that proves something.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, it proves something. And then the critics or the
cynics will say, well, yeah, but these marriages may be
full of trapped women. It's like, okay, well, there's no
data to suggest that these marriages full of trapped women,
and there aren't even many anecdotes to suggest it. So
I'm not sure what you're talking about. But even if
let's assume that there are certain marriages in the biblical
way that are unhappy and would result in divorce if
(15:13):
the culture was more open to it. Okay, so let's
say the divorce rate in the biblical understanding is depressed. Well,
so is a divorce rate in the fall in love
sense because of all the endless separations. So no matter
how you look at the data, the data is very
clear that the biblical formula for picking a spouse is
absolutely right. And Eric and I tell young people this
all the time, and we just wish they would follow.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, you're well aware here in Jerusalem that if you
go to one of the lobby in many of these
hotels around, you'll see the courtship going on between Orthodox
men and women. Often these are match making arrangements, and
they'll be sitting in a lobby and talking for hours, sort.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Of quite like Eliezer and Rebecca. But close.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I think you're exactly right. It is the young couples
having die coke in the lobby of the King David.
I mean that is the modern adaption of Isaac and Rebecca.
And my friend leel Lieblitz was telling me that he
was in the King David and he overheard one of
these young couples, and he said, the young woman said
to the young man, if you could be any character
(16:22):
in the Bible, which would you be? Oh what a
great question, like that's at Yeah, and I'm sure that
this couple they probably had four or five dates, no more.
And at the end of those four or five they
either decided to get married or not. Obviously don't know
what they decide to do, but it was four or
five dates, because you don't need more than four or
five dates to identify does the person have the two
(16:42):
or three characteristics that optimizes for a happy marriage?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You also talked about clothing. What does the Bible say
about clothing?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
A lot of things very interesting. So when God sends
Adam out of the garden, he sends him out with garments.
Well why garments? Like you could presume it's garments, Like well,
if if you said, if Chrisiphy's to me, I left
my house today, I wouldn't say, well, we were in garments,
like you know, you could safely assume that you were right.
I mean so, But the Bible goes out of his
way to emphasize that that God sends that I'm out
(17:10):
with garment. So why is he emphasizing garment so early
in the Bible. Well, then we see the great story
of Rebecca and Isaac. Now and much older, Rebecca and Isaac,
and they have twins, they have Jacob and Esau, and
there's a problem. The problem is that Isaac has a
favorite son and that's Esaw, and Rebecca has a favorite
son with that's Jacob. And having favorite sons is a
(17:31):
big problem, which we'll see throughout the Bible. But anyway,
focusing on what happens here, the problem is that Isaac
is about to give his favorite son, Esau, the birthright,
and if Esau gets the birthright, then Esau gets effectively
the license to lead the Jewish people, and Esau is
completely unqualified to do it. If Isaac has given that
(17:51):
birthright to Esau, we're not here right now. So now
that important. It's yeah, exactly exactly. It's one of those, yeah,
truly all important moments in the history of mankind. So Rebecca,
who's a brilliant woman in so many ways, she has
about twenty minutes to change the course of history, because really,
(18:14):
no more than twenty minutes how do we know that
the bottle doesn't say twenty minutes, but does say Esau's
in the field. When he gets back, he's going to
get the birthright. So Rebecca has to trick Isaac, who's blind,
into thinking that Jacob is Esau, so that Isaac mistakenly
gives the birthright to Jacob. So how does she do
this Well, she needs Jacob to play the part well,
(18:38):
and so how does she get Jacob to play the
part well? She tells Jacob put on Esau's best clothes.
Why the old man is blind? Whe does it matter
what he's wearing? And why his best clothes? Why can't
just put on any clothes if she wants to go
with clothing? Because Rebecca had a profound psychological insight, which
(18:58):
is that we feel like what we wear, and we
do what we feel like. So she tells Jacob effectively,
in order to be Esau, you have to dress like Esau.
In order to feel like Esau, you have to dress
like him. Okay, So fast forward to the twenty first
century and we can ask is this right? Is it
(19:18):
correct that people feel like what they wear and perform
like how they feel? Twenty twelve Professors at Northwestern do
a study where they gave they take two cohorts of students.
