Rick Rubin

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Questlove Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. Ladies
and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of courts Love Supreme.
My name is cost Love. We're here today with Layah Sugar,
Steve Unpaid, Bill and vun tigelow Um. Hello. I will

(00:23):
say that our guest today is world renowned h He's
a world renowned reducer. Those are his words, not my words,
world renowned reducer. Um from establishing one of the greatest
hip hop labels in history, def champ Uh to working
with all the greats from Red Out, Chili Pepper, Tom Petty,

(00:43):
There's Slayer, there's the Cult, There's Kanye West, There's Dixie Chicks,
There's Mick Jagger, There's Neil Diamond, there's uh the Roots.
I'm putting it back there anyway. Please welcome the guru
of music to Quest Love Supreme, the Normal, Rick Ruby.
Thank you for doing our show today. Finally, where are you?

(01:07):
Where are you currently right now? Rick? I am right
now in Kauai on lockdown. Is that's a place to
be on lockdown? Do you consider is that home for you?
Or is it just like Okay, if I have to
be on lockdown, I'd rather be in this particular environment.
We mainly live in Malibu and spend some time here,

(01:28):
usually in the winter, and this year the winter extended
because of the lockdown, so it seemed like a better
place to be on lockdown. Okay, are you able to
operate under your sort of your creative guys at least
in in Kauai or are always toys in l A

(01:49):
toys or in l A. But we have a set
up here that's working working well. You have you have
an extensive history, So I was debating with myself whether
or not to do the normal cron logical thing or
should we just go kama kaze because there's so many
stories I want to learn about your production. But I
do want to know about your introduction to music. First

(02:10):
of all, where were you born? Long Beach, Long Island?
Long Beach, Long Island? Is that where you're born on?
Pay bill? No, I was just born on Long Island.
Shout out to Long Island. Okay, alright, Birds of a Feather,
that's cool. What was your the very first record that
you purchased? I remember buying. I don't remember what was
the first one, but I remember the experience of buying

(02:33):
seven inches. Um, I can remember shopping for forty five
in Times Square store in Oceanside and uh Snoopy versus
the Red Baron may have been one of them, but
I don't I don't remember exactly what the record was.
What was What was the moment that you realize that, okay, uh,

(02:54):
I'd like a space in the music world, or that's
what I want to do. I don't know that I
ever had that feeling. I mean, I knew that I
loved it, and I knew that it would be a
huge part of my life, but I never thought it
would be my job. I didn't think that was I
didn't think that was a realistic possibility. I was going

(03:15):
to have a real job and that would support my music,
have it. What were you planning on becoming? I was
on track. My parents had me on a track to
be a lawyer. That would have been there there wish,
their wish would have either been a doctor or a lawyer,
and I was always afraid of blood. I don't know.
And then I thought, oh, well, there are lawyers involved

(03:37):
in the music industry, so maybe I could be involved
in that way because I'd have to have a job.
But my real love is music. But I didn't know
anyone who did music as a job. I didn't think
that was a real thing. What were your parents? My
dad was a businessman, store owner, my mom was a housewife.
Is Rick Rubin your birth name? Frederick J. Ruben is

(03:58):
the name I was born with, but I was called
Grick from the time I was a kid, no one,
No one ever called me anything else. Yeah, you would
have been attorney at law. Yeah, that's why that's a
that's a lawyer's name. Okay, I get it. I know.
There's there's a story that I heard about once performing
at CV Gebs and it was less than desirable, and

(04:19):
I believe the end result was your father coming down
from Long Island, but he was dressed as a cop.
Did I make up that story in my mind or something?
I don't remember ever telling that story, but the story
is around and it may be rooted in something that
actually happened. I have a vague memory of it, but
I don't remember. I can't I can't remember telling the story,

(04:41):
but I think it might happened. I think. I think
the story that I heard was that you were in
a band called the Pricks. I believe, and either it's
kind of like you know a modern show time at
the Apollo story where the opening actor or another act
brings all their fans down. They were heckling you guys.
You guys only did like two songs, and then to

(05:05):
give revenge on the other band, your dad came down
dressed as a cop, trying to shut the show down
or something like that. Nothing, nothing like that happened. That
was Yeah, that's story. I didn't know that was an
urban legend or for real, that's that's an urban legend.
But in the sort of theatrical punk rock pandemonium of

(05:28):
making a show more exciting, it is possible that my
dad dressed as a cop to stop the show, our show,
not to affect anyone else because it would have. It
just created a something. I can remember the time we
did a show where we worked it out for the sprinkler,
the fire sprinklers to go off during the show and

(05:48):
just create a general sense of pandemonium in the room.
And what were you were you? Um, what instrument did
you play in the band? Guitar? Are you guitars? Okay,
I did, I was not. I wouldn't say it was
a guitarist, but I played the guitar. You played the
guitar being being as that we rarely get guests on
the show that we're really really of the age, and

(06:10):
I mean like in their in their early twenties at
least in New York City. Much as much as made
about the legend of of what night nightlife culture was
in New York City and because you had like one
ft playing in cb GBS, I don't know about your
history of dance arria or those hip hop clubs at

(06:30):
the time, but he just briefly described what the environment
was like in the first half of the eighties as
far as club life is concerned, Like, do you see
it with fond memories? Now? Was it the best time ever?
Are you one of those people that are like, oh man,
New York in the early eighties, there's nothing like it ever,
like these romanticized feelings about it. Yes, it was an

(06:52):
incredible time and we would go out every night and uh,
there was very little hip hop at that time. You
couldn't really see hip hop. You can only see hip
hop one night a week. But we went out every
night and you would see, um, there was a thriving
uh dance music scene that would have had like groups

(07:15):
like Liquid Liquid, and E. S G. And Conk. You
got to see them in person all everybody I saw.
What were they like? Incredible? Like E. S G. What
were they like? It was just all around the base.
It was sort of like a If you think about
it looking back, it would be you'd say, it was
a pretty boring show. But the group was incredible. But

(07:36):
it wasn't like a wasn't a show like putting on
a show. It was like people in a band standing
on stage and playing their songs. So it wasn't theatrical
in any way. E. S. G. As I recall, I
think I saw them play at Dance Teria if I
remember correctly, Wow. But you we would go like if

(07:56):
a band was playing at Irving Plaza, we'd go to
Irving Plaza. For a band playing at the Mud Club,
we'd go to the Mud Club. Maxis, Kansas City. I
caught the tail end of Maxis Kansas City. I saw
James White and the Blacks play there. I saw Devo
play there. I saw Wayne County maybe Jane County at

(08:17):
that time. I saw so many great shows. I saw
the Bad Brains play at CBGBs. I saw the Bad
Blains Brains play at Irving Plaza. I saw a minor
Threat play at Irving Plaza. I saw the Cramps, which
was my very first technically punk rock show at Irving Plaza,
and then there'd be a gig at the Garden. I

(08:38):
remember seeing David Bowie at Madison Square Garden in the
same night seeing the Bad Brains after at CBGBs. That
would be a typical it was. It was an incredible
time to be a fan of music, and there was
both this live performance scene of music, and then there

(08:58):
was also this incredible ants music scene with places like
Danceteria than Area Um. The garage was still going on,
so really you could you could get very different experiences,
even on the same night, going from club to club.
And then when hip hop started bubbling, the only place

(09:19):
you could really see it downtown was at the Grille,
which was reggae club on Avenue A. I believe I
remember correctly. I think it was either sadly first it
was down a flight of stairs. Is it still there, Yeah,
it's still there, but it's open shadow what shadow of

(09:43):
what it used to be. But that's the place that
I used to go to see Jazzy j and uh Africa,
Islam and Busy Be and Treacherous three and everybody played there,
and it was one night a week Tuesday, KLB Productions,
Cool Lady Blue, And then when it got big, after
it got big, then they moved it to the Roxy

(10:06):
and that was one night a week th Rocks. I
went to the Roxy the first night ever that it
was hip hop, and it was this giant roller rink
with maybe I don't know, there were maybe fifty of
us there for the first night, and then it ended
up just watching it grow every week and get bigger
and bigger and bigger until it it became what it became.
You know. So I know about your dorm being def

(10:30):
Jam's headquarters, but what was your major at n y
U when you were attending. I started as a philosophy major,
and after two years I switched to film and television because,
as I said, I was planning on going to law school.
You don't need a particular undergrad the degree you have
undergraduate degree doesn't matter to get into law school. And

(10:51):
most of my friends that I liked hanging out with
were in film school and that just seemed more fun
than um than the liberal arts side that I was
I started on. So I just switched over since it
didn't matter what year was def Jam as a punk
label started first. Wait year eighty three eight four or

(11:13):
something like that, What were the who were the artist
on the label? At the time, the only records that
I made of my own band, all there was was
hose h O s C. And there was a twelve
inch and a seven inch, a twelve inch EP and
a seven inch. That's all there was. And then I

(11:34):
made my first hip hop record, which was It's Yours,
which and I'll tell you the story of how that
came about because it's interesting if you want again, if
you want to hear it. Yes, yes, we're rabbit Holes Central,
We're waiting. My favorite group at the time were The
Treacherous Three. And I didn't know anything at all about
the record business. I didn't know that there were I

(11:56):
didn't know what a producer did. I didn't know that
there were record company is. I didn't know that people
had contracts. I literally knew nothing other than I love
music more than anything. I read everything I could read
about music. I read even Billboard, which was a weird
thing for a kid to read when I was even
in you know, sixth grade, seventh grade. I would read
Billboard just because there might be a little story about

(12:19):
an artist I liked, and it never made like I
was never really interested in what it said. But I
just wanted to learn anything that was to learn about
anyone that I liked in music, So if I saw
their name in an article, I had to read it.
I reached out to After the show at the Grille,
I reached out to um Kumodi. Kumodi was my favorite

(12:42):
m C. And I gave him my number and I said,
let's get together and and chat. Now, Kumodi was going
to school on Long Island, so we're all like college
age at this time. And then Kumo d came to
visit me at the dorm. That was my first attempt
at being involved in this thing that I loved, and

(13:03):
I said they had been making records on Enjoy Records,
which I loved, and then they made their first thing.
The first thing that came out, if I remember correctly,
I'm not sure the timing of this, but I heard
a treacherous three song that I thought wasn't as good
as the all the ones that I liked. Was it?
Yes we Can Can on sugar Hill? Might have been

(13:24):
I didn't like that. Yeah, so I might have been.
So as a fan, I said, let's get together. I
just want to talk to you about this music. You know,
I'm I'm a fan. I want to talk to you.
And then I said, and again I was. I had
great confidence in my taste, just because I really you know,

(13:45):
I truly felt it with all of my heart. And
this was at a time when not a lot of
people were listening to this music. It was a tiny
underground scene at the time. You have to keep in
mind this is there were the first round of deaf
jam records. We might have pressed up, you know, three
thousand copies. You know, that might be the starting run

(14:07):
of a record. So that's how big the world of
hip hop was at that time. By this point, Uh,
is this pre or post? It's yours? Like, what was
this about you that he's leading up? This is leading
up to it's there's no I've done nothing. Oh so
he just he just befriended you on trust, not knowing
anything about your No, he didn't even befriend me on trust.

(14:30):
He's just like somebody cares in a time when nobody caress.
You understand, it was a tiny little world that nobody
was interested in I was interested. I could speak about
it with passion because I had that passion. So there
weren't that many heads at that moment in time. So

(14:50):
I get together with Cool MOODI and I say, okay,
the records you made on enjoy A great. Now there's
this new thing. It's not as good as the rest.
Let's figure out together. I'm your fan. I don't want
it to go that way. I don't want it to
get worse. Let's figure out how to make it get better.
And let's figure out. I swear it's true. Let's figure

(15:12):
out how to do this. And he said, I would
love to do this, but I can't do this. We're
signed to sugar Hill. I didn't Again, I had no idea.
I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a producer was.
I didn't know what that There were contracts, but he said,
we're signed to sugar Hill, but you should talk to
Special K. He's in the group, and he writes he
might have an idea. So he introduced me to Special K.

(15:34):
Got together a Special K, and Special K said, okay,
I like the idea. And I was already programming beats,
so I played him some beats on my oh eight.
Special K said, Okay, I wrote, I just wrote this
record called It's Yours. I can't do it because I'm
signed to sugar Hill, but Ti Lara can do it.

(15:55):
He's where we're related. And that's the way it really happened.
I me wanting to work with Treacherous three, them saying
me not knowing, I me not knowing anything about the business,
and then basically saying, this is the guy who can
do the song. And Special K wrote the lyrics. It was.
It was essentially, uh like a a Special K solo record.

(16:18):
Lyrically what and even lyrically that was really ahead of
his time even back then. It was incredible. The story,
I don't know that special It's yours. Wait, Rick, are
you even familiar about the Tee La Rock situation right now?

