Raphael Saadiq Part 1

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Course Love Supreme. Yo,
man dog, I ain't got time to waste, Steve, I'm

(00:20):
forgetting many questions to even start with the seven minute tribute.
You already know you're the man, Robaila. Okay, I'll start
with Okay, of course, I believe I knew that you
were born in Oakland. I don't know, but tell me
where were you born? I was actually born in Oakland, California. Um, yeah,

(00:44):
right in East Suckland Hating Hospital. I'm born and raised.
The rest of my family is from Louisiana, from Louisiana,
Sweet Port, Louisiana. And I'm the only out of fourteen,
I'm the only city slicker that was born in the city. Wait,
you have thirteen other siblings? Yeah? Are you the year

(01:05):
of the baby? A baby boy? But I have a
sister that's younger than me. What is it that like
in the household? Well, everybody wasn't the household. It was
it was a little bit of your dad. It's a
little bit of that. But we were like, uh, my
father has some kids before he married my mom, before

(01:25):
he's my mom and then you know my brother Duayne,
he had a different mother, So me and Dwayne have
different mothers. Okay, got you bind the family? Yeah? Is
the entire family musically inclined or just you and Duayne? No, uh,
it's a few of us. My brother Randy, as you
probably heard him seeing on a record called Holy Smokes

(01:47):
and Gee whiz Y. That's that's the real talent in
the in the family. We were all like an afterthought
when he came to music. We just kind of snuck
in there a little bit. Where does Randy fall into
the bruce? He's like the He's like the fourth from
the oldest. He's like another brother named Alvey Wiggins. Who's

(02:09):
uh he's saying country music. Charlie Pry was his favorite
uh uh singer. So he was a country singer, but
he was he was a street thug though he he
was a real hardcore He was not no thunk. He
was a classy like gangster, you know what I mean.
But he was he's saying country music. Yeah, this explains

(02:31):
a lot of your wait, where does where does that?
Where does Dwayne fall in line with you? Wayne's Dwayne
is we had another brother in between me and Duanne
named Desmond. Desmond was the drummer in the family, and
Desmond passed away when I was seventeen years old. And
the Wayne is the older than him, one a couple

(02:51):
of years older than Desmond, So Dwayne would be Dwayne
would be like the six youngest boy. Okay, that's confused,
And actually I started thinking about it like that. I'm
like totally confused. Okay, So I know Thanksgiving and Christmas
has been hell of crazy. Yeah, it was actually good

(03:11):
because you know, it's just a lot of music in
the house and a lot of Teddy. You know, my
step mom loved Teddy Pendergrass and Osley Brothers. So that's
where we that's where our guitar stuff comes from because
we get to stay outside as long as we could.
If you know, if they if they was having a
little party, but in the house, it will be Teddy
Pendergrass and it'd be uh Osly brother So this is

(03:34):
the first time I got a chance to say ship
was on Fight to Power Fun Parents. What what is
your actual first musical memory that you I think for me,
I was like a kid who like who had you know,
you know, you have to be outside playing with individuals
and your friends and I'm not really great friends and um,

(03:56):
but I think mine was when I first got my
first UM based amplifier. I had this uh unifox and
I had a copy fended jazz called the Orlando, and
I opened up the case and I thought it was
real fur. I thought I was rich because I had
this basic guitarist fur. It was this fur inside of it.
That was my first musical experiment experience really, And then

(04:20):
I played trump. I played first trumbone and jazz man too,
So I wanted to play saxophone, but they I wanted
to play saxophone but didn't have anymore. What ages this again?
This isn't just in grade school? Well, grade school I
was just starting to play. But by the time I
got to high school, I sat in the first chair
playing trumbone. Okay, So I mean, what what is it

(04:44):
like to grow up in Oakland? Um? Kind of watching?
You know, at least from my point of view. You know,
the legend of Oakland is it's slid on the family
Stone and Graham Central Station and Taro Power and all
all these like powerful musicians that are making like you know,

(05:05):
they're international stars. Like what kind of impression is that
leaving on you? For me, it was it was everything
because we're basically a Larry Graham was more of the
idol for for me because I'm a bass player, right
but right, so, you know, like one block you would have,
you know, a band plan and it was a band
in every garage everywhere we looked. It was like Natty

(05:28):
Natalie Cole had a band that was played in Oakland.
So when they were off and not touring, they would
be playing in the garage. So Willie Wild who played
with Graham, Central Station, and we would see like you know,
Larry Graham and Um, you know, riding through the neighborhood
on the Harley Davidson and then slide. That was their thing,
rides like Harley's, like the Choppers, the Short Choppers, and

(05:50):
so they were like our comic books characters for us
because I saw all we knew was like it was
almost like a like MCS, like Rappers. It was like
Battle the Bands. It was Battle Battle Rappers, Battle Battle
of the Band's Battle Base players. If you couldn't play
like um the jam or the Son called pile on
the base, how I got you that's a head country

(06:16):
and going to rock. I got that you will get
yours wrong. I mean everybody in our neighborhood. Everybody in
our neighborhood to play base, our our guitar or drums.
So I was about ten or eleven. You were walking
into a garage and the band was playing. Somebody would say, hey,

(06:36):
my little brother could play bass. So you you couldn't
really get on the base unless you knew how to
play pile, because somebody was gonna test you out. They
were gonna that was gonna say, and you play pile
and then you have to do like this, like yeah,
as soon as you say yes, they only give you
two seconds before the drummer just kick it off. Wait

(06:57):
a minute. This is how I knew you're a special individual.
Literally last week. Last week the roots like did our
like our first run in in like eighteen months. And
so I don't know how, but I think, uh, one
of the one of these songs from star Walk came on.

(07:18):
I think it was Sneaky Freak, and my band was
asking me about it, and the way I was putting
it to them was I was like, I don't know
how to accurately judge Larry Graham's cannon because I know,
like hit wise, you know, the first three gram Central

(07:38):
Station albums were like national hits like up until Ain't
no about to doubt it, but somehow it got a
little weird around not or Mirror was like a hit.
I remember that being a hit when I was a kid.
But it's something about now do you want to dance?
And my radio sounds good to me? And the star
Walk album albums that didn't have hits on them, but

(08:01):
every from Prince to every musician I know, they swear
by those three records. And we were watching Graham Central
Station do pow last week and we were kind of
I was I was laughing because I was like, I
know this is good, but it wasn't a hit. So
I'm trying to figure out, like, am I the only
one that got this song? And you mentioned so you're

(08:22):
saying to me in Oakland that song is a writer
of passage to everybody. I mean, I mean you could
walk up to a guy in Oakland and I have
a friend named Lord Nell and I didn't know this,
and um and um, he's just one day he asked
me what I know about Larry Graham and I'm like

(08:43):
looking at him like what this dude. All this dude say,
he's a security guy stand quin in prison. That's all
I know about him. He just goes but they'll smoke
a mama, And I'm like so and Oakland and and
oh Glinn, Larry is bigger than then this slid. Larry

(09:06):
is like Larry is like um. When I was a kid,
I went I was going on the snow trip and
Tahoe and I went to buy some mittens like ten
or eleven. And I was walking the store called Lungs Drugs.
It's in Saliandro and I walk in the store. I
walk in the grocery store in Larry Graham and Chockolate

(09:28):
is getting out of a black Thunderberg suicide doors with
the wig on, with the album released. How they looked
and release yourself when they're in the air jumping up
to sitting there is that Larry Graham. Wo So I
started following him around the grocery store, looking through boxes
and and everything. So before he walks out, I run

(09:49):
out and said at the bus stop right in front
of the store. But I'm not looking back at him.
I'm just looking at the street. So Larry and Chocolate
walk up to me in front of bus stop and
look dead at me and go how are you doing?
And I'm like freaking out, Like it's like a Star
Wars moment for me. I should not go like and
I go, are you Larry Graham? He was like, yeah,

(10:11):
I'm Larry Graham. It's a chocolate And I was like
freaking out. Bro. So yeah, he was like a superhero
to us. But Pop, you have to answer your question.
How the jam David dynamite? But what about earthquake? Earthquake? Um?
They were trying to destroy their base with the towel

(10:32):
and all that stuff that year. And if you listen
to sit today the song today, right, So we used
to sit in the room as kids and just sit
by the turntable and wait for that bill to go off.
Every time we let somebody hear that song, we would
never let them leave for the first time into the

(10:53):
bell rings all the way out. When I let D'Angelo
here today for the first time, I made D'Angelo listened
to it, to the bill win all the way off,
because that's how we kind of grew up. Everybody had
to listen to the bill the first time. Dog, what's
rain for? Like? What three minutes. That's what I was

(11:15):
For those who don't know about the song, he's saying
for three minutes. You know, I'm also hating that I'm
having this conversation because I think I was ready to
just dismiss it because one of the one of the
one of the playlists that I have or my Spotify
is called Songs and and E Minor and Songs and

(11:36):
the Minor that I hate. I know for bass players
like E Minor is like a rite of passage key,
but for me, it's like unless you're trying to top
the Jam or shigning Star or thank you for let
Me be Myself like or or a song like Glide,

(12:00):
like I almost feel like that's such a taboo key
for bass players. But yet like the amount of songs
that I hear people trying to attempt to to hop
that Jump, that Cliff that film and Louise Cliff and
they never make it. Now now you got me, Like,
now I gotta go back and reconsider that just because