They gave each of the two cohorts the same kind
of white coat. They tell one cohort, this is a
painter's coat. They told the other's cohort, this is a
(19:40):
doctor's coat. And then they gave him attention demanding tasks.
And they found that the cohort that was told it
was a doctor's coat performed vastly better.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Fast forward two years past that, twenty fourteen, there's a
study done at Yale where one cohort of students, young
men at Yale there said the the psychologist said to them,
you're going to be in a negotiation workshop where one
of you is going to play a real estate developer,
the other is going to on the other side is
going to be a bank and we'll see how much
profit you make. At the end of the exercise. Half
(20:11):
the students were told to come in suits and ties.
The other half were told to come dress however you want.
The students who dressed in suit and ties made three
times as much profit in this exercise. There's another study
done in the late nineties where at a university, so
the same cohortive young women. This case young women. The
(20:33):
half of them were told you're going to take this
math test wearing a swimsuit. The other half were told
you're going to take this math test wearing a sweater.
The ones who were wearing a sweater do vastly better.
What does this all teach us? This all teaches us
that we feel like what we wear, and we perform
how we feel. As put beautifully by the NFL Hall
of Fame running back Dion Sanders, if you feel good,
(20:55):
you play good. If you play good, they pay good
exactly right. So another study that confirmed just the existential
importance of clothing was is that when people someone wakes
up in the morning sad or even depressed, what are
they likely to do. They're likely to put on a
(21:17):
baggy sweatshirt and whatever pair of pants they can find.
What the studies have shown is they're just exacerbating their
depression because they're dressing how they feel. They're not dressing
how they want to feel. So what does the research
show that? The research shows that at least one psychologists
claim up to ninety percent of female depression the cure
is in her closet. In other words, if someone wakes
(21:37):
up feeling sad or depressed, put on a floaty dress,
put on patterns, wear interesting jewelry, mix it up, wear
bright colors, and by the virtue of wearing bright collars
and flowered patterns and funky jewelry, people will feel happier.
So it says that if we want to feel a
certain way, let's just dressed way. And I love that example, Chris,
(21:57):
because it just shows how the Bible instructs us that
so much of life it's in our hands. I mean,
we can all decide what to wear in the morning.
At that heart, we all have to do it right.
So and there's a there's the Bible guides us as
to how to do it. The Bible says, decide what
you want to feel, and just dress that way. So
if you work from home, just where a suit and
(22:20):
tire or whatever the equivalent is, act like you're in
the office, you perform better. The studies show.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
That too, even at home.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, so if someone's working from home, they should not
wear sweatpants. Even if even if the zoom camera can
only see what their shirt is, they should not wear sweatpants.
The studies show that people who work from home, but
dress like they're in an office perform much better than
those who work from home and dress like they're at home,
(22:47):
which they are. No if you're working. I mean, I
talk about Tom Wolfe, the great novelist, Tom Wolfe, who's
a daughter's a friend of mine, And Alexandra told me
that her father, who was one of the great creative
minds of the twentieth century, great novelist, he wore that
white suit every day in the privacy of his home
when he wrote. He dressed for work, and by the
(23:07):
virtue of dressing for work, his creative juices unloaded. And
he's given us so many great gifts in his novels.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah wow, so clothing dating. But you go through.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
A number of topics and the book is daunting. It's
nine hundred pages, Is that right? Yep, it's nine unded pages.
But it doesn't have to be read in one sitting.
You can write through chapter a chapter or even topics.
How mentioned some of the other topics that you go through.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Well, yeah, there, let's take take reframing. So reframing it's
a it's a psychological term that's been coined in the
twenty first century, but it debuts in the Book of
Genesis with the biblical Joseph. So Joseph, of course, is
thrown into slavery by his brothers and has the most
remarkable career of anybody in the Bible. He goes from
(24:04):
being an arrogant teenager to being thrown into a pit,
to being a slave in the home of Potiphar, to
being a prisoner in Pharaoh's jail, to being the viceroy
of Egypt, the number two man in the world. And then,
in this extraordinary string of events, his brothers come to
Egypt to get food during the time of mass starvation.
(24:24):
They come to get food, and Joseph, in this probably
the most dramatic moment in literature, eventually reveals himself and
he says to them, it is not you who sent
me here, but it is God who sent me here. Basically,
God sent me here to liberate the world from a famine.
