Malcolm-Jamal Warner

Malcolm-Jamal Warner sits down with Questlove Supreme for a deeply personal conversation about creativity, pivots, and expression. The accomplished actor discusses his latest album, the Grammy-nominated Hiding In Plain View. Malcolm speaks passionately about his love of poetry and playing bass. Team Supreme also dives into his incredible acting career and the heaviest performance he has nailed, role model. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen.
This is Quest Love Supreme. Sitting here with family. This
is uh uh Fonticcolo and lia. I keep forgetting that
we're now on YouTube and I hear we're doing well.

(00:24):
I want to talk like an old person. We're doing
well on the YouTube. I hear, I hear, ye, this
is what the internet. Yes, yo, someone all right, someone
ragged me hard this entire weekend. Of course, a vacation
and a mirror are not synonymous with each other. But

(00:46):
I took three days off to go off the grid,
and I gathered a whole bunch of friends and we
went to Las Vegas to do a bunch of and
I'm gonna say it correctly this time, escape rooms. What
I didn't know was behind my back. Everyone's been teasing
me because I've been calling it escape the room, which

(01:07):
is right. The look on Fante's face right now is right. Everyone.
Finally someone had the heart to say, hey, I'm here,
by the way, in case you it's not a call
to escape the room. It's just called escape room. They
were basically telling me that I'm talking like an old
black person. Did you have a good time at the
time of my life, you know, solving murder mysteries I

(01:32):
want to do one escape rooms? Is how I that?
Who's going to get in on the inner circle? Now
you know, I've made a lot of friends this year. No,
I'm serious, I made a whole bunch of friends this year.
So I got to weed them out. And the best
way to figure out who is who? You only want

(01:55):
smart people on your team. Well, no, no, no, no no,
it's not just that, no, no, no, because the thing
is is that at escape rooms and Japanese and I
mentioned like she in Japanese restaurants is also a litmus test.
It's not about who succeeds or who finds it natural.
It's about I mean, even with total amateurs, it tells

(02:15):
me a lot about their willingness to figure it out.
If they don't know it, do they fake it till
they make it till they Like I'm telling you, escape
rooms are are the best way to to figure out
what kind of people you're dealing with. So I had
a lot to learn this weekend. Anyway, my whole point
was that I use the word and I shouldn't have

(02:38):
been using the so anyway, so we're on the YouTube now,
and I'm hearing that we're doing well on the internet,
on the internets. I will say that oftentimes we speak
and we talk about heroes or people that we idolize,
and we have the go to names that you know,
the biggest achiever and all that stuff. But I will

(03:00):
say that oftentimes we overlook certain people because you know,
sometimes things are hiding in plain sight, like your glasses
on your forehead, and you're tearing the room up looking
for your glasses and they're like right here on my forehead.
I will say that in the preparation that I took

(03:23):
to do this particular episode, it reminded me that our
guest today is probably the individual to whom I vicariously
lived my life through. And you got to understand that,
you know, I'm a very specific situation, being born in

(03:44):
nineteen seventy one, three years after the whole Civil rights
you know revolution, I'm born into like one of the
first free generations or in terms of laws, like you're
not allowed to kill us, or at least you're supposed
to be. It's weird that my definition of freedom is
that legally it's it's it's it's illegal to kill me,

(04:08):
which is sort of a sad state of affairs or
where we are as a country. Um. But that said,
you know, there are heroes and people to look up to,
and oftentimes I was, we often look up people way
older than us, like of course, for a lot of America,
the Jackson Five where the first people that we vicariously
lived through as heroes. And then you know, there's other

(04:30):
people that came along. But you know, when I turned
into a teenager, there really wasn't I mean, besides maybe
you know, I mean there's Gary Coleman, Todd Ridges and
Janet Jackson like him, Fields like people my age. But
that's the thing when you're right, but when yeah, when

(04:51):
you're the minority, and you know, it might hit different
from Fante who's way younger than I am, you know,
but for me at least, like this, this gentleman was
a very big part of my life as I got
into like my junior high, in my high school years
and so and when you look at the span of

(05:12):
his career, um, you can clearly see an individual who
like has evolved not only you know as an actor
on television, but you know also in theaters on and
off Broadway, as a musician, a Grammy Award winning musician,
as a poet, as a producer, as a director, like
there's so many, I mean even as as host of

(05:35):
S ANDL Like there's a lot of even small, minuscule
uh milestones that our guest has has done throughout his
life that I paid attention to. And I've been waiting
so long for this conversation, not just you know, as
a I don't know if are we are we journalists

(05:56):
right now? Today we can be I feel like in
this way, I remember, you know, even though we have
a long running you know, going on our sixth year
as with this podcast, like I don't feel like we're
journalist or whatever. But you know, I'm not looking forward
to it as a journalist, but just as a person
that really gets to fan out and ask questions to

(06:17):
the person that he personally deemed, you know, like that person.
I don't know what to say, but ladies and gentlemen,
welcome Malcolm Jamal wanted to quest love supreme sir, Thank you,
thank you, yes, thank you. I gotta say this though,
because I've listened to your show, because I know you

(06:38):
were you know, you're like, no bullshit A geek just's
no bullshit, like you know I get from you from
UF and both like I don't go for bullshit. Um,
so I'm looking forward. I'm so looking forward to having
this conversation. But to be honest, to hear that from you,
amir is a trip from me. Like you never know

(06:59):
how you can affect people, right right, and you never
know how you, you know, come off to someone. You
may come off with someone in a certain way, and
that was not the intent, right right, bro? I have
loved you for years of pointing years some years, and
sometimes that is crazy because but but sometimes see it

(07:23):
would be cool as hell, right, but sometimes I see
you and I'd be like did I say something wrong
last time? What? Really? Yeah? So like like honestly, I
spend there, I spent so much of my time like
thinking like wow, I don't know, I don't know if
he likes me, Like I'm not sure I think with
you all right, this is definitely the this See, this

(07:44):
is why this conversation is necessary. I'm I'm I'm at
a way different place now in my life for this
very specific twenty twenty three year. It's twenty twenty three, right, Oh,
I'm fifty two now, it's in your birthday too, like okay,

(08:04):
and I'm it's probably springtime right now. No, I think
a big part of my old life and I'm gonna
I'm gonna say this a lot. I'm trying my hardest
not to sound like the jail cat that discovers religion
and then it is on fire for like seven years,
you know that, that type of annoying person. But I'll

(08:26):
just say that in this in this portion of my life, yes,
I think that I avoided anyone I looked up to,
and dude, Steve and I'm not even named like Steves
is the same thing, like you don't call me, Like
how come you don't call or that sort of thing.

(08:47):
And I think oftentimes I get in my head like,
oh man, that's that's that's that's way too. You know,
you make up excuses. So I apologize for my standoff
ish nature, but I assure you that this is the
elephant that's afraid of the mouse and the mouse that's
afraid of the elephent thing. So well, I got that.

(09:08):
But seriously, even even when doing I had to do
international press for the movie for Summer of Soul and
someone I think this is when I was in um
we were in Holland, and someone asked me, like, you know,
what was the first moment. Like I often ask a
question like what's your first musical memory, someone asked me

(09:30):
something like, what was like the moment that you felt like,
oh you could do this too. And I don't know
if you remember this, but this was you did a
segment once or Entertainment Tonight or at least Entertainment Tonight
covered it where they gave you and four of your
friends like four video cameras and you guys shot around

(09:54):
New York City. And I just remember the way you're
laughing right now, tells me you remember. I just remember.
The backdrop was to the Jackson State of Shock. However, however,
I watched that moment and again, yeah, it was was
Spike Lee a thing? Then? Yes he was. However, to

(10:16):
me that that moment I watched, I was like, oh,
we can do other things. So that was that was
to you, that was just some thirty seven year ago
segment for a television show that you probably haven't even
thought about in decades. But for me, that was a moment.

(10:39):
I mean, dude, even the jam in on the one
moment that other producers thread that I spoke of, like
with the one thing we all have in common was
we saw that episode and then in two months later
we all get Cassio sk Ones and the first thing

(11:01):
you do is you do all the cuss words. Then
you do jamming on the one, you do all the
things you saw like it was a toy. And then
there's the moment you're like, oh, I could put music
in this thing. And I assure you any classic hip
hop producer that started in that really got their foot

(11:23):
in the nineties. I I swear to God God that
for a lot of us, that was our moment to
know what hip hop was, you know what I mean.
So it's weird that you're you're such a part of
these historical moments that you yourself probably haven't even thought of.
Like Wow, I'm like, I'm like a watershed for a

(11:45):
lot that has happened, and you know, you don't register.
Oh my god, this is the longest intro ever that
I mean, he said something, he says something in the middle,
it's like fifteen minutes. Anyway, Malcolm, how are you man?
Great man, that's great, that's great, And yo, thank you
for sharing what you shared and I'm glad that I

(12:08):
was right that I could bring that up in a
spirit that you would receive it and it wouldn't come
off like, you know, me trying to be a dick
or you'd be defensive. Man. Beautiful moment. That was my interstinct,
you know. And and it might have been an older
verse to me that wouldn't have done it just because ah,
but you know, like you, I'm fifty two, I'm beginning
to like really embrace like the wisdom that comes with that,

(12:31):
you know, so to be aby to have that exchange
and it be's cooler with exchange that that was just
I appreciate. We're we are what you call evolved adults. Now, yeah, yeah,
it's crazy. Congratulations, I'm serious watching it between two black men.
It's beautiful. Word. Thank you. So I'll ask you what

(12:52):
was your first musical memory hearing Graham Central Station in
my mother's living room. Wow? Really, I just remember, I go,
what what is that? And it never understood until twenty
something years later when I started playing bass. I was like, oh, wow,

(13:17):
based is something that that resonated with me at you know,
three years old, right, So I just remember and I
know I've heard of music before that. But I just
remember a moment hearing hair and hearing this voice and
then the guitars and the music, and it was just

(13:37):
it was crazy, but it had a profound effect. Not
not to self promote or self plug but I mean,
you know, half of our at least more than half
of our listeners know that I'm currently right now at
the beginning of the slide of the Family Stone documentary.
But for me, one of the hardest ounce to climb,

(14:01):
the hardest mountain to climb of this whole process isn't
even slide like slides already in the can slides interviews
are done. However, I've really truly thought like the likelihood
of getting Larry to cooperate, and this thing was the
equivalent of like a Steph Curry shot from all the

(14:24):
way the other end of the court and you pray
to God that it goes in the court. And he
just literally, as of this speaking like, just agreed to
be a part of it. So like, I'm going to
grill the hell out of Larry Graham and yeah, yeah,
take advantage of that opportunity exactly exactly, because you know,

(14:45):
all too often, like there's not a lot of in
depth interviews even with you, besides like the very little
that I knew of you, like when you were like
when Cynthia Horner was coming you right on magazine and
stuff like that, Like there's really you know a lot
of my don't forget about the come on, I had

(15:06):
to pull out the whole pull out post exactly like
for me, Like there's there's just not much in depth
information that you get to find out about. So, but
when did you first realize like coming I'm assuming that
you came to the base later in life, Like how
old were you when you first like decide I'm gonna

(15:29):
try this twenty six that I know that has to
be intimidating. How long was it before you picked it up?
And how many years did you give yourself to really
master it? So the whole reason I started playing bass
was because I was working on Malcolm and Eddie right,

(15:50):
and I was miserable. Really, I was miserable on that
show the Michelle period. No, it was mister Michelle was
during that period. But it was because um I had
spent eight years you know, at NBC in an environment
that mister Cosby made everyone ultra aware of the images

(16:12):
of people of color were putting on the airwaves, right,
So eight years of that, then I go to UPN
and it was like having a top university and then
being stuck in fucking junior college. You know, home Man right, right,
But Malcolm Manetti was not Homeboys and the Butler Guy.

