December 10, 2024 • 38 mins
Humans may be sent on a scientific round trip to Mars, potentially as early as 2035. Beyond the technical challenges, the big question is whether human beings would be capable of dealing with the long period of isolation and loneliness necessary to make the journey.
Anxiety, depression, cognitive decline, emotional dysregulation, weakened immune system and even hallucinations and delusions are just some of the effects of isolation; not exactly great traits when sending people to a distant planet. That’s why scientists all over the globe have begun researching isolation in some of the most remote places on Earth.
Dr. Beth Healey is not only one of those scientists…she’s also a research guinea pig who’s studying the effects of extreme isolation in Antarctica at the spaceflight research center ‘Concordia”, otherwise known as ‘White Mars’. Jason and Peter spoke with Dr. Healey about which human traits are best suited for handling long periods of isolation, how she personally deals with isolation and, how befriending a volleyball, like Tom Hanks did in the movie Cast Away… is an actual phenomenon. Really, no Really!
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IN THIS EPISODE:
- Who chooses to join an extreme isolation study?
- The personality traits that successful candidates possess.
- 3rd Quarter Syndrome and its effect on male and female participants.
- Dr. Healey discusses the traits, qualifications and abilities that made her a successful White Mars candidate.
- The psychological challenges of isolation.
- What happens to interpersonal relationships with friends and family back home?
- Wilson the volleyball from the Tom Hank’s film “Cast Away” is a real phenomenon.
- Why someone in Antarctica maliciously hid Dr Healey’s gloves? Really???
- GoogleHEIM: We found her glove!
***
FOLLOW BETH:
Website – BethHealey.com
Instagram - @BethAHealey
X - @Bethahealey
***
FOLLOW REALLY NO REALLY:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Really now, really.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Really now, really hello, and welcome to really know Really
Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who remind you that subscribing
to our show means you are never ever truly alone.
But speaking of being truly alone, NASA plans to send
humans on a scientific round trip to Mars, potentially as
early as twenty thirty five. Beyond the technical challenges, the
(00:29):
big question is whether human beings would be capable of
dealing with the long period of isolation and loneliness necessary
to make the journey. Anxiety, depression, cognitive decline, emotional dysregulation,
weakened immune system, and even hallucinations and delusions are just
some of the effects of isolation, none of which are
exactly ideal when sending people to a distant planet with
(00:52):
sketchy odds of a successful return, and that's why scientists
have begun researching isolation in some of the most remote places.
Honor Doctor Beth Gely is not only one of those scientists,
she's also a research guinea pig. She studies the effects
of extreme isolation in Antarctica at the Space Flight Research
Center Concordia, otherwise known as White Mars. We spoke with
(01:15):
doctor Heely about which human traits are best suited for
handling isolation, how she has personally dealt with it, and
how befriending of volleyball like Tom Hanks did in the
movie Castaway, is an actual phenomenon. Really, no, really, And
now here are two guys whose friendship I value almost
as much as my volleyball, Jason and Peter.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Now, this is we're gonna we're gonna talk about isolation today.
And here's so, this is the one that I asked
you about. I had read a thing about you know,
they're talking about isolation on the long space flight to Mars?
Can we survive it? And then you know, and then
not only is it the flight, but then you're on
(01:57):
an uninhabited Atlanta in another world. I still, to this day,
I have trouble spending long periods of time alone. I'm
not good alone. I thrive on social interactions. Yeah, and
it doesn't. And honestly, I was finding COVID. I turned
to my wife after three months of basically just being
with her, and I go, this is good. I'm happy.
(02:19):
I'm very happy with you. You're a great company. But alone
would be challenging for me. Are you good alone?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I'm really good alone? Are you really I am really
good alone? I don't have any trouble occupying myself. You
know what like the fun of this show for me,
Believe or Not is researching and going down rabbit holes
to find it, because every question when you research something
leads to another question. I did that and talk greater fears.
I love I talk? Were you in talk right now?
(02:45):
I love? How long were you in talk right now?
It's about thirty years?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
When people say you're kind, but I just well you
you got to me about how I say, can I
ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm just saying, how many times do I have to
hear it when it right? So they can I ask
your question? How long will you talk right? I'm sorry
to interrupt.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I want to answer until I interrupted you in talk
right now?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You go down here and you go isolation, and then
you find out what kind of personality does well in isolation,
whether personality rates because our guests has gone to numerous
places that are isolated. She's a research scientist to specialize
in this. I get it, But what's your brain that
you go? This is what I want to do and
I constantly want to go to these places which are challenging. Isolated,
(03:33):
it's dark for three months, there's no no day, it's
it's all right. And the challenge is that I don't
want challenges. I don't even want to go camp. We
used to camp when we were kids. If I can't
plug in a hair dryer and a mini fridge and
order something for take, you know, I'm not going.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's the longest. What's the longest you ever been all alone?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Really alone? Intensive care? But people are around. God, I
don't know. I don't know how long I've been around
when people in vacation. I'm home alone, but there's people outside,
there's somebody delivering mail. You're never really I've never been
in isolation. Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You know, the longest is when my parents went away
the first time, left me alone in the house for
a week and I was sixteen, I think fifteen or sixteen,
and I did something stupid, you know what I did.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
There's no way to start isolation. Friday.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They left on Friday morning, so I go to school,
I come back in the world is mine. It's my house,
my house. Friday night, I stay up really late and
I watched the original. I'd never seen the original Night
of the Living Dead. Oh a choice, and I'm I'm petrified.
Bad choice. And I go up to the bedroom and
as I'm getting ready for bed, there's something in the basement.
There's noises coming out of the basement. And don't I
(04:44):
don't know what the hell it is. I don't know
what it is? And what do you do?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
What are you doing? Those things?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Every time we see people in horror films going going
to the thing, go you idiot, you idiot? Here I am,
so I grab a kitchen knife and I grab something
else and I'm now standing outside the basement door, listening,
and there is something in my basement. There is someone
down there. And I don't know where this came from.
The adrenaline and I throw open the door and I
(05:10):
flick on the light night and I yell out.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Something like I'll kill you.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I've been trying to think that I would scare the
psychomaniac that's down there. A squirrel ran across the floor.
I had a heart attack and died. This is not
me anymore. I died at age sixteen. Squirrel outside the
basement door. And by the way, I was paralyzed for
the weekend. I couldn't go to the to the bottom
floor of the house, didn't know what to do. Stay
(05:36):
stay upstairs. And somehow this rabbit squirrel was going to
chew through the basement door, find me and attack me
for calling him names. So all right, so today we're
talking about isolation. Let's introduce our guest, Beth Heally, doctor Bethiell,
doctor Beth Heale, excuse me, an emergency medicine doctor who's
worked for several years in the NHS and a variety
of international settings. She is worked all over the world
(06:00):
in a number of extreme and remote environments.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Valdbard, I didn't even know that was. I looked that
up to see if it was a joke, and they
just screwed that in.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
A place Svalbard, Siberia, Greenland, Antarctica of the North Pole.
She's a research MD for the European Space Agency. She
has wintered in Antarctica at the Spaceflight Analog Concordia, otherwise
known as White Mars.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
YEA, they recreate Mars. That's the closest thing. That's what
they send people to see if they can hack it. Yeah,
or Mar.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
She has researched the effects of isolation and extreme environment
on the psychology and physiology of her cruise. And she's
so she's been there, She's been in the true does it?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
She puts herself through this voluntary.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And so hopefully she'll join us because I know she
likes to be alone.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, they're larning her out with the pieces. They got
someone on a screen now trying to get So let's
say hello to doctor Beth Heally. So the big question
first say hello to a person. Oh, doctor Healely, how
are you great to see you? So Jason talked about her.
I have to teach him man, he's not a on
people a lot, doctor Hilling. I like isolation, but I wondered,
(07:04):
if we are built a man has evolved over the
thousand years to be who we are and live the
way we are and adapt to our surroundings. We're asking
man not to make a giant leap because we're going
to send you to another environment. And I understand it
would be like a three year trip back and forth.
Whatever are we capable from what you know in studying
isolation and living in isolation to do that? Is that realistic?