So he reframes the experience. He says, yes, of course
(24:45):
it was I'm here in Egypt because you threw me
into the pit and route to slavery, he said. But
that's not how I'm thinking about it, he said. I'm
reframing it. I'm going to conceive of my situation as
I'm not here because you threw me into slavery. I'm
going to conceive mysel situation is I'm here because I'm
a messenger and an agent of God to save the
world from starvation. So he reframes the entire experience, and
(25:08):
by the virtue of reframing, he's able to reconcile with
his brothers. And reframing is such a radical concept that
his brothers actually never accepted because Joseph invents the concept
of reframing. And so what is reframing tells us? It
tells us take your experience, except the full truth of
the experience, but put it in a frame, probably a
(25:31):
different frame that has a purpose, meaning, and a benefit.
And that's exactly what Joseph does. He said, I'm in Egypt.
Yes I was brought here as a slave, but I'm
here with purpose and the meeting that's to save the
world from starvation, which he did. So fast forward to
the twenty first century, so we now have the concept
of reframing. So a great example from the book was
(25:52):
Jess Fox who was an Olympian not long ago, and
before her skiing race, she gets very sick. She probably
ha foo poison right before the skiing race, and she's
vomiting right before the race, and she's with her mother,
who was also an olympian, so the mother presumably knew
sports psychology. And even though she's so sick before she
(26:13):
has to perform at an athletic peak, what does she say.
She said, this is a sign something great's about to happen.
So she reframes the experience, she said, said, she said,
this isn't just me being sick. This is a sign
that something greats about to happen. She won the gold.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Wow. So if she if she didn't reframe it, she
might have not got it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Might dropped out of the race right exactly exactly. So
let's say she didn't reframe it and she said, you know,
I'm so sick, I feel weak. I can't possibly compete athletically,
let alone against the best athletes in the world. But
she didn't. She reframed. She said, no, this is a
sign something great's about to happen. You know. Another terrific
example that that I think everyone who works can really
(26:55):
learn from, which is you know, most people of course,
is again the biblic Joseph. So Joseph is the only
person described in the Bible as having been a success. Okay,
So and then you have to say, well, when is
he called the success. He's not called the success when
he's the viceroy of Egypt. He's only called the success
(27:16):
when he's a slave in Pottyfar's home and he's a
prisoner in Pharaoh's jail. So how could Joe and we
know he was a success because he receives promotions in
both places. He goes into Pottiphar's home being a lowly
slave and emerges as the head slave. And then he
goes into the prison as a lowly prisoner and emerges
as the head prisoner. So he is a success as
a slave and as a prisoner. So what how does
(27:38):
Joseph become a success, the only person in the Bible
called the success in these two highly unlikely places to
become successful. Well, now we know exactly how it's because
in the twenty first century, social scientists have discovered a
concept called job crafting. What job crafting teaches us is
you should take whatever tasks you're performing in your job
(28:01):
and craft them so that you understand the ultimate purpose
and meaning of your job. So, for instance, there was
a study out of the University of Pennsylvania in two
thousand and one of hospital custodians. So some of the
custodians said, you know, we're just cleaning the floors. Other
custodians said, we're creating a healthy and happy environment where
(28:22):
patients can get better. And the custodians who job crafted,
who said, I'm an indispensable component in a system of healing,
I'm a healer. The custodians who said I'm a healer.
And by the way, they're totally right. A hospital custodian
is a healer. I mean, anyone who who doubts that,
just you know, would you want to be in a
hospital room that was dirty and messy or would you
(28:42):
want to be one that was sanitary and kempt. And
of course everyone can acknowledge that hospital custodians are a
crucial part of the healing process. And these custodians realize that,
and they said, no, I'm a healer. I'm an indispensable
part of the healing process. The hospital custodians who conceived
them selves as healers ends up getting promotions and doing
much better financially than those who didn't. And the study
(29:06):
has been replicated across a whole variety of professions. There
was an example of President Johnson went to visit NASA
and he complimented a custodian about the cleanliness of the floors,
and he said, you're obviously a very good custodian. He said, well,
I'm actually helping put a man on the moon. It
was under Kennedy. I'm actually it was under Kenned. Yeah,
I'm actually helping put a man on the moon. And
(29:27):
so this custodian and NASA under Kennedy, he said, by
the virtual cleaning the floors, I'm part of a system
that's putting a man in the moon. And so Joseph
is the original job crafter. But now we understand that
in order to be successful in your occupation, how do
you do it? Just think of the mission that you
serve through the tasks that you perform. And it really
works for everybody. So I think what the Bible is
(29:50):
guiding us to is take what job you have and
think about just how important it is and how important
you are. And if you craft your job that way,
if you think of your work as part of a
system to accomplish something really important, and I would say
that anytime somebody is parting with money for a good
or service, some kind of social good is being done,
(30:10):
and someone should think of themselves as an indispensable part
of that system. And what the social science says is
they're much more likely to get promotions and they're much
more likely to make more money.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Wow, this is It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And you can replicate these with different topics throughout the book.