(12:21):
it's it means something in Oakland. That's that's very true.
I mean, I mean I can't I've never I don't
think I've ever wrote a song that was worth anything
any Minor. I care from Oakland. I don't think you
is that even on purpose, Like I just don't think.
I just don't every time I don't. I heard, I

(12:42):
mean I heard through the grapevine that you know, um
through one of my friends. Um she does does she
does that. She has a podcast What what What? Most Steps? Mom?
Um and UM erica' connor and and she talked to
you spoke to your mom, I think, and they said
you had perfect your mom's that you have perfect pitch
as a kid. Yeah, so I only have perfect pitch

(13:05):
for a natural because of Larry Graham. Wow. Anything past that,
I'm done. You tell me because I played every every
Graham song and I could just now I know where
I'm Yeah, I mean I based all my things on
whatever the song is. You know, like if you say

(13:27):
b Minor, I just instantly think, don't stop the year enough.
If you say it's also based on the print of
Michael Jackson's on g I'm like, oh, that's shake your
body down to the ground, So it's not. And even
I spoke to Billy Graham one time I was hanging
outside of Oakland collis in. I think you meant Reverend

(13:49):
Billy Graham. I'm like, well, no, Bill Graham, the proter,
the promoter. He saw me trying to sneak in this concert.
He left me in the concert and he's said, are
you musician? I said yes, And he says, what do you?
What do you play outside of play bass? Who's your
favorite musician? I said Larry Graham. He said Larry would

(14:10):
be much better if you stopped making battle records and
so and by him saying that, who know I was
gonna be ever making records? I didn't know. I never
tried to be a singer or anything. I just want
to play in the band. I never wanted to be
a singer. I never wanted to be a lead singer.
I just wanted to play for a band and work

(14:30):
at a record store. That was probably it. And um,
but once he said that I started making music, it
always stayed in my head. Never tried to be a
battle band trying to make records. That makes sense because
even his songs were about how good of a band
we are and you'll never get to this level of
perfection that I'm iNTS to battist group from East to West.

(14:55):
What was it like the first time you got Larry
Graham's ere for real. When when I first got his yere,
I was I was at Eddie Murphy's house and he
was hanging out with Eddie Murphy and I'm like wow.
So he was just yeah, he was hanging out in
the garage. It was just me and him in the garage,
and I was like, Okay, when am I going to
break this to this dude? Did I've been like the

(15:17):
stalking my whole life and I'm because we're talking on
some creeens, just real cool, and I was just like,
forget it. Here we go. We're sitting in the garage
next to some jet skis. I said, hey, man, I
grew up in Oakland. I was in a band with
your son, Derek Graham and um in my high school band.
He was like really, I said, yeah, man, I played bass,
so I didn't have a bass on me. I had

(15:39):
an acoustic. So I tried to play something on acoustic
that was his and it just didn't work. Tony didn't
mean anything to him at that time. He I think
he knew about the Tonys, but he didn't know when
I played bass. Remember, nobody thought I was like everybody dance,

(16:00):
you know, Nobody knew that I was only made to
play Base because when we first came out, there were
no bands out and and everybody wanted us to be like,
you know, we had to compete with Guy and everybody
was out. So I had to put the base down
and had to become this other thing. So nobody really
knew me for playing bass, which I felt like Lioness

(16:21):
and Charlie Brown like, I put down my security blanket,
which was what's what's my base? That made me feel
very manly and tough and made me feel all these
different things. So when I put it down and became
and had to sing, I wasn't really confident about singing,
so he would have no way of knowing that I
was a bass player even though I played. I played
all the records on the base on based on the
Tony's album Wow. Got Graham in my studio and Blastlee

(16:49):
and he came over and I got on the base,
and I completely cannot play base in front of Ground.
It hasn't worked yet. Everything on I tried to play,
I was like bro for some reason, it just stopped
working right now, so I just left it alone. But
when he leaves, I'm like killing it. You got mine

(17:13):
control over Larry Graham. Yeah, stop talking, Yeah we we.
He played on my album, like two albums ago. We
did a slung together it's a hiding track and I
played guitar and Rob Bacon play guitar and he played
bass and he played right in front of me, and
I was just sitting there. I was playing guitar, like

(17:33):
this is crazy. And still you ain't playing bass in
front of him. Damn wow. I think I sat in
front of Slide and um Slide and and and George
Clinton maybe two times, and this is weird. Every time
I get around Slide it's weird too. I kind of
just staring Slide and I have to leave because I'm

(17:55):
like this dude is like right. I just kind of
walked out and George says, George told Slide he said, uh,
he said, yeah, boy did. He said, that's the answer
to you right here in Oakland. It's me. He said,
that's about me. And I was sitting there looking at
them because I'm friends with his daughter, and I was like,
all this greatness in the room, George and the Slot.

(18:16):
It was actually sitting in the mobile home in front
of Eddie Murphy's house for two hours, and so Eddie goes,
who is that in that in that mobile home? And
I goes and you' nobody was uh uh slide slide,
And George and Eddie started laughing. But I knew it
was them. They just sat in the in the in

(18:37):
the in the mobile home for two hours before they
walked in. What was they doing? You know? This was
this is no longer getting this is maybe four or
five years ago. Okay, gee yeah, yeah, he together, man,

(19:03):
I can see all this for hours. We gotta push
a little bit. Um. Before you started the group, I
know that you you you cut your teeth, uh playing
with bands, and I know that why I knew of
you because of your association with Sheila. But what acts
were you playing with? Was she like like the first
national act that you got to and how that situation happened?

(19:25):
Was there anyone before that? No? Really before that, I
was I was playing locally. Um that really started to Tony's.
I played a lot of local bands and I played
I played for the Hawkins family a bit. Yeah. Joel
Smith was sort of my um my idol bass player.

(19:46):
He passed away one of the best bass players in
the world and drummers and Um, besides you. You you're
probably my one of my best favorite basing drummers. I
tell everybody said one thing about Quest. No bass player
can hey on Quest. If you play bass, you should
just murder him. Because the kids una understand that I
had is It's like what I used to look for

(20:08):
as a kid. I would knock on if I hear
a drummer in the house, I would knock on the
door and say, hey man, I'll play bass. That's how
I grew up. So I started playing with the Hawkins family.
I played with the Nette Hawkins. I played with Shirley Miller,
I played with Vanessa Bill Armstrong, and then I started
playing with Sheila and eight six audition. Levi caesar Um

(20:29):
got me the gig. He called me and said, you
know you want auditioned for Sheiley and Eddie six audition
And we went on on the Cherry Moon tour in Japan,
and when Lisa was still playing with where in Japan?
Well the way that he fired the revolution After Purple Rain,
it finally made the Internet. It's it's the Clippers on

(20:51):
the Internet. But there's a moment where Wendy and Lisa
say they knew that they knew the band was over.
He took the cloud guitar and and destroyed it on stage,
walked off stage, came back, did another solo, and then
destroyed that Cloud guitar. And then when they and Lisa
and Bobby looked at each other and it's like, yeah

(21:11):
it's over, it was over. So yeah, it was pretty
It was pretty much over on that tour. But you know,
like I said, I was like eighteen years old, so
I just had a good time hanging out with Like
Cobby was a sound guy, um round Mark. I used
to get play out of his rig and and because
the band was breaking up, Prince would use us to

(21:32):
play all the after gigs. So I would play like
You Need Another Lover or the whole album. Um every
club Prince would call us to play instead of them.
Is that why one of our listeners asked me to
ask you about the opportunity to be in Princess band.
Was it from them? Well, I was. I was gonna
be an original band from Madhouse, the group called Madhouse

(21:53):
joint right. It wanted to be in being a band
called Madhouse. But when we heard the band was going
be wearing like mask over their face, which would have
could have been dope. We had already sort of formed
because at the time it was me and Tim to him.
Tim Riley who played with the Tony's, he was a
drummer and Um, I got the gig first, and then

(22:14):
Sheila was like, don't bring back a drummer. I brought
to him back anyway, he auditioned and and my friend
Carl Wheeler, he played keyboards, and all three of us went.
We rehearsed for like two months, fifteen hours a day.
Prince hired us to play for it because he was
paying the bills basically, and I was seeing his parts
in Erotic City. He would say stuff to me. But

(22:37):
the first time he walked up to us, he he
walked up to us with a yellow suit on, and
they came and he walks out and he goes, um,
what's your name? And you know, everybody said he name,
and then he goes, Hi, Prince. We're looking like, oh ship,
I mean we're in the middle of this, We're in
the middle of the stadium, like all this sound. I've
never heard this much power before. Because when we came out,

(23:00):
it was like when he came out, he would come
out around the world in the day and the curtains
would just be that the Yeah, And so I was
sitting I was sitting in a baseball dugout, which is
a folded like makes a folded cat movie, so you
can hear all the base and I'll just say the
Revolution was the best band he ever had, except you know,

(23:23):
I wish you, you know, death Daz would have been there. Yeah,
that was it. That was pretty much at school high school.
I played in jazz band, I played for choirs, I
played gospel, I played funk, I play every club there was.
And then it was then right off the back, it
was Prince and she like, look, I feel like this

(23:44):
is probably the only time I me get the opportunity
to ask you. And you know, I'm a print head,
but you already mentioned the Hawkins family, and I just
literally like, I, what is what is that circuit? Like
like that whole hospool circuit in in in the Hawkins.
Was it Walter or Edwin? It was Walter at this

(24:07):
at this time, it was more Walter that Edwin is
the pioneer who you know kind of produced that the
version of Old Happy Days because that's really an old song,
but he actually reproduced it his way, But honestly, playing
for playing for like the Hawkins family for us was
that's equivalent to like Tower power in Oakland. You know

(24:28):
we had Tower power then we had the Hawkins family
and they were the whole circuit. They were the whole gamute.
If you want to play gospel, that was the biggest god.
Besides you know, if you go down a little south,
you've got Andre Crouch. Did you play with Crouch at all? No? No,
justink my I'm a huge fan and I listened to
him like every every week. I listen to Dre Crouch.

