Dr. Ellen Ochoa: First Latina in Space and Former Head of NASA’s Johnson Space Center

When this former astronaut was growing up, there were few women-in-space role models for her to follow. In this reprise episode, Dr. Ochoa reveals how her excellence in math and science led her to a job at NASA, four space flights, and eventually becoming director of the Johnson Space Center.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
During that eight and a half minutes, the acceleration force
changes quite a bit, where at three gs, so it
feels like someone that weighs three times as much as
you is sitting on your chest. And then at eight
and a half minutes into the fight, the engine's cut
off and you're in zero gravity and it's a very
traumatic transition, you know, where all of a sudden things

(00:27):
start floating up and including your your arms. It's just
very dramatic. At that point, that's former astronaut Dr Ellen Ochoa,
who became the first Latina in space. She's describing the
intense feelings of liftoff and it's a moment she knows

(00:48):
well from both sides of the console because Dr Ochoa
also served as director of NASA's Johnson's Space Center. I'm
a land ververe In. This is Seneca's Women. You here.
We are bringing you one hundred of the world's most
inspiring and history making women. You need to hear. Dr

(01:09):
Ochoa's love of science has taken her to the heights literally,
but it wasn't always an easy trip. When she was
a girl, there were no women astronauts to model herself after,
and when she was in college pursuing advanced degrees. Some
professors openly tried to discourage her from that path. She persevered,

(01:32):
of course, and went on to become the first Hispanic
person to run the Johnson Space Center, the hub of
America's human space flight program. Listen and learn White. Dr
Ellen Ochoa is one of Seneca's one hundred women to hear.
I'm so thrilled to be here today with Dr Ellen Ochoa.

(01:55):
She was the first Latina in space. She's flown four
times hims in space and logged over a thousand hours
in orbit. What a record, Dr Ochoa. It's such a
pleasure to have you with us. Dr Choa, you became
the first Latina astronaut in You spent nine days aboard

(02:17):
the Space Shuttle Discovery, which we all remember so well.
And I've often wondered watching a lift off, being as
nervous in the countdown as probably anybody watching. What's it like?
What's it like to lift off? What's the experience like
in space? I would imagine your training tries to prepare

(02:40):
you for just about any eventuality, And I wonder when
you were orbiting did anything surprise you on your voyages? Well,
you're right, it is just an amazing experience, really different
than anything else. And the launch itself, which is just
the first eight and a half minutes of the flight,
is something that we spent a lot of time training

(03:02):
for because it's so dynamic, and that is a period
of time when a lot of things might go wrong
and we have to be prepared for it. Um during
that eight and a half minutes, the acceleration force changes
quite a bit. Um For probably about two and a
half minutes of it, we're at three gs, so it
feels like someone that weighs three times as much as

(03:24):
you is sitting on your chest, So it can make
a little bit hard to breathe, or a little bit
hard to reach up if you had had to move
a switch or something like that. But even the first
two and a half minutes, the solid rocket motors are
firing and they have quite a bit of vibration, and
so then when they separate away, not only does that

(03:47):
vibration go away, but you go back down to just
a little over one g. At that point, and I
remember that it felt like we had just stopped, which
seemed like a really bad thing in the middle of
a launch, but it was really just all that sation
of acceleration and the vibration went away, and then the
liquid engines on the orbiter itself kept us running um

(04:10):
and accelerated its back up to three g's again and
then um. At eight and a half minutes into the flight,
the engines cut off and you're in zero gravity and
it's a very traumatic, uh transition, you know, where all
of a sudden, you know, things start floating up and
including your your arms and uh so, uh it's just

(04:32):
a very dramatic at that point. And then you you know,
there's a lot to do, but you settle in. And
one of the things that you know was obviously, uh,
the impetus for me really wanting to do this was
because we were up there to do things that benefited
people on Earth. On my first two flights, we were
studying the Earth's atmosphere and particularly the issue of ozone

(04:56):
hole and the ozone depletion, and I was in charge
of the science experiments on my shift, and then my
third and fourth flights were part of building the International
Space Station, which is this amazing laboratory in space. We've
had astronauts and cause of anots up there continuously for

