Wartimes: David Byrne vs. The Other Talking Heads

At a time when most punk and new wave bands cranked their guitars and jacked up their song tempos, Talking Heads came out of NYC with a completely original and utterly funky sound. By the early '80s, they were one of the most popular and infectious bands on the planet. But inside the band, it was life during wartime, especially between lead singer David Byrne and the romantically linked rhythm section of Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth. Years after their acrimonious breakup, Chris and Tina would claim that David stole credit for songs and ideas. And yet ... they kept wanting to work with him.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Reveals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello Everyone.
This is Rivals, the show about music, beefs and feuds
and long summering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan,

(00:21):
and today we're gonna be talking about David Byrne versus
the other talking heads, specifically Chris France and Tina Weymouth,
since Axel and Slash got back together, and have to say,
I think talking Heads maybe sitting at the top of
the we are never ever, ever ever getting back together list,
wouldn't you say? Oh, no doubt, no doubt in the world.
Definitely the top of my personal wish list, though it's like,
definitely the band that I really want to see get

(00:41):
back together most, even though it will never happen. It's funny.
The feud always reminded me a lot of ways of
this few that split up the band, where you have
this like genial, laid back Southern drummer starting a group
only to be usurped by this lone songwriter who sort
of absorbed the drummer's essence and grooves. But I don't know.
I like David Byrne, I help a lot more than it,

(01:02):
Like Robbie Robertson, though, Yeah, I mean I love David
Byrne too, and I love the Talking Heads, and I agree.
I mean, this is like a band that I wish
I could have seen live, and I have no faith
at all that they will ever get back together. Even
in this age of like ever President reunion tours, it
seems pretty safe to assume the Talking Heads will not
be reuniting, and I suspect that it became even less

(01:23):
likely this year when former Talking Heads drummer Chris France
published a memoir called Remain in Love. Uh did you
read that book? By the way I write pieces of it,
I yes, it is pretty damning. Yeah, I mean, basically,
in the book, Chris France argues, and I think pretty
convincingly that David Byrne stole songwriting credits, that he took

(01:44):
credit for other ideas that weren't his, and that he's
essentially like a huge glory hog. And while I don't
think everything that France says in his book should be
taken in face value, and we'll get into that in
this episode, the fact that so much of the Talking
Heads conversation has been about Burn and not about the
band um is something that really ought to be addressed
and I think probably corrected. So I think we're gonna

(02:06):
do that in this episode and get into everything else
about the talking head. So without further ado, let's get
into this mess. The crux of the fuse really between
the three co founders, David Byrne, Chris Friends and Tina Weymouth,
who were classmates at Risdy Rhode Island School Design, And
the whole premise of starting the band was France's idea.

(02:27):
He had this dream of starting a band that would
basically be like a Dancy Art rock band that that
used R and B rhythms, and he spent a year
trying to find the right bassist, but eventually convinced his
girlfriend Tina to pick up the instrument and give it
a shot. And then when Chris suggested to uh his
friend David that he joined their little rhythm section, I guess,
David muttered, I guess so, without looking front in the eye. Yeah,

(02:49):
Like when you read the book, like the way he
describes David Byrne in this era is like is pretty funny.
Like he kind of sounds like the kid that I
think lives on every floor at a college dorm, you know,
like the kid that keeps to himself elf, who wears
weird clothes, and like I think at that time, like
David burn had like a really unkempt beard, so he
was just this like kind of socially awkward person. And

(03:11):
it makes it like pretty plain in a way that
David Burns on stage persona like isn't just an affectation
in a way that this is like a pretty like
genuine expression of who he is, And it seems like
it made it really hard to be around him in
a weird way, it kind of makes him seem more
authentic because it's like, yeah, like he wasn't just this

(03:31):
dude pretending to be like a sweaty, oddball guy like
in a really big suit, Like he really really like
was that guy that you know made him like one
of the most unique frontman in rock history. Oh yeah,
he really was aloof and shy, and he had a
hard time looking at people in the eye, and he
was definitely socially distanced before it was cool. And know
a lot of the friends at RIZ the thought that like, wait,

(03:51):
you're you're starting a band with this guy as your
front man. I think I think the phrase that that
that Chris used was a thin reed to lean on.
Did you ever see that our first band appearance on
the American band Stand in nineteen nine? Yeah, I mean,
I think Dick Clark asks David Burn like one question,
and it's clear that this isn't gonna go anywhere, so
then he like instantly changes course and just talks to

(04:13):
Tina Weymouth. Right. But it's like it's sort of just amazing.
It's like almost like breaking the fourth wall of a
show like Bandstand and that early too. It's just weird
to see something goes sort of that awry on such
a glitzy like slick show at that era. So and
I guess that in a lot of ways kind of
like it's one of the things I love about David
Byrne too, is that he's so much his own person. Well,

(04:33):
hasn't He said subsequently that he's basically on the spectrum
that like he either is like mildly autistic or might
have like borderline like Asperger's. I mean, I think he
has said that. It puts his behavior in a different
light when you consider that he says that that he
thinks he may have had that when in his younger
days and then he may have grew he thinks he
grew out of it, which I'm not a doctor, I

(04:54):
don't know if that's how that works, but whatever is
the case, it's fair to say that for all of
David's musical gifts and and he's very unique slant on
the world, he found it really hard to sort of
meet the social demands of working with other people. But
something it's also really interesting, which is also in Chris's book,
is that he had this kind of ruthless determination and
ambition that kind of seems at odds with this really

(05:15):
shy personality. In the book, there's a story where there
was a art gallery show and David's work was in it,
and I guess he snuck in the night before the
show opened, and David put his own work to the
very front of the gallery, so it looked like he
was like the headliner of that art gallery show, which
is very telling. I have to say. Yeah, in the book,

(05:37):
that's definitely like what they would call a foreshadowing episode
of what's going to happen like later on in the book.
And it's also a foreshadowing I guess, of what's going
to happen in this episode. But yeah, Like from very
early on, I think Chris France asserts this idea that
David Byrne had a way of pushing himself to the front,
even if he seemed ill at ease at times in

(05:58):
the Spotlight Um. He also admits in the book that
as awkward as David Byrne could be, just in mcgar conversation,
that he was undeniably a charismatic frontman. That like when
he was on stage, even when he hadn't quite found
his voice yet as a vocalist, that like you couldn't
really take your eyes off of him. We're gonna get
into this in the episode. I think there's lots of