And can what do you want people to take away
from the book?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I want people to take away from the book that
the Bible is the best self help book ever written.
That whether the question is what should I wear in
the morning, whether the question is how much should I
give to charity, whether the question is how many hours
a week should I work? Have a whole chapter on that.
The Bible gets it totally right to the hour, the
answer is fifty five max.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And so.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
But no matter what the question is, clothing, work, charity,
it's every question that we ask, from the most practical
to the most existential, It's all so clear in the Bible.
The Bible anticipated truly everything. And now we know with
social scientific certitude that the Bible is right on all
(31:17):
of its claims. And the reason why the book is
nine hundred pages is because it has to be comprehensive,
because if the book were one hundred and seventy pages,
then someone could say, rightly, so, well, maybe you just
cherry picked some examples. But I said, no, okay, I'll
do everything. I'll do everything. I'll do everything I possibly can.
I'll make it a long book. I'll cover dozens of
different subjects in a whole variety of different domains so
(31:37):
we can test is the Bible right comprehensively. So I
have chapters on diversity and anti fragility, and then I
have very different chapters on routine and future orientation, and
on Stockholm syndrome, and then bystanding. So it's long because
it's comprehensive. And I think what it demonstrates is that
the Bible is just ready able and almost asking us
(31:59):
please let me go you. And the Bible's guidance is
always right and not always is always right. It's always interesting,
like every question the Bible asks, every story, even every law,
it's all so interesting. And I wrote, God was right
to demonstrate that the Bible is really our ultimate self
help book. That anytime someone's wrestling with a challenge or
(32:20):
asking a question or an opportunity. And those questions might
be how should I educate my children? To should I
let my child go out and ride the subway by himself?
To how many dates should I go on before I
get married? To what should I wear in the morning.
It's all there in the Bible, and I just hope
to bring it home in the most practical way, just
(32:42):
showing how the Bible's intensely practical guidance. It's always true.
Wisdom is just so there and so ready for seekers
of all kinds.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Well, it makes everybody, I think, want to read the Bible.
Let me ask you one other question about what about fertility.
You know, people that can't conceive, and uh, what should
they do? Should they do in vitro fertilization?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Absolutely? Yeah, I mean the Bible of course doesn't address
in vitro fertilization because it wasn't a technology that was
around them, but uh, absolutely, I mean the Bible. The
Bible says right at the beginning, be fruitful and multiply.
And if some people can't be fruitful in the conventional way,
then they should find in other ways to be to
be fruitful. So yeah, absolutely, having having children is is
(33:28):
a wonderful thing. It's a blessed thing. I know that
from personal experience, we're blessed to have four And and
the Bible is all about having children and uh and
uh yeah, I think that, uh that that there's a
there's a fullness to the life experience that comes from
being a parent. It's the most enjoyable and fulfilling thing.
And and if if someone can't do it the conventional way,
(33:49):
and and the Bible is full of people who can't
do with the conventional way. I mean Abraham and Sarah
only conceived by a miracle when he's one hundred and
she's ninety mm hmm. The story of Hannah has a
difficulty conceiving. So it's a it's a it's a very
difficult problem for people that that was identified and articulated
by the biblical author and now we have technological solutions
(34:11):
for it.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, So how can people get the book? Mark?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
So it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Anyone can
go to godwsrite dot com and order it there, and
anyone can also email me at Mark at godwsright dot com.
I'd love to engage with any of your listeners, Chris, Wow,
well this.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Is fascinating Mark, and I love the book and I
think it's going to be a blessing to many many people.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Oh, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
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