July 9, 2024 • 38 mins
When Jason and Peter heard about a study suggesting that children in The Netherlands were the happiest kids in the world, their reaction was naturally…Really, no really!
They were determined to find out how The Netherlands was able to lay claim to having the happiest children in the world! And more importantly…if their claim was true, what could be learned from their child rearing techniques. They also wanted to figure out the correct name for the country, since people refer to it as - “Netherlands” or “The Netherlands” or “Holland”!
For answers they turned to an actual Netherlander (or whatever they’re called) Veronique van der Kleij. She is a child and school psychologist who has worked at The International School of the Hague with children, adolescents, and their families. She specializes in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT), and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). She also has a master’s in child and Adolescent Psychology, and a 2-year post-master degree in School Psychology.
IN THIS EPISODE:
- What differentiates kids in Holland from those in other countries.
- The impact of helicopter parenting.
- Bikes and kids…the surprising benefits!
- Dutch kids & social media – how they interact.
- How the Dutch discuss sex, drugs, gender and other difficult conversations.
- The shocking differences in parental leave in The Netherlands!
- How parents punish their children in Holland.
- The importance of allowing kids to make mistakes.
- Jason’s extraordinary journey to happiness and contentedness.
- Googleheim: The Netherlands or Holland?
***
FOLLOW VERONIQUE:
Website: Calm-Mind-Psychology.nl
LinkedIN @Veronique van der Kleij
***
FOLLOW REALLY NO REALLY:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Now really.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Really now really hello, and welcome to really know really
with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who remind you that
children of people who subscribe to our show are the
happiest children in the world. The caveat to that is
that your subscription and your children must be in the Netherlands,
because the recent study suggests that children in the Netherlands
are in fact the happiest kids in the world. And
(00:27):
when we heard that here in the Home Office, our
reaction was naturally really no, really, So Jason and Peter
became determined to find out how a country was able
to lay claim to having the happiest children in the world, and,
more importantly, if true, what could be learned from their
child rearing techniques. They also wanted to figure out the
correct name for the country, since people refer to it
as Netherlands or the Netherlands or Holland. It's all very confusing,
(00:51):
so for answers they turned to an actual Netherlander or
whatever they're called, very unique vonder Klay. She's a child
and school psychologist who has also worked at the Intern
National School of the Hague with children, adolescents and their
families and now here are two guys whose children really
wish they had done this episode years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Jason and Peter.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I know today is a very uh it's kind of
a wonderful topic, but it depresses me going in because
by its very nature it's comparative, and I'm on the
wrong side of the comparison. Other people are happy and
add E r happy er than I am, and by
the way in the world around.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But the thing that she make you happy is you
have a best friend and partner. Most of the time,
barometer wized is even less avocate.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hence that's why it makes you feel.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You feel so much better and me continuously crappy. So
this show, I say, what.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Makes the best friend a best friend?
Speaker 4 (01:44):
You feel better an the when they do because they
are worse comparison.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You call me and you go, how's your day? And
I go, oh, man, it's not good. You go, wow,
I'm having a pretty good day. I'm tackling. I'm tackling.
So the topic is the Netherlands are home to the
happiest kids in the.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
World that there's already in and of its.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I got so annoyed, Why well the Netherlands, even the
name and even the notes nothing the nether regions, right,
don't go down there, that's your nether part.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So already. Usually when we see a topic that makes
it go really, it makes it go really no really,
this one had an adute went really no, really, they're
the happiest kids in the world. So and the Netherlands,
I guarantee. Now, if you're listening, if I walked in
the street, did a man on the street right now
insteads where's the Netherland? People wouldn't know it's a country, right,
they wouldn't know if it's the Netherlands or Netherlands? Right?
(02:39):
Is it Holland? Is it? Why are you not calling
it the Holland? And are the people the Holland deers?
And by the way, there's a whole the whole place
you live is a fesso.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
How can you be happy?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Every other country? This that in the room said, what
do you think? How Schmelsburg not good billy Germany. Let's
go with that. Yeah, here they went the Netherlands. Sounds
like we're going over the hill to an area of nondescript.
It's kind of like, yeah, yeah, where's it begin? Where's it?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Sounds like something in Hoppita and the Hague is there,
the Hague I made myself left day.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm happy every because of the Netherlands.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So we're gonna talk about that. So before we talk
about that, though, in this country, we have our our
traditions and the way we raise our kids in culture.
So I thought we'd give a comparative of some of
the other cultures in the world. So when we have
this guest on, we know how it's a child psychologist.
Great and she talks about what's going on in the
Netherlands slash Hollands slash.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
So there's a copyright infringement right there.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
All right, so let's find out. Let's talk to a
culture that allegedly has the happiest. So joining us now
is Veronic Voni.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You're gonna mess up the last that I know, but
at least get.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
The very neat there you go, very neat now Clay, right,
Vander Clay, Clay, I do this.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I got obviously someone else should be doing this. It
was a beautiful did your study it's a it's a
beautiful name, and thank you for coming on. You are
a child psychologist in the Netherlands. And we saw the
headline that the Netherlands is home to the world's happiest children,
and we had to find out a why b if
(04:28):
that's accurate how they judged that. But before we even
get into that, is it the Netherlands, Netherlands, Holland, the
kingdom of what is your country?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Sometimes there's the sometimes there's not.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
The It is the Netherlands, all right?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
And do you know offhand why it is the Netherlands?
Is that was there a guy named nether was there?
Was it a region that people it was below other things,
you know, and the history of how it.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Now prepared for this that's okay, I.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Have it for the end. I have it for the end.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Okay, okay, all right, you want to ask questions. So
let's talk about children, educated and highly respected person.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So what's different in the way kids are raised there
culturally than anywhere else.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
In the Netherlands.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
In the Netherlands, Yeah, it would make them happen. Now
you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I knew it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I knew it. You guys wanted us up. You know
that the lies it is really Holland. But somehow all right. Nevertheless, so, yes,
kids in the Netherlands, what's going on there that allegedly
makes them the happiest.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
Yeah, well, I do have to say obviously we're not
perfect either, but I think there are quite a few
things that we do that are having a positive effect
on our children's well being. I think one of the
things that we're very very good at is allowing our
children to learn independence at a very young age. We
(06:03):
tend and I'm not saying that everyone does that, but
we tend to let our children play quite independently by themselves,
like at the playground, without hovering too much, without you know,
catching them as soon as they might fall. Also with
for example, we cycle quite a bit here in the
(06:24):
Netherlands from a very very young age, and so children
learn this independence cycling by themselves. Also to school very
very young, usually when they're about like nine or ten.
We do already allow them to go independently to school
on their bicycles, but that's something that they learn quite young,
(06:45):
and I think that we try as Dutch parents to
give them a lot of freedom, and I think that
is part of one of the reasons why I think
they are quite happy in that sense.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
So anecdotally, what that reminds me of very nick is
when I was a kid in my neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Same thing.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I was on my bike my you know, I would
have breakfast on a Saturday, and then I'd go on
my bike and I'd be with my friends, no parental supervision,
and we'd come back for dinner. And that was the
norm if my child. When I became a parent a
mere thirty something years later, that was the scariest thing
we could imagine.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
What wait, let me ask you something there, because the
same thing with me, although my parents didn't care as much,
so there was not that much. But in our neighborhood,
in our neighborhood's growing up at that point, it was
my neighbors knew they would. There are a lot of
eyes on kids, so it was very different.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
And is that true there as well?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That it's sort of the village is aware that the
children are out and so as a community, you know,
they're watching other kids and the adults are sort of
keeping a distant but but focused eye on these kids.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I think it's so like a safety thing. I think
that's what you guys are talking about, right. It is,
I mean relatively safe here in the Netherlands, and our
roads are built so for if we're talking about the
cycling that we can safely cycle almost everywhere. It's easier
almost to take it. No, it is easier to take
your bicycle everywhere and not take your car. So it's
(08:23):
relatively safe here. But you know, we're also quite a
small country, so that feeling of you know, community and
not that we know everyone, but it is, you know,
taking care of each other. Even if you don't know
that child that's crossing the street with the bike, you do,
you know, take care of each other.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
In that sense.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
How much is that truly a part of the formula
for the fact that you have these happy kids? Is
it the fact that it really is small communities in
a small country. And I would also imagine, and I
don't mean this in any pejorative way, sort of homogeneous communities,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's the culture dates back.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So yeah, there's there's a My impression of having never
been there, is that there's sort of a singular culture.