(06:19):
things that explained the talking had success, but like a
big part of I think what makes that band unique
is the fact that David Byrne, especially for that time,
was like the last person you would expect to be
singing in a rock band, you know, Like he was
not Roger Daltry, He was not Robert Plant or Mick Jagger.
He was like a whole other archetype for like what
a rock star could be, right, I mean just getting

(06:41):
up there, moving the way he moved in like his
what was it like La cost shirt, like he he
looked like he was out of like honor Society program
right on stage at CBGBs or something like. It definitely
didn't didn't compute so the early days of the band
as they existed in New York, you know, because they
ended up moving to New York City after graduating from
art school. Really, it's like one of my favorite parts

(07:01):
of the book. Chris France writes really evocatively about like
the life that they had as these sort of young
bohemians living in uh nineteen seventies New York when New
York was like really this dangerous place, like where you know,
if you were living in like the Soho area, that
were like literally dead bodies like laying on the sidewalk
and no one would come around to pick it up.
At least that's how Chris France writes about it. From

(07:22):
Chris's perspective, he really looks at Tina as being, I guess,
like the caretaker of the band, Like she was the
one that was booking their gigs, like she would make
sure that they got paid at the end of the night.
So she was playing this really big role in the band,
and yet musically she was the least experienced out of
anyone in the band, and this ended up being like

(07:42):
a real point of contention with you know, between David
Byrne and Tina Weymouth well into the existence of Talking Heads,
where David Byrne constantly felt that Tina Weymouth wasn't up
to snuff musically. It seems like, I mean, because there's
stories about this in the book that like he considered
like hearing her from the band for the longest time,
I mean, like well into like the recording of their

(08:03):
first record, right oh yeah, when they got signed on
on Sire Records. He made Tina audition for her own
role in the band three times, which is I mean,
it's kind of amazing that she likes stuck it out
and by like time number two wasn't like no, go
to hell, like I don't, I don't need this, But
which is weird because I love her bass playing. I
actually think I like her earlier bass playing best because

(08:25):
it reminds me of Mo Tucker. Is kind of like
grade school style, like primitive playing that that does sound
so rock and roll in punk. I just think that's
something that was so integral to the band's early sound.
It's interesting to me that that David hated it so much. Yeah,
it's um, it's strange to me that he just focused
on her so much, because, yeah, I agree with you.
I think she's like a great bass player. And you know,

(08:46):
I don't know enough about bass playing to know like
what technical proficiency is. I mean, this is something you
should comment on because you're a bass player yourself, but
like I just know as a listener, like what I
respond to, and like her basslines were always like really unique.
It was this combination of again, like really funky grooves
that was coming at it from like a slightly different direction.
Like she wasn't playing like a conventional sort of R

(09:08):
and B or funk basis, and yet she could be
just as funky as those people. It was like this again,
like fractured art rock version of what they were doing.
And to me, like, when you think about the sound
of the Talking Heads, her bass playing is like a
huge part of that. And to replace her with like
a more conventional bass player I think would have just
defeated the purpose of this band. You know, Like the

(09:30):
point of the Talking Heads isn't that they were just
like a straightforward funk band. They would have been the
Ohio Players then or something if that was what they
were doing. And the Ohio Players are great, you know,
but like the Ohio Players can like play circles around
the talking Heads if you're just doing like a straight
ahead funk type thing. Talking Heads were about taking this
music and giving you a perspective on it that was
different at the time and would make you look at

(09:52):
it in a totally unique way. And again I think, yeah,
Tina Weymouth was like such a huge part of that.
But yeah, it just seems like generally David Byrne just
did not respect what she brought to the band, And
of course that ends up being a big theme of
Chris Francis book, And of course Tina is Chris his wife,
so he's even more protective of her in that regard.
But yeah, from the beginning of this band, it just
seems like there were these two different camps in the

(10:14):
band that we're going to be fighting for control. She
gave an interview in the in the documentary Girls and Bands,
where she she claimed that David told her they thought
a woman's role really shouldn't be in the big world
because it was a dangerous place for women. So, according
to her. That was the kind of mentality she was
up against in the band, and I'm sure at the
culture at large and in the mid seventies and to
your point, when you're an inexperienced young bass player, you're

(10:36):
so anxious to just hit the right notes and and
to get there and just make sure your fingers in
the right place. You're not as focused on groove and
flow and just kind of like being a little bit
more more liquid. I guess you're just you just want
to hit it, and it gives it this funny, rigid
lock step sound that I think is really integral to
early punk and definitely the early Talking Heads. I think

(10:58):
a lot of that sound where it's kind of herky,
jerky and rigid, is sort of where that came from.
It came from her, And this is gonna be something
that we're going to explore a bit in this episode
about like what made Talking Heads great, because I think
there's two different perspectives on that, depending on like what
camp you're in. I think David Byrne had an idea
of what the band was, what made them unique, and

(11:18):
I think France and Weymouth had their own idea, and
ultimately I think it's what they brought together that is
what makes the talking heads like, you know, one of
the great American bands. I think. Yeah, there was definitely
like a war going on about like who is going
to be in control and what the direction of the
band was going to be. And it seems like in
the early days that when it was just Burn France

(11:42):
and Weymouth, that they were basically a democracy. And it
makes me think of about the writing of the song
Warning Sign, for instance, which is a song on their
second record, more songs about buildings and food, but was
actually like among the first songs they ever wrote. And
it's also like one of the first big conflicts in
this band. Yeah, I think. Chris said that he wrote
it during during college. He wrote it almost completely on

(12:04):
his own, years before David was even in the picture,
I think. And so they recorded it for their second
album and then David made some tweaks to it and
just credited the song to himself, and Chris said that
he didn't really realize that until he got the finished
record and saw that the credits on the on the
sleeve and said, well, wait a minute, I did that,
and David, to his credit, uh, promised him that it

(12:27):
would be fixed on future pressings and it was, but uh,
it's something that kind of kept reoccurring. And again it
reminds me of the band too, whether it's something that
was creative so collectively that then when the record is released,
they look at and see this just credited the one
person and apologies are made. But it keeps happening again
and again and again. Well, yeah, it happens again. For

