Tariq "Black Thought" Trotter

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Here we go.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Suprema Suprema role called the Supreme Suprema role, called Suprema
Supremo role, called Suprema s Supremo role.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
He is the best. Yeah, nothing to prove. Yeah, we
get the honor.

Speaker 4 (00:28):
Yeah, Suprema Suprema.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
My name is Fante. Yeah, back on the block with
my man Rigs yaphi coto.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Suprema ro Suprema. My name is Sugar. Yeah, I shall proceed.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Yeah to eat your shrewd and smoke your weeds. So
prim so primo primo.

Speaker 5 (01:08):
So I'm unpaid, Bill, I'm not better than you. Yeah,
but thanks to Fante, Yeah, I'm a better rapper than you.

Speaker 6 (01:28):
Yeah, and my favorite yeah who else?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah it's yeah, I give all y'all that, but y'all
gonna have to chill. Yeah, I know I'm gonna have to.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Rap sound Supremo, roll up premoch sup.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Who wait?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
You know like dot X will stop a bar like
like he will stop a bar fourteen.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Before he finishes.

Speaker 7 (02:21):
I did.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
I did because like too many times and there's a
really long pause. Yeah, I can get used to this.
This is another in person Yeah, classic dust Dusting.

Speaker 6 (02:36):
One of the most anticipated episodes of all Quest Loove
Supreme Time.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Exactly the amount of times that Like has been in
the group chat. When is this going to happen? When
is this going to happen? I don't know for me.
If you're old enough to know the reference, this will
feel like the anytime that Eddie Murphy comes on the
r Show where it's like, how do you add professional

(03:02):
with someone that you've known for four decades of all
your life? Like, you know, this is another episode of
Quest Love Supreme Ladies and Gentlemen, Quest Love and Wait,
where the hell are we? Like go back in time?

Speaker 3 (03:16):
It's like an old.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Time streshold recording studio. Yes, I feel like I'm in
nineteen thirty six and also nineteen ninety six. Yo, it's
also too.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Today is the I guess the thirteenth or twelfth anniversary
of an undone drop today? December sixth.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Wow, let's say that's awesome. Twelfth, twelve year twelve, right,
I think it's twelve.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, I'm getting numb to roots album anniversaries. I know, right,
I got so many of them.

Speaker 7 (03:44):
I know, man, what a beautiful privilege. That's beautiful?

Speaker 1 (03:47):
All right? So yeah, sugar, Steve, how's life good? That's
night Bill? You made it? What's up?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Mn?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Happy to be here.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
You gave me like a half a second and say
how was like?

Speaker 1 (03:56):
I was like, house, like great, great, I'm paying Bill.
What's going on?

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Great?

Speaker 5 (04:01):
Everything's good. I'm happy to be here. I thought I
wasn't gonna be here at the weather sort of me here.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Okay, that's awesome. Uh F tikeolo. This is the first
time we're talking to you after seeing the documentary. Man,
was a response.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's been amazing, man, kind of overwhelming. But uh no, man,
it's yeah. It's being received exactly how we want to
be received. We made it with a lot of love,
and we get a lot of love back. So check
it out a little bit. Go check it out, all right,
And what's the next move after the documentary? I don't know.
I mean, I just we literally, so we finished this.

(04:37):
We finished the doc November seventh, We had our first
screen in November nine, and then we released it November
twenty fourth. So I ain't trying to do shit a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'm just yeah, we don't know about that life not
doing it.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, I'm not doing shit. Hey, I hear man right
back to rap, back to the lag.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, I mean, I will say that, you know, it's
real good to see because it was also just like
unprecedented territory because not since maybe Metallica's Some kind of
Monster have us seen a documentary of a group really
do self analytical work, because normally it's just like cutting
place and then nineteenth thirty and we did this and no, no, no, no,

(05:21):
no no, and then you know that sort of undone
unsung methods, and so yeah, it was good to watch.
And actually our guest today and myself were at the
very beginning of our process.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
So we're finna bite jack that whole concept. I really
really break off ship, Like, yo, man, how come we
you know what I mean? Like you down to the
to the very last compound and ship.

Speaker 6 (05:47):
That's what you do with the youth though, y'all you've
put themselves out there and then we you know, how's
it going.

Speaker 7 (05:55):
I'm good. I am so happy that we finally got.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
This done, ladies and gentlemen. We have literally one of
the best wordsmiths that ever entered the realm of hip hop,
which sort of sounds like an empty intro, but it's
it's actually literally true. What actually makes this even more
special appropose that we're here kind of to celebrate a

(06:19):
new chapter in your life, which is kind of you
opening up to the world because you've been very mysterious
to the entire world. And yes, it's awkward as fuck
giving introduction. No, but I absolutely make no buns. Buns,

(06:42):
you don't make buns. No, I don't about no, I
absolutely make no bones about our guest today being not
only just one of the greatest people of all time,
but you know, it's like, I don't know how to
refer to Tuik because he's literally probably been the most
consistent figure in my life period. Like I've seen him

(07:04):
on a regular basis for the last thirty seven years
of my life. Like I haven't done that with my mother,
my father and my sister, any girlfriend. Like it's kind
of my work spouse, which I don't even have shame
in that. Man. This is this is, this is a commitment.
The greatest of all time. Tariq Black Thought Trotter is

(07:26):
on Costloft Supreme Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Platform, thank you, thank you, sir. So God, oh God,
see that Arsenio ednything started already before every for any
l moment, there's always here in the background.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
God is great.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
God. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Initially my plan was like to lay back and let
the four of you go at it, to ask whatever,
but even I have questions. I'm mid read of.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
The book right now.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
But since you are bursting at the seams, start.

Speaker 7 (08:07):
Okay, Well, let's just start with this.

Speaker 6 (08:09):
The fact that this is one of the most anticipated projects,
at least in our circle of people. We've been waiting
to hear your story for probably the last couple decades.
So I want to know why now and why the
way that you decided to do and how you and
not why the way you decided to do it, but
how you decided.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
To do it.

Speaker 6 (08:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
I think the the why now of it all is
I kind of feel like now or never, you know
what I mean, Like there's a certain urgency that is
very tangible that you know, is to I don't know,
I feel like there is like it's time to do
all all the things right we have to, you know,
sort of do it or not, you know what I'm saying.

(08:52):
So for me, it was it was now or never.
It was you know, if not now, then when it
was you know, why not now? And you know all
different ways that I could you know, self sabotage in
my mind and worst case scenario without I was able
to resolve, you know. And and yeah, it just felt like, uh,
you know the best move both h you know, for me,

(09:14):
for my sanity, for my mental peace, and you know,
just to give people who have been longtime supporters of
the route something new to latch onto and you know,
something to identify with and you know, something that they're
able to you know, see representation of themselves in to
some extent hopefully. Yeah, it just felt very necessary.

Speaker 7 (09:33):
So and real quick, what's this process?

Speaker 6 (09:36):
Because I told Fante this morning, we've been talking about
your book a lot, and between May the Lord watch
his documentary and the Upcycle self, they're very special because
we are seeing not just our two of our favorite
artists to our favorite MC's, but we are seeing two
black men of certain ages reveal themselves in ways that
we may not be used to seeing film wise and

(09:57):
on paper. So when talking to Fontan and knowing that
he started his process years ago because the onion has
to be peeled, how does that work for you? As
far as yet, I'm going to do this book, I'm
going to bring this, but I know you had to
go through the.

Speaker 7 (10:12):
Okay, do I want to talk about this or I
do I want to talk about that? And I ain't
gonna do that, but somebody had to go to you. No,
you have to do that. You have to say these things.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
How do you do that? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, Well this isn't my first attempt at a memoir,
you know what I'm saying. So I feel like maybe
I feel like this is a third time, So third
times a charm, you know what I'm saying. I partnered
it up with a couple of different people, you know,
the collaborators in the past, and you know, great minds,
and we've got you know, hours of hours of interview

(10:45):
uh you know, audio and video stuff, and we took
you know, lots of notes and so that did all
of the all of the you know, like the groundwork.
But yeah, I wasn't able to get through the process
in either of those instances. And I think in this
dynamic like between me and Jasmine Martin. Jasmine is from Philadelphia,
you know what I'm saying. As them, we've worked together

(11:07):
on so many different things over the past five or
six years or so. We had just did a comparable
sort of project for Audible during Quarantine in seven years. So,
like the bones were there. So it was just about,
you know, how are we going to approach it? And
we wrote this book the way that we would record

(11:28):
an album or work on a screenplay or do anything
for musical theater. It was sort of you know, from
the inside out, you know what I'm saying on some
Quentin Tarantino shit. I think that that's the beauty of
you know, just being it being my first time, you
know what I mean doing the thing. There's a there's
a blitz they you know, they don't say ignorance is
bliss for nothing, right, So there's something in the just

(11:49):
the abandon of not knowing better, not knowing the right
way to do a thing, so you just do it,
you know, like the artistic or you know, most efficient
or creative way. And that's what I'm experience right now.
How many years was this book in the making. It
took about a year and a half two years, okay, yea.
And the first two attempts that you made at doing
the kind of this biography, what made those I guess

(12:14):
the wrong attempts? Like what what didn't work about those
I think it was just the relate, like I was
sort of relinquishing my my story, you know what I mean.
And in both of those situations, it was almost as
if I was along for the ride because these were
too far more experienced authors and you know what I mean,
people that I had, you know, I still have a

(12:35):
great deal of respect for, but they just aren't famil
like you know, no one could tell your story the
way you can tell it, you know. But I wasn't,
you know, ready, for whatever reason, to tell it myself.
So I figured by you know, just association, I would receive,
you know, the same sort of validation as if I,
you know, if I just you know, jump jumped out
there on my own. And that wasn't the case. And

(12:56):
uh yeah, I just it wasn't ready, you know what
I mean. Things happened when they as they should, you know,
and I don't think either of those, you know, like respectfully,
it just wasn't you know, like the right situation or time,
you know what I'm saying. I get it. When in
writing this book, did you have to have conversations? We
had Will on the show and he was talking about how,
you know, he had to have conversations with family and
people like, yo, this is coming. Did you have to

(13:19):
have those talks with your people on how did they go?