(24:52):
But it's it's a big circuit. It was. It was
great music every Sunday morning every week. Uh. Right next
to to my high school was Love Centers First Church
where they recorded like follow Me in all these records.
So we would go to we would go to lunch
and we will listen to Joel Smith and Um Johnson
the boast rehearse at lunchtime. What yeah, How was the

(25:16):
money's gospel money? How's gospel money? As a teenager in
a band, how's the gospel money? Man? Let me tell
you something. I'm never worried about no money in the
music industry till now wait what now, I donunderstand. I
don't understand how much I love music. I made money
being an artist now, but I play so many gigs

(25:37):
because I love music. You know, whatever money I got Oakland,
Hey man, if he wasn't getting murdered or killed when
you wake up, everyone else is extra. I mean, we
used to. We had our sound managed to cost the Tony's.
Our sound managed to cost us a hundred and fifty dollars,

(25:58):
and we was making a hundred and fifty dollars playing
the clubs we just had. We just got rid of
the idle time that we didn't need to be hanging
out in the street because we were. We pretty much
just not no band. Dudes, if you're in Oakland, you
gotta do Oakland things too. When to you know, til
you get done with doing Oakland things? Okay? Since Too

(26:19):
Short was on the show and he kind of outed
himself as a nerd disguise as a gangster, we what
was I mean, how did how did you? Because I'm
I'm thinking that that life chooses you like you don't
have a choice to say I'm not going to do

(26:40):
that or I will do that, because I feel like
that life chooses you, like, you don't have a choice
but to walk past this corner and past this group
and either get jumped in or beat down whatever. Like,
how did you avoid what I know to be Oakland?
Because Oakland is probably want to be Rasies. I mean

(27:00):
the Bay Area in general, especially when we first started
going there, like in the nineties, so I know that
in the eighties and in the seventies. I mean, you're
you're forever gonna look thirty six, So I don't know
how old you are, but I know although you look
like old as hell? What was it I avoided? Because

(27:27):
you know, like I have a lot of families from Chicago,
a lot of family in Chicago on the South Side
and the West Side, and and you know, your your
parents on the phone, you're hearing about everything just happened
to your family. And also with all those brothers and sisters.
I lost three brothers and sisters. On one of my
brothers committed suicide. One of my brothers, Alvi got was murdered,
and my other's sister hit by a car some cop

(27:49):
running from a kid, uh a kid running from a
copy this car or kill my sister at permanent brain damage.
It when you see trauma like that, you know, and
you've My father would say to me all the time.
He was like, if you see somebody um when my
brother killed himself because he couldn't get off dope. So
my father was saying, if you see somebody shooting the

(28:09):
gun and wrapid rapid fire, what you're gonna do? At
this point, I was so young, I don't even know
what rapp it men. And I said, I'm gonna turn
around and go the other way. That's what I'm talking about.
He was just so frustrated. And he also said, if
you know, when you go to jail, it's a very
difficult thing. Down there is a system. It's hard to understand.
And you know, so when I do know one thing,

(28:31):
they give you one phone call. So I if you
go to jail, I think you should call somebody to
understand that system because I don't know anything about it.
And that's what KEPT mean, I'm not coming for you.
And my father wasn't only want to carry a pocket
full of money, a water full of money. So with that,
and and how much I love music, I will I'll

(28:53):
say that you know instrumentation musicians like earth wind and Fire,
and you know even like the mom was, the pop
was all the music I used here in Berkeley and
San Francisco, and the hippie stuff that I used to
here in all the gospel. It really saved my life.
So when I when I run into people like Rest
in Peace, like Maurice White, and I see Verdine and
those guys, I just tell them you basically saved my

(29:14):
life about making great music because it kept me in
my room making music, making music. But on the other side,
I felt like my life was like the the narration
of the movie City of Gods. Like I was with
I was like the kid with the camera. I had
a moped and I would ride around Oakland. I would
witness some murderers because I was everywhere. I would see stuff.

(29:35):
I would keep going and I would be listening to
in my headphones and my Sony walking in with a cassette.
I'll be listening to Ronnie run to Russia. Ron didn't
run to the Russia before It's too late, you know,
But that nobody knew what I'd be listening to. And
um so between the hood of everybody listening to Needy
and Funkadelic and everything, my neighborhood was listening. My neighborhood

(29:57):
was big on funkadelic, right, So I think the music
sort of like you said, the street is the street.
The streets could be your father and your mother. But
my father was my father, my mother was my mother,
and music was like my god. Parents. Can I have
the word, because um, I know most parents I know

(30:18):
well sort of drift towards safety more than pursuing a dream.
So assuming that you know you're that you were passionate
about your your your musical pursuits were your parents and
like encouraging and nurturing on that end, or were they

(30:39):
just like nah boyd like go to post office, get
a job. Like my mother was like get you fifty
years in over at the Highland Hospital and you're my age,
you can retire. Uh. My father was a little bit um.
My father could play guitar a little bit. He could
see my dad kind of seeking like Sam Cook. But

(30:59):
my dad was just like I used to work in
you you know, in the parcel for for a minute,
I had all kind of like I had jobs. I
was doing landscaping. It was another like you couldn't be
at my house and and tell somebody you're gonna be
a start and leave me alone. That ship was not
gonna lie. So uh, I think my father told me
when I told him I got this gig, he just

(31:22):
told me said, hey, if you want to, if you could,
because everybody was saying, you know, church people, you're going
to here because you're playing R and B, and my
dad would stay son the church KYFG is the same
key as R, R and B, the same KYRG. If
you don't, if you want to, if that scares you,
I got some work for you at it's a naval
air you know, if you've been come and work here.

(31:44):
But other than that, I just I think I got
a job playing this gig at this club called Lucky
Lion with this band. And I told my father because
I bust my fingers at ups, I bust three of
my fingers on the conveyor belt and then my nails
came right off. I quit because I didn't want to.
You know, they had these safety working days, and if

(32:04):
you're ringing the bell, you mess up the whole staff
safety working days. I tried to hold it for a minute,
but when the nails came out hit the alarm, called
my dad and said, I got this gig. I wanna
do this gig up and my dad said, well, don't
tell your mom. Do not tell your mother. If you
need some money, call me. And I never had to
call him because I had those little undred fifty dollar gigs.

(32:26):
But my mother didn't find out that I quit that
job until she saw me on the Tonys on arseni
or Hall Wow, And what did she say? She did?
My mother didn't know I could sing. She she know,
she knew, she saw me kind of thing. Unf I mean,

(32:47):
but that's not Nobody knew I could sing. Nobody in
my high school because I was singing at home. You
don't mess around. But my mother didn't realize that I
wasn't working at you ups until she turned to Arsenio
on it was Tony Tony an Tony and I was all,
you know, going for it, dog, yo, man, you don't

(33:08):
even know between between your love of pal and that story.
No one believes me when I tell my dad wanted
to say that my dad didn't know about the Roots
until our our second album. They're like, yeah, yeah, you
hide that ship yo, Wow hid you can't. It's none
of that. Come on, when I got a dream or
what wowdream? What a dream he won college and he

(33:34):
wasn't having that like just hang with that, Tarik. No,
you go sa that insurance that Tarik believe that hold
him right. Um, around eighties six, I know that. Um.

(33:55):
You know Foster McElroy produced the first Tony record. But
what was what was like the relationship? Did you guys
have any runnings with like j King the club New
Vot Click. Yeah. Well I lived in Sacramento for after
I moved out of Oakland. I came back off the
tour by first tour after the eight my mom had

(34:16):
moved to Sacramento. I came into my house and it
said we moved to Sacramento, and now the house I
bought my mom bought her on house. Everybody think I
bought my mother house. It was in Jet magazine and
he bought his MoMA house. My mother here, by the
damn thing. Good night. When you first saw the roots
in Sacramento, you still living in your mom's house. No, No,
I had bought a house in Sacramento. I followed. I

(34:39):
followed her. I lived there at the first couple of years.
I wasn't buying nothing, but I had a toyo. The
trade here wrapped all from my sister. I wasn't buying nothing,
but I was very fruble. I wasn't. I didn't believe
the hype either. They scared me so much about being
an artist. I never really bought into the whole artist thing. Really.
I kept I kept a very low pro but I

(35:02):
wrote just Me and you and my Mother's in my
room in my mother's house on an MP and a
T three accord. And I wasn't I wrote that in
my room. Wow. Yeah, So then I was. I just
so I didn't run into j King a lot um
Club New Vau, because he actually spun off Danny and Tommy,

(35:22):
and Denny and Tommy went on to get a production
deal with Ed Exstein over at um Wing Records, which
he became the predent president of PolyGram. And after that, right,
I'm Billy ex Stein and x Stein was Ed x
Stein was R. Clive Davis. After that, we never had one.
Since I've been pretty much on my own, I never

(35:43):
had to go to I had no connect after that.
After that was just connecting with artists and just kind
of just um doing myself. But Danny and Tommy was
definitely the ones who who spun us into making songs
because we had just left Print and I don't know
what what happened to us right after that. I don't
think we had any we we didn't have any producer