(12:47):
the song life during Wartime, which was on the next
Talking Heads record in nine Fear of Music, and that's
like one of the most famous songs. It's the song
where they say they ain't no party, they say no disco,
they ain't no fool it around. Like that song one
of the most quotable lines in any Talking Head song.
And according to France, that's a song that came out
of a jam session between him and Tina. He says

(13:09):
that Tina actually wrote the vocal melody of that song,
and of course when the record comes out, it's credited
solely to David Byrne. And it's interesting to me this
whole idea about songwriting versus like the sound of a band,
because obviously, when we talk about what makes money in
the band, like songwriting is huge, Like publishing is one

(13:30):
of the most reliable ways for a musician to make
a lot of money, like once they start making records
and often to like in terms of like how we
talk about music, it seems like fans and critics like
we fixate on songwriting being the hallmark of like the
height of creativity, Like are you a great songwriter? That
means that you are like the au tour of the band,

(13:50):
like if you're writing the songs. But I feel like
songwriting and I don't know how you feel about this.
I feel like songwriting can be a little overrated that
a lot of times with the band, Yeah, you need
great songs, but it's also about this sort of intangible
chemistry that exists between musicians that ends up creating this
unique sound, and that is just as important for a

(14:14):
band being great. It's just like that's harder to quantify.
Like you can point to a song on paper and
say this is what a song is, and we know
what it is. But that elusive chemistry thing, like you
can't really put that on paper. It's just something that
exists and you know it when you hear it. I mean,
does that make sense? Yeah, it makes me think a
lot of the documentaries you see on like The Wrecking

(14:34):
Crew or the The Funk Brothers, where I think Carol
Ka another incredible female bassist. I was talking about playing
the beat goes on the Sully and Share song, and
it was just this kind of straight ahead bland pop song,
and she came up with a bum bum bum bum
bum bum bum bum, which makes the song. I mean,
that's the hook of the song. And I don't think
she got anything for that other than the standard session rate.

(14:56):
So yeah, it's interesting about what actually makes a song successful.
You can you can write all the notes of the
melody and write the chord sheets and everything down, but
there are these little magic moments when the band gets
together that really actually make it take off. And I
think the Talking Heads are great example of that, where
it is such a collective sound. And yeah, his words
are unbelievable, but but yeah, the rhythm especially, I mean

(15:17):
you really, I mean Jerry Harrison when when he joined,
he was he was on their first one too, right, Yeah,
he was on seventy seven after they had signed the side. Yeah,
I mean he brought a lot, but especially Chris and
Tina in the early club days before they were signed.
I mean, so much of it was about their rhythm
and groove, Yeah, I think. I mean there's two things
I would say about songwriting and talking heads, and like

(15:39):
one could be a defensive burn and one could be
a defensive France and waymouth. Like on one hand, like
when you read Chris France's book Remain in Love, you know,
he talks about warning signed, he talks about life during wartime.
He talks about the song Psycho Killer, like how all
the members of the band were throwing out lyrics and
how they basically wrote that song together. And there's also

(16:00):
so the example of remain in light that album. We're
going to talk about that in a minute, the collaborative
aspects of that. But for the most part in that book,
like there's not a ton of information about how songs
are written or like how albums are made. Like instead,
there's like a lot of material about like going on
the road, including like a really long chapter that is
almost like a blow by blow account of their first

(16:20):
European tour. It's almost like too long, Like I had
to skip some parts of that chapter. I have to
say too, Like when I read rock memoirs, I rarely
read them from cover to cover because like, I don't
care about the part before they got famous, and then
I don't really care about the part after they stopped
making great records, Like I only want the meat in there.
That's true of Chris France's book too. Yeah, And I

(16:45):
just feel like, you know, maybe he didn't include some
of that material about the making of Safe Fear of
Music or you know, speaking in tongues. But I feel
like if they had been in on more songwriting sessions,
like he would have written about that, you know, because
it just seems like that would have bolstered his case
for uh, them being these vital contributors to the songwriting

(17:07):
of the band. And there's a lot of stories in
there about like Chris being backstage and like partying and
doing blow with like other people and having a great time,
and David Byrne is nowhere to be found, and I'm
just wondering at those moments, like, well, was David writing
songs at that time? He's probably like chilling out, you know,
I don't know. To me, like, if you read between
the lines in that book, there's a case to be
made that maybe David Byrne was doing a lot of

(17:29):
work while Chris was having some good times. On the
other hand, I do think, kind of going back to
my point before that, with the Talking Heads, I think
they have great songs, but to me, their music is
just about the sound, or just as much about the
sound as it is about the songs, like the way
that they play together. And to me, that's especially true

(17:50):
of to me, their greatest album, and like one of
the greatest albums ever made, Remain in Light. I think
Remain Light has great songs, but it's about how those
songs come together and just the crazy grooves and like
all the ideas that exist in that music. And to me,
that's about the band more than like any one person,
which is weird when you consider how it actually all
came together. Do you know the story it actually it

(18:12):
seemed like the band was about to break up after
their nineteen seventy nine European tour. Yeah, I heard that story.
I mean, basically, like burn didn't he tell the journalist
that he was like about to quit the band? Yeah,
And then the journalist goes and find Tina and Chris
and said, well, what do you have to say about this?
David just told me he's quitting and they essentially said, well,
that's news to us. And this is the point when uh,

(18:35):
David and Brian Eno have been working more and more
closely together. Uh he's David wanted to kind of go
off and do more of stuff like My Life and
In the Bush of Ghosts and albums like that. So Tina, Chris,
and Jerry booked their own sessions with Brian, Uh, just
sort of instrumental sessions to jam in a way that
I always kind of took to sort of like make

(18:55):
David jealous and to kind of bring him back into
the fold like that and just say, Okay, well they're
all hanging out, maybe all joined too. And those early
sessions were what evolved in the Remaining Light, which you said,
I definitely think it's the most collaborative album they've ever made,
Like they really brought so many different elements to it. Yeah,
And I think it started out with that idea too.
I think it was very much of an intentional thing,

(19:16):
Like I think even Burne agreed at the beginning that
this was going to be a collaborative record, like we're
all going to be working together, We're all going to
be you know, coming up with ideas, right. And the
amazing thing about that record is that it sounds like
they're working with loops, you know, or that you know
that they're sort of piecing this together maybe just like
in a studio somewhere. And there's obviously like a lot