Speaker 1 (13:21):
I had.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
I had some of those talks with you know, people
whose opinion you know what I mean, who it mattered
to me how they feel, and yeah, you know, like
there was lots that we had to omit, you know
what I mean, Like my uncle who is my father's brother,
my oldest year surviving relative. He you know, he likes
to talk and he has no filter, you know what

(13:42):
I'm saying. Once you get in your eighties, it's like, yeah,
so yeah, there's very much that had to be omitted,
and you know, some names had to be changed with
then there was a bunch of names that were left
in there. And those are the people, you know, I
had to holler at like my auntie now you know
what I'm saying, Like you know, like you go be good,
you and you and then you know, some homies, like

(14:03):
there were a couple of people who I grew up
with who just some minor inconsistencies, Like there was one
thing that I saw, like in the book, it says
that these two kids that my boys started this organization
of writers called T E T. And they didn't start
T E T. They weren't even they weren't ain't even right.
You know what I'm saying. Now, When I was doing
the audio book, I caught it because I did my

(14:24):
own audio book, so I caught it and I corrected it.
But you know, I wasn't gonna have to. You got
to come out the pocket if it's like, oh, yes,
one more thing I want to change. So it's like, yeah,
they just has to stay in there. But I hit
them up, like yo, you know you read the book,
it's going to say X, Y and Z. I mean
not really, you know, to make sure it was good
with the dudes who were credited at starting the group,
but to make sure it was good with the dudes

(14:45):
who were in it, and you know, they had nothing
to do with T E T. You know what I'm saying.
But every everybody's all good. And folks that I grew
up with, like people from my block, like like who
you know were in the in those scenarios, in those
moments in time that that that I reconjured in the book,
have read it and told me that it was a

(15:05):
great read and that it was you know, the transportive
and in the way that we intended it to be.
In the book, you talk about specifically a fight you
and the Meer had in London and how that changed
the course of you guys relationship in some way. How
do you think it changed y'all? How did that change

(15:26):
'all dynamic? Well, you know, I think, uh, if if
you if you have a close friend, you and a
close friend get in, you're like come to you know,
a fisticuffs like you're come to blows, something that's forever changed. Right.
If it's between two people who are used to fighting
all the time, then you know it's sometimes just far

(15:47):
little like with it that change is you know, I mean,
it's less significant then if that's somebody's only fight, Like
I'm going through my mind, I can't remember how many
fights I have been and I don't even stomped out.
I mean I win, some lose, some bunch of fights
and ship it. If that's like your only fight, if
you had like one, two, three altercations, then yeah, I
would think it would be just more impactful. So that's

(16:09):
just how I understood it, you know what I mean.
I think for me, it was something that like later
that day I moved on, like you know what I'm saying,
definitely again, like there was something had been changed, but
it was such a insignificant change for me. But yeah,
I just feel like in our mirrors, you know, world,
there was something that uh, you know, there was a

(16:30):
line that had been crossed that you know what I'm saying,
we could never sort of un cross, you know. And funeral.

Speaker 7 (16:42):
That was.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Like that was a quick fist couple of more wrestling
like wrestling.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
It was.

Speaker 7 (16:52):
It was it was it was wrestling joint amy or
did you get it.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
I just sat on top of him, was like, I
never re this situation.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
But the thing is like when you're in my size,
like people just rightfully think like I'm never fucking with him.
So I never had a fight my life. That was
the only fight I've ever had in my life.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
It's kind of weird.

Speaker 6 (17:19):
Do y'all understand that for the majority of the public,
they don't really get to see, like, you know, to
you writing a whole chapter about a mirror and how
you guys met at how y'all connected in real life?
People watch y'all and they watch you on the stage.
They watch him from drums, but they really don't see
y'all ever connect. And I gotta say as a fan

(17:42):
and I feel like family friends not so much. But
I remember, I said to Fant this morning, I said,
I remember the one time and the first time that
I saw y'all like embrace, right.

Speaker 7 (17:53):
I remember how it felt to see it. I remember
where I was.

Speaker 6 (17:56):
I was at the Black Lily, at the five Spot.
I felt emotional because it was just something that I
hadn't seen.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Y'all.

Speaker 6 (18:06):
Y'all was having a private conversation at the bar, was
having a private conversation at the bar. And it wasn't
like a let me hug you, bro, but it was
just like a show of affection that I had.

Speaker 7 (18:15):
Never seen between the two of you. And I'm just curious,
are y'all coind?

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I thought I was just like, oh, I'll see you tomorrow,
But y'all don't do I see.

Speaker 6 (18:21):
You tomorrow, hug bro, I'll see you tomorrow. Like that's
not something that people are used to seeing.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's weird, Okay. So I have despite whatever the perception,
the whatever, my like, I don't know what people think
they see me like, I've heard I'm super arrogant. I
hear I'm happy, go lucky.

Speaker 7 (18:37):
Or are you a little disconnected? Sometimes?

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I'm very loof I hear that at But the
one thing I had to work on the pandemic was
really letting go of old ideas and perceptions. And the
one thing that I was always taught that my dad
always taught me. And that's basically because he went through
a situation with the business that he started with his brothers,
and one of his big rules was always like, you know,

(19:03):
never start business with family. You can never ever mix
business in your friendship. Da da da da. And I've
seen the told that that business took on my dad,
like we we lost, he lost so much money. We Yeah,
I think I met it on the show, like we
lived three years without gas in the house and it

(19:24):
was like either a private school.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
For a mere or a gas This is before Kappa.
Oh yeah, there's is some crazy shit with me.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
So that said I always like, once I realized, oh,
we're running a business, then I wondered, like, well, I
wonder how like well shit change? Like will we still
spend the night at each other's house? Like can we
be friends? Or am run a business? So I was

(19:55):
and even when I joke about the Grifven Door Slytherin thing.
In my mind, it was all always like, now that
we have a business, I should keep a professional distance
so that the business can last long. But I also
knew that I was sacrificing because I do miss those
times where like we just hang out and you know,
watch movies and all that stuff. But in my mind,

(20:17):
I think I was carrying a lot of my father's
beliefs I started carrying on my own. And the one
thing I thought about was like, oh, man, I mean
when Uncle Rosie and Dad and so now that I'm
starting business with so it's like a brother than me.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
I could never do that. I mean, there's something to that, right,
you know what I'm saying, like that isn't like lots
of OG's have that philosophy, and it's not for you know,
not for nothing. And you know, like just to speak
to that same sort of you know thing, you know,
I mean, Sean and I You've showing who manages the roots.
That is my cut. That's who I'm talking. That's who

(20:53):
that nigga just left when I burned down the house.
He yeah, the fuck it. His spot on the on
the floor was still warm, but you know, we grew
up only you know, two years apart from one another,
and just really close as cousins in the same way
that our mothers were. They were like sisters, but they
were aunt and niece, and he and I were, you know,

(21:14):
great cousins, but you know we were more like brothers.

Speaker 7 (21:17):
Hotfully about that too.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
I mean we went to you know, college together, that
whole thing. But once he became you know, the roots
business manager, and once he partnered up with Rich, there
was something that I mean, it changed, like there's something
that changed, and I always wondered, you know, it's like,
you know, we used to kick it all the time.
We go get drinks, we go we at parties, we
you know what I mean. I talked to you in
the morning, we're on the phone, and there's something that
there is a you know, uh, consciousness of maintaining the

(21:43):
business bar that I think. I mean, there's a there's
something admirable and being able to separate the professionalism, you
know what I mean in that way. You know what
I mean, It's like he and I have brothers showing
and our cousins. I don't think that's ever gonna change.
But for the brand's sake, for the sake of the business. Yeah,
you know what I'm saying, Sometimes you gotta do what
you gotta do. So I mean, I completely understand, you know,

(22:05):
I know, like there are lots of other examples that
have been set, you know what I mean, other cats,
other you know, artists that have been collaborative in a
comparable way, but none of them have stood the test
of time that we have. So it must be something
to that shit, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
It is weird though, once uh once during the bionic
period of Bionics. Sorry, this is what two thousand and three,
I think two thousand and two, two thousand and three,
I caught Dayla in a twenty minute, candid moment. I
forget where we were, either like a photo shoot or
something like that, and I was far away, but I

(22:37):
was keeping my eye on them, and I was like,
wait a minute, they actually like each other. Yeah, because
it's also a thing where you got to understand that to.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Endure.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
And we can't stress enough the amount of stress and
turmoil those first like four years were where daily every
day like my one dream of why this has to
work is I can never I will never ever go
back to fifty two twelve O Sage Avenue. I don't
know if you remember Jungle Fever, when that moment where

(23:15):
Annabella Schior had to, like in a moment of defeat,
have to come back home to her dad. And my
worst nightmare was this one because even before things fall apart,
like every day I had to deal with hearing my
dad sort of say like you got to get a
real job, and or you're doing a video, but was
a cable bill and what about the electric bill? And

(23:36):
d da da da da da. So my mind like
it's like I can never But the thing is is
that we have to be in tight the way that
you describe being on that tour, in like tight circles,
Like I've never spent that much amount of time with
any human that long. So it's like you gotta maintain

(23:57):
a professional relationship and your brothers and you know, and
again I'm just I'm going you you're gonna live out
the examples of what.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Was getting what you know, like there were some people
who were in the roots who did that to the extreme.
Like it's a delicate balance, you know what I mean.
You have cats who I mean, on more than one occasion,
more than one member of the roots who we we
travel they act like they ain't even they don't know.
It's like yeah, like like dude, like we ain't fucking

(24:27):
you gotta be Calicutta right now, like we all we
got you, like you know what I'm saying, Like we
didn't come together, but you know, and I think it
was you know in that.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
I think people did that for some of the same reasons.
But it's just extreme, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
It's weird you mentioned the hook thing because there's one
moment I remember, which was at Dyla's funeral, and.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
I believe either John or my Duke's saw said like
shot me, not shot me. Look, because everyone was sitting
in the front row and of course, you know, me
carries a flag for Diyler like I should be, but
I wanted to sit in the back. And it seemed
kind of odd because it was a large church, but
it wasn't that many people. It was like maybe forty

(25:16):
fifty people in a place that could hold like three hundred.
Like dyl is buried in the same cemetery that Michael
Jackson and Elizabeth Taylor are, so it's like a large,
sprawling estate, but there's only like fifty people.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
There, and I purposely sat like in the last row,
like with seventeen rows like ahead of me, of emptiness.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
And at the time my girlfriend was like, well, why
are we sitting back here? And I was just like,
it's so foolish now. But my whole thing was like,
oh man, I can't let Tarik see me in a vulnerable,
weak moment, which is again I was whatever it is
you can never hold pre twenty twenty meters.

Speaker 6 (26:02):
Now look at it, like, now that we've read the
book and we have had these conversations in the last
seven years, is about you know, I had moments reading
that book, even when Trek was describing your home situation
like with the past inside.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Now you know what I remember when broke into my crib.
What I remember by Dyla's funeral was yeah, definitely, you know,
like just how you know, gargantuan, the sort of the
space was. We were only in the first few rows
and stuff. But yeah, I remember being like, Yo, where
where the fuck is I'm here at you know what
I'm saying. And then I just remember like when it

(26:39):
was over. I think at one point like I connected
Dave New York. When it was over, I hugged. I
fucking cried, Like that was the first time I was
able to, Like I hadn't cried the whole time of
hearing you know what I mean, throughout the whole shit.
I saw a mirror after the funeral and I just started.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Balling start right, and it was such So it felt
weird to me because, like I mean, teen, such a
professional distance thing. But this is like, ah, shit, now
I gotta switch the light on and go back to
nineteen ninety one when we were born, you know what
I mean? After that?

Speaker 6 (27:11):
Do you go back after the hug and he embrace?
Does it slowly open up things?

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Or do you go back to So here's the funny thing,
all right, So I'm in, you know, and I've shared
my psychological journey and all that stuff. So I did
a session once and I kind of slipped and she said, well,
you know, what was Tarik's opinion on that?