(05:16):
over twenty years now involved in We've done actually thousands
of different kinds of science and technology, development, research and activities,
and over a hundred countries have been involved in some way.
So really just an amazing project to be part of.
The two big things that, of course, are are really

(05:40):
so different are the fact that you're working in a
zero gravity environment or as we call it, micro gravity
because it's maybe not quite zero, but you know, for
all intents and purposes, you know, you're floating the whole time.
Everything that you're dealing with that isn't you know, strapped
down is floating as well, so you just have to
get used to it. Some things are easier, things are harder. Obviously,

(06:02):
moving a heavy piece of equipment is a lot easier,
uh in space when it's floating as well. Um, but
you really have to keep track of everything that you're
working with so it doesn't float away and get lost.
And then the second big thing is is just the
view of the Earth, which is just incredible. We orbit
the Earth every hour and a half, so you're seeing,

(06:22):
you know, all parts of the globe over and over again,
both in daylight and nighttime, and over my four flights
I got to see it in different seasons as well,
and I just never get tired of that. Oh, I
can just imagine in your description is so vivid when
you look down and see planet Earth. Do you have

(06:43):
that sense of how small and vulnerable we are and
how precious our planet is to be taken care of.
So I would on my first flight in particular, I
mentioned we were studying the Earth's atmosphere, and we actually
needed to be up on the flight deck and videotape
every sunrise and every sunset. And this was part of

(07:04):
a science experiment, uh that was actually using the sun
during these points in time to as a light source
to measure constituents in the atmosphere. So I would look
out and I would see this very very thin atmosphere,
you know, across the limb of the Earth, and just
thinking about how that was the only thing keeping us alive.

(07:28):
If we didn't have that atmosphere, none of us would
be there on Earth. And it really did make life
seem fragile um and very precious. And of course as
you look down on the Earth, you you know, we
crossed the United States in ten minutes um. You just
you don't see the kinds of boundaries and divisions that

(07:50):
humans have artificially put up all over the Earth, and
it doesn't make you feel much more in tune with
the planet as a whole. Absolutely, that's such a beautiful
reflection and something, um, I think so profound for all
of us to try and grasp and understand. Let's start

(08:12):
from the beginning. When did you know you wanted to
become an astronaut? Was there something in your childhood or
upbringing that made you want to pursue a career in space. Well,
I was eleven when the Apollo eleven astronauts landed on
the Moon, and of course I was following along. I mean,
the whole country was actually really the whole world. It

(08:34):
was such an amazing accomplishment. But you know, there were
no women astronauts at the time, and um, really, any
time you heard about NASA at all, you you really
didn't see any women or really any minorities. Um and
I just it never occurred to me at that time,
and it wouldn't occurred to anybody else to ask an
eleven year old girl if that was something she wanted

(08:56):
to grow up and do. So I certainly wasn't headed
forward at that time. I uh, in high school, probably
my favorite subjects were music and my literature classes, but
also math. I always liked math and did well. And
as I went to college, I hadn't quite decided what
I wanted to do, but I continued in music and

(09:17):
I continued in math. And it was really the math
that took me towards the science, because I wanted to
understand how you use that math, you know, in practical
ways to to to solve problems, and uh, you know,
just of course, even still, there were very few women
in math, science and engineering fields, and I ended up

(09:40):
talking to a couple of professors. I was going to
San Diego State Universities was our local university, and living
at home, and uh, I talked to a professor in
the electrical engineering department and just told him I was
interested in finding out more about the subject and you know,
thinking of trying to head more in a technical field
like that. And he was clearly not interested in having

(10:03):
me in his department. Uh. He said, you know, well,
we had a women come through here once, but you know,
it's a it's a really difficult course of study, and
I just really don't know that it's something that you'd
be interested in, which was ironic because I had set
up the meeting to find out more about it. But
you know, fortunately I got quite a different reception from