(36:05):
skills or any like. We knew structure, song structure, but
we wasn't studying it. We would have came out trying
to be probably Monserati and somebody if it wasn't for
those too. One, if Prince is offen you an opportunity

(36:25):
to do something, in your mind, it's like, yo, we're
about to make it. Like not how much courage did
it take? But obviously you gave them a note and
at one point, like was basically park even trying to
sign you guys, you never got it, never got that far.
I was just like Sheila was gonna fire us pretty
soon because she was going on to play on the

(36:47):
Signs at the Times tour. So like Prince will get
on the bus, he would play. He would play Signs
at the Times the whole album mark. He would he
would see me in the club and were like he's like,
come over here, I want to play you something, and
then we'll walk to the speaker. He would look at
the DJ and he was like, hold on he like,

(37:07):
put your head in the speaking, so both of us
would put our head inside of a folded cabinet in
like this, and then he'll points to the DJ and
then he played house Quake. And at that point I
knew Sheila was on our way and we was on
our way home. And then they put like they put
like her role manager Roy uh got his name at
the time. They put McDonald applications in our and our

(37:30):
bunks on the tour circle back again? So wait, circle
back again, Tony, Tony, Tony, what was your circle back
with Prince and Sheila? Appreciate that I did? I did,
I did? I said, let us sit for a second.
I'm sorry. I didn't know. I didn't when I considered

(37:52):
take the moment he walked up with Mickey d applications
in our bumps. Yeah, because that was it, and we
were going home because he was playing all these hits,
you know, offishing coffee was like damn. So he took
Levin Caesar, he took Sheila, and he took Bonnie Boy
and we were all in the band together with Sheila
talking about I know nothing about like Bonnie came from

(38:14):
Old correct, Bonnie was from Oakland. She was funky. I
mean she would pick up my basse and showed me
some funk licks that I didn't know. And yeah, so
her boyfriend growing up was in this band called Windstorm. Right.
Her boyfriend and back in the day was Rusty Allen.

(38:35):
Rusty Allen. She did that Rusty Allen's uh Larry's replacement
and family. So she knew all that bass stuff from him.
So she used to show me licks that I one day,
we're sitting down and I'll show you what she showed me.
She took my basse in the in the back of
the buzz and just took my basse like give me that.

(38:55):
It just started like and almost like damn like. So yeah,
Bonnie was. She was a Oakland on the Oakland's Greatest
she Um. She was a vocal colt. She was a
keyboard player with Sheila. She doubled Sheila vocals on the tour.
If you listen to Kissing you did, I did. I
produced for a Puffies group. Total um. That that the backgrounds,

(39:18):
that's her. That's Bonnie Boye. Wow, did not know. That's awesome.
So she was she was. She was. She was all
that man so that experience. Hey, one more quick question.
I know also know, I know that um around. Wait

(39:39):
was was Rosie from Oakland or was she from l A.
I don't. I don't know exactly what she's from, but
she lived in Oakland most of her life. She was
like she was in that circle as well, and didn't
come until the second draft wouldn't be g but I
wanted to know if she made her rounds in the
local Oh, she was like, she had like local gigs

(39:59):
and everybody play with her. She had a I mean,
Prince pretty much adopted everybody out of Oakland, from Miko
Weaver to Sheila's first bandakand Too. Yeah, bro, everybody getting him? Man, Oh,
everybody Prince used after the Revolution was all Oakland based,
mostly a Latin the next two bands obviously. Okay, that

(40:22):
makes that makes total sense. Okay, so circle back now
after the McDonald's applications are on your bed but you're grown.
You're right, Tony, Tony, Tony, what's the first running the
Prince and Sheila Eli, now that you have proven your
stelf to the world, Yeah, well, I think, uh, the
first one was when I wrote this song on my
first song called Born Out to Know, and I wrote

(40:45):
this line said for no reason. It's only because I'm
a lazy songwriter and I just wrote this lyric that said, uh,
things are getting crazy. I'm not wearing Paisley because I
was born out to know. So Prince must have heard that.
Invited me into a show in Hamptonsvirginia on the Love
Sexy tour and he asked me if I wanted to
come on stage, and I'm like, yeah, sure. So I

(41:06):
come on stage and he said, you want to come
up and play basketball. So we're just shooting basketball on
the court. He's shooting around and then he goes Then
it gets to Mike and he goes out, here's a
little boy who made the pays the rhyme. And I'm like, damn,
he heard that, and so right, boy, that's where I was.

(41:28):
I was at boy now, But to him, here's a
little boy who made the pays and rhyme. And I'm
like wow. So he gives me the microphone. He leaves
me on the stage. Now this is Pat and I'm like, well,
I've got a couple of band members up there. I'm like,
I don't know what to do, like you know, so
I started singing Heylo Walter and the crowd, and she
loves on drums, Bonny and everybody. And this time Prince

(41:51):
had from what I heard, princes never really invited people
on the stage for that, No Leanney, nobody, and he
invited me on the stage. And so everybody in the
band that knew me, they was all crying, and I'm like,
why are they crying Because they were saying because he
was being so nice to me. But he always been really,
really really nice to me. He always like invited me
out to dinner in Japan. You wanna go, you wanna

(42:13):
get something to eat, You want to go do this.
You need some girls, you need some models. He was
always like that to me. Um, it was weird because
nothing about Princess when Um, when when I was gonna
be in Madhouse, he told me, he told Levi to
tell me to go listen to the Chamber Brothers. I
never heard of the Chamber Brothers. So when I got
back home off the tour, after I decided not to

(42:35):
go back with friends like the Prince thing never came
to a few fuishtion like people thought, but I remember
him saying I should listen to the Chamber Brothers. So
I went to this place called Leopold's in Berkeley, and
I bought every Chamber Brothers album there was and when
I listened to it, they had a son called the
Spiritual Negro Spiritual called Wade in the Water and they

(42:58):
it was so dark and how they did it. And
my first single ever what the Tony's was hey little Walter.
Yeah right, so Prince was like, uh kind of responsible
for giving me a little light on that, which became
it Tony's first ever ever single hit song and Sindbad's

(43:19):
first video appearance. That's right. Wait, I just want to
put it in perspective because a little confused. Yeah, the
way that the Love Sex Tour was set up was
Prince also had a basketball court on the stage. Stage
it was it was the show was in the round.
I mean like his last rounce of shows worth so

(43:40):
it was like an elaborate It was probably his most
expensive setup. So yeah, uh wait, speaking of which, speaking
of who the song to six to one five, especially
the pre internet, whose idea was that was in mine?

(44:06):
Was that your brother? All right? First of all, can
you explain because I feel like the songs that your
brother produces sounds the way that you guys work like,
is there an alpha for the person that brings the
song to to the forefront or does he just work
on a song by himself and you work on a

(44:28):
song by yourself and you just figure like, Okay, well
here's our tony album or how does that work? And
then in the later albums it was really exactly what
you said. And the other one maybe the second album around.
The first album was mainly you know, Danny and Tommy
and us, but the first single, like Little Walter was
just me, uh, Danny and Tommy, those guys we got

(44:51):
our first song. They didn't even show up to the
studio at all, so um for the first song. And
so but Dwayne, Dwayne will come up songs at home.
He will he'll come in and will get together and
figure him out. But he will come up with a
title like two six one point five that's actually a
peno call for messing with. Yes, you know that's that's

(45:17):
that's crazy. You're the only one everybody we know who
knows that. I had to ask you, how would he
know that? Should I ask that? I didn't mean, I
don't think I think I think he was At the time,
he had dated a younger lady he was his friend,
and um, I think her auntie was an attorney. She was,

(45:42):
but she was pretty much a fast as one of
the fast as little girls who was like, you know, smart,
they're really smart, and was just like, you know, this
is like a two six one point five, and so
like that's the song. And so he wrote a song
about it, and we sort of took it from that. People,
let me tell you about a best friend. He's the
one first in and look and I always I always

(46:06):
love that show as a kid. So I added that
part the vamp of the song, and um, yeah, I
just yeah, that's the way and answer you a question. Yeah,
I was gonna say in an interview, you guys wants
to describe yourself, you said that you were seventy yourselves
the time and then ten percent the monkeys. That that

(46:30):
was the way. I had nothing to do with any
of that, the monkey. But the thing the thing is, though,
I mean I understood the monkey's reference. Mind you, he
said it on Soulturing, so like that would have thrown
everyone off, but I got it that you guys like
humor the time. The time definitely showed that humor because

(46:53):
we was none of that. If I could just clear.
If I could just say who we were, I would
say we were We were like everything that the Oakland
but Oakland gave us, and we were a bit of
trying to be like an earth Wind and Fire and
the Commodore's And like my brother used to singing like

(47:15):
this song called Hello Sunshine, Hello sun Shine. Dwayne was that.
Dwayne was more like the Pbow Bryson who played guitar.
We were a little bit of We were a little
bit of the Isley Brothers, a little bit of earth
Wind and Fire in the Commodores, and we we were
like a funk band. We were more like a brick.
I think that's who we were. I think doing Dwayne

(47:37):
would say things that he thought sounded great on TV.
I mean, I mean because you guys had you guys
were funny. You guys showed humor in like your pop
culture references and all that stuff that the wrong isn't
the wrong kid? Yeah, I mean, but for me, I