(16:35):
But here's the thing, though, there was a lot of
work that I put into There's like a lot of
you know, blood, literal tears, literal sweat I put into
that show because I came from Even though I knew
what UPN's programming was, I was like, Okay, well they've
seen me for eight years to be a part of
a show they made that made history without relying on

(16:58):
uh stereotypes. So my thinking was, okay, well that's what
they want here. I've watched mister Cosby run that show
for eight years. I know that. You know, the stereotypical
things you didn't see on the show was not because
the writers were not writing it. It was because mister
Cosby was saying, no, that's not the show we're doing.

(17:19):
That's not who these that's not who the hubsubos are.
That the drive by mentality you have when you're writing
black comedy, That doesn't belong in the show. So literally,
I watched them for eight years shutting down writers, making
them go back to square one and rewrite the script
that's not based on stereotypes. Right, So all that I
get to UPN like, okay, well they know how this

(17:41):
goes and realize that one album was not Bill Cosby.
We were not doing Bill Cosby numbers. So I would
come to work every day fighting writers, producers, directors, studio, network,
fellow actor, viewing public because there was a certain standard
that I wanted to continue uphold. And UPN's whole marketing

(18:07):
thing was the antithesis of what I had come from.
What did the writers room look like? A bunch of
white people? The writers rooms? Yeah, but what did it
look like? It was mostly white writers on Cosby. I
don't think we ever had more than three black riders

(18:29):
on staff at the time. At the time on how
many writers are normally in the room, oof, they could
be eight ten, So typical sitcom will have eight to
ten writers, yeah, and a show runner and they pick Okay,

(18:49):
I get it. So so Malcolm Edny was it was
the same kind of the same kind of man. We
may have had four writers at one time. But I mean,
you know, just I was just miserable and I was
looking for a hobby, something that I wouldn't turn into
a career. So the directing started out as a hobby.
Um and and that State of Shock video you were

(19:12):
talking about was actually that was really my entree in uh,
you know, let me really see what this directing thing
is all about. Because the first two years of the show,
we would do this Cosby Show Cosby Kids Tour. Me
and Lisa would always talk about, yeah, we want to
be triple threats, you know, we want to write after
and directing wood whoop doooooh. Like after two and a
half years of saying that, I was like, let me

(19:33):
see if that's something I want to do, something I
even can do. So that State of Shock video, I
laughed because that was literally my first shot at the
attempt at directing. And then you did on The Magnificent
and you also did Any Heartbreak anyak? Yeah, yeah with Brian.
What was that? Brian? What I remember day y'all were

(19:54):
in the video they showed it behind the scenes of
Any Heartbreak. I was like, it was you and it
was impressive because it was also the actor from Head
of the class who was a became a director. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Brian and Brian Robbins. Yeah yeah, so the so the
directing started as a hobby became a career. So by
the time I was on Malcolm and Eddie, I was like, Okay,
I need a hobby, something that's not acting, not directing,

(20:14):
something that will never become a career. I've always wanted
to play music. I'll never be so if I, in fact,
if I just practice scales to a metronomeber in my
dressing room, that would keep me from caring as much
about the show. I'm putting so much of myself into
the show that's not loving me back in the way
that I would like, let me just practice scales to

(20:35):
a mention room. That would kind of put me in
the zone kind of place. I'll never be one of
those corny actor dudes who try to do music. I'll
never start a band, right, I'll never record the CD.
I'll just do this. And then it became it became
a whole other thing because like, like, like really, who

(20:58):
gets off from practicing scales to a metric in their
dressing room in between scenes? Right? The pivot is real, man, Yeah,
pivoting is real. It's so weird we're having this conversation
right now because right now I'll say that creatively, you know,

(21:22):
I'm I'm let me stop painting it, like I'm being
forced to, like they have guns to my head. But
you know, we've been working like for all I can
say is that the Roots album is essentially finished. I'm
definitely using a lot of you know, I'll think of
ways to hold up install the process. You know, there's

(21:46):
a better song, there's a better song. But this morning
I was like, man, you've made a promise to yourself
that you were going to learn how to thoroughly play piano,
like thoroughly play it and not that whole like three
chords at it. Like I'm a three chord at a
time person where I could do three chords and then

(22:06):
stop the thing, and then I got to figure out
the next chords and figure out and then I'll struggle through.
That's like my level of songwritings. But you know, I
was just like, man's way too late for you, Like
I talked myself out of the process, Like it's way
too late for you to even start to think that

(22:27):
you can play piano as good as you play drums, like,
if I could just get my piano thing down, then
my songwriting level could go to the next level. But
you know, I think I was too intimidated by the
process to actually think that I could make it happen.
But I'll ask you from practicing your scales to like

(22:50):
knowing exactly what you want musically and producing your own records,
Like how long did that process take from twenty six too?
When do you feel like, yeah, I could do this
shit all right? So let me go back real quick
to address something you said. So I don't so where
are you now with the needing to play piano as
well as you? You know, this is probably going to

(23:13):
be the last album in which I will go to
either James Poyser or Kamal or Ray Angry and be like, Okay,
so I need this chord Deackgard and like talk my
way through it and sort of morph this whole CSI
process of trying to figure out how to get what's
out of here and to the fingers next year, damn it,
I'm learning how to play piano the way I really

(23:35):
want to learn it, like as good as James, which
I know takes time, and you know, I'm trying to
disprove the fact that you can't teach an old dog
new trick. So that's why I was asking you, got you?
Got you? How timidating was it to go from I
think I'm gonna learning the basse to holy shit, I

(23:57):
can learn the bass to right right? And the winner
is Malcolm Jama Warner for like, Okay, this was quick.
So you know you don't have to you don't have
to play keys, you don't have to play piano. After
on as you play bass to write dope songs. You
know you realize that, right. I just want you to
to keep that mind. I've no I've I've proven that
one can only know how to play drums and still

(24:20):
produce music. But it's just oftentimes, like the ideas come
like so often that you know, I feel like I'm
letting great ideas go because I don't have an outlet
to get somebody to translate my you know, which is
why I want to learn to do it myself. Yeah. So,

(24:42):
speaking of which, fante, do you play an instrument? Nah? Well,
the only instrument I officially learned to play was trumpet. Um.
I played trumpet all through like middle school and like
some high school I was. I was like, all fake man.
I was first chair. Wait you first chair? Yeah, I
was first chair. I was first chairing like my band
and I got school band. Then when I leave first

(25:03):
chair and I'm just fine listening out now, I was
third chair. It's all state man. But but then when
I got to high school, you know, you couldn't play
ball and play trumpet at the same time play band.
So I just played football. But uh keys, I know
some I know theory, I know, like just basic theory.
But I'm not a player by any stretch. All the
um vocal arrangements and stuff I do. It's just really

(25:25):
just by ear. You know, trumpet in hand. Could you
go to where you were in Hell? I'm sure it's done.
Played that shit at thirty years um, but you know
you're better blues left you sell it, bleak, you can
sell I ain't playing the Yeah, I know, I know, yeah, trumpet, Uh, piano,

(25:50):
you know, I know, just basic like you know, chords
and just like theory, um. And then with being around
so many musicians, like particularly like vocal arrangements, like some
of my nerve fans just like, oh you're saying if
major seven in that quarter. I'm just like, I take
your word for it, but but I know, just a

(26:10):
little bit. I don't play. I'm not a player by you.
I dare used to play the recorder if that matters.
I don't think I could go back like I used to.
Yeah that was that was in seventh grade. Yeah, yes,
you were saying, Malcolm, I'll offer you this. Uh, and
then I'm getting into answer your question. Uh. In terms

(26:30):
of old dog learning new tricks, I picked up trumpet
two years ago. How's it going. It's it's so nasty,
it's you know, I'm just getting to the point where
she started to love me back a little bit, right,
But it's it's no. It gives me a greater appreciation

(26:51):
for music because I'm having a new relationship with with music.
So like, so I picked the base. I was twenty six, right, um,
a year and a half after you know, realizing that
the metronoma scales not happening. I used to hold jam
sessions like at my house, just play with cats. And
a year and a half after playing base, I went

(27:13):
to m I. I had like a three month hiatus
from Alcolin Eddie and I went to Musicians Institute and
they're like ten week base immersion program. I was in
way over my head. What do you learn in ten weeks?
It's they throw so much at you, and it was
it was stuff that I couldn't it was every day
and yeah, it was every day. Literally. It took me

(27:36):
a good three or four years to be able to
digest what I had learned, you know, not what I
had learned those ten weeks, but the information that I
had a mass in those ten weeks. It took me
years for it to make sense. But I say that
to say so because I play with cats who have
great ears. I dove head first into theory because I

(27:58):
needed to at least be able to communicate. I don't
have to speak the language, right. Yeah. And I was
also clear that you know, like you know, in playing
with other musicians, in starting a band, I really can't
be that corny actor dude who wants to get into
music like I got to take it seriously and I
have to respect it enough that real musicians who I

(28:19):
want to play with understand that I respected enough, you know,
and want to rock with me. And as a musician also,
you know, guide me along the way that makes sense. Right,
So as a bass player, I've always used music theory
as my hack instead of using my ear. So on bass,

(28:39):
I can play a fourth anywhere on the neck because
I know where the fourth is analytically, and I know
where fourth is logistically, not because I could hear the
fourth right. So now playing trump muscle memory and just
thought like, I know, you know, I know where fourth
is in the muscle memory and the theory of it.
I know where fourth is, so you can get away

(29:03):
with Okay if I know, if I know what key
I'm in and I got the progression, I'm good and
you can do that without hearing. But on trumpet, as
you know, pante, you got to hear the note before
you play it, right. So now I'm like, oh, that's
what a fourth sounds like. Okay. It's just given me
a whole different appreciation for music because I started playing

(29:25):
trumpet two years ago. At the time, when you're doing this,
going to jam sessions, like what part of the United States?
Are you in New York? Are you in California? I'm
in I'm in La Okay, So back, let's go back
to nineteen ninety five. If you want to find a
jam session or a spot that will let cats work
things out, like where are you going? Like that part.