There isn't a sort of melting pot culture that we
have here in the US.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Is that true?
Speaker 6 (09:15):
No, we do have quite a few different cultures here
as well. Yeah, we definitely do. We have lots of
different communities, the Turkish, the Moroccan communities. We have a
lot of people who've come from Africa as well who've
settled here right here or so it's it's not just Dutch.
(09:37):
We also have, especially like in the Hague. I live
close to the Hague, a lot of international families that
come and live here because of a lot of the
international organizations that we have here. So it's definitely not
just Dutch. But it depends on where you go in
the Netherlands. So where I live, it's very very international,
(09:58):
and we do have a lot of people who have
immigrated here, but there's also areas in the Netherlands that
it's very.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Very touch Yeah, okay, question the bike, the Viking, the
letting kids be independent of a certain age and looking
out for other people's kids. Does it translate across all
all the cultures there kind of feel the same way
about it. When they're exposed to that, they all embrace it.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Yeah, And I think I think other cultures have to
get used to it, because I mean I recently went
on holiday with my family and we were out at
the playground and you could see a couple. It was
a Dutch father and an American mother, and the Dutch
father was like, well, just let let let our daughter
go play, and the mom was like, He's like, oh,
(10:48):
let it go. She's fun. So you know, those cultures,
they also have to get used to it, right, but
they do. I think they do embrace it and they
see they see the benefit too. I noticed it with
some of the clients that I've had that I've had
as well into national clients in my practice. The parents say, yeah,
we've learnt a lot from the Dutch letting our children
go a bit more.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I'm curious. I remembered an incident with Robert when he
was six seven years old. He's playing soccer, and soccer
at that age is really about fifteen kids in a scrum.
They all get together, everybody's kicking everybody, dust is going up,
and then they separate. They're not really playing soccer fertida
the United States. It's not good. But I remember Robert
got pushed down and I, of course my wife and
(11:31):
rush out because my poor boy is on the ground crying.
And the mother of the other kid rushed out and
instead of saying to the kid, why did you push them?
She said, how did that make you feel? And I
knew something had changed. When the bully was being asked,
how does that make you feel where you are? Did
the parents interact and solve the kid's problems at that
age or do they let the kids figure out how
(11:52):
to get through the day without us hovering and without
us solving all your problems?
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Yeah, I think it. Yeah, I think it depends on
the age. But we do try to encourage them to
solve things by themselves. Also, like if you see like
little kids like sometimes falling at the playground, it's not
like the parents right away rush to help them. And
I'm not saying all parents, right, but other kids help
them as well, right, And it's not that the parents
(12:17):
aren't aware. We're aware, we're looking, but we're teaching them
maybe differently, right, teaching them to get up by themselves
or get their peers to help them. You learn a
lot from your peers as well. I mean, you learn
a lot from your parents, obviously, But yeah, so I think.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
It's that reflects something Peter and I were talking about
before you joined us about my kids. My wife and
I tried a program when we were raising our kids
when they were little that was developed by a woman
named Mogged Gerber, and it was called Research education infants,
And it was also very much the sort of engage
(12:56):
the child in their own life, even at the very
early of a month, six weeks, eight weeks. But when
a child would get when a baby would get frustrated
in a group of you know, there'd be like an
open mat and the babies are wandering around and they
get frustrated with something. The philosophy there was don't run
in and save it so fast. First of all, they
(13:20):
may figure it out. And second of all, it's okay
to be frustrated. That's one of those things that you
can be frustrated and get through it. And I was
saying to Peter it worked very well for one of
my kids and not very well for my other son.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And so, you know, I think it must be.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Hard as a parent because you work with children, but
I'm sure you work with families too, so it must
be hard for parents who have the inclination to jump
in to hold back. Is there for you if you
were just giving general advice to a parent who is
struggling with you know when to jump in and when not.
(13:56):
There is there sort of a tipping point where you go, yeah,
that means go in. But prior to that. Let's see
if you is there a way to look at those situations.
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Well, I mean, every child is unique, and I think
that's what you're describing as well. You don't have a
program that fits every child. You have to look at
what fits best for your child. And that's what I
work with When I work with parents, we always look
at well what fits your child, and as a parent,
you know very very well what your child needs. Right,
(14:28):
So if you feel that this is too much for
them or they really need help here, then you also
have to trust your instinct. And what I'm talking about
are general things. Right. Generally, it's good to let them
figure things out. But if you've tried that and you notice, okay,
this doesn't work so well with my child, then you
know you have to find a different way that works
(14:49):
better to teach them the same things. Right.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I want to jump for a second too again this
notion of the Netherlands producing happier kids, and I want
to jump a little bit to some of the influences
on the older kids. So I have to assume that
those kids are as engaged with social media as any
(15:14):
other as teenagers and kids in our country, and what
we're hearing more and more is that social media is
having a tremendous negative impact, building all kinds of stresses
and all kinds of problems. Are the kids in your
country somehow avoiding those pitfalls? Are they not as stressed
(15:36):
out by these things? Are they not as plagued by it?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Or is it the.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Same thing but they're more somehow fortified to deal with it?
Are the kids in your country somehow avoiding those pitfalls?
(16:05):
Are they not as stressed out by these things? Are
they not as plagued by it? Or is it the
same thing, but they're more somehow fortified to deal with it.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
I think they struggle with a lot of the things
that you guys mentioned as well. A lot of a
lot of these social media apps are made to have,
you know, teenagers addicted to them, so Dutch teenagers are
not immune to that. I think one of the things
that helps, and that's what you want to work on
(16:39):
from a young age, is being able to talk about
it right, being able to talk about it at home
and how do you solve these problems. A lot of
the time, it's not necessary that social media is bad.
It's about how you use it and how long you're
on it. And if it's replacing certain things or right
that you're not going out as much to meet people
face to face. But if you're able to have those
(17:02):
conversations at home, I think that makes it a lot easier.
And if you know you can talk about anything at
home from a young age, then you're more inclined I think,
to have those conversations later on when your teenager struggling.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
With these things.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You also engage them on subjects that here. Not everybody
talks their kids about sex and drugs and self identification
and transgender but you do, and you don't shy away
from that in the country, even with young kids, if
they have a question, you sit and you address or
it's a different different attitude.
Speaker 6 (17:31):
Yeah, and you know, of course I can't speak for
all such parents, generally, we do. We do have these conversations,
like conversations about I don't know, marriage. Yeah, it could
be a man and a woman, but it can also
be a man and a man, it can be a woman.
There's lots of different ways a family can look like, right,
(17:55):
And those are conversations that you have as a young age.