(07:27):
Or do you sit back going Oh are these.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, I mean it's it's a really interesting question because,
of course, as you say, we are developing the technology
required to take us on these longer duration missions. But
I really do think the biggest challenge is going to
be the human side. That's really what we were studying
in Antarctica Concordia Station where I was working, so I
was working for European Space Agency, and what we were
(07:53):
doing there is really researching the effects of isolation as
an analog for these long durations faceplight missions that it
is really going to be a huge challenge to get
us there safely, with good mental health and as a
web forming team.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
You get that smirk as you're saying that, by the way,
it means challenging. Did you see the wink on challenging
because she's well, you've I should say, and I know
you want to. You've done this repeatedly at different places
where you put yourself in isolation and also where the
environment's dark all day, where it's months and months of
no daylight.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But just so just so people listening have context, how
when you go to Concordia, which is in Antarctica, is.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
That correct exactly?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, it's on the Jame Charlie Plateau. It's closest neighbors
like Busto Conciple.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Right, Okay, And when when you're there and you're embedded
with these research teams, how long a period of time
are you are you all basically in that kind of
isolation when you're doing a research study.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
So I went to Antarctica and Concordia for fourteen months
when I was there, and then the isolation period of
that is like a nine month period where you're over
wentering and so that's where you've got. So we were
a crew of thirteen people for those nine months, and
we were considered completely inaccessible for that period even in
case of emergency. And we also, as you mentioned, had
(09:16):
like long periods of long polar night, so we went
for one hundred and five days without any sunlight at all.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Wow. So does that.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I just want to equate that to the intended Mars mission.
Are they talking about sending that many people in one mission?
Or is that considered a large group for a space mission?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, so that's sort of larger groups than what's anticipated
for a Mars mission, although obviously if then you start
to get colonies, for example, on the lunar plant, lunar
surface or the Martian missions, that it could end up
being a bit longer, like realistically for the spaceship to
get two Mars, that's a higher number than what we expect.
The thing is, they're not just relying on one analog
(10:01):
program alone. So Concord is specifically looking at long duration spaceflight,
but it's also looking at it in the context of
a real mission in so much just to say that
the crew in Antarctica are completely isolated and really extreme conditions,
then so it's considered safer to have that number of
people on that specific environment platform. So that's why we
(10:22):
have thirteen, not because it necessarily reflects what we would
be doing for longeration missions, but we also do other
analog platforms which more accurately look at the sort of
size of the crew. So for example, Males five hundred
would be a good example of that. Whether they had
a six person crew on a simulated Martian mission, but
(10:44):
that was done in a much more controlled environment, so
it's done in like a Russian car park essentially, so
they sort of built the space ship, had a crew
of six people, did a fully like simulated mass mission,
and they had a lot more control over simulating, for example,
and accidents happening there, being like emergencies for the crew
which they had to deal with, and having that kind
(11:06):
of like high fidelity simulation.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
But what it missed is what Concordia can actually offer,
which is.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
That real life danger of being in an isolated and
remote environment. And so I think actually, personally, I would
have found it much harder to have gone on the
Mass five hundred mission, which is the car Park one,
because I think for me, like a lot of the
stress that I had was actually during the summer time
(11:32):
in Antarctica, where I still had the choice to leave,
and it's actually really stressful kind of period because at
that point you still have that choice, and so I
spent a lot of that time thinking, you know, is
it a good decision to stay here, What's going to happen?
Like should I go on the next plane home and
actually just quit? Whereas actually it was kind of almost
like a relief when the last plane left and you
(11:52):
suddenly were like, Okay, I'm doing this, and your mind
actually like psychologically switches to different mode because you know
that you can't even so actually the worries and sort
of anxieties, you have a different and so I think
if I've been in that other simulated mission, that the
psychological challenges are actually quite different. So I think it's
(12:13):
really important to have all these different types of animals
looking at lots of different aspects get you much like
for a bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So we're going to dig into this, but I just
want to jump to the big picture question in your
professional opinion, are.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
They going to be able to pull this off? Or
is this is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
This a hope to Christ kind of thing I can do?
You think, based on what you've seen in experience, that
there are enough people who could actually endure this kind
of isolation and this kind of stress successfully and accomplish
the intended Mars mission.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
So I think we'll do it, but I'm not sure
if you're ready yet. I think that's kind of how
I feel. I think like a lot of these programs
are doing really valuable research and like looking at the
challenges that we're going to face and trying to put
in character measures to try and help prevent those challenges
that we've researched that the team are likely to experience.
(13:06):
But I think that there still needs a lot of
research in this area to help optimize the team most effectively,
like in terms of team selection, preparing the team, making
sure that you have the right composition of team and
that you're preparing them well in terms of the appropriate
counter measures in place, and also monitoring of the team
performance during that mission to make sure that it's successful.
(13:27):
I think, I think it's wrong to think that we
can just you know, just pop a crew on a
Mars mission, like all of this training. But I think
that there is a lot of this research taking place,
like the Concordia platform, like last five hundred, like lots
of other research projects that are going on, and I
think that these are really valuable, and I think that
we really have to like continue to do that to
(13:49):
make sure that we're ready when the technology arrives, to
make sure that we can safety send a team.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So doctor Hilly, what I got to know, A who
are you that you love going to these places? What
personality you And as part of that, you've got to
pick the right personality traits for these people who are going.
I mean, you're going to make sure that they can
live in that environment. And are the tests you get
people to say this guy is going to go he's
gonna hit crazy about day thirteen because looking at us,
(14:15):
I'm guessing day three Are you and I going together?
Because it's day one? Who goes in first, who goes
in second? Were the engines are firing? Wait a minute,
Peter's here. Peter's so yeah, if you can wrap that
all into one, your personality, the personality traits of the
people going, and how they test that. So you know,
(14:36):
louis going crazy J nine here, I'm not going with him.
How do you figure that out?
Speaker 5 (14:41):
But that's it, I mean, and it's not only just
is that person okay? But are they in the right team?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
As well?
Speaker 4 (14:47):
You know, it's like so you could have six of
the right people, but just not the right composition and
like having clashing perfities. And you know, like when we
went on to Concordia, like in fact that our whole
crew didn't even make it to Concordia because you we
were like de selected at the training stages.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
So we did lots of training before we went down there.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
We had like TESTA and people were sort of de
selected before you even made it. And I think that
was really important for our crew. And it's going to
have to obviously be even more strict to go on
these longer duration missions. Yeah, so I mean it's interesting
as well about like who is the good person? You know,
(15:24):
So in some ways you want sociable people because they're
going to be able to get on with each other,
because you know, you talk about isolation, and while you
are isolated, you're also super in close proximity with your
crew as well. So it's kind of this weird thing
where you need to be sociable but not too sociable
that you're going to be able to get on well
with the team, but then you're also not going to
(15:45):
miss too much having that social interaction back at home.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
And so there's lots of different factors.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
And then it's also about understanding your crew as well,
and so we did lots of training at the European
National Center before we went, which is sort of human
behavior performance training, and a lot of that was focused
on really understanding and how your crew react in different
situations and how you react in different situations. And from
having that better understanding and knowledge of how people reacting
(16:13):
these stressful situations, you're able to kind of predict how
people are feeling before they might even realize it themselves.
So just to give you an idea, you know, when
I'm super stressed, I go really quiet. That's how I react.
And so if people notice in the crew that have
gone really quiet, they might pick up on the fact
that I'm not feeling good or like that, that something's
(16:34):
up with me before I might even notice myself. And
whereas other people, you know, get much more light and
much stress in when they're upset as well. I mean,
that's a very basic thing. And then also obviously on
top of that, you've got sort of cultural understanding as well,
because it's probably quite likely that a mission is going
to be a multicultural mission, and then also on top
(16:55):
of that sort of genders how that composition is going
to be and nationality and the cultural differences that come
with that as well, or going into malting pot, and
so it's hard to predict at this stage what and
who that mission is going to be. I mean, is
it going to be a commercial mission, is it going
to be a governmental mission? Is going to be a
mix of everything that we and which nationality we don't
really know at this point, but it's exciting.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
To think that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So what I want to follow up on when Peter
asked you, though, what is it as far as you
can assess, what is it about your emotional or character
makeup that has made this doable for you? I mean,
I understand that you're interested in the study, but you
have to be in it in order to do it.