(19:36):
of overdubs on that album, but a lot of the
amazing music on that record was just it just came
out of them playing together in the room. And um,
it really does I think represent like a pretty high
level of creativity for a band. Could David Byrne have
done that record and he's working with like session musicians
you know that that he just put together? You know? Possibly,

(19:58):
you know, But I really feel like that record was
the combination of like those people working together, bringing other collaborators,
and just having that certain special chemistry that could create
an album that amazing. Yeah, I mean, you've got elements
of funk, you've got electronica, you've got these like African polyrhythms.
It sounds like something like Fella Cooty would have done
or something like that. And like you said, I don't

(20:19):
think that it probably would have ended up sounding almost
more like a Steely Dan type album if if he
just got a bunch of session guys in there. I
feel like, yeah, so you know they're working on this record,
and like you said, I think initially the idea of
them jamming together was just to get David burn back
into the band because you know, he was working on
My Life and the Bush It goes with Brian Eno,
which is an amazing record by the way, um and

(20:42):
is I think somewhat similar to what they were doing
on The Remaining Light. But I think Remaining Light is ultimately,
you know, a greater record. But of course, when it
comes down to putting this record out, there's another disagreement
about credits, and I mean, do you know the story.
I mean, initially, I think Brian Eno like wanted to
be credit it, like in the top line of the

(21:02):
record that he wanted to be like Talking Heads and
Brian Eno, and of course Talking Heads scuttled that idea.
But then there was another weird thing with the songwriting credits.
Oh yeah, weren't they It was gonna be all alphabetical,
and then David, probably with ENO's help, went and switched
it around somehow. What did he do, Yeah, well, it's
gonna be all the band members listen alphabetically like, like
you said, so it would have been like, you know,

(21:22):
David Byrne, Brian Eno, Chris France, Jerry Harrison, Tina Weymouth.
And then when the record came out, it was David Byrne,
Briany no talking Heads, like everyone else in the band
was just put in to the talking Heads camp. And
again it was this idea of like David Byrne separating
himself from the rest of the band, when in reality

(21:42):
again I mean, look, no one is going to sort
of overlook David Byrne's contributions to that record. I mean,
I think vocally he sounds amazing on that record, and
I love his lyrics. But to me, that's like the
epitome of like a collaborative effort. And to say that
like David Burne's contributions or briany As contributions were anymore
than the people in the band, it just seems like

(22:03):
kind of a cheesy move by Bird, you know, it
just doesn't seem warrant it. Yeah, I mean, just to
other himself like that from his own band, a really
weird move. Yeah. Reminds me think Gilligan's Island when they're
doing the theme and then they just do that and
the rest part No one like good Gilligan's Island rough Anyway,
it's always good to bring Gilligan's Island into an episode,

(22:24):
all right, hand, We'll be right back with more rivals.
Another crazy thing that was happening around this time, of course,
was Tom Tom Club with with with Christentina, because you
have David Byrne establishing his own solo thing. He's got
My Life in the Bush of Ghosts and he's going

(22:45):
to do another album called The Catherine Wheel. And of
course I think David Byrne got like a pretty big
solo deal around this time, so he's getting a lot
of money to prey out these records, whereas Christentina they
started putting together Tom Time Club and there's no not
a ton of interest I think from labels, but then
they end up having a huge success. And I know
you're a big Tom Tom Club fan. Oh yeah, that

(23:07):
album is nuts because it reminds me of of sort
of like the British beat boom in the early sixties
when you got a bunch of like like white students
trying to play the blues and they kind of screw
it up and they kind of make their own thing.
That's how I feel about Tom Tom Club in regards
to hearing emerging hip hop sounds out in the Bronx
and they kind of do their own thing with it
and create something by accident that fuses a little more

(23:28):
electro and with hip hop and some late seventies influences,
and it's fascinating. I think anyone who doubts Christentina's contributions
to The Talking Heads should definitely get more into that record,
because it's it's so just so distinct and you see
so clearly what they brought to those two stuff like
Remain and Light. It's an incredible album and uh did

(23:51):
very well, and I think David hated it. Yeah, it's right,
like they need to say it was like merely commercial,
merely popular. I think it was what he right. Yeah,
he was definitely like putting it down. But I think
it was pretty clear that he was jealous. I think
like like they could tell that it bothered him, so
like on some level they must have gotten some enjoyment

(24:12):
out of, you know, how piste off he was, because
you know, again you know the records that he made
at that time I think are really well regarded, especially
My life and The Bush of Ghosts. But you know,
clearly like that album wasn't a hit at all. I
mean it was more of like a critical favorite. And
then Tom Tom Club I think ended up going gold.
I think it beat Talking Heads the Growing Gold. I

(24:33):
think that I don't think any of their albums have
gone gold up to that point. So yeah, that, and
and David was doing Katherine Wheel with like was it
Twilight Harpe, I think was aiming for fine art credibility,
and so you can see where he's coming from with
this merely popular comments like well, okay, anyone could get
a number three song or whatever it was, but like
I'm I'm actually trying to make genuine, real fine arn't here.

(24:54):
So that's creating a lot of tension obviously between David Christentina.
And you know, it's interesting looking at this in retrospect
because I feel like David would talk about this in
subsequent years that I think from his perspective, he was
almost like a guy that like wants to get out
of a bad relationship, but he doesn't have the guts
to break up with the girls, so he just starts

(25:15):
acting like a jerk, hoping that show break up with him.
Like that seems to be the dynamic at this time
because I think David would say later on he was like,
you know, like why did they want to be in
a band with me? I mean they were unhappy, you know,
it seemed like there was a lot of tension. You know,
it's they would complain about David Byrne, but like they
also wanted to keep working with him, and it seemed like,

(25:38):
you know, as they would go on in their career
that there was just you know, I guess starting with
The Remaining Light where they had to sort of like
trick him to get into the studio that, um, you know,
every project that they would work on after that, including
you know, music that we all love, like like the
album Speaking in Tongues, which I think which was the
first platinum record that Talking has ever put out, and

(25:59):
then of course making Sense that concert film comes out
of that tour. It just seems like David Burne is
taking more and more control and doing what he can
do to alienate Chriscentina. But like Christentina, they're upset about it,
but they won't actually split up the band. Yeah, you
would say in later years, Tina would send David these
letters that would just open up with paragraphs just calling