I mean, if you look at a book for our
children to talk about sex, and how your your body develops,
and these things about families and it's all in there. Right,
it's Dutch books like that, but they're written like that
for kids as young as yeah, four or five six, right,
(18:17):
this conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Just as a point of comparison.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I remember when my son gave was I'm going to
guess ten or eleven, and he finally said, okay, no kidding,
how do babies happen?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
How does this happen? And my wife and I were
so prepared.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
We had the graphs and the charts and the language,
and they explained and I think we answered him for
about thirty five minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Wow, you did.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
And then at.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
The present, right, it was about five thirty in the
afternoon when this happened, and my son's reaction was, I uh,
I got to take a nap.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
It was out for the night.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
We were so overwhelming. Broke him.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We broke him.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Also. In prepping for this, I saw it like in Finland,
which is considered the happy country, okay, that they have
and you may have too, the fact that that there's
brutal there's honestly like here, you ask somebody how you doing,
they go awesome, awesome, It's always great, and I always go,
I don't even know what that looks like. But there
if you say how are things going, you can say
(19:16):
having a bad day, having a tough time, and you're
encouraged to be more honest about that that not everything
is awesome, so you know your kid's expectation isn't just
those That's the answer. People don't want to hear about
your aggravation. Is that acting exactly?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah? Yeah, And we're very down to earth so.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Generally, so.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
Yeah, it isn't all all perfect and wonderful all the time.
And I think the Dutch are very good at showing
that and being direct, sometimes too direct for some people.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That yields me to like a perfect curve episode would
be I don't want to go there because when I
ask and you say not good, and you go, now
you're into it. You got to hear why, and it gets.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Exactly yeah, And do people spend.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You're on your way to the story, you say hi
to somebody because you think it's going to be a
two second conversation, they say bad day, and you go why,
And now, all of a sudden chance, your whole day
because you got to hear what they're doing and then
you got to jump into help. What happens with the
bad day? How do you respond to that? Are you
supposed to ask? Why is the next question?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
I don't know. I think it'd be nice to say oh,
or I'm sorry to hear that, or you know, some
kind of sympathy would be nice.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Keep you going. You can do sympathy on the move,
like oh, that sucks, and keep going.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
No, that sucks me too, I'm having.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
A that's the shield me too. You're having a bad mind, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Getting a data.
Speaker 6 (20:44):
But you also can connect over that, right, like like
with parents that sometimes I think it's like, oh, it's
all perfect and it's so wonderful all the time. No,
it sometimes it's really hard and sometimes it sucks. And
then you can if you're honest about that, you have
a connection, right, and then you can you can learn
from each other, you can share, you can.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Yeah, but you're help each other if I'm understanding it correctly.
That Dutch system also has it builds in the to
the sauce when a child is born, more time for
parents and children to be together. Like I've read somewhere,
I want to get it right. The Dutch parents receive
an average of sixteen point four paid weeks of leave
(21:27):
for each child.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
Yeah, so the mother has paid paid leave, so pregnancy
leave for yeah about four months, and you can choose
how you divide that, so you could take four weeks
like before the jew date, and then three months three
months afterwards. Fathers also have paid parental leave, and next
(21:52):
to the pregnancy leave. For women, you also have paid
parental leave and sometimes unpaid parntal leave. So I, for example,
took after I gave birth to both my children eight
months off after they were born.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
And as a country, the people in the country, this
is encouraged.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
It's not. It's not like somebody would look at you
and go, oh oh.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It shirking.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
It's actually it's an accepted and positive part of the
culture there.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Yeah, and I mean I think what you can do
is also work less hours, right and still get paid
the same amount until your child is a certain age,
So you could if you work four days, you could
work three days for I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
It's supplemented in other words, while you're doing that.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Well, that's yeah, that's a really I know, but it's
hard to work three and be paid for four, I know.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Really, how do I work for one and get paid
for eight. How do I do that?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Here? You have women texting as they're giving it's push
hold on. I guess I got to ask you about punishment.
So how do you punish in that country? Is it
time out? When a kid does something rare or something wrong? Yeah?
Your children, and you've got to punish your child. What's
what's punishment looked like?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Generally? I would I would say punishment doesn't work as
well as rewards.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Punishment doesn't work as well as reward. No, wow, So.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
What what you want to focus on more is rewarding
the child for the good behavior instead of punishing them
for the bad behavior.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So are there things like timeouts or or.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
People use time?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
But no hitting it right now? Smacking? Nobody gets smacked.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
Right, listen, I'm sure it happened, right, But it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It's frowned upon. It's not a thing.
Speaker 6 (23:46):
It's not it's not frowned upon. It's illegal.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
It's illegal. Well that's more than yes, yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I feel like the the the young people in my
life generally seem to have less resilience in some ways,
and perhaps because my generation of parents have jumped in
(24:14):
a little too often have wanted to protect them from
the perceived dangers or the real dangers. I think that's
where a lot of young people being triggered by things
that you go, well, yes we're talking about something that's terrible,
but you don't have to take it on to yourself
and bear that experience that isn't even yours kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Are you experience in your part of the world. Are
you experiencing any of that?
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I guess I'm fascinated about how young people are being
made to be resilient against, like I said, social media
and this perception that things are bad, things are dangerous, And.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Oh sure, I think here as well, we struggle with,
you know, worries about climate, worries about the future. But
it's all about how you've learned to in general deal
with worry and badness and being able to talk about
(25:12):
it rely on your social network. That's really really important, right.
So I don't think it's that they don't have it.
I think maybe they can cope with it maybe a
little bit better.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And is that just because of the system in which
they've been raised. Is it because of those cultural things
you were describing of letting them problem solve a little
bit longer, letting them experience their own emotions.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Just I think it's a big combination of things. I mean,
you have to also realize, I mean, we are quite
a there's a lot of problems in the netherolence, but
we're also a very rich country with a lot to
offer the people that live here, right, So I think
it also has to do with our standard of living, right,
(26:00):
that helps as well. So I think it's a huge
combination of things. And here as well, we do see
our young people struggling with depression as well. That you know,
we still have a lot of young people who are
dying because of suicide. So it's not all great, right,
but there are things that are going better compared to
(26:23):
other people.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
You can, I let you go.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
I just this is something I've always wanted to ask
somebody who does what you do for a living. Okay,
do you feel any added burden to have the best
kids because of what you do?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Does everybody look at you and go, oh, she's the
child psychology expert.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
If her kids aren't perfect, then you know, is there
a pressure on you?
Speaker 6 (26:43):
I've heard I've actually had someone say that to me
that I'm like well, I'm not perfect, right, And the
worst thing is is like I know, in the moment
when I'm doing something that is not helpful or not good,
I'm very aware aware, right, So I get angry at
my kids, you know, I I snap at them sometimes,
(27:03):
and I'm so aware of that. I'm like, oh, this
is not good. But yeah, I'm also a human.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Being and you're more.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Can you be forgiving of yourself because you do know that?
That's you know, It's like when I do a bad performance,
I go okay, but I also know how to do
a good performance, so I'll do a better one tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Is it that kind of thing I.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
Do try to I try to be mindful of that,
right that you know, I'm a human being. I have
my good days and I have moments that are also
not so good. But then to give myself another try again.
And then I'm teaching my children that as well. Right,
I'm teaching my children I don't need to be perfect.
It's about how I then solve it with them and
I apologize to them or I explain to them and
(27:46):
they learn from that again. So using that moment that
didn't go so well for them to grow again, She.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Said, so goes you don't Mamma does for a living
your message you get to I give you a little
independence at age four, and you know you got a tattoo.
How does that reflect? How does that reflect? How does
that reflect on me? And also the pressure of the
entire country is going we can't drop to number three?
Come on you lie an interview? Lie smile? Okay, well,
(28:16):
thank you for the time. Thanks so much for coming on.
And I hope your kids never one stays number one.