(16:42):
I've heard a little bit recently. Don't know what's going on. Then, okay,
I won't do anything. I won't do any justice to
the story. I'll just say that if you google Tela Rock.
GQ magazine. GQ magazine, damn near gave Tela Rock a

(17:02):
seven page feature story, long story short. I meet this woman,
this like uh this high society hoity toity, upscale woman
from like the West Side, and she comes to me
and says, hey, I'm doing thing finger like the woman
carry the woman in wild style like totally a fish
out of water, or a white woman comes to me

(17:24):
and says, hey, I'm doing a biopic. Or rapper Tela
Rock and already I'm turned. I'm like, okay, he's trying
to scam you, Like, okay, whatever, biopick. I'm like, what
is it about Titla Rock that deserves a biopic? Three
years later, there's a story in GQ magazine that I
didn't know which basically, he went into a coma and

(17:47):
because he had no I D or anything on him,
think of like Michael Jackson's character on The Simpsons. He
winds up in uh, this old folks home in the Bronx.
They don't know who he is, or he doesn't know
who he is, knows nothing. I think about. In months
or so, his family finally locates him, but he's comfortable

(18:07):
with his life at this old folks home and now
they have to explain to him who he was. You
were once you were the first Rapper's brutal attack A
mirror too that happened now. But the headline is the
man who forgot he was a rap ledger, which is
pretty great. But I don't know how he got into
that coma, but I do know that he was in

(18:28):
a coma and he didn't know who or what he was,
and he slowly had to be taught everything about himself.
But now he just has this new life in as
the young guy, as the young stud and a nursing
home and he likes his life there. And but it's
they say that other residents are mostly elderly Jewish and

(18:50):
Yiddish speakers, so that must be. Yeah, like the word
about like who's this black guy in our are are missing?
They're like, oh, he was once a rapper on Russell
Simmons label like that. So it's the craziest story you
ever heard. But it's yeah, I was forward once I've
seen it. Now now I wish I wouldn't dismissed that woman,
like that movie has to be made. That sounds right, Yeah,

(19:13):
that's him, now, Yeah, it's a crazy movie. And that
it looks exactly the same. By the way, it's exactly
what you looked like then. How old were you when
you did that record? Shit? Maybe maybe nineteen, I don't know, Yeah,
and that was just you on the M on the
eight oway and then what did y'all track it on?
If you remember? We tracked it this There was a

(19:34):
studio that advertised in the Village Voice called power Play
in Long Island City, which was the cheapest studio you
could go into, and we recorded it. I recorded my
punk rock band there before, and then we recorded that
it's yours there and M recorded it, you know, in
a couple of hours, pretty reading quick. Another piece the

(19:57):
reason jazz j the reasons steel rock and jazz j.
A was again as a fan of hip hop, as
someone going to the to the club. The whole idea
always of the records that I made were that the
energy in the club was a very specific thing and
the records that were coming out didn't sound like what
the club sounded like. And as a fan now had

(20:20):
had the records sounded the same, I don't know that
I would have ever made a hip hop record at all,
because it was more just I want to hear this.
I want to hear what I'm hearing at the club,
but nobody's making that record, so I made it to
be able to hear it, but that's all it was.
It wasn't There was no uh. I had no expectation

(20:42):
that anybody else would like it or that it would
have any success. What it was never about, you know,
you could never assume that in this little world that
it was that we were coming from. It's like anyone
who was making music at that time clearly did it
out of the love of it, because it was no upside. Yeah,
there was no industry that was build. What was the

(21:04):
fundamental difference between the club and the and the record?
What were you trying to capture? Was it just the
you know? Okay, because even on the acapella version of
that record. In my mind, there's a million people in
the room, do it like because you're the kyd of
the ho ho like that that that sort of thing,

(21:24):
like the people in the background. How many people were
in the room when that those party noises were made?
Four or five? Five or six of us? Two times?
Maybe maybe three? Was that Rock one of those people? Absolutely? Okay? Okay?
Always at yeah, me Ad Rock, probably Special k Jazzy

(21:47):
J who everybody who was in this hid, maybe even
the engineer of the session, like any people we had
on hand to get the the that party vibe. So okay,
so let me explain how I heard what I heard
different about the club versus the records and I and
a lot of this has to do with me not

(22:10):
knowing anything the way that rap records had been made
up until that point. Those records were made by people
who had made other records. So at the time, if
you were going to make a club record, it would
be like like Heartbeat, it would be a band. It

(22:34):
would be a band record with uh woman singing R
and B M that would be the club record. And
then when the people who didn't understand hip hop but
understood making club records saw this new thing, rap music,
they thought, Okay, we'll do the band doing the R

(22:58):
and B song and we'll have the guy rap on
it instead of having the girls sing on it. And
that's what hip hop records sounded like. But that's not
what the clubs sounded like. The club sounded like DJ culture,
drum machines. Maybe not so many drum machines, but some
at that point more DJ culture. It was really about

(23:20):
the DJ cutting it up. So if you went to
see Uh, if you went to see the Trecher Street Live,
it wasn't a band playing their song like it was
on even the Enjoy records. It was the DJ cutting
up the records with the m cs. And that's what
that's how I understood hip hop was this homemade music

(23:44):
with rapping so that so that's and that's why Jazzy
why it was important for me, Like I would never
want to sign I would never think of doing uh
a Tila rock record without having a DJ associated with it,
because it's like what made it hip hop was the
two of them. It was the band, you know, together

(24:08):
they were the Beatles, but by himself it was just
to say it was another singer, you know, it was
Frank Sinatra. It's it's different. So I saw it as
a group and the music was an important part of that.
For me, the DJ culture was as important as the
MC always it was always both. So that's and then

(24:29):
I and Jazz J was my favorite DJ, and I
asked him if he would be on the record and
joined the group with Special K. That's how that's how
it happened. Wow, was it hard to because you know
the stories that I've heard from Russell's reaction to the
record was that it was hard to believe that this
white boy made such a definitive black album. So how

(24:53):
how how hard was it to convince people that you're
the guy that made it's yours? Like? Was it hard sell?
Or it was? The whole thing was so strange, like
it was the record was already a weird record. Yes,
you Russell always referred to it as more black than
anything else, But to me, it was just more representative

(25:14):
of the club, you know, it was more like it
was like a documentary of what I experienced going to
the club. All right, So since we're talking about your
eight oh eight period, and I guess our listeners, it
should be noted that, really, I mean, yes, I know
that there's a tie between like you and Arthur Baker.

(25:34):
That Telo Rock single was like sort of a cross
between def Jim and it wasn't start uh whatever party time,
Party Time? Wasn't that one of the author Baker's offspring
at the way, I could tell you how that happened
as well, which was I was going to put it
out independently myself, the way I put out my punk

(25:56):
rock records with nine nine Records, which is a record
store are really cool independent record store on Google Street
g S g and they put out Bush Tetras and
and and Liquid Liquid. They put out the record that
the message was based on. Actually, yeah, I have those records.

(26:16):
So the guy who ran that record store was sort
of my mentor in that he walked me through the process.
He's like, Okay, here's a list of studios you could
go to. Here's a place you could have the vinyl press.
Here's the place you can have the labels made. The
labels were made in Brooklyn, the vinyl was pressed in
I think Long Island City, the covers were printed in Canada.

(26:38):
And he kind of walked me through, here's people who
could do mastering for you, and he just walked me
through how to do it because I didn't know anything.
As I said, So I did that first for my
punk rock records and I was about to do that
with It's yours when Jazz he called me because they
were making some movie that Arthur Baker was involved in.
I don't know what it was. I can't remember what

(26:58):
it was street and he said, Hey, just met this
guy Arthur Baker. He wants to hear our record. He's
got a label, maybe he can help us. And then
I went up and I met Arthur Baker at Shakedown Studio,
which is where we ended up doing a lot of
work in the future as well mixing. I think we
mixed half of License to Ill there and m c
A from the BC Boys worked there. He worked as

(27:20):
a as like a tape op assistant there, assistant engineer.
So I went up. I met Arthur for the first
time and he was already, you know, like a successful
person in the music business. And um again, I'm still
this kid in school playing the song. He's like, this
is great. His main label was called street Wise street Wise,

(27:43):
and he said, and put out and it really yeah,
it doesn't really fit street Wise, but we could put
it on Party Time, which is like a sub label.
Said fine, and he bought the record to put out
and I said, the only thing is it has to
have the deaf Jam logo on it. Um, even though
it came over, I drew that looking, you drew that looking.
I drew the Yeah, I did. My aunt Carol worked

(28:07):
at Estate Lauder in the creative creative services department, and
I would hang out there a lot, and I used
press type and I made it on a day that
either they were closed or just when nobody was around
at one of the designers tables. UM, just experimenting with
different things. And the reason that the reason it has

(28:27):
the big DJ was to make that point of like
the this is DJ culture. So I thought having the
big DJ in the logo quietly told the story of
what the label was about. Was that a one thing
Willie drawing? Or was that like, okay, on the fifth one,
I liked this one. I tried a lot of things.

(28:48):
I mean I tried a lot of things, but it
happened pretty quick. It came in and you know, came
in a day. I drew it a bunch of like
upper case lower case what looks good and moving it
around and then still have your sketches of it? Or
are they long gonging? So I probably long gone it.
I don't. It's possible that they exist because I had
a lot of stuff at my parents house and then

(29:10):
some of that stuff is in ah in storage somewhere,
but I've never looked at it. I was gonna ask
what does it feel? Because I've heard a mirror and
and Tariq say that sometimes they went on def jam
just because they wanted to be able to have that
logo with their name just gotta feel crazy just for
my drawing. Yeah, like you know, I in class, I

(29:32):
draw that logo on imaginary Uh, roots albums that didn't
exist yet, like hanging that ship on my wall. I
probably did exactly the same thing, and then it ended
up becoming you know, they weren't roots albums, but they
were whatever it was. It was just like playing with
how do we say that, what's the name gonna be?

(29:53):
What's it gonna look like? How does how does it work?
In eighty three eighty four? How expensive are eight o
eight drum machines? I don't know, something that you casually
come across. It's something that I luckily came across because
there was a guy in my dorm room who was
in an alternative rock band called the Speedies, and he

(30:14):
had that machine and he lent he lent me the
eight o eight drum machine. That's how I came across it.
So were you able to program and save beats or
is it just like you turn on you show what
you could do in print it? Uh, you could make
twenty or so pre program beats. So how long is

(30:35):
the conversation with Russell Simmons before you realize that you're
going to go into partnership with him and start the label. Officially.
I met Russell at a party for a graffiti rock
that that TV where Treacher's Three and and Render Yeah,
And I went there, you know, hoping that Treacher's Three

(30:56):
would be there because they were, you know, my favorite group.
And this is like that party. This was an after party,
and someone introduced me to Russell and I told him
I made It's yours and he couldn't believe it. It's
just like, no way, It's like you're white, you didn't
make that record. And again, but but you have to

(31:17):
understand that were they were really were well. Tom Silverman
was involved in hip hop. He was the only other
white person I would say that that I knew who
had any relationship to hip hop at that time. But
he wasn't making beats. He was. He was really helpful.
He was really helpful to us, like he was someone
another Like I had these great mentors. I had the
guy at nine nine Records, ed ed Billman. His name

(31:40):
was and Um and I had to Tommy and I
would call Tom's just like, hey, what do I do?
Monica Lynch who worked with Tommy, like it's like what
do we do? How do how do it? What's the
next step? And I can remember his story. I don't
think I've ever told Anyone's interesting why I was excited
about having Russell as a part. Now I was walking

(32:02):
on in front of the dorm, across the street from
the dorm, turning the corner I ran into and I
don't even know. This is strange because I don't know
how I knew who he was. But there was a
writer for the Village Voice named Aaron Fuchs. He was
he was a writer. But listen, let me let me

(32:25):
tell you, let me tell you the story. So again,
it's amazing the fact that I even I don't know
how I knew who he was or how it worked
out that I that I. But I literally went up
to him on the street and said, hey, I made
this record, and what do I have to do to
get people to hear it? Like how do I do this?
And this was it's yours. I don't even think I
had the I was just more of a conversations like

(32:47):
how does it work? How does this work? So now
I'm at the stage where because I was always comfortable
asking questions, you know, I would if someone had information
that I needed. I was. I felt comfortable asking, and
sometimes they would help and sometimes they wouldn't. So I
thought he was someone who might be able to help.
And I just said, you know, what's the next step.
How do I get people to hear this thing? And

(33:09):
he said, you need promotion and you can't do it.
And he said the only person who knows how to
do promotion for hip hop records is Russell Simmons, and
Russell Simmons won't do anything for anyone except his brother Run.
He works with a lot of artists. But he said,
unless your Run, he won't promote your records. So it's like, Okay,

(33:33):
I'm thinking, maybe someday I'll meet this guy Rustling. At
least he'll tell me what he does, even if he
won't do it. Um, just in hopes of getting the
word out, I gotta get to the bottom of the story. Now.
If he was a writer for the Village Voice, and
he too was you know, a hopeful record record mogul.

(33:54):
Yet you know the story and the fable of of
Aaron is that he would go hard in the paint
ensuing any product on deaf Jam that contains any of
the samples that he owned. I would say even beyond
that is that if he knew any song had the
potential to be sampled, he'd try to buy up the
right so that he could see whoever sampled it. Well, yeah,

(34:15):
that too. But I'm almost feeling like maybe he has
a personal beef with Russell that none of us are
aware of, because there are other samples that he could
have went after that he never did. But if it
was on Deaf Jam, it's like like Goodfellas, fuck you
pay me and always wanted to know if that was

(34:36):
if there was like a burnt bridge, and it's sort
of like, okay, well I'm gonna get you. When he
told when he told me about Russell, he was not
positive about him. It was not a positive conversation, but
it was just this, it was a piece of information
that was helpful. There. There's an article that or a

(34:59):
block that Harry Allen once wrote in in honor of
your early production methods, in which you know, it's noted
that you have the loudest eight oh eight sounds, the
loudest scratches, like your scratches on going back to Cali,
Like it's just louder than everything. So even like what's

(35:20):
your engineering process or just your whole theory on pushing
it to the limit. Um, there is none. I will say,
I like, if you're gonna put something in there, I
want to be able to hear it, Like I want
the idea of having scratching as this sort of background
element that's going on all the time is not so

(35:42):
interesting to me. It's like, if it's gonna be there,
it should be only exactly when it needs to be there,
and it should be crazy loud, because in some ways
it's like it's like lead guitar, you know, it's uh,
it's a punctuation moment. It's not a background sound. And
as a rule, I'm not so into background sounds. You know.