So how did you know that you would be able to.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Function like this?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
It's a funny question that I get a lot, and
it's not that I had ever really honestly plan to
go and do it. I guess for me, like, so,
my background is I love skating, and so that had
taken to me to like lots of sort of extreme
remote places like for example, I've worked a lot in
Greenland already, I've been up to the North Pole, I've
done lots of of extreme environments stuff.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
And that really stems from a real interest in.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
How our bodies perform in these kind of extreme environments
and also like high performing teams, sports teams, that kind
of thing, and that's really what got me interested in
the project. And yeah, I guess when I first first
waked to Easter about the project for European Space Agency,
they were like, oh, yeah, it's going to be like
you know, like nine months maybe ten months and then
suddenly you're there for fourteen months. And I guess, like
(18:27):
for me, like personally, like I really like sort of
new experiences. I've been really interested in antartica and kind
of my whole life really and but the real thing
that sort of pinched it for me is that I
feel like, really passionate about exploration, and I really think
that sort of spaceflight is the next frontier of exploration,
and I think that as researchers we can well, you know,
(18:51):
while I'm I'm very unlikely to be on the Mars
mission myself, I think that, you know, when we do
step foot on Mars, I feel that by having anticipated
in the research and helping to sort of further our
knowledge on this subject, it really feels that you can
sort of be part of that. And for me, that's
really exciting and I want. That's what really sort of
(19:11):
matanated me to go down into it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
So I'll ask this of you, but I guess you
can extrapolate it into people who participate in this. So
you said, oh, I thought it'd begon eight nine months,
and it turn I'd be fourteen months.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
What happens to all your.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Relationships, your friendships your parents, your siblings, your significant others
or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean, if you're in isolation, are.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
You allowed to be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Or you?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's just all on hold.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
It's a funny thing actually, because.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Your friendships, your parents, your siblings, your significant others, or whatever.
I mean, if you're in isolation, are you allowed to
be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Or you?
Speaker 6 (20:01):
It's just all it's a funny thing actually because so
we did have contact, So we had like really slow internet.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
So it's a bit like darl up.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
You could go and like put like a Weber dress
into the Internet and then like come back in like
five minutes of pup of tea and it would have uploaded.
So you couldn't just like rise unless you have you know,
patients of the same. It's just like really slow. Having
said that, like if you pick like the right kind
of time of day. So we had a really limited
internet connection and a lot of that was used sort
(20:33):
of the bandwidth was used for uploading data, but if
you've sort of put it in the middle of the night,
you could get a really good like zoom call, for example,
with friends and family back home. It was kind of
weird because actually, I think if you were too much
in touch with your friends back home personally, it made
me feel really homesick. And also you could get like
anxious about different things going on, like world events and stuff,
(20:55):
because you're not able to actually, you know, if something
does go wrong, if you have a friend or many
members that's sick, like you're not able to go back
and see them, and so like it was always a
bit of a balance, you know, like some days it
was really good to kind of take a step back,
like speak to your friends, like it kind of put
a good perspective of life in the station. You know,
like at one point, everyone's getting it really upset because
(21:16):
we've run out of taking napkins.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
And like at the time, it seemed like the biggest
problem in the world.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
And then you like call home and everyone's just like
what baf what are you on about it? Like it's
really not an issue, And then it was actually really helpful.
But at other points, you know, you'd be like sat
on like Saturday night, like we were friends going out
in like London, and you're just like, oh, what am
I doing here? Like start in the middle of nowhere
and made you a bit jealous, So I think I
think it's important to like have a bit of a limit.
(21:42):
And it's an interesting question for like long deration space fight,
especially because you know, if you have just unlimited access
of communication to friends and family back home, then we're
not able to like monitor what's coming in, and so
we're also not able to monitor like bad news and
so like historically on Antarctic stations, all the messages used
(22:03):
to come through the station leader. Through that that they
were also able to like monitor to some extent what
information was coming and so if there was, for example,
of fatality or like someone was breaking up, there's somebody
then they would have a better understanding of what might
be going on in that person's life and also be
able to support them through that.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Some of those a guy who was engaged.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
When he came down to the station and didn't tell
anybody that actually they're completely breaking up that halfway through
the mission.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Can you explain? Because this I found fascinating third quarter syndrome,
and as it relates to if you've been out of
society for a while and this is your society, you
don't really have somebody giving feedback on what's appropriate anymore
in society it's whatever this society you created says is appropriate.
What do you do? What do you do with third
quarter syndrome? When people are getting weird or weird or
(22:52):
weirder and that kind of stuff happens and you're in
total isolation. Who you calling?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
But I guess in reality, I think actually people were
more cautious about relationships and that kind of thing. And
you know, you could of It's not that you go
out and like Saturday night and be a bit loose
because because you're going to see the person the next
day and for the rest of the mission.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So actually, I think if anybody.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Actually had feelings for someone, then they would kind of
be a lot more slow, a lot more thoughtful about it.
And and I mean in reality, there wasn't it wasn't
really that much possi in terms of relationships. You know,
you're stuck with it. It's not that much choice. So
(23:42):
but I mean they have been relationships happening, and there's
also obviously been breakups as well, so it is a
difficult thing to manage, and I think crews do find
it difficult.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And and there were obviously sort of.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Interactions within the crew, which were sort of based on
that as well, which was sometimes challenging, especially as being
a female DYNA. So we have three girls and ten guys,
so that's like quite a big wow.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, can you explain that as a relate? So I
mentioned third quarter syndrome, can you explain to people there
are things that happen at different points and you need
to be aware of what's going to happen at those
different points and it's pretty standard, correct, Yeah, And I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So of course, it was just like it was really challenging,
Like I was, I was surprised by high challenging. It
was because you kind of cruised through the first two
what is and like, you know, the first quarter is
super exciting. You're in an out there for me my
dream to go down there, and there's a lot going on.
There's a lot to like keep you busy or like
setting up all the experiments. And then you kind of
(24:46):
come into the second quarter and you've still got like
little bits to do, but you're kind of getting the
hang of being there and you're kind of getting used
to it, and you know, it's like when you go
on holiday, you know, the environment feels kind of crazy
to start with but then you kind of get used
to it wherever you are in the world. And you're
also going into like the long polar night, so that
has its novelty as well. With like you know, firsh
(25:06):
you like walk out the door in the middle of
the day and it would be like you look at
the milk away and it.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Was like it's pretty special. It's kind of cool time.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
And then you come to midwinter, which is like kind
of like Christmas in Antarctica, and that time also is
kind of nice because you're like you're interacting with all
the other stations, like only obviously not in person, but
like over a messenger and stuff, and wishing each other
like happy midwinter, and like having celebrations as a crew,
which you're all kind of actually importantly all working together
(25:35):
on the same task, which is actually really good for
the team dynamics, you know, having these like communal things
that you're working on. And then it's over and everyone
just feels completely lost. You're like exhausted. You haven't seen
the sun for like over a month. You feel like
you've been in Antarctica forever and it's still exactly the
same amount of time left to go, and people just
(25:58):
get really really down, really tired, really forgetful, Like I remember,
I would start because because of FT three syndrome as well,
you just get really forgetful and a bit confused, and
like you'd be trying to put like the wrong shoe
on the wrong foot.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
I would start doing a task and then.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I forgot that I've done that and start doing something else,
and then like turn around me and realize that, like
the SUSI has been going for like hours. You're like, oh,
so it was just it was a really confusing time
and and yeah, and everyone did struggle. That's definitely where
a lot of the arguments kind of came up. I
think in terms of arguments, it was kind of interesting.
I thought that it would be like more fiery because
(26:36):
I was on a French Italian station. We've got Italians everywhere.
You think it's going to be like a bit more hectic,
But actually it was like this weird kind of Nobody
wanted to be like the bad guy, and so nobody
wanted to be visually seen as being obnoxious or annoying
or like as being.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Mean to someone else, and so just keep me an idea.