(29:46):
It was easy because there were these cats, Um Cat
Ron Kat Spearman. They had this house that was kind
of down the hill from me, and they were a
band and they were a whole band that lived together, okay,
and so they had you know, they had they always
had the music set up down in you know, the
bottom floor of the house. So I icicle over there
and kind of jam you know, like literally I met

(30:06):
a cat. I think that actually the cat who sold
me my first bass at the Guitar Center. He was
a drummer, right, So after doing the jam sessions at
roncast crib and then sometimes they would come to my
crib and then at some point, like two days a week,
I would have two different sets of musicians, So I'm
jamming with. When I go to m I they had

(30:28):
a BMI was holding the showcase it and who's when
the showcase was like, listen, we're doing a showcase for BMI.
Since you go here, I'd love for you the host it.
You know, if I give you, I'll give you a
slot to do a song, and I'd love for you
the hosted. So I was like, well, let me do
two songs and cool. She was like, fine, I had
no songs. Yeah, I was gonna say so. Look I

(30:53):
was at Aby. I know, I was working on Coltrane's
Equinox and love We're just ugly head. So I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna do those those two songs, and I'd even
have a band. So the band I'll put together were,
you know, the different cats from the two different jam sessions,
and I make sure that none of them played in

(31:13):
bands together because I wasn't sure what I was trying
to create, but I knew I wanted it like a
little a mix of stuff. But you know, I still
wanted to be wanted it to be my project, and
it wasn't intimidating in terms of like I'll give you
an example. Comedians have to always work out their comedy
in front of a small group of people. Like for me,

(31:36):
performing like it's no people ask all the time, like
you ever get nervous to performing or whatever, And I'll
say that, you know, a typical roots concert nowadays is
somewhere you know, we're somewhere in between five thousand to
maybe depending on the marketplace, you know, nine to ten
thousand people and with that many people, there's no intimacy there,

(32:00):
so I don't have fear. But you know, it's always
in small, smaller clubs and those sort of things like
if you say, if glass bars like yo, come down
the blue note and sit in a song or two,
like I might legit get like uptight about it because
I think in smaller intimate settings musicianship is a weirder

(32:25):
thing for me to do, which I know it's kind
of weird for me to say, like thirty years into
my career to admit, like I have hang ups about
that sort of thing. But for you, though, but would
you do were you ever worried about like air Amir,
would you do with it? You would have your hang
ups and get up tight about it, but would you
still do it? I would still do it because even

(32:47):
now and yeah, sometimes the voice of self doubt is
heavy as hell, but I'm smart enough to just jump
in the pool and say fuck it at the end
of the day, but not before the anxiety of how
good do I have to be to you know, because
like the level of musician nerds that are watching Glasper

(33:08):
are a little bit different than the crowds that you
know want us to play a song that reminds them
of their college period back in two thousand and three.
You know what I mean, this is real, real different.
But for you, you were never at all like keeping
this close to the chest and worrying about people that

(33:30):
are judging you of your other profession that they see
you perfect, you know, and applying it to your musician life. Yeah. No,
I mean I think I think it was you know,
maybe just part audacity. Um, I'm sure. I'm sure there's
also a little a little ego in it, um and

(33:51):
that you know, when you know, when I was doing
when I started doing spoken word, I was I was
really active in the underground spoken word movement in La right,
and because I was always doing poetry always, so there's
a certain of you know, there's a certain level of
audacity to be able to be a poet and you know,
write your shit and be vulnerable and have people you

(34:13):
know judge you and shit. So there's a certain level
of audacity with that. But back when I started, you know,
there was only like one or two poetry spots you know,
in any given city you could go to. So once
it got to the point where you know, neo soul,
you know, start to take off, and then you know

(34:34):
there are poetry spots like all over the place, and
now HBO's got a poetry situation, so there was For me,
it was like, okay, well this is you know, a
really a crowded field, and I have a you know,
I have a love hate relationship with poetry anyway. But
you know, I also I grew up listening to Gil,

(34:57):
Scott Hare and Brian Jackson, Like my dad went to
Lincoln with Gil and briant Um and my dad went
to Lincoln because Linkston went to Lincoln. So like the
whole poetry thing is all like I came out of
the womb listening to Gil and last poets. So when
all this, you know, when now it seems like everybody's

(35:18):
a poet and how fucking celebrities are poets? Too? Right?
And right right, I'm so much on my own ship.
I will I make the disclaimer. I am a poet.
I am not a celebrity who likes to do poetry.
I'm a poet. So I think when like when everybody's

(35:39):
a poet, I was like, well, you know what, Gil
put his stuff to music. I think at some point
the music was still kind of you know, calling me
a bit. But even before I started playing bass, I
used to see you guys in mirror. I don't even
probably don't remember. You guys would do San Diego a
lot up, yes man, Yeah, And I was doing a
play down in Lajoya, so whenever y'all come through, you know,

(36:02):
we be there. And at this point, I wasn't even
you know, I might have thought about bass, but I
wasn't really you know, seriously considered picking up bass. But
I would talk to Hub about bass and and and
and jazz and jazz studies and Okay, so by the
time it came around to fuse the you know, the
music and the poetry, right, it was what you guys

(36:24):
were doing with Ursula Rucker. Yeah, right, like the first
time I heard that first joint, like, you know, right right, yeah,
and and and so I had listened to that for years,
even before thinking about playing bass or any of that.
But when the time came that I had to put

(36:46):
the two together. Because when I started the bass, it
was just to play music, right. I kept the poetry
and the music separate from each other, even though I
was still doing poetry at spots and I was still
doing poetry with other bands. You know, my band like no,
we're We're like we're jazz swumpan, I'm here to play bass.
But what was happening? People weren't really you know, feeling
coming to see me standing in the back with the drummer. Right.

(37:09):
So I at some point I had to uh take
responsibility for being a front the frontman to my own band, right. Um.
And then I started coming. I was coming out of
pocket like two three hundred dollars every time I did
a gig, because once I paid everybody, once I did
print and advertising. Uh, you know, I had somebody, you

(37:29):
know video of the show. I'm coming out of pockets.
I was like, I need to sell a CD so
I can at least not feel like I'm losing money
every time I do a show. But no music. I
had no music. So I was like, all right, I
need to start doing poetry. I need to start, you know,

(37:49):
uh you know coming up with music. Did my poetry
over and then I would go back to the unlocking.
It was like yeah, and then Michelle and dedio Cello,
you know, that first album was like a brand new heavies.
You know, they were you know, they were popping So
all of that made me go, yes, I'm gonna do

(38:11):
poetry and I'm gonna play bass. Fuck what every other
poet out there was doing. I'm want some different shit.
Nobody's doing this, and I'm gonna do it well right,
and it's gonna be good, right, and I know it's
going to be so good that I don't care what
you think about it. Right, Like I'm trying to get

(38:31):
there with my acting. If you told me, yo, you suck. Truthfully,
I'm almost at the place where that wouldn't bother me,
but it might hit me somewhere. Right. You can tell
me as a poet that I suck ward off a
duck's back. It does not affect me at all, because
for me, that's how good I feel I am as

(38:52):
a post So okay, well, if I already feel that
way about the poetry and everybody trying to feel the space,
well let me kick it up a notch, you know,
let me start playing bass while I'm doing poetry, right,
but let me really learn the Eddie Griffin had a
bad right wait in real life? Yeah yeah yeah, yeah

(39:16):
yeah yeah yeah. I didn't know this. So he had
this band. It was like it was like a you know,
a funk a Delic knockoff. He had two bass players,
U is yeah, yeah, yeah, really yeah yeah. That's one
of the things that kind of broke the mystique for him.
And it's like, oh, okay, I'm doing the funk a Delic.

(39:36):
And then I just watched him a lot, and uh,
I watched him so much and listened to him so
much and understood that he's one of those talented cats
you know that can definitely by playing all the stuff,
but he doesn't he's not study. He doesn't know music.

(39:57):
So I was like, Okay, well, if I just do that,
I could get over. But if I actually take the
time to study the language of music, then I could
actually play with really good musicians, you know, who are
gonna rock with me and hold me accountable and not
just be kissing my ass because I'm alan. So like
there was all of that that that that that went

(40:18):
into um so much about the honor, respect, and legitimacy
of being able to call myself a musician around really
good musicians and they can actually acknowledge me, you know,
and to be legit like that's the long game, uh
that I was going for back at twenty eight, and

(40:41):
I think I think you. I think there's also a
thing as well with actors with musicians. If you're an
actor doing music, we know, for damn sure, you're not
doing it for the money, Like you know what I'm saying.
We know, like, Okay, if you're here, you're here for
a choice, you know, I mean, you're making a choice
to be here because you could take care of yourself

(41:03):
so much better, you know what I'm saying doing a
DV do a movie, doing whatever. So there is there
is some skin in the game and that and putting
up product with no label, you know, no promotional budget
like none of that, like everything like coming straight out
of pocket, right, no union right right. But for me,

(41:25):
it's about the art, like like I'm I'm yeah, I'm
I'm creating art and I'm creating timeless art. So who
was the first peer that saw what you were doing
and was like keep doing that? And you it really
kind of stamped it for you. I mean, even though
you um, you mean in terms of the music side
of them. In the music side, I got the poetry

(41:47):
because Ursula Rutger just text me about you, So I
get it. Wow. I think early on Layla Hathaway because
me and Layla go way back. And um so when
I first, you know, put this band together and I'm
out gigging, you know, I had a female vocalist and
Layla would come to my gigs and when the vocalists

(42:10):
would sing, she would leave. What that's that's that's actually
brand for Layla half the way right, And but but
but it's so much Layla. It's so much Layla. It's
not Layla being a dick. It's like she like, if
it's not working for her, she literally cannot physically beat it.

(42:34):
And we're like, when you were I think when you're
one of the best at something, like I mean when
we had Dave and he was saying like how it's
hard for him to watch other comedians know what I'm saying,
because it's just you know, you just constantly looking at
how you could do it better, you know what I mean.
And then with Layla, I mean, with her being you know,
one of the singers in the world. Yeah, I could
see her, you know, walking out waiting said, I know

(42:58):
we wasn't talking about it. Does that mean you're gonna
talk about Jesus children? And how that that came together then,
because that's kind of a beautiful circle back, right, Yeah, yeah,
I love to, So just just go back real quick.
Yeah sorry, just just l the first backwards episode of
Question of Supreme where we started the end way backwards

(43:20):
and that's how conversation goes though, right right there. So
later With later With would come to my gigs often, right,
So even if she didn't dig, you know, whatever singer
we had, she was still supportive and you know, and
I know she wouldn't be rocking just you know, because
so by the way, can let me interrupt one second?

(43:41):
That singer never found out? Did they? Um hopeful? Well,
there were a couple of different singers, you know, a
different different shows, so uh may not. I know that
that wasn't me anyway, and ain't talking about me right
exactly exactly, but Jesus children, Kevin Teasley, who was my

(44:06):
my my MD at the time, had office space in
UM at Westlake, and he's at west Lake, you know,
Rob's at Westlake and they're talking and you know, uh,
you know Capston, he's you know, India my band or whatever.
So I come over, you know, hanging out. They're doing
UM and Layla's actually recordings Jesus Children, and as I'm
there and she knocks it out in one take. Um,

(44:30):
and you know, Rob is playing to me this musical interlude,
and he was telling me how, um, his homeboy uh
had a daughter who was killed at Sandy Hookum, he's
gonna write a poem, you know, and it's gonna go
here and ho nine. I was like, Yo, that's that's dope, right, Um.

(44:52):
So we're hanging out, and then about two weeks later,
he's in town. He's back in town. He's and he's
mixing the record and Robin's like, yo, you know, my man,
he couldn't do it like you know at the you know,
eleventh hour, it's really hit too close to home. Do
you have a poem about Sandy Hook? And I was
like no, but he forgave me the track. I'll go
upstairs and the right one. So he gave me his

(45:15):
iPod shuffle the time, and I went upstairs, and then
about an hour or some change, he came upstairs and
like I spit it to him. He was like yeah,
And I was at a time where I was doing
I was doing a lot of writing at the time,
so it was clearly like a time where I needed

(45:37):
to be on my A game. And it was just
a point in life where I was on my A
game because I was doing so much writing at the
time that I was you know, I was able to
go up. And I know it sounds corny when writers
talk about, oh, well, you know, God was just using
me as the vessel, and you know that's all I say. Now,

(45:58):
so welcome to the ups. And it's a real thing,
and I guess you have to experience it to like
really understand that it's a real thing. And it can
sound corny and cliche, but like that's some real shit
and that night, like the vessel was open and the
universe is said, I just took it all and you know, no,

(46:19):
that's it's it's real. It's it's not corny at all.
I have to say that I really admire the fact
that you are covering poetry because all too often, I
think a typical move would have just been like, okay,
you're an MC, now you're a rapper, that sort of thing.