(47:58):
was always trying to be honestly. For me, I was
only trying to I was more of a hip hop
East Coast hip hop head, so I was always trying
to find out how why was those drums so dirty
and hip hop, and our drums were so clean. So
my whole quest was to find out how to you
to get dirty drums on my music. And how I

(48:21):
found out was I was I s ice Cube on
our first tour and because we toured in w as
it was, it was it was crazy because there were
no other bands, and I think they needed us on
the tour because it was for insurance reasons. It wasn't

(48:42):
you know, and it was for insurance reasons. Nobody told
me that. I had to figure that out. But anyway,
I was hanging out ice Cube and he told me
that the reason why drums sound like that, it's these
It's called break beats, and you could get up. You
could get these records from like forty five kings from
the Swap Meat to the Swap Meet, and I bought

(49:02):
every break beat and that's when I started hearing the
meters and that's the music I really love. And then
hip hop was like tried and everybody was sampling Slide
and the songs that I like, and I was like,
that's what I'm gonna get into was more of that,
and then I try to marry the both. So what
was that project that came after that, after you had

(49:23):
that conversation with I c me, you went out and
brought all that stuff. What was the Tony Tony proct?
So no revival? I was gonna say, what lessons did
you learn, assuming that you guys took the lead on it,
what lessons did you learn on revival um that you
didn't know on the Who record? And how did you

(49:46):
break to Danny and Tommy? Because I mean the Who
record was a hit. I mean, you guys have three
hits on it, So what's the like are you talking
to Ed x Stein saying like, look, I think we
could do this on our own. Let us I think
we just said that we wanted to do it on
our own. I don't know if we knew what the
hell we were doing it all. We were definitely you know,
you know, yeah, I'll give kudos to add because he

(50:09):
let us actually do it. But we've we've never had
to end our person nowhere near our rooms ever. We
just we just spent too much money figuring out on
that second album. I think we rented a Sinclavera for
like two hundred fifty dollars for the whole time, So
we got ripped off on that. So that's what I learned,

(50:29):
uh on how not to spend money on something you
didn't really need about to say that, y'all even use
it on that album, were using on the whole album.
That's why it sounds so clean, like whatever you want
to it's like, so it sounds like crisp. We just
we just interviewed Pat mcfenny, who also, like you know,

(50:50):
he's the think King. Yes, exactly. So he was explaining,
like the early stages of that was like very expensive
to operate when we looked at it. We looked at
the budget and I was like, okay, we'll never do that. Also,
I knew that, Um, you guys worked with Keith Crouch
on that album as well. He Keith, Yeah, Keith played um.

(51:14):
He's played This is a funny story. Keith. Keith played um,
he played He played bass synthesizer on maybe one of
the songs he tore with us. He didn't really he
played on those with the days I think okay, um,
but so and so me and Keith got into a
little altercation over this girl like when it was funny.
So right after he played almos So when I did
Tony's in the wrong key. I introduced everybody who played

(51:39):
with us. He heard it. His name used to be
on it. But when it got to his name, I said,
and we had this one man and his name is
and his name and his name is So and you
know Betty. So we're really cool. We're really cool. He

(52:03):
told me. A long time ago, he said, bro, I
was in the room with all my friends, and he said,
I was listing the record and said, by the name
of I was petty those days. I was very petty.
Oh man, I can't believe that ship. So you got
the game? Say it again? Did you get to PS five?

(52:26):
Just wait, Rol? You see him a PlayStation? Is that?
What's going on? Right? No, you don't want to answer
that question, Raphael. You want to finish the interview. Oh, okay,
your gamer? I am now, Yes, I was an ex gamer.
I thought I got out the game, and then when
I got this, uh my, my entire staff was like, yo, man,

(52:50):
your life is about to change. I'm afraid you open it.
The box is blacked out, Yes it is. Can we
see it? He want? Can we see it? Yes? Blackouts?
My game company is called il Phonic, and I've never
really questioning. He was like, what is this? So I
sent him a game to say, you know, we got

(53:13):
a game called r K getting. It's me and my engineer.
We started a game company called il Phonic and I'm
a nas is one of my favorite m sees. So
I called it Illphonic after Ilmatic and um yeah, so
we it's a guy in the world again. Thirteen years
of uh so, my partner Chuck brun Gard, we started

(53:34):
the game. We started this game coming together because we
were finding the heart of the music industry to like,
even we make records like record industry, people wouldn't even
let us makes our own records for other people that
we produced. So I came up with another game, a
game that we used to laugh about called Ghetto Golf
because they wouldn't let me in the fighting game on
Russell Simmons label. I knew I could never be on

(53:54):
the game. It was an RB, it was a rap game.
So we started this coming. We started this company back
then and we split up to start the game. He
moved to Denver. We started at my studio and like
after thirteen years, we did Predator Friday the thirteen and
doing really well. And then this is the first year
I started I said something about it because really, in

(54:16):
the gaming world, people don't really care about you being
a musician. They just want to have funny you know,
video games is about gameplay, and um, one of our
guys that Steve Wetman, is the visual guy who get
all the styles of music, which is uh, you know,
like the music is kind of based on like if
it was a futuristic dealer or fifty years from now

(54:37):
or like jungle funk, and it's a lot of different
people who um, a lot of different musicians who did
I didn't do any music in the game. Usually when
I talk about the video game, people go, oh, you
put music in the game. I'm like, uh no, No,
I owned the game company last game. Yeah, I just
want invested invested in it, and it's doing really well.

(54:59):
And in Quest is the first person that I actually
sent a personalized lacked out. It's a multiplayer Yeah, it's
a multiplayer game. Um um, you could play, you can play,
you could play it in the configuration on one on one,

(55:21):
you could do the way. But it's a quroberative multiplayer game.
If you know anything about games, and we just really, uh,
I just want to get into this world because I
just felt I found it kind of hard beauty in
the music injury so clicky, you know what I mean?
Like I said, I haven't had a goal to person
since Edex time. So I said, you know what, the
way the way the music industry is now with streaming.

(55:43):
You know, my music is not a game, and in
games they stream, so I was figured I should get
into something where streaming was gonna be very popular. Game.
So how many games you got in game? Like you
can go? How many games you got out Friday the thirteen,
the last one in Predator and be working on Ghostbusters
right now? And RK in his art right now it's
it's an Epics store in two thousand and twenty two.

(56:05):
It's gonna be a lot more platforms and um a
lot more platforms than just PS five, But right now
was the Epics Store. On PS five, I was game,
what games do you play? Like? What some of your
games that you just play to be a game? I
could play Caller do you a little bit a lot?
But I'm really I'm really like a sports junkie, like
I'm a statement man two K something like people like

(56:27):
to play nice my son, my son? They be on
two K he got new when he's been killing it,
does he play he plays two K he's on he's
on two K. I mean he was you know, like
all the kids when he was on Fortnite, you know
heavy when that was that was popular. But he's more
of a two k uh guy. I'm more of I

(56:50):
do first I could do first person shooter, but I'm
more so like you know, Resident Evil survival horror, like
I'm in the story type ship. You know what. Okay, yeah,
that's what this is. This is check it out. I
gotta P five too, I gotta P five. But I
want to say to question, congratulations on on the documentary.
I must have watched it like seven times on my couch.

(57:12):
And so you don't think you're about to leave a
maror he thinks he's satting down like he's thinking about
the clothes. I'm not sure. I just want to make
sure that I said that because when that comes up
in my queue, like, I get chills watching the Fifth Dimensions.
I've never seen the move, so to watch it come
to life and to know that that happened, and to know,

(57:35):
like I mean, people that need they were black. I mean,
there's so much question is always passing out history like
I'm definitely using it for my next project because yeah,
oh wow, yes you know what he told me his
daughter to me, Yeah, that's amazing. I shall be calling you.

(58:01):
What was how not? How or why? What was the process?
How was Lisa Bonne the deciding factor in directing uh
the California video? M hm for never end, A lot
of people turned the treatments. She just had the best.
She had the best treatment, honestly, And we were always
trying to we were always trying to be different. At

(58:24):
the same time, we didn't want to. We didn't want
to out our our the audience that we gained, right,
but we felt like we could gain a new audience
and we could. You know, we felt like Lisa just
she had to adge, she had to edge on them
all the interior decorating that that I like, Um, she
kind of gave me an apartment that I've never had

(58:45):
at that time, you know, um, just at that time,
I didn't know that she was heavily direct like into
directing videos or whatever. So she had like a rep
that said, like open, yeah, I guess she did. I
don't think she did it too much to think she
I think she disliked the record, and she just offered
a treatment, and we just chose her to to direct.