What's the happiest kid? So that was that was kind
of fascinating in the sense that it really pointed out
(28:36):
my short comings everything she said to do.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Then that's the subtitle of our show, Our Shortcomings, Things
we don't know and did wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
So when we asked the question, we saw that they
are the happiest kids in the world. I guess we
have to follow up with are they Are they the
happiest kids in the world. So I don't know if
they're pushing it a little bit. I don't know if
they have a publicist who.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Went around and interviewed every kid in every country and
then took the median answers and went, oh, clearly they.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Do it with a series of his crime. They do
a lot of different different points, they rate them then
and then pick the country.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
That's the question. This is and this is a this is.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
An instential question.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What are you happy?
Speaker 4 (29:20):
If you if you, if you really had to answer
that question you stopped on the street today.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Given where you are in your life. I know the
world around.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Us is a little crazy, but have you lived that
happy life?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Really? And are you happy? So my answer to that
is I am grateful. But from a family they grew
up in the dark, in the shadow, you know that
we're always scared stuffs gonna happen because stuff did happen.
Content for me is happiness, like I'm content. Ah, does
that make sense?
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Yeah, here's here's my answer to that. I and I
only realized this in therapy. So the seminal Broadway show
that changed my life, that made me want to be
an actor and is one of my favorite pieces of
theater of all time is the show Pippin, And if
you've never seen it, it's a lighthearted piece about Pippin,
the son of Charlemagne, but it's not a historical piece.
(30:12):
Who is born into extraordinary circumstances and expects of himself
that he should be extraordinary and he doesn't know what
he should be extraordinary in. So this character played by
Ben Vereen, this player comes and says, well, I'm going
to show you the world of politics.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I'm going to show you the world of warfare. I'm
going to show you the world of romance. I'm going
to show you the war and you're going to find
your thing and be extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
And along the way, everything keeps disappointing him. Nothing is
what he thought it would be, and in his depression,
he winds up on a farm and he falls in
love with the woman that run the widow that runs
the farm and her son, and he's really content and
he goes, wait a minute, this isn't no good.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
This is not extraordinary. I need to be extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And he goes back to the player played by Ben
Veren and goes, show me what's extraordinary, and the player goes, well,
here's what would be great is our grand finale. We
do this whole setup and you set yourself on fire
and you go up like a bolt, like the sun itself.
It would be the most spectacular thing. And he goes, yeah,
but if it's wrong, I'm gonna have a lot of
trouble trying something else, and he compromises, and he settles
(31:16):
for the widow and the child. And I used to think,
I want to be Ben Vereen. I want to be
that magical, charismatic, powerful bright light. Everything's exciting, everything's hot.
And I realized that there is no contentment there. That
if you chase happiness that is so far above the
(31:36):
median line, all you can do is fall. When that
thing that has risen you to the top of the
roller coaster is nowhere to go, HiT's there. You're going
to drop so far below the median line that it's
going to be rushing. And with maturity, what I learned,
and you can't tell this to somebody I think younger
than forty years old, happiness burns very very low. It's
(32:01):
a contentment. It's just it is not the highest ties.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It is this.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Continuous sweetness in your life where you can stop and
go I am blessed, so I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I'm happy because the contentment. It makes me happy. Honestly,
that I gave you a gift this year for Christmas,
Yes that was meaningful thing. And you gave me a belt,
but it's the best belt wraps around you like an anaconda.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And I also gave one. Tell mister David, by.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The way, I should give David bore run because this
was one of the funniest things David ever said. So
Jason gives me a belt. Tell them what I gave.
I gave you a Pippin. You gave me an original
Hirshfield pip because I know. So I get the belt
and I go, okay, hurtfelt Pippin the belt. So, and
by the way, thanks for ruining Pippin. I was gonna
go see it. The belt is self closing, you know,
(32:52):
it hooks, it has no holes.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
It works on this ratchet thing which allows you to
adjust it in very small increment.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
But we can't get out throughout an normal person's day.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But if you don't know how to open the belt,
it's a little true.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So David google Heeint calls me right after we got
the belt and we had talked to the woman who's
the python hunter in the every woman that found the python,
and David calls me, I don't know and goes, I
need Pete Peter, I need the phone number of the
python lady. I go, what do you need? The phone
number of the Python lady for you says, I can't
get Jason's belt. Ik. A picture is her wrestling his
(33:29):
pace to the floor trying to get the which was
to David, David as good as it gets.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
So google huns and belt company, ladies and gentlemen they
of modern.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, never failure, and you may not be a great gift.
So David, what's the Google him for today? What didn't
we do? What did we cover? What should we know?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, I'm wearing the belt right now, so am i,
David Man, I'm gonna get right here.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
By the way, this is one of those times with
the audio version much better.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
Yeah, let's do some flash chants are all right? Wow,
they could transplant though.
Speaker 9 (34:17):
Because my whole body it falls out. It's not just
my end, all right.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
So David, well, you know, there was some confusion as
to is it called Netherlands, the Netherlands, Holland or.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Whatever it is?
Speaker 10 (34:31):
And why the hell do you call the people from
their Dutch right.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's the Netherlands in the Holland things. She didn't call
it Holland. You go aha, And then again Dutch, what
is this?
Speaker 3 (34:41):
What's going on?
Speaker 6 (34:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, well it comes from because it was a
region that was then controlled by the Holy Roman.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Empire for a while before it.
Speaker 10 (34:52):
Was then congealed into a country. Many of the English
speaking traders would come to the coast, and part of
the Netherlands.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Is called Holland.
Speaker 10 (35:04):
Holland is more of a regional area now. For many
years even the government used the Netherlands in Holland interchangeably.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But at some point in.
Speaker 10 (35:14):
The not so recent past for marketing reasons and they
wanted to stay globally competitive, and there was confusion, they
decided to go with the Netherlands, which physically.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Means a low lying country. So there you go.
Speaker 10 (35:29):
Now Dutch, Why are they the Dutch people? This again
goes back to old English and blah blah blah. But
needless to say, the people from both both the now
Netherlands and Germany were called dutchy you may know that
of course Dutsch Deutschland is the way to say Germany
and German. So basically the whole region there were referred.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
To as Dutch.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
You know, I learned so much and I still understand nothing.
I still don't know why villains as Dutch people in home?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
You know what they may be the happiest people, but
they're not the best at naming the country. They could
be like really low, really low down, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, I'm happy because I'm wearing the belt the belt, and.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I'm happy because it's going to take you forty minutes.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Happy everybody your check.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now, Really, that's another episode of Really No Really. It
comes to a clothes Let's play a game.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I'll name eight.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Prominent countries and you guess where they rank in the
twenty twenty three survey or Happiest Countries in the World.
The answers will amaze you. But first let's thank our guests.
Very Unique vander Clay. You can follow her at her
website calmmind Psychology dot nl and on LinkedIn, where she
is at very Unique vander Clay. Find all pertinent links
in our show notes, our little show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube,
(36:53):
and threads at Really No Really Podcasts, And of course,
you can share your thoughts and feedback with us online
at really No. If you have a really some amazing
factor story that boggles your mind, share it with us
and if we use it, we will send you a
little gift nothing life changing, obviously, but it's the thought
that counts. Check out our full episodes on YouTube, hit
(37:15):
that subscribe button and take that bell so you're updated
when we release new videos and episodes.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Which we do each Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's
play our game. I'll name eight countries alphabetically. You try
and guess where they ball in the ranking of happiest
countries in the world. This is from a total ranking
of one hundred and forty three countries, so one through
one forty three. This is not child happiness, this is
(37:42):
all around happiness. And as a bonus, I'll tell you
where the United States falls at the end. Here are
your eight countries, alphabetically, Colombia, Egypt, England, Iraq, Japan, Mexico, Pakistan,
and Poland. Once again, they are Columbia, Egypt, England, Iraqi, Japan, Mexico, Pakistan,
and Poland. I'll give you a few moments. Okay, here's
(38:05):
your answers. Columbia is seventy eight, Egypt is one twenty seven,
England is twenty, Iraq is ninety two, Japan is fifty one,
Mexico is twenty five, Pakistan is one O eight, and
Poland is thirty five.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And where are my fellow Americans.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Do you think the USA falls?
