September 8, 2023 • 50 mins
Sandra presents a chat with not one but two New York Times best-selling authors!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Thanks for choosing the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost Day
and Paranormal Podcast Network. Your quest for podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained ends here. We invite you to enjoy
all our shows we have on this network, and right now,
let's start with Chase of the Afterlife with Santra channaplay.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:42):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. Hi.
I'm Sandra Champlain. For over twenty five years, I've been
on a journey to prove the existence of life after death.
Each episode, we'll discuss the reasons we now know that
(01:03):
our loved ones have survived physical debt, and so will we.
Welcome to Shades of the Afterlife. I had an extraordinary
opportunity this past week. I got to interview the great
doctor Raymond Moody and co author Paul Perry on a
(01:24):
brand new book, and depending on when you're listening, it
may already be out. The book is titled Proof of
Life After Life, Seven Reasons to Believe there is an Afterlife.
The entire recording is well over an hour, so if
you would like to watch the full video interview, just
(01:48):
go to We Don't Die dot com and click on
the radio show page. Today, I want to include some
of the clips from that magnificent convertation and read to
you a little bit about what's in the book. They
were kind enough to send me a copy before it
(02:10):
gets out to the public. This is one of those
interviews that I actually learned some new things about life
after death, and I think you will too. So let
me tell you about the guys you are going to
hear from. First of all, doctor Raymond Moody and Paul
Perry are both longtime friends, both New York Times bestselling
(02:32):
authors with fifty years of investigating life after death. Doctor
Raymond Moody is the leading authority on the near death experience,
a phrase he coined back in the late seventies. His
groundbreaking work Life After Life completely changed the way we
viewed death and dying and has sold more than thirteen
(02:54):
million copies. Paul Perry is the co author of five
New York Times Best line including The Light Beyond with
Doctor Moody, Saved by the Light with Daniel Brinkley, and
Evidence of the Afterlife with doctor Jeffrey Long. He has
co written a dozen books on near death experiences, four
(03:15):
of them with doctor Moody, and directed two popular documentary
films on the subject. You can visit doctor Moody's website
at Life Afterlife dot com, and you can see all
that Paul Perry has done at Paul Perryproductions dot com.
So today we'll be talking about their book Proof of
(03:37):
Life after Life, Seven Reasons to Believe there is an Afterlife.
I first asked these two gentlemen how they met each other.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Hi, there, Helle, Thank you so much for this invitation.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I'm excited not just to share you, but it's
two for the price of one today, two wonderful gentlemen
and me lucky am I? How did you two first meet?
If I can ask that question?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Oh, that was interesting. Raymond was working on a book
at the time. Was a working title was Light Beyond.
That's what it ended up being called. And I was
editing a major health magazine in New York called American Health.
And my agent took me out to lunch one day
and he said, would you mind giving doctor Raymond Moody
(04:26):
a hand and writing a book? And I said, I
don't even know who doctor Moody is. And he said, really,
he named the near death experience and defined it. And
I said, I don't know what a near death experience is.
And so nat our agent says, is an abrupt guy.
And he says, I can't believe it. You're editing a
(04:47):
major health magazine. You're not smart enough to know what
a near death experience is. You need to go meet
Raymond Moody and study this whole field. And so that's
what I did. I went to Atlanta. Raymond was living
in Carrollton at the time, Georgia, and we talked about
the book The Light Beyond. We hit it off right away,
(05:07):
and one thing leads to another, and since now we've
written this is our sixth book together. Proof of Life
After Life is our sixth book. And one book always
leads to a question, and the question that needs to
be answered. And so that's what we do. We'll write
a book and all of a sudden, they'll be with
the light beyond. It was, see, there's nothing in this
(05:29):
book about children and near death experiences. And Raymond said, well,
you know, there's not much research being done on it.
But he directed me to Melvin Morris and Seattle and
I went to see Melvin and we wrote. We wrote
four books on children and Near death Experiences and other
aspects of the near death experience, and three of those
(05:50):
were New York Times bestsellers. And then it would go
on and on. We'd have question after question, book after book,
and that's what we did from that point to now
is answer these questions.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Incredible, doctor Moody, you remember when you met Paul.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I certainly do. And you know, Paul and I think
we have a great, you know, working team here because
I just tell you the truth. All the people who
know me very well will tell you it's true. But
in fact, I am such a bore and the way
I think, oh yes, all right, listen. I was a
(06:29):
professor of philosophy and logic, and my lifelong thing since
the age of eighteen is ancient Greek philosophy. Well, there's
a bestseller for you, right. So what I'm getting at
is This is not most people's fair, but it's how
I got interested in this from Plato studied this, and
(06:54):
the early Greek philosophers knew about these things. That's how
I found about it. Long But you know, a philosopher
is going to be the right person to present some
of this information to the average person, I think, and
so I tend to talk in abstractions and put the
(07:14):
information in that context. Whereas Paul could say, hey, just
a minute here, professor, you know that doesn't make any
sense to what And together we come up with the
way I think to present information that is sometimes very
you know, complex, hopefully in a way that people will't
(07:34):
relate to it and benefit from it.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
From there, Raymond is one of the probably the most
exciting and interesting person I know, and for reasons just
stated he knows everything.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Oh no, but I know enough to know I don't
know hardly any of that is the right I am.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
You know, he knows nothing about the Yankees or the
LA Dodgers.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
No. I do know about the professional wrestling, though that's true.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
That's another subject.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Though we need to follow our passions, right. We can't
talk about the ass but.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
This topic that you're interested in Sandra and Paul and
I are interested in It's been my experience beginning at
age eighteen, actually that when people reach a certain age,
and especially so I think that people have been so
successful that they've spent their lifetime focusing on their business
(08:35):
or the businesy work, you know, just focusing on that
side of life. When they reach a certain age, say fifties, sixties, seventies,
they begin to wake up to this question of life
after death, which has been put aside or thought of
as trivial or you know, it doesn't have or and
(08:57):
then they just automatically wake up to it. By the way,
that reason I found out about that at age eighteen
was I read it at my hero Plato, my first
philosophy class in September of sixty two. Reading the first
few pages of Plato's Republic, I decided then there to
shift from astronomy, which is why I went there to
(09:21):
study immediately to philosophy. Because this why is Plato's work
still in print at any store twenty three hundred years
People shouldn't ask themselves that well, number one, because it
is amazing, terrific stuff, and this Republic is about, in
(09:43):
the end, a near death experience. It starts with this
old guy who's been very successful in life, he says,
and Socrates is then about twenty meets the old guy says,
you know, Kevalos, what's it like from your point of view? Oh,
Kevlo says, I've been very successful when my business made
a lot of money. I've spent all time on my business,
(10:05):
and now here I am. I saw all those stories
I heard about about the afterlife when I was a kid,
coming back in these people developed a sense of urgency.