(59:08):
If the Prince was about to hire for one of
the songs on Diamonds Pros, the thing like walk don't Walk. Okay,
whether they shot it, I'm not certain, but I believe
that she was. I don't think they shot it, you know,
I mean, Prince is the kind of guy that will
do a movie and then put it away for like
forty two seconds. But you know, Oh, my boy wanted

(59:30):
me to ask you, how did you talk Don Cornelius
into the House Party video which I think Don does
a cameo. Don Cornelius has a cameo and the I
don't know what you come to do? Uh, I don't know.
I don't think Don is gonna like me too much.
I don't know, Wait what what you do? Don? I

(59:54):
love we loved, I love Don on me, I said.
I watched, So I think I found is that it
wasn't that he didn't like me. I remember doing soult
Train one time, and I just remember all these girls,
like I call it halftime when everybody's taking a break.
First time doing SoulTrain, and you're like, oh, this is Soultrained.
But then when I saw all the girls like feed

(01:00:15):
herding and eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and half time, I
was like, this ship is kind of cheesy a little bit,
right they feed them KFC and then um it was bad,
you know. And so but then we was on there
with a new edition, in a new edition, like they took,
they did one take, they looked at the monitor, they

(01:00:36):
came back, they did it over. They did over about
four or five times until they liked it. And Little
Rest in Peace Little Silas was an m c A
Records at the time, and so when we got up
there to our performance, man, we performed once and they
were like, got it. I'm like, we don't get to
look at the monitor, you see if we like what

(01:00:57):
I What I realized is that, you know, our label
probably wasn't spending spending the sponsor money. It's a nice
way to phrase that, you know. So we were pretty
much a one and done. And when I found out out,
I just I was kind of just a little disheartening with,
you know, the way that I was learning on the
fly how the industry was. So so when I did

(01:01:19):
get involved, I was done with Soul Trained. So when
I did get involved. Um yeah, they they they wanted
me to do to perform on Soul Train, and I
was like, and I'm not doing Soul Trained, so they
begged me to do it. So I was like, I
stood outside the paramount until it was time for me

(01:01:41):
to walk and say, I don't want to be in
the dressing room. I stood outside. I walked in and
I performed and I walked out. And then um years later,
I was up the street called whitenecka as it's a
little golf, a little driving range, and I went to
this little driving range just to hang out some balls
and Don Canuees was there just hitting balls and he

(01:02:03):
just walked up to me and we had a amazing conversation.
He was just giving me props in Solb'm watching you.
I'll see what you're doing. And he didn't he he
didn like me. But I was young and I was
confused about the politics. You know what I mean. Nobody,
nobody was spinning on bread with him at my label.
You know that you have dreams of like being on

(01:02:25):
this legacy show and then you get to see how
the sausage just made and it's not like how you
think it is. And that is disappointing. Yeah, you know
you could be like, you know, like you mean to
actually throw these saucers on the ground and kick him
around and then put him in the bun exactly. Yeah, Okay,
I gotta jump to suns and Soul. So the first
time that I had I didn't have an interaction with you.

(01:02:50):
This is weird enough. We had an audition, uh with
that x Stein and we were going to sign to
PolyGram H And I went to I went to some
dinner uptown. I forget where it was. You were also
at this restaurant, and I can overhear your conversation, and

(01:03:18):
you were talking about this tour and you were telling
the craziest stories I've ever heard in my life. Like
I would think that you were talking about like like
Hammer the God's era led Zeppelin, and you weren't talking
about You were talking about touring with Janet Jackson, now

(01:03:42):
without you burning bridges from one to ten And I'm
not talking about the Tony Tony Tony side of things
for one to ten. How crazy was that Janet Jackson tour?
It was a ten that planted a lot of seeds
in my head on like those things can happen on

(01:04:04):
the route. Yeah, it was just you know what it's like,
you know, we're of course we were like huge, j
I'm gonna use Michael. I'm a Jackson five fan, you know.
So I grew up with the Brothers, the first black families,
So I mean, you know, I love Randy, loved to Jackson.
So just to get on the tour and learning tour,
you just learned tour politics right, and the tour politics

(01:04:27):
were I took two guys. They were just out of
high school, really had nowhere to live. There were dancers.
I took him on the tour. I met him in Sacramento.
I just moved to San Francisco. Just oh hip hop
world and documental that I found and I used to
play with him freestyle. You know, I should play bass.
Was this thing called sixty seconds direct MC has come up.
It was based playering the drummer and so I will

(01:04:48):
meet all these mcs and and it was a couple
of dancers live in my neighborhood. So I took him
on the tour and Janet people said it was a
it was conflicting with their show with these two dancers
that we had no I think that Janet had like
thirty five whatever if you look at Pleasure Principle or whatever,
those those videos and she has the whole real nation. Yeah,

(01:05:14):
so they told us we had to like get rid
of the dances. What right her At the time, her
husband was his name was Renee. He kind of walked
in and said, you know, Janet thinks it's in conflict
with her. And I was like, man, look, we got
two dancers. If that's I'm leaving, I'm like, I'm like,

(01:05:38):
I'm not telling them kids. They got to go home.
These two kids are like eighteen years old, twenty but
no money, you know what I mean. We we only
they only had two sets of two suits to tour with,
I mean, and we had no lights on the stage
and nothing. I mean, you couldn't even see something that tour.
I should tell people on the radio, if you want
to see us, bring a flashlight. And then we never

(01:06:03):
really met Jannet, and she invited us on the tour.
So I remember I came. I came to the show
once and my whole band in the row cruise in
this big line and they by her room and they
were all walking to her room. She was in the
front door shaking their hand, and I just was walking
by and I'm like, I'm not standing in the line

(01:06:23):
and shake her hand. Like when you go on tour,
you supposed to like introduced to come say hi to
the group and say hey, you invited this. So that
was kind of that for me. And I think I
was on the radio station and I said, you know,
from Oakland something. They asked me, how was it, you know,
being you know, meeting Jenn I was like at this point,
it was We've been on tour a long time. I said,
I've never met her, but I think, you know, she

(01:06:46):
probably the same girl from Good Times Penny, you know. Yeah,
so you know, I had jokes, but you know, we
we love Janet and we mean, I love Jimmy and Terry,
and it was, you know, we well it was to
our support. We're only making like three thousand dollars a night,
so we had to pay for our tour bus. And

(01:07:06):
then like what happened was Michael started that Michael thing
has started to happen. So some shows we will get
to and it would be tours will be canceled. And
instead of somebody calling us and saying the show is canceled,
we will find out like the fans. So we still
have to pay the crew the buses. And it happened
like three or four times. I think she was kind

(01:07:28):
of helping Michael move around, which we understand that, but
we we didn't know, so she couldn't tell us right.
So but I said, if it happens again, I'm going home.
So I left in Philly the night he got canceled.
In Philly. Yes, well that was my last night. I
went to the I took I told the bus to
take me to the airport, and then they hired many

(01:07:50):
conditions a nice parallel move. Okay, I was gonna ask
you they did a makeup show and you guys weren't
the opener. And I was so disappointed and wanted to
know what happened. What happened? So needless to say, you

(01:08:11):
are the best person to tour with because you know
what the worst is like. You know what the worst
is like. Is I I treat people people toured us.
I mean I treat people like kings. Because the first
tour that Tony's ever did was really uh with the
Rare Rocks. We opened up for Earth Wind and Fire
when more Rese White was in the group, and they

(01:08:31):
wanted a band that was more of like a track
day band because since we had to set up, we
couldn't do as many shows within and Fire. But when
we did play with them more reach White brought us
to the back of the room and said, Hey, I
love you guys. Whenever you need you can have asked
for it, you got it. However much time you need,
you got it. And that's how we treated people when

(01:08:52):
we Uh, I think Joe opened up for us and
my and my tour manager was get off the stage.
I've walked in and saw that. I walked right in
the middle of them and said, Joe, take as much
time as you want, will be in the dress room.
When you're done, you come tell us and so yeah,
so I mean we just told with Bobby Brown, Bobby

(01:09:12):
Brown is just unplugged our instruments. Well, right, we when
we I love Bobby to this day, I see we
like this. But Bobby used to come and be just
like and just at take the big socket and just
unplug it. We up there just to ah damn. But

(01:09:35):
now that was like how tour was. Tour was like
R and b was kind of ghost back in the day. Okay,
I will say for me, Sons a Soul like every
person that every musician has, like that one the album
that's like they're they're saving grace. There's in m sort

(01:09:55):
of thing, and you know, the just during the time
and which like we were searching for a deal. I
mean we were traveling like the flint Stones inside of
a beat up two hundred dollars station wagon with no
floorboard in the back, like we have to elevate our
feet in the air to not hit the ground, like
traveling like the Middle Passage, and like you know, just

(01:10:20):
that whole period of like will we get a deal?
Will we not get a deal? And living in poverty
and all, and like just listening to that record like man,
one day I'm gonna play music like this and front
audiences and like I don't know, like Sons of Soul
wound up being that record from me. Yeah, that was
the one for me too, yea. And I know that

(01:10:44):
your your relationship with which he really solidified with that record,
assuming that he assisted on drums on like Tony's a
long key and all that stuff. I mean the drums
are definitely boombastic and loud like that just during that
time period how are you guys uh connecting as a group, Like,

(01:11:07):
how are decisions made? How are you know? Is it
every man like gets an equal vote or that sort
of thing, or is it like you're starting to see
the the kind of uh seems starting to break. Well,
I don't think. I think we were just I think
we were like so happy to be on. I think

(01:11:29):
my brother Dwayne is more of the person who was
in search of a deal more than any of us.
He was a couple of years older. Um, but once
we got in, you know, Duwayne was this party time
and I was more in a state of mind like
we could fall off. This is not promised to us,
and uh, I was just looking at things that our lives.