(46:41):
And the fact that you took on poetry is super admirable.
I know that. You know, Tariq's process is he's such
a morning person, like literally like wakes up, you know,
does whatever, it's yoga and exercise all that stuff. Like
like at five am, he's like the opposite of Quincy
Jones where Quincy Jones said that you know, like yeah yeah,

(47:03):
like that one am is where he gets his magic from.
Tarika is like a embed by nine thirty ten PM
early person, and between six am and maybe nine am
that's usually when the line's share of ideas come. Like

(47:24):
that's his writing time. Like you're never to interrupt him,
wow before eleven am because from five till then, that's
that's his that's his moment, that's his part of his process.
So much Sense always wanted to know because oftentimes, you know,
Teriq will also have like these assignments to do, like
this guy wants him to rhyme on that ship or

(47:44):
you know that where he has a deadline for a record.
But is poetry the same And I guess you could
answer to this also, Fante, Like for a writer when
you have a blank page and the idea isn't coming,
like can you shorter in record time like regurgitate words
to be right right poems? Yeah, I mean you can,

(48:10):
you know, I mean, listen, the thing I tell everybody
man the blank page kicks everybody's ass. Like, I don't
care if you've written a million books, if you've sold
a million records, you know, um it, don't you know?
If that blank page or that blank screen or whatever,
that is the great equalizer because you no matter how
many times you've done it, you still got to do

(48:30):
it again, you know what I mean. And it's and
it's you know, that blank page is that shit is intimidating.
So um yeah, it definitely is a time where you know,
we are somebody like to read and I mean, Malcolm
just you know, someone that's been in the game for
so long. We've been in it so long to where
it's like it's kind of technically impossible to be bad,

(48:51):
you know what I mean. But my mentality is always
good as the enemy of great. I'm so technically good,
Like I can just write it'll be good, but I
ain't going for good. I'm trying to be great, you
know what I mean. And so a lot of times
if you're under the gun, that's kind of where I
think the alpha state thing can kind of come because

(49:12):
you're not thinking and you're just kind of just writing,
and it's like, oh yeah, this shit just kind of
came out. But it definitely is a degree of professionalism
where I just think it's not about inspiration. Inspiration is fleeting,
you know what I'm saying. Inspiration, you can be inspired
one day and you may not be inspired again, you know,

(49:33):
for months. But it's more so just about dedication, just
dedication to the craft and just the more you do it.
You know, even if I'm not for me every day,
even if I'm not writing, I'm always having just some
kind of prompts or something like I may just like
take a word, I hear a word I hear on
TV or something, and I'll just write like ten words

(49:54):
that rhyme with that word, you know what I mean.
In your memo, like in your in your iPhone memo, Yeah,
I got page after page after page of I'll have
string of rhyming words or just prompts or ideas and
then I'll just contextualize it later, you know what I mean.
But um, but yeah, it definitely is a practice, and

(50:14):
for me in my career, you can do it at
any time. If you just say, hey, I need something,
you know, you can turn it around. But um, it's
that memory that working that muscle trying to be you know,
get that greatness consistently over and over and over again. Um,
that for me is always the best practice. And what's
your what's your general practice with with poetry? Like does

(50:38):
it hit you when it hit you? Or do you
give yourself like exercising assignments to you know, to write.
I would really like to do that. I would really
like to be more disciplined in my writing practice. Now
I'm older to understand why your good is considered the practice.
I understand why law is considered the practice, you know.
And now, um, you know, I'm getting into the frame

(51:01):
of mind that I need to treat my writing as
a practice. So when I have an assignment, it doesn't
take me as long because like lately, you know, because
I'm not I'm not writing you know, with an output
that I was. You know, it may take me a
little longer to write a piece, but I have to.
You know, I love putting way too much on my plate,

(51:21):
so I'm always fighting. I'm constantly fighting overwhelm, you know.
So just trying to practice base, you know, now practice horn, Um,
you know, put time into writing, but the production and
being a present husband and father. It's like there's so
much so I keep being overwhelmed. But I think it

(51:44):
would serve me better if I can find a discipline
like Turek or like you find they find something that
doesn't have to be you know, a sit down dude,
like you know, take ten minutes and you know, just
check in where mind and just right from there. I
think that would benefit me greater than the path of Okay, Well,

(52:06):
you know, when I get something or I have to
write this out let me. I'll see where I am
and you know, at some point the inspiration will hit me,
you know, or figure out what the outline is. Like
there's no there's no one single approach to my writing
that is the one sometimes for me. Like it's something

(52:28):
that you know, it goes from a drought to a deluge, right,
it just goes from nothing and then all of a
sudden everything just kind of comes. Um. Do you have
those moments where you kind of go back and forth
for the words just it's quiet, and then all of
a sudden it just comes out of the Yeah, Like
there are some poems that you know that will it
will take me weeks to write, but then you know,
there's a time of ros sit down and then it'll yeah,

(52:50):
you know, then you finish it, and then you you know,
and then you come back a couple of days later
and you read it. At least for me, my experience
is like I read it and then go, wow, I
really meant every word that yeah, you know, like and
for it to come out the way it came out
and every word of it be true. Wow, that's really dope. Again,

(53:12):
feeling like Okay, well that's the channel and the channel's
opening up, and like does it all come and just
I'm writing as fast as I can. Let me ask,
because I will say, especially in the times that we
live now, this entire year feels like a five year period.
I feel like everything that's happened to me this year

(53:32):
happened like five years ago. And I'm reading lines like, oh,
holy shit, that was March. So my question to you
is one, I'm really curious about your latest miles long
album title, which is Hiding in plain View. You'll be
pressed to find any interview I've done in the last

(53:53):
year where the quote hiding in plain sight literally was
that was my story? Like, you know, even whatever, like
the evolution of who I am now, I was the
king of hiding in plain sight like and everything. So
one that struck with me. But two it's also seven

(54:13):
years in between projects, which you know, if this one
year feels like five years, that I know that seven
years for you has to almost be like twenty years.
I forgot what what album was. So Stevie had an
album coming out and it was it had been a
lot of years since this album, and they asked him why,
you know, what took so long, and he said, you know,

(54:35):
sometimes you have to live life to have something to
write about, write about the facts, you know. So a
lot of was just you know, adjusting to you know,
moving to Atlanta. I was, you know, being on the resident,
you know, being a husband and father. You know, just
at some point it's it's really hard to balance or

(54:56):
rather I've not become successful at balancing it at all. Um,
the three things that I can't let falter is work,
my wife or my daughter. So I found myself in
the in the you know days of especially during the
pandemic and not having childcare help. There were days where

(55:18):
I didn't get to touch music at all because I
had to you know, there was work and I had
to do with my daughter and my wife so just
in that of just living life outside of music and poetry,
there was just all these things that were, you know,
forming for me thought processes. Uh, you know what I'm

(55:38):
thinking about, politics, What I'm thinking about you know, the
state of hip hop now versus when I wrote Project Image,
you know, on an album that came out seventeen years ago. Whatever.
It's like, where am I now? Where am I with? Um?
You know? How I see you know, how I see

(55:58):
the game, How I see the mate? How much you know?
How do I in some way? It's also been like
how do I get across what mister Cosby was trying
to get across? But it got fucked up? Right right?
What doctor Dyson wrote a book about? Right right right? Yes, yes, sex.

(56:23):
I was want to ask you if you and if
you have you know I haven't heard it. You know,
my my apology, But have you written a poem about
mister Cosby in your experience with it or what is
that you would explore? There's no, there's really no reason
for me. Got And when I say read about I
don't mean like about him, but about the experience about

(56:43):
whatever is it? Yeah? That's not a um, that's not
a poem um. Yet and at some point again, I'm
living life, so at some point it may become come up. Yeah,
but I don't know. And now that you plant to
see something, may you make de fite so many so

(57:04):
many things, so many things, even for what you were
talking about with Malcolm and Eddie and what you learned
and how you grew up like in that TV world,
which is just a one of a kind of experience
experience for that time, like and having that power like
you said when you realize you weren't him, and walking
in that writers for it's so many angles to take. Yeah,

(57:25):
you know, like that's just being present to it all.
And to the doctor Dyson's point as well. Wait, what
book was that like, because it's Bill Cosby, right, Yeah,
that was what the name of the book was. He
wrote a whole book about what he said about us
on that faithful day. They're usually people talk about Yeah, okay,
got so against I think this this this part of

(57:47):
it was, you know, how do I, um, how do
I not have what happened to his message? Happened to
you know, for for the message I'm trying to you know,
So there were people that actually consulted with like, um,
Professor Danny Williams over the Howard I you know that
that's the Homies. So, like I I conferred with her

(58:09):
with you know, some of the writing, uh, just to
kind of make sure okay, you know. And and and
there's a certain you know, lens through which I'm you know,
because of a lens to which I'm watching, I'm not
necessarily aware of how this could be misinterpreted. Um, you
know in another way. So you know, Dana helped me
out with that a great deal. Um. And there's another

(58:32):
piece I took to another poet just to kind of
get some feedback on. So this, all of these things
have been ruing. One of the tracks on here I
was listening to. I was listening to it, and it
actually made me think about what happened to a mirror
this year in February, Like, and I was like, but
he is he referring to that? It was? Which which
track was it? But yeah, what happened at the Oscars.

(58:52):
It made me It was talking about that and showing
their true feelings and when when black men really put
themselves out there. It just made me think of that
in that way for you though. In March of twenty twenty,
Like what adjustments have you had to me? And like
how did you deal in the last two years from

(59:13):
from the pandemic and quarantine until where you are now?
That's a great question. Like for me during that time,
like it was a you know, it was a fucked
up time, but it was a beautiful time for you know,
for my family because it was literally me, my wife,
and my daughter right right, you know. And and for
for my daughter to have mommy and Papa both at

(59:35):
home all day every day she was in heaven. M
So for our unit, you know, it made our unit
stronger in that we had the opportunity to have to
be in each other's presence like all the time, and
and and really really enjoy each other, you know, and

(59:56):
being able to have that time because my daughter was
two when COVID broke out, So to be able to
have that kind of time and that kind of family
time uninterrupted by work felt really good. You know. So
I think that that kind of informed really everything else,
if that makes sense. Did you do a lot of

(01:00:18):
writing during that time or was it? Yeah? So, so
what happened was I you know, so I've been knee
deep and I've been net deep in Ableton for forever,
like like I took in Ableton online course at Berkeley
in like twenty fourteen, right, so I'm I had able
was Ableton three point five, right, and I was eleven,

(01:00:42):
you know, But back then I didn't really understand it,
so I put it away until they came out, till
nine came out. But so twenty twenty, I was like,
I'm going to do a record, and I'm going to
do all the production of myself, not because that's what
I want to do moving forward, but since you know,
let this be my quarantine me myself and able to Eph. Yeah,

(01:01:07):
so that's where a lot of the record came from,
because you know, I got into a five song EP
and then I did a great job of self sabotaging myself,
so well, maybe I may let me add two more songs, right,
just let me flush that with seven songs. I'm gonna
do that. And then life happened and it never got done, right,

(01:01:28):
as you know, I just kind of sat oneingsto something.
But they kind of sat on it. It wasn't you know,
at the height of a priority list, especially now when
everything's streaming, it's like, well, one I can put it
out whenever, whenever you want, right, I'm not gonna make
any money off of us, so there's really no rush
into finishing. So I did all of that to self
sabotage finishing the record. And then last year when the

(01:01:51):
Grammy's announced they were doing the you know, finally doing
the spoken word poetry category, I was like that news. Yeah, yeah,
this is the first year. I thought that was always
a spoken word Yeah, but not so spoken word uh.
Traditionally was included poetry, audiobooks, comedy. Yeah, so you got

(01:02:16):
your own category. Yeah. So like two years ago, um,
say coo uh, Edwards had an album that was nominated,
but Michelle Obama right right exactly. So finally, after years
of campaigning, they finally opened up the Best Spoken Word

(01:02:38):
Poetry album. Can I take this rare ten seconds out
to pick up my my sister, Dawn Thompson. I rarely,
I mean, I rarely go there, but I will say
that I've never known a human being that is on