Then in a later Plato dialogue I read that same
semester he talked about the importance of this question of
life after death. So that's how I got into this,
(10:30):
and it's it came from Greek philosophy, where it was
a big point of study. And yet of course all
the other things too that people are concerned about. Because
after I got my PhD in philosophy, I was a
philosophy professor. I went into psychiatry, with my specific interest
(10:50):
in it being why people kill people from a law
enforcement family, wrote in a cop card. When I was
a kid, I mean my brother a shaf, my two uncles, Chieficale,
two cousins. I mean my dad worked for the DEA
as a surgeon for this drug stuff, and you see
(11:13):
how it is, you know. So to me, this big question,
which I studied from early on is why in the
world would somebody kill somebody? So I studied that in psychiatry,
and that worked in a unit for the criminally in
saying it was full of these people that you read
about in the National Enquirer was my daily work. And
(11:39):
so through all of this I have developed I think
a great piece in one respect with respect to the
question of life after death, and not through a logical
process exactly, because there's great logical difficulties in trying to
(11:59):
prove an after life, but thinking it through myself, I
just give up, you know. To me it looks like, yeah,
there's a life after death, as counterintuitive is it still
seems to me, and having no template from it, but
always debating with myself about it. It's this thing about
(12:21):
oxygen deprivation to the brain. I'm sorry, that's beloney, But
people have the same experience identically who are not themselves
ill or injured are going through our resuscitation, but rather
who are there in the presence of somebody who is dying.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
This is a good time to take our break and
then we'll get back. What doctor Moody's starting to talk
about is the shared death experience. I wanted to play
all that to so you've got a little flavor for
who these gentlemen are. They've been at this a long time,
So let's go to the break and be back. You're
listening to Shades of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and
(13:04):
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Welcome back to
(13:27):
Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain and we're listening
to Paul Perry and the world famous doctor Raymond Moody
talking about their brand new book, Proof of Life After Life,
Seven Reasons to Believe there is an afterlife, and I'll
give you a little sneak preview. Their reasons are all
(13:48):
in the realm of this shared death experience. So let's
listen to doctor Moody talk about the shared death experience.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's a very frequent occurrence that people standing around say
things like, oh, as grandma was dying, I myself, I
lift it out of my body. I started going towards
this light with my grandma, where people say, as Grandma
was dying, apparitions of the dying person's loved ones come
in the room, people see that, the whole room fills
(14:18):
with light. And most strikingly to me that in many
cases I've studied over the years, the by then at
the death of someone else that as the person's dying
will themselves empathically co participate in the dying life review
(14:41):
of the person there. And this to me is startling
information and it makes me trying to come up with
some reason that I could get myself recused from my
life review, because you know, the idea of his self
is enough to scare to worry about. But you know,
the idea of having a spectator there these people past
(15:04):
the popcorn. But it happens. It happens not just to
people as I would have thought, who are intimate and
know the person well. But in one case, a medical
doctors don't of sin is dying patients life review, who
had never even laid his eyes on the patient force
just called to the er.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Two.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So what I'm talking about is it something odd is
going on there that does not fit into the view
of reality that we're pretty much forced intent, you know,
in everyday life. So but the older you get the
more you're a medical to explore these things. I noticed
(15:46):
that the older I get, the more of my friends
through my agent, had some kind of experience in their life,
which is like stepping over into some other realm of existence.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
See.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I have a lot of friends who are medical doctors
whose medical judgment I would trust one hundred percent if
something happened to me. And those same friends of mine
tell me that, yeah, they had this near death experience
and not only was it real, but it was more
real than this ordinary reality. And you know the incredible
(16:24):
things that happen if you know the story probably of
Anthony Chikori and PhD in physiology in the professor of
orthopedic surgery at NYU, who had a profound death experience
and was struck in that had by a bolt of lightning,
had a cardiac rest and was it a family reunion,
(16:46):
was able to look all in, saw his relatives who
were there at the reunion at the resort center, even
though he was apparently dead, and you know, Anthony said,
you know, this is more real. Anthony, who had never
had any interest in music, started getting fascinated by the piano,
(17:08):
started having dreams in which he was playing a piano
or concert stage playing the same music, learned how to
play the piano and transcribe this music, and is now,
in addition to being a renowned orthopedic surgeon, as a
(17:29):
famed concert pianist too. I mean, see, things like that
don't make any sense if this world is as we
think by common sense that it is constituted. So see,
And I could go on with a you know, a
dozen other physicians that same story, but I give up.
(17:52):
I can't figure out how I could reconcile the fact
that I would put my help myself in these dogs hands,
you know, in a life or death situation, with the
fact that they all tell me that this thing is
more real than any reality that I've experienced.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I think, as human beings were hardwired not to believe.
Maybe it's to be tied in with the game of life.
I'm not hearing you though. I've experienced miracles myself, but
I wake up in the morning thinking is this all real?
You know?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I think that everybody's an experienced some kind of a
miracle and they don't recognize it or they don't want
to think about it. And when you start to mention,
for instance, with shared death experiences, which is what this
book is about. If you start to talk to people
about what you're working on, they almost everybody will say, well,
I've had an experience like that, and I didn't talk
(18:49):
about it because I thought people would think I was wacky,
or I just never thought it was an appropriate conversation.
For whatever reason, they don't like to bring it up.
Once you bring it up, that you start to open
up the flower, as it were, and people start to
deliver information that you previously didn't know was out there.
That's how it was with near death experiences, and this
(19:10):
book is vastly different from near death experiences, which your
experiences that take place with the people who are at
the best essentially at the bedside of someone has died,
who's dying, and they share their death experience.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I saw this old manor guy who was in his eighties,
who was a GP for all of his career, and
he was telling me, and this was that the Council
Grove Consciousness seminar that was put on by the Miniature Foundation,
and he was saying that he had this patient he
(19:44):
had had a long time. She was elderly and she
had hypertension and she had what we call corbo vine,
which is a big round art and it's caused by
if the high blood pressure over lumber. Design sometimes just
comes out and looks kind of round from pressure. Is
like a cow heart, and these hearts are very irritable.
(20:09):
This woman, who was I think in her nineties, I'm
pretty sure. He said, they kept going in and her
heart would stop, and then the zapper, she's back. So
the woman just passes away. But this doctor told me
that the friend told him that as her friend was dying,
She says, she herself the friend went out of her
(20:32):
body and was going up right with her friend toward
this light, and she saw the people she recognized as
the friends and relatives of her friend, and all of
them had died. It's all. I mean. I could go
on telling you a hundreds more, one hundred, as many
as you want. Stories like that. This near death experience
(20:54):
is not something that is somehow generated by an oxygen
that bird age deprived brain. But it's going to take
something else than what we have for society to wake
up with that, because this is too threatening people for
many people of of us. Some people can accept that
there's an afterlife, this idea scares a lot of other people,
(21:16):
so we're still going to be stuck for a while.
And this sort of framework is the reality versus the
oxygen deprivation. But you know one thing those folks never
think of is even if you could prove that it
was not oxygen deprivation to the brain, that still wouldn't
(21:37):
prove that it's life.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
You see.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
So in a way, that is all irrelevant because a
certain kind of mind, they've got to have this kind
of framework to process. But when this is going to
come all the loose is when we can step outside
of that framework and look at whole new possibilities about
these near experiences.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What's a precognitive experience?
Speaker 4 (22:03):
These are not all necessarily related to near death experiences.
I think that's the beauty of a shared death experience.
A shared death experience is when someone who is well
shares the death experience of someone who's dying. So in
the case of a precognitive experience, we have a couple
of case studies here people who had loved ones in
(22:23):
China and they were in England and they wake up
in the middle of the night and they see this
person who's in China standing at the foot of their
bed and tells them I've died and I'll miss you,
and then that's the end of the experience. It's later
proven that this person did die at the same time
that they had appeared to this individual. And we have
(22:44):
doctors who have seen their fathers. They've woken up and
they've seen their fathers standing there and the father says,
you know, you better talk to your mother, because I've
spoken to her and she knows that I'm dead. You
better talk to your mother. At the facts, that's precognitive,
it's that kind of an experience. But there's other ones
in here that aren't. They aren't all related to near
(23:07):
death experiences. And I think that's really the power of
this book is that this book takes off from near
death experiences, what's your subjective experiences? In other words, a
person who hasn't as an NDE is the person who
has it, and no one else has had it, no
one else can really experience with the experience. But to
share death experience is when someone shares the experience of
(23:30):
a dying individual. And that's what makes this book very different.
So if you look at things like light, mist and music,
we have once again a number of physicians who in
a hospital have actually seen a light or a mist
leave a person's body as they die. Or we have
people who hear music when someone is dying. They'll be
(23:52):
in the room and they'll hear music, and sometimes there
might be several people in the room with this individual
who hear music, and then several who don't. And that's
one of the puzzles of shared death experiences.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
You were mentioning too earlier, Sandra, about out of body experiences,
which are yes, that is a rather mind boggling part
of near death experiences. They often say they hear the
doctor pronounce them dead or say that they've died or whatever,
but they say, from their point of view, they feel
(24:25):
that they actually leave their physical bodies and they drift up.
Typically in most of the stories I hear, that's in
an operating room or medical facility or whatever. So people
say they can rise up, they see their body down below,
they can see the doctors and nurses working on it,
(24:45):
but their consciousness is separate. And then they say, in
the circumstances, you can understand what the doctor or nurse
or whoever are communicating, but you don't hear their voice.