There was one person that didn't particularly like me on
the crew and instead of like being openly unpleasant to me,
they would just like hide all my things.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Constantly hide all your things.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Yeah, so I'd go to go outside, like obviously you
need loads of gear to go. It's like it's like
minus eighty centigrade really really cool, and.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Like my glove would be gone and you're like, where's
my glove? Got?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like and then the next day again, then my boots
would be gone and it would be like hidden somewhere
in the station.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
It just dave you not. It was just like this
weird like underlying thing going on the station.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Are you then allowed to write down? This man should
not go to Mars? Are you allowed to report? How
about this man should not be out of this room
tomorrow if you took my boots? What are you kidding me?
How do you go to the next day if he did? Okay,
it's small.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
Thing to do, but it drives you crazy, Like.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It's not small. That's not small.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I mean you need that just like hiding the toilet paper.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
That's not all the chocolate in the roof as well, that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I would do. What do you do to have people? Well?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
So like so I mean a lot of work has
been done on this particular period to try and like
try and make improve it. And I mean one of
the one of the biggest things which I just touched
on there was about having these team tasks because actually
as a crew, you all go down because you have
your own skill or skill set. Because they can't have
(28:31):
many people on the station. They want to have as
few people in the station as possible to make it
all work properly, and so you're all quite individually quite
different in terms of what skills you're bringing to the station,
and so as the virtue is that you end up
all having quite different jobs and tasks on the station,
and you're not often working collaboratively on lots of things.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
And so one of the big things.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
That they found has been really effective in improving team
cohesion is having these like shared goals within the team.
And so there's a big focus of that during that period.
And it's kind of interesting because like actually Concordia, which
is that station the first over winter, the station wasn't
quite ready to be to be overwintered in a lot
(29:16):
of it still hadn't been finished, like the kitchen wasn't done,
the like sinning area wasn't done, and there was a
big kind of question over whether or not they were
going to winter or not, and in the end they
decided that they would, but that the crew would help
kind of build the station during that winter, and it
was actually the most effective winter that they ever had
because the crew were all like working together on all
these shared tasks trying to build everything and try to
(29:38):
make everything, and it was.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
Actually really good for the dynamics team.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And so we try and like replicate that as well
in future over winters, to try and put these kind
of artificial tasks in place where people have to work
together effectively for and that's been fun to be really useful.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
How about this test and we found my freaking book. Yeah,
I'm going to go back a step. Wait, wait, wait,
because I'm trying to understand.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
So you said there was one person on the crew
who decided that he didn't you said, like you or whatever?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
But did they? Did they? At what point did he
realize that? I mean?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Did would they have sent you in if if they
knew that that somehow somebody irritated somebody going in? Is
that part of the researcher I'm trying to figure out
what the hell you could have done to this guy?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I would they not have screened for that or something.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Well, the chef actually from the winter before, so he
was like coming out of his winter when I was
going into my winter.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
We had like a bit of overlap during the summertime,
and he.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Actually wrote to Easther and said that he thought that
I was an experiment that being put into the project
because I was like a young girl and thought that
it was Easter trying to mess with the dynamics station
and that I should be like removed from the program
before we even Oh it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
That wasn't a red flag for Captain whoever.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
They think it's like an episode of Big Brother, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So we gotta wrap like two questions. Do you have
locks on the doors? No, okay, I don't. That's something
I'm bringing. I'm bringing a padlock. That's number one. But
I also wonder too about the answer morphizing If I
got that right, like and castaway. I understand with like
seafaring guys who were lost and seeing whatever they start
(31:25):
doing that that that Wilson the volleyball is not an
unusual story.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah, so when I arrived again, so when I arrived
during the summer, the overwintering crew from before just leaving,
and one of them had like all the fresh fruit
and vegetables and everything comes in during the summer on
the flight, and one of them had like find like
a lettice leave with like a slug on it and
like it kept it as like a pet because like
we and I was like, this is staying up. So
(31:51):
I like come from like London like May and but
actually like by the time I got to the end
of my winter, I can kind of relate to it
because it's strange, like at Congoria, there's no path, there's
no other animals living. We haven't even found bacteria to
be able to survive in the environment outside because it's
just so extreme, and so you just get this weird
(32:12):
thing where like everyone's kind of the same age more
or less. But you don't see old people, you don't
see young people, you don't see any animals. You don't
see like you don't get to like jump and submerge
yourself into water because it's all frazen. You know, like
if you like throw a hot cup of tea outside,
the window vaporizes before and there's these weird simple things
of life that you really miss. Just like the smell
(32:33):
of trees, there's no mud or dirt or anything like that,
and so there is something different and there's something special
about being off for sure, which makes you kind of
trip a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
I think, doctor bethewly, thank you so much. Are you
going back into some sort of crazy situation or are
you done with that?
Speaker 5 (32:51):
We'll see. I'm always you know, I'm somewhere remote, but
maybe not.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And if you see the butter, if you're out in
the of and you see I'm the boot stealer, do
you go? I mean, yeah, something waiting now right here.
We're going at it right now, thanks very much.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yeah, Now I'll go to the moon. You take me
to the moon. I think that's really all right.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
How you would go to the moon?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Probably the yeah, yeah, don't wait for me to go
on that mission.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
If you want to get that. He's not even going
up to the council to go.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
That would be the worst part for me, is going
into the There's no way. Yeah, that would be well,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I hope you get your dreams and wishes and maybe
we'll talk to you after the moon mission. So do
you know what God meane? What I realize is after
a certain period of time become seinfall because firshing a yelling,
(33:51):
she stealing. It's like that's I read about that third
quarter syndrome where like the first half you're excited and
then you're just not and then you get aggressive. I
don't need to be a guy underpants.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, the other thing I wanted to tsk that we
didn't ask is you know, would it be better or
worse if you sent actual couples or if you spent
very close friends.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Is it gonna be Is it gonna help the situation?
Or are they gonna Are they gonna fall apart?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
We kill each other in the first third because they're
already knowing each other.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Here's the other thing. This is the real thing I understand.
I'm sure the excitement of exploration. I would I listen
if if we suddenly are sending a mission to Mars.
I'm gonna be listening to that story in Celan because
I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But what do we do?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And they go, well, we have to get to Mars
to get beyond. Beyond is worse.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
And I'll tell you something else. You're my closest friend
in the world. We've spent over thirty some years. We
spent a lot of time together. I love you. You're
in that thing with me. I'll kill you. I'll kill you.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
We haven't shared a hotel room. You and I would
kill you. You're in the room next door.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Are your mother? You hid my sod? So stopping you?
Can you imagine you hid my glove? I can't go
outside because things that annoy us. Now that we go outside,
we joke about what annoys is now in part of
our friendship. Right months five in isolation, it's over. Where's Jason?
I don't want to say, is that his blood on
your shirt could be Google high.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
I have her glove.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And we're out. Good night, everybody.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
You've convinced me that isolation may be best for something
some people, and I can clearly say not choosing me
from Mars.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Goodbye now by everybody.
Speaker 7 (35:42):
As another episode of really no really, he comes to
a close. I know you're wondering who holds the record
for being in isolation the longest. Well, I will share
that answer with you and you alone in a moment.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
But first let's thank our guest, doctor Beth Heally.
Speaker 7 (35:57):
You can follow her on Instagram and x where she
is at Bethaheally or on her website betheely dot com,
although of course her actually contacting you back is unlikely.
Find all pertinent links in our show notes, our little
show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and threads at
really No Really podcasts, And of course you can share
(36:18):
your thoughts and feedback with us online at reallynoreally dot com.
If you have a really some amazing factor story that
boggles your mind, share it with us, and if we
use it, we will send you a little gift. Nothing
life changing, obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check
out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe button
and take that bell so you're updated when we release
(36:40):
new videos and episodes, which we do each Tuesday. So
listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts. And now the answer
to the question what is the longest a human being
has lived in self inflicted isolation? Well, the current record
seems to be held by Beatrice Flamini, an extreme athlete
(37:00):
from Spain. Her comparison, the previous record had been held
by an Italian sociologist named Maurizio Montalbini he spent two
hundred and ten days completely isolated from everyone and everything
in a cave in nineteen eighty seven. Ms Flamini, however,
blew that record away when she isolated herself in an
underground cave from November of twenty twenty one till April
(37:22):
of twenty twenty three, for a grand total of five
hundred days, more than doubling the record. She spent much
of the time exercising.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Drawing, reading, and knitting.