(26:20):
him every name under the sun and what a jerk
he was, and all litany of all the things that
they've done to he'd done to wrong them, and then
at the end be like, so, so, why don't you
want to be with us anymore? Why don't you want
to play with us? And he would get all confused
and said, well, you kind of answered your own question.
You know, why would I want to be around these
people that clearly hating me as much as they do.
And also, like you said, why do you want to

(26:41):
be around me? Like this isn't good for anybody. It's
fascinating to me because you know, when you think about
the talking heads like in the early eighties, I think
a lot of us think about the film Stopped Making Sense,
which is, for my money, it's like the greatest concert
film ever made. I mean, you could maybe say the
last waltz would be in the conversation, but um, you know,

(27:05):
Stop Making Sense. It's such a blast of joy, you
know when you watch it and it's one of those
movies like I've seen it a couple of times in
movie theaters and people get up out of their seats
and dance in the aisles like during that movie. I mean,
that's how infectious it is, and you just think like,
oh wow, like this is such a happy band and

(27:25):
and yet like they were going through such misery behind
the scenes, and like, you know, as as much as
we associate like that tour with the film, that was
also their last tour, wasn't it. Yeah, that was the
tour where David sort of like stormed off on stage.
They were playing I think the last show of the
tour down in New Zealand, and he started the show

(27:47):
by by uh letting some protesters come up and and share.
I think it was an indigenous people's wanted to to
to share their what they had to say, and David
let them up, and it did not go down well
with the crowd, who started booing them and the band.
So the vibe was already really bad when they started
to play and they get a few songs in and
David walks off the stage. I think it was like

(28:08):
after five songs or something and the others are just
kind of playing went from to come back, and I
think Chris goes and chases him and literally drags him
back on and David sr what do I want to
what do I want to play with these audiences? We
just have their feet stuck in the mud, which is
a weird thing to say. When it wasn't raining and
it was just a miserable show, and he kind of
begrudgingly finished it. And then after the show there was

(28:30):
an after party, and I don't think David even showed up,
and it was just pretty clear by that point that
that he was done and he didn't want to go
on the road anymore. And every time the rest of
the band would mention it, he would just say, you know,
all you want is the money. You don't want to
go out there actually in the road. All you all
you want is money. So that would kind of moot
any uh any touring discussions. And then there was this
weird thing which I when I read this, I couldn't

(28:51):
really believe that this was even on the table. But
I think Chris and Tina like approached Adrian Blue, who
was like this brilliant guitar player. He was a good
he was a touring member of the Talking Heads in
the early eighties. He'd also like played with I think
he played like with did he play with the David
Bowie and like King Crimson. I mean, like he has
a great rock like pedigree, and um, they approached Adrian

(29:14):
Blue about becoming the new frontman of Talking Heads. There's
been some debate in laters as to whether or not
that was what they were actually offering, or or inviting
him to actually just join the band as a as
another guitarist. But yeah, what wisely, uh, he was kind
of like no, no, thank you. I don't really the
ship seems to be going down at this point, because
it was pretty clear that that they were not a

(29:35):
happy group by this point. Yeah. So you know, they
played this terrible show in New Zealand. You know Burn,
you know, storms off stage. He says he doesn't want
to tour anymore, and you would think that like maybe
at that point the writing should have been on the wall,
you know that, Like okay, like David doesn't want to
tour anymore, he's less and less interested in our input.
And then you get into those like last couple Talking

(29:56):
Heads records. You have like The Little Creatures comes out
in Hive and then you have True Stories comes out
in eighty six. It's a soundtrack to a film that
David Byrne directed, And I mean those albums, you know,
as much as like Remain in Light feels like a
very collaborative album, Like those albums feel like David Byurne
solo records where the band is backing him up. I mean,

(30:19):
is that fair to say, because I know that like
for Little Creatures, for instance, like David Burne just like
came into the studio with like finished songs I think
for the first time ever, and it seemed like more
than ever, like at that point, he was just presenting
his songs to the band. Yeah, he was pretty explicit
about saying, you know, all right, you want to make
a regular with me, I'm going to handle the songs.
And he would come in with like tapes on his
boom box and play it to the band say Okay,

(30:40):
this is what we're gonna do. But I think that
there was still a lot of group arrangement going on,
to which which Chris says in his book the bandn't
really get credit for and and they were almost sort
of used to it by that point. They were just like, Okay,
this is what he's like, this is how he is.
If if we're gonna make music with him, that's the deal.
We're just gonna keep on making good music and we'll
keep on Owen as a band, because I think at

(31:02):
that point again you use the abusive relationship analogy, and
they were kind of like, well, I'm being treated really poorly,
but this band is the most important thing. It's more
important than me, it's more important than him, it's more
important than all of us. It's all about the band,
and if we want to stay together, I'm just gonna
take what every dish is out. So you said they
were really reduced aside, and then by that point, you know,
this is such an issue. I don't know what your

(31:23):
take is on this, but like you know, when I
read Chris Francis book, there are a lot of things
I was sympathetic about, and we've talked about some of
those things already, you know again, like the warning sign example,
like during wartime, remaining light, you know, the weird things
that happened with the songwriting credits there. I think that's
all legitimate. I have to say that at this moment
in time, this idea of that like I'm just going

(31:44):
to be a doormat for David Byrne. I have a
hard time accepting this because Chris and Tina, they had
Time Time Club. You know, they've had success with that.
It's like, why are you still in this situation where
you feel so poorly treated? I just don't understand the
motivation would have been unless it was economic. I mean really,
I mean that that seems like the only explanation that, like,

(32:05):
we're in this very successful band, and you know, as
much as we don't like David Byrne, maybe on some
level we recognize that we will be much better off
financially if we're with him. I mean, is that the
only explanation for them still being a band like at
this point, like in the mid eighties. I mean the book,
you get the impression that Chris in the book is
very naive is the right word, but sort of like
wide eyed, and you get the idea that that he

(32:27):
is overblown, just completely bowled over by David's talent too.
So if you're going to take the less cynical approach
and say, maybe it wasn't just purely we're in this
huge band that could net us a ton of money
with albums and tours, maybe they just wanted to work
with him because they thought he was such a genius artist.
That's that's my my more optimistic approach to it. Yeah,
I mean I think there's that's true on some level,