That you sort of pick up on what they're communicating
by mind. When they try to communicate in turn, that
nobody can hear them kind of dawns on them that
(25:08):
this might be connected with what we call death. And
so with that realization, they say they go through this
passageway into another world.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
This is a great time to sneak in a break,
and we'll be right back with Paul Perry and doctor
Raymond Moody talking about their new book. You're listening to
Shades of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Welcome back to Shades
(25:58):
of the Afterlife. I'm Sam Champlain and you're listening to
a conversation I had with doctor Raymond Boody and Paul
Perry this week on their brand new book called Proof
of Life After Life, Seven Reasons to Believe There isn't
after Life. I feel so grateful that they picked me
for their first interview, and they were kind enough to
(26:21):
send me a copy of the book before it went
out to the public, so there's a high chance that
you're hearing this information before the rest of the world.
The forward of the book is by Eben Alexander, who
wrote of course proof of heaven. I want to tell
you what the seven reasons to believe are. Reason number one,
(26:42):
out of body experiences, Reason number two, precognitive experiences, Reason
number three, the transforming light, Reason number four, terminal lucidity,
Reason number five, spontaneous meat, uses healings and skills, Reason
(27:04):
number six, light missed and music, and reason number seven
the psychomntium. We all like hearing stories about what people experienced,
and this book is filled with stories, but not just
any stories, stories from doctors. Let's continue with Paul Perry
(27:27):
talking about terminal lucidity.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
We had one really incredible story from the nineteen thirties
of a woman who had meningitis as a child and
as a result, was essentially non functional her entire life.
She couldn't speak, she couldn't communicate much of any way
at all. As she was dying, she started singing, and
(27:50):
she started singing a song. She had never communicated, like
I say anything before. She started singing a song, saying
it so beautifully that the medicals staff was weeping and
they were all pouring into her room to hear this
phenomenon take place. And she seemed to have acquired information
she seemed to have acquired knowledge. In her final moments,
(28:12):
she sang, and then shortly thereafter she died. That's all
Senator's terminal lucidity, where someone becomes very lucid at the
point of being terminal.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I was just thinking, there are people too that, whether
it's dementia, there's nothing left, and then there are these bursts.
There can be bursts of they recognize everybody in the room.
And beyond is that all could be tied in with
this time.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Yes, there was one written about in Time magazine where
a doctor wrote about the oncologist and this person he
was talking about had essentially a head full of tumors
and he was just dead. He was essentially living dead.
But at the last moment, when children came into the room,
(29:01):
he popped out of it and he spoke with great
lucidity about how pleased he was to be their father
and what he would like to see continue in the family.
And they thought, he's healed, we can take him home,
and within a few hours he passed away. That's the
story of terminal City. I think it's going to be
one of the most common paranormal experiences.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, you know, Sundra people used to know about this
as just folk knowledge. They called it fay f e.
One I think was if you look into the Oxford
English sctionary, this sort of central definition of that is
a state of extraordinary enhanced consciousness that pretense emminent dath.
(29:49):
And people knew about that when people died at home,
but then people started dying at hospital. But see if anybody,
I mean, I can attest this, you know. I obviously
one of my activities as a medical doctor, a lot
of it had to do with the terminally helps. I
was known for that, and people would call me in
(30:10):
and so on. Anybody who is in that situation for
any period of time, hospice workers or whatever, you're going
to see this. And the trouble is when you describe it,
it's like you can nobody can believe it. I know
the description, but all right, here is the description. It's
like as a person died, they've even been demented on
(30:33):
it is like that, no communication for a long time,
and then as they die here you go hold onto
your hat. They light out, I swear to you, and
it's not the light coming from a light bulb, but
from the sun is coming from inside of them. It's
(30:53):
just this pure light.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
It's full of lightning experience, by the way.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, and people is like they've become completely coherent. It's
like my uncle, as he was dying, went around. I
gave a message to everybody and the family personally. And
yet you know that, you know that if you talk
about this, nobody else who hasn't seen it is even
(31:24):
capable of believing I had. This guy was a well
known on collogist. He was, I guess in his seventies,
and he was telling me this. He said, he had
this patient he had been dealing with for a long time,
and so the patient had died, and so they had
covered the patient up with the sheet. So the doctor
(31:46):
was standing around with the family who he had known
all a long time, and suddenly they saw the twitch
from under the sheet of front. You know what I mean,
he said. So he starts talking to everybody coherrectly, and
then he just sat back. Then, Dad, my friend said,
(32:09):
he said, unless those other people have been there with me,
he said, I would have concluded that I had had
an hallucination. It's just that uncanny when you say it.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Really, I think it's more common than people recognize. Yes,
it's now starting to be included on whatever the medical
records are. There's now, you know, a description on Cermons
description of term elucidity, and it just happened, and now
they're starting to find that it's quite common.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah. Bystanders often say, is what this man flew all
the way from Australia to see me to tell me
about the experience he had with his wife when he's dying.
He was getting ready to go to the store for
a minute, and so he just wanted to come on
their out and be right back. But when he walked
down the room, he said, it was like, oh my god,
(33:06):
she's perking up, and it was like they had a
really heartfelt conversation and he thought she's turning around. So
he went to the store. As you can imagine, when
he came back, she was dead. And I will remember
that look on his face when he told me he
said what it was like. He said, she already had
(33:28):
one foot on the other side, and the mystified look
on his face. It's not something that is easy to
put aside as oxygen deprivation to the brain. I'll tell
you that.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
These experiences are amazing. I mean this. In putting together
this book I feel like I've heard everything and seen everything,
and I discovered that wasn't true. In putting this book together.
One of the things that was very unique to me
is that years ago, if you told her doctor you
were working out a book on near death experiences, many
of them would pooh pooh it. They would deny that
(34:06):
it took place. Now you start to hear stories from physicians.
Many of the stories in this book, we have a
large number of physician stories, and then some of them,
like one that really amazes me is is people who
see a mist coming out of someone who's dying. Because
not only have we spoken to several doctors who has
(34:29):
come out of people who are dying, but the description
of what happens is the same. Is that they'll see
a mist and the mist forms and seems to get
sucked into a tube, are sucked into some hole and
disappeared through there through the ceiling. I mean, the description
is the same, which is good news because it means
(34:51):
that it's it's a legitimate phenomenon. If it repeats certain elements,
it's a legitimate phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I mean, I've got to be honest, I'm saying it
most I mean, I just old that walk was that
it presents itself as a mist to us, because a
mist is a symbol of the unknown or the unknowable.
I guess it's clouds themselves, which we now understood.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You remember in the eighth grade you learned that that
system of classifying the four types the cumulus and the stratus,
and cyrus and nimbus. And that came about in the
eighteen thirties because up to that time, see, the common
sense was that clouds are unknowable because they unintelligible, efemorable,
(35:51):
all changeable, and they were the very symbol people. It
was what the people symbolized unknowability or unintelligibility, that it's unstable.
And because knowledge, by contrast, is something solid and stable,
so the knowledge of the clouds would by definition be
(36:12):
and people were ridiculed. Up in the clouds we say,
you know, and in the clouds we still say those things.
That was something utterly unintelligible and beyond reason and knowledge.
Then this guy named Luke Howard who was a pharmacist
and he traveled in his business back and forth. It's
(36:32):
just interested in this got to watching clouds through the
carriage or where we're drawing them. Then he realized, oh
my god, there's different types of some of them are
big empuffs. So he published this paper from a scientific
society he belonged to, and it created a sensation because,
(36:54):
as you can imagine, anybody who cared to read the
paper and then wanted to walk outside could see was
right right, Because you can all say it for ourselves,
why don't you? And so I think, you know, something
like that has got to happen, because this is so
what in the world are we dealing with? What they
missed coming out of somebody's body when they die.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
I asked these guys if they thought shared death experiences
happen because people are in the present moment. We like
to believe that doctors are in the present moment.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
You do have to have a peaceful mind, a present mind,
but you also a lot have to have a lot
of empathy. I think empathy is a real factor and
all these experiences interesting. People with empathy can be in
a room with someone who's dying and they can lend
their empathy to the person, and sometimes other people just
can't do it. They just can't be around someone.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Who's dying sharing feelings of another is so important in
life and apparently in depth. Let's go to the break
and we'll be back. You're listening to Shades of the
Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast Network. Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm
(38:27):
Sandra Champlain. My book We Don't Die, a skeptics discovery
of life after death, came out in twenty and thirteen.