Speaker 7 (37:32):
She could send text messages out, but could not receive
messages back. She was sent supplies but never saw or
interacted with her supply team. After emerging from the cave,
she said she basically enjoyed her time alone and felt
she could easily have gone another five hundred days without
any emotional problems, Which leads me to think, what with
all the problems in this world, maybe the answers we
(37:53):
just moved back to the caves. People Who's with me?
Or more relevantly, who's willing to leave me alone?
Speaker 4 (38:00):
M hm?
Speaker 7 (38:05):
Really? No, really is production of iHeart Radio and Blaise
Entertainment
Speaker 2 (38:12):
M
Really now, really.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Really now, really hello, and welcome to really know Really
Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who remind you that subscribing
to our show means you are never ever truly alone.
But speaking of being truly alone, NASA plans to send
humans on a scientific round trip to Mars, potentially as
early as twenty thirty five. Beyond the technical challenges, the
(00:29):
big question is whether human beings would be capable of
dealing with the long period of isolation and loneliness necessary
to make the journey. Anxiety, depression, cognitive decline, emotional dysregulation,
weakened immune system, and even hallucinations and delusions are just
some of the effects of isolation, none of which are
exactly ideal when sending people to a distant planet with
(00:52):
sketchy odds of a successful return, and that's why scientists
have begun researching isolation in some of the most remote places.
Honor Doctor Beth Gely is not only one of those scientists,
she's also a research guinea pig. She studies the effects
of extreme isolation in Antarctica at the Space Flight Research
Center Concordia, otherwise known as White Mars. We spoke with
(01:15):
doctor Heely about which human traits are best suited for
handling isolation, how she has personally dealt with it, and
how befriending of volleyball like Tom Hanks did in the
movie Castaway, is an actual phenomenon. Really, no, really, And
now here are two guys whose friendship I value almost
as much as my volleyball, Jason and Peter.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Now, this is we're gonna we're gonna talk about isolation today.
And here's so, this is the one that I asked
you about. I had read a thing about you know,
they're talking about isolation on the long space flight to Mars?
Can we survive it? And then you know, and then
not only is it the flight, but then you're on
(01:57):
an uninhabited Atlanta in another world. I still, to this day,
I have trouble spending long periods of time alone. I'm
not good alone. I thrive on social interactions. Yeah, and
it doesn't. And honestly, I was finding COVID. I turned
to my wife after three months of basically just being
with her, and I go, this is good. I'm happy.
(02:19):
I'm very happy with you. You're a great company. But alone
would be challenging for me. Are you good alone?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I'm really good alone? Are you really I am really
good alone? I don't have any trouble occupying myself. You
know what like the fun of this show for me,
Believe or Not is researching and going down rabbit holes
to find it, because every question when you research something
leads to another question. I did that and talk greater fears.
I love I talk? Were you in talk right now?
(02:45):
I love? How long were you in talk right now?
It's about thirty years?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
When people say you're kind, but I just well you
you got to me about how I say, can I
ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm just saying, how many times do I have to
hear it when it right? So they can I ask
your question? How long will you talk right? I'm sorry
to interrupt.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I want to answer until I interrupted you in talk
right now?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You go down here and you go isolation, and then
you find out what kind of personality does well in isolation,
whether personality rates because our guests has gone to numerous
places that are isolated. She's a research scientist to specialize
in this. I get it, But what's your brain that
you go? This is what I want to do and
I constantly want to go to these places which are challenging. Isolated,
(03:33):
it's dark for three months, there's no no day, it's
it's all right. And the challenge is that I don't
want challenges. I don't even want to go camp. We
used to camp when we were kids. If I can't
plug in a hair dryer and a mini fridge and
order something for take, you know, I'm not going.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's the longest. What's the longest you ever been all alone?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Really alone? Intensive care? But people are around. God, I
don't know. I don't know how long I've been around
when people in vacation. I'm home alone, but there's people outside,
there's somebody delivering mail. You're never really I've never been
in isolation. Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You know, the longest is when my parents went away
the first time, left me alone in the house for
a week and I was sixteen, I think fifteen or sixteen,
and I did something stupid, you know what I did.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
There's no way to start isolation. Friday.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They left on Friday morning, so I go to school,
I come back in the world is mine. It's my house,
my house. Friday night, I stay up really late and
I watched the original. I'd never seen the original Night
of the Living Dead. Oh a choice, and I'm I'm petrified.
Bad choice. And I go up to the bedroom and
as I'm getting ready for bed, there's something in the basement.
There's noises coming out of the basement. And don't I
(04:44):
don't know what the hell it is. I don't know
what it is? And what do you do?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
What are you doing? Those things?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Every time we see people in horror films going going
to the thing, go you idiot, you idiot? Here I am,
so I grab a kitchen knife and I grab something
else and I'm now standing outside the basement door, listening,
and there is something in my basement. There is someone
down there. And I don't know where this came from.
The adrenaline and I throw open the door and I
(05:10):
flick on the light night and I yell out.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Something like I'll kill you.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I've been trying to think that I would scare the
psychomaniac that's down there. A squirrel ran across the floor.
I had a heart attack and died. This is not
me anymore. I died at age sixteen. Squirrel outside the
basement door. And by the way, I was paralyzed for
the weekend. I couldn't go to the to the bottom
floor of the house, didn't know what to do. Stay
(05:36):
stay upstairs. And somehow this rabbit squirrel was going to
chew through the basement door, find me and attack me
for calling him names. So all right, so today we're
talking about isolation. Let's introduce our guest, Beth Heally, doctor Bethiell,
doctor Beth Heale, excuse me, an emergency medicine doctor who's
worked for several years in the NHS and a variety
of international settings. She is worked all over the world
(06:00):
in a number of extreme and remote environments.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Valdbard, I didn't even know that was. I looked that
up to see if it was a joke, and they
just screwed that in.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
A place Svalbard, Siberia, Greenland, Antarctica of the North Pole.
She's a research MD for the European Space Agency. She
has wintered in Antarctica at the Spaceflight Analog Concordia, otherwise
known as White Mars.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
YEA, they recreate Mars. That's the closest thing. That's what
they send people to see if they can hack it. Yeah,
or Mar.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
She has researched the effects of isolation and extreme environment
on the psychology and physiology of her cruise. And she's
so she's been there, She's been in the true does it?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
She puts herself through this voluntary.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And so hopefully she'll join us because I know she
likes to be alone.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, they're larning her out with the pieces. They got
someone on a screen now trying to get So let's
say hello to doctor Beth Heally. So the big question
first say hello to a person. Oh, doctor Healely, how
are you great to see you? So Jason talked about her.
I have to teach him man, he's not a on
people a lot, doctor Hilling. I like isolation, but I wondered,
(07:04):
if we are built a man has evolved over the
thousand years to be who we are and live the
way we are and adapt to our surroundings. We're asking
man not to make a giant leap because we're going
to send you to another environment. And I understand it
would be like a three year trip back and forth.
Whatever are we capable from what you know in studying
isolation and living in isolation to do that? Is that realistic?
(07:27):
Or do you sit back going Oh are these.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, I mean it's it's a really interesting question because,
of course, as you say, we are developing the technology
required to take us on these longer duration missions. But
I really do think the biggest challenge is going to
be the human side. That's really what we were studying
in Antarctica Concordia Station where I was working, so I
was working for European Space Agency, and what we were
(07:53):
doing there is really researching the effects of isolation as
an analog for these long durations faceplight missions that it
is really going to be a huge challenge to get
us there safely, with good mental health and as a
web forming team.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
You get that smirk as you're saying that, by the way,
it means challenging. Did you see the wink on challenging
because she's well, you've I should say, and I know
you want to. You've done this repeatedly at different places
where you put yourself in isolation and also where the
environment's dark all day, where it's months and months of
no daylight.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But just so just so people listening have context, how
when you go to Concordia, which is in Antarctica, is.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
That correct exactly?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, it's on the Jame Charlie Plateau. It's closest neighbors
like Busto Conciple.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Right, Okay, And when when you're there and you're embedded
with these research teams, how long a period of time
are you are you all basically in that kind of
isolation when you're doing a research study.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
So I went to Antarctica and Concordia for fourteen months
when I was there, and then the isolation period of
that is like a nine month period where you're over
wentering and so that's where you've got. So we were
a crew of thirteen people for those nine months, and
we were considered completely inaccessible for that period even in
case of emergency. And we also, as you mentioned, had
(09:16):
like long periods of long polar night, so we went
for one hundred and five days without any sunlight at all.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Wow. So does that.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I just want to equate that to the intended Mars mission.