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Well?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
In twenty twenty three, it fell out of the top
twenty for the first time. We currently said at number
twenty three. And with that, I'm moving to Finland. Toydella oikoshti.
That's finished for really no really, or it would be
if I had said it remotely correctly, which I am
sure I did not. Really No Razy, really, no really
(38:48):
is the production of iHeartRadio and Plase Entertainment
Now really.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Really now really hello, and welcome to really know really
with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who remind you that
children of people who subscribe to our show are the
happiest children in the world. The caveat to that is
that your subscription and your children must be in the Netherlands,
because the recent study suggests that children in the Netherlands
are in fact the happiest kids in the world. And
(00:27):
when we heard that here in the Home Office, our
reaction was naturally really no, really, So Jason and Peter
became determined to find out how a country was able
to lay claim to having the happiest children in the world, and,
more importantly, if true, what could be learned from their
child rearing techniques. They also wanted to figure out the
correct name for the country, since people refer to it
as Netherlands or the Netherlands or Holland. It's all very confusing,
(00:51):
so for answers they turned to an actual Netherlander or
whatever they're called, very unique vonder Klay. She's a child
and school psychologist who has also worked at the Intern
National School of the Hague with children, adolescents and their
families and now here are two guys whose children really
wish they had done this episode years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Jason and Peter.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I know today is a very uh it's kind of
a wonderful topic, but it depresses me going in because
by its very nature it's comparative, and I'm on the
wrong side of the comparison. Other people are happy and
add E r happy er than I am, and by
the way in the world around.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But the thing that she make you happy is you
have a best friend and partner. Most of the time,
barometer wized is even less avocate.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hence that's why it makes you feel.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You feel so much better and me continuously crappy. So
this show, I say, what.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Makes the best friend a best friend?
Speaker 4 (01:44):
You feel better an the when they do because they
are worse comparison.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You call me and you go, how's your day? And
I go, oh, man, it's not good. You go, wow,
I'm having a pretty good day. I'm tackling. I'm tackling.
So the topic is the Netherlands are home to the
happiest kids in the.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
World that there's already in and of its.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I got so annoyed, Why well the Netherlands, even the
name and even the notes nothing the nether regions, right,
don't go down there, that's your nether part.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So already. Usually when we see a topic that makes
it go really, it makes it go really no really,
this one had an adute went really no, really, they're
the happiest kids in the world. So and the Netherlands,
I guarantee. Now, if you're listening, if I walked in
the street, did a man on the street right now
insteads where's the Netherland? People wouldn't know it's a country, right,
they wouldn't know if it's the Netherlands or Netherlands? Right?
(02:39):
Is it Holland? Is it? Why are you not calling
it the Holland? And are the people the Holland deers?
And by the way, there's a whole the whole place
you live is a fesso.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
How can you be happy?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Every other country? This that in the room said, what
do you think? How Schmelsburg not good billy Germany. Let's
go with that. Yeah, here they went the Netherlands. Sounds
like we're going over the hill to an area of nondescript.
It's kind of like, yeah, yeah, where's it begin? Where's it?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Sounds like something in Hoppita and the Hague is there,
the Hague I made myself left day.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm happy every because of the Netherlands.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So we're gonna talk about that. So before we talk
about that, though, in this country, we have our our
traditions and the way we raise our kids in culture.
So I thought we'd give a comparative of some of
the other cultures in the world. So when we have
this guest on, we know how it's a child psychologist.
Great and she talks about what's going on in the
Netherlands slash Hollands slash.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
So there's a copyright infringement right there.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
All right, so let's find out. Let's talk to a
culture that allegedly has the happiest. So joining us now
is Veronic Voni.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You're gonna mess up the last that I know, but
at least get.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
The very neat there you go, very neat now Clay, right,
Vander Clay, Clay, I do this.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I got obviously someone else should be doing this. It
was a beautiful did your study it's a it's a
beautiful name, and thank you for coming on. You are
a child psychologist in the Netherlands. And we saw the
headline that the Netherlands is home to the world's happiest children,
and we had to find out a why b if
(04:28):
that's accurate how they judged that. But before we even
get into that, is it the Netherlands, Netherlands, Holland, the
kingdom of what is your country?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Sometimes there's the sometimes there's not.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
The It is the Netherlands, all right?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
And do you know offhand why it is the Netherlands?
Is that was there a guy named nether was there?
Was it a region that people it was below other things,
you know, and the history of how it.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Now prepared for this that's okay, I.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Have it for the end. I have it for the end.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Okay, okay, all right, you want to ask questions. So
let's talk about children, educated and highly respected person.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So what's different in the way kids are raised there
culturally than anywhere else.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
In the Netherlands.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
In the Netherlands, Yeah, it would make them happen. Now
you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I knew it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I knew it. You guys wanted us up. You know
that the lies it is really Holland. But somehow all right. Nevertheless, so, yes,
kids in the Netherlands, what's going on there that allegedly
makes them the happiest.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
Yeah, well, I do have to say obviously we're not
perfect either, but I think there are quite a few
things that we do that are having a positive effect
on our children's well being. I think one of the
things that we're very very good at is allowing our
children to learn independence at a very young age. We
(06:03):
tend and I'm not saying that everyone does that, but
we tend to let our children play quite independently by themselves,
like at the playground, without hovering too much, without you know,
catching them as soon as they might fall. Also with
for example, we cycle quite a bit here in the
(06:24):
Netherlands from a very very young age, and so children
learn this independence cycling by themselves. Also to school very
very young, usually when they're about like nine or ten.
We do already allow them to go independently to school
on their bicycles, but that's something that they learn quite young,
(06:45):
and I think that we try as Dutch parents to
give them a lot of freedom, and I think that
is part of one of the reasons why I think
they are quite happy in that sense.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
So anecdotally, what that reminds me of very nick is
when I was a kid in my neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Same thing.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I was on my bike my you know, I would
have breakfast on a Saturday, and then I'd go on
my bike and I'd be with my friends, no parental supervision,
and we'd come back for dinner. And that was the
norm if my child. When I became a parent a
mere thirty something years later, that was the scariest thing
we could imagine.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
What wait, let me ask you something there, because the
same thing with me, although my parents didn't care as much,
so there was not that much. But in our neighborhood,
in our neighborhood's growing up at that point, it was
my neighbors knew they would. There are a lot of
eyes on kids, so it was very different.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
And is that true there as well?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That it's sort of the village is aware that the
children are out and so as a community, you know,
they're watching other kids and the adults are sort of
keeping a distant but but focused eye on these kids.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I think it's so like a safety thing. I think
that's what you guys are talking about, right. It is,
I mean relatively safe here in the Netherlands, and our
roads are built so for if we're talking about the
cycling that we can safely cycle almost everywhere. It's easier
almost to take it. No, it is easier to take
your bicycle everywhere and not take your car. So it's
(08:23):
relatively safe here. But you know, we're also quite a
small country, so that feeling of you know, community and
not that we know everyone, but it is, you know,
taking care of each other. Even if you don't know
that child that's crossing the street with the bike, you do,
you know, take care of each other.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
In that sense.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
How much is that truly a part of the formula
for the fact that you have these happy kids? Is
it the fact that it really is small communities in
a small country. And I would also imagine, and I
don't mean this in any pejorative way, sort of homogeneous communities,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's the culture dates back.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So yeah, there's there's a My impression of having never
been there, is that there's sort of a singular culture.