In twenty fourteen, I started We Don't Die Radio, interviewing
people about why they believed in the afterlife. In the
beginning of twenty twenty, Tom producer of Coast to Coast AM,
(38:51):
came to me with an idea to create Shades of
the Afterlife. As he liked my work. It would be
a podcast of me reporting on various reasons to believe
in the afterlife. Shades is now going on three years old,
and I'm proud of both my podcasts. I know I
(39:11):
have a different set of listeners for each one, and
some people listen to both. Every so often. I have
a guest so spectacular that I feel I need to
share on both platforms today. I feel the same way.
What you're listening to now is an edited version of
a very long video conversation I had with doctor Moody
(39:35):
and Paul Perry. If you wish to watch the entire thing,
go to We Don't Die dot com click on the
radio show page. Trust me, when I think something can
really make a difference, I want to get it to
as many people as I can, as fast as I can.
So let's continue listening to some words by doctor Raymond Moody.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I tell you it's just a mystery one of person
who almost dies as an experience of seeing another world.
And it's a mystery multiplock when a bunch of people
say in after life that the death of somebody else,
But you know, the reality is, we just don't have
(40:18):
the mind to compute it. My hero of the afterlife
thinking is still David In, the great skeptic who influenced Einstein.
For example, he was seventeen eleven to seventeen seventy six,
the archetype of the skeptic. He was so skeptic, he said,
(40:38):
as to the impressions which arise from their senses, he said,
it's utterly beyond the rational possibility to determine whether those
things arise from the objects or are from the creative
power of our mind or from the author of our being.
(41:00):
It's like the whole assumption that we live in a
physical world and that is all a product of consciousness
and inferences about consciousness, and that's the reality. And humans
by the mere light of reason, it seems difficult to
prove the immortality of the soul. Now there's an understatement,
(41:26):
and he went on to say, some new species of
logic is required for that purpose, and some new faculties
of the mind that they may enable us to comprehend
that logic. Now, that is the brute reality. That's the
real that's the fact, no matter what anybody wants to
(41:49):
say or you know it's that's the real fact. And
so you see, it's traditionally been a thought that that's
the end of it. You know that that's impossible to me,
I say, no, absolutely not. We can do it. There
are new ways of thinking logic group, and if you
apply these new principles of logic, you can open faculties
(42:13):
or your mind you didn't know you had, and that
when you put those things together, we can actually prepare
our minds in advance so that when subsequently we happen
to have it in your death experience, we can come
back and tell everybody else about it in a whole
new way. I guarantee you what I'm saying is, if
(42:37):
you're curious about the afterlife and all that, just meaning
this book by proof of an effllent. I'm a logician,
you know I've studied proof. There is all different kinds
of proofs. What I want to say here is is
there proof of an effllence? That's what most people want
to know, and from what I have studied and what
I've listened to lots of people about what they're mean
(42:59):
when they're trying to say what kind of proof do
you want? What I can say is this. I can
say that as a logician person who's taught logic and philosophy,
I can say that it is a rational thing for
you to anticipate that when you die some amazing thing
(43:25):
is going to happen that won't sort of transfer you
into a call different level a round in that. That's
when I'm anticipating, not it's not a matter of believe
in or disbelieve as it is for me. So in
that sense, yeah, there's a proof there's for those who
(43:47):
are you know, not symbolic logicians or whatever, but just
ordinary folks wanting to know is there a rational basis
for this? Say absolutely, absolutely, Paul.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
What do you have to say about that?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Well, I heartily concur with that, and I know I
did want to mention that there's a lot of people
who want to know how to access Heaven's Gate, if
you will, and one of the theories they've come up with
is the theory of background information. And what that says
is is that on a daily basis, we're hit by thousands,
if not millions, of bits of information. You know, everything
(44:25):
for everything you see visually, to everything you read, all
your opinions, your own self talk and other people's talk,
and that what happens when people reach the state of
having an afterlife open up to them is that somehow
all of this background information, the unnecessary information, has cleared
out of their mind and they're able to focus on
(44:48):
the real background information, which is what happens to us
on a supernatural way. To do that, many people have
done deep meditations, they've done dark room meditations, things like that,
and there's still a long way to go and figure
out how to access this afterlife, if you will, But
that's one theory of it that once you clean out
(45:11):
the background information, you have an open gate if you will.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
What's the psycho manteum?
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Well, that's something I found out about when I was
eighteen years old, which I thought was ogwash. I am
a great fan of the Greeks, and when I was
eighteen I had a great course reading Herodotus, the history
these ancient Greek oracles of the Dad. They wrote about
they had places where you could go, where you go
(45:39):
through procedures and you would seem to see and talk
to deceased relatives. And so, to make a very long
story short, I also studied psychiatry and in altered states
of consciousness. I had been studying for some time the
phenomenon where if you have a vacant space in your
(46:03):
vision will feel like a glittering space or a clear depth.
They call it like you can take a silver bowl
and highly polish it on the inside, fill it with
olive oil, and then in a darkened room you gaze
by candlelight or some low illumination, you gaze into that.
(46:24):
And many people under those circumstances I have these hypnogogic
visions where they see this very lifelike, not like mental imagery,
but very lifelike, three dimensional visions. And I had known
about that, and I experimented with my psychology students. But
(46:45):
in nineteen eighty five six seven, I are found in
an archaeological journal that an archaeologist I already knew about
Ceterios Docors, he was very famous Greek classical archaeologist, had
rediscovered this place the oracle of the dead, and it
(47:08):
excavated it based on what they found there was in
the apparition chamber. They found a large cauldron, bronze cauldron,
and it was surrounded by a balustrae. This was obviously
a place you saw the visions, and there's torch marks
on the wall showing it was illuminated. You stayed down
(47:30):
there for twenty nine days talking about the person who died.
So then you went into a cut stone maze and
complete darkness, felt your way into this chamber and they
are gazing into this you saw the apparitions setarios hadn't
figured that part out. I had figured that party out,
(47:51):
and so I went to his place in ninety three
or something ninety four and I told him about No.
I think what it is is this because I recreated
it by then, and he said, yeah, like then he realized.
He showed me some books that people saying he had
just never put two and two together, but I tried
it out. You just set up a room where there's
(48:12):
a mirror. Bad. It's a darkened room, but the mirror
is placed higher than your line of visions, so you
don't see your reflection. The room is dark and you
don't see reflections. There's a gentle light behind you. Illuminated
this gently. But the primary thing is the preparation, Like
you think about talk about with your friend, like the
(48:36):
person who died, what was this person? Like? What are
your best memories? What are your sticking points in the relationships.
So then after this preparation, you go in there and
you just gaze into the mirror, and people have extraordinary things.
I was not expecting what the result. I was my
(48:57):
graduate students of psychology then time went. But my medical colleagues,
a psychiatry colleague, and a clinical psychologist colleague, and a
sociology colleague and an aneshesiologist were my subjects. And these
were people who were informed about the mind. So I
(49:17):
figured that anybody that did have a vision that said yeah, ray,
when I saw my grandma or was it real or
wasn't That was what I was expecting. But imagine my
surprise when my colleagues and graduate students came out of
there not saying I saw them, but yeah, I talked
to my grandma, and it was startling to me. It
(49:39):
was a way. I mean, I had no idea of
what I tapped into. And what people say is that
some say the image appears in the mirror. Others say that, yeah,
the image appears in the mirror, but then the image
comes out into the room.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Their book, Proof of Life after Life Seven Reasons to
Believe there is an Afterlife has instructions about setting up
your own psychomantium. Also remember to visit doctor Moody site
Life Afterlife dot com and Paul Perry Productions dot com.
And visit us at we Dondie dot com. Click on
(50:19):
the radio show page, come to a free Sunday gathering,
take a medium class with us, and more. I'm Sandra Champlain.