Speaker 3 (27:34):
And I was like, well, it's cool, you know whatever.
He said, no, no, what do you say for Batim?
I said, well, he ain't say it, but it'll be cool.
She's like, wait, how how long do you talk to Tuik?
And she's the kind of person so she's the kind
of person that if she sees a scab, she'll just
start scratching, scratching, and it's like, yo, I got other issues.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
I got you know, mother issues.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Let's talk.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, right. She kept wanting to go there, and I'm
trying to like matrix bullet dodge, and she clearly saw
my discomfort and she was just asking basic questions like well,
how long do you talk? Does do we know that
like you're in therapy and da da da da, and
that you're turning new leaf?

Speaker 3 (28:16):
And I was like, cool on man, where I'll touch
you feel you know the thing like where you like
you don't say like, oh I love you man? And
you know.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
And I had a hard time just come to grips
with myself, like looking in the mirror and all that stuff.
And so what she the way that she sort of
gets me. The part that I never reveal is her
methods a little bit different. Let's just say there's a
certain amount of cash, money and escrow in which I

(28:45):
have to in this December, so I'm gonna have to
start write a contract of what my goals are for
twenty twenty four. And if I don't stick to that,
then she will present my worst nightmare, which is, Okay,
I'm gonna take this money and donate it all to
the EP. No, no, no, no, okay, okay, I'll stop
eating sugar. I'll stop eating sugar.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
And it's almost like she has to she has to
mind trick and force me to do cause I'll just
say like, yeah, i'll talk to him next week, next week,
next month, next week.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
So here's the thing. So it's it's it's almost akin
to that of like you know when you get a
girl's number in high school and you're in the mirror,
like I'm in the mirror my dressing room, like all right,
so you know, I'm in therapy and like I'm rehearsing
my lines like a week ahead of time and shit,
and she's like calling me, all right, so what did
UIK say about your thing? And I was like, all right,

(29:34):
all right, all right, I'm gonna do it. I'm gona
do it. She's like, I'm gonna take this money. And
your relationship is a hostage negotiation.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Hearing right, like I'm the person that has to be
threatened to do the right thing, like I'll expose you
if you don't, you know, take care of yourself.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
So I was like all right, I said, so uh
and there's like doing the pandemic.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
So I was like all right, reek, yeah, so you know,
I'm kind of doing self work and stuff and you know, microducing.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Here we go, right, so I got my life together.
I'm micro So I did like so I did like
this whole ship and I mentioned one of the people
and I was like, yeah, so you know, I'm reading
this book by this guy named doctor Joe Despenza and
he talks about how like communications.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Like oh yeah, doctor Joe, Yeah, I'm done with that.
And in my head, I'm like, holy shit, wait what
does he know about that? I said, you know about
that joke? It's like yeah, you know years ago when
you know, when I first started therapy and the like
holy shit, you're in therapy like I was.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
And when I got back, I was like, yo, I
didn't know. I thought I was the only one like
doing the self improvement thing, and treeks like beat me
by like years really years?

Speaker 7 (30:56):
Really?

Speaker 6 (30:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, he was like four years ago.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
I started in twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
He was like what was fifteen? Well, you know, I man,
I've become close friends with a fellow named Kyle Vaines
and Kyle. He worked with me and Mark Jenkins and
Ray Angry. He was like a supplement dude. Well you
know that worked at this you know, this gym that
we were training that whenever Mark would come to work

(31:21):
with D'Angelo, we would all, you know, I mean be
working down in the financial district at this spot. So
at one point Kyle dis closed to Ray and I
about how his girlfriend at the time, his fiance was
a huge Roots fan. You know, she was terminally ill
and really the only thing that was getting her through
was our song Tomorrow, the one with you know, Me

(31:42):
and Ron Rahem and yeah, so you know, she she
wound up, you know, transitioning. We all kept in touch,
and as luck would have it, we were out in
La I think, like her funeral, her memorial was like
a few days before we would have been out there
for Grammys or whatever. So me and Ray went out
there early, performed at her memorial and became, you know,

(32:03):
closer friends with Kyle. So Kyle and I, that's like
he's my hiking buddy, you know what I'm saying. We
meet up at different places around the country and you know,
just go on walks and you know, he was always
heavy into meditation, and when he started rocking with Joe Dispenser,
he started sending me his meditations early on, and I
couldn't get with it, you know what I'm saying, because
the dudes he talks with, you know what I'm saying.

(32:25):
But he just kept bombarding with the ship until you know,
like I got one meditation that was it was you know,
short enough for me to get into. And it was
also it wasn't so long that you know, it started
to because I tried to do it with my family
and everything, and they was like, yo, I can't do this,
Like why is dude talking that way? But once you
get over how he's saying the shit, you start to

(32:45):
see results and you start to feel, you know what
I'm saying different. So yeah, I've been rocking with it
for a minute. But that's how I got turned on
to it, you know what I mean. And I think
Kyle was the first person that gave me that book,
Becoming Supernatural that is meditation? Is that still a practice today?

Speaker 1 (32:59):
That it is?

Speaker 3 (33:01):
But you know what really you know tripped me out,
was I forgot I didn't even realize when I discovered
Joe Dispenser's meditations that he was the same dude from
that documentary. What the bleep do we know that he
did the water experiment? You know what I'm saying, that
doc that that Japanese dude does, who wrote you know,
the hidden messages in water where you know, if I

(33:21):
take a glass of water, if I take three glasses
of water, say I take two glass of water from
the same source, and I you know, you know, for
a certain amount of time, a week or two weeks,
just curse and talk down to this glass of water,
and you know, I praised this container of water, and
then we freeze them and then look at it under
the microscope. You'll see that the water that I focused
all the negative energy on is gonna, you know what

(33:41):
I mean, produce just all these ugly sort of like
you're gonna be able to visibly see the ugliness that
I projected. Yeah, it's like I projected toxicity onto you
know what I mean, this water and the water that
you you know, praise and that you hit, you know,
and focus your positive energy on, like the images of
like you know, beautiful you know, one of one, like snowflakes.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (34:01):
When you look at it at the microscope because we're
seventy made of water, right, human.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
So this dude who's meditations, he and I do. I
was already a fan of his from the water shit. Yeah,
I mean really years probably ten twelve years ago, and
then I didn't realize, oh shit, this is that same dude. Then,
you know what I mean? I started listening to really
his podcast interviews and stuff because he was he was
he was like paralyzed from the neck down from an accident,

(34:25):
and you know, just through my control, he was able
to you know, focus on different parts of his body
and bring it all back, you know what I mean.
So he's a he's the real deal in that. You know,
he's still he talks with it though, so.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yes, he talks weird. But that was the thing, like
I didn't realize that Treek was actually more advancing this
shit than I was. Like I think I'm like bringing
something like shit where man, motherfucker's going to start clowning.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
Me and you're all right, he was waiting on you
to get here, right exactly, That's what happened. So yeah,
I'm in that yah man doing white people shit right exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, because just doing the work and doing you know,
as with most of us, discovered for a lot of us,
doing the work is it's a vulnerable thing to put
yourself through and oftentimes we're looking at ourselves through the
eyes of what others will think about me and all

(35:22):
that stuff. And it really wasn't until mid twenty twenty
in which a lot of us were like, okay, mental
health and you know, not just church or handle choice.

Speaker 7 (35:31):
And I got to just say, at least for your
story read like you.

Speaker 6 (35:34):
You would hope just based on the surface of what
we knew before you presented this book to us that
you were in therapy because it always just felt like
your life.

Speaker 7 (35:44):
It was heavy.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, you know, I've definitely you know, I've done different
sorts of therapy, and you know, I think this book
just the process has been you know, it was like
it was a therapeutic, cathartic sort of thing for me
to work through. I knew I didn't want to write
a tell all. You know what I'm saying like there
is I'm still super private and there was much that

(36:07):
you know what I mean, I just still hold close
to the chest a lot of the ship. It's embarrassing,
it's fucking it's you know what I mean, it's it's what.

Speaker 7 (36:14):
Was the hardest thing for you to in that realm?
What was one of the hardest things it was for
you to express.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
In that book? The hardest thing I talk about in
the book is, you know, firing the pistol into a
building that I knew my mother was inside of. You
know what I'm saying, That was you know, very it
was hard, super hard. I mean, in that moment, you know,
it felt it made perfect sense.

Speaker 6 (36:35):
It was so brave of you, and I appreciated you
for introducing us to your mom. Yeah real she was, like,
I mean, I've never even met a high ranking woman.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Like, yeah she was. I was going to ask you
another part in the book. You mentioned, you know, just
relationships that your behavior, you know, you knew you kind
of like kind of ruined in some ways. How did
you go about fixing those relationships and what did that
look like? You know some some of those relationships I
haven't been able. You know, they've been irreparable, you know

(37:11):
what I mean. And sometimes it's a hard pillar swallow,
but you know, you gotta swallow it. Right. One of
the religion, you know, I really I mean we would
all hope that you be able to make it all
good with like your nuclear family at some point. Right.
So I was, you know, I did have hopes that

(37:33):
I don't know, even though I refer to him as
my half brother in this book, you know, I mean
it's I only have one brother. So I was, you know,
it was my hopes that he was going to read
the book and I don't know, like that would be
a springboard for some self revelation, some discovery within hisself
that would lead to I don't know, some sort of
you know, peace. But yeah, just as luck would have it,

(37:56):
like the crazy shit was. I found out that they
found his body, like I'm saying, my brother was. Yeah
he I don't think there was any foul play, but
he passed away. And I found out when I was
in Philly to do a book event, like the first
book event with Mark Leamon. So this is recent. This
is this is recent. Yeah, but you know they yeah yoa.

(38:17):
So So during this whole for the past two weeks,
while I've been on this run, like promoting this book,
I've been having to you know, shoot back and forth
to Philly and figure out the funeral arrangement. I mean,
you know he did. He never wanted the funeral or
anything like that, but you know, just to get his remains,
you know, cremated and that whole process. It's been a lot.
And I didn't take any time off from you know,
tonight show or any of that either, because I just

(38:39):
been you know, just trying to choose my battle. So
I just made it happen.

Speaker 7 (38:42):
But communicating.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
The last time he and I communicated was.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Man.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Maybe it was It's been about two years or so,
you know what I mean. He reached out, I know,
like within the past like two months, he reached out,
but he wasn't able to get in contact with Man.
So one question I had, how do you I mean
a mirrors talk about it as well, but like when
you are the one in your family that makes it right,

(39:10):
how do you go about setting up boundaries with your
family in terms of Okay, this is what I can do,
this is what I'm not going to do. How did
y'all figure that out? I think over time, you know,
those boundaries just sort of reveal themselves, right in situations
where it's extended family, but with your parents, with your
I mean I would imagine with your parents, you know,

(39:30):
what I'm saying. But like with your siblings, with your
you know, with anyone in your family who was close
enough to feel that level of entitlement, it's crazy, like
it could, you know, like it could. It's for for
many of us, it's a deal brecker, you know what
I'm saying. I have my brother on the salary for
a long time, you know, where he was, you know,
he never had to do anything and you just get

(39:51):
a check every week, you know, And it was like,
I mean, but I tried all different sorts of configurations
of you know, trying to set him up up for
self care and to be able to, you know, best
take care of my grandmother too at the time before
she passed away. And you know, to Noveil. You know
what I'm saying, have your how.