(36:03):
It's more about having the least amount of stuff going on,
creating space where each thing that you hear, hopefully very
few of them sound as clear and have as much
personality as possible. And as soon as you start blanketing sounds,
all of each of those sounds gets diminished. And I

(36:25):
can hear that in your I can really hear that
in your rock production predicularve Uh, particularly on Californiation, which
is probably my favorite Rick Rubin produced album. But but
now I love that recommend Like when I preserted it
was just I was taken aback by just how the
way you track Anthony's vocals, Like it sounded almost like

(36:45):
to the edge of the storation but not quite and
it just had that kind of grid on it and
it was just really in your face. And I love
that as one on that one. So you were you
were about to tell the Rock the bell story. I think, yeah,
I'll tell you what I remember, but but I don't
remember the Bob James record ever being in the conversation.

(37:07):
It may have been, it may have been something that
l had been thinking and wanting to do. Okay, okay,
but I don't remember it. I don't remember talking about it. Yeah,
I was gonna say, it's even possible that when it
was time to record it, that he suggested it. And
it is possible that we were already working on the
run DMC the Peter Piper song. It is possible. What

(37:31):
was your one of the one of the factors that
you also used in your early production, uh, was the
sound of Go Go and Rock the bells and then
She's crafty um And also you know, I'll say that
one of the things I've done in the Quarantine Punishment
is practically purchased every Go Go album made available, and

(37:56):
nothing I hate. And I know a lot of it
has to do with either the studios that they record in,
either it's too clean or it's too amateurish. But Sardines,
to me, is probably the best. Yes, Sardines is probably
the best produced Go Go record, probably second to Pump

(38:19):
Me Up. So, first of all, Sardines is such a
stripped down song. How did you record Junkyards? Drop the bombs?
Incredible too? Okay, I'll say early early trump of early
trumpell funk. Yes, they're they're, they're, they're mixing was immaculate.
But um, what was the process in recording the Junkyard band?

(38:41):
And why didn't you press on further with them? Okay,
let me. I'm gonna just talk for a second about
I agree with you. The only the only Go Go
records I like, our old Trouble Funk records other than Sardines,
which I think was good. And I want to talk
about that a little bit because what you're describing is

(39:04):
exactly the way I felt about hip hop. Where you
could buy in those days, the early days of hip
hop I could buy a twelve inch or two every week,
that's all that would come out, that would be hip hop,
and none of them did for me what the Trouble
Funk records did. As it relates to Go Go, do
you know what I'm saying, it's it's like the the

(39:27):
hip hop records were like the bad Go Go records.
It's the same. It's the same in any genre. It's like,
it's not about the genre, it's the way the records
are made. And in some ways I felt like Go
Go was gonna be the next hip hop I usually
believe that was gonna happen, But they didn't make the
right records. They sounded they watered down what Go Go was. Yeah,

(39:53):
they're like the records on Island. Island signed all the bands,
and those records are terrible. Do you think that's because
it's kind of designed for it to be a live
situation more than a record at the end of the day,
like a studio album. I just think that the wrong
people were helping make the music. The wrong people were

(40:15):
involved on the recording side. Yes, I don't. I don't
like how half the Google records are engineered. Not I mean,
I love rare essence, more than any band on earth.
But it just frustrates me that the energy and the
engineering of when I hear them live, or even I

(40:38):
hear like some of their live mixtapes, that's not captured
on a studio cut from me, That's what I'm saying.
And so why was Sardines and the Word just a
one off twelve in? Was there ever a conversation about
recording Junkyard as a band or I mean as a

(40:58):
band as a full album? I don't. I don't really remember,
and I think not long after I ended up leaving
Death Jam, So it may have been that it was
just like towards the end of the time that I
was doing stuff with Death Jam and then just stopped.
But I don't remember. I don't remember there being First
of all, nobody particularly cared about it, like we liked it,

(41:20):
but it's not like there was any demand for the
Junkyard band. As crazy as that sounds, I loved him.
I was told to ask you about the making of
Crush Groove the song? What tell me the story the
making of Crush Groove the song? What's I was thinking,

(41:42):
It's funny that this has been I couldn't. I didn't
remember what song that was there. I had a memory
that we did a song with Rundy m C and
other artists, and I remember the conversation in the studio
because it was heated and particularly on my as it
related to me, like I was very unhappy with what

(42:03):
was going on, and I thought it for some reason,
I thought it was a Christmas song, but have come
to realize it's actually that Crush Groove song and um,
and I could never find it anywhere because it's listed
as the Crush Groove All Stars. So so it's not
like if you're looking back at run DMC songs that
comes up right. So I haven't heard it in a
long time, but I had this vague memory. It's like

(42:25):
we did this song, and I remember there was a
little bit of an argument in the studio, and what
the argument was was, if you listen to the track,
should we play it because it'll it'll or at least
play some of it. You want to play a little
bit of it? The track? Who are the who? The
who are the other artists on it? Do you remember? Okay,

(42:47):
the movie people wanted a song for the movie. They
got the Fat Boys Sheila E and Curtis Blow on
this track. That sounded like a track that would fit
and maybe any one of the three of their albums,
maybe she'll less. But it sounded most like a Fat
Boys record or a Curtis like a fat Boy Curtis

(43:09):
blow record. Yeah, it sounds like a fat Word Curtis
blow record. So when we got to the studio, okay,
do you want to play it? Man by Love? Then
by Love that. I think I was five when this

(43:40):
came out. I love this fucking song. Now, well, okay,

(44:04):
so what's what's When we got to the studio, the
mission was, we're doing this song for the movie. They
provided us this song. The other mcs ready on it,
and now I'm there as Run DMCs producer, and they're
supposed to get on this on this track, and and
it sounded only like the beginning of the song, didn't
sound like the Run DMC part. And I said, there's

(44:25):
no way Run DMC could be on this. They cannot
be on this. It's like, this sounds like a Fat
Boys record. This sounds like a Curtis blow record. That's
not a Run DMC record. I love Run DMC. This
is something else. And and then I said, well, the
only way we could have run DMC on this would
be if we make our own track and drop it

(44:47):
in in the middle where it could sound like this
is a run DMC song. And that's It's how that
ended up. And I was the only one who cared.
Nobody else cared. No. But you know it would have
just been like Larry, Larry and Curtis weren't offended. I
don't even know. I didn't even know who produced it. Yeah,
I didn't know that. I do remember Curtis was piste

(45:10):
off after saying how come I can't be over the
part that runs on? Like? How come he couldn't write
break down? The breakdown? Can you talk about? You know,
there's there's producer as as song clinician and arranger and
and music person, and there's something about producer as a

(45:30):
social psychologist. And I feel like your your life and
correct me if I'm wrong. It's sort of this weird
thing that rides between them and the great producers that
I know run this line that I don't fully understand
how to run. And I feel like you've mastered it
and and and in your career have sort of defined
what a producer is and so there are some producers

(45:52):
that are that are beat makers, there are some producers
that are songwriters. You're able to encompass all of them,
and not only in one particular genre of but about
four or five. So like, I don't know. I mean,
you call yourself a reducer, and I get that sort
of play on words, but like, I don't know, what
what what is it? What is it about all of
that that makes it work, that makes that makes you

(46:13):
enjoy what you do as well? Because that, to me
is fascinating. I'll say that I think it always changes.
At the time that I was more of a beat
making producer, which are the days we're talking about now,
I was not I was not good at the psychology
part and the collaborating I was not good. I was

(46:34):
much more of a I know what's good and you're
going to do it my way, probably for my hip
hop early hip hop days. And then as I started
working with more rock bands, I started understanding more the
dynamics of working with a group of people. And now
the most interesting thing for me when I worked with

(46:55):
an artist is I can clearly point out where I
think the strengths and weaknesses are but I don't feel
like it's my responsibility to solve the weaknesses. All I
have to do is point out, like this section here
isn't as good as it could be. What can we
do to make it better? Whereas in the old days,

(47:17):
I'd say this section isn't as good and this is
what we're gonna do. Now it's this part isn't as good.
How do you guys suggest we fix it? And all
of that. It's all based on your opinion, right, I
mean like it's it's all how is this opinion? Everything
everything has to do with opinion. The whole job, the
whole job of doing this is pure opinion. Yeah. Okay,

(47:43):
So before before I get to the Beastie Boys, well,
Unpaid Bill sort of sorry enemy to divert but because
actually my next question leads to what you were headed
with M pay Bill, which is basically, whenever you show
up and whenever you show up in the credits, two
things are bound to happen, and that is you're going

(48:08):
to reduce the sound. So we already talked about the
idea of you stripping stuff down to just its bare
bones and making it loud, but it's also you really
introduced the idea of cross genres in modern hip hop music.
I mean with with Run DMC having their biggest hit

(48:31):
with Walked This Way, even with the Beastie Boys, at
least in their their narrative of it, like we were
making fun of smoking in the boys rooms and now
here you go would fight for you right the party.
But even with Johnny Cash doing hurt or even with
uh Mick Jaggers singing over impeach the President, even with

(48:54):
the stuff with Slayer or or working with Neil Diamond,
like there's always an element or Kanye rhyming over industrial streises.
There seems to be a common denominator of you pushing artists.
I don't willing or unwillingly. I mean, Kanye seems like
the type of person that's like, let's let's let's go

(49:16):
to the edge of it, let's do something different, Whereas
like Rundy m C was legendary for not liking or
wanting to do Walk This Way the way that you
wanted them to do it. So how much hold handing
and Jedi mind tricks and psychology it's all psychology? Seem like, yeah,
how how much of that is a nightmare for you

(49:38):
when you just want to make the damn song and
leave it the My whole relationship too, has changed over
the years. So in the case of run D m C,
then it was frustrating and I didn't have the tools
to deal with it. But luckily uh Russell called called
run in Dy and said, just do whatever Rick says.

(50:01):
It's like, really knows what he's doing. Just do what
Rick says. So had that not happened, they wouldn't have
They wouldn't have been on the record. That record wouldn't
have happened. So that's how that happened. And even after
Rock Box and King of Rock, they don't know that
they're on a winning formula, just like one one moment
away from super jackpot Well that this had less to

(50:25):
do with it being a rock song, had more to
do with singing someone else's words and singing someone else's
which they had never done before, and singing someone else's
words that they didn't necessarily like. How long did that
process take? Walk this way? I'm talking the same as
everything you know, same as everything else. The only thing
that was different was because Steve and Joe appeared on

(50:48):
the record. There was an extra day working on it
with those guys playing guitar and singing, singing vocals, the
guys from marasmith Um with with the Beastie Boys. Well,
first of all that I want to know who introduced
I have so many questions. Number one the Beastie Groove
rock Hard twelve inch Who were the Latin Rascals because

(51:12):
I've always have seen their names and like all these
twelve inches from three to eighty five, and then poof Nothing,
who were the Latin Rascals. The Latin Rascals were two
club DJs who worked at Shakedown Arthur Arthur Baker's studio
who invented this is pre sampler. There were no samplers

(51:36):
and they invented away. It was their own style of
doing remixes where they would do these edits on on
half inch tape where they would repeat the same like
on through editing. So it was like it wasn't scratching.

(52:00):
There was no sampling yet, and there was this other
way of manipulating the music, and the Latin Rascals invented
it and and they did it on all of Arthur's
records and um and they did a lot of club
remixes and that, and I can't remember what they did
on that. I don't remember them doing anything on those,
but it's possible. On on this Party is Getting rough.

(52:23):
That little see Philadelphia, where I come from, has a
very different relationship with this party is getting rough and
hold it now hit it? You know, because Lady B
and her Street B show that came on Power ninety
nine between like twelve and five pm on Sundays, they

(52:43):
made they basically made uh an edit where they would
play that middle sketch of this Party is Getting Rough
where it's like, oh, man, you just fested man, you
know you you didn't even turn up the boom box
and all that stuff, all the all the all that
chaos in the middle, and then they attached I don't

(53:05):
really remember, man, Yeah, this is this like the Philly anthem.
So they made they kind of made an edit. Philly
made an editor of their own of this Party is
Getting Rough and the Basti groove and just between Latin
rascals and man tronics, just the the idea of like
multiple sampling or like those crazy edits. That's all we heard.

(53:28):
But what's even weirder for holding Now hit It? Because
of a pressing mistake, the initial deaf Jam pressings have
Holding Now Hit It, have the acapella as side one,
Yes had the acapella as side one, and the the
DMX drum Machine version that's on the album as side too.