Thank you for listening to Shades of the Afterlife on
the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
And you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Thanks for choosing the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost Day
and Paranormal Podcast Network. Your quest for podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained ends here. We invite you to enjoy
all our shows we have on this network, and right now,
let's start with Chase of the Afterlife with Santra channaplay.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:42):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. Hi.
I'm Sandra Champlain. For over twenty five years, I've been
on a journey to prove the existence of life after death.
Each episode, we'll discuss the reasons we now know that
(01:03):
our loved ones have survived physical debt, and so will we.
Welcome to Shades of the Afterlife. I had an extraordinary
opportunity this past week. I got to interview the great
doctor Raymond Moody and co author Paul Perry on a
(01:24):
brand new book, and depending on when you're listening, it
may already be out. The book is titled Proof of
Life After Life, Seven Reasons to Believe there is an Afterlife.
The entire recording is well over an hour, so if
you would like to watch the full video interview, just
(01:48):
go to We Don't Die dot com and click on
the radio show page. Today, I want to include some
of the clips from that magnificent convertation and read to
you a little bit about what's in the book. They
were kind enough to send me a copy before it
(02:10):
gets out to the public. This is one of those
interviews that I actually learned some new things about life
after death, and I think you will too. So let
me tell you about the guys you are going to
hear from. First of all, doctor Raymond Moody and Paul
Perry are both longtime friends, both New York Times bestselling
(02:32):
authors with fifty years of investigating life after death. Doctor
Raymond Moody is the leading authority on the near death experience,
a phrase he coined back in the late seventies. His
groundbreaking work Life After Life completely changed the way we
viewed death and dying and has sold more than thirteen
(02:54):
million copies. Paul Perry is the co author of five
New York Times Best line including The Light Beyond with
Doctor Moody, Saved by the Light with Daniel Brinkley, and
Evidence of the Afterlife with doctor Jeffrey Long. He has
co written a dozen books on near death experiences, four
(03:15):
of them with doctor Moody, and directed two popular documentary
films on the subject. You can visit doctor Moody's website
at Life Afterlife dot com, and you can see all
that Paul Perry has done at Paul Perryproductions dot com.
So today we'll be talking about their book Proof of
(03:37):
Life after Life, Seven Reasons to Believe there is an Afterlife.
I first asked these two gentlemen how they met each other.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Hi, there, Helle, Thank you so much for this invitation.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I'm excited not just to share you, but it's
two for the price of one today, two wonderful gentlemen
and me lucky am I? How did you two first meet?
If I can ask that question?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Oh, that was interesting. Raymond was working on a book
at the time. Was a working title was Light Beyond.
That's what it ended up being called. And I was
editing a major health magazine in New York called American Health.
And my agent took me out to lunch one day
and he said, would you mind giving doctor Raymond Moody
(04:26):
a hand and writing a book? And I said, I
don't even know who doctor Moody is. And he said, really,
he named the near death experience and defined it. And
I said, I don't know what a near death experience is.
And so nat our agent says, is an abrupt guy.
And he says, I can't believe it. You're editing a
(04:47):
major health magazine. You're not smart enough to know what
a near death experience is. You need to go meet
Raymond Moody and study this whole field. And so that's
what I did. I went to Atlanta. Raymond was living
in Carrollton at the time, Georgia, and we talked about
the book The Light Beyond. We hit it off right away,
(05:07):
and one thing leads to another, and since now we've
written this is our sixth book together. Proof of Life
After Life is our sixth book. And one book always
leads to a question, and the question that needs to
be answered. And so that's what we do. We'll write
a book and all of a sudden, they'll be with
the light beyond. It was, see, there's nothing in this
(05:29):
book about children and near death experiences. And Raymond said, well,
you know, there's not much research being done on it.
But he directed me to Melvin Morris and Seattle and
I went to see Melvin and we wrote. We wrote
four books on children and Near death Experiences and other
aspects of the near death experience, and three of those
(05:50):
were New York Times bestsellers. And then it would go
on and on. We'd have question after question, book after book,
and that's what we did from that point to now
is answer these questions.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Incredible, doctor Moody, you remember when you met Paul.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I certainly do. And you know, Paul and I think
we have a great, you know, working team here because
I just tell you the truth. All the people who
know me very well will tell you it's true. But
in fact, I am such a bore and the way
I think, oh yes, all right, listen. I was a
(06:29):
professor of philosophy and logic, and my lifelong thing since
the age of eighteen is ancient Greek philosophy. Well, there's
a bestseller for you, right. So what I'm getting at
is This is not most people's fair, but it's how
I got interested in this from Plato studied this, and
(06:54):
the early Greek philosophers knew about these things. That's how
I found about it. Long But you know, a philosopher
is going to be the right person to present some
of this information to the average person, I think, and
so I tend to talk in abstractions and put the
(07:14):
information in that context. Whereas Paul could say, hey, just
a minute here, professor, you know that doesn't make any
sense to what And together we come up with the
way I think to present information that is sometimes very
you know, complex, hopefully in a way that people will't
(07:34):
relate to it and benefit from it.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
From there, Raymond is one of the probably the most
exciting and interesting person I know, and for reasons just
stated he knows everything.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Oh no, but I know enough to know I don't
know hardly any of that is the right I am.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
You know, he knows nothing about the Yankees or the
LA Dodgers.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
No. I do know about the professional wrestling, though that's true.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
That's another subject.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Though we need to follow our passions, right. We can't
talk about the ass but.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
This topic that you're interested in Sandra and Paul and
I are interested in It's been my experience beginning at
age eighteen, actually that when people reach a certain age,
and especially so I think that people have been so
successful that they've spent their lifetime focusing on their business
(08:35):
or the businesy work, you know, just focusing on that
side of life. When they reach a certain age, say fifties, sixties, seventies,
they begin to wake up to this question of life
after death, which has been put aside or thought of
as trivial or you know, it doesn't have or and
(08:57):
then they just automatically wake up to it. By the way,
that reason I found out about that at age eighteen
was I read it at my hero Plato, my first
philosophy class in September of sixty two. Reading the first
few pages of Plato's Republic, I decided then there to
shift from astronomy, which is why I went there to
(09:21):
study immediately to philosophy. Because this why is Plato's work
still in print at any store twenty three hundred years
People shouldn't ask themselves that well, number one, because it
is amazing, terrific stuff, and this Republic is about, in
(09:43):
the end, a near death experience. It starts with this
old guy who's been very successful in life, he says,
and Socrates is then about twenty meets the old guy says,
you know, Kevalos, what's it like from your point of view? Oh,
Kevlo says, I've been very successful when my business made
a lot of money. I've spent all time on my business,
(10:05):
and now here I am. I saw all those stories
I heard about about the afterlife when I was a kid,
coming back in these people developed a sense of urgency.