There isn't a sort of melting pot culture that we
have here in the US.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Is that true?
Speaker 6 (09:15):
No, we do have quite a few different cultures here
as well. Yeah, we definitely do. We have lots of
different communities, the Turkish, the Moroccan communities. We have a
lot of people who've come from Africa as well who've
settled here right here or so it's it's not just Dutch.
(09:37):
We also have, especially like in the Hague. I live
close to the Hague, a lot of international families that
come and live here because of a lot of the
international organizations that we have here. So it's definitely not
just Dutch. But it depends on where you go in
the Netherlands. So where I live, it's very very international,
(09:58):
and we do have a lot of people who have
immigrated here, but there's also areas in the Netherlands that
it's very.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Very touch Yeah, okay, question the bike, the Viking, the
letting kids be independent of a certain age and looking
out for other people's kids. Does it translate across all
all the cultures there kind of feel the same way
about it. When they're exposed to that, they all embrace it.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Yeah, And I think I think other cultures have to
get used to it, because I mean I recently went
on holiday with my family and we were out at
the playground and you could see a couple. It was
a Dutch father and an American mother, and the Dutch
father was like, well, just let let let our daughter
go play, and the mom was like, He's like, oh,
(10:48):
let it go. She's fun. So you know, those cultures,
they also have to get used to it, right, but
they do. I think they do embrace it and they
see they see the benefit too. I noticed it with
some of the clients that I've had that I've had
as well into national clients in my practice. The parents say, yeah,
we've learnt a lot from the Dutch letting our children
go a bit more.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I'm curious. I remembered an incident with Robert when he
was six seven years old. He's playing soccer, and soccer
at that age is really about fifteen kids in a scrum.
They all get together, everybody's kicking everybody, dust is going up,
and then they separate. They're not really playing soccer fertida
the United States. It's not good. But I remember Robert
got pushed down and I, of course my wife and
(11:31):
rush out because my poor boy is on the ground crying.
And the mother of the other kid rushed out and
instead of saying to the kid, why did you push them?
She said, how did that make you feel? And I
knew something had changed. When the bully was being asked,
how does that make you feel where you are? Did
the parents interact and solve the kid's problems at that
age or do they let the kids figure out how
(11:52):
to get through the day without us hovering and without
us solving all your problems?
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Yeah, I think it. Yeah, I think it depends on
the age. But we do try to encourage them to
solve things by themselves. Also, like if you see like
little kids like sometimes falling at the playground, it's not
like the parents right away rush to help them. And
I'm not saying all parents, right, but other kids help
them as well, right, And it's not that the parents
(12:17):
aren't aware. We're aware, we're looking, but we're teaching them
maybe differently, right, teaching them to get up by themselves
or get their peers to help them. You learn a
lot from your peers as well. I mean, you learn
a lot from your parents, obviously, But yeah, so I think.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
It's that reflects something Peter and I were talking about
before you joined us about my kids. My wife and
I tried a program when we were raising our kids
when they were little that was developed by a woman
named Mogged Gerber, and it was called Research education infants,
And it was also very much the sort of engage
(12:56):
the child in their own life, even at the very
early of a month, six weeks, eight weeks. But when
a child would get when a baby would get frustrated
in a group of you know, there'd be like an
open mat and the babies are wandering around and they
get frustrated with something. The philosophy there was don't run
in and save it so fast. First of all, they
(13:20):
may figure it out. And second of all, it's okay
to be frustrated. That's one of those things that you
can be frustrated and get through it. And I was
saying to Peter it worked very well for one of
my kids and not very well for my other son.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And so, you know, I think it must be.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Hard as a parent because you work with children, but
I'm sure you work with families too, so it must
be hard for parents who have the inclination to jump
in to hold back. Is there for you if you
were just giving general advice to a parent who is
struggling with you know when to jump in and when not.
(13:56):
There is there sort of a tipping point where you go, yeah,
that means go in. But prior to that. Let's see
if you is there a way to look at those situations.
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Well, I mean, every child is unique, and I think
that's what you're describing as well. You don't have a
program that fits every child. You have to look at
what fits best for your child. And that's what I
work with When I work with parents, we always look
at well what fits your child, and as a parent,
you know very very well what your child needs. Right,
(14:28):
So if you feel that this is too much for
them or they really need help here, then you also
have to trust your instinct. And what I'm talking about
are general things. Right. Generally, it's good to let them
figure things out. But if you've tried that and you notice, okay,
this doesn't work so well with my child, then you
know you have to find a different way that works
(14:49):
better to teach them the same things. Right.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I want to jump for a second too again this
notion of the Netherlands producing happier kids, and I want
to jump a little bit to some of the influences
on the older kids. So I have to assume that
those kids are as engaged with social media as any
(15:14):
other as teenagers and kids in our country, and what
we're hearing more and more is that social media is
having a tremendous negative impact, building all kinds of stresses
and all kinds of problems. Are the kids in your
country somehow avoiding those pitfalls? Are they not as stressed
(15:36):
out by these things? Are they not as plagued by it?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Or is it the.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Same thing but they're more somehow fortified to deal with it?
Are the kids in your country somehow avoiding those pitfalls?
(16:05):
Are they not as stressed out by these things? Are
they not as plagued by it? Or is it the
same thing, but they're more somehow fortified to deal with it.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
I think they struggle with a lot of the things
that you guys mentioned as well. A lot of a
lot of these social media apps are made to have,
you know, teenagers addicted to them, so Dutch teenagers are
not immune to that. I think one of the things
that helps, and that's what you want to work on
(16:39):
from a young age, is being able to talk about
it right, being able to talk about it at home
and how do you solve these problems. A lot of
the time, it's not necessary that social media is bad.
It's about how you use it and how long you're
on it. And if it's replacing certain things or right
that you're not going out as much to meet people
face to face. But if you're able to have those
(17:02):
conversations at home, I think that makes it a lot easier.
And if you know you can talk about anything at
home from a young age, then you're more inclined I think,
to have those conversations later on when your teenager struggling.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
With these things.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You also engage them on subjects that here. Not everybody
talks their kids about sex and drugs and self identification
and transgender but you do, and you don't shy away
from that in the country, even with young kids, if
they have a question, you sit and you address or
it's a different different attitude.
Speaker 6 (17:31):
Yeah, and you know, of course I can't speak for
all such parents, generally, we do. We do have these conversations,
like conversations about I don't know, marriage. Yeah, it could
be a man and a woman, but it can also
be a man and a man, it can be a woman.
There's lots of different ways a family can look like, right,
(17:55):
And those are conversations that you have as a young age.
I mean, if you look at a book for our
children to talk about sex, and how your your body develops,
and these things about families and it's all in there. Right,
it's Dutch books like that, but they're written like that
for kids as young as yeah, four or five six, right,
(18:17):
this conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Just as a point of comparison.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I remember when my son gave was I'm going to
guess ten or eleven, and he finally said, okay, no kidding,
how do babies happen?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
How does this happen? And my wife and I were
so prepared.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
We had the graphs and the charts and the language,
and they explained and I think we answered him for
about thirty five minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Wow, you did.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
And then at.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
The present, right, it was about five thirty in the
afternoon when this happened, and my son's reaction was, I uh,
I got to take a nap.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
It was out for the night.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
We were so overwhelming. Broke him.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We broke him.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Also. In prepping for this, I saw it like in Finland,
which is considered the happy country, okay, that they have
and you may have too, the fact that that there's
brutal there's honestly like here, you ask somebody how you doing,
they go awesome, awesome, It's always great, and I always go,
I don't even know what that looks like. But there
if you say how are things going, you can say
(19:16):
having a bad day, having a tough time, and you're
encouraged to be more honest about that that not everything
is awesome, so you know your kid's expectation isn't just
those That's the answer. People don't want to hear about
your aggravation. Is that acting exactly?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah? Yeah, And we're very down to earth so.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Generally, so.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
Yeah, it isn't all all perfect and wonderful all the time.