Speaker 6 (40:10):
Have your your kids because you talked about briefly your
older kids of course you're younger too, but how have
they received the book or and are they aware of everything.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
That you have put in that My daughter Celia, she
read a couple of drafts and she's read the book,
so she she has some weird Yeah, Sealiah's seventeen.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
That my family will never read.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
He can't do she's read a couple of drafts and
she's read the book, and you know, she loves it.
She you know, she was brought the tears on a
couple of different instances. But my other kids, I know,
a mayor hasn't read it.

Speaker 7 (40:48):
I wanted to say that too, that was a mayor
has not read it.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
And you know, I don't know what a mayor this year,
Amir is a This is the way you.

Speaker 7 (40:55):
Just dropped that, Like everybody knows that Black Thought has
a son named.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Mirror talking about that, but no, Yeah, he's about to
be twenty four, and he was just always so you know, idyllic,
you know that. I feel like now I'm just it's
so shocking, like he'd be forgetting young. I mean, he's
forgot my birthday this year days late, which is it's
not huge, but it's like, wow, like this, who is

(41:18):
who is this? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 (41:20):
He like, oh my bad, pops, I've just been mushrooms.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Right. But I'm sure he hasn't read the book yet
because he's just you know, he's uh, he'll have to
probably be up here for the holidays and in my
presence and then he'll you know, crack it.

Speaker 6 (41:33):
You've had conversations with like a mirror and stuff about
this evolution in these stories of your family and.

Speaker 7 (41:39):
Like how you up cycle.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I try. I've always tried to,
you know, just be be transparent with my kids about
that from which we sort of you know, came. But yeah,
it's hard to get them interested, you know what I mean.
I drive around like, you know, this is why I
went to school. I used to live like in this
tiny structure, you know what I mean? This is how far.

(42:03):
Let me show you how far I walked to first grade,
you know what I mean. And I say, okay, we
started here, and then I'm driving, drive and driving.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
They're like, we ain't get there yet, Like nah, and
we drive.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
I'm not making this it up. Yes I was walking
and maybe there was a path shovel through the snow,
but maybe there wasn't, you know what I mean. And
they just, you know, they lose interest. So I try
not to impress it upon them. But I think it's
because you know, they're just so they come up in
a bubble. So there's that disconnect, you know what I mean,
And it's it's part of what we do. This is
This is part of the you know proverbial having overcome,

(42:36):
you know what I mean. So the way that privilege,
the way that entitlement plays out, it plays out in
different ways, and it depends on you know, I think
it boils down to you know, I mean, we all
spare the rods now, but you know, I think it
boils down to how much time has passed, maybe how
many generations have passed, you know, since the rod has

(42:58):
been has been spared. You know what I'm saying. But yeah,
you know, it's wild. I try not to force it
on him. But just a couple of weeks ago, when
we were leaving a book event in Philly, I went
to Philly to do something. Uh oh no, what the
one I was talking about with Mark? And it was
in my old neighborhood. So we were on our way home,
and just as we were on our way home, my son, Tarik,
who's eight, was like, he said, Joel, and then when

(43:20):
next time we come to Philly, could we see you
know one of the places used to live, like maybe
the house that you burned down? And we were like
two blocks away from there. So I got to now,
because he had expressed interest, I took him to the block.
I showed him, you know, where I went to preschool,
showed him the house that I you know, set on fire,
and where I used to go to the corner store
and that whole thing. And you know, not that he cared,

(43:40):
but I showed him whe Chubby Checker used to live.
And yeah, but you know, now it's you know, he
has a you know there was because he expressed interests.
I think that memory but it'll sit with him in
a different way. But yeah, my other kids they don't really,
they don't be caring.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, I kind of want to carjack this interview. I
know we're talking about the book, but also a big
part of Tariq's existence is that in roots world, everyone
knows a mirror, but no one knows Tarik. Kind of
the ways where we're opposite is last night, I went

(44:21):
to bed at four twenty am. I'm certain you were
probably up at three am. What is your morning routine?

Speaker 3 (44:29):
I usually go to bed around nine or nine thirty.
Who does that? Well, when you're not in third grade?
But I got a son who's in second grade, and
he'd be well, yeah, so you know, so it's all
of your kids first and foremost, I have to be
awake for as many consistent hours as possible just to

(44:50):
police his sugar intake. If Tariq wakes up at six
am and we don't wake up till eight, there's been
two hours where he could just roll through the crib snacks,
stashing shit, eating you know, candy for breakfast, and then
I wake up at hey, and then it's a real shit,
that's super real. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you know, So
there's that. There's also if there's anything you've talked about

(45:13):
me wanting to watch the Guilt, If there's anything that
I that I like to watch or that I want
to read or work on or listen to, it has
to happen before the house is up. So it works
out that I'm in bed right after when Tarita goes
to sleep at nine nine thirty, I go to bed,
But then I wake up at like four thirty five,
and then I'm good and everybody else is asleep, and
I have an hour and a half to two hours,

(45:35):
you know, to do whatever. Right what time do they
wake up that they wake up at seven? They wake
up at seven, And it's wild because that gives me anxiety.
Celia has a seven twenty train to make it to
school in New York City, and she gets up at
seven o'clock and she still she has to walk the
dog and be at the train, and I'm like, yo,
how are you doing this? But she makes a happen,
She makes a happy happen. She makes that happen. Michelle

(45:58):
gets up at seven and, you know, to get to
school every day at the absolute latest that he can arrive.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
You know, I know you're big on food. Are you
the food person in the house?

Speaker 3 (46:10):
I am, Yeah, I cook. I do all the grocery shopping,
and I cook almost well, eighty ninety percent of the
grocery shopping, and I cooked eighty ninety percent of the meals.
But yeah, also in the morning, I do that Joe
to Spenders twenty five minute morning meditation. I knocked that
out work out with you know physical Sometimes I work out,
you know what I mean, Like when I'm in a
workout period, I work out. But if that's the vibe,

(46:35):
then then then I worked out nothing. When I was
fresh off the LL tour, you know what I mean.
And I found out that our mayor's trainer happened to
live ten minutes from my crib and you know, we
had gotten close on the road. It was like, yeah, cool,
let's work out, you know what I mean. I did
it for a solid month after we got off the road,
and then you know, we trickled off, you know it.

(46:55):
It's Thanksgiving. But yeah, I'll be back you know January. Yeah, anintuarady,
no doubt. You know when in terms of your writing,
like writing songs, writing rhymes, how often do you write
and what does writers block look like for you? Well,
I get home from work at night, I eat dinner,
and then I go into my office and I write.
I either try to read full least an hour or

(47:17):
write full least an hour before I come back to
you know, because my office is over the garage, so
it's like it's almost like I come in the crib,
I have dinner, and then they say, oh, you're leaving us,
you know what. I'm out. It's like I go across
the driveway and then I work, you know some more,
and I do the same thing in the morning.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
So your office is outside the house.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (47:35):
On a writing note, I just want to I want
to ask about this, this one hundred three thousand quote
that he recently said. I was just talking about this
with Pante too, where he said that at this age
he's not doing hip hop because what does he have
to talk about, like going is to get a colonoscopy.
What do you feel about that? Because when I heard
that in my friend we were like, yeah, we actually
would like to hear about things.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Cause I think I think that's it. I think there
are I don't really get writer's block like that. I'm
always able to come up with something just because of
the amount of of you know, constant like information, like
the intake, you know what I mean, it's content being
projected at me. You know, every turn, you know what
I'm saying. I drive in, I'm listening to PRX, which
is all twenty minute chunks of storytelling, which is dope

(48:14):
because it just it gets me into just being a
more efficient storyteller. I listen to NPR if I want
to hear something along form. I listened to you know,
Urban View for you know what I mean, you know,
black people politics, and that's it. Like if I'll get
no bars off, it's like that, right, I mean the
black ego, you know what I mean. But that's the

(48:36):
type shit, you know, that's where the bars come from.
Whether I agree with it or not, you know what
I mean, It's always a springboard, you know, like into
a thing. Are you writing like to beat or you're
just writing just sometimes I'm writing not to beats, but
it's more exciting for me to write to beats. I
got a batch your joints from mad Lib for example,
like you know, maybe two three weeks ago he hit me.

(48:58):
He was like, Yo, Monday, I'm gonna start bombarring with joints. Boom,
Monday rolled around. He sent me like a hundred beats,
you know what I'm saying. And then I got the
beats and it was like I narrowed it down to
like eighteen and I started, you know, vibing to those joints.
But yeah, you know it's exciting now for me like
to come home and like dig through that sort of
that that that collection. I went to La. We were

(49:19):
in this. We had a couple of sessions in La
over the weekend. I came back. So that's sort of
what I've been like chipping away at.

Speaker 7 (49:25):
But yeah, say we had is that Like.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
No, I went I went to La to do a
book event at USC But I'm gonna always you know,
the studio is my church, Like that's why I feel
most at home. So if there's any possibility for me
to go and sit in the studio someplace and hear
music and chill and smoke and be social, whether I'm
actually actively working on the thing or not, then that's

(49:50):
what I'm going to opt for, you know what I mean. So, yeah,
I went out there, I did my book thing, and
then I went into the studio. I was in the
studio with man Rich Richard Nichols. We talk about undone today.
Was is the anniversity of undone. That was the second
time that I got called to be on the record
and we did one time and that was the first time,

(50:11):
was that one? And also how I got over That
was the first time I really got to see how
integral Rich was to the recording process because I had
never been like in the studio with y'all. So I
wanted to just hear from you, like what he was
kind of to you as you know, as a mentor manager,
Like what role did he play kind of? And you know,
for me, yeah, Rich was a mentor. I've always been

(50:33):
big on mentorship, you know. Yeah, I don't know where
I would be, you know without it. He lived by example,
you know what I'm saying, in many ways, and was
you know, he was the roots, I mean, above and
beyond an executive producer. I always talk about he was
just sort of the brains of this operation, you know
when he really, you know, laid down the groundwork for

(50:54):
us to be able to you know, I don't think
our Mayor and I would be as self sufficient as
we are. I mean, had he not you know, been
focused on that, you know, ten twenty years before it
mattered to us, you know. So you know what he
was was he was that, he was the he was
on both of us. She was you know what I mean,
and influence. Yeah yeah, and you know, just working with him,

(51:18):
like having him uh in on the process.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
You know, I knew the ball. I was gonna always
be at my best, you know what I'm saying. Always always.
He was gonna always push us, even when you know
you might it might be something that you you really
feel like you you killed it and you you have
taken it as far as you could take it. Yeah, No,
he's gonna you know what I mean. He was the
voice of reason and he would bring you back down
to reality in that way. Talk about that you working

(51:44):
with us in the roots? I was I felt threatened
by you when you worked with this, you know what
I mean, just because I was like, how was this?
You know, Rich sent you back to the drawing board,
but not as much as he was sending us, you
know what I mean? And I know it wasn't you
go and I know I know, I know it wasn't
because like we were you know, I mean, his family.
It was because he was just more content with what

(52:04):
you were doing. So I was like, what the fuck
is going to take doing that? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (52:08):
He only had to rewrite his ship like ten times, like.