Then in a later Plato dialogue I read that same
semester he talked about the importance of this question of
life after death. So that's how I got into this,
(10:30):
and it's it came from Greek philosophy, where it was
a big point of study. And yet of course all
the other things too that people are concerned about. Because
after I got my PhD in philosophy, I was a
philosophy professor. I went into psychiatry, with my specific interest
(10:50):
in it being why people kill people from a law
enforcement family, wrote in a cop card. When I was
a kid, I mean my brother a shaf, my two uncles, Chieficale,
two cousins. I mean my dad worked for the DEA
as a surgeon for this drug stuff, and you see
(11:13):
how it is, you know. So to me, this big question,
which I studied from early on is why in the
world would somebody kill somebody? So I studied that in psychiatry,
and that worked in a unit for the criminally in
saying it was full of these people that you read
about in the National Enquirer was my daily work. And
(11:39):
so through all of this I have developed I think
a great piece in one respect with respect to the
question of life after death, and not through a logical
process exactly, because there's great logical difficulties in trying to
(11:59):
prove an after life, but thinking it through myself, I
just give up, you know. To me it looks like, yeah,
there's a life after death, as counterintuitive is it still
seems to me, and having no template from it, but
always debating with myself about it. It's this thing about
(12:21):
oxygen deprivation to the brain. I'm sorry, that's beloney, But
people have the same experience identically who are not themselves
ill or injured are going through our resuscitation, but rather
who are there in the presence of somebody who is dying.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
This is a good time to take our break and
then we'll get back. What doctor Moody's starting to talk
about is the shared death experience. I wanted to play
all that to so you've got a little flavor for
who these gentlemen are. They've been at this a long time,
So let's go to the break and be back. You're
listening to Shades of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and
(13:04):
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Welcome back to
(13:27):
Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain and we're listening
to Paul Perry and the world famous doctor Raymond Moody
talking about their brand new book, Proof of Life After Life,
Seven Reasons to Believe there is an afterlife, and I'll
give you a little sneak preview. Their reasons are all
(13:48):
in the realm of this shared death experience. So let's
listen to doctor Moody talk about the shared death experience.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's a very frequent occurrence that people standing around say
things like, oh, as grandma was dying, I myself, I
lift it out of my body. I started going towards
this light with my grandma, where people say, as Grandma
was dying, apparitions of the dying person's loved ones come
in the room, people see that, the whole room fills
(14:18):
with light. And most strikingly to me that in many
cases I've studied over the years, the by then at
the death of someone else that as the person's dying
will themselves empathically co participate in the dying life review
(14:41):
of the person there. And this to me is startling
information and it makes me trying to come up with
some reason that I could get myself recused from my
life review, because you know, the idea of his self
is enough to scare to worry about. But you know,
the idea of having a spectator there these people past
(15:04):
the popcorn. But it happens. It happens not just to
people as I would have thought, who are intimate and
know the person well. But in one case, a medical
doctors don't of sin is dying patients life review, who
had never even laid his eyes on the patient force
just called to the er.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Two.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So what I'm talking about is it something odd is
going on there that does not fit into the view
of reality that we're pretty much forced intent, you know,
in everyday life. So but the older you get the
more you're a medical to explore these things. I noticed
(15:46):
that the older I get, the more of my friends
through my agent, had some kind of experience in their life,
which is like stepping over into some other realm of existence.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
See.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I have a lot of friends who are medical doctors
whose medical judgment I would trust one hundred percent if
something happened to me. And those same friends of mine
tell me that, yeah, they had this near death experience
and not only was it real, but it was more
real than this ordinary reality. And you know the incredible
(16:24):
things that happen if you know the story probably of
Anthony Chikori and PhD in physiology in the professor of
orthopedic surgery at NYU, who had a profound death experience
and was struck in that had by a bolt of lightning,
had a cardiac rest and was it a family reunion,
(16:46):
was able to look all in, saw his relatives who
were there at the reunion at the resort center, even
though he was apparently dead, and you know, Anthony said,
you know, this is more real. Anthony, who had never
had any interest in music, started getting fascinated by the piano,
(17:08):
started having dreams in which he was playing a piano
or concert stage playing the same music, learned how to
play the piano and transcribe this music, and is now,
in addition to being a renowned orthopedic surgeon, as a
(17:29):
famed concert pianist too. I mean, see, things like that
don't make any sense if this world is as we
think by common sense that it is constituted. So see,
And I could go on with a you know, a
dozen other physicians that same story, but I give up.
(17:52):
I can't figure out how I could reconcile the fact
that I would put my help myself in these dogs hands,
you know, in a life or death situation, with the
fact that they all tell me that this thing is
more real than any reality that I've experienced.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I think, as human beings were hardwired not to believe.
Maybe it's to be tied in with the game of life.
I'm not hearing you though. I've experienced miracles myself, but
I wake up in the morning thinking is this all real?
You know?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I think that everybody's an experienced some kind of a
miracle and they don't recognize it or they don't want
to think about it. And when you start to mention,
for instance, with shared death experiences, which is what this
book is about. If you start to talk to people
about what you're working on, they almost everybody will say, well,
I've had an experience like that, and I didn't talk
(18:49):
about it because I thought people would think I was wacky,
or I just never thought it was an appropriate conversation.
For whatever reason, they don't like to bring it up.
Once you bring it up, that you start to open
up the flower, as it were, and people start to
deliver information that you previously didn't know was out there.
That's how it was with near death experiences, and this
(19:10):
book is vastly different from near death experiences, which your
experiences that take place with the people who are at
the best essentially at the bedside of someone has died,
who's dying, and they share their death experience.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I saw this old manor guy who was in his eighties,
who was a GP for all of his career, and
he was telling me, and this was that the Council
Grove Consciousness seminar that was put on by the Miniature Foundation,
and he was saying that he had this patient he
(19:44):
had had a long time. She was elderly and she
had hypertension and she had what we call corbo vine,
which is a big round art and it's caused by
if the high blood pressure over lumber. Design sometimes just
comes out and looks kind of round from pressure. Is
like a cow heart, and these hearts are very irritable.
(20:09):
This woman, who was I think in her nineties, I'm
pretty sure. He said, they kept going in and her
heart would stop, and then the zapper, she's back. So
the woman just passes away. But this doctor told me
that the friend told him that as her friend was dying,
She says, she herself the friend went out of her
(20:32):
body and was going up right with her friend toward
this light, and she saw the people she recognized as
the friends and relatives of her friend, and all of
them had died. It's all. I mean. I could go
on telling you a hundreds more, one hundred, as many
as you want. Stories like that. This near death experience
(20:54):
is not something that is somehow generated by an oxygen
that bird age deprived brain. But it's going to take
something else than what we have for society to wake
up with that, because this is too threatening people for
many people of of us. Some people can accept that
there's an afterlife, this idea scares a lot of other people,
(21:16):
so we're still going to be stuck for a while.
And this sort of framework is the reality versus the
oxygen deprivation. But you know one thing those folks never
think of is even if you could prove that it
was not oxygen deprivation to the brain, that still wouldn't
(21:37):
prove that it's life.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
You see.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
So in a way, that is all irrelevant because a
certain kind of mind, they've got to have this kind
of framework to process. But when this is going to
come all the loose is when we can step outside
of that framework and look at whole new possibilities about
these near experiences.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What's a precognitive experience?
Speaker 4 (22:03):
These are not all necessarily related to near death experiences.
I think that's the beauty of a shared death experience.
A shared death experience is when someone who is well
shares the death experience of someone who's dying. So in
the case of a precognitive experience, we have a couple
of case studies here people who had loved ones in
(22:23):
China and they were in England and they wake up
in the middle of the night and they see this
person who's in China standing at the foot of their
bed and tells them I've died and I'll miss you,
and then that's the end of the experience. It's later
proven that this person did die at the same time
that they had appeared to this individual. And we have
(22:44):
doctors who have seen their fathers. They've woken up and
they've seen their fathers standing there and the father says,
you know, you better talk to your mother, because I've
spoken to her and she knows that I'm dead. You
better talk to your mother. At the facts, that's precognitive,
it's that kind of an experience. But there's other ones
in here that aren't. They aren't all related to near
(23:07):
death experiences. And I think that's really the power of
this book is that this book takes off from near
death experiences, what's your subjective experiences? In other words, a
person who hasn't as an NDE is the person who
has it, and no one else has had it, no
one else can really experience with the experience. But to
share death experience is when someone shares the experience of
(23:30):
a dying individual. And that's what makes this book very different.
So if you look at things like light, mist and music,
we have once again a number of physicians who in
a hospital have actually seen a light or a mist
leave a person's body as they die. Or we have
people who hear music when someone is dying. They'll be
(23:52):
in the room and they'll hear music, and sometimes there
might be several people in the room with this individual
who hear music, and then several who don't. And that's
one of the puzzles of shared death experiences.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
You were mentioning too earlier, Sandra, about out of body experiences,
which are yes, that is a rather mind boggling part
of near death experiences. They often say they hear the
doctor pronounce them dead or say that they've died or whatever,
but they say, from their point of view, they feel
(24:25):
that they actually leave their physical bodies and they drift up.
Typically in most of the stories I hear, that's in
an operating room or medical facility or whatever. So people
say they can rise up, they see their body down below,
they can see the doctors and nurses working on it,
(24:45):
but their consciousness is separate. And then they say, in
the circumstances, you can understand what the doctor or nurse
or whoever are communicating, but you don't hear their voice.