(53:52):
We never heard of the drum machine version in Philly ever,
so when when they're playing holding Now Hit It, there's
no such thing as an acapella or you juggling called
it acapulco version, and we thought, yo, dude, it was such.
It was the most radical ship we ever heard because
our thing was like the only way I can describe

(54:15):
it is if you ever seen Pooti Tang. And when
Chris Rock asked, the DJ introduces that song of silence,
like and now this new song lence, I'm just saying
these friends with Chris Rock, I don't know anyway. The
whole point was that we made up in our minds like, yo,

(54:37):
these dudes are so incredible they don't even need music,
and Holding Now Hit It. The acapella was number one
on the Power nine at nine four months to the
point where when we got the album and heard that
drum now, it's weird because in Florida, every everyone from

(55:00):
down South I know, even from Mirror tells the story
like when you're getting your car system the song that
you tested to see if you're if you're your car
systems right, that's holding Now hit it because you like
you mix your your joints loud as fun. When we
got that in Philly, we didn't know what the like, Yo,

(55:21):
what's this drum ship? Like this ain't on the album.
To this day, I will never acknowledge the album version
of Holding out here. I will only DJ the acapella version,
but even love to hear I've never heard the acapella version.
I'd love to hear it. I don't remember ever hearing it.
Bet it's great, probably better. That's crazy is your label?

(55:43):
That's it's the first acapella in history? Like love that, Yeah,
that's the first acapoco in history. And in working their album,
like how involved are you with with the marketing? And
because I'll be honest with you wet for two years

(56:03):
from eight five till we purchased the album and saw
the gatefold cover, I didn't know the Best boys were white.
We thought they were Puerto Rican affili at least, so
was that by design too? Like not put them on
the album cover and just to ride it out till
not at all the way we did it. We didn't.

(56:25):
We never even thought about it. On the seven original
def Jam singles, the Maroon label singles, of which where
rock Hard was one of those. I think that's the
only BC record that was there was an l L
there was that. There was Hollis Creek, Hollis Crew, Jimmy Spicer,

(56:49):
I'm a Girl Watcher with Papa D and Papa Son.
I don't think that was on Maroon. Okay, well there
was also m c A and Bazooti. Yeah, yeah, that Zudi.
Zooti is an engineer in New York named Jay Burnett,
and he was the guy who turned me onto the
studio that we loving. The renamed Chung King, the original,

(57:12):
the original Chunking. There's a Chunking, Yeah, And the reason
I called it Chung King was I didn't want anyone
to know that it was such a terrible place that
we were working in, so I made up Chunking. House
of Metal was like, uh, just the the one on
that was on. It's before before the Verrick one. It

(57:37):
was on was a church between Broom and Grant something
like that. Across from the pool. There's that police building.
You know the police building. He was on that block,
five floor walk up. The rest of the building were
like sweatshops. It was a really weird place. It was
really again I didn't know this because I wasn't into it,
but it was just a drug deal in place they

(58:01):
had They just had a studio, but it was mainly
drug dealing. But I didn't know that, Steve, Yes, you know,
speaking of which, you know what I mean that I
was just reminiscent. I think I think I was at
that place dropping off tapes at the first as an intern. Yeah,
the first place. Yeah, it was. I was only there once,

(58:25):
but we recorded um all of the BC boys stuff there.
We recorded raising hell, there recorded a lot of the
early def gem stuff there, maybe all of it. I
was gonna say, Steve, that that dmx DR machine that's
hanging in our studio, that's ricks. Yeah, I know, I

(58:48):
know this is also tell the world, but you know,
I mean I need that the one questions that in
this room is that a stolen or no? Um, we
know is it? We you know what we had to
re record. I can't right left handed with John Legend,
and we were running out of studios and it just

(59:08):
so happens that that was open and when we got there,
we were told this is our last day and kind
of you know, I was like doing my fan boys
things like, oh my god, this is the old Chunk
King and no, no, no no. And whoever the owner
was a guy he's like just like on some me
and Joe Green. Here a kid catch. Um, he showed
me this season is this DMX and he's just created

(59:31):
you know, all the death j M days has been
here forever. You know, you'll take care of this and
I took it anyway. May that may or may not
be true. Well, there's multiple I'm sure there's multiple DMX

(59:53):
drum scenes, but I prefer my version of it. Um,
was the was the just the flood game of Licensed
to Ill? Was that scary to you or overwhelming at
the time? And how are you guys treated by Columbia Records?
By this point? We were never treated well by anybody,

(01:00:13):
even when selling twelve million units? Yes, even then, man,
really so you were still we were off the red
nose the rain. I mean it was this period, was
this uh Montola period, like where was yet a coffin?
I'll teller those were the people that I don't tell

(01:00:36):
her from m c A was at Columbia first. He
was the president of Columbia at the time that we
were there. Damn. The only person that I ever really
dealt with on a regular basis was Jeff Jones, who
was a great guy. He was a product manager and
he now runs Apple Records for the Beatles based in London,
and he's still around and he remembers like he he

(01:00:57):
told me stories of things that happened back then. I
didn't remember, but it was funny, like like with License
to Ill, he he said. He goes into a meeting,
he's like, well, Rick Rubin says, we can't put a
barcode on the outside of the cover, and uh, you know,
we have to figure out how we're going to do
this because we've never done this before, and that, you know,
the people in the meta like who the fund is,

(01:01:17):
Rick Rubin, what do you mean? It's like, we do
this all, we're doing that. Of course it's gonna have
a barcode. He's like no, but Rick won't let us
have the barcode. He's like, he's insistent. So again I
had no memory of that, but we would fight. We
would fight for the art to get the art the
way we wanted all the time, and people just didn't
know what it was, you know, just say, it's very

(01:01:37):
little understanding of what it was that we were doing.
Who conceptualized the album cover for License to Ill? That
was me, I'll tell you. I had just read the
led Zeppelin book Camera the Gods about them being on
tour and all the debauchery of crazy rock stardom and

(01:02:00):
and and there were images of led Zeppelin's airplane in
the book, and it just seemed like, wow, that's just
like the height of decadence. This an airplane at with
this crazy rock and roll lifestyle going on. And I
thought I would be interesting to have a beastie boy,
a beastie boy air airplane representing this sort of crazy

(01:02:23):
debauchery all made up. You know, none of this was true.
We were kids, We were kids in school, you know,
this was none of this was accurate. This was a
fantasy based on loving, loving led Zeppelin. It was the
fantasy of well, what about beastie boys jumbo jet that
rams into a mountain like that. That's like the way

(01:02:46):
the story ends is the it goes with this crazy
rock and roll lifestyle, and I thought, well, because it
would be a gatefold, it'd be like you'd see the
front of it and you'd think it was you just
think it was an airplane. And then you'd open it
up and you'd get the reveal of the back and
then yeah. And then when I would drive from my
parents house on Long Island into the city, I would

(01:03:08):
always pass the globe um from the that's in the centerfold,
and I was thought, oh, it'd be great, like someday
that would be a great thing to use in a photograph.
And then the opportunity was with the Beastie Boys. The
inner the inner sleeve has anyone ever, you know, it's
weird when I've seen it. I remember getting the album

(01:03:30):
like Thanksgiving of eighty six, so I would like to
think that I think the album came out in November
eighty six, like late November. Um, but this happened. The
album cover occurred like nine months after the Space Settle
challenge thing challenger challenges like the Ship out of Me

(01:03:52):
in Kindergarten, Yo. Yeah, and like that album and see
that ash like just traumatized me even more so. It's weird,
like I have his love his love relationship with with
the album because it's so you know, my monumental. But
it's like, uh, the nights. I just looked at that

(01:04:14):
album cover like it's killing me. I didn't I didn't
know about the crash, and it didn't I'll tell you
now in I knew it at the time, but I
didn't know enough to be able to get it the
way I really wanted it. But it never was the
way I really wanted it, which was I wanted to
look more really like a photograph, and instead it looks

(01:04:34):
more like a Mad magazine cover cartoon like it. It's
more cartoony looking than I would have liked it to be.
I would have liked it to be like photo realist.
Whom the artist that drew it was he a friend
of yours or no, no, he was a friend of um.
The guy who was our art director at the label,

(01:04:57):
Steve Byrom was his name, And I would just say, hey,
this is the vision for the cover. How do we
get this made? And then he had his friend he
commissioned it. But which is why it didn't come out
the way I wanted it to come out. You know,
it's like, so you've seen it, We're disappointed. Yeah, I
said this isn't really. It's like the image is right,
but the way it was done was not right. It

(01:05:20):
felt more like a cartoon. But it was like, well,
you know, the album's coming out and we have no time.
It's like okay, and and they eat me. That was
not that was creative, like the eating of that. I
didn't that was not my idea. So what did you
think about Eminem's arm But then I forgot you produced that?
Did you talk or did he say I wanted you one?

(01:05:40):
Eminem's album? Uh? Not Abuse it to be murdered by
I was the one before that one. It was the
recovery was Recovery. It just came out like a year
or two ago. Oh, I'm looking right now. Wait, which
was to my question, which is Rick, how do you
pick your projects just based on liking either liking the

(01:06:02):
music or liking the artists one or the other. Like
Karma Kazi, Sorry, Karma Kazi. That was it? Yeah, it
just didn't produce that. Oh I thought you produced the
last Karma Kazi. Yikes, Okay, I stand corrected. Well, Karmic
tribute to you License to Ill so cool? Yeah. As

(01:06:22):
as an album cover, just on the back of Bill's question, Rick,
how come you only did one I've noticed you only
did uh the Andrew Dice Clay album, like that was
your only comedian that you work with? Well, we did.
I think we did five five Andrew Dice clayout and
I always looked for other comedians to work with, but
never found there was At one point I was interested

(01:06:44):
in recording Carlos Mencia. I don't know, and I think
we like started talking about it, maybe even recorded a
little bit, but it just never never came together. For
whatever reason. Have you done any more requests though comedian? Why? Well?
I loved Gerard. I think he's incredible. I've never thought

(01:07:05):
about him doing an album, but that's a really interesting idea.
He wants. How long did you have to bug publican
h me until Chuck finally relented and signed to the label.
It was a really long time. It was a long time.
I want to say it felt like forever then, but
it was probably nine months, maybe a year. But for

(01:07:27):
you know, when you're twenty years old, a year is forever. No,
that's a long time. And they had a post it
note of Chuck's number next to my phone, and any
time I would walk by the phone, I'd see it
and I would call and then Bill Stephanie, who was
our first employee at def JAM. He knew Chuck, and
at one point I got so frustrated, I said, you

(01:07:49):
have to tell Chuck. If he doesn't sign to def JAM,
I'm firing you. Like you have to convince him he
has to do this. And it's not like he wanted
to sign to someone else. He didn't want to make records,
that was the thing. It's like he was too old.
He thought he was too old. How did you How
did you feel about the Bomb Squad's production methods, because

(01:08:11):
that's the total opposite of your reduction. B loved it.
I like I like different things, you know, I'm not.
I like all kinds of different things. I actually heard
something on your on your James Brown recent DJ set.
Maybe it was night too, if I remember correctly, For

(01:08:35):
the first time, I heard what I think was the
inspiration for the Bomb Squad that I've never heard before. Wow,
I have to find I'll find it and send it
to you, just so you have for your own reference.
And I think you pieced you put the pieces of
a puzzle together from me that I never knew were there.

(01:08:55):
You know during this period at least between eight six
and eighty nine, I'm it between your work with LLL
and I am curious as to why you did not
produce Uh Bigger And I always wanted to know how
you felt about like the L A Posse and I
Need Love and all that stuff. But you're doing these
Slayer records and not to mention like I mean your

(01:09:17):
heart meant like how what is your approach to Are
you just leading from the gut or do you have
like a mapped out plan that you're explaining to the group.
This is the vision I have for you, Like how
do you work with Slayer? Just going into the studio
and first going into pre production talking about the parts
and the songs, helping make them as good as they

(01:09:39):
could be, and then figuring out how to um. In
their case, it was interesting because they already were popular,
a popular underground band. Like the night I saw them,
they sold out the Ritz, which is pretty substantial place.
I saw them at the Ritz blew my mind. It's like,
I like heavy music. I never heard of these guys before,

(01:10:01):
and this was one of the craziest, heaviest concerts I've
ever seen in my life. How is this. It's like
a parallel universe that this exists, and um and I
talked to them that night after the show and then
ended up flying out and meeting him in California after
that because I've never heard I've never heard someone play
double kick that intense and you know, not not only

(01:10:27):
is it intense, it's funky. That's the He's the only
of all the heavy metal drummers I've ever heard who
play in that double kick drum style. He's the only
one where it's groovy maybe else what thing though, that's

(01:10:48):
not what Lars does. That's not what Lars does. Groovy
large does something else. So someone like a pro fast,
prog rock drummer. So some kid at school puts me
on By the time I get Nation of Millions, some
kid puts me onto Random Blood and then uh plays
uh yeah yeah she you know when I was listening

(01:11:10):
to and they're like, well, you know that's that's a
Slayer song and playing the original join and then like
I started buying the records just as a completist, but yeah,
trying to play that ship. Because there was like a
hard rock band that I joined, like in high school
for like four months, but I quit because like, I
can't do double foot action that good. But it's like,

(01:11:31):
how did you capture those performances? Like are there jam sessions?
Are there? Like guys, here's the course, let's or is
it just like okay, open the e open, just boss
the wall go no no, no, no no. They wrote
the songs. I came in. I said, maybe this parts
too long, maybe this part is too short, maybe we

(01:11:53):
need another part here. But very it's all them, it's
all them and Slayer were unbelievable, and then it was
just properly recording them in a way not to screw
it up. And he was a big breakthrough. Sonic breakthrough
in my mind, was the only records you could hear
that were that approached that speed at that time would

(01:12:16):
be like Metallica's first record. I think that's all that
was out. I don't even think their second record. But
but Metallica, those records were recorded like a traditional rock band,
which again it like it goes back to the hip
hop argument in the beginning, it's like nobody's looking at

(01:12:36):
the thing for what it is, to make it the
best version of what it is. People are looking at Okay,
well on rock records, we use big drum sounds with
long with long um reverbs. Yeah, long sounds, and that's
what makes them sound big. But if you're playing fast,
and if you do that, it's just a blur. You

(01:12:57):
don't hear anything. It's just exactly So I'm looking at Okay,
this band is incredible and they play tight and fast,
and the key is how do we get it to
sound like like you're listening to them with a magnifying glass,
not how do you blend it together into an impressionist painting. Um.