(10:26):
the physics professor that I talked to. He he seemed
excited that I was interested in learning about physics. He
told me about various different careers that people could have
when they studied physics, which was hugely important to me
because I didn't know any scientists or engineers, and I
really couldn't picture on my own what you did with
a physics degree. And and then he said, well, tell

(10:48):
me a little bit about your math background. And I said, well,
I'm finishing up the Calculus series now, and I you know,
I have the top grade in the class. And he said, well,
that's fantastic because that's the lang page of physics, and
if you started into the physics series next semester, you'd
be able to concentrate on the concepts because you already
know the language and most of the students in the

(11:10):
class will be learning them. Simultaneously said I think you
do really well. And uh, you know, I often tell
that story when I'm talking to students and others, first
of all, to impress on them how important what you
say to people. UM. And then also to just note,
you know, the times that I have been discouraged in

(11:33):
my life are generally from people who don't know me
at all, right, they don't know what I can bring
hard work, intelligence, you know, dedication interest. UM. Whereas the
people that have encouraged me in general throughout my life, UM,
starting with my mom, but certainly with a lot of
teachers and professors and supervisors. UM. You know, they got

(11:57):
to know me, and they were encouraging me and even
pushing me at times when I was necessarily even thinking
of the next step. So, UM, you've got to find
those people that that support you and that know you
and understand the important qualities um, that you can bring. Absolutely,
and what an important lesson even to convey to those

(12:19):
who are in a position. You know. I keep thinking
of what Professor put down must have been like for
you listening to him and UM, so discouraging. Uh. And
then how wonderful your physics professor had a different, very
helpful view. Were there any particular obstacles that you had
to overcome besides what you mentioned about some people not

(12:41):
being particularly encouraging. Were there other barriers in your path
that made it a difficult way to go forward. Well,
I think unfortunately at every step I did have people
that supported me. But of course I I continue to
run into people who, you know, it just didn't see
me someone like me as a scientist or engineer. UM.

(13:03):
I know, for example, I went off to Stanford for
graduate school and there was a particular professor I was
interested in working with, and I did end up becoming
his graduate student, UM, joining his research group, and he
was fantastic um Dr Joe Goodman, and to this day
I'm in touch with him, and I also had a
wonderful associate advisor. UM. But just to get into the

(13:28):
PhD program, you have to pass the test um to
be admitted into the program. And the way it was
done in the Electrical Engineering department at Stanford was each
student had ten different UM sessions one on one with
ten different professors, twelve minutes each, and those professors could

(13:51):
ask any question they wanted. UM. But it's it's a
format that I'm sure as we all look back now, UM,
it's kind of a terrible or matt if particularly if
you're trying to address either unconscious bias or in this case,
conscious bias. Because a friend of mine. UM. The week
before this test heard one of the professors in the

(14:13):
department telling another one, well, I've never passed a woman
on this test, and I never will. They don't belong
in our department. And when you're one on one, nothing written,
it's all oral. You might write something on a whiteboard,
but then it gets erased at the end of your session.
It's pretty easy, um, you know, for someone to mark
whatever score that they want and uh, you know, there's

(14:36):
no way to contest or back that up. Um. Fortunately
this professor wasn't one of the one once that one
of the ones that I talked to. Uh, but it
made me, It just startled me, and it made me think, well,
how many professors that I might talk to during this
test might have the same view. I just uh, you know,

(14:57):
it just really caught me off it although I probably
should have realized that, certainly there were people that thought that.
But in any case, I did get through that test,
and as I said, I was really fortunate to have
great advisors who helped me along the way. UM. But
I will say, you know, just getting a PhD Uh,

(15:18):
it's a test of perseverance. Uh. And so certainly there
were times along the way when my research wasn't going
very well, and I I would think, you know, maybe
there's something easier that I could do where where I
maybe um more assured of actually graduating and getting an
advanced degree. But I stuck with it, and um, you know,

(15:41):
had opportunities then in uh national labs and in a
nasive research position before I was selected as an astronaut.
And I would probably just say the main obstacle there
was that thousands of other people who were applying as well.
I you know, when I decided to apply, um, I
just thought, well, there's no way NASA is ever going