(01:11:49):
I think I became pretty much the the person that
was steering the boat. But I had a wall of
people behind me that was very talented. I always felt
like if you know, you're the best person in the
room and you're in the wrong room, and um, I
had a lot of great musicians around me that could,
you know, do the things that I needed to do
to make the records that I wanted to make. Now,

(01:12:10):
did I know that people are gonna like those records? No?
I didn't have a clue about record sales or number one.
I never cared about Billboard. I never looked at bill
Board for number one record. I was really trying to
impress the people before me. I just really wanted you know,
you know, hip hop, hip hop artists. You know. I
was really big on making hip hop people like my records,

(01:12:33):
all the records like we don't like and we don't know.
I was like, oh, you're gonna like this. R and B.
I had a chip on my shoulder about that and
was my joint on that record. It was just to
break be fun. That was my one. Yeah, I was
gonna say that. Yeah, Like I was definitely anti R
and B and ninety two, Like I just thoughted was
like warded down in corner understill why And I heard

(01:12:57):
it and if you know, first I was like front
like Tony, Tony got a record like whatever, And I
heard and I was like, wait a minute, Like there's
break beats and things that I like, like if a
trap called Quest made music, this is what it would be.
And yeah, and that's that's that's because Yeah, it's like

(01:13:18):
it's like the beginning seeds of that's that's the thing
I want to ask you were you were you are
aware what the state of emergency was for the Black Band,
because technically Tony Tony Tony is probably either the last
pure soul group you know, And that's where you mentioned

(01:13:42):
Chambers Brothers, because I was trying to find a band
that was self contained, not led by someone not slying
the family stone, not jeans around the famale. But okay,
man out, Okay, So the last batch between main condition
and and Tony Tony to like you guys are are

(01:14:04):
the last it's it's it's endangered species. You were you
guys even aware that there was like you guys were
about to be a novelty. I mean ten years later,
even the idea of groups being together would be like
a thing like to to even collaborate with people in

(01:14:26):
a unit. Were even aware of the time that time
is running out for the Black Band? Um, I don't
think we were aware of it. I think we we
just we were so blinded by what happened before us,
and um we were so stuck in the past and
living in the future at the same time. Because we

(01:14:46):
loved hip hop, we love what was going on, but
we always thought we were a part of I always
thought I could be a part of it. Like when
I got to New York and I saw rock Him
walking down the street where I was sitting in a
limo or something and getting ready to do an in store,
I see Eric being rock Him with a crew with
dapper dance, sweat suit tune, and I was just sitting

(01:15:08):
there like what. So as soon as I got to
New York, man I was. I broke free to every
studio and found everything I wanted to find. Um are as,
you know, tribe and um by powers and different people,
different outboard gear for studios, different you know, needs and

(01:15:29):
different were you saying, like was the rest of your
band sort of on line with you? Like, yo, we
need to we need to sound progressive like these people.
Now it was just me. They'll they'll tell you that too.
But everybody playing a good part, like tim was Timothy Riley.
Christian Riley is like like slide on the organ on
the B three. He's a drummer, but he's a great

(01:15:54):
Oregon player. So where he was at, he wanted to
be there, you know, um where Dwyane was at, he
Dwayne was like a guy who played football his whole
life and was in shape, and then when football was over,
He's like, I'm not working out no more. So once
we got on, Dwayne was like, we are you know

(01:16:15):
that's it? And I was like, man, I don't know
if we're really. I've seen too many groups when I
go to record stores and I'm going through vinyl and
all these groups that I've seen it we don't know about.
We never heard of. I wasn't really they thought they
were on too, so I was more. I was more
like I knew it was. It was a novelty. But

(01:16:37):
just because of the tours that we had to go on,
there was no space. I remember Salt and Pepper wanted
us to. We toured MC Hammer, Candy Man, I w
A and I remember Salton Pepper was like, pickt the
Tony's off the tour. They got a band to the
set changes too long, you know what I mean. It
wasn't like being nasty towards us, but the set change

(01:16:59):
had to be. They didn't like the set change. The
only person the only reason why we stayed on that
to us because Hammer Hammer kept us on the turk.
Can I ask you all the questions since this is
a rare moment, especially with you and Mirror and Raphael
on the line because I'm translating, and I always thought

(01:17:20):
in my mind, and now that you've clarified that you
were such a hip hop head and you had to
be you had to be there. This is the pivotal
start of Mirror, right of what we would call I mean.
So I just want to stay it out loud because
the father of that, and I hate to term. I
hate to term Neil. So everybody give me to give

(01:17:44):
me the everybody hate it, But what's the replace? But
it's like, it's the shortest way to describe you. Guys.
Definitely started something new, Okay, So I'm gonna kill it.
I've grown past it. I'm not like I used to
be about the word. Let me tell you why I
say it, why I was sending it back to And
I did this album called very right. On the back

(01:18:05):
I had a schoolstone it says Neo Soul rest in peace, right,
So I was all about that. So my thing was Neil.
Like like hip hop was a fresh, great brand, a
great idea, Neil Soul was more of a budget that
kid R. Massenberg kind of came up with for Erica
Bad and everybody ever thought about it, and it was

(01:18:28):
like the way to go to a marketing meeting and
say this group was not the Temptations are the Slide
and it's like new So it's neo. So when you
go to a meeting, instead of explaining they're not gonna
sell a million, they might do anywhere from two to three,
you just say for short neo soul. It had nothing
to do about the filling in the music like hip hop.

(01:18:49):
But but you do know to the fans it actually
so it might have started that way, but then it
kind of matriculated to fans to something else, to just
something that they could say, that's what it's can I ask, right,
so what would you have? What would you have called it?
Because it's your ship, so what would you were called?
I mean it was a moment. I mean someone didn't

(01:19:15):
when I did, When I didn't answer advantage, I was,
you know, I was striking a different thing, a couple
of things that didn't really stick, but I was trying,
and I came out with gospel delic for me, for
my own gospel. Man, it's gospel delic is mean, there's
some truth to it, and there's the funking the psychedelic
in what I do so I called Mommy is a
gospel delic. There's some truth, there's some funk psychedelic, that's

(01:19:38):
what I called it. Anything but that, but we would
have been called gospel. But honestly, look, look, I understand
any group that was under it. I understand because it
was a budget and everybody was getting on. It was
a deal with money behind it, So there's nothing really
wrong with it. It's just to me, it's a whack
ass name. But it's a beautiful movie. Man, it's a

(01:20:00):
wag name. I mean, it's great. Groups came out of it,
but none of those artists. I feel like it gave
it gave everybody a clock. But in hip hop, right,
it's forever. No, it's not backpacker hip hop, that's forever.
I mean, here's the thing, Like, the reason why I

(01:20:21):
don't it's so weird, especially with neo soul, It's just
that everyone in that category was helping on making sure
that you knew they're not in that category. And then
it just became funny to me because the thing is,
I didn't know that. I thought I was the only
everybody wants to people nobody under quote ar umbrella wants

(01:20:44):
to claim it. I mean, yes, I think kidar uh,
what do you call it? U copyrighting the word? Like?
And I told him this. I was like, you ended
the genre when you made a public that you copy
wrote the word, like who who's gonna like? You just
ended your own movement. But the thing is is like
as a guy who shops at Amiba or Raspputants or

(01:21:08):
Jerry's records, you know, I want to know where's the
quickest what like fine, Like it's an identifier for me,
so I know exactly what section to go to something
by the record I want to and not have to
scrounge through thousand records. But I mean I digress, like
I definitely feel as though you guys were a part

(01:21:29):
of something. And you know this, it's not only for
this genre. I remember when Luther and Anita was scoffing
at Nelson George's description where he called it retro noeuvou.
And you know, people, it's it's just hard to categorize
something or given opinion on something until like twenty years
has passed. But you know, especially now that thirty years

(01:21:52):
has passed since that movement, it's it's and I'm just
lazy well, yeah, you know, I don't know kind of
like to say to like if you listen to so yeah, yeah.
I mean when you look at music like I look
at all music like this, if it's early country music

(01:22:14):
like blues, early Muddy Waters, and you can go you
can go back before people was making records to beat
for Hot Sunny Hawks. Before you can go back to
when it was making records in the field, in the country,
all the way to now two. Black music is one
music to me, if you have to categorize it to

(01:22:35):
make money, to put in the categorize its categories to
differentiate and make money, but really it's all one. It's
all one music. It's it's because black people are so creative,
but it's all our music and basketball. We gotta crossover.
We do all these different things so good. So that's
when you listen to music like Trapp now Trapp is trapped,

(01:22:56):
now you got Drill right, It's just it's just I
feel like we're just it's all one thing. Like when
hip hop came out, I always wanted to see hip
hop get old. I always want to see the last
like the tribe, the generation before that. I wanted to
know how they were going to react as older men
because I got a chance to see the Temptations and

(01:23:19):
the Shalamars and and the whispers get old, and how
do they always want to see how the coolest cats
in the world hip hop was the coolest. We don't
like thorn. I want to see what they were gonna
be like as older men. And it's so funny to
watch when you see like hip hop casts like talking
about trap artists. That would have been the way whispers

(01:23:41):
what I've been talking about somebody rapping, Like what the
hell are you talking about? I don't know, blah blah blah.
Now you hear artists, hip hop artists saying that about
trap artists, And it's just because now our generation is
at PTA meetings. Let me just say this too. As
a former black radio person, you should know that neo

(01:24:01):
soul to a lot of people was rebellious music, and
especially to black radio people, because this was music that
we weren't necessary allowed to play. Literally, Raphael, I planned
to tell you the story about how I got fired
for interviewing you live on the radio, and I think
that a lot of times. Yes, y'all don't know, huh.