That you sort of pick up on what they're communicating
by mind. When they try to communicate in turn, that
nobody can hear them kind of dawns on them that
(25:08):
this might be connected with what we call death. And
so with that realization, they say they go through this
passageway into another world.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
This is a great time to sneak in a break,
and we'll be right back with Paul Perry and doctor
Raymond Moody talking about their new book. You're listening to
Shades of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Welcome back to Shades
(25:58):
of the Afterlife. I'm Sam Champlain and you're listening to
a conversation I had with doctor Raymond Boody and Paul
Perry this week on their brand new book called Proof
of Life After Life, Seven Reasons to Believe There isn't
after Life. I feel so grateful that they picked me
for their first interview, and they were kind enough to
(26:21):
send me a copy of the book before it went
out to the public, so there's a high chance that
you're hearing this information before the rest of the world.
The forward of the book is by Eben Alexander, who
wrote of course proof of heaven. I want to tell
you what the seven reasons to believe are. Reason number one,
(26:42):
out of body experiences, Reason number two, precognitive experiences, Reason
number three, the transforming light, Reason number four, terminal lucidity,
Reason number five, spontaneous meat, uses healings and skills, Reason
(27:04):
number six, light missed and music, and reason number seven
the psychomntium. We all like hearing stories about what people experienced,
and this book is filled with stories, but not just
any stories, stories from doctors. Let's continue with Paul Perry
(27:27):
talking about terminal lucidity.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
We had one really incredible story from the nineteen thirties
of a woman who had meningitis as a child and
as a result, was essentially non functional her entire life.
She couldn't speak, she couldn't communicate much of any way
at all. As she was dying, she started singing, and
(27:50):
she started singing a song. She had never communicated, like
I say anything before. She started singing a song, saying
it so beautifully that the medicals staff was weeping and
they were all pouring into her room to hear this
phenomenon take place. And she seemed to have acquired information
she seemed to have acquired knowledge. In her final moments,
(28:12):
she sang, and then shortly thereafter she died. That's all
Senator's terminal lucidity, where someone becomes very lucid at the
point of being terminal.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I was just thinking, there are people too that, whether
it's dementia, there's nothing left, and then there are these bursts.
There can be bursts of they recognize everybody in the room.
And beyond is that all could be tied in with
this time.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Yes, there was one written about in Time magazine where
a doctor wrote about the oncologist and this person he
was talking about had essentially a head full of tumors
and he was just dead. He was essentially living dead.
But at the last moment, when children came into the room,
(29:01):
he popped out of it and he spoke with great
lucidity about how pleased he was to be their father
and what he would like to see continue in the family.
And they thought, he's healed, we can take him home,
and within a few hours he passed away. That's the
story of terminal City. I think it's going to be
one of the most common paranormal experiences.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, you know, Sundra people used to know about this
as just folk knowledge. They called it fay f e.
One I think was if you look into the Oxford
English sctionary, this sort of central definition of that is
a state of extraordinary enhanced consciousness that pretense emminent dath.
(29:49):
And people knew about that when people died at home,
but then people started dying at hospital. But see if anybody,
I mean, I can attest this, you know. I obviously
one of my activities as a medical doctor, a lot
of it had to do with the terminally helps. I
was known for that, and people would call me in
(30:10):
and so on. Anybody who is in that situation for
any period of time, hospice workers or whatever, you're going
to see this. And the trouble is when you describe it,
it's like you can nobody can believe it. I know
the description, but all right, here is the description. It's
like as a person died, they've even been demented on
(30:33):
it is like that, no communication for a long time,
and then as they die here you go hold onto
your hat. They light out, I swear to you, and
it's not the light coming from a light bulb, but
from the sun is coming from inside of them. It's
(30:53):
just this pure light.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
It's full of lightning experience, by the way.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, and people is like they've become completely coherent. It's
like my uncle, as he was dying, went around. I
gave a message to everybody and the family personally. And
yet you know that, you know that if you talk
about this, nobody else who hasn't seen it is even
(31:24):
capable of believing I had. This guy was a well
known on collogist. He was, I guess in his seventies,
and he was telling me this. He said, he had
this patient he had been dealing with for a long time,
and so the patient had died, and so they had
covered the patient up with the sheet. So the doctor
(31:46):
was standing around with the family who he had known
all a long time, and suddenly they saw the twitch
from under the sheet of front. You know what I mean,
he said. So he starts talking to everybody coherrectly, and
then he just sat back. Then, Dad, my friend said,
(32:09):
he said, unless those other people have been there with me,
he said, I would have concluded that I had had
an hallucination. It's just that uncanny when you say it.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Really, I think it's more common than people recognize. Yes,
it's now starting to be included on whatever the medical
records are. There's now, you know, a description on Cermons
description of term elucidity, and it just happened, and now
they're starting to find that it's quite common.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah. Bystanders often say, is what this man flew all
the way from Australia to see me to tell me
about the experience he had with his wife when he's dying.
He was getting ready to go to the store for
a minute, and so he just wanted to come on
their out and be right back. But when he walked
down the room, he said, it was like, oh my god,
(33:06):
she's perking up, and it was like they had a
really heartfelt conversation and he thought she's turning around. So
he went to the store. As you can imagine, when
he came back, she was dead. And I will remember
that look on his face when he told me he
said what it was like. He said, she already had
(33:28):
one foot on the other side, and the mystified look
on his face. It's not something that is easy to
put aside as oxygen deprivation to the brain. I'll tell
you that.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
These experiences are amazing. I mean this. In putting together
this book I feel like I've heard everything and seen everything,
and I discovered that wasn't true. In putting this book together.
One of the things that was very unique to me
is that years ago, if you told her doctor you
were working out a book on near death experiences, many
of them would pooh pooh it. They would deny that
(34:06):
it took place. Now you start to hear stories from physicians.
Many of the stories in this book, we have a
large number of physician stories, and then some of them,
like one that really amazes me is is people who
see a mist coming out of someone who's dying. Because
not only have we spoken to several doctors who has
(34:29):
come out of people who are dying, but the description
of what happens is the same. Is that they'll see
a mist and the mist forms and seems to get
sucked into a tube, are sucked into some hole and
disappeared through there through the ceiling. I mean, the description
is the same, which is good news because it means
(34:51):
that it's it's a legitimate phenomenon. If it repeats certain elements,
it's a legitimate phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I mean, I've got to be honest, I'm saying it
most I mean, I just old that walk was that
it presents itself as a mist to us, because a
mist is a symbol of the unknown or the unknowable.
I guess it's clouds themselves, which we now understood.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You remember in the eighth grade you learned that that
system of classifying the four types the cumulus and the stratus,
and cyrus and nimbus. And that came about in the
eighteen thirties because up to that time, see, the common
sense was that clouds are unknowable because they unintelligible, efemorable,
(35:51):
all changeable, and they were the very symbol people. It
was what the people symbolized unknowability or unintelligibility, that it's unstable.
And because knowledge, by contrast, is something solid and stable,
so the knowledge of the clouds would by definition be
(36:12):
and people were ridiculed. Up in the clouds we say,
you know, and in the clouds we still say those things.
That was something utterly unintelligible and beyond reason and knowledge.
Then this guy named Luke Howard who was a pharmacist
and he traveled in his business back and forth. It's
(36:32):
just interested in this got to watching clouds through the
carriage or where we're drawing them. Then he realized, oh
my god, there's different types of some of them are
big empuffs. So he published this paper from a scientific
society he belonged to, and it created a sensation because,
(36:54):
as you can imagine, anybody who cared to read the
paper and then wanted to walk outside could see was
right right, Because you can all say it for ourselves,
why don't you? And so I think, you know, something
like that has got to happen, because this is so
what in the world are we dealing with? What they
missed coming out of somebody's body when they die.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
I asked these guys if they thought shared death experiences
happen because people are in the present moment. We like
to believe that doctors are in the present moment.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
You do have to have a peaceful mind, a present mind,
but you also a lot have to have a lot
of empathy. I think empathy is a real factor and
all these experiences interesting. People with empathy can be in
a room with someone who's dying and they can lend
their empathy to the person, and sometimes other people just
can't do it. They just can't be around someone.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Who's dying sharing feelings of another is so important in
life and apparently in depth. Let's go to the break
and we'll be back. You're listening to Shades of the
Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast Network. Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm
(38:27):
Sandra Champlain. My book We Don't Die, a skeptics discovery
of life after death, came out in twenty and thirteen.