(16:03):
to find my application amongst the thousands that come in,
But you know, I'll go ahead and do it anyway,
just to say that I did well. Perseverance clearly paid off.
And obviously you're not just pioneering in the field, but
someone who has enormous talent, skills and abilities to have
gotten through all of those gauntlets. Because clearly, just listening

(16:26):
to you, lesser folks may have bailed out a lot earlier,
it sounds like it's it's really rather herculean to overcome
some of that senecas one hundred women to hear will
be back after the short break. Now, you were the

(16:51):
first Hispanic director and second female director at NASA's Johnson
Space Center, which we all hear so much about such
a famous place. What did that involve? It seems like
that too must have been just an enormous challenge. Did
you come in with a vision for the space center
or how did your work there evolve? It was a

(17:13):
challenge but also a huge privilege because we just have
this amazing team at Johnson's Space Center. You know, it's
the home of human space flight for the country. Um Uh,
you know, I just remember the first time I ever
stepped foot on Johnson Space Center, which was the first
time I got to interview for the astronaut program, and

(17:33):
it just almost felt like hallowed ground, right because of
of the history there. Uh. So, you know, I think
for any leader, um, you know, you have two main goals.
Accomplished the mission and take care of your people, and
you have to do that in the context of what
is going on at the time that you're director. And

(17:53):
so um I became director very end of the beginning
of We've finished assembling the International Space Station. So in
that realm our challenge was to essentially make it as
productive as possible while keeping it safe for our astronauts,
and really focus on, you know, how much science and

(18:16):
technology that we could accomplish, what we could get into space,
what we could test and um, and really ramping up
in that way. Um. But I would say that the
biggest context was there were all these new players in
human space flight, right Um. We had SpaceX developing some capabilities,
and there were a number of other companies working on

(18:38):
some capabilities, including Blue Origin, and so we really had
to think about how do we evolve so that we
have our role which will be unique going forward in
human space flight, and we're able to accommodate these new
partners and sort of you know, marry up the best

(19:01):
of all of these partners so that we can move
forward with the exploration of space. And eventually we knew
that really lower thorbit would would probably be essentially the
purview of commercial companies as NASA push forward into space
to the lunar vicinity and onto Mars. So a lot
of it was I started up essentially a change management

(19:24):
initiative called it j C two point oh um. But
it was important to think of it that way because
it wasn't about, you know, throwing out all the experience
that we gained. It was about building on it and
also embracing new ways of doing business. So a big
part of what I tried to do was work with

(19:44):
my management team, but also really with every single person
that worked at the Johnson Space Center about you know,
how do we uh incorporate new technology, some of which
we developed, but a lot of which may be developed
outside our boundaries. How do we develop new partnerships, How

(20:05):
do we incorporate new ways of thinking into how we
do our business so that ten years from now, twenty
years from now, we're still leading human space flight, but
we have this amazing group of partners that we are
working in concert with, And so that was really what
I focused on during my time as director. I know

(20:26):
that you're also a very forceful advocate for getting more
Latinas into STEM fields. It seems like forever we're talking
about the need for more girls and women to embrace
the STEM fields. Why is this so important important to you?
And do women bring anything special to the field, to
science and to tech. Well, I think it's important to

(20:49):
not just to be personally, but to NASA, to the country,
to get people into STEM who have traditionally been a
very underrepresented So that would include women, but it includes
a lot of underrepresented groups as well. Um you know, uh, Latinos, Blacks,
members of some of the indigenous groups. Um, they you know,

(21:12):
you just don't didn't and still don't to the extent
anywhere near the extent to which they exist in our population.
See them going into Stamfield. So we're missing out because
you know, talent is everywhere across all demographics and all
geographic regions. Talent is everywhere. Um. As director of Johnson

(21:33):
Space Center, I want to attract the best minds and
we're not going to be doing that if we're sort
of limited, um in in who we are reaching out to,
who we're bringing in, and then who were developing once
they come in. And of course there's been lots of
research over the last particularly last couple of decades or
so about when you have people with a diversity of