(32:49):
But I have to go back to like the reading
between the lines aspect, which I feel like with a
lot of rock memoirs you have to do. You have
to like read what they're saying, but then you also
have to look at like what they're leaving out. And
to me, what's left out of this story is maybe
an acknowledgment that they were not going to be as
successful without David Byrne as they were with him, and

(33:12):
that David Burnett by this time had enough celebrity where
right or wrong, he could assume the mantle of Talking
Heads on his own, which has proved to be true
after the band broke up. Like as much as David
Byrne has like not wanted to reunite with the band,
he also hasn't been shy about exploiting the legacy of
Talking Heads like for his own benefit. And I think

(33:34):
he learned at some point that, like, I can play
these songs on my own and I can reap the
benefits of it without having to deal with these other
people that I'm maybe sick of being around. Um, you know,
there must have been maybe some realization on the part
of Chris and perhaps Tina, Like I think there's probably
some powerlessness that they were experiencing at that time. It's
like it sucks for them that that ended up being true,

(33:54):
but like that seems to be how things unfolded, because
if you look at their breakup, you know, I think
the breakup was announced in and it was after David
Byrne did this interview. I think he was talking to
the Los Angeles Times. And by the way, this was
like three years after the last Talking Heads record, which
was Naked came out. No tour for that album, of course, um,

(34:17):
and David Byrne, I think had already gotten his solo
career going by that point. And if you look at
that l A Times interview, like David Bryne just basically
snaps at this reporter, right like the reports asking about
Talking Heads, and he's like, dude, we broke up, alright,
we broke up or whatever I think is the quote.
Isn't it something like that? Yeah, he's promoting oh solo
album and the only interview wants to do is ask

(34:37):
about when the next Talking Heads record is coming. And
he found you could say we've broken up, call it
whatever you like, stops that line of questioning dead. And
of course Tina, Chris and Jerry knew nothing about this,
and they found out when the interview was published. Just
cold well, and I mean, I love this story, even
though it's kind of sad. I mean, they ended up
having like one final band meeting, and David has a

(34:58):
pretty amazing quote, like a a parting shot, like do
you do you know what he said? I really want
to hear you said, Well, he said, you know again.
It's kind of going back to this thing that I
was talking about before about how I think in David
Burne's mind he was acting in a way that like
should have made the band want to dump him. Yeah,
It's like I don't want to break up with you,

(35:20):
but I'm making it clear that like you should break
up with me. And at one point he just like
yells at the other people in the band, David Byrne,
He says, you should be calling me an asshole. You know,
It's like it's like he snaps. It's almost like he
lost respect for them because they didn't stand up to him.
You know. That seemed to be the dynamic at the
end of the band and then they would say later

(35:40):
years Christent Tina would say, you know, we thought that
if we just kind of like smiled and took it
and just like waited it out, like he would come
back like he did for Remain in Light and everything.
And and finally it was clear at this point, you
know how many years twelve years after remand and like that,
that the rest of the band weren't getting the memo.
David didn't want to be there. So then he screams,
you should be calling me an asshole, which again said
incredible parting shot. So one of the weirdest things for me,

(36:03):
like after that breakup that occurs in one was the
story of the Heads, that sort of reunion record. Do
you remember that record? I couldn't get into it, even
though they had some great names on it. I mean
they had Debbie Harry, any Partridge, the guy from an
Excess to from Happy Mondays like, but yeah, I didn't
find it very listenable. Yeah, Like the idea was that

(36:25):
the three band members of the Talking Heads, you know,
Chris Tina and Jerry Harrison. Poor Jerry Harrison, by the way,
who we have not really talked about. It seemed like
he was just sort of on the sidelines of all this,
and of course he ended up joining the band after
they got their record deal for Talking Had seventy seven,
and seemed like he was sort of like outside of
a lot of this psycho drama going on between David Christentina.

(36:47):
But anyway, like on the Heads record, which by the way,
was called No Talking Just Head uh, which is like
the best part of that record is the album title,
like it's all downhill from there. But yeah, like the
idea was that like they would play and they'd have
different singers perform on each song, and I feel like
all that album did was underscore how the Talking Heads
are not as interesting if David Byrne is not the

(37:09):
lead singer. That like, as great as the band is
that if you have Michael Hutchins singing, it's just not
the same thing as great as Michael Hutchins's. Michael Hutchins
should be in excess. You shouldn't be in Talking Heads,
you know, all those other people they should be doing
their own thing. They shouldn't be in the Talking Heads.
So it's like that's like a tribute album move to
have like a different singer on every song, to like

(37:30):
that that just confused me too, Like I couldn't I
couldn't get comfortable with what I was hearing because I
felt like every time, every new song was just a
totally different thing, another thing I feel like we should
talk about. And I feel a little weird about this
because this book I think is kind of problematic. Uh.
It's a Talking Heads biography that came out in two
thousand two, written by David Bowman. It's called This Must
be the Place The Adventures of Talking Heads in the

(37:52):
twentieth Century. And I feel like the most memorable part
of this book has to deal with Tina and David's relationship.
And I mean, is am I going too far to
suggest that that book is like a hatchet job against
Tina Weymouth. I mean, it's pretty brutal toward her. Oh yeah,
I mean he characterizes Tina as a little brittle with

(38:14):
the vibe of a Catholic saint or maybe a tragically
lame prima ballerina, or maybe Valerie Salonis, the woman who
shot Andy Warhol. So yeah, and that's just describing her.
That's not even the stuff that he alleges that she did. Yeah,
I mean, can you tell the baby penis story. I mean,
this blows me away. I thought I thought you ever
asked the baby penis aspect of this book. I don't.