Are they talking about sending that many people in one mission?
Or is that considered a large group for a space mission?
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, so that's sort of larger groups than what's anticipated
for a Mars mission, although obviously if then you start
to get colonies, for example, on the lunar plant, lunar
surface or the Martian missions, that it could end up
being a bit longer, like realistically for the spaceship to
get two Mars, that's a higher number than what we expect.
The thing is, they're not just relying on one analog
(10:01):
program alone. So Concord is specifically looking at long duration spaceflight,
but it's also looking at it in the context of
a real mission in so much just to say that
the crew in Antarctica are completely isolated and really extreme conditions,
then so it's considered safer to have that number of
people on that specific environment platform. So that's why we
(10:22):
have thirteen, not because it necessarily reflects what we would
be doing for longeration missions, but we also do other
analog platforms which more accurately look at the sort of
size of the crew. So for example, Males five hundred
would be a good example of that. Whether they had
a six person crew on a simulated Martian mission, but
(10:44):
that was done in a much more controlled environment, so
it's done in like a Russian car park essentially, so
they sort of built the space ship, had a crew
of six people, did a fully like simulated mass mission,
and they had a lot more control over simulating, for example,
and accidents happening there, being like emergencies for the crew
which they had to deal with, and having that kind
(11:06):
of like high fidelity simulation.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
But what it missed is what Concordia can actually offer,
which is.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
That real life danger of being in an isolated and
remote environment. And so I think actually, personally, I would
have found it much harder to have gone on the
Mass five hundred mission, which is the car Park one,
because I think for me, like a lot of the
stress that I had was actually during the summer time
(11:32):
in Antarctica, where I still had the choice to leave,
and it's actually really stressful kind of period because at
that point you still have that choice, and so I
spent a lot of that time thinking, you know, is
it a good decision to stay here, What's going to happen?
Like should I go on the next plane home and
actually just quit? Whereas actually it was kind of almost
like a relief when the last plane left and you
(11:52):
suddenly were like, Okay, I'm doing this, and your mind
actually like psychologically switches to different mode because you know
that you can't even so actually the worries and sort
of anxieties, you have a different and so I think
if I've been in that other simulated mission, that the
psychological challenges are actually quite different. So I think it's
(12:13):
really important to have all these different types of animals
looking at lots of different aspects get you much like
for a bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So we're going to dig into this, but I just
want to jump to the big picture question in your
professional opinion, are.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
They going to be able to pull this off? Or
is this is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
This a hope to Christ kind of thing I can do?
You think, based on what you've seen in experience, that
there are enough people who could actually endure this kind
of isolation and this kind of stress successfully and accomplish
the intended Mars mission.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
So I think we'll do it, but I'm not sure
if you're ready yet. I think that's kind of how
I feel. I think like a lot of these programs
are doing really valuable research and like looking at the
challenges that we're going to face and trying to put
in character measures to try and help prevent those challenges
that we've researched that the team are likely to experience.
(13:06):
But I think that there still needs a lot of
research in this area to help optimize the team most effectively,
like in terms of team selection, preparing the team, making
sure that you have the right composition of team and
that you're preparing them well in terms of the appropriate
counter measures in place, and also monitoring of the team
performance during that mission to make sure that it's successful.
(13:27):
I think, I think it's wrong to think that we
can just you know, just pop a crew on a
Mars mission, like all of this training. But I think
that there is a lot of this research taking place,
like the Concordia platform, like last five hundred, like lots
of other research projects that are going on, and I
think that these are really valuable, and I think that
we really have to like continue to do that to
(13:49):
make sure that we're ready when the technology arrives, to
make sure that we can safety send a team.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So doctor Hilly, what I got to know, A who
are you that you love going to these places? What
personality you And as part of that, you've got to
pick the right personality traits for these people who are going.
I mean, you're going to make sure that they can
live in that environment. And are the tests you get
people to say this guy is going to go he's
gonna hit crazy about day thirteen because looking at us,
(14:15):
I'm guessing day three Are you and I going together?
Because it's day one? Who goes in first, who goes
in second? Were the engines are firing? Wait a minute,
Peter's here. Peter's so yeah, if you can wrap that
all into one, your personality, the personality traits of the
people going, and how they test that. So you know,
(14:36):
louis going crazy J nine here, I'm not going with him.
How do you figure that out?
Speaker 5 (14:41):
But that's it, I mean, and it's not only just
is that person okay? But are they in the right team?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
As well?
Speaker 4 (14:47):
You know, it's like so you could have six of
the right people, but just not the right composition and
like having clashing perfities. And you know, like when we
went on to Concordia, like in fact that our whole
crew didn't even make it to Concordia because you we
were like de selected at the training stages.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
So we did lots of training before we went down there.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
We had like TESTA and people were sort of de
selected before you even made it. And I think that
was really important for our crew. And it's going to
have to obviously be even more strict to go on
these longer duration missions. Yeah, so I mean it's interesting
as well about like who is the good person? You know,
(15:24):
So in some ways you want sociable people because they're
going to be able to get on with each other,
because you know, you talk about isolation, and while you
are isolated, you're also super in close proximity with your
crew as well. So it's kind of this weird thing
where you need to be sociable but not too sociable
that you're going to be able to get on well
with the team, but then you're also not going to
(15:45):
miss too much having that social interaction back at home.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
And so there's lots of different factors.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
And then it's also about understanding your crew as well,
and so we did lots of training at the European
National Center before we went, which is sort of human
behavior performance training, and a lot of that was focused
on really understanding and how your crew react in different
situations and how you react in different situations. And from
having that better understanding and knowledge of how people reacting
(16:13):
these stressful situations, you're able to kind of predict how
people are feeling before they might even realize it themselves.
So just to give you an idea, you know, when
I'm super stressed, I go really quiet. That's how I react.
And so if people notice in the crew that have
gone really quiet, they might pick up on the fact
that I'm not feeling good or like that, that something's
(16:34):
up with me before I might even notice myself. And
whereas other people, you know, get much more light and
much stress in when they're upset as well. I mean,
that's a very basic thing. And then also obviously on
top of that, you've got sort of cultural understanding as well,
because it's probably quite likely that a mission is going
to be a multicultural mission, and then also on top
(16:55):
of that sort of genders how that composition is going
to be and nationality and the cultural differences that come
with that as well, or going into malting pot, and
so it's hard to predict at this stage what and
who that mission is going to be. I mean, is
it going to be a commercial mission, is it going
to be a governmental mission? Is going to be a
mix of everything that we and which nationality we don't
really know at this point, but it's exciting.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
To think that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So what I want to follow up on when Peter
asked you, though, what is it as far as you
can assess, what is it about your emotional or character
makeup that has made this doable for you? I mean,
I understand that you're interested in the study, but you
have to be in it in order to do it.