Speaker 6 (52:11):
You know, so this is the first time most of
us are hearing that somebody could make either one of
y'all rewrite.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Rich was like, well, we came when out when I
did the verse for one time, because the thing was
it was the one time it was it was now
or never first, it was now or never, And I
came to do that one and I just wrote a
verse because he would. I would I'm like, okay, so
what's the song about? Rich? And Rich would send me
like a chat.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
For real.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
I'd be like, okay, nigg imad what none of this
ship mean all right, I'm gonna And so I did
my verse and I just did it, and what none
of y'all. Y'all wasn't dead. It was just me and
spawned in the studio. So I think even Richard left
and so I did my joint and I'm like, all right,
I think I don't know. I guess this works. And
so I went to the crib, went to the hotel,
and the next morning and he called me, and I

(53:01):
didn't hear nothing because normally rich you know, he would
text or.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
I would get something to say, I ain't here shit.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
And I'm like okay. So he called me, He like yeah, man,
uh yeah, I mean yeah, I'm gonna need you to
go at it again. I'm like, all right, cool, And
so I went again, and I remember the note he
gave me was he was like, I wanted to make sense.
It can't just be dope as a rap. It has
to make sense on the page, like if you're just

(53:26):
reading it it's poetry, you know, or its literature. It
hasn't make sense in that way. And I was like, shit, okay,
got it. And so then I did the second draft,
and then that was when he called me back for
the day with Blue. And when he called me back
for that, I was like, hell, yeah, cause that was
one like I loved it. It's like one of my
favorite even without me on, that's just one of my
favorite songs catalog. And so he did that one. But

(53:48):
through all of those times, man, he was really because
I understood, like I'm walking into a studio, nigga, it's
you truck porn he was. When Poem was getting his ship,
I would I would show up, like you know, and
I was living in La at that of course, big
up the dice. I would show up and they would,
you know, because it was so competitive. They would all

(54:11):
you know, clamor to get their ideas on the beat
before I heard it, so that I was, you know,
just more married to you know. That's how why the
first experience the the you know, the composition, right, I
would hear they were like, yo, you got to hit
this beat, And the first time they playing it for me,
I hear porn versus you know what I'm saying. So
it was competitive in that way. But by the way,

(54:32):
Greg porn case you know rag porn. But yeah, you know,
Fonte for rich to even you know what I mean,
be concerned enough to send you back to the drawing board. Man,
I appreciate means it means that you were brilliant because
he would, you know, just as quickly like nah, I
mean we he couldn't give us what we needed and

(54:53):
we would just you know, me move on because it
was so many other people sort of waiting for that slot.
But he was concerned with elevating you know, hip hop
lyricism to literature and elevating you know, hip hop culture
to fine art. And he was, you know, he was
so disgusted. Always discussed with the state of black lyricism,

(55:13):
like R and B lyrics like you know what I mean,
the ship that you know he fucked over right rich
fuck up, the whole family cookout, just dissecting, you know
what I mean. Yeah, what we did. I remember what
we did one time for undone, and I remember the
note he gave me. He was like, you know, you

(55:34):
have to be a character. He said, I don't want
you to just rap this, Like you can't just be rapping,
you know what I mean. And he played me when
I first when I first got there, it was before
you got in the studio. He played me sleep okay, yeah,
and he played me sleep. I was like, oh, this
shit hard, and he was like, man, RE did that
like thirty times like I had him doing. I'm like, damn.
So I went into do I did mine, and I

(55:55):
mean it was in that particular case. The lyrics I
got right because he was pretty much by that time,
I kind of knew the science, so I'm like, okay,
I see what he's going for now. But the performance, yeah,
he drilled me on that shit. He's like, nah, I
want you to do this word say it like that.
I'm like, I you know now, you know I hate
doing the lyrics. And you know what rich Rich would

(56:18):
do with me sometimes he would, you know, just get
me to do it that many times, and then he'd
do a composite. That's when you do a composite of
you know, the best syllables from you know, thirty different
takes and then you know, he get this composite and
it'll be That was the chat gpt of it all,
because that was like, okay, now this is AI. But
then he said, okay, so we can either use this composite,
which you know, nine times out of ten I wouldn't

(56:40):
want him to use just because it's a different sort
of you know, feeling like there's nuance that is different.
But you know, the composite will become the example and
then it's like, you know, if you can't do it,
it's dope, Like give me a take like this or
better or the composite is what we're using now and that, Yeah,
one hundred percent. Because with that, that kind of was
something that changed my mind because for me, I know,

(57:01):
as MC's we pride ourselves on getting it in one tape. Yes,
like yeah, this is one tape. Oh yeah, which ever?

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Take?

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Which ever? Take? His right, that's the first one, that's
the one. But like for him, I kind of started
to see it more and looking at making records almost
is like making a film in the sense of that
you're really just trying to capture the best performance, you
know what I'm saying it because you want to and
down that's it, Like it's like that forever, you know.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
What I mean.

Speaker 7 (57:27):
Was Rich just integrated in the live performance as he
was in the studio.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
He was our sound guy.

Speaker 6 (57:32):
I mean even in the way that you presented just
not just the sound of it all, but even the
way that you y'all presented yourselves on stage.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
I mean, Rich built the myth of the roots because
before us, you know, your average band was maybe ninety
six DBS, which is like a normal listening spirit. Rich
was trying to create some Pink Floyd shit where we
were one hundred. Yeah, we were like one hundred and

(57:59):
forty d B. He would like, I mean the whole
idea of like echoes and all that stuff because because
also the thing is is that we weren't hit space,
so we had to make the show fall right.

Speaker 7 (58:12):
So it was he like like, I'm gonna need you
to work the stage more like I gonna need you
to he.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
Would give he would give notes like that. He would
give notes like that. I mean, but you would be
able to tell, you know what I mean, Like if
we get done the performance and we get back to
the dressing room, I'm like, yeah, how was that ship?
That ship?

Speaker 1 (58:28):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
He wasn't going to uh, you know, he wasn't very
generous in that way. So you know, even if he
said that ship was cool, it meant it.

Speaker 6 (58:37):
Was cool, y'all right, Because I'm like, I remember the first,
the first the only time I got a compliment from
Rich and it changed my life.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
Like I got a question along those lines. I caught
the four tour like a month ago. It was last
It was in Boston, was the last one. And my
favorite thing is not just you as the leader of
the roots, but you was hype man. It was one
of my favorite things to watch, like l and all
of it was. I didn't know you were such a
great hype man. Oh and it was what I just

(59:06):
don't know if you could speak to that, and just
but what it's like to be with some of your
heroes are you know, people you really respect and hype
and hype in front of them.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
It was it was far out, it was, you know
for me, that's that's one of my favorite things to do,
is to be supportive, Like you know what I mean.
I just enjoy sparring back and forth with those legends.
Like but people who you know, are the reason that
I do what it is that I do, and many
of whom just feel unsung or you know, underappreciated. It

(59:33):
blows in mind, you know what I'm saying, to realize
that something they wrote when they were fourteen or fifteen
or sixteen that impacted me when I was fourteen or
fifteen or sixteen. Now these thirty or forty years ago,
it's still you know, has a life, you know what
I mean. So, and you know a lot of these cats,
I think the role that the Roots serves is we're
connective tissue between a generation, right, you know what I mean? So, yeah,

(59:57):
we've been that bridge. And there's a lot of cats
who you know, maybe at one point of their career
we're at a certain level and then they don't perform
for a long while, and then when they have the
opportunity to perform again, it's like, I you know what
I mean, is my music going to be right? Do
they know my lyrics? All these people familiar with what
it is that I do, and you know the fact
that they may be coming back with the Roots puts

(01:00:19):
them at ease because of the way that you know,
like musically and from a just a hypeman standpoint, we're
able to support them, you know. So that's something that
I've always you know, just appreciated and enjoyed it. I'm
not about on stage trying to I don't want any
attention on stage, like don't even look at me, look
at dude, just you know, I'm about the sound. You know,

(01:00:41):
so it works out for me in that way. But
the Forces Tour was a dream come true and that
we got to do that every day, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
All right, So let me ask probably one of the
biggest myths of black thought is your relationship with freestyling.
There's three particular stories I want you to talk about,
all right. I won't need you to do a forty

(01:01:09):
five minute freestyle, okay, so of course I know that
shout out to ESPO from Philly for catching uh that
clip of us in the alleyway or whatever, like doing
the freestyle thing, which is which basically set your legend.
Can you talk about do you remember the time Scott

(01:01:29):
Scott story? No, no, no, no, Do you remember that
moment when we were at the Trocadero with Hansoul and
we drove home and he freestyled that entire time in
the backseat? I do Did that have an impact on you?
Because the next day you said it once You're like,
that's the level that I have to supend. Like, can

(01:01:52):
you talk about like how if that had an impact
on you as far as like rhyming on the spot,
because I've seen you do it in high school but
kind of in a funny way like battling.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
But there was yes to answer your question. I remember
that night coming home from the track. I remember Han
Soul freestyling, and I remember the way it made me feel,
not necessarily threatened, but just you know, competitive, you know
what I'm saying, The same way that I felt, uh
when I came up and the first time I saw

(01:02:23):
Rozelle and Supernatural and Muhammad performing at that boom poetic thing, right,
I came back to Philly like it, what are you doing?
You know what I mean? Like, fucking dude, you're awake
and you're not rapping like like niggas in New Yorkers,
they're like, yo, they fucking rapping right now? Dog Like
you know what I mean, you gotta be able to
go like off the top. But Toron, that's how I was,

(01:02:45):
so yeah, I think, uh, you know, it was more
of that, you know what I mean. I wasn't necessarily
it wasn't like I didn't feel threatened, but I was
just super competitive, you know, and I knew you know,
people who went to college with me, people went to
high school with me. There always tell you about oh
this one time, you know, to regrap for three hours
and we walked from here to here or drove from

(01:03:05):
here to there, and he never stopped rapping. But there
was something, There was a gravitas, there was a seriousness
in it that night, and what Hans was doing that
made me like, okay, like this is a thing. There
was a level of mastery to it, you know what
I'm saying. So yeah, I definitely, yeah, that was the takeaway.
So can you give your version, like I know, richest

(01:03:27):
version of the Kanye bathroom situation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Yeah, do you remember, And we were backstage at Universal Amphitheater, right,
I didn't know who Kanye West was then, so I
think like he just did get by like he was
hanging with quality or whatever. And again, because of the
legend of Treek's the best restylist ever, you know, motherfuckers

(01:03:52):
would just come up and think, you know, the rappers
that want to rap, just like yeah, I hate that
too with musicians, Like musicians want to like, hey, let's
have a jam session or right, you know, start drumming
and talking and I'm like, I don't do that shit
on my off hours or whatever. So Rich told me
a story once about like you were changing for show whatever,
and then Kanye decided this is my moment and just