(21:57):
backgrounds and experiences and thought assesses, um, particularly as you're
trying to solve problems or think about new ways of
doing things. You're going to have better results when you
when you do have a diverse team. And I wanted
to make sure that we took advantage of that and
that we did have diverse teams because we certainly have
lots of incredibly interesting and difficult challenges when you think

(22:21):
about human spaceflight, and of course for my own experience, UM,
you know, I know how it feels to sort of
be discounted or ignored, um, you know, talked over in meetings.
So a lot of my focus as well was just
uh working on making our environment at Johnson Space and

(22:42):
Er even more inclusive where everybody, no matter who they were,
would feel respected and feel valued, UM, I would feel
open to bringing their ideas, speaking up, asking questions. And
this wasn't only important for innovation and for solving problems,
but it's incredibly important for safety, as you can imagine,

(23:04):
because we're trying to keep people safe every moment of
every day who are living in a very remote and
hazardous environment. And if someone doesn't feel like they're going
to be listened to, we may miss out on a comment, um,
some information, a question that could directly affect the safety
of our astronauts or our space assets. So really imperative

(23:28):
that we have a very welcoming environment at Johnson Space Center.
You know, it's always struck me watching the news when
there's been a breakthrough or something happens in space just
as it was planned too. There seems to be an
amazing spree decre when the camera flashes on the Johnson
Space set. It just it has always struck me as

(23:52):
people involved together collegially in pulling off something remarkable. You know,
That's one of the things I loved about working at
NASA and and of course specifically at Johnson Space Center
was we are a team and and we have a
joint mission, and people are so dedicated to that mission. Um,

(24:15):
they work hard. Uh, you know, they will do whatever
it takes to help make that mission successful. And you know,
then we when we do accomplish things, uh, you know,
we get to celebrate together. And a big part of
really what I wanted to do is make sure that
every single person um at Johnson Space Center could could

(24:35):
take pride and could celebrate in those successes. And you know,
often you see people in mission control and of course
they're they're sort of often the ones that sort of
at the tip of the sphere along with the crew
in making that happen. But you know, I wanted to
make sure that our folks who worked in the UM
financial office, and and in the procurement office, and in

(24:56):
human resources, and there are legal offices realize how important
their roles were as well. You need all of that
to be successful. And that was one of the things
I enjoyed most about being Center director was you know,
really seeing how all the parts come together to make
it happen and such a profound lesson really important. You know,

(25:17):
you've been talking some about the diversity advantage and in
your own life, as you have already talked about women
were barred from becoming astronauts. Certainly when you saw the
landing on the Moon that was the case. But NASA
now was talking about putting the first woman on the moon.
Is that true? And have we made enough progress in

(25:40):
this realm? What is what what's left to be done? Well?
Certainly during the thirty years I was at NASA, there
was a lot of progress in terms of women, UM
and uh AT definitely some in terms of other represented
groups as well. UM. I will have to say my
very first job at NASA, which was as a research

(26:02):
engineer a couple of years before I was selected as
an astronaut. Even in that position I saw more women
than I had seen in my previous job, or in
graduate school or even in undergrad because of the fields
that I was in. So NASA had already started, um,
sort of making an effort to attract and employ a

(26:26):
diversity of people, maybe earlier than a lot of companies
had done at that time. And NASA continued to make
progress during the third years that I was there, so UM.
In fact, one of my astronaut classmates, a Lean Collins,
was the first woman to command a Space Shuttle mission.
And then of course we saw women commanding the International

(26:48):
Space Station and at Johnson Space Center, not only being
flight directors, but the chief of the Flight Director office
right now as a woman. UM. And during my tenure,
the head of our the director of Engineering, which is
the largest group that we have at Johnson Space Center,
very very talented women engineer. UM. We there's a couple

(27:11):
of other centers now that have women center directors and
UM and in fact, right now the head of all
of Human Spacefline at NASA, which is a position at
NASA Headquarters, is headed by a woman for the first time.
So so you're you're you know, you're seeing a lot
of progress in many areas but uh, you know, you