So how did you know that you would be able to.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Function like this?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
It's a funny question that I get a lot, and
it's not that I had ever really honestly plan to
go and do it. I guess for me, like, so,
my background is I love skating, and so that had
taken to me to like lots of sort of extreme
remote places like for example, I've worked a lot in
Greenland already, I've been up to the North Pole, I've
done lots of of extreme environments stuff.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
And that really stems from a real interest in.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
How our bodies perform in these kind of extreme environments
and also like high performing teams, sports teams, that kind
of thing, and that's really what got me interested in
the project. And yeah, I guess when I first first
waked to Easter about the project for European Space Agency,
they were like, oh, yeah, it's going to be like
you know, like nine months maybe ten months and then
suddenly you're there for fourteen months. And I guess, like
(18:27):
for me, like personally, like I really like sort of
new experiences. I've been really interested in antartica and kind
of my whole life really and but the real thing
that sort of pinched it for me is that I
feel like, really passionate about exploration, and I really think
that sort of spaceflight is the next frontier of exploration,
and I think that as researchers we can well, you know,
(18:51):
while I'm I'm very unlikely to be on the Mars
mission myself, I think that, you know, when we do
step foot on Mars, I feel that by having anticipated
in the research and helping to sort of further our
knowledge on this subject, it really feels that you can
sort of be part of that. And for me, that's
really exciting and I want. That's what really sort of
(19:11):
matanated me to go down into it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
So I'll ask this of you, but I guess you
can extrapolate it into people who participate in this. So
you said, oh, I thought it'd begon eight nine months,
and it turn I'd be fourteen months.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
What happens to all your.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Relationships, your friendships your parents, your siblings, your significant others
or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean, if you're in isolation, are.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
You allowed to be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Or you?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's just all on hold.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
It's a funny thing actually, because.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Your friendships, your parents, your siblings, your significant others, or whatever.
I mean, if you're in isolation, are you allowed to
be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Or you?
Speaker 6 (20:01):
It's just all it's a funny thing actually because so
we did have contact, So we had like really slow internet.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
So it's a bit like darl up.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
You could go and like put like a Weber dress
into the Internet and then like come back in like
five minutes of pup of tea and it would have uploaded.
So you couldn't just like rise unless you have you know,
patients of the same. It's just like really slow. Having
said that, like if you pick like the right kind
of time of day. So we had a really limited
internet connection and a lot of that was used sort
(20:33):
of the bandwidth was used for uploading data, but if
you've sort of put it in the middle of the night,
you could get a really good like zoom call, for example,
with friends and family back home. It was kind of
weird because actually, I think if you were too much
in touch with your friends back home personally, it made
me feel really homesick. And also you could get like
anxious about different things going on, like world events and stuff,
(20:55):
because you're not able to actually, you know, if something
does go wrong, if you have a friend or many
members that's sick, like you're not able to go back
and see them, and so like it was always a
bit of a balance, you know, like some days it
was really good to kind of take a step back,
like speak to your friends, like it kind of put
a good perspective of life in the station. You know,
like at one point, everyone's getting it really upset because
(21:16):
we've run out of taking napkins.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
And like at the time, it seemed like the biggest
problem in the world.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
And then you like call home and everyone's just like
what baf what are you on about it? Like it's
really not an issue, And then it was actually really helpful.
But at other points, you know, you'd be like sat
on like Saturday night, like we were friends going out
in like London, and you're just like, oh, what am
I doing here? Like start in the middle of nowhere
and made you a bit jealous, So I think I
think it's important to like have a bit of a limit.
(21:42):
And it's an interesting question for like long deration space fight,
especially because you know, if you have just unlimited access
of communication to friends and family back home, then we're
not able to like monitor what's coming in, and so
we're also not able to monitor like bad news and
so like historically on Antarctic stations, all the messages used
(22:03):
to come through the station leader. Through that that they
were also able to like monitor to some extent what
information was coming and so if there was, for example,
of fatality or like someone was breaking up, there's somebody
then they would have a better understanding of what might
be going on in that person's life and also be
able to support them through that.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Some of those a guy who was engaged.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
When he came down to the station and didn't tell
anybody that actually they're completely breaking up that halfway through
the mission.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Can you explain? Because this I found fascinating third quarter syndrome,
and as it relates to if you've been out of
society for a while and this is your society, you
don't really have somebody giving feedback on what's appropriate anymore
in society it's whatever this society you created says is appropriate.
What do you do? What do you do with third
quarter syndrome? When people are getting weird or weird or
(22:52):
weirder and that kind of stuff happens and you're in
total isolation. Who you calling?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
But I guess in reality, I think actually people were
more cautious about relationships and that kind of thing. And
you know, you could of It's not that you go
out and like Saturday night and be a bit loose
because because you're going to see the person the next
day and for the rest of the mission.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So actually, I think if anybody.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Actually had feelings for someone, then they would kind of
be a lot more slow, a lot more thoughtful about it.
And and I mean in reality, there wasn't it wasn't
really that much possi in terms of relationships. You know,
you're stuck with it. It's not that much choice. So
(23:42):
but I mean they have been relationships happening, and there's
also obviously been breakups as well, so it is a
difficult thing to manage, and I think crews do find
it difficult.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And and there were obviously sort of.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Interactions within the crew, which were sort of based on
that as well, which was sometimes challenging, especially as being
a female DYNA. So we have three girls and ten guys,
so that's like quite a big wow.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, can you explain that as a relate? So I
mentioned third quarter syndrome, can you explain to people there
are things that happen at different points and you need
to be aware of what's going to happen at those
different points and it's pretty standard, correct, Yeah, And I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So of course, it was just like it was really challenging,
Like I was, I was surprised by high challenging. It
was because you kind of cruised through the first two
what is and like, you know, the first quarter is
super exciting. You're in an out there for me my
dream to go down there, and there's a lot going on.
There's a lot to like keep you busy or like
setting up all the experiments. And then you kind of
(24:46):
come into the second quarter and you've still got like
little bits to do, but you're kind of getting the
hang of being there and you're kind of getting used
to it, and you know, it's like when you go
on holiday, you know, the environment feels kind of crazy
to start with but then you kind of get used
to it wherever you are in the world. And you're
also going into like the long polar night, so that
has its novelty as well. With like you know, firsh
(25:06):
you like walk out the door in the middle of
the day and it would be like you look at
the milk away and it.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Was like it's pretty special. It's kind of cool time.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
And then you come to midwinter, which is like kind
of like Christmas in Antarctica, and that time also is
kind of nice because you're like you're interacting with all
the other stations, like only obviously not in person, but
like over a messenger and stuff, and wishing each other
like happy midwinter, and like having celebrations as a crew,
which you're all kind of actually importantly all working together
(25:35):
on the same task, which is actually really good for
the team dynamics, you know, having these like communal things
that you're working on. And then it's over and everyone
just feels completely lost. You're like exhausted. You haven't seen
the sun for like over a month. You feel like
you've been in Antarctica forever and it's still exactly the
same amount of time left to go, and people just
(25:58):
get really really down, really tired, really forgetful, Like I remember,
I would start because because of FT three syndrome as well,
you just get really forgetful and a bit confused, and
like you'd be trying to put like the wrong shoe
on the wrong foot.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
I would start doing a task and then.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I forgot that I've done that and start doing something else,
and then like turn around me and realize that, like
the SUSI has been going for like hours. You're like, oh,
so it was just it was a really confusing time
and and yeah, and everyone did struggle. That's definitely where
a lot of the arguments kind of came up. I
think in terms of arguments, it was kind of interesting.
I thought that it would be like more fiery because
(26:36):
I was on a French Italian station. We've got Italians everywhere.
You think it's going to be like a bit more hectic,
But actually it was like this weird kind of Nobody
wanted to be like the bad guy, and so nobody
wanted to be visually seen as being obnoxious or annoying
or like as being.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Mean to someone else, and so just keep me an idea.
There was one person that didn't particularly like me on
the crew and instead of like being openly unpleasant to me,
they would just like hide all my things.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Constantly hide all your things.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Yeah, so I'd go to go outside, like obviously you
need loads of gear to go. It's like it's like
minus eighty centigrade really really cool, and.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Like my glove would be gone and you're like, where's
my glove? Got?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like and then the next day again, then my boots
would be gone and it would be like hidden somewhere
in the station.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
It just dave you not. It was just like this
weird like underlying thing going on the station.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Are you then allowed to write down? This man should
not go to Mars? Are you allowed to report? How
about this man should not be out of this room
tomorrow if you took my boots? What are you kidding me?