(01:04:12):
starts freestyle in front of you. Can you tell that
story because I never heard your side.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
I mean you you know, like what like back in
the day, we would show up for our sessions. Kanye
would be in there sometimes, you know what I mean,
eighty eight Keys would be in there. Sometimes they were
down with Kenny Douro. They were down with you know
what I mean. You know people who worked in studios
wh would give him a heads up, you know on
who had sessions, and they would be in there and
trying to place their beats and and rap FO for

(01:04:38):
niggas ambushers, right, And you know my thing with Kanye
was I would I would run into him more while
we were shopping. So I would be in Atlanta or
Chicago or LA at the place where you knowever everybody
goes to get clothes. Yeah right, yeah, so whatever the
popping you know what I mean story is at the
Barney's or you know Fred Sieg or whatever back in

(01:05:00):
the day, and Kanye would always be in there and
he would always see me. And now Kanye would be like, Yo,
what you got you know what I'm saying. So he
would be the type of person that he wants to
see everything you putting on the counter, you know what
I mean, And he want to go back and see
if you want to get that or if you want
to switch out. So I would, you know, be sometimes
in a store or in like a mall and Kanye's there,
and now I'm grabbing shit to try and throw him

(01:05:22):
off the center of the trail, make him think I'm
gonna get this stuff, and that's not what I'm gonna get.
The night that you're talking about, we showed up to
our gig. It was a Kon in the roots in Erica.
If I'm not mistaken, and Kanye was dead, I forgot. Yeah,
that was the first time I met a Kon. He
was over enough with him and Kanye was in there,
and he immediately goes into his shit. Oh shit, what's that?

(01:05:44):
Oh you got them y threes? What's that? And he
started like picking apart everything that I had on. So
now I'm trying to get dressed and my whole shit.
Like the reason why I was annoyed, it wasn't even
that he started rapping or that he was talking about music.
I was used to him doing that, but he was
trying to you know, I mean like sort of tag
picked my shit apart and be like, oh you got
to this, you got to that, you got to that.

(01:06:04):
Oh oh yeah, oh I'm up on that, you know
what I mean. And it was like that was what
I'm like, you just get the fuck out of here,
like I'm getting dressed, nigga, Like I'm trying to you
know what I'm saying. And I think that was, you know,
that's what happened at university that night. I have a
theory about the flex freestyle. Yeah I knew how hard

(01:06:27):
you and Malik prepared in ninety three, like the mentality
of like, yo, motherfucker's in New York are you know?

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
We got to come with it. And I remember once
like we were driving to New York and we were
listening to like a best of Barbido and Stretch Armstrong
thing and we were like, wait a minute, that's a
B side. We've heard that rhyme before, wanted and it
was kind of a there's no Santa Claus yeah realization,
but you to still kept that. And I remember once

(01:06:56):
you guys did a session which you did so many
freestyles for all these name brand DJs that never wound up,
like there's volumes of freestyles that you've done that are
probably still Yeah, it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Was like one of the MCA like we're going to
promote you know what I mean, like ye know for
all of the radio Mixed show d right, Yeah, I remember.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
So for you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Knowing that was your first time after thirty two years
of never being.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
Invited on Flex's show, were you and kill Bill. I'm
gonna show you not to ever deny me again, because
that wasn't regular, That wasn't just like oh by a
minute seven, I was like, oh, this is a revenge mission.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
No, No, I wasn't. I wasn't really on kill Bill mode,
you know, I was for me. I don't know if
you recall that was a Thursday that I did that joint.
It was we had taped to tonight shows, so I
was tired. It was like twenty below zero, freezing cold,
you know what I'm saying on farm parking. I had
my assistem at the time, like outside waiting in my

(01:08:04):
car like double parked. So it was just like the
urgency of trying to you know, get in and out.
And I knew, you know, Flex and I have been
texting back and forth for maybe six months at that point,
just trying to figure out a window that made sense.
And what was that first text like when finally like
he acknowledges that were not me five yeah, yoh no, no,

(01:08:26):
I was you know, sorry, I was like, wow, you
know what I mean? I think, Yeah, it was definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
I was surprised. I was surprised. I was surprised.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
And you know, I don't know if I think leading
up to that, you know what I mean, Flex's olive
branch flex. His way to show that it was coming
from an authentic place was he just started offering to
spend fors like Yo, any boos, gigs, y'all got, I'll
pull up. I'll just rock for y'all. You know what
I mean. I don't know if you remember this is
the moment that changed his mind. I don't know, but
you know what I'm saying, We.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Didn't you do another oh the method maybe the method
Man thing, because even Jay hit me about the method.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
But by the time I did the methad Man free
style flexing, I had already been talking for like, you know,
damn near a year about me coming up to flex.
The metha Man freestyle just took place. Because we were
promoting that HBO show and you know, there's no way
we could go somewhere and it's me and metha man,
and they not ask us to rap, you know what
I'm saying. But yeah, you know, when I did that

(01:09:17):
flex freestyle, it was like, you know, I mean, roming
off the top rapping period. It only matters to it.
It's so niche, you know what I'm saying. So I
just wanted to represent for those people who sort of
gave a fuck, you know, and I wanted to It
had to be one take because I had to get
out of there, you know what I mean. I was
ready to go home. And my fear is that he

(01:09:39):
was just going to interrupt you and not let you finish. Yeah,
that's enough, And I was like no, no, no, okay,
he let him go on, right, But you know, for me,
can you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
Talk about did that finally feel like a redempt dimptive
moment for you which finally got your flowers?

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
It felt, yes, that moment, you know what I mean,
like the moment that you know that followed.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
Like would you do that night when you got home?

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Oh, I just jill probably you know what I mean
a little bit and went to bed. Yeah, I went
to Yeah, yeah, it was I need to say.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
I mean that I hate to say. I actually cried.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
No, it wasn't. It wasn't until yeah, it started to
go viral and I you know, I saw folks re
retweeting it and you know what I mean, like reposting
the joint. That's when it started to feel like, oh wow,
you know, because I never like I was still knew
I guess the social media, you know what I'm saying, like,
I just really started rocking, you know, with the Instagrams
and twitters of the world, you know, relatively recently at

(01:10:40):
that at that point, So yeah, it was it was
just dope, you know what I mean. It's it's it's
dope to be acknowledged to that point about social media
for you know, you're saying, you know what, I'm on
stage like, I don't want you to really see me
at all. So how do you deal with now in
the era of you know, of music just entertainment period
where you have to have that prey of some sort,

(01:11:01):
you know, some sort of presence online or I mean,
it's it's it's just it's a delicate balance, you know
what I mean. I do, it's just gonna sound crazy.
It's like I basically do the bare minimum. You know,
I do the bare minimum, and I'm able to still
somehow feed my family. But you know, there's a bunch
of a lot of what I do is also in exercise,

(01:11:22):
in overcoming you know, the anxiety associated with you know,
doing shit, you know what I mean. So when I do,
like if I force myself to go and do a
hot type five of stand up, like that's a you know,
an exercise in me, you know, just becoming more comfortable
to my own skin in front of an audience without
having any safety net, you know, the same.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Talk about that because I feel like a lot of
people don't know that you're heavy into stand up.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Yeah, yeah, you know I got I got heavy into
stand up. I got heavy into you know, musical theater
when I was you know, when I'm working on Black
No More. That's what I'm doing a series right right,
it is, it's still you know, still a thing, and
I'm now you know, heavy into I mean, I mean,
I think the medium with which we tell the story

(01:12:11):
is ever evolving, but the story sort of remains the same,
you know what I'm saying. How do you. I was
gonna ask you about just your memory in terms of memorizing. Yeah,
Like how do you go about just memorizing all of
those Like when you're doing the Roots picnic and you're

(01:12:31):
something once, Yeah, you just do just aric a verse,
Like you just come up and just do a verse
or something. How do you just I guess log all
that stuff. I don't know, man, it's like you, I
think I'm using a part of my brain that is,
I don't know. I'll just tapped into, you know, something
that probably would otherwise have laid dormant if I didn't
sort of force myself to, you know what I mean,

(01:12:53):
work with something outside of my muscle memory.

Speaker 6 (01:12:55):
Wait, so to that point the book, I found myself
reading this and being like, fuck, I know smokes, but.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
The details well not as much anymore though, right, not
much places, a little bits enough. But you know, I
think that's attributable to Rich Rich's genius too, in that,
you know, just in the storytelling as a writer. You know,
he would challenge you to be as visual as possible
and the conjure up that that imagery, you know what

(01:13:24):
I'm saying, to make you see and feel and smell
a thing.

Speaker 6 (01:13:28):
But to smell something like you're a six year old,
six year old self, that's deep and to be able
to describe that on paper.

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
So I have a question.

Speaker 8 (01:13:40):
So I'm writing a tell all book right now actually
about about the two of you. Do you have any
advice for somebody who wants to know? I'm just kidding,
but and when's the the rematch? The fight rematch? The
audience wants to know that it's it's going to be
a love hucks, but we want to know when the

(01:14:01):
when the remattress or whatever?

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
No, no, I mean, what are you allowed to talk
about as far as Black No More is concerned, because oh,
we can talk about it's so weird. Like when you
started Black No More, Obama was president, so sort of
in that House of Cards way, like you clearly knew
it was going to be a satire because you know,
it's never going to get that crazy, right, And then

(01:14:26):
suddenly once Trump was president, then it was like, oh,
this is relevant to times now. So at one point
it was an extreme satire and then became reality.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Yeah that's the thing, you know, I mean, at this
point it's it's not as far fetched as it was
or as it felt you know, you know before the
Trump and Biden administrations. You know what I mean. This
was originally slated to you know, to open off Broadway
during the Trump elections, you know what I mean. So yeah,

(01:14:59):
I mean I think this, you know, rejiggering that you know,
it needs to take place. There's you know, very much
that we need to sort of be revisited. But just
you know, for for the fact that you know, what
felt so dynamically sensational six years ago, eight years ago
no longer feels that way. It's like that has been
our reality and worse, you know what I mean, so

(01:15:20):
much off the wall shit has happened.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Yeah, for those don't know. The Black Memoir is a
book written by George Skyler. Yep I thinking like it
was like one of the first half.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
Of her futurist books I nineteen thirty two.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
Oh wow, yeah, and he basically, uh, it's just it's
a satire about a black man who changes his skin color,
falls in love with a white woman and now she's pregnant, right,
and she will eventually find out that which this that that's.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
That's a show that was on Bravo last night right,
you know.

Speaker 6 (01:15:53):
What I mean, It's like, you know, how do we
how does he know because he watches Bravo but it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
So yeah, yeah, we gotta we gotta sort of punch
it up a little bit, I think, just to make
it more you know, as far fetched said as it felt. Uh,
you know at its own set. Actually, you are one
of the most random TV watching people. I know, Like
what are you watching?