(01:03:02):
damn near at Tasmanian devil level of trying to bring
change to to Naris and the entire Grammy organization. And
I think even saying that might be putting on her
spot a little bit too much. Yeah, but she's doing
it the right way locally too, like for her hometown,

(01:03:24):
Like that's what's up. Yeah, But I mean like she's
really intrenches in ways that I never because the thing
is is like, yeah, I'm a part of the academy,
but I don't go to those damn meetings, you guys,
Amir is not saying his sister is the president of
local Philadelphia chapter of NARIS. Yes, I'm sorry, I forgot
that part. Yes, but you know, she also is like

(01:03:47):
there for countless and billions of hours for like things
that you don't think about, but like the level of
happiness that she felt. And it wasn't like she was
giving me a daily progress report of Okay, I'm working
on trying to get these these categories and dadda. It
wasn't like that. But I just know that one of
her biggest challenges was, all right, I now have to

(01:04:12):
be the change that I want to see implemented in
an industry, you know, because she came to the industry
just like I did as an artiste too, because you know, yeah,
exactly the sisters is doing it. And yeah, my whole
point is with my sister that sorry I got to well, no, no, no,
I'm saying I got in the door, you know, luckily

(01:04:35):
to make to make a living, I got in the door.
She had to go kind of the the scenic route
to get there, but I definitely know that she was
a part of almost you know, a long, long, long,
long long process of getting these these categories change so

(01:04:56):
that other arts, you know, so that artists can actually
get to reap the benefit. It's other work. And quick
disclaimer for her people who don't know, Don Thompson is
come from an independent artist perspective, and she's not there
for her her brother relations. She's there because she knows
the struggle big up to doing it. I have to
say that I said at the top, like everything that
you said, especially with being a self saboteur and all

(01:05:18):
those things like that, that has been me decades. Like
I'm now just dealing with this year of setting myself
of all those things, like of me noticing how I
hold back my own process and those things. So I

(01:05:40):
feel like I'm hearing the code words from you and
I'm like, oh wow, we this might be a burdens
of a feather moment. Yeah, congratulations for one being able
to acknowledge it and being courageous enough to you know,
not do things the same way. Right, It's still on
every day struggle though, No that no, yeah, yeah, I

(01:06:02):
resemble that remark Tomorrow's a new day, you know what
I mean. But you know, at least I'm least very
much aware of you know, you could either manifest something
or you you could man a fuck something. I've been
the king of man of fucking for a long time.
So wow, Okay, I'm gonna tell you the like the

(01:06:25):
real real shit. Let's go. That's what we're here for.
I want to name the album black Fist Beautiful who
Walked You Back? My wife she was like, it was like,
you know that's corny, right, It's just it's two one right.
That's exactly what she said. That's exactly what she said.

(01:06:49):
It leaves nothing to the imagination, yeah, dude. And I
was like, but how do I should it? I'm just black,
so you know I can't. So I'd always loved the uh,
I'd always learned love the title hiding and Playing View
because I was like, okay, I'm gonna na I'm named

(01:07:11):
album Hiding a plain View. I told my wife and
record and she was like, you know, you're not really hiding.
I mean, everything you're writing about is exactly what you feel,
so you're not really hiding. So she was like, in
what ways do you hide? So she put me in

(01:07:32):
that and she putting me in that space. She's like,
right about that, yes you know? And oh, yes you know.
And then that poem was actually something different too, because it, uh,
it started different and the play on words like, it's
so fucking dope, and I, you know, I was mixing
with this other poem and trying to show some kind
of vulnerability like let me start the poem, you know,

(01:07:54):
just spitting like like you know, technical shit, so you
know that I'm a word smith and and and I
can do things with words, and then let me hit
you with the vulnerable. And to me, I thought it
was dope. And my wife was like, yeah, sounds like
two different poems. I'm like, all right, cool, you're not
really a poet, like you don't really so she's you're

(01:08:17):
sounding board, Yeah yeah, yes, but I called another poet
friend of mine up. It's like, yo, you know what
I mean, I feel like two different poems. Okay. I
used the term kill your kids because when you know,
when you create something, you know, like right now, there's

(01:08:42):
over six hundred roots ideas and it's like, dude, just
pick fourteen and let's have the record already. So you
know you don't want to let the other five hundred
and eighty four songs go, but you know they're going
to have to go down the drain eventually, at least
for this project. But how open are you to take

(01:09:06):
that advice? Well, okay, I know that you said that
you know your wife's not you're not a poet, your
dada da da. I tend to keep I keep, I
keep an expert, and I keep what I call the
And I'm being very nice when I say this, the
common person factor behind their backs. I'm like the idio factor.

(01:09:28):
So but I think that it's it's good to have
both opinions of people that have no emotional connection to
you whatsoever, and your work to give an opinion and
you and usually with great art, you'll find out that
you know, like as in the case of you, Malcolm,
your wife is saying one thing, but then you hit
your poet homie, He's saying the same thing as well.

(01:09:48):
So it's like there's a universal truth that's there, you
know what I mean? So did the other three people. Truth,
So get back at my wife, like you got it,
I won't. I won't sleep on you next time. So
then when I when I totally rewrote the poem, right
and I was like, ah, this is ah, this is

(01:10:09):
dope right here, like this is it. And I played
it for her. She was like, let me read it.
I needed to see it. And then there were there
were there were a couple of tweaks that she made
that made me go, thank you, Malcolm for not sleeping
on your wife yet again. Right right, So she just
gave me some some tweaks and some finishing touches. That

(01:10:31):
really makes it, you know, really what it is. So
so I so I stay open, but at the same time,
I gotta tell you the story. And you know it's
it's fucked up, but but let's go. It says a
lot about a lot of people and then also says
a lot about how I feel about myself and and

(01:10:53):
and who I am and owning myself. Right. So wrote
the song with Waymon Tisdale. Okay, right, we were doing
a jam session and you know we recorded it whatever,
and you know, we had like a little demo was
in my hard drive. You know, Wayman passed and you know,
I pulled that out. Was like, you should do something,
should do something of that. So I I arranged this

(01:11:15):
whole song based on this demo that he and I did.
You know, I played the song live like for years
a last record. I want to put the song on
the record. Um. I had bartered services with Chris Dave
one another project, so M I called in a favor
from him. It was like, yo, you know, like the

(01:11:35):
drum program is cool, but like, I really need some
live drums behind us. It was like cool, you know.
So he comes and he kills it. Then a few
weeks later, I get a call because the engineer who
who's helped me produce that record was also producing M
Chris's record. Right, So I get a call and d
was like, yo, I got a surprise for you. Pino

(01:11:57):
came through and laid based on your joint. Right. I'm like, whoa,
that's dope. But wait a minute, I'm playing bass on
that record, okay, And that's the record that I wrote
with Waymon I speak, here's performing this song live right,
like that's my ship and I'm gonna listen to it Pino.

(01:12:19):
You know, Pino did Peno, right, So there's no that
question about this ship was butter. It was a whole
different vibe from what I had spent years with. And
I'm like, so I went to seven different people. I said, listen,
these are heres are two, um, two approaches to the base.

(01:12:41):
I'm trying to I'm not sure which approach I'm gonna
use for the song, which do you like? Didn't tell
her who was playing? No, no, didn't give him any backstory, right, Um.
Five of the people they're like, yo, it's really dope.
But I really liked this one and that's mine, right, Okay. Uh.
The two other people knew the story, and they were

(01:13:04):
trying to convince me that would be really dope because
to say, I've got Pino and Chris Dave on my record,
Big Girl and the Algorithms and the whole nine. So
so at the last minute I decided it was like,
you know what, I'm gonna kick myself in the ass
for the rest of my life every time I played
this song and Pinos on it, and I'm not right,

(01:13:25):
And again not that I'm better than Pino, Like that's
not like, don't let anybody attempt to miss interpret that.
But so I ended up. I called I called the producers,
and there was like, yo, I thought about it. I'm
gonna use I'm gonna use my bass. He says, ah,
well you know what. You know, I didn't want to
tell you this. You know, but Chris said if you
played based on it, to take his drums off, and

(01:13:48):
that producer was also supposed to mix my whole record.
It said, So I gotta take Chris's drums off, I
gotta take my keys off, give you your file back,
and you gotta find somebody else to produce the record. Wow,
that's real shit. That that's real fucked up. But you

(01:14:11):
go listen to it. The songs called song is called
high on Love right, and you know, you may think
it's you may think it's whacked, but it's not whack.
And if you said it was whacking, but like cool,
that's sure. You know again, I'm not Peno right, it's
not you know, I'm not saying it's you know right,
I do me right right, So that's my thing. Like

(01:14:32):
I had to really go, wow, I'm getting ready to
take Pino Paladino off my record for my ship. Yeah.
But I feel that's strong about it. I stand up
on it. Sometimes I will, and I can attest to
this as well. Sometimes only the best won't, do, you know.
I think I think oftentimes, especially you know, there's there's

(01:14:58):
a BC in the A D For me. I think
the moment in which I learned this lesson this year
where someone told me that, Okay, you get into something
brand new and you're you're in the space of being
a creative, and then once you're after that and you

(01:15:21):
experienced some sort of success, then you're in a space
of not being a creative, but you're in a space
of where you're now succeeding. Like in other words, you're
thinking about how to maximize or capitalize on a moment
in versus how to make the thing. Yeah, and it's
it's sort of And the thing that I think that's

(01:15:43):
being lost here, at least on their side of the fence,
is that you know, this is still a creative expression
for you, This is still therapeutic for you. This is
still like it's your project. You know, it would be
like me, like I think Chris Davis Godd would I
want him to drum in proxy of me on the

(01:16:05):
next Roots record. That might be a little weird, you
know what I mean, because I'm not making the Rooch
record as in like to be successful. But I'm yeah,
it's like, so you're you're well within your right. Even
if the Lord Jesus Christ came down on Earth and
played based on your joint, like, you still gotta I

(01:16:28):
understand your your your first joint came out in two
thousand and two, I believe three. Yeah it was. It
was like right after the millennium started? So are you able?
And I'll ask you to find like I feel like

(01:16:48):
I'm interviewing two artists here. Is it easy to go
back to listen to the first thing you ever created
and you're fine with it or you're like super critical
of it, you know, compared to it's it's twenty years
into the game now for you mistakes Like oh god, man,
all I hear is mistakes. Um, but but you know,

(01:17:10):
but so the listening for you is like organics. Yeah,
I'm like, oh my god, Yeah, I mean I can
listen to it, you know what I mean. I haven't.
I haven't listened to it and sometimes but I've you know,
been listened to it for the for the film. But
like I can listen to that stuff. But again, I
just hear it. I'm just like, God, I sound so young,
that sounds whatever, you know what I mean, And it's

(01:17:31):
just you know, it's cringe, you know what I mean. Wow,
and you made a fortified classic. Thank you. But I mean,
but I just look at it. You over the time,
just you know, the years I've been doing this, I
just learned to look at albums as or whatever it is,
albums paused, whatever you make. I just look at it
as a snapshot of where you were at that time,

(01:17:52):
you know. I mean, you have to look at it
like a photograph, and you can't look at it like,
oh man, I'm so much better now, you know. But
it's like, yeah, and but this is where I was
back then, and and I better be better now exactly. Yeah,
Because if I was looking at listening to the old
shit like damn, this dude was bet like and I
got a problem that, you know what I mean, because

(01:18:13):
I ain't got better, you know what I'm saying. If
I feel like I got to chase my old shit. Um,
so yeah, that's that's kind of been my thing. But
I'm very rarely to listen to older stuff. It's it's
kind of cringe cringe worthy. How about for you, Michael, Yeah,
I can listen to old stuff and appreciate where I
was at the time, you know. And also you know