(01:13:22):
So in the in the case of Slayer, it was, okay,
how do we make the drums sounds super tight, super tiny,
because the speed of the drums, the only way you're
going to even be able to hear it is if
they're basically taps, you know, like tiny little taps um.

(01:13:44):
So it really a lot of it has to do
with in each of these cases of the things that
I've on the records where I've worked on where they
sound different than the records that came before them, it
was only looking at them for what they are and
figuring out, how do we make this thing sound good,
not how do we use the baggage of the past,
how do we apply old methods to this? It's how

(01:14:07):
do we what's right for what this is? So how
do you know the difference between what to give a
slayer as opposed to like the word that you did
with the call as far as rock sounds are concerned, Now,
I know you know, like, how much research do you

(01:14:27):
have to put into the acts that you work with
to know what their strengths and their weaknesses are. I
put no research in whatsoever. But the research that I
do is as a fan all the time, listening to
music all the time, and I listen and then based
on what I'm hearing, I'll make suggestions just based on

(01:14:50):
whatever whatever little bit that I've picked up from listening
to music my whole life. We should probably be asking
to LLL this. But since you were there to help
make the track, what exactly went between l L and
Cool Mood that made him make Jack the Ripper? I remember, Yeah,

(01:15:12):
I don't know that anything happened. I think it might
have just been that. I mean, did you realize that
you were making a Cool Mood dis record? Nope, and
one of the first disc records. I never thought it
because that was your boyfriend back in the day. Ye
love him. You you just thought about it that way

(01:15:33):
at all, And it kind of goes back to your
go go love too because it was the Chuck Brown
sample that it's also the sample Yeah yeah, oh yeah,
I forgot. I forgot that athlete's orts clip is yeah,
except it's not just the painting full break. Yeah. How
how what was your experience like shooting Tougher than Leather Terrible?

(01:15:58):
You directed? I was gonna say, Okay, I'm a first
time director. What what what can you what? What? What
advice can you give me? I mean, alry, my movie's
already done, so okay. I was gonna say, if you
have an opportunity not to do it, don't you leave. Okay,
So tell me about your experience in in directing Tougher

(01:16:19):
than Leather? Uh, well, where I didn't know what I
was doing. In the recording studio, it was easy because
there was so few people there and the stakes were low.
And on a movie set there are many more people
and the schedule is like, Hey, I'm gonna be an

(01:16:39):
hour late to the studio today, talk to you, talk
to you guys later. No problem. Movie sets not like that.
It's like everything was and yeah, and we were our
whole lives were you know, I slept until I never
took a class before three in the afternoon when I
went to in y U, because I slept until probably one,

(01:16:59):
and we went out all night every night. So the
idea of showing up on a movie set at six
o'clock in the morning every day, that wasn't anything that
I anticipated, and that was not a it was not
a realistic ask in the way my life worked. So

(01:17:19):
it was a terrible experience, and um, I wouldn't wish it,
wouldn't wish it on my enemy. Did you insist on
directing that movie or was it like you had an
upcoming april or to do it or something like? How
did you wind up holding the director's manual? Me and
my friend Rick wrote the idea. It was Rick. Rick

(01:17:42):
was really more the writer than I. We would throw
ideas together, but Rick was the main writer. Rick Minello
and who was the guy who ran the desk at
my dorm, so he would be the night He would
work at the dorm from midnight to six. He was
the night watchman essentially, and the dorm was pretty quiet
from the night to six, so I would usually get
home from the club to three, and I would sit

(01:18:04):
there with Rick and we would order food from Cozy
Superenberger around the corner and watch old watch old movies
on TV. And he was a film major and film
historian new tremendous amount and then in later years ended up,
you know, working with Darren Aronofsky and um James Gray,
James Gray, some great directors, and all of my friends

(01:18:27):
who were directors would always anytime anyone I knew who
made movies had a movie question, they would all call
Rick Minello because he knew more than everybody that Rick
Minello was the main script writer. He he's in it too.
I can't remember what his character. He was played, sort
of the the sidekick guy to my guy. I can't

(01:18:47):
remember his his character's name, I can't remember. I really
blocked out a lot about that movie. Actually, he was
also in the Beastie Boys video for No Sleep Till Brooklyn.
He was like the club, you know, in the beginning,
there's like a skit with a that's Rick Minello. So

(01:19:08):
he's been in a few depth ym uh products. Yes,
and he directed Going Back to Kelly as well. Oh,
the video of Going Back to Kelly, which we story
boarded together at the desk at Weinstein the dormitory at NYU. Okay,
so something I don't know, and I don't know if

(01:19:29):
you ever went on record. I never knew how or
why you left def Jam. I just remember your name
being on the executive producer for Nation of Millions, and
then when I looked for your name on Fear of
a Black Planet, you weren't there anymore. And then I
next day I heard of you. You had a funeral

(01:19:50):
for the word death. So what I mean, why did
you decide to leave your your your first love? It
really had to There were two things going on. One
was over the time together however many years. It was
three or four or five years, my relationship with Russell

(01:20:11):
was starting to I wouldn't say it ever turned bad,
because we were always good friends, but it felt like
our what we wanted was was changing. And I felt
like I really loved our friendship and didn't want our
friendship to end. And I thought, if we remained partners,
our friendships probably gonna end, So maybe it's better just

(01:20:34):
not to be partners anymore. And then there was something
going on that really triggered it had to do with
the way we were being treated by Columbia and what
we needed Columbia to do to fix the situation for
our artists. For example, I remember the first time we
went to England and the guy at Columbia basically told us,

(01:20:57):
you know, we're just not we're not interested in your records.
That they said, and he said, we look at Columbia
records in New York as an albatross and it's nothing
against you personally, but because you come from them, we're
just not really interested even though you're making that money. Yeah,
I'm seven. You guys are so more units than Michael

(01:21:19):
Jackson's bed. Yeah, And it was unbelievable. I had a
meeting with Alt Teller at the time, who was the
president of the company, and told him all of my
concerns and I talked for a half hour and I
got really emotional. I started crying because again, I care
so much about this ship. It's my whole life and
um and at the end of the conversation, I say,

(01:21:41):
you know, we gotta we have to figure out a
way to fix this, because if not, I have to leave.
Like I can't. I can't keep doing this. I can't
put my heart into this and have partners who don't
care or who are not going as hard as they
can as hard as we're going. I can't do this.
And um, and this is after half hour of my

(01:22:02):
I remember I had a pad and I listed all
the things that were wrong in the relationship. Whatever. Uh
if I would have known that they put the wrong
A side on the record, that that's an example they've
been on the list. Yeah, it's like, but that was
indicative of what it was like. It was like nobody
really cared. These guys do this ship that we don't
understand and luckily itselves, but we don't know what it

(01:22:26):
is and we don't really care what it is. We
just don't want it to stop. Um. But they one
with Yetnikov or one on one with Diard or Matola,
none of those guys. Einer wasn't there, Matola wasn't there.
Yet It was so the guy i'll teller was the
president of the company. Matola was his boss, but he

(01:22:49):
wasn't really involved in what the day to day of
Columbia record. So I had this meeting with the guy
the right person to have a meeting with. I have
this meeting. I have a heartfelt emotional. He's sitting there
holding a baseball bat through the meeting because yeah, he
saw himself as kind of like tough. So he's sitting
there holding this baseball bat. I'm talking twenty minutes, twenty

(01:23:11):
five minutes. I'm crying at the end and telling him
finally that if we can't work this stuff out, we
can't get to the bottom this. I got to leave,
and I said, you know, I never signed a contract.
Russell signed the contract. I never signed anything, and I
have to leave. And he said, wait, wait a minute,
wait a minute, what did you just say. And I said,
I said never. Yeah, I said I never signed a contract,

(01:23:35):
you know, only Russell signed. And he said, okay, wait
a minute. You're gonna have to start back at the
beginning because I wasn't listening to anything you were saying,
we're saying. My sound effect with me is this is really,
this is real. So how long until Death American is
started right away? Because when I left f JAM, I

(01:23:58):
had already started. Like Slayer was signed to deaf Jam originally,
Danzig was signed to death Jam originally, and Dice. I
can't remember if Dice was if I had already signed
Dice or not when I remember going out to lunch
with the Russell and saying, you know this isn't gonna work.
I don't the relationship with Columbia is bad. And oh

(01:24:20):
so what that meeting that I told you about, the
start at the beginning again meeting? When that meeting, after
that meeting, I told Russell, you know this is not good.
We can't do this anymore. And the way that Columbia
ended up fixing it was to write a big check
to death Jam without dealing with any of the problems.

(01:24:43):
It was just a check and Russell was cool with that,
and I was not cool with that. So that was
sort of the you know what, I don't think we
can do this anymore. Like this doesn't feel right. And
I said to him, I said, do you want to
leave the company? And he said I don't want to
leave and I said, okay, I guess I have to leave.
And it was just like that, there wasn't I thought it, Yeah, yikes,

(01:25:07):
because you left before well you left after the beast
he's left, correct left after ye? Yeah? How did um
did you and UM like uh at Rock or any
of them? Did you'all have have conversations about why you
both left or interestingly interestingly, we have never really discussed it,

(01:25:28):
and it's definitely an elephant in the room that would
be good to discuss, and we just never did. But
I'm sure it will happen. It may happen next week,
like it'll happen. What were your thoughts on Paul's boutique.
I loved it. I thought it was the I remember
listening to it at the Montreal Hotel, me and Chuck
d together. We were We were there because I think

(01:25:48):
Public Enemy was gonna appear somewhere in California. I don't
know whether it was a club date or a TV show,
but we're at the Mandreal. We got an advance. I
don't even know if it was an advance. It might
have just been like from the studio, like they had
just finished it, and me and Chuck listened to it
and we both thought, oh my god, this is the
greatest thing we've ever heard. This is the future hip
hop like this is. It doesn't get better than this,

(01:26:11):
and we were shocked that it was not as well
received as we thought. It deserved to be the thing
that I remember the most, at least your first year
of death American was all the press that you got.
As far as the Ghetto Boys were concerned, how did
they come how did they come across your radar? And

(01:26:34):
what was it about them that drew you to them?
And all the ensuing controversy that came with them? Like, yeah,
I had never heard like n w A was already happening.
Well maybe just the Easy E album. I don't know
if there was an n w A album yet. There
was an Easy E album for sure, and I loved

(01:26:56):
easy And then I heard the Ghetto Boys and I
felt like, oh, like where n w A was gangster,
this is like hard in that way, but more like
more unhinged, more like um horror like like violent, but

(01:27:19):
not violent like a bad drug deal gone wrong, like
violent like a horror movie, you know, like dismemberment, crazy.
And and I just liked the how extreme it was.
It spoke to me right away. And I thought that
the album um didn't sound It didn't sound as good

(01:27:39):
as it could have. So I remixed the album. I
didn't add anything to it or I just basically remixed
the album and change the cover and change the name
because they were called the Ghetto Boys g H. Yeah,
And I thought, you know, it it sounds too ordinary,
like they could be the Ghetto Boys, but should be
the g et Old Boys just because it I don't know,

(01:28:02):
I just thought it was more interesting, um would look
better on T shirts as well. Okay, so how how
much of I mean? Now, It's like, especially in the
environment that we're in right now, as far as like uh,
right wing Republican Christian news talking points and those things

(01:28:27):
like you know, now, it's sort of like you collectively
roll your eyes or that, you know, like that side
of the fences lying but back in like they it
seemed like royal threats. And I remember I knew the
Ghetto Boys because one Chuck Chuck these shadowed them out

(01:28:50):
on Fear of a Black Panic Planet album. But all
the controversy of scar faces lyrics being walking points for
everybody running for Senate, any Republican running for Senate or
the House using this thing like to this was this
manner from heaven like for you is I had controversy

(01:29:13):
and bad news like yes, this is what I want
to be your parents worst nightmare. This is the first
time ever hearing of that being the case. What Ted White?
Ted White, I think who ran Billboard? Oh man? He
wrote like paragraphs and dissertations of mind of Alu. I
would have never ever like the sure fireway to get

(01:29:36):
a seventeen eighteen year old to buy the ship. It's
because Ted White could not a billboard could not stop
writing about how violent Scarface's mind of a lunatic was
and this needs to be banned and ship. I was like, word,
I'm about this ship. Clama parents hated it must be good. Yeah.