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
And how do you pick? Because you and Jimmy will
talk about the most random you'll discover ship on QB
or whatever like Tubby.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
To me, I was like QB QB was a that
was quibi? Yeah that was that lasted like ten minutes. Yeah,
Like what mindless ship do you watch? Or like what's
what shows right right right now I'm watching, I'm watching
you know bass Lowman bass Reads. You know what I'm saying,

(01:16:47):
Lorman bass Reeves is uh is about this US Marshall first,
the first black US Marshall. Really it's the character. It's
the real life person that the Lone Ranger character was
based on, you know what I mean, which is based
on a black person. Yeah, the Lone Ranger was based
on the black person. But you know they weren't gonna
have it. I mean they're like, yo, let's make it
a black a white man and put a mask on.

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
But yeah, so Bass Reeves. Uh, it's this dope show
that I've been watching recently, yellow Yeah, it's in the
Yellowstone family and all worth it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Yes it is.

Speaker 3 (01:17:19):
This is what else I was gonna say anything Yellowstone
eighteen eighty three. That's level.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
I must watch different, different, different, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I think I'm always excited when somebody could get period right,
you know what I mean. And they got period right,
you know what I mean every time.

Speaker 6 (01:17:38):
So and also the inclusion of the indigenous culture and
just giving us more context be human.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
Yeah, that's they gotta run.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
So I'll go on Apple TV and you see, yo,
watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:52):
I'm watching that. I'm watching that now, Bass Reds, I
mean Lowman, Bass Reads. I'm also watching well yeah, the
Gilded Age and saying, have you seen Killers of the
Flyer Moon yet? No? I hear it. Yeah yeah I
haven't watched that yet. But Fargo, the new season of Fargo,
Yeah yeah, yeah, four episodes in. Yeah, but you know

(01:18:13):
what I'm saying, And I've been Uh, I keep coming
back to just because it's like I can never Even
though it's only three episodes, I think they're like an
hour and a half long each. The American Buffalo documentary
Kim Burns, which is, you know, it's not just about
the Buffalo, you know what I mean, it's really about
America and you talk about indigenous people and I'm just
a history buffer that way. So I've been rocking with that.

(01:18:36):
I found out that it was out because Celia came home.
She was like, they made us watch this documentary today
in school. I'm sure you would be into it. Was like,
I was like, what is it? She was like about
the American Buffalo.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
I was like, do tell it was Kim Burns, And
I was like, ship, like.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
You know, hell yeah. So I've been watching that only
because I have to watch it Burns documentary maybe like
five six times to you know, take in all the
information you thought with rap shit on HBO. I watched
the first season. Second season is better. I mean, the
first season is good, but the second season is it's good.
I have I have I haven't seen.

Speaker 5 (01:19:13):
Every father's impression of their teenage daughter is exactly the same.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
Because I think.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
You're right, yeah, right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Yeah, do your kids like, are they aware? Are you dad?
Are you or are they like do you catch them
listening to your music?

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Or yeah, you know I aren't you worry for them? No, No,
I catch a Mayor listening to my music. You know.
He does his little playlist and stuff, and sometimes even
his playlist of other music that he's listening to in
the shower and all that. You know, it's dope to
see that he's somehow found music that I was listening
to when I was in my twenties two without me

(01:19:54):
having to say, let me put you onto it. So
there's that. It's a leid, you know, does this same thing,
you know what I mean? She listens to my music,
She has a little bit, you know what I mean. Yeah,
she's becoming a hip hop here. But Tarike, he's never
been into any of Mommy. The only root song, roots
thing that Tarik has really that has resonated with him,
not our Disney Junior stuff as what you would think.

(01:20:16):
It's the Blackish thing. So the June Team Blackiest thing,
that's you know, uh, And that put him on to
the whole Schoolhouse rock world and he started listening to
the original I'm just the bill and all the original
Schoolhouse rock shit and then the new Schoolhouse rocks you
and then the new New Schoolhouse rock shit, all just
from ours year, from our Blackish segment. So this is that,

(01:20:40):
you know what I'm saying, but what he's up on
and what I'm still trying to dissect because it played
out the same way with Kamala's kids, who were like,
you know, two and six or two and eight, No,
Tarika is eight. Maybe Kamala's kids the youngest kids are
two and six. They all know every word that Mama
said knock you Out, and they've owned They saw l
performing a couple of times that they came to the

(01:21:01):
shows with us. But for some reason, this is the
first rap song Toreek known all the lyrics to Camar's
Little Baby. You know what I mean? Cash Like, they
all listen, they know all of the from Don't Call
It A And I'm like, that's what I need to
tap into, you know what I mean. It's like, Yo,
they don't be my.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
Son, but we talked.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
I've never heard the show. None of my children have
ever sang one of my joints the way to Reek
sing Don't Call It a comeback.

Speaker 7 (01:21:25):
I'm like, yo, like out of a mad physical movements
in the right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:30):
Yeah, there's definitely something in that that and that's what Yeah,
and that's why I told you. I was like, Yo,
we need to use that joint that we did want
to yo because there might be something in that. And
I don't know if it's the music or the lyrics
or the marriage return.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
Yeah, yeah, my okay. So you know, we redid Mama
for the NBA mid season, the mid season tournament, and
the my initial idea, I knew they wanted Mama said
knock you out. But also LL's kind of this place
where it's like, yo, man, I'm not a legacy act
like that sort of thing. But you know, the people

(01:22:06):
that write the text are like, nah, man, we just
just do your song from nineteen ninety please and take
this check. So I was like, all right, let me
find a happy meeting. So I actually did something dope
where I reversed because I'm also working on the Slide movie.
I have access to the masters, so I was like,
all right, let me reverse the song. And you know,
like what Terminator actually edge Panic was to rebel without

(01:22:29):
a pause, like the sirens going backwards so I did
a backwards version of shit and it sounds dope as shit,
and even LLL was like, uh, let's let's not.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
Give this to them, like listen, even l I was like, God,
it's great, right, So it am I mean, because I
mean we see you working, you know, I mean you
you know, been dropping projects left right in terms of
you know, a roots record. Now that Rich is no
longer here in that role, who is in that role?
For yeah, there is you know, I don't know that

(01:23:03):
there's anyone in that role, y'all think I think no
have to be. Yeah, yeah, we've We've had to extend ourselves,
not necessarily over extended, We've had to extend ourselves in
order to fill in that gap. You know, because Sean,
though he is he's he's an innovative, He's not necessarily
a creative, you know what I mean. He's a business mind.

(01:23:25):
He's an innovative mind. He's not a creative. And that
was the beauty of the balance between him and Rich
was like, you know what I mean, hot and cold,
you know. So yeah, so there's that. But I think
in terms of an album being done, I think we
got plenty of material. I think it's just gonna boil
down to you know, I may or not being excited
enough in any moment to do the mix is necessary

(01:23:48):
to say all right, this is the ten songs or
twelve songs or however many that are gonna be album.
But we got enough joints. You know, we have more
than enough.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
I just for me once a week, I guess excited
about something else, and then I'll replace it and replace
it and replace it.

Speaker 7 (01:24:04):
That's the problem because really would and Richbn want to
come in and be like mother.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
It's just like in your dreams thing, then in your
dreams thing got shelved because it's just like, look, we
got to wrap up. Do you want more?

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
We're not going to get this ship done in time.
So that's the one thing I don't have, which is like,
all right, no more new songs.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
There's there's there's value in our procrastination in that, you know,
once we put out anything, then it's out right right now.
The bar is where the bar is. What the Roots
brand means to people is what it means. So yeah,
I think there's something in that. I think the whole
what makes the Roots the Roots is the fact that

(01:24:44):
we've always you know thought and then overthought right in
the process. So I think now the idea is to
pull it back a little bit. We don't need to overthink,
but I think we still need to be as considerate
in the process as we you know, have or in
the past, because that's that's the difference when people say, yo,
what's the difference in me in the roots? In me

(01:25:04):
on somebody else's shit, is like, I'm just gonna pull
up and I'm gonna almost go with the first thing
that comes to my mind. That's why streams of thought
is called streams of thought because it's like, it's as
close to a freestyle as you know what I mean,
I'm just letting the it's the first thing that I
think of, which you know and many times is dope,
and you know it's witty and funny, but it's not
what we do in the roots. It's not rich challenging
me to you know, something that's gonna fucking you know,

(01:25:27):
resonate just reading it off the page. That's not what
I have to do. If I'm in the studio with
Ninth or Salime or Sean c. And that's part of
you know, that's what informs it and makes it it's
a dope exercise because it's not as it's not something
that I won't say. I don't take it as serious.
But it's just a different process, I understand, you know
what I mean. It's a different process, you know. So

(01:25:47):
I mean I think in that like, you know, the
roots album, especially based on what dictates enough material to
be an album in this day and time, we've got
multiple new roots albums done. What do you feel like
or do you feel like y'all have anything to prove
on the album front?

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
Like what would be the So the one thing that
has occurred to me and then you shoot your cousin
came out in twenty fourteen. So we're going on the
tenth year and I probably have done twenty thousand hours
of DJing. Now, the DJing that I've done post twenty
fourteen is different than the dj and I've done pre
twenty fourteen, in which, you know, jams are far and

(01:26:29):
few between, and I'm the kind of guy that unless
like I'm doing a gold party or like it's a
high pressure situation where it's like all right, well Drake, syah,
so let me play some trap like the shit he knows,
I'm always the guy that like, I now know how
to read my audience in a way that I didn't before,

(01:26:50):
Whereas before I was obsessed with letting you know, yeah
I got that Japanese printicolege that you don't got, and
you know, I'm not looking at the floor clearing and
none of that shit. I'm so I'm so hyper aware
of what works and what doesn't work as a DJ
that now as a creator starting to bleed into I

(01:27:12):
can't divorce myself from her. So now I'm thinking of
like is this the right bpms? Where's the melody at?
What should we talk about? Like things I never thought
about before, like well this resonate with the audience.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
In recent years, you know, like when a mayor gives
me a beat or like an idea for a composition,
he does a whole separate track now of just like
a guide track of him saying okay, like you know,
the okay, the verse can start here, you talk about
this here and then okay, like here you can do
something like what was like now I'm like Nigga just
right around. But yeah, he's definitely you know, just paying

(01:27:46):
attention to a lot more of the detail with anything
that I think that's a good thing. I mean, it's
a beautiful thing. Yeah, because you have new information. Yes,
I'll be calling you Jordan. Oh, I mean okay, but
I sit, I concentrate.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
But also like the movie was unexpected, Like you know,
the movie was a thing that, oh, let me just
pass the time in the pandemic, and now it's like,
oh god, now I got two careers.