(01:18:33):
I listened to that stuff and you know, again I appreciate.
It makes me really appreciate, you know, Malcolm then, especially
coming from the journey of how this whole thing started anyway.
You know what I'm saying, the fact that I can.
I've always wanted to. I always want to make timeless music, right, Um.
I want the content to be timeless because because I

(01:18:56):
still listened to Gil and like, you know, damn everything
Gil was talking about, we're still you know why. You know,
I want someone to you know, to go back, and
it's happening now because when I send people to like
you know, the Spotify or or the hiding and view
album page, you know, the catalog comes up, so people

(01:19:18):
don't know that this is like my fourth record. They
go back and they listen. But it's all still relevant, right,
It's all still it's all still listenable. You know. I
still stand behind um. You know, you know, I may
like some you know, sometimes better than others. I'll still
stand behind UM. Just like my acting work, I'll stand

(01:19:41):
behind anything in my body of work and my music.
I do the same, except I don't use nigga and
my music anymore. But like you know, my first records
I did, right, I replace it with common all right
and actually, and if you listen to on the album,

(01:20:02):
that's a joint called so I Run Prelude and so
on the record I have. I have doctor Daniel Black
on the record, who oh work, Okay go. He's assistant
assistant professor of African American Studies at Clark So I
interviewed him sometime last year because there's a bed of

(01:20:23):
music in this this piece called a Sante Sana that
I wanted to have him just talk. So he ended
up dropping so much knowledge that I put him all
throughout the album. I will dare to say that my
album Hiding in Playing View is one of them, is
one of the most important albums to come out in

(01:20:45):
twenty twenty two. And I know I'm putting a lot
on it, but I'm also saying that because of the
gems that doctor Black is dropping all over this record
is it's it's it's important, it's almost vital that we
need to hear these messages, Like I tell people, my

(01:21:07):
record is for us. It's for black boys, it's for
black men, it's for black people. It's for non black
people who have the foresight enough to see our self
healing as an invitation for them to explore their own
necessary healing. Okay, this is how we do a tribunal.
I was wondering how you were to tribunal and I

(01:21:28):
think you finally got him out, because how do you
keep them out? But maybe still once that get again,
so thank you. I'm gonna steal those words because this
album Black and s and PS, he still named the
song back. You know, it's because there was this I

(01:21:50):
was working a song, couldn't figure out the title because
initially it was just you know, C minors seven and
F mitor seven, So like I had to give it
a real title. And once I you know, I got
to write in the hes, won't you name Matt Black
is beautiful? That was like I thought you didn't like it.
She was like, it's not the album title, right, that

(01:22:10):
song because like all day us so yes, yes, but
so so I know I put a lot on on
that album, but that's how I strongly feel about it.
And again I strongly feel about that. Um. I feel
a big part of that statement is because of doctor
Daniel Black and saying all that. Say, there's a prelude

(01:22:32):
is called so I run prelude and he does a
bit about Nigga. M that's the young guy. Yeah, it's
like track eight. But um, and even though I was
adopting comrade before this conversation, he just has a really
an interesting way that we should at least to consider.

(01:22:57):
I'm open to hearing what I say to struggle like
anything it is, but then it's like anything to keep
them from saying it. So I don't know what we
gotta do right, it's getting I know, I know that
for me on the East coast of Ease, like there's
and Philly, we had something that's similar to like the
New Eurecan Society and the you know, like there's Tripeter Mason,

(01:23:21):
Jill Scott, Ursula Rucker in Philly, New York. There's the
New Eurekan Cafe where poets came. What was that environment
in la like? Where would one like if if Robin
Harris is working out at the Comedy Act Theater right,
what was the New Eurecan or the like? Where did

(01:23:44):
black poets hang in LA during that period in which
you're looking for your tribe, Like, yeah, there were two
places of fin street Dicks in the murd Park, Okay,
and that's where you're gonna find the open mics, the poets,
jazz heads, the old jazz heads, the young jack's heads,
everyone who everyone who was at at at Chris Shaw High,

(01:24:07):
every musician you know, spend time shedding at Fifth three Dicks.
And then over in West LA there is a place
called Lucy Florence and every Tuesday night a poet by
name of a deep red would do a what was
called red Ce poetry. But anybody who was coming coming

(01:24:28):
coming up on the scene in La would work out
at right now, right now. He goes by spoken yoga
on Instagram, but it's deep read spoken you yoga. But
I always had to get from props because he provided
he provided a really dope space and environment for you know,
poets coming up. And there's also a fly poet, the
fly poet in n LA, John Hinsley. He would do

(01:24:50):
a monthly thing, but he would he would only he
would vet the poets. It would be a monthly thing,
but they were all features. So he was really good about,
you know, getting budgets to be able to pay uh,
you know, poets to come in and uh, you know,
put some money in their pockets. But you would go
to fly poet knowing that you it was not an
open mic. You were always going to get a hot

(01:25:13):
legit poet on that stage. Damn three spots. When did
you move to Atlanta in twenty eighteen? Okay, but nobody,
I have to go back because it would it would
be it would be a huge disc if I didn't
shout out the Poetry Lounge. That was also another spot
where uh and and and outside of La the Poetry

(01:25:37):
Lounge is probably the more popular, the more well known spot. Um.
But for those of us who were coming up on
the scene in LA, we were definitely a red Sea
poetry um. You know a lot of people did working
on at at the Poetry Lounge and John Hungry spot.
I just don't want to coming out kind of part

(01:25:58):
of my life that I missed, like in the early
Square Roots stage. He's like Tuesday nights at University of
Penn you know, exactly right, exactly, A lot of a
lot of brothers who who who who? Who? Repeat words
like this that that and this and that and the
other and that, Like I miss, I really miss. I

(01:26:24):
just hear Little Brother songs. I'm sorry, I just hear
yo yo man. I see that's that's what really true me.
See when I heard that first Fonte, I was like,
first of all, Fonte, fuck you the second one, Fonte,
Damn this moment if he's actually right, Like yeah, yeah,

(01:26:50):
poetry was always for me, you know, And that's why
I can appreciate what you because you know you're saying,
you know, I'm a poet because for me coming up
so much of poets they were failed and sees, you
know what I mean, like they weren't really they were
you know guys, it's like they weren't good enough to
be rappers. So they would kind of be in like

(01:27:11):
this middle ground, this poetry thing. Now we're just critics. Yeah,
but like but all these poems would be about like
they're just being about fucking and ship, you know what
I mean, You know what I mean, It would just
be like dude, right yeah, So so not so I
can appreciate the way that you can really take it poetry.

(01:27:32):
And even for me, so you say, North Carolina had
a community, we did we had, we did, we had. Yeah.
So the song that he's referring to, um if you're
not uh, just so we know, I called the yo
Yo was the verse I did. It was on the
song with a Little Brother song. It was it was
a stars board like all right, he frant is really

(01:27:52):
underselling it. Franti's underselling it. I say this, and I
know I'm world famous for my my uh my, my
overexaggerated hyper bowlt. But I will say that Fante's verse
on yo Yo was like for me. For me, it

(01:28:14):
was almost it was a star is Born bust rhyme
scenario verse for a tribe called quest because I just
never I never heard someone just come over and look
at my jinger and just be like Snoop Dogg, like

(01:28:35):
like somebody you thought you was playing with, because I
thought we was, and I was like, wait a minute,
you were on our side of the it was. I
didn't So when I wrote that verse, it wasn't for y'all.
I mean, like I looked at first of all, I
never even looked at y'all as like, oh yeah, like y'all,
we weren't in it. I don't. I didn't take look

(01:28:57):
at y'all in that way. I didn't look at y'all
as poets, you know what I'm say mc jaw musicians.
So nah, that was specifically for poetry. Like I did it.
I was hosting this poetry night. I got this gig
and it was in Durham and uh I was my
friend Tracy Ibora, Matt Sherman. They hit this wherever they are.

(01:29:19):
I love Tracy back to this day, love him, love
him to this day. Um, Tracy is actually the girl
on the listening that's uh w J l R Slow Jams,
that's Tracy say so. So she had this thing, she
was having this poetry night. She was like, Yo, we
want you to come host it. And I was like,
all right, cool, how much I'm paying? And it was
like a hundred dollars and like nigga, one hundred dollars

(01:29:41):
and like two thousand, what shits to fill up my day?
My little monster nigga I was eating. I'm like, hell yeah,
let's go. So I go and I do the joint
and I'm hosting and I'm just being me, you know
what I mean. I'm just doing me. I'm talking to
my shit, you know, just whatever whatever. And the poets
are coming up there and they're really bad like this,

(01:30:01):
like they really they kind of sucked m and so
I'm just talking to my ship whatever. So afterwards, the
next day we talked. She calls me after the gig
and I'll get paid everything, and I'm like, yeah, so
where's the next one? Like I'm ready. I'm like, I'm
thinking it's gonna be a monthly. I got like a
little monthly, my little residency whatever, my little hundred dollars. Nigga. Shit,
I'm out here when the nutjoin. She was like, yeah,

(01:30:25):
so we kind of got some compete from the patrons,
you know what I mean, you know, because I'm like, what, well,
you know, what was you saying the N word? I said, Well, Tracy,
I don't say the N word. I say nigga. Let's
clear that shit up real fast, you know what I mean.

(01:30:45):
Like I'm just being me, you know what I mean.
And but so yeah, so I think, like, baby, like
a week or two later, I wrote that verse. And
it wasn't at I can't believe in finding this story
out now. It wasn't about poet or any you know whatever.
It was just about the pretentiousness of that scene. About

(01:31:05):
people with the crap. It was just the pretentiousness of
the scene. It was just like, you know, y'all up
here like claiming to be a higher level of conscious
or whatever, but the rappers are rapping about fucking girls
and y'all just up here scene talking about girls, Like,
get the funk out of here right now. I mean,
so that was where that verse came from. It came

(01:31:26):
from every real place, but well that was the Star's
war moment. That's after you do know, it's funny, you
got a lot fontect. Can we at least do rapid
fire about absolutely? Absolutely? Yes, yes, all right, okay, so

(01:31:50):
a you wrapped my mind? God damn it, mother was
my motherfucker brother? Come on? Come on always That is
one of my favorite roles to you. It's like, yeah,
ac role your sons and like talk about those roles
where you say played I don't want to say played
against type, you know what I mean, but something that
you know people wouldn't think, Oh, THEO is in the

(01:32:11):
fucking Motorcycle Gang, you know what I mean? You know,
so talk about like the OJ, the ac Cock collins man,
how do you prepare for that? Yeah, I mean that's
a whole um, you know, my whole journey. You know,
post Cosby has always been trying to you know, share
some of that THEO titcom energy, and you know, especially
Cosby was really my first comedy role. I was doing

(01:32:31):
dramatic work before Cosby. I was always known for comedy
and because I'd done because sitcom is so you know
ingrained in me, I've done a lot of work to
you know, move myself away from that. So I'm constantly
looking for roles to kind of go against type. Um
and AC really not to think about it sparked off

(01:32:56):
a bunch of things that kind of helped move me
to this side. Uh. You know, the thing I loved
about AC was one that there wasn't a whole lot
of research to be done on him because it just
wasn't a lot you know. Um. But you know what
I recognize is you know, um, you know, he and
OJ they used to be they were both the men, right,

(01:33:18):
But then you spend your life like you're the man
sitting next to the man, you know, and you live
such a lifestyle now that uh, your you know, your relationship,
your livelihood depends upon your relationship with him, you know,
And I've never I've never really been I've never been

(01:33:41):
the man now that I would ever call myself the
man amongst my friends, but I've never been the man
sitting next to the man, right So but I know
a lot of those, dude, So it was it was
fun to be able to, you know, to play that
side of a relationship that I saw all my life.
Is he still with us? Yeah as far as I know. Yeah, yeah.