How do you go to the next day if he did? Okay,
it's small.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
Thing to do, but it drives you crazy, Like.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It's not small. That's not small.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I mean you need that just like hiding the toilet paper.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
That's not all the chocolate in the roof as well, that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I would do. What do you do to have people? Well?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
So like so I mean a lot of work has
been done on this particular period to try and like
try and make improve it. And I mean one of
the one of the biggest things which I just touched
on there was about having these team tasks because actually
as a crew, you all go down because you have
your own skill or skill set. Because they can't have
(28:31):
many people on the station. They want to have as
few people in the station as possible to make it
all work properly, and so you're all quite individually quite
different in terms of what skills you're bringing to the station,
and so as the virtue is that you end up
all having quite different jobs and tasks on the station,
and you're not often working collaboratively on lots of things.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
And so one of the big things.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
That they found has been really effective in improving team
cohesion is having these like shared goals within the team.
And so there's a big focus of that during that period.
And it's kind of interesting because like actually Concordia, which
is that station the first over winter, the station wasn't
quite ready to be to be overwintered in a lot
(29:16):
of it still hadn't been finished, like the kitchen wasn't done,
the like sinning area wasn't done, and there was a
big kind of question over whether or not they were
going to winter or not, and in the end they
decided that they would, but that the crew would help
kind of build the station during that winter, and it
was actually the most effective winter that they ever had
because the crew were all like working together on all
these shared tasks trying to build everything and try to
(29:38):
make everything, and it was.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
Actually really good for the dynamics team.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And so we try and like replicate that as well
in future over winters, to try and put these kind
of artificial tasks in place where people have to work
together effectively for and that's been fun to be really useful.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
How about this test and we found my freaking book. Yeah,
I'm going to go back a step. Wait, wait, wait,
because I'm trying to understand.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
So you said there was one person on the crew
who decided that he didn't you said, like you or whatever?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
But did they? Did they? At what point did he
realize that? I mean?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Did would they have sent you in if if they
knew that that somehow somebody irritated somebody going in? Is
that part of the researcher I'm trying to figure out
what the hell you could have done to this guy?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I would they not have screened for that or something.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Well, the chef actually from the winter before, so he
was like coming out of his winter when I was
going into my winter.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
We had like a bit of overlap during the summertime,
and he.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Actually wrote to Easther and said that he thought that
I was an experiment that being put into the project
because I was like a young girl and thought that
it was Easter trying to mess with the dynamics station
and that I should be like removed from the program
before we even Oh it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
That wasn't a red flag for Captain whoever.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
They think it's like an episode of Big Brother, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So we gotta wrap like two questions. Do you have
locks on the doors? No, okay, I don't. That's something
I'm bringing. I'm bringing a padlock. That's number one. But
I also wonder too about the answer morphizing If I
got that right, like and castaway. I understand with like
seafaring guys who were lost and seeing whatever they start
(31:25):
doing that that that Wilson the volleyball is not an
unusual story.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah, so when I arrived again, so when I arrived
during the summer, the overwintering crew from before just leaving,
and one of them had like all the fresh fruit
and vegetables and everything comes in during the summer on
the flight, and one of them had like find like
a lettice leave with like a slug on it and
like it kept it as like a pet because like
we and I was like, this is staying up. So
(31:51):
I like come from like London like May and but
actually like by the time I got to the end
of my winter, I can kind of relate to it
because it's strange, like at Congoria, there's no path, there's
no other animals living. We haven't even found bacteria to
be able to survive in the environment outside because it's
just so extreme, and so you just get this weird
(32:12):
thing where like everyone's kind of the same age more
or less. But you don't see old people, you don't
see young people, you don't see any animals. You don't
see like you don't get to like jump and submerge
yourself into water because it's all frazen. You know, like
if you like throw a hot cup of tea outside,
the window vaporizes before and there's these weird simple things
of life that you really miss. Just like the smell
(32:33):
of trees, there's no mud or dirt or anything like that,
and so there is something different and there's something special
about being off for sure, which makes you kind of
trip a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
I think, doctor bethewly, thank you so much. Are you
going back into some sort of crazy situation or are
you done with that?
Speaker 5 (32:51):
We'll see. I'm always you know, I'm somewhere remote, but
maybe not.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And if you see the butter, if you're out in
the of and you see I'm the boot stealer, do
you go? I mean, yeah, something waiting now right here.
We're going at it right now, thanks very much.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yeah, Now I'll go to the moon. You take me
to the moon. I think that's really all right.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
How you would go to the moon?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Probably the yeah, yeah, don't wait for me to go
on that mission.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
If you want to get that. He's not even going
up to the council to go.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
That would be the worst part for me, is going
into the There's no way. Yeah, that would be well,
good luck.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I hope you get your dreams and wishes and maybe
we'll talk to you after the moon mission. So do
you know what God meane? What I realize is after
a certain period of time become seinfall because firshing a yelling,
(33:51):
she stealing. It's like that's I read about that third
quarter syndrome where like the first half you're excited and
then you're just not and then you get aggressive. I
don't need to be a guy underpants.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, the other thing I wanted to tsk that we
didn't ask is you know, would it be better or
worse if you sent actual couples or if you spent
very close friends.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Is it gonna be Is it gonna help the situation?
Or are they gonna Are they gonna fall apart?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
We kill each other in the first third because they're
already knowing each other.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Here's the other thing. This is the real thing I understand.
I'm sure the excitement of exploration. I would I listen
if if we suddenly are sending a mission to Mars.
I'm gonna be listening to that story in Celan because
I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But what do we do?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And they go, well, we have to get to Mars
to get beyond. Beyond is worse.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
And I'll tell you something else. You're my closest friend
in the world. We've spent over thirty some years. We
spent a lot of time together. I love you. You're
in that thing with me. I'll kill you. I'll kill you.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
We haven't shared a hotel room. You and I would
kill you. You're in the room next door.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Are your mother? You hid my sod? So stopping you?
Can you imagine you hid my glove? I can't go
outside because things that annoy us. Now that we go outside,
we joke about what annoys is now in part of
our friendship. Right months five in isolation, it's over. Where's Jason?
I don't want to say, is that his blood on
your shirt could be Google high.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
I have her glove.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And we're out. Good night, everybody.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
You've convinced me that isolation may be best for something
some people, and I can clearly say not choosing me
from Mars.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Goodbye now by everybody.
Speaker 7 (35:42):
As another episode of really no really, he comes to
a close. I know you're wondering who holds the record
for being in isolation the longest. Well, I will share
that answer with you and you alone in a moment.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
But first let's thank our guest, doctor Beth Heally.
Speaker 7 (35:57):
You can follow her on Instagram and x where she
is at Bethaheally or on her website betheely dot com,
although of course her actually contacting you back is unlikely.
Find all pertinent links in our show notes, our little
show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and threads at
really No Really podcasts, And of course you can share
(36:18):
your thoughts and feedback with us online at reallynoreally dot com.
If you have a really some amazing factor story that
boggles your mind, share it with us, and if we
use it, we will send you a little gift. Nothing
life changing, obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check
out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe button
and take that bell so you're updated when we release
(36:40):
new videos and episodes, which we do each Tuesday. So
listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts. And now the answer
to the question what is the longest a human being
has lived in self inflicted isolation? Well, the current record
seems to be held by Beatrice Flamini, an extreme athlete
(37:00):
from Spain. Her comparison, the previous record had been held
by an Italian sociologist named Maurizio Montalbini he spent two
hundred and ten days completely isolated from everyone and everything
in a cave in nineteen eighty seven. Ms Flamini, however,
blew that record away when she isolated herself in an
underground cave from November of twenty twenty one till April
(37:22):
of twenty twenty three, for a grand total of five
hundred days, more than doubling the record. She spent much
of the time exercising.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Drawing, reading, and knitting.
Speaker 7 (37:32):
She could send text messages out, but could not receive
messages back. She was sent supplies but never saw or
interacted with her supply team. After emerging from the cave,
she said she basically enjoyed her time alone and felt
she could easily have gone another five hundred days without
any emotional problems, Which leads me to think, what with
all the problems in this world, maybe the answers we
(37:53):
just moved back to the caves. People Who's with me?
Or more relevantly, who's willing to leave me alone?
Speaker 4 (38:00):
M hm?
Speaker 7 (38:05):
Really? No, really is production of iHeart Radio and Blaise
Entertainment
Speaker 2 (38:12):
M
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Peter Tilden
Jason Alexander
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