In twenty fourteen, I started We Don't Die Radio, interviewing
people about why they believed in the afterlife. In the
beginning of twenty twenty, Tom producer of Coast to Coast AM,
(38:51):
came to me with an idea to create Shades of
the Afterlife. As he liked my work. It would be
a podcast of me reporting on various reasons to believe
in the afterlife. Shades is now going on three years old,
and I'm proud of both my podcasts. I know I
(39:11):
have a different set of listeners for each one, and
some people listen to both. Every so often. I have
a guest so spectacular that I feel I need to
share on both platforms today. I feel the same way.
What you're listening to now is an edited version of
a very long video conversation I had with doctor Moody
(39:35):
and Paul Perry. If you wish to watch the entire thing,
go to We Don't Die dot com click on the
radio show page. Trust me, when I think something can
really make a difference, I want to get it to
as many people as I can, as fast as I can.
So let's continue listening to some words by doctor Raymond Moody.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I tell you it's just a mystery one of person
who almost dies as an experience of seeing another world.
And it's a mystery multiplock when a bunch of people
say in after life that the death of somebody else,
But you know, the reality is, we just don't have
(40:18):
the mind to compute it. My hero of the afterlife
thinking is still David In, the great skeptic who influenced Einstein.
For example, he was seventeen eleven to seventeen seventy six,
the archetype of the skeptic. He was so skeptic, he said,
(40:38):
as to the impressions which arise from their senses, he said,
it's utterly beyond the rational possibility to determine whether those
things arise from the objects or are from the creative
power of our mind or from the author of our being.
(41:00):
It's like the whole assumption that we live in a
physical world and that is all a product of consciousness
and inferences about consciousness, and that's the reality. And humans
by the mere light of reason, it seems difficult to
prove the immortality of the soul. Now there's an understatement,
(41:26):
and he went on to say, some new species of
logic is required for that purpose, and some new faculties
of the mind that they may enable us to comprehend
that logic. Now, that is the brute reality. That's the
real that's the fact, no matter what anybody wants to
(41:49):
say or you know it's that's the real fact. And
so you see, it's traditionally been a thought that that's
the end of it. You know that that's impossible to me,
I say, no, absolutely not. We can do it. There
are new ways of thinking logic group, and if you
apply these new principles of logic, you can open faculties
(42:13):
or your mind you didn't know you had, and that
when you put those things together, we can actually prepare
our minds in advance so that when subsequently we happen
to have it in your death experience, we can come
back and tell everybody else about it in a whole
new way. I guarantee you what I'm saying is, if
(42:37):
you're curious about the afterlife and all that, just meaning
this book by proof of an effllent. I'm a logician,
you know I've studied proof. There is all different kinds
of proofs. What I want to say here is is
there proof of an effllence? That's what most people want
to know, and from what I have studied and what
I've listened to lots of people about what they're mean
(42:59):
when they're trying to say what kind of proof do
you want? What I can say is this. I can
say that as a logician person who's taught logic and philosophy,
I can say that it is a rational thing for
you to anticipate that when you die some amazing thing
(43:25):
is going to happen that won't sort of transfer you
into a call different level a round in that. That's
when I'm anticipating, not it's not a matter of believe
in or disbelieve as it is for me. So in
that sense, yeah, there's a proof there's for those who
(43:47):
are you know, not symbolic logicians or whatever, but just
ordinary folks wanting to know is there a rational basis
for this? Say absolutely, absolutely, Paul.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
What do you have to say about that?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Well, I heartily concur with that, and I know I
did want to mention that there's a lot of people
who want to know how to access Heaven's Gate, if
you will, and one of the theories they've come up with
is the theory of background information. And what that says
is is that on a daily basis, we're hit by thousands,
if not millions, of bits of information. You know, everything
(44:25):
for everything you see visually, to everything you read, all
your opinions, your own self talk and other people's talk,
and that what happens when people reach the state of
having an afterlife open up to them is that somehow
all of this background information, the unnecessary information, has cleared
out of their mind and they're able to focus on
(44:48):
the real background information, which is what happens to us
on a supernatural way. To do that, many people have
done deep meditations, they've done dark room meditations, things like that,
and there's still a long way to go and figure
out how to access this afterlife, if you will, But
that's one theory of it that once you clean out
(45:11):
the background information, you have an open gate if you will.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
What's the psycho manteum?
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Well, that's something I found out about when I was
eighteen years old, which I thought was ogwash. I am
a great fan of the Greeks, and when I was
eighteen I had a great course reading Herodotus, the history
these ancient Greek oracles of the Dad. They wrote about
they had places where you could go, where you go
(45:39):
through procedures and you would seem to see and talk
to deceased relatives. And so, to make a very long
story short, I also studied psychiatry and in altered states
of consciousness. I had been studying for some time the
phenomenon where if you have a vacant space in your
(46:03):
vision will feel like a glittering space or a clear depth.
They call it like you can take a silver bowl
and highly polish it on the inside, fill it with
olive oil, and then in a darkened room you gaze
by candlelight or some low illumination, you gaze into that.
(46:24):
And many people under those circumstances I have these hypnogogic
visions where they see this very lifelike, not like mental imagery,
but very lifelike, three dimensional visions. And I had known
about that, and I experimented with my psychology students. But
(46:45):
in nineteen eighty five six seven, I are found in
an archaeological journal that an archaeologist I already knew about
Ceterios Docors, he was very famous Greek classical archaeologist, had
rediscovered this place the oracle of the dead, and it
(47:08):
excavated it based on what they found there was in
the apparition chamber. They found a large cauldron, bronze cauldron,
and it was surrounded by a balustrae. This was obviously
a place you saw the visions, and there's torch marks
on the wall showing it was illuminated. You stayed down
(47:30):
there for twenty nine days talking about the person who died.
So then you went into a cut stone maze and
complete darkness, felt your way into this chamber and they
are gazing into this you saw the apparitions setarios hadn't
figured that part out. I had figured that party out,
(47:51):
and so I went to his place in ninety three
or something ninety four and I told him about No.
I think what it is is this because I recreated
it by then, and he said, yeah, like then he realized.
He showed me some books that people saying he had
just never put two and two together, but I tried
it out. You just set up a room where there's
(48:12):
a mirror. Bad. It's a darkened room, but the mirror
is placed higher than your line of visions, so you
don't see your reflection. The room is dark and you
don't see reflections. There's a gentle light behind you. Illuminated
this gently. But the primary thing is the preparation, Like
you think about talk about with your friend, like the
(48:36):
person who died, what was this person? Like? What are
your best memories? What are your sticking points in the relationships.
So then after this preparation, you go in there and
you just gaze into the mirror, and people have extraordinary things.
I was not expecting what the result. I was my
(48:57):
graduate students of psychology then time went. But my medical colleagues,
a psychiatry colleague, and a clinical psychologist colleague, and a
sociology colleague and an aneshesiologist were my subjects. And these
were people who were informed about the mind. So I
(49:17):
figured that anybody that did have a vision that said yeah, ray,
when I saw my grandma or was it real or
wasn't That was what I was expecting. But imagine my
surprise when my colleagues and graduate students came out of
there not saying I saw them, but yeah, I talked
to my grandma, and it was startling to me. It
(49:39):
was a way. I mean, I had no idea of
what I tapped into. And what people say is that
some say the image appears in the mirror. Others say that, yeah,
the image appears in the mirror, but then the image
comes out into the room.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Their book, Proof of Life after Life Seven Reasons to
Believe there is an Afterlife has instructions about setting up
your own psychomantium. Also remember to visit doctor Moody site
Life Afterlife dot com and Paul Perry Productions dot com.
And visit us at we Dondie dot com. Click on
(50:19):
the radio show page, come to a free Sunday gathering,
take a medium class with us, and more. I'm Sandra Champlain.
Thank you for listening to Shades of the Afterlife on
the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
Host
Sandra Champlain
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