(01:29:57):
I always like crazy, you know, I like edgy crazy shit.
It's it's interesting to me. It's fun. I mean, but
you do realize, like being parents worst nightmare is also
like that's great marketing. That's a regged exact candy, Like
that's that's so that never excited you at all. No,

(01:30:21):
I never never thought about it because usually I would
have to get the calls more like the record company
not wanting to put it out, you know. That's what
I had to deal with, Like Slayer, Columbia Records refused
to put out that Slayer record, so then I had
to find a new way to release it, even though
the first one was on def Jam, but it wasn't
through Columbia because they refused to release it. Then I've

(01:30:42):
made a deal with Geffen Records, which is where that went.
And then in my deal with Geffen, I had to
have complete creative control where they could never come to
me and say they're not gonna put something out. And
then when it came to Andrew Dice Clay or the
Ghetto Boys, you're like, well, we're not gonna put it out.
It's like, the whole reason I'm at your company is
because I need a safe place to put out crazy shit.

(01:31:04):
That's why I'm here. This is what I do. And
you'll see when you look back on it in time,
it'll be the right decision. It'll be like you're too
you're too close to the story now. But if you
look back in history, important things often stick out like
soft thumbs in their day and are hated or vilified,

(01:31:29):
or they burned Beatles albums. You know, man, Elvis was
the you know, the devil. What what was it about
the Black Crows that excited you to sign them to
the label? Did you sign all the acts that were
at least on the first run of Death American to
the label or was it like did you have a
full staff? And you know I didn't. I didn't have

(01:31:50):
a full staff. But there was my friend who I
went to school with named George T. Culius, who who's
been called out on a BST record. Maybe well, he's
also been my boss a few movies that I scored. George.
If you're clearing music in movies, Georgia, coolie, is that
that's your guy that you work with? Okay? Great? So
George was, Um, he was an inter. It's funny. I

(01:32:15):
was an intern at Deaf Jam when I owned Deaf
Jam at n y U. And the reason I was
an intern was because then I got school credit for
working at Deaf Jam. George was George was my intern
at Deaf Jam where he got credit in the dorm,
and then there was a time when he was my

(01:32:36):
roommate in the dorm. I remember correctly. Um and George
he found the Black Crows and that was his both
his signing and his production. That was his vision, and
the Jayhawks as well. He signed the Jayhawks and never
told me that, Hey, wait, all these old Deaf Jam

(01:32:58):
questions are coming back to me. Um the storyline to
Crush Groove, Um, how much of that was actual life?
I'm trying to get to be kind of uncut. Gym's
robbing Peter to pay Paul. Narrative of like did you

(01:33:19):
guys ever have Like that's the storyline of having to
borrow money to press up twelve inches or to keep
up with demand. That's Hollywood, Hollywood fakery. That's none of that. Okay,
just checking, just checking. Um. So outside of Deaf American recordings,

(01:33:40):
can you talk about your your your work with with
Johnny Cash and how you got him back to his
glory point, because I mean, I would imagine before you
two worked together he was sort of waning in the
creative department at least, like with the last four records

(01:34:00):
that he worked on with you, that was like probably
one of the best storied comebacks in a music career.
What was it like working with him? Coolest thing, coolest
thing that ever happened in my life. He was a beautiful, brilliant, humble, interesting,

(01:34:21):
quiet guy who studied history off. He had a tremendous
amount of wisdom that he didn't offer unless you drew
him out, because he was pretty reserved. But if you
if you asked him about stuff, he would tell you
about it. And he knew a lot about a lot
of things, and a tremendous amount about music and the

(01:34:43):
history of country music and folk music. Um, and I
learned a tremendous amount being around him. Did you get
a chance to personally know him? Like what was he
telling you stories of recording for Son and that whole
million dollars session thing and everything you ever wanted to know?
And um, he would I got to know him personally well.

(01:35:05):
He would stay at my house when he came to
l A. I would say at his house if I
went to Nashville. Um, I don't know how much we
talked about old times unless there was a specific reason
to her. If I had a particular interest, he would
tell me stories about about Sam Phillips, though he loved
Sam Phillips. Which artists opens up to you the most

(01:35:28):
as far as uh, I don't know if you have
the same relationship would say a Jay Z that you
would with Anthony Keatis. So I know there's different degrees
of getting to know your clients as you're producing them.
And I know there's an an artist producer trust that
has to be established, but I know there's different degrees

(01:35:49):
of that of like which artists I mean, and this
is not asking what's your favorite artists you ever worked with.
But who's who's the cloist? Who do you know the
best that you feel that you're just actual friends with,
like really friends? Is that the Mars Bold guys is

(01:36:10):
you know? I feel like I'm friends with a lot
a lot of them. I'm just thinking if there are
any unique standouts, I would say the people who have
made the most albums with That plays a role, just
because you're around them more, you know, it's just more
hours together. Yeah. So, like, I've been around the Chili

(01:36:31):
Peppers a lot, so I probably know them better than
somebody who I did you know a couple of songs
with like jay Z. But I feel very comfortable when
I hang out with jay Z. I feel like pretty
good friends. Feels good. Andrew Dice Clay though, I'm just
saying I was. I was pretty close with Dice. I
would go out every night to the comedy store after

(01:36:53):
my session and we would hang out in the kitchen
of the comedy sort. Chris Rock would be there often. Also,
I mean with with the Chili Peppers, how do you
how do you see their growth as for more they
were in in nineteen Assume that Blood Sugar Sex Magic

(01:37:16):
was the first time you work with him. You didn't
do Mother's Milk correct? No, No, Although I like I
thought Mother's Milk was their best record to date, that
was the Mother's Milk was the record that made me
excited to work with them. Okay, So how is it
working with him and managing their you know whatever, you

(01:37:38):
have to juggle to make it right as opposed to uh,
once they became more like a comfortable shoe that you
were familiar with. I'll say, I think it's the same.
I don't think um. I think the goal is always
to treat people respectfully and honestly late and that happens

(01:38:02):
regardless of how deep the relationship is. I don't I
don't think that changes pretty much. The thing we're there
to do looks the same either way. The only other
thing that I'll say, with the artists who have made
many records with another like System of a Down I
made all of their albums with. With the bands that
that I've worked with several times, there there gets to

(01:38:25):
be a shorthand where like usually the first record we
make together, same Tom, Petty, all all of them, the
first record we make together takes the longest because we're
like filling each other. Yeah, like figuring out a vocabulary
of how we're gonna do it. But once that's established,
it's much easier after that, but only only out of

(01:38:46):
just that decoding, you know, decoding the system. Do you
prefer piecemeal projects as far as getting uh? You know,
they just say, look, I just want one song, like
you did one song on Justin Timberlakes record for Future
Sex Sounds. Damn, that sounds like sex Love Sounds, Future

(01:39:09):
Sex Magic Sounds. I don't know. As opposed to doing
an entire album, what what would you what do you prefer?
I really like making albums. I don't like doing songs
because I think that the nature of the process to
get to an album, to get to one song or

(01:39:31):
to get to an album could be the same amount
of experimentation, do you know what I'm saying? Like to
to find the voice. If you're working on one song,
it takes just as long to figure out what that is.
It maybe longer because in a way, when you're working

(01:39:52):
on one shot, you only got one shot and it's
hard to even know the way in it. But sometimes
you'll be working on twenty songs and one song you're like, oh,
that's the key to the whole thing. Now it's all
gonna work. Do you do you ever run into a
situation in which where that trust isn't isn't there where

(01:40:15):
you know an artist is stubborn they feel that you know, well,
you know, I'm giving a hypothetical example. I don't know,
Like if you can tell Adele okay sing this ship again,
give me take nine and she'll knock it out. The
part as opposed to again convincing the beastie boys that

(01:40:37):
fight for your right is the song. And trust me
on this one? Like how much trust me on this one?
End quote? Do you have to go through in your
post in your post def jam posts American Recordings career,
it's like now in terms of like working with Neil
Diamond or even Sames Blake, Yeah, ah, most never, almost never.

(01:41:02):
Trust me on this one. I don't like that the
goal is to and I always say at the beginning
of a project, it's like everyone has to like it.
Everyone here has to love it. If I love it
and you don't love it, we've failed. If you love
it and I don't love it, we failed. It just

(01:41:22):
means we haven't gone far enough. If we don't all
love it, have you ever had to walk away from
a project. I've never had to walk away, but I've
been walked away on I'm not a quitter. I don't
I don't quit projects. But there have been there's been
a I can tell you. I can tell you about
a couple, uh tell we tried. Like I started an

(01:41:43):
album with Crosby, Sills and Nash and ten years ago
twelve about ten years ago, and it was a and
there was a case of there being a lack of trust,
but the lack of trust more had to do with themselves,
like within the band. Like there's another interesting thing. When
the Chili Peppers first asked me to produce them, it

(01:42:05):
was before Blood Sugar Sex Magic. It was two albums
before that. I think it was Freaky Sidly, the one,
the one where it was all of the original members.
And I remember a friend of mine whicheveryone had all
of the original members because a friend of mine said,
who loved them, said, if you're ever going to produce

(01:42:27):
the Chili Peppers, now is the time. It's all of
the original members. This is the time. So me and
Adam Harvits, beastie boy Adam Harvits, went to a rehearsal
in l A on Sunset Boulevard of the Chili Peppers
at that time, and it was just a weird, bad
vibe in the room, had nothing to do with us.
It was just between them. It felt shady and I

(01:42:49):
didn't know what it was. Now I've come to learn
later it was drugs, but I didn't I didn't know that.
I didn't know what to look for it that time.
I just felt like, I think yes, but there was
a sense that these guys don't trust each other, like
they they didn't look at each other with like. It
just felt shaky. The whole thing felt shaky, and it

(01:43:11):
felt like I don't really think this is right for
me to be around, Like I don't know how to
do this. And another one was Joe Cocker. I went
to the studio with Joe Cocker. I had it at
the time that I produced a C D C. And
I got Malcolm Young to play rhythm guitar on Joe
Cocker record, Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers, Ben Mont from

(01:43:33):
the Heartbreakers. It was a really good band, was really
good session and Joe I wanted it to be a
very raw, guttural, emotional album and Joe saw himself more
like Sting. He wanted to be more like a Sting album,

(01:43:55):
like jazzy stings, like very produced, adult, very adult man.
You wanted, he wanted, he wanted his Grammy moment, and
I just it wasn't. It wasn't so much as I
don't feel like I quit. It was just like our
visions were so different that it just no one was

(01:44:19):
really interested. We didn't nobody wanted to make the same thing,
so that one didn't happen. Yes, but considering how many
albums I've made, I could count on one hand, less
than one hand, how many times it has not worked out.
You mentioned a C D C. And I'm gonna forget
this question. Are are they? Do they have an iota

(01:44:40):
or or are they even remotely aware of how much
flick of the switch has changed your life personally? Other
than what I told him, you know, I told I
would tell him, it's like their their music. They have
no idea that that one note has is that where

(01:45:01):
it's from. I don't even know. I just randomly switch. No, No,
I knocked the bells and just the trademark. Rick Ruben Okay,
I always wanted to know. I wouldn't even know. It's
so funny. I wouldn't have even known that that's what
it was. I just literally every time, it's like, oh,

(01:45:23):
I think it's on an A C d C record,
and I just hunt through every track until I find
something and something like that man hip. Okay, so L's
sophomore record. It's interesting, unusual, unusual story. I don't believe
I've ever told it publicly. Um At the time that

(01:45:44):
I met L, he was being raised. His mom was
in the picture, but he was mainly being raised by
his grandmother, and he didn't know his dad. And then
we made our first album together, and then he became
L cool J probably seventeen at that time. And then

(01:46:05):
LLL's dad appears, Oh wow, and he comes back and
LLL obviously wants his dad and his and Russell was
managing LLL and ll L if I remember correctly fired
Russell and hired Jimmy, his dad, to be his manager,

(01:46:28):
and I just I just felt like it was a
bad vibe, like we I never discussed it with L.
We never talked about it. It just felt like something's
going on here that's dark, and this is not energy
for me to be around. This good is not going

(01:46:50):
to come from this situation, and I just sort of
bowed out and then it ended up it ended up
turning bad um sometime. I don't know how much longer,
but I think there would ended up being problems between
Ell and his dad after that. But it just, yeah,
it just felt too shady, felt too um. I didn't

(01:47:10):
like that they were not nice to Rustle when Russell
really cared about l like firing a guy who was
really working for you. This new guy coming in the
scene kind of under questionable. Yes he was his dad,
but still, why wasn't his dad before? He was a
cool right? It was just it just felt very weird.