(01:34:02):
Did you have any talks with him prior to the
role where there any none of that? No stalk him?
Now you killed that role? Man? And did that role
lead to working with Ryan Murphy again? And what is
it like We're going from that to American Horror? So
I started American Horror Story. I did that first, Okay,

(01:34:23):
you did it? Okay, so it was okay um. And
then so what was funny for uh? For people? For
us OJA? I actually auditioned for Chris Darton. Wow. Ok
And that was literally that was one of the best
auditions in my life, right, like like the cash director

(01:34:44):
hit my agent up email like an hour after I left,
and I gave me PROMP. So I was like, yeah,
it was like this is this is that one? Like
I'm about to blow? Was that off? This motherfucker? Was
that Sterling? Was that? I never he was? He was done?
Months went by and I heard nothing right, and then

(01:35:06):
I was like okay um, and then out of the blue,
Ryan's office called me and offered me the ac role
and so based on you know, the audition for for Chris.
So then when I saw Sterling, I was like, what
right of course, right right? What are we talking about between?

(01:35:27):
That made him too? That made him too? Like that
really he just I mean he put his everything, Yeah,
everything from his toe n to his achilles heel he
put in that, you know. So yeah, yeah, I get it.
I gotta ask Speaking of that, Lenny have revealed to

(01:35:50):
me that they first came to him? Did he reveal
that on our episode? Uh? That before Cuba Gooding? Like,
I know, this is real hard to imagine, but like
Lenny and OJ are dopel gangers. You gotta you gotta

(01:36:11):
google it together. There's there's a period of OJ's life
talking about y'all. Just so, yeah, what other Lenny not
Lenny White? I never heard the comparison or Lenny White
the drummer anyway, No, no, no, When I was watching
um Ezra's OJ documentary on episode two. You know it's

(01:36:31):
a four part documentary. Episode two, I was like, damn,
I never knew that OJ looked like Lenny Kravitz And
I hit him up like yo, like did you know
you guys were twins? And he's like yo, they offered
me the role and he didn't take it, like I
gotta think about his butler role. That would be the
look he didn't want. Yeah, Like, but did you did

(01:36:52):
you realize at all that that Lenny at one point
was being courted heavily to play OJ's walk before. No,
I didn't know that it's my first something. I'm not
I mean that that doesn't that doesn't surprise me. Yeah,
so yeah, never, I didn't hear that. It's so beautiful
the way it worked out though, because people a lot

(01:37:13):
love when they saw you on the screen, like it
was a it was a beautiful like surprise. Like the
thing that I admire about the roles that you chose,
like you happen to always show up on sho shows
that I watch a lot, like you know, just on
the road, I watch everything, so like when you were
in community, Detroitter's is one of my all time favorite shows,

(01:37:39):
you know, the low because I know the people to
do the production, even the girlfriend's guy that divorce join. Like,
I there's so much all all of the shows that
you've done. Is acting still like a journey that you
enjoy or or is it like it's cool but you know,

(01:38:02):
like music's like like what's your what's nine balance? Right?
The acting? I mean one, it's my bread and butter um, right,
but I'm also you know, I'm hitting a new stride
um as an actor. So my craft is you know,
I have a better handle on my craft. It's just
even these five seasons I've been doing on The Resident,

(01:38:27):
The Resident has really been a great playground, you know,
to to to work on certain tools I need as
I continue on this journey of mastery of my craft.
So I'm always looking to to get better. I have
this this really dope show coming out on Fox called Accused.

(01:38:50):
It's a courtroom anthology series, so like Twilight Zone or
Black Mirror, every episode is a standalone. Yeah, but so
I have an episode of that, and these five seasons
on The Resident have greatly even informed that role because
that roles again a very different role. It was very

(01:39:12):
demanding emotionally. So this having that experience, it was like wow,
like like I am I say, with the resident I
have finally I'm finally beginning the handle on my craft
that I've been chasing since Cosby M So there's all
of that and it's like, oh wow, there's all of

(01:39:33):
that that's informed where I am. Now Fuck what's next?
Like you know, like I'm excited about that, and then
instead of me stressing about you know what the next
job is gonna be, I have the music. Yeah, I
would say, man, I would say, bro, like I just
from as someone that you know, grew up like watch

(01:39:54):
you on Cosby and who I knew you were older
than me, but you know, but just you know, we're
in the same range, you know what I'm saying. But
like I always admired, I thought you really grew into
yourself really well you know what I mean, um in
terms of you know what I mean in terms of
just like your transition and going from because I mean

(01:40:16):
we you know, I mean child actors, ain't no doubt. Comrade, listen,
I say that major thank you, thank you. I think, yeah,
comrades be fucked up out here, cause yeah, really, you
know what I mean, but now you know, so you know,
most child actors, that's a sub transition to make. But

(01:40:37):
I've always admired just the way you kind of transitioned,
and you've always seemed to pick roles that were you
and it seemed like it was really yeah, just like
a lot of class and you just brought I think,
you know, when you talk about your process and how
you're growing, you know, older, and kind of you feel
like there's another level of mastery that there. You know,

(01:40:58):
I see that. Man, it really shot through and everything
you do, you know what I mean, And I really
appreciate it for really I gotta ask fan out questions though.
All right, let's go I got some soul, go ahead, Okay,
So a year before the pandemic, all right, so the
roots lived, you know, we moved to London, England, like

(01:41:18):
in ninety three when we got our record deal, moved
over there and kind of kept an apartment there so
that we could tour all of Europe extensively without a
being like really heavy on our pockets, you know, paying
for flights back and forth to the States, Like we're
just going to live in Europe, and so like London
is the second home for us. So we did this

(01:41:38):
gig in London and it's like our biggest crowd yet.
So it's like fifteen thousand people. And this is not
like a festival, this is just like a regular root
show outdoors. And I'm staring at this woman and I'm like,
I know you from so where I don't know where

(01:42:01):
I know you? And she just stood out like she
stood in the middle. And then I did a DJ
gig and that same woman was like was was was
was there? And I was like, where do I know
you from? At the end of the night, I was

(01:42:22):
excuse me, I do we know each other? And she says, yeah,
my name is Denise Pearson. I was like, fucking five
started Denise Pearson, you started laughing. I was like wait,
you know, I was like wait always hung with Malcolm
Jamorrow Warner like for me, for me, like and then

(01:42:49):
taking taken to the very top of this episode when
I told you like vicariously, who am I living with? Like?
Who am I living through? What? You gotta give us?
Give me a second like for me in watching and
watching you as a kid Bycarius Lee living like I

(01:43:11):
would just like, wow, man, the only two people like
I knew Eddie Murphy mentioned them once and you were
always hanging with five Star? Do you not know five Star? Uh? No? Wow? Okay,
all right, this this is all I said. You remember
the Jimmy Jam episode where um, you know he spoke

(01:43:34):
of h who's a are my Philly comrad? Oh? Nick
Martinelly When we talked about people that bite jam and Lewis,
Nick Martinelli was basically, I don't want to insult Nick Martinelli.
I'm saying this thing amount of Jimmy Jam. If you
can't get jamm and Lewis, you can get Nick Martinelly

(01:43:56):
and almost get the same results. So like Lusen's five Star,
like he five Star from the group five Star. Yeah, yeah,
So I'll just say that production wise, like Nick Martinelli
had took jam and Lewis's SOS band sound and gave

(01:44:18):
it to Lusen's, gave it to Phyllis Himan, I only
want to be your girl. That's one and five star,
which is basically in my mind, if if pretty controlled.
Janet Jackson had a group like her brothers. It was
this group. Yeah yeah, they were, but they were biggest ship.

(01:44:38):
They were they were they were definitely the Jacksons of
Europe and at the time and at the time when
the Jackson's resorted kind of running on empty between eighty
four and on, like there was no there was nobody
to really scratch that itch of watching five people dance

(01:45:00):
at the same time and do those same moves at
the jet. You know, It's like after the Victory Tour,
the Jacksons were pretty much over in eighty four, so
five Star kind of took their place. There was New Edition,
but five Star was really that anyway, Like you know,
they were always hanging with Malcolm Joe. I was like, wow, man,
Like he's so lucky to know the man. Like, but

(01:45:23):
I just want to ask you in general, you're experiencing
life and coming up age during a period in which
might seem normal to you then, but now it's like
everything you experienced was a classic moment, Like you saw
Prime New Edition. I mean, like you were hanging with Houdini,

(01:45:45):
like you're in the Funky Beat video, right, yeah, right,
Like you're you're hanging with like I mean, Run DMC
raising how ra Run DMC was the musical guests on
your episode of SNL. A matter of fact, No, I'm
just saying, like likely even did his little short film

(01:46:07):
join on Malcolm's episode, Like, I'm almost certain like this
is the one moment where I wish all five of
us were together because I know you probably were also
a Latin quarter regular as that. Well yeah, when I
was too young to even be up in there, right,
But I'm just saying like, just in general, I feel

(01:46:32):
like I'm right, No, I don't want to sound like
um old boy interviewing Paul McCartney on Saturday at Life,
like that was cool, but like you were the man
when like the prince. I wish I knew was I
became his friend like after the fact, you know, But

(01:46:55):
what was it like during that period to be in that,
to be in the eye of the storm, because I mean,
for all, the thing that we can't take away from
that show is the domino effect of ideas and seeds planet.

(01:47:16):
I mean, I started with the hip hop thing, but
I'm certainly a lot of us were looking at you know,
black colleges different, we were looking at education different. We
were looking first time here at night times the right time,
Rachel like that, Oh yeah, right, so many firsts. So
like for you in general, what was your experience like

(01:47:39):
just in the eye of the storm between eighty four
and ninety two. You couldn't tell me shit, Oh no, No,
it wasn't an asshole, was It wasn't that, not at all.
When it was when I first started working pre cosmy right,
I was doing like Matt Houston fame, I was doing, Yeah,

(01:48:02):
I was doing two plays at the same time, like
I'm in seventh grade and like I'm feeling. I was like,
I'm at school and people recognizing from TV. So I'm like, yo,
I'm that comrade. Right, it was like, yo, I'm the ship. Like.
So I was in that space and then eighth grade
came around and I could not book an audition to

(01:48:22):
save my life. I was going on like four or
five callbacks not booking anything, and it was hurting my soul.
But the message I got was like, Wow, this is
all cool, but this can go away just like that.
Have no control over yea. And as soon as I
got that epiphany, a book cosm. So so that's the

(01:48:42):
first filter through which I have. You know, I handled
my whole journey. So I wasn't whatso. So the beautiful
thing was I wasn't an ass but I was very
present to this life that I'm living, and being in
New York had a a great deal to do with
that because I wasn't in Hollywood, and my best friends

(01:49:05):
weren't on the same lot two stages down or in
their show. We were in New York. But when were
first in Brooklyn, Uh, the NBC studios didn't have a commissary,
So at lunch we had to go out into the
neighborhood and pick up our lunch whatever we decided. We
we're gonna eat, right, And we were on the number
one television show in the world. There wasn't commissary there, not,

(01:49:28):
not not at this particular because we were like an
avenue M and E's fourteen Street, Like this is like
deep in Brooklyn? Can I that side note? Yeah, the
last season of Cosby, you know, it was on the
catering staff there, right, what the head cook Bracy Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah. That's how she started out as a one

(01:49:49):
of the head chefs at the coy Man, which then
led her to life. Yeah. No, I remember Grace. Yeah, yeah,
she's that cool. But yeah, in terms of the because
y'all were very you know, y'all were children, were did they?
Because you talked about how Cosby in the writer's room,