(38:39):
I don't know whether to take it at based value
or not. I feel like we should preface this by
saying that, like a lot of these stories are based
on like unnamed sources who are maybe I'm guessing our
good friends of David Byrne and I don't know if
David put them up to this or if they just
felt they need to defend him, But yeah, the baby
penis story is definitely the weirdest well in Bowman book,

(39:00):
he claims that Tina would call several of David's old
friends in the middle of the night to tell them
that he had and now I'm quoting a baby penis,
which is I think unprecedented in the you know, post
band breakup fallout like revenge moves, I've never heard of that.
That is extremely if you have baby penis on your
rivals bingo card, congratulations. I know you didn't expect to

(39:24):
mark that, but yeah, we we have our first baby
penis and uh in a rival's episode and then she
also apparently allegedly claimed that David killed the boy at
a party in Brazil using voodoo. Uh. She said that
there was an article the Bowman Road, I think for Salon,
and this is she's quoted as saying David is a

(39:45):
vampire in a way. Uh, it might be something more complex.
Psychics have seen him and they say he just has
a firewall around him. Ah. That's a scary quote. Uh.
And and Bowman's sort of he thinks that this is
born out of Tina is actually secretly in love with David,
that they had had some relationship back at riz Dy

(40:06):
and it didn't work out, and now she's just trying
to destroy him. That's I think where he's coming from
with this, which is like, you know, that's a that's
distasteful to me. I guess I'll put it that way.
So there's something very there's something very sort of stereotypical
about painting. Tina Weymouth is like some sort of scorned woman,

(40:27):
especially since her husband is also in the band. I
I don't know that. I mean that I have a
hard time sort of wrapping my head around. I mean,
one thing that I think does make sense to me
that in the in the book, you know, there's you know,
David Byrne is basically again kind of reiterating this idea
that like Chris and I guess, you know, I guess
especially Tina like really came to hate him by the

(40:49):
end of the band. And there's a quote in there
we'd say, you know, they'd say, what a fucking dumb
jerk and asshole piece of shit I was. Uh. And
he's referring to like letters that Tina would send to
him supposed lead and he said it would go into
detail about how badly I behaved, what a terrible person
I was, how hard I was to work with, how
unfair I was. It was this thing meant to make
me feel real terrible, and how much I hate you.

(41:10):
I hate you, I hate you. Uh. And then in
the end she'd go, why don't you want to work
with us? And he says, you've answered the question. There's
some kind of weird denial going on, and I have
to say, you know, and again like not knowing what's
true or what's exaggerated. The core of that argument, this
idea that like Chris and Tina have both talked about
how much they hate David Byrne, all the terrible things

(41:32):
that he's done in the band. If you take all
that at face value, it's like, why do you want
to keep working with this guy? Like this guy who's
you say has taken credit from you, who you know
hogs the spotlight, who you feel like it's not a
good friend or collaborator, and yet there's always this continued
desire to get back together. That's the strange thing about
the story that doesn't make sense. Like if you could

(41:53):
just say, like I don't want to be around this guy,
which I kind of feel like that is the ultimate
message of Chris France's book at the end. I mean
maybe they are at that point now, but yeah, like
it's a strange this cycle of abuse baby in this relationship,
it's like, just stay broken up. As much as we
want to see them get back together, in a way
like for the emotional and psychological health of the people involved,

(42:16):
it's probably best that they don't, right. I Mean I
can almost see wanting to just sort of make peace
with the situation and not end on such such bad terms.
Because because the point I mention, David Byurn tried to
sue uh Tina and Chris when they put the heads together.
He tried to sue them for for for using the
head's name. He thought it was a pretty blatant attempt
to cash in on the Talking Heads brand that that

(42:37):
David was a part of UH. And I think they
ended up settling UH in exchange for letting David have
total control over over putting out future catalog reissues and
stuff like that, which is kind of a big concession,
letting him sort of have control over the musical legacy
of the band going forward to But so there are

(42:58):
was a lot of of of bad blood between in them,
and so maybe you could argue that they just want
to be like, Okay, one more time for old time's sake,
let's make it good and then go our separate ways forever,
which they kind of did at the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. Yeah, but even there there was weirdness.
Like in the Chris France book, he tells the story
about how you know they were together at the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame. They ended up playing a

(43:19):
bunch of songs together. It seems like the rehearsals like
went pretty smooth, and then at the party that night,
like after the ceremony, David Byrne ghosted his wife at
the time, left her alone at the party and then
later told Chris that that was the night that he
decided that he was going to divorce his wife of
several decades. Yeah, exactly. Like so he essentially like left

(43:41):
his wife after the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony.
I mean, look like David Byrne is a weirdo. I
think we can say that that he's a weird guy. Emotionally,
I'm sure that he was very frustrating to deal with,
and like I my heart goes out to the other
people in Talking Heads who you know, had to put
up with that. But it to expect him to act differently,

(44:02):
I mean that is the definition of insanity. You know,
to expect a different results when you have decade of
evidence of a person acting in a certain way, you know,
at the point you got to catch in your chips
and walk away. And I feel like when you see
this guy that you've known forever to be an on
ball and to be emotionally difficult, and you see that,
like right after receiving this great honor from the Rock

(44:23):
and Roll Hall of Fame, that's when he decides to
leave his wife, and like he does it just by
ghosting her at the party. You're not going to reconcile
with this guy. You know, you're not going to get
the emotional closure that you need. I mean, it just
seems like it's impossible with a person like that. There
is a lot to impact there. And to your your
point earlier about like maybe we just trying to send
the band the message by acting horribly and trying to
get them to leave him, maybe by getting back together

(44:46):
with a band. Then that he realized, oh, that approach
doesn't work with in this case, my wife that I
want to leave. So maybe after being on stage with
these people, he said, you know what, pass mcgression doesn't
work when you're end a relationship. Honey, we're done. So
maybe that was when he got out of it. Who knows.
So in reality it was a happy ending. He learned
a lesson and he was like, yeah, you know what,

(45:07):
instead of passive aggressive behavior, I'll just leave just jet
and that's how I'll break up with my wife. So
you know that, the more you know, you know life lessons.
Right there, we're gonna take a quick break to get
a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals.