(01:47:30):
Can you explain to me what exactly was your role
in Jesus and in the life of Pablo, because it's
just to see the credits on the albums, I'm just
assuming that you're in a room with over twelve to

(01:47:52):
twenty chefs and everyone's just throwing ideas in well, just
based on looking at the album credits, like exactly, it's
not not exactly how it worked. Kanye built up the
material over years for the for that what ended up

(01:48:12):
being Jesus. Okay, when he first came he called me.
He called me and said, hey, I want to come
over and play in my new album. Okay, It's like great.
He came over and we listened to three hours of
music yo with almost no vocals, like just yes, and

(01:48:33):
it's like wow, cool, it's like off to a good start.
What do you know? What are you thinking you're gonna
you know, make you think you'll finished next year or something.
He's like, it's coming out in three weeks. And said,
what it's like it made no sense. And then and
I played on Black Sabbath. I said, you know, ad
this Black Sabbath album that's done and mastered, and that's

(01:48:57):
not coming out in three weeks, that's coming out later
than that. It's like this, this is what it sounds
like when it's coming out in three weeks. And and
he said, I want you to help me finish it.
I wanted to be like, let's finish it. And and
it was a terrifying experience because I've never worked on

(01:49:20):
anything like that. I don't like to work on a
deadline ever. Anyway, It's like I always feel like it
it sort of happens as it's supposed to happen. Something's
happened very quickly. Some things take a long time. L
L's first album probably took less than a month to record.
And when I say less than a month, meaning a
song a day that's on the album over the course

(01:49:43):
of a month. Do you know what I'm saying? Not
in the studio every day for a month, like I
got a new track, let's go in on Thursday, that
happening totally a month. Was the First Beast with the
First Beast These album was probably two years in the making,
and it just took that long. It just took not

(01:50:05):
every day again, it was like it just takes a
long time because the you're waiting for the ideas to come.
It's like it's not pre written. We're writing it now.
Now most of the artists I work with, we don't
go into the studio until it's mostly all written. So
it's a different it's a different experience, and that could
happen in a much shorter time. Wait, so, did Kanyie

(01:50:26):
already have his verses written but they just weren't on
on the tracks. No? No, it wasn't even clear what
the songs were gonna sound like or what was going
to be on the album. It was a very wide
range of songs and it was super cool. It was cool.
I've come to learn that's the way he works. This
was I never worked like that before, so it was

(01:50:48):
unusual to me. To him, it was standard in the past.
When I've said he wrote you know, half of the
lyrics on the last two days. That like I'm saying,
he doesn't care about it. That's not at all the
it's his process is living with it. He's singing to
himself internally all the time, and he doesn't like to commit.

(01:51:09):
He doesn't commit it down until it's gonna stay because
otherwise it's gonna change. So he doesn't like if he
would have done if he would have played me songs
with vocals done, the album already would have been out.
In the way he works, Yeah, I was gonna say,
I remember whatever day that Jesus came out. I remember

(01:51:34):
texting you maybe like three days before, just doing some okay,
is it going to happen or not? Because I think
they had a pushback date or whatever. It was like
a day that I was supposed to come out and
it didn't, and you were like, we're literally in the
middle of trying to wrap up, right now, and I

(01:51:57):
was like, wait a minute, if you're in the middle
trapping right like doing it right now? And then is
the record pressed up? And like I'm thinking in terms
of the old system where you had to turn it
in three months ahead of time, factory all those things,
and literally, well, even with Pablo, you guys were still
editing and changing it. And next thing I knew I

(01:52:18):
had three different versions of the Pablo record because he
just kept changing over again. I remember when we finished
Jesus and it came out about a week later. A
week or two later, kind of came to the studio
in Malibu and just we just started talking about what
do you think is next? Like what do you think
the next one is going to be like? And he
was kind of excited to at least start marching in

(01:52:42):
a direction, and we just started brainstorming and we had
an idea then that actually ended up it ended up
not being so much what not so much what Pablo
is like, But it has come around to that eventually.
But the but after we had a similar conversation the
end when Pablo got delivered, I was in Hawaii and

(01:53:03):
I remember getting, you know, new versions of the album
every day to listen to and give my notes. And
I was giving notes every day. It's like I just listened.
I would drive up and down the road here in
Kauai and listen and like, Okay, this is you know,
this is working. Let's remix this, let's try this, and
whatever notes, you know, anything that I could add to
help make it better. Um. And then I talked to

(01:53:26):
Kanye again, like it was now a ritual a couple
of weeks after the record comes out, and um, and
I said, oh, so, what are you thinking about? What
are you what are you working on? He's like, I'm
working on this mix on SO and so. It's one
of the songs on Pablo. It's like, that's out. What
are you talking about. It's like, well, yeah, it's out,
but I'm not done yet. Like really, It's like, I

(01:53:49):
it's just like, blew my mind. The conversation blew my
mind because up until well yeah, in my over the
course of my life, once it came out, that was it.
So to just that his ability to see pass well,
just because that's the way it always is. That means
the way it is. No, It's like if I want

(01:54:11):
to change it, I'll change it and I'll change as
many times as I want. It's incredible, blew my mind
loved it. Wow to me hearing hearing the Jesus record um,
And you know, I admit that i'd consume most of
my music now via my iPhone and my computer, not

(01:54:32):
in the same way that I would have, you know,
twenty years ago, like and put in the stereos and yeah,
that sort of thing. So first I was, I was,
the mix was just really harsh to me. And then
once I heard it at Madison Square Garden with no drums,
I mean, the thing was like, drums is almost non
existent on this record. And then I realized that, oh wow,

(01:54:58):
this album was made for stadiums and dadiums. Only when
you guys are working in the studio, are you blasting
the music at the highest levels possible? Like is he
violating the don't kill your ears in the studio thing?
Or because I was taught like when you're in the studio,
you're supposed to have soft volumes so that way you
don't kill your ears when you're mixing. But I know,

(01:55:21):
like rappers, not to pay him as quote rappers, but
I know that we you know, want to hear that
ship loud and you know, hit the ox button now
like that sort of thing. But uh, we listen. We
listen at realistic levels. So in other words, if the
thing we're making is meant to be heard loud, we

(01:55:43):
listen to it loud. And we don't have giant speakers.
We just use regular you know, like the monitors that
would sit on the desk. We don't use big giant monitors.
Um okay, Kanye uses some some big ones with with
that are much louder than the ones that we have
in the studio that I always requested to be turned

(01:56:04):
down because too much for me. Um, you're tu for
a while you were president of Columbia Records. Why did
you decide to take a desk job? And why? I
mean how how was the experience for that that that
tenure as president of Columbia. Uh, it was not a

(01:56:24):
desk job, which is why I entertained. And my thought was,
the thing that I do on Records has has very
little to do with music. It's like my style of production.
It would it would work regardless of whether it was music.

(01:56:45):
It's like a way to look at things. It's a
re contextualization of what we're working on and solving problems.
I happened to do it mostly in music because that's
just how it ended up. But the idea was to
apply the same like what would it be like to

(01:57:05):
produce a record company and um, and there were other
people to do though the desk work, and this was
to be more of a helping curate the best artists,
helping the artists make the best records that they can.
Basically the same thing that I do, except on a

(01:57:27):
bigger scale. And at the time we by the time
right till the end there Columbia Records went from sort
of a not great roster too, maybe the best roster
in the business at that moment in time. The corporate
politics of it were not something that that suited who

(01:57:48):
I am, and I didn't engage. So basically it would
be like if you're running for offer for office and
you're fighting with you're in a debate with someone who's
screaming at you and lying and cursing. I'm not doing that.
So ultimately the situation worked in a way where it

(01:58:14):
wasn't really good. It could have been great, and it
creatively was great, but had had the politics not come
into it, I think we would still be doing it
And will you ever establish a label? Well, I don't know.
There's a need to establish a label in whatever the

(01:58:34):
version of starting a deaf jam or or Deaf American
or Colombia. Will you ever dive in that pool? Again?
Are you fine with the zone that you're in right now?
If there are any acts that I want to work
with which are few and far between, that I want
to sign, then I have a relationship with Universal where
I can sign an act and it will be on

(01:58:56):
American and it will come out and I don't have
to have a staff. It's like they do the record
company part and I could be the creative partner. And
that feels about right. I mean, if there was a
reason to reinvent the label or help them get better,
I'd be open to discussing. It's like I like making.

(01:59:19):
I like the challenge of making something good whatever. It
is like figuring out how do we make this better.
I always wanted to ask you about Sir mix a
lot Man. What you signing him? My buddy, yeah, shout,
my my buddy. Dan charnis Um who yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah yeah. And he brought up a real we

(01:59:39):
had him on the show, like when we first started,
like a couple of years back, and he brought up
a really interesting thing I never really noticed about you
of like, he noticed you kind of tend to go
for kind of nasally mcs, like at rock Mix a Lot,
you know what I mean, they have that kind of
similar tone. Um, so I was curious, you know, like,
what how did you find out about Mix a Lot
and what la do you signed him? Uh? Loved the

(02:00:00):
record Posse on Broadway? Yes, yes it was your record.
Well this this is all I'm saying, and I'm so
glad you brought this up, fante, How did you I
never as a Philadelphia and I feel guilty for not
mentioning what your relationship to PSK was and by the

(02:00:24):
transit of Vaccium, how did you feel about the way
the entire West Coast sort of eight up that particular
style because that was with Sir Makes a Lot. That
was especially with the first in w A record. Every
song was like it was practically the West Coast. Like,

(02:00:50):
were you at all a where of the blueprint that
license to ill gave to the entire coast? Not really,
I think, probably too close to to see. How also,
you know, I come to realize later that Brass Monkey,
like there was no such thing as Miami Bass before
Brass Monkey, So it's like it it led to a

(02:01:11):
lot of different It had different tentacles that inspired people
in different ways, No, no doubt. So it mix a lot.
How do you like Plaston Bradway? And then how'd you
go about it? And I just reach out to him
and said, hey, if there's ever an opportunity to work together,
I'd love to do it, and then ended up working out.
He's like, well, I'm on my own label. I don't
really want to do that now. But and then eventually
came around like yep, I think I'm ready to do this.

(02:01:32):
Let's do this. American? Was that on American? Yes? Okay?
That was on That was on a Macdaddy album? Okay,
And I can't remember. I've heard mix a lot say
that I changed the tempo of it drastically in a
way that he loves, but like that I heard it
differently than he heard it. I don't really remember that,

(02:01:54):
but that I've heard him say that. He's saying that
you physically slowed it down. I think I sped it up.
They sped it up, but I'm not sure I honestly,
I don't remember it at all. He would he would
know better than I. I was gonna say, just back
on your American stage, there was a record you signed
that was. It really took me by surprise that you
signed them, because it was unlike anything that you would

(02:02:15):
ever sign or work with before the record. The Knots
were ultimate. I don't know if you remember American, Yeah
that was. That was a Dan Chariness signing. That was
my ship and I forgot. Yeah, of course a bad
Lad too? Is that n as well? I think so?

(02:02:38):
Damn Okay, I totally forgot about this too. So what's
your A and R is? You just pretty much let
them kind of do them, just like if y'all like it,
y'all believe in it, I'll funk with it. Like what
was your Roland? It was? It was a combination. It's
like if they were really passionate, either I had to
like it too, or if they were really passionate, it's
like this is the one. The whole idea of having
more A and R people was not just find stuff

(02:03:00):
for me. It was like if someone really was in
love with something, then it was exciting to see what
could happen, and it worked out in the case of
the if you like those records that Dan signed, and
if you like the Black Crows that George signed, then
it worked. I got warmer music question before I ask
you my last question, because we could be twelve hours working. Well,

(02:03:21):
I know that you produced, and I'm I'm a big
fan of the Strokes. I know that you worked on
the New Abnormal. First of all, did that title come
up in very last minute? No, in relation to where
we are now, because that that that's sort of a
apropos title, did not It just it was the title

(02:03:44):
that that um that Julian came up with the pre
pre virus, and it's again just sort of the universe
conspiring to make the art right. I'm assuming that they
recorded out in Hawaii with with you. We recorded in Malibu, Okay,

(02:04:06):
which I think is kind of different than all the
studios that they previously record recorded their music. And so
how hard was it to get the well oiled machine
of what the Strokes represented, especially in in the early auts,
and I know there was so much pressure on them
to be the next big thing in quotes like how

(02:04:29):
much of that was on their minds making this record,
because I can only assume that they took a ten
year hiatus because of the pressure of living up to
something that they couldn't sort of jump over, a hurdle
that they couldn't match or whatever. Well, I think that
the first record they put out was there considered there

(02:04:51):
like Breakthrough, that's the one that sort of lit everything up.
And the second, the second album seems like it didn't
change the world, but continued that and then since then
it's been more hit and miss um. So I don't
think they felt a tremendous I don't I didn't get

(02:05:12):
the sense that they felt a tremendous amount of pressure.
I think they felt like, let's make another album because
that's what we do. We haven't done it in a while,
and hoping it would be good. You know that it's
another like the Chili Peppers. They had asked me to
produce an album eight or ten years ago, and uh,
they sent me demos and I listened to demos, and

(02:05:35):
I just I couldn't hear. I couldn't imagine how this like,
how to make something that interesting with what they sent
like it didn't. It was just not a good starting point.
And and that's a no from you is does that
filter to them that, oh, ship, this might be bad.
I don't know. I just I just said I don't

(02:05:56):
think this is right for me. I don't I don't
see how to do this. And then on this album
they sent me demos and these were probably the worst
quality demos I've ever gotten from any artist, in that
one track might be a thirty second voice note on
the phone, like real, very very basic, like thumbnail sketches,

(02:06:25):
and I listened to that vis and it's like, Oh,
this is gonna be great. We gotta make this. It's
like I could I could feel what was there was inspiring.
It's like you could listen to a twenty second clip
and go, oh, if there was a song that sounded
like this twenty second clip, I'd listen to that all day.
Let's make that. So, is that the beginning of working

(02:06:47):
with you, like one has to send the roughest sketch
of a song before you can see the light to
see how you can develop it. Or does everyone do
the Kanye thing where it's damn near complete it and
then you just you can add the finishing touches to it.
There's no rule. There's no rule, it's um like, have

(02:07:08):
you ever built an album from the ground up? Like okay,
so less songwriting sessions, but like with the Chili Peppers,
I would come to rehearsals pretty early on. We would
probably go through they might they might have written a
hundred songs for every album we did, and we would
talk about him and narrow him down, and what was

(02:07:29):
it about under the Bridge that attracted you? The way
that it happened was just based on the lyric. It
was a lyric that I found in Amphonies, book of
of poetry, and I asked him what song is this?
And he said, that's not really Chili Pepper song. That's
more of a like personal thing, more of a poem.