(01:50:10):
how he would talk about, you know, you know, we're
not gonna do that. We're not gonna do that. Did
he or Felicia or just any of the adults on
the show that they kind of give y'all game as
young actors as well. Was the educational in that way?
It was for me, it was just watching Okay rights
to me, like understanding, you know, we're on this number
one television show in the world, but every weekend mister

(01:50:35):
Cosby is in Atlanta, Tahoe, or Vegas doing stand up Friday, Saturday,
Sunday and then be the work the first person back
at work on Monday. Right. So I'm seeing, like, I'm
seeing that kind of grind, you know, and I'm seeing,
you know, the work that he's putting into the show.
I'm seeing the fights that he's having, so all. So

(01:50:56):
much of that was was just by watching watching him. Um,
I've probably I'm sure I've learned more from him than
more from him from watching him than him sitting me
down at right. But I listened, and he's one of
those people who is willing to share all of his
knowledge with anyone who's willing to listen. So I also,
you know, I listened a lot. I listened to you know,

(01:51:18):
I was, I mean I was. It was a great apprenticeship,
uh in terms of running a show, Uh, in terms
of handling the responsibility of living in the public eye.
You guess directed the special ED episode? Correct? I directed

(01:51:40):
like like six episodes, but not the one ED was all?
Which ones? Did you do? Well? Give us a couple.
I know them all a heart, but no, no, no,
I don't know that. The thing often see the wretched
got drunk, got drunk, and they went to the They

(01:52:02):
went to see some some some group ye in Philly,
and Clifford Claire had to drive the Philly to go
get them, right, and they had to play a drinking
make fun Yeah no, no, not that one. They were
they were, they were in Philly. They got these tickets
they drove up to you know, lettybody know, and then
I think a scalper scammed them and took the ticket right,

(01:52:24):
and then they the car broke down. They like to
Clifford Claire about where they were going, so Clifford had
drive to pill to get them and bring them back.
And so when you're doing directing, like I noticed that
some of those episodes you weren't in at all, Like
was that by designed, Like Okay, my character won't be
in this particular episode like I will. I think in

(01:52:46):
the in the episodes that I directed, they definitely wrote
me lighter. Just sometimes there were just times we weren't
in them for you know, for whatever reason. At the
point when THEO went to college, did they start asking
you for your opinions on things like or did they
ever before that or at any point did you have
any on the writing. It was moments when I saw
you come home and like they were listening. You were

(01:53:07):
listening in a daylight soul and I was like, in
my you know, in my mind, I'm like, malcome did that?
Because right? But yeah, stuff like that like the so
the very last episode, I submitted the demo, Me and
Spaceman Patterson submitted the demo for the theme song. They
ended up not using our demo, but they used the
drum track of that program, like they used my drum patterns, right,

(01:53:30):
they changed the sounds, but they used my drumsh just
like Okay, got it? Um. So, I mean there was
there was definitely wait for the last season. Yeah, so
you helped do the music of when they were dancing
in front of the brick wall the hell house. Yeah yeah, yeah,
but wait, I got I have so many questions to
ask you now, oh shit, the introsh not even the

(01:53:53):
intro okay, but I always wanted to know. Okay, there
was one. There was one particular episode in which, for
the life of me, I will never understand how this happened.
You know, normally they will make if someone's listening to
outside music, you know, they'll have whatever, I know, like

(01:54:15):
stut Gartner or somebody would make up a song, a
fictional song or whatever for you guys to listen to.
But this one particular episode, I couldn't believe that. Not
only uh was like Blackie who like if if you
remember the the episode, this is when I first got
a VCR. So you remember, like when you first get

(01:54:36):
your VCR and you just record any and everything or
am I way too older than you? I'm way older
than you two. So I'm just saying that when you
get a VCR, you record everything and you watch it
over again. So this one particular episode they use the
actual Blackie Huru guess who's coming to dinner? Which is

(01:54:56):
uh right, right, right where, which you know the whole
I say, amon thing, But for me, I always wanted
to know. So there's a scene where Vanessa and Robert
are listening to Cosmic Slot by Funkadelic, and I was like, Yo,
these two are twelve years old, what do they know

(01:55:19):
about listening to a song from nineteen seventy three about
a mother that has to turn tricks in the alleyway
to feed her like it was such. I was watching
it with the with the with a musician friend of
my dad's, and he was like, wait a minute, are
they really playing Cosmic Slot by Funkadelic right now? On

(01:55:39):
the Cosby that was like one of the most revolutionary moments.
But I always wanted to know, like I know that
wasn't by accident or like I know that was on purpose?
Who would is that? The writers? Is that that was
either mister Cosby or Stut Gardner Probably probably mister Cosby. Wow.

(01:56:00):
So at the time I know that scene, I was
probably too young to know Cosmic Slot. So right, but
now that you're saying that because I know the song,
like that's such a genius, yes, such a genius move,
really subversive yea. Yeah, So that was that was. I
mean that that really turned me on. Before that moment,

(01:56:23):
those Funkadelic records were just scary album covers in my
dad's collection, and I was like whatever, and then suddenly like,
oh wait, this was one of the Cosby show. Like
literally every it's a lot of records that we found
like that. Yeah, yeah, like Candy and all that stuff.
So again, I go back to my first question, what

(01:56:44):
was for you like one of the coolest moments of
the advantage of being your career because I you know,
I also know that back then there was sort of
this thing where it's like you versus year. I say, O, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:57:07):
you transition very well. Yeah, Yo, for real, We're real, dog,
for real, We're real. Thank you Malcolm. Yeah, And it's
I just felt like you really never got your props
for what you represented. Yea one that show. Yeah, but

(01:57:29):
just in general, like, what was like one of the
coolest moments of experience? Yeah, like meeting someone otherworldly or
just like, wow, I get to see this concert because
you know, like that could be a two hour conversation
and self. But I'm gonna tell you one that stands

(01:57:50):
out because since you brought it up, so we're at
We're at SNL, right, uh huh, I'm rehearsing my opening
monologue and was about I just learned how to do
the whop right because I was I was at I
was at a at LQ, I was whopping and man,
Darren him me finally told me how to how to walk. Right.

(01:58:10):
So old monologue is about me trying to learn this
dance and then uh, Dana Carvey comes in and he's
really trying to show me how to do the dance.
That's a real goofy uh. It's a real open monologue.
So we're rehearsing and um, run uh you know, running
Darrel coming and they're they're early, so they're sitting down. Uh,

(01:58:30):
they're watching us, you know, do the monologue, and you know,
the band starts playing and I start, you know, doing
the wop and finished the piece. Yo, did you hear that?
They playing my melody? Run looked at me. It was like, yo,

(01:58:51):
you did that? I was like yeah, he was like
he gave me the look. Right run. DMC is impressed
because I'm on SNL doing the whop having the band
playing Eric B and Kids by Melo. Right, run like
this right wait and I'm like fifteen, like, so to

(01:59:15):
get that luck from Run, like wow, yeah, wow, this
is a love But that's definitely you know for a
fifteen year old kid, you know, loving and run DMC
to get that kind of recognition, I think, like, you know,
it's spending night at an aunt's house or whatever, and

(01:59:35):
you know, and I got to see that episode, man,
that that that was everything. Yo, dog, I can I
can nerd out forever. Normally I'm about to look at
the clock, right Jesus Christ, this is a two and
a half hour episode. Sorry, but I mean you're you
know you legend. No, this is this is a living

(01:59:57):
legend friend and I'm talking to legend. So it's whole.
It's a thing. I do it all the time. It's
really cool. I really thank you for talking to us
and and and you know, I'm one of your biggest fans.
Donk and ways and ways and ways. I can't explain that.
I just I thank you. I really don't have any

(02:00:19):
other words, but you know, thank you. Thank you. People
still walk up to you and say I brought you
in this world and I take you out fortunately not okay,
good yeah, but um, but ye know, I mean just
like like like this, wait a minute, didn't you just
do something based on that? Uh pante for Serman's showcase.

(02:00:41):
I just heard I brought you in this world. I'll
take you out reference. I don't know if it was
a song reference or just a line reference. It might
have been a line reference, but I don't care. Okay, okay,
I didn't We didn't do a song I did. I
just praise I just thought of it. So the first
podcast what it's just got me this job, the very
first podcast I did, man, I shot my man DJ Brainschild.

(02:01:02):
Our first podcast was called yea yeah, and our logo
was you. It was you in the shirt like this
like that was our logo, like it was that's right.
I forgot the the the genesis of this very podcast

(02:01:22):
was the Gordon Cartrul podcast, which I stole Fonte. Yes,
we were done, our show was done by the time
when we started this. But yeah, but nah, man, I
know you. I said to say, you've been a part magal,
You've been a part of our of our cultural you know,
just everything for you very long time and just the

(02:01:43):
baby to see you still just after all these years,
like still flourishing, still working and like still you know,
got your good sense. I don't know dope and no
dumb shit like that. Like you you make, you make
the fifties, You making fifties look real. Good, brother, appreciate that. Man. Well,
I gotta say, just for me, this is, this is,

(02:02:05):
this has been I don't even know the word affirming.
It's been wonderful. It's been, you know, just because I
respect both of you so much, just you know, as
an MC when we talk about it's like you guys
like I talk about this love hate relationship I had
with hip hop, right, but there is still like I

(02:02:26):
can't trash hip hop because you guys are still hip hop, right,
I'm saying so that you know, right, So it's like
it's like, you know, Felicia Rasha, you know you will
tell me that you know, the light and the dark
will always coexist. They have to, right, Um, there's always
going to be that battle. So I just appreciate that,

(02:02:49):
you know, you guys are still around and still relevant
enough to be like, no, but yo, this is you know,
we still got this, so we don't even really have
to dog hip hop that them had that we got
I think, yeah, no one expected it to last this long. Like, No,
I don't think anyone expected it to be fifty year
olds that are still invested in the hip hop. I

(02:03:11):
don't think anyone, even the record companies when they first started.
I mean, I don't think anyone expected to last as
long as it did. So the idea of growing old
or growing up in hip hop, I mean, I think
that's a rarely new conversation of like the last you know,
decade or so. Maybe you know what I mean. Look,
I remember being twenty five, and I remember being like,
nobody's gonna want to hear Comrades rapping a fifty wait.

(02:03:38):
But now we are like, yeah, yeah, he's killing it.
Is killing it like it's you know it. He's thought
is in a and he's on the level like all
of to him, he owns his own lady, right, you
know what I'm saying. So, so to have you guys

(02:03:58):
still be running forces is just as a hip hop fan,
I'm so appreciative, but just as you know, a fan
of both of you guys, you know, a mirror like
I've been rocking with y'all. Said back when Marvin Matt
gave me this this single, you and Wesley were definitely

(02:04:21):
one of the first, the first like pioneers or gods
that came to see us like that consistently. Yeah, yeah,
you asked me if I remember the Belly Up Club.
It's like yo dog like that whole bus ri I
don't like yo man. Yeah, and just that's what it

(02:04:44):
was like. And and just you know, I wanted to
reiterate against I don't want it to get lost. And
how influential you guys were on what I do musically, Well,
that's because I watched you first. So this, yo, this
is racification. And on that note, I just want to

(02:05:04):
say something that has not been said. Thank you for
giving us a space to talk about one of all
of our favorite shows of all times. It's not always
easy to talk to speak lovingly about a thing that
we love so much, but you know, things have changed
and stuff. So thank you for engaging. The show is
the show. The show raised us, you know what I'm saying.
So thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, so

(02:05:27):
on behalf of Frantigolo, like yeah, sugar Steve and I'm
paying Bill, y'all, y'all mistake flash. Thank you, Malcolm Jamal
I wanted this is question love signing off for question
Love Supreme and we will see you on the next
go round. Much Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio.

(02:05:51):
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart
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