(01:24:27):
It was my pleasure. It was. It was my pleasure.
But understand that like people fought people like myself, tim
Me Bagon and like DJ's around the country that wasn't
it was called trauma. We was fighting for this ship.
When they when they said to me, yo, I'm a
real quick rock Field. They said to me rock Fails
is doing our music conference and we want you to
interview him and tape it and we're gonna play it

(01:24:47):
back after we start playing his record. Right, But this
was during the time when you put out the record
that was kind of Stacks inspired, right, and I'm on
the hip hop right, so I'm like, this is Philadelphi. Yeah,
I mean you remember because I was drilling you about
Josh Stone and stuff. We had a good time. So

(01:25:07):
so what's funny is when they said that they was
gonna play this ship back, I was like, that's a lie,
because you're not gonna never play no songs from this
record because they don't fit our format. Right. So when
you walked into the studio live, I was like, this
is fucking Rafael Sad, the father of this fucking ship.
That is the height. That's the reason that Philadelphia is
doing what it's doing right now. How would I be
like to sit here and lie and do a fake

(01:25:29):
interview with this person. So we went up live and
a week later they was like, you disobeyed what I did,
which we told you to do. That was part of
the story. So another funny story about that record when
I went to this radio station in South Carolina and
so the radio guy at the time, he was the
regional guy, was in Atlanta, so he took me in

(01:25:49):
this radio station. So my whole radio promo was a
fake out with Colombia. It was all fake, I believe it.
But they had to take me because of the respect
for the records that I was producing. They didn't just
want to let me go, so they took me on
this fake radio run that I was doing interviews. But
nobody was at the label cared about the records. So

(01:26:10):
they did tell me. Some of the guys that Columbia
told me just get his record away because streaming was
about to happen, and they didn't. They were spending money
on records and records weren't selling, so they were confused
because like Bruce Springsteen wasn't selling, None of the records
were selling because it was streaming, right, So I get
in the crop with this guy, and he says, he said, man,

(01:26:31):
your record is actually where they spinning that what the
numbers were like was was high on the record. So
he said, he said, he said because he said, well,
they told me, he said between me Columbia told me
just to take this record out and tell him it's
it's experimental record and just play it real late at night.
So like, but the record kind of caught fire, like

(01:26:54):
love that Girl, because people was like listening to it.
And so what happened was Europe ended up calling France.
Actually France called parents called they they called uh Strainger
over in Columbia. They said, I don't know about in
the States, but this is a real record over here.
And so that's when I started playing in front of

(01:27:15):
like fifteen thousand people by myself and Europe different venues.
But yeah, the whole record was like a fake out
and end up being one of my Yeah, that's that's funny.
I remember that. Wait, all right, things are coming back
to me now that I know I'll never get to

(01:27:35):
ask you again. I gotta go back to Sons and
Soul for this one question. All right, So you worked
with a guy who I had hope for to be
the future. And it's not who you think I'm talking about.
You work with director Sangi and this is hot office

(01:27:56):
passed me by success like black videos, we've never seen
somebody with like Spike Jones is aesthetic for black videos.
But dog the Pillow video, how did Homie talk to
you all into doing that video? Naked? But that wasn't
sun That wasn't That wasn't sund and leaving. I thought

(01:28:21):
he did all three of your videos. Okay, he wouldn't
have never done that. That was who did that? I
don't know. And those the people that're standing up those
are those are not us? That's not us. On the
doubles that spinned around bloodass neck that was that wasn't
Pillow forgot. I'm like, trust me, everybody was drinking. So

(01:28:46):
my my brother, my brother's thing was this. This is
all Dwayne he was. I'm not I'm not throwing him
under the bus because he stands by it. He stands
by trust me. My brother has no regrets about nothing
he does. I love you. Try to do the video.

(01:29:08):
Oh not in the in the part when the three
dudes are standing together and they spin and then when
you watch them they spend like really like it looked
real bad TV showing the video and they clouded up
all the private areas. So that's how like it's like
my brother. So my brother walks in like we like
the red hot chili peppers in his mind, so he's like,

(01:29:30):
he like, this could be like a real like this
could be like one of those what's the what's the cartoon?
Um George Clinton the tour bus? This could be like
the Tales of the tour Bus because like you know
when they showed George Clinton, just jump out their kid, right.
So it's like my brother walked in the room. And

(01:29:51):
my brother walks in the room and goes, hey, guess what, guys,
he could be the first band into a neked video.
And I was like what So so this is what
I said. I said, Well, if Tim Tim is a square,
was square this time it's nerd church boy, church of

(01:30:11):
God in Christ, I said Tim. I said that Tim agrees,
I'll do it. It's no way in hell Tim is
agreeing on this. Right. We walk in the room and
said what do you think Tim? Tim goes, let's do it.
Ship That's how that happened. Wow, man, man, Yeah, I

(01:30:37):
had another Sons of Soul question the interlude don't be bashfood,
don't be Was that a real hold guy? Oh no, no,
we we we are. Engineer Jerry Brown took this record
out in the middle of Manhattan and gave this guy
some money and he sang that he brought it back.

(01:30:57):
I was like that ship at speaking when when you
spoke of your engineer helping you develop, were you talking
about Jerry Jerry Brown? Is he still setting up Christmas

(01:31:17):
lights in the studio? Y'all gotta know, you know, Jerry
Brown is the first cat, first black cat I've ever
heard say. Yeah, man, you just gotta find your enerjoy.
And for me, every day is Christmas and there's no
when we did what they do, it was Christmas and
we did what they do and like we did it

(01:31:38):
in May, and he had that he had your studio
looking like Christmas. And then when he was working with
Alicia Keys, same thing. I walked in and saw this
Christmas decorations. I was like, oh, raphaels Deep must be
here because it's Christmas time. And Jerry came out. What
is what is the deal with Jerry? And as obsession
with every day is Christmas to him? You know what.

(01:32:02):
I never knew that's what he was doing until you
just said it. But you're right, because because the one
thing I do remember about Jerry is this. You know,
he's still around. You know he he makes a lot
of John legends. It's funny. He makes the John Leston
Christmas legend. Like YO, did Jerry? He's like, yes, he did. Yeah.

(01:32:26):
So the funny thing about Jerry. What I remember about
Jerry the Moostes. He talks about when songs in the
Kid of Life came out and he went and he
stood in line and Tower records on the sinset this
long line and he bought that record and he came
home and Christmas Eve and he played that record, so
he has to think about Christmas. You're right, that is crazy?

(01:32:48):
Is that? I was asking? Is that the same? Is
it Ali and Jerry? Is it the same? From Jerry?
Not him? Mixed the group called Climax. He Climax back
in the day. Um used to be a stud ABC.
He worked at ABC back in the day as an engineer.
FRANTI that Jerry is Jerry Knight who Jerry Knight Jack

(01:33:11):
and Jel radio singer? Okay, I was is that the
is that the largest hit tony believe it or not,
if I had no alluders, if I had alluded as
the highest charting record. But the biggest record to me
is probably it depends when you're talking, and that's me

(01:33:33):
and you was not a that's my first solo record. Okay,
it's okay only because at x tein wouldn't let me
put my name on the record. So what really? Yeah?
So yeah, so that record was just done and my
that's that's the record that was done in Sacramento in
my mother's house, in the room on the teeth on

(01:33:55):
the teeth three, which I and I put it out.
I gave it it John and the John Singleton they Polygraham,
I shouldn't say ed, but they said I couldn't use
my arm, I couldn't use my name. So the second
record I did was asked if you was on higher
learning and they told me I couldn't use my name again,
And I told John Singleton they couldn't use a song,

(01:34:15):
and John called PolyGram and said, this record is gonna
say rod fel sadik um. So the first my first
solo record would have been just me and you. And
the funny thing about it is Uh. That's when I
first figured out I had this pass called Jocko on
the T three, I was like, I called my godfather
James Levi. I used to play for the drummer for

(01:34:36):
with Herbie head Uh the head Hunters, and I called
him almost like who's that? Gave me a ride home
and it took his bass album played for me when
I was like fifteen. He was like Joao Jaco Jacko
played for me and my mom. He so, I'm in
velvet here in Oakland, James Levi is my godfather. Paul

(01:34:59):
Jackson all those the whispers used to come and watch
his plague and this band I was called tick Band.
And so I'm at the house one day and James go, hey, man,
give him a ride home and talk to him and
open up his heads. We got this four fifth y
s L convertibly drive. He stopped buying phone booth, get
on the phone and they take me about ten moles
to my house. He pulls his base out, he gets
on the ports. He plays for me and my mom

(01:35:20):
for like thirty minutes and talk to me and my mom,
which my mom don't know. My mom wouldn't know who
anybody is in R and b R nobody so Jazz,
you don't even know that. So when I and then
he leaves, and then I'm in my house making this record.
When I made that record years later, and then once
I make the record years later, I called, I said,

(01:35:42):
I've seen this, passee Jocko. Now I knew all about Jocko.
I'm like I called James, I said, who was that
to gave me a ride home? Without blinking? He goes,
what do you think it was? With Jocko? Stories? Oh? God, man,
you know how many other random stories do you have
like that? M Ladies and gentlemen. I know you hate

(01:36:03):
when my voice comes on and tells you you gotta
come back next week. But you know good and well
that we weren't going to give you the whole Angelotta
this one episode. So make sure you come back next
week when Rathiolsa Dick talks to you know, Layah Sugar,
Steve and Fon Tikolo and pay filled myself about his

(01:36:24):
solo work, about touring, about songwriting, about movie scoring, about bacon,
yes Bacon, and he drops a really awesome exclusive Jim,
So next week quest Love Supreme, I will see you
guys there much Love Supreme is a production of I

(01:36:51):
Heart Cupredio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Poe Podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.

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