(45:33):
All right, so we've now reached the part of the
episode where we talked about the pro side of each
part of the rivalry, and let's start with David Byrne.
You know, we've gone through some of the sins that
he committed when he was in Talking Head, Stealing songwriting credits,
being a glory hug, just being like a general weirdo.
I guess in terms of like just interpersonal relationships. It
also must be said that he is like one of

(45:55):
the greatest and most unique frontman and rock history. And
I really think that he's like a pretty wonderful singer,
definitely an original, you know singer, And I don't think
there's like a real dispute, you know, aside from the
examples that we mentioned specifically that he was like the
main driving force behind the songwriting of the band um

(46:16):
and I don't doubt that he like took more credit
than he deserved. I think that's true of like a
lot of lead singers, a lot of like so called
tours and bands. You know, the people that we look
at as being the people in charge. Often if you
talk to the other people in that person's band, they'll
they'll be upset that they feel like they're not getting
the proper credit. You know, I think that's like a

(46:36):
well established story that we've talked about in many other
episodes of the show. But again, at the end of
the day, there's a reason why David Byrne is the
star of the band. He's the most charismatic person and uh,
I think he's probably the most unique part of the band.
Oh yeah, absolutely, And my favorite thing about him. And
you could say that he's an incredible musician, uh, an

(46:57):
incredible sort of like elder Statesman of rock or whatever,
but I think that his his lyrics are my favorite
part of what he does. And I love his books
as well for the same reason because it's just sort
of it's not poetic in your flowery in any way.
It just slices through artifice and just gets to like
the very just weirdness of being alive. I always thought
of him as like being more of an anthropologist in

(47:19):
a way too, and it makes he comments on things
that we all do with this sense of like isn't
that weird? I mean, you've got just absurdity with things
like making flippy floppy or just like I remember he
had a song on his latest album, UH called Bullet
where he just tells the story of a murder from
the point of view of a bullet, and I just
thought that was so it almost like a yoko on

(47:40):
No set of lyrics or something. I always thought that
his lyrics were like conceptual art where there is no
real poetry around. It was I'm presenting you with this item,
with this object. You figure out why I am showing
you this. You figure out why this has meaning for me.
And that's something that I always really appreciated about his work.
So if you go to the pro Chris and Tina side,

(48:01):
I'm just gonna go back to an argument I made
earlier in this episode, which is that I think Talking
Heads there's a lot of great songs in their catalog,
you know, and songs that have been covered by other
artists and and and they can really stand alone as songs. However,
I do feel like the greatest music of this band's career,
and I guess I'll start with Remaining Light being at
the top of that list. Are as much to do

(48:21):
with the sound of the band as it has to
do with songwriting. And if David Byrne had taken his
songs and just performed them with a studio band, it
would he would not come up with something like Remain
in Light. You know, that was the result of again
this very hard to quantify but extremely crucial chemistry that

(48:41):
existed between these musicians. And when you think about Talking
Head songs, what makes them go a lot of the
time is the rhythm section. You know, there's great grooves
and their grooves that like not only are really funky
and danceable, but like they're not played in sort of
a conventional funk, R and B type way. They're something
a little different about it, a little off kilter. That's

(49:03):
just totally unique to this band, and it's what to
this day I think makes those records hold up so well.
I mean, those first five records that Talking Heads put out,
I mean there's for me, that's like some of the
greatest music ever made. And um, Christentina I think, along
with Jerry Harrison, deserve a lot of credit for how
those records sound. And as much as you want to

(49:24):
say that David Byrne, as I said before, I think
he's a totally unique frontman. I think he's charismatic, I
think he wrote some great lyrics. The sound of Talking Heads,
to me is what pulls me back into those records.
Time and again, and Christentina have a lot to do
with that. I'm trying to think now, I can't think
of a single Talking Heads cover that I've ever heard
that has stuck with me. I'm really trying to think.

(49:45):
For all of their really iconic songs, I I'm coming,
I'm sure of thinking anyone's actually cover them in a
way that I remember. Right now, I can't even think
of anything. I think that, as you said, speaks to
the power of the band dynamic as a whole, as
opposed to David Byrne writing great songs. I don't know
how those songs would work if somebody else rearranged them
in performing a different way. I think, I'm sure there's

(50:06):
a way to do it in a way that that
that's that's interesting and and would show a different side
of it. But yeah, it's it's the sound of all
those records that make them so special to me. And
that sound was something that I think Chris, at least
that's what he says in his book, set out to
do at the very beginning, was kind of like a
dancy art rock band. I mean, of course could be
self serving to say that in retrospect, but it seems

(50:26):
like getting the rhythm section together first and having sort
of a mission to do this. Uh, it was such
an important, uh keystone for the band. So I agree.
And also, like I said earlier, I think Tina is
just a beast of a bass player. She's the pulse
of the band. I mean, bringing just funk down to
that that CBGBs seen like a blast of like the

(50:46):
famous flames in Parliament. I just think she's the best.
I love her. Her minimalism mixed with funk. I think
is so unique to her. Yeah, David Byrne making her
try it all those times, that's lame, dude. You should
have been sent her feet man, that she was in
your band. I think when we think about the Talking
Heads together, you know, this is an argument I think

(51:07):
you could make for like a lot of the sort
of like inner band rivalries that we've talked about in
this show, which is that it's really like two halves
of the same hole. That the band as it worked
would not be as successful or as great if you
didn't have these people coming together. And I think that
speaks to you know, like when you look at the
careers that these musicians have had outside of Talking Heads

(51:29):
you know, as beloved as David Burns, and like you know,
you mentioned American Utopia that was a big hit on Broadway.
That is drawing a lot on his Talking Heads material,
and like he's put out like good solo records. But
like I know, like when I saw him live about
ten years ago, he would play a solo song and
it was like very nice and people would enjoy it.
Then he play a Talking Head song and it was

(51:51):
like someone let the theater on fire, you know, it
was the contrast could not be anymore telling. And these
musicians just did not achieve separately what they were able
to do together. And I think that really says it all. Yeah,
I mean, at the risk of sound and reductive. I
think about when Christentina did Tom Tom Club, which was,
you know, quotes merely popular, and David was doing the

(52:14):
sort of high falutant fine art of Katherine Wheel. I
think putting that together, the sort of fine art and
the genius level of his song craft with these elements,
these dance elements that did make it popular, I think
that was was the alchemy there, right exactly. Yeah, I
just put it together, put genius of love with like
some cool like you know cut and paste lyrics, you

(52:35):
know from David Byrne, that would have been amazing. Well,
you know, Jordan have to tell you that I feel
really lucky to be host of the show. Sometimes I
have a breakdown and I wonder, this is not my
beautiful show, this is not my beautiful co host. How
did I get here? How did I get here? But this,
this being on the show and talking about these things
with you, It's truly a once in a lifetime experience

(52:56):
for me. So thank you for talking about this with me,
and thank you all for listening to this episode of Rivals.
We will be back with more beefs and feuds and
long simmering resentments next week. Rivals is a production of
I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn ty Toone

(53:17):
and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chicon and
Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stand. I'm Jordan's
runt Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,
please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast
for My heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
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