(02:07:49):
And I said, well, how would you sing it if
you were to sing it? And he sang it for me.
He's like, he said, it's like it's a ballads not
it's not a Chili Peppers thing, and and he sang
it to me and I say, it's really beautiful. And
people like the Chili Peppers not necessarily because you're a
funk band with rap lyrics. People like the Chili Peppers

(02:08:12):
because they like the music you for guys make And
if this is an example of something good that you make.
I think I think people will accept that. It's like,
that's you don't have to put such a limitation on
what what the band is. It's like, it's about the band,
is about the people in it. What's so great about

(02:08:32):
the Beatles? If you listen to their early records and
their late records, they don't sound like the same band.
And that's just in seven years that arc? It is
there an act that you never with the exception of
Bill Whether and I know the stories of you pursuing them, Um,
is there an act that you would have liked to
have worked with it? You never got a chance to

(02:08:53):
a live alive or not alive or disbanded or not disbanded?
It well, obviously Beatles are led Zeppelin or any of
the like. Has McCartney ever approached you about producing a
record or Fishbone or you know, yeah, I met with
McCartney and talked about making something has not yet happened,
but you never know. I would be interested to see

(02:09:17):
how that works. What made you settle down into the
podcast world and was it the allure of doing it
with Malcolm Gladwell and was headlam or like, why do
you why is that now another part of your wait?
Can I give a small preface for this question? So
I did your very first podcast, correct, was that something
like that? One of the one of the one of

(02:09:37):
the first time is like the pilot. But yeah, mirria're
in there, Okay. I literally had no idea what I
was walking into because, you know, sometimes my business being
just a little bit jankie. So I was. I was
all my way to the studio thinking I was doing
a QLs episode because it was the same studio wherever

(02:09:59):
we interviewed Heather Hunter or that jazz studio that Steve recommended.
I got there and I was like, oh, ship, I'm
here to do a QLs episode with Malcolm Gladwell. And
then I was like, wait, where's where's lay and everyone at?
And then I was like, wait, Rick Rubin, you're on
this episode two? And I just winged it, and about

(02:10:20):
twenty minutes into it, I realized, oh, I'm here. I
gotta read my emails better. I'm here to do there.
That's the interview you gotta prepare for right in me
or like being an interview by at least those two.
Sometimes I fly with the seat, you know, with with
just freestyling a podcast show and having new clue what
I'm there for and just getting lucky. So when I

(02:10:43):
did their episode, I literally went to that building thinking
it's a Malcolm Gladwell episode of Quest Love Supreme. And
then when I saw Rick Rubin's face on the television
thing because he did it by monitor, I was hella confused.
I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing here?
I had to run another room and like call, like,
wait what am I doing? Because you're doing someone's fun.

(02:11:05):
How did new it? So? But yeah, talk about why
you even chose to put that into coinity. Uh was
friendly with Malcolm and I loved his podcast, Revisionist History,
and he told me he had an idea to do
a new podcast around music and asked if I would
be interested in being involved, and I thought, I'm a

(02:11:27):
fan of his work. Be fun, it's like dudes up
with Malcolm. I wouldn't have normally, Uh, I probably wouldn't
have chosen to do a music podcast on my own
at that time, just because I feel like talk about
music most of the time in my normal life. It's
almost like the podcast would be to talk about something
else that I'm interested in. I don't even know what
that would be like. There are a lot of things,

(02:11:49):
so it's hard to say I never thought about it,
But this was more his invitation made it seem like, oh,
that'd be fun. I love what he does, so maybe
I'll learn something about podcasting doing something with him. Yeah,
it seems like y'all don't ever have to worry about guests.
So I was I was kind of cramming and I
was listening. I was just about to say, like, yeah,

(02:12:11):
that was like, especially when you talked about like beyond moments.
We were had made a note about that in the
moments that are just beyond, and you were talking about
how just these moments in your life where it's like
if you did not do one thing, these other things
wouldn't happened, like if you would have stayed in Chicago.
Chicago right back, we were listening together. Yeah, yeah, we
we have a lot of mutual friends in common. So

(02:12:34):
just hearing of your evolution, your spiritual evolution, your physical evolution.
You know you you've been definitely uh kind of a
life goal mission for me at least where you are
with your life and everything, Like what's your daily routine?
And I know, like surfings played a part of it,

(02:12:54):
and all that stuff in Kauaie. Now I've been doing
a ninety minute walk every morning on the beach, barefoot,
a lot of sun and listening to podcasts that ninety
minutes that's that's where I listened to you. If I
listen to one of your pieces, it'll be while I'm
walking on the beach. And that's the very first thing
every day. And I get that out of the way

(02:13:15):
and then I can start focusing on work or whatever
else there is to do for the rest of the day.
But I feel like having that right when I wake
up because if I wait, if I wait an hour,
I won't do it. Facts that's me. And if I
wait an hour, not only will I won't do it,

(02:13:37):
I'll eat. You do something you do some definitely eat
because if I'm sitting around and I'm hungry, if I'm
walking for ninety minutes, I'm not thinking about food because
I'm involved in the podcast or book on tape and
I'm walking and enjoying myself and my mind is completely
occupied because I'm very you know, I listen to things

(02:13:57):
that I'm interested in and learned stuff and it's great.
I look forward to it every day. I feel like
I run out of time, you know, Like I listened
in the car on the way I listened on the
beach walk, I listened on the way back. And then
usually I have stuff to do to start my day,
and it's like, but but I have so much more
research to do, I have so many more things to
listen to, and I run out of time. Yeah, that

(02:14:19):
has coquarantine been like for you? Rick? What? What? What
is what changes quarantine? Like just kind of how we're
in quarantine now and kind of be in lockdown. What
is that like for you? It hasn't changed so much
other than the fact that we're in Kauaii because normally
we wouldn't normally be in quiet now, we'd be in Malibu,
but because Malibu is locked down, Kauai is lockdown. Two.

(02:14:39):
We were here in over the holidays and we were
going back to start I was going back to start
a new Avid Brothers album first week of March, and
then I got a call days before saying, hey, stuff's
getting sketchy. We're thinking maybe we should just stay home.
And it's like, perfect, I'm staying here. You guys, stay home.

(02:14:59):
Let's you know, let's wait a minute and figure out
what's happening. And that leads us to today. How severe
is it in Hawaii right now? As far as there
are no cases on the island, which is unbelievable. This island,
there's no there. There are seven islands of Kauai there,
you know, half hour flight apart, but this this one

(02:15:22):
has none in Kauai has like a lower population. Yes,
it's very few people and they're far apart, and it's
a great place to be on quarantine. Again, we if
we weren't here, I don't think we would have come
here for it. But the fact that we were here
and the opportunity arose, it seemed like a good choice.
The universe again was smiling on us. Still still have

(02:15:46):
those uh those dogs? I saw you once with the
dogs with the mop I have. I have one. His
name is Champa. I had too before him named. The
current dog's name is a yellow. The two prior work
Chomp and Monday Chumping. Monday passed away at nineteen years old,

(02:16:09):
and now Chompa is Monday's brother, brother's son. I think
so in the family and he's probably twelve now. It
wasn't a pack of them I could have sworn as
seem like a family of them. I have you before,
and now I have one. I saw one and then
the other one the other follow wherever one would go, Okay,

(02:16:32):
I remember that. Yeah, I want to know, man, do
you still when you're working out your ideas? Um? Are
you like still making tracks or does it start on
an instrument? How do you flesh out the ideas that
you may have? It really depends. I don't. I don't
do it for the sake of doing it. So it's
more like if there's a reason to make something, if
there's a from working on a project that needs a

(02:16:54):
piece of music that needs to start with me, which
I'd prefer not to do. I like. I like laborating.
I like hearing something and finding pieces that I could
make into the thing that that I want to make,
as opposed starting from scratch. I have to start from scratch.
I can, but it's not my favorite thing to do.
UM And if it is, I'll either make a beat
on a drum machine or I'll start with a sample

(02:17:17):
and then build up a track around the sample and
then either keep the sample in, remove the sample, mess
with the sample. Yeah, are you using like Ableton, or
like what software? We usually do everything in pro Tools,
although it's still you know, just still out of you know.
I don't know any better, and I don't know how
to ren pro tools. I don't really I'm not a
technical person at all. I just can say I like it,

(02:17:40):
like this, let's change this beat. When you take on
a project, do you stay on that project or are
you able to hop from project to project? Like uh, okay,
I'm gonna work with Chili Pepper is at the studio
on Monday and then running do the Dixie Chicks next
week over there and blah blah blah, like or are
you stay? I do you? You hire me? And we

(02:18:04):
If it's over three months, then we're in trouble, Like
how do you schedule the first one? Because it's I
don't think it's possible to say we're gonna put three
months on hold and in that three months we're gonna
make the best album the world has ever heard. I don't.
I don't. I don't believe in that. I don't believe

(02:18:25):
it's possible. Maybe some people can do it, I don't know.
I don't know how that works. So every project has
its own rhythm and as I said, sometimes it happens
very quickly. Sometimes it takes a long time, and I
don't I try not to do it as much as
possible based on my schedule. It's always about the artist schedule.

(02:18:48):
And when I say the artist schedule, I don't mean
the artist schedule of women want to go on vacation.
I mean the artist schedule of when the idea is hot,
you know, when the songs are ready. We have to
find a way that, when the moment is right to

(02:19:08):
make it, that we can make it. And I can
think of very few times in my life where it
hasn't worked out where at a time I might have
been making five albums at the same time, back in
the days when I would have to go from studio
to studio. It might be We're doing overdubs with this
artist and I'm working on just vocals with another artist

(02:19:31):
on a different album at a at same time. Maybe
I do noon to noon to three with one artist
and three to six with another artist that way, or
maybe I'm doing pre production with one and working on
mixing with another, and it could be as many as
four or five or six going on same time. It's
not unusual because some of them could go on for years.

(02:19:52):
You know. I work with engineers and each project usually
I try to have an engineer dedicated to that particular project,
like a tag team partner. So and and also I
like to work like in the old days, I used
to work all night, drive home as sun was coming up.

(02:20:13):
Now I'm on an early schedule, so I like to
have the session started like noon or one, and I
like to be done by six. Now that doesn't mean
like on the Strokes album which uh we just you
know made recently just came out three weeks ago or something.
I would come from noon to six, and then I

(02:20:35):
would leave a list to do list so the band
could go on working as late as midnight if they,
you know, they band could work as long as they
want and have a list of things to do in
addition to anything that they would want to try on
their own. And then the next morning I would come in,
we would review what happened the night before, and then
we would start on the day's work. I gotta try it. Yeah,

(02:20:57):
And and and I've also, by by making a lot
of albums, have come to realize when my voice is
particularly helpful in the process, and sometimes it's in pre
production it means a lot. In the basic track, it
means a lot. Getting the vocals, it means a lot.
But many of the other times, during overdubs, during guitar solos,

(02:21:21):
I usually, if I trust the artist, I let them
do it, and then I might come in, Like with
Tom Morello, if we're doing on either Rage record or
an Audio Slave record, He'll do solos on everything, and
then I might come and say, you know, those are
all great, and this one's not as good like we
gotta and then maybe redo this, or if there's ever
ones where it's like, let's work on this one together

(02:21:42):
for some reason. If you if you can't crack the
code on his own, then we'll do it together. But
I don't like to hold an artist's hand. I don't
like to um. Ultimately, if the artist feels like they've
done everything themselves, that's the best feeling for me. Like
I don't want I don't want it to I don't

(02:22:02):
want the process to be about me. Uh, life lessons
I want and only life lessons. Don't make it about
you and walk the first thing in the morning. I
don't want the process to be ugly for you. See,
that's the one thing, because you know who downstairs always says, See,

(02:22:24):
Rick walks early in the morning, and you don't do that.
So now I'm gonna have to wake My answer is six,
and you wake up. Your first thing is because I'll
create a bunch of excuses I have to get up
at six and walk. All right, thank you, Rick. I
will now reach my goal of to pounds. I'm gonna

(02:22:45):
walk because Rick said, Because Rick said so. Anyway, Rick, dude,
this is this has been what like four years in
the making. Yes, exactly. I have a suggestion quest, which
is every day for the next let's make it three weeks,

(02:23:08):
when you go on your walk, just send me a
message at the end saying I walked this a long today.
Just just a little check in, like, hey, did this today?
Accountability I will do so. Yes, just about accountlitner. I'm
about accountability, and I'm about integrity. Yes, about integrity. To

(02:23:28):
twenty is right around the bin. I'm ready for this ship.
You can send a group text to all of us
and we'll go, Yeah, we finished ours too, y'all gonna
be alright. So I'm the half of Sugar Steve. I'm

(02:23:49):
paid bill by Fontagelo and be great incomparable Rick Rubin
four years. We've been dying for this. My name is us.
Love this plus Love Supreme. We will see you on
the next round. Thank you urs. Love Supreme is a

(02:24:20):
production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.

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