(27:32):
still don't see women in in the stem workforce to
the extent that they exist in the population. And the
fact that you kind of need to talk about we're
going to put the first woman on the moon or
we have the first space walk with two women, um,
just shows that we're still building up to that point
where it's no longer a first, where it's routine and

(27:55):
women are contributing in the same way as men, you know,
And we all long for the days when this conversation
about being the first is no longer necessary and we
are all in this together in the same way, in
a level playing field. But it does matter so much,
particularly to aspiring girls and women, to see somebody doing

(28:16):
these things. Who is you know, a woman, because if
you don't see it, you don't think it's possible. And
you've broken ground in so many ways, and I'm sure
provided so much inspiration. We're almost out of time, and
I just want to ask you. This has been a
difficult time for our country, for the world in many ways,

(28:37):
but especially given the pandemic and the toll it's taken.
I wonder, in times like these, what gives you hope?
You've had such an extraordinary career that continues obviously, But
are there reflections about what keeps you going and what
gives you hope even in times that may not be
the most auspicious. Oh. Absolutely. UM. You know, maybe I'll

(29:00):
just mention a couple the way, uh, we were able
to develop a vaccine so quickly, and that built on
decades of research, you know, into actually how to replicate
genetic material, and how you can understand the genetic code
of a new virus, and how you can actually develop

(29:24):
a vaccine in a new and different way than we
ever had before with this messenger our name. And it's
a godsend. And I'm so thrilled and thankful to be
fully vaccinated at this point. UM. And the other thing
I'll mention is I'll go back to space, which is
over the last year. UM. Some of the most exciting
moments for me have been seeing some of the milestones

(29:47):
in space. UM, some of which I got to work
on when I was still at NASA. For example, UM,
the Crew Dragon vehicle by SpaceX taking NASA astronauts to
and from the International Space Station. UM, that was a
service that we were working towards. Uh. Certainly the whole
time I was at Johnson Space Center. UM, and moving forward,

(30:10):
going back to the Moon with the Artemis program. You
already talked a little bit about it. The one that's
going to be putting the first woman on the Moon.
Has been making various different milestones over the last year,
including UM a big firing of all the all the
test firing of all the engines U just in the
last month or two, and then of course in space

(30:32):
science with Mars Perseverance UH launched and then landed on
on Mars, and just more recently the lights of the
helicopter Ingenuity. UM. Those were all UH approved and in
work when I was still at NASA and in meetings
at NASA headquarters, and to see them actually happened and
be so successful and so exciting, and really so many

(30:55):
people following along, I've just loved that. Well, thank you
so much. I think we could go on talking for
much of the day because it's so illuminating to listen
to you. It's inspiring, it's informative. I feel like, certainly
speaking for myself, but I'm sure for many of our listeners,
we feel like we had a ride into space with you,

(31:18):
and that's something truly special. Thank you so much for
what you have done for our country and what you've achieved,
and for the profound reflections you've left with us today.
Thank you so much. Thank you. It's a pleasure talking
with you today. Talk about aiming high and making it.

(31:41):
Here are three things I took away from that conversation. First,
for any of us to succeed, we need to surround
ourselves with people who believe in us. While some of
Dr od show US college professors tried to discourage her
from pursuit of the sciences, others acted as guides and mentors.
As Dr Chowa says, you've got to find those people

(32:04):
who support you and that understand the important qualities you
bring to the table. Second, as we've heard before, diversity
is crucial to progress. Diversity enhances innovation and problem solving,
but it's also a question of safety, says Dr Choa.

(32:25):
When you're working to keep astronauts safe in a hazardous environment,
she says, you need to ensure that all vital information
from all voices is heard. Finally, let's take hope from
the progress that's been made in bringing women into the
sciences and into the space program, and let's look forward

(32:47):
to that day in the not too distant future, when
we'll see the first woman on the moon. Tune in
next time to hear about our next featured woman and
discover why she's one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Year.
Seneca's one hundred Women To Hear is a collaboration between
the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with

(33:10):
support from founding partner PNG. Have a Great Day,