Speaker 7 (01:28:12):
So both of y'all, y'all schedules are crazy between the both.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
Okay, So I'm trying to think of things that, like
the Internet always wanted to know. I'm not asking any
masterpiece theater questions because it's like, dude, he's done like
swimming records. But what I will ask is what five
m sees that are least expected for us to know?
You dig because the second time we talked about rap shit,

(01:28:38):
he sold me on turn this mother Out. And I'm
like hammer and I joked, I joked once on what
had happened was that I'm almost certain that our love
of Apache or rhyming over Apache had more to do
with Turn this mother Out than it did men at work.
But Tarik is like instantly Tarik sold me on it. Yo,

(01:29:00):
you know about n W A and I'm like, dude,
they got Jerry Curls. I ain't listening to shit, and
he's like, but listen to this, and then he played
me turn this mother altum like you like MC hammer.
I didn't. I thought like great, nice was corny and
he's like, no, man. But that's the thing, Like Tarik
has a way of listening to anything, like I go
on the tour of b US and listen to A

(01:29:21):
Paul and MJG. Yeah, I was like, I never listened
to Pastor Tchoy in this lifetime, and then suddenly like
I'm Pastor Joy's number one fan. So it's like Tarik's
put me on to so much unorthodox things that normally
my snobby East Coast era ass like what what EMC's are, Like,

(01:29:42):
you're under championed, non obvious ones, non kine non.

Speaker 3 (01:29:48):
Like of from back in the day or just period Karen,
you know, I think Special Led is an unsung you
know hero in that you know his album The Youngest
in Charge, you just talk about just the power of
youthful expression, and he was especially that was fourteen years old.
I look at my kids at fourteen. It's like, you know,

(01:30:10):
I when it's like if I'm in a moment where
I have to just rap a rap, I'm gonna pull
from you know, anywhere, I rapped from anybody's catalog, shit
that you don't even remember you wrote. But one of
the you know rhymes that I often do is, you know,
I was proven effective by a clinical test because some
couldn't come to believe I'm the best, so they tested me,
and now they're in the clinic. They almost arrested me

(01:30:32):
because I did it, but I didn't mean to do it.
You had to mess with me and then you blew it.
Now you gotta chew it, swallow it all. I guess
that's the way that you bounce the ball like this
is a fourteen year old wrote that, and that's that's timeless,
Like I can, you know, depend no matter what the
soundbit is, the music that I put it over, like
those bars will forever like rain poetic and you know

(01:30:54):
what I mean, like bring something up and folks that
hear it? Who was my one? You wish you could
that was my That was another? I mean especial levels,
just super dope. So I think he's he's one of
those ones. I think, you know, cool Keith, you know
what I mean for the whole. I think cool Keith
Man ship. I mean he was like, you know, the
thelonious monk of this ship in that you know, I mean,

(01:31:14):
his ship didn't even have to rhyme, you know what
I'm saying. And they they were him and said like
ultra magneticum Seas were ahead of their time in so
many ways. So yeah, I think, you know, cool Keith
is another one, Greg Nice, you know what I mean,
He's I think just geniuses that I was able to
recognize and latch onto, and that it's something from their
body of work that I've extracted that, you know. I mean,

(01:31:35):
I still these are I kicked all of all all
of the above. I kicked their bars every day, like
this ship just came out. Anybody currently, Yeah absolutely, I
mean you know, we will sell you in the roots
the force to use rocking ma comedy and yeah, yeah, Macky,
that's that's my ace, you know what I'm saying. He
was in the studio with It's just the other night Mark,

(01:31:55):
you know. Yeah, I think he's one of those ones,
you know, someone who again understands just a sensibility of
you know, a person who's been around since the nineties,
but who's also in just some ways just feels you know,
still cutting edge, right, and I think his association with
the whole Griselda family and that movement, but the way

(01:32:19):
that he's distinctly you know, different, is huge too, you
know what I mean. I saw you did. We were
on the same album, Your Old Drew. That's that's the
second person I was about. The name man's yeah, and
your Old Drew is is actually he's my connection to
my COMI. But he's another one. You know. When Your
Old Drew came out, I didn't rock with it because
I felt like, yeah, I thought his voice, I thought

(01:32:40):
he sounded too much like Nads and I'm not you know,
I'm huge on you know, just you know, being being
originally you know what I mean. And I was like, nah,
you know, I'm not rocking with this shit, like you know,
I think it was Hoodie season or one of those
first joints, you know. But I met him on the
road opening up for Royce and Premiere when they were
doing their prime tour and we sort of hit it off.

(01:33:01):
And you know what I mean, I've been you know,
I talk about mentorship and you know, just artists that
we shared demos with one another, and I'm able to
just you know, offer sage wisdom and they're not gonna
catch feelings if I say I don't like this one
and I like that one. He's been one of those
artists and over time, you know, I was trying to
get at Mock and he was non responsive until Drew
put us on the same song and then you know,

(01:33:24):
like sort of connected us, you know what I mean.
Then now, yeah, you know, he and I, me and
Mark be rocking. But yeah, you're old Drew. He's another
one man. He's just super dope. And uh, you know
I had to. I had to give it up, you
know what I'm saying, because he proved that he was
a real deal.

Speaker 6 (01:33:36):
I need everybody to realize, who hasn't read this book,
that we probably only covered about.

Speaker 7 (01:33:41):
Two to three of his talents. Now in this book, there.

Speaker 6 (01:33:45):
Is history that gives you history on his gourmet cooking
talents because yes, he's a gourmet chef. There's history to
his visual arts talents because that's what he went to
school for.

Speaker 7 (01:33:55):
There's also history singing talent. Just about to stay that
the man signing the I was shocked. I was like
but I.

Speaker 3 (01:34:04):
I can sing fine, taking sad.

Speaker 6 (01:34:06):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, But I just I just
wanted to throw that out there as we are, you know,
wrapping this up, and I just feel like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
Just what most people say, read the book, read that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:16):
But noah, Man, I just want to say, Man, before
we go, dude, you have really been you know what
I'm saying. I mean, first to even say that you
felt threatened, I mean, that's just the crazy shit. Ever,
because when I got that call, I I was jumping
off the damn wall. I was like, what, like hell yeah?
So but nah, man, you've been one of the people
that I watched just and has been an example of

(01:34:37):
how to age in hip hop, like how and how
to do it gracefully and tastefully, you know what I mean.
So my question for you was who or did you
have anyone as an example to say, Okay, this is
what hip hop looks like at forty or fifty, like,
this is a model. Did you have that? I mean,

(01:34:58):
you know, not that I didn't. I mean, yes, I
did have that, but I don't know that I was
as aware of it or just tapped into the example
as it was being set. But you know, I look
at people like you know, the ll who J's of
the world, and even though it's been a long time,
you know what I mean, since he's done a tour, right,
you know what I mean, just the example of being

(01:35:18):
one of the earliest like multi hyphenis right, you know
what I mean, just the whole polymath of it all.
Like with the example of him in iced Tea, you know,
like set as far as like reinvention, I think it
was dope and I think, you know, just you know,
the example of being a class act, you know what
I mean is what resonated with me, like the most
with artists, like you know, the reason LLL is around

(01:35:40):
and still matters and you know, like people care, you
know about all these other endeavors. What it is that
he's doing is because he's personable and he's you know,
he's nice to folks, and you know, he you know,
is conscious about leaving a place or a person or
thing better than he sort of found it. And I
learned that the first time I inducted like we inducted
maybe even ducted ll into like three you know what

(01:36:02):
I mean, National Archives at this at this time. But
but the first time I did it it was me
and Eminem and Jazzy Jeff and it was like the
Hip Hop Honors thing and he called me the next day.
I'm like, he found my number, you know what I mean?
Boom you know they called Meik's on the phone for you.
Yeah cool Jay. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I just want
to thank you for you know what I'm saying, Yo,

(01:36:22):
the wave represented be last night huge huge, like yo,
but it's those, it's those you know, Elverson call you.
L Ella is going to send you a handwritten thank
you now, you know what I'm saying. You know, sent
l L A d M. Jokingly like, yo, I see
everybody you know doing these boom box I'm boxing they

(01:36:43):
you know, uh uh rock the bells jackets with my
joint at like you know, ship seventy two hours later,
this is from Mellow Cool J. You know what I mean.
I got my jacket and you know, yeah, yeah yeah,
it's just like h I think I think you know
that that is an example of how to you know,

(01:37:05):
to age, to grow, to evolve gracefully in this game.
I think another dope example has been set by Dana
like Queen Latifah. You know what I'm saying, just you know,
and these are people who like what they do. The
challenges that they're able to continue to rise to is
what gives me reassurance. Like, yo, I probably could do
all the shit, you know, out of all the people
that I know, right, I've never known anyone in my

(01:37:26):
circle or even remotely you know, distantly connected to my
circle that has never given up on a thing and
didn't you know, make it. You know what I'm saying.
It's like everybody that I know who shit didn't work
who you know what I mean, fell off the rails,
they gave they gave up, quit, they quit, niggas who
I know. I know a bunch of people who didn't quit,
and they've all gone on to greatness, you know. So

(01:37:47):
I think there's something in that. And yeah, I try to, uh,
you know, just be more cognizant of those examples again,
like when they're being set, because you know, a lot
of the shit is a blur.

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
Nah man. Look, I will say with out beings as
mushy as possible, and this is this, this and this
is real maturity right here. Well to reque you know,
no one ever gets that reference. No, no, no, no,
here's the deal in my first book when they were like,
all right, do a dedication and moment right right, and

(01:38:21):
there was like do a dedication and I was like
I just want to say well to Reque and that's it,
and you know, the publishers like, well lips this after it,
I said, he's going to get He's going to understand. No,
Like well to Req was always and the way that
manifesting works is whenever we would like to take the

(01:38:42):
trains back from like busking or whatever, like we would
have a ritual of like getting famous aime As cookies,
getting orange juice and either watching Do the Right Thing
or Cape Fear and as we're walking home like two
in the morning, very related films. I'm with it. I

(01:39:03):
just did a streaming. But we have options now we have,
you know. And the thing was I do some sillies
with like well Toeriq Man. We just did like two
months in Europe straight.

Speaker 3 (01:39:16):
But I'm saying shit as if it would never going
to happen to in lifelie like damn Tiq. We just
playing in front of like twelve thousand people at the
Philadelphia Spectrum Man and we're only home for like three
hours before we got to get up at four in
the morning and.

Speaker 1 (01:39:30):
Catch this flight to like Colorado. We be laughing like
ah man, this's whatever, and not knowing that we're literally manifest.
So I would always start some shit with well tariq
uh and I'll just simply say thank you, and that's
a very loaded thank you without being super mushy about it.

(01:39:53):
And I'm a mushy person. Good just fight again. Yeah, yes,
and fran Mama here, thank you. Thank you all for
having me the great three Tota or Inquest Love Supreme.
You guys can stop to ask me as episode. See

(01:40:17):
you the next go around, y'all. Thank you.

Speaker 8 (01:40:20):
This is Sugar Steve. Thank you for listening to Quest
Love Supreme. This podcast is hosted by a Mere Quest
Love Thompson, Liya Saint Clair, Fonte Coleman, Sugar Steve Mandel, and.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
Unpaid Bill Sherman.

Speaker 8 (01:40:31):
Executive producers are a mere Quest Love Thompson, Sean g
and Brian Calvin. Produced by Britty Benjamin, Jake Payne and
Liah Saint Clair, Edited by Alex Conroy. Produced for iHeart
by Noel Brown and Mike Johns.

Speaker 1 (01:40:51):
West Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Laiya St. Clair

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