And I think the Dutch are very good at showing
that and being direct, sometimes too direct for some people.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That yields me to like a perfect curve episode would
be I don't want to go there because when I
ask and you say not good, and you go, now
you're into it. You got to hear why, and it gets.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Exactly yeah, And do people spend.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You're on your way to the story, you say hi
to somebody because you think it's going to be a
two second conversation, they say bad day, and you go why,
And now, all of a sudden chance, your whole day
because you got to hear what they're doing and then
you got to jump into help. What happens with the
bad day? How do you respond to that? Are you
supposed to ask? Why is the next question?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
I don't know. I think it'd be nice to say oh,
or I'm sorry to hear that, or you know, some
kind of sympathy would be nice.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Keep you going. You can do sympathy on the move,
like oh, that sucks, and keep going.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
No, that sucks me too, I'm having.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
A that's the shield me too. You're having a bad mind, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Getting a data.
Speaker 6 (20:44):
But you also can connect over that, right, like like
with parents that sometimes I think it's like, oh, it's
all perfect and it's so wonderful all the time. No,
it sometimes it's really hard and sometimes it sucks. And
then you can if you're honest about that, you have
a connection, right, and then you can you can learn
from each other, you can share, you can.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Yeah, but you're help each other if I'm understanding it correctly.
That Dutch system also has it builds in the to
the sauce when a child is born, more time for
parents and children to be together. Like I've read somewhere,
I want to get it right. The Dutch parents receive
an average of sixteen point four paid weeks of leave
(21:27):
for each child.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
Yeah, so the mother has paid paid leave, so pregnancy
leave for yeah about four months, and you can choose
how you divide that, so you could take four weeks
like before the jew date, and then three months three
months afterwards. Fathers also have paid parental leave, and next
(21:52):
to the pregnancy leave. For women, you also have paid
parental leave and sometimes unpaid parntal leave. So I, for example,
took after I gave birth to both my children eight
months off after they were born.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
And as a country, the people in the country, this
is encouraged.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
It's not. It's not like somebody would look at you
and go, oh oh.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It shirking.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
It's actually it's an accepted and positive part of the
culture there.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Yeah, and I mean I think what you can do
is also work less hours, right and still get paid
the same amount until your child is a certain age,
So you could if you work four days, you could
work three days for I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
It's supplemented in other words, while you're doing that.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Well, that's yeah, that's a really I know, but it's
hard to work three and be paid for four, I know.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Really, how do I work for one and get paid
for eight. How do I do that?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Here? You have women texting as they're giving it's push
hold on. I guess I got to ask you about punishment.
So how do you punish in that country? Is it
time out? When a kid does something rare or something wrong? Yeah?
Your children, and you've got to punish your child. What's
what's punishment looked like?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Generally? I would I would say punishment doesn't work as
well as rewards.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Punishment doesn't work as well as reward. No, wow, So.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
What what you want to focus on more is rewarding
the child for the good behavior instead of punishing them
for the bad behavior.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So are there things like timeouts or or.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
People use time?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
But no hitting it right now? Smacking? Nobody gets smacked.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
Right, listen, I'm sure it happened, right, But it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It's frowned upon. It's not a thing.
Speaker 6 (23:46):
It's not it's not frowned upon. It's illegal.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
It's illegal. Well that's more than yes, yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I feel like the the the young people in my
life generally seem to have less resilience in some ways,
and perhaps because my generation of parents have jumped in
(24:14):
a little too often have wanted to protect them from
the perceived dangers or the real dangers. I think that's
where a lot of young people being triggered by things
that you go, well, yes we're talking about something that's terrible,
but you don't have to take it on to yourself
and bear that experience that isn't even yours kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Are you experience in your part of the world. Are
you experiencing any of that?
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I guess I'm fascinated about how young people are being
made to be resilient against, like I said, social media
and this perception that things are bad, things are dangerous, And.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Oh sure, I think here as well, we struggle with,
you know, worries about climate, worries about the future. But
it's all about how you've learned to in general deal
with worry and badness and being able to talk about
(25:12):
it rely on your social network. That's really really important, right.
So I don't think it's that they don't have it.
I think maybe they can cope with it maybe a
little bit better.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And is that just because of the system in which
they've been raised. Is it because of those cultural things
you were describing of letting them problem solve a little
bit longer, letting them experience their own emotions.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Just I think it's a big combination of things. I mean,
you have to also realize, I mean, we are quite
a there's a lot of problems in the netherolence, but
we're also a very rich country with a lot to
offer the people that live here, right, So I think
it also has to do with our standard of living, right,
(26:00):
that helps as well. So I think it's a huge
combination of things. And here as well, we do see
our young people struggling with depression as well. That you know,
we still have a lot of young people who are
dying because of suicide. So it's not all great, right,
but there are things that are going better compared to
(26:23):
other people.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
You can, I let you go.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
I just this is something I've always wanted to ask
somebody who does what you do for a living. Okay,
do you feel any added burden to have the best
kids because of what you do?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Does everybody look at you and go, oh, she's the
child psychology expert.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
If her kids aren't perfect, then you know, is there
a pressure on you?
Speaker 6 (26:43):
I've heard I've actually had someone say that to me
that I'm like well, I'm not perfect, right, And the
worst thing is is like I know, in the moment
when I'm doing something that is not helpful or not good,
I'm very aware aware, right, So I get angry at
my kids, you know, I I snap at them sometimes,
(27:03):
and I'm so aware of that. I'm like, oh, this
is not good. But yeah, I'm also a human.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Being and you're more.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Can you be forgiving of yourself because you do know that?
That's you know, It's like when I do a bad performance,
I go okay, but I also know how to do
a good performance, so I'll do a better one tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Is it that kind of thing I.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
Do try to I try to be mindful of that,
right that you know, I'm a human being. I have
my good days and I have moments that are also
not so good. But then to give myself another try again.
And then I'm teaching my children that as well. Right,
I'm teaching my children I don't need to be perfect.
It's about how I then solve it with them and
I apologize to them or I explain to them and
(27:46):
they learn from that again. So using that moment that
didn't go so well for them to grow again, She.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Said, so goes you don't Mamma does for a living
your message you get to I give you a little
independence at age four, and you know you got a tattoo.
How does that reflect? How does that reflect? How does
that reflect on me? And also the pressure of the
entire country is going we can't drop to number three?
Come on you lie an interview? Lie smile? Okay, well,
(28:16):
thank you for the time. Thanks so much for coming on.
And I hope your kids never one stays number one.
What's the happiest kid? So that was that was kind
of fascinating in the sense that it really pointed out
(28:36):
my short comings everything she said to do.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Then that's the subtitle of our show, Our Shortcomings, Things
we don't know and did wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
So when we asked the question, we saw that they
are the happiest kids in the world. I guess we
have to follow up with are they Are they the
happiest kids in the world. So I don't know if
they're pushing it a little bit. I don't know if
they have a publicist who.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Went around and interviewed every kid in every country and
then took the median answers and went, oh, clearly they.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Do it with a series of his crime. They do
a lot of different different points, they rate them then
and then pick the country.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
That's the question. This is and this is a this is.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
An instential question.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What are you happy?
Speaker 4 (29:20):
If you if you, if you really had to answer
that question you stopped on the street today.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Given where you are in your life. I know the
world around.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Us is a little crazy, but have you lived that
happy life?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Really? And are you happy? So my answer to that
is I am grateful. But from a family they grew
up in the dark, in the shadow, you know that
we're always scared stuffs gonna happen because stuff did happen.
Content for me is happiness, like I'm content. Ah, does
that make sense?
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Yeah, here's here's my answer to that. I and I
only realized this in therapy. So the seminal Broadway show
that changed my life, that made me want to be
an actor and is one of my favorite pieces of
theater of all time is the show Pippin, And if
you've never seen it, it's a lighthearted piece about Pippin,
the son of Charlemagne, but it's not a historical piece.
(30:12):
Who is born into extraordinary circumstances and expects of himself
that he should be extraordinary and he doesn't know what
he should be extraordinary in. So this character played by
Ben Vereen, this player comes and says, well, I'm going
to show you the world of politics.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I'm going to show you the world of warfare. I'm
going to show you the world of romance. I'm going
to show you the war and you're going to find
your thing and be extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
And along the way, everything keeps disappointing him. Nothing is
what he thought it would be, and in his depression,
he winds up on a farm and he falls in
love with the woman that run the widow that runs
the farm and her son, and he's really content and
he goes, wait a minute, this isn't no good.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
This is not extraordinary. I need to be extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
And he goes back to the player played by Ben
Veren and goes, show me what's extraordinary, and the player goes, well,
here's what would be great is our grand finale. We
do this whole setup and you set yourself on fire
and you go up like a bolt, like the sun itself.
It would be the most spectacular thing. And he goes, yeah,
but if it's wrong, I'm gonna have a lot of
trouble trying something else, and he compromises, and he settles
(31:16):
for the widow and the child. And I used to think,
I want to be Ben Vereen. I want to be
that magical, charismatic, powerful bright light. Everything's exciting, everything's hot.
And I realized that there is no contentment there. That
if you chase happiness that is so far above the
(31:36):
median line, all you can do is fall. When that
thing that has risen you to the top of the
roller coaster is nowhere to go, HiT's there. You're going
to drop so far below the median line that it's
going to be rushing. And with maturity, what I learned,
and you can't tell this to somebody I think younger
than forty years old, happiness burns very very low. It's
(32:01):
a contentment. It's just it is not the highest ties.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It is this.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Continuous sweetness in your life where you can stop and
go I am blessed, so I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I'm happy because the contentment. It makes me happy. Honestly,
that I gave you a gift this year for Christmas,
Yes that was meaningful thing. And you gave me a belt,
but it's the best belt wraps around you like an anaconda.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And I also gave one. Tell mister David, by.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The way, I should give David bore run because this
was one of the funniest things David ever said. So
Jason gives me a belt. Tell them what I gave.
I gave you a Pippin. You gave me an original
Hirshfield pip because I know. So I get the belt
and I go, okay, hurtfelt Pippin the belt. So, and
by the way, thanks for ruining Pippin. I was gonna
go see it. The belt is self closing, you know,
(32:52):
it hooks, it has no holes.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
It works on this ratchet thing which allows you to
adjust it in very small increment.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
But we can't get out throughout an normal person's day.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But if you don't know how to open the belt,
it's a little true.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So David google Heeint calls me right after we got
the belt and we had talked to the woman who's
the python hunter in the every woman that found the python,
and David calls me, I don't know and goes, I
need Pete Peter, I need the phone number of the
python lady. I go, what do you need? The phone
number of the Python lady for you says, I can't
get Jason's belt. Ik. A picture is her wrestling his
(33:29):
pace to the floor trying to get the which was
to David, David as good as it gets.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
So google huns and belt company, ladies and gentlemen they
of modern.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, never failure, and you may not be a great gift.
So David, what's the Google him for today? What didn't
we do? What did we cover? What should we know?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, I'm wearing the belt right now, so am i,
David Man, I'm gonna get right here.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
By the way, this is one of those times with
the audio version much better.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
Yeah, let's do some flash chants are all right? Wow,
they could transplant though.
Speaker 9 (34:17):
Because my whole body it falls out. It's not just
my end, all right.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
So David, well, you know, there was some confusion as
to is it called Netherlands, the Netherlands, Holland or.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Whatever it is?
Speaker 10 (34:31):
And why the hell do you call the people from
their Dutch right.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's the Netherlands in the Holland things. She didn't call
it Holland. You go aha, And then again Dutch, what
is this?
Speaker 3 (34:41):
What's going on?
Speaker 6 (34:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, well it comes from because it was a
region that was then controlled by the Holy Roman.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Empire for a while before it.
Speaker 10 (34:52):
Was then congealed into a country. Many of the English
speaking traders would come to the coast, and part of
the Netherlands.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Is called Holland.
Speaker 10 (35:04):
Holland is more of a regional area now. For many
years even the government used the Netherlands in Holland interchangeably.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But at some point in.
Speaker 10 (35:14):
The not so recent past for marketing reasons and they
wanted to stay globally competitive, and there was confusion, they
decided to go with the Netherlands, which physically.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Means a low lying country. So there you go.
Speaker 10 (35:29):
Now Dutch, Why are they the Dutch people? This again
goes back to old English and blah blah blah. But
needless to say, the people from both both the now
Netherlands and Germany were called dutchy you may know that
of course Dutsch Deutschland is the way to say Germany
and German. So basically the whole region there were referred.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
To as Dutch.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
You know, I learned so much and I still understand nothing.
I still don't know why villains as Dutch people in home?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
You know what they may be the happiest people, but
they're not the best at naming the country. They could
be like really low, really low down, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, I'm happy because I'm wearing the belt the belt, and.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I'm happy because it's going to take you forty minutes.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Happy everybody your check.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now, Really, that's another episode of Really No Really. It
comes to a clothes Let's play a game.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I'll name eight.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Prominent countries and you guess where they rank in the
twenty twenty three survey or Happiest Countries in the World.
The answers will amaze you. But first let's thank our guests.
Very Unique vander Clay. You can follow her at her
website calmmind Psychology dot nl and on LinkedIn, where she
is at very Unique vander Clay. Find all pertinent links
in our show notes, our little show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube,
(36:53):
and threads at Really No Really Podcasts, And of course,
you can share your thoughts and feedback with us online
at really No. If you have a really some amazing
factor story that boggles your mind, share it with us
and if we use it, we will send you a
little gift nothing life changing, obviously, but it's the thought
that counts. Check out our full episodes on YouTube, hit
(37:15):
that subscribe button and take that bell so you're updated
when we release new videos and episodes.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Which we do each Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's
play our game. I'll name eight countries alphabetically. You try
and guess where they ball in the ranking of happiest
countries in the world. This is from a total ranking
of one hundred and forty three countries, so one through
one forty three. This is not child happiness, this is
(37:42):
all around happiness. And as a bonus, I'll tell you
where the United States falls at the end. Here are
your eight countries, alphabetically, Colombia, Egypt, England, Iraq, Japan, Mexico, Pakistan,
and Poland. Once again, they are Columbia, Egypt, England, Iraqi, Japan, Mexico, Pakistan,
and Poland. I'll give you a few moments. Okay, here's
(38:05):
your answers. Columbia is seventy eight, Egypt is one twenty seven,
England is twenty, Iraq is ninety two, Japan is fifty one,
Mexico is twenty five, Pakistan is one O eight, and
Poland is thirty five.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And where are my fellow Americans.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Do you think the USA falls?
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Well?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
In twenty twenty three, it fell out of the top
twenty for the first time. We currently said at number
twenty three. And with that, I'm moving to Finland. Toydella oikoshti.
That's finished for really no really, or it would be
if I had said it remotely correctly, which I am
sure I did not. Really No Razy, really, no really
(38:48):
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