June 12, 2024 • 40 mins
Jennifer Esposito grew up in Staten Island, surrounded by the violence of the Mafia and dreaming of escaping and making it to the big screen. But it wasn’t until her recent film, Fresh Kills, that she was truly able to claim her career for herself and tell the stories of the human experience that she longed to share with the world. On this episode of She Pivots, Jennifer talks with Emily about the disappointments in her early career, her battle with celiac disease, and why Fresh Kills is so deeply personal to her - a letter to her former self.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to She Pivots. I'm Jennifer Esposito.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk with
women who dared to pivot out of one career and
into something new and explore how their personal lives impacted
these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. This week,
I'm thrilled to share the story of Jennifer Esposito. Many
(00:36):
of you know her best from shows like NCIS or
Blue Bloods, but it's her latest pivot into writing, directing,
and producing that is truly the amalgamation of her career
and her life. Fresh Kills, which comes out this Friday,
June fourteenth, is Jennifer's directorial debut, and it is truly
a work of art. What I love about the film
(00:57):
is that it flips the script on the typical mob
boss genre, centering the experiences of the women, not the men.
It explores the rage and the subsequent violence that manifests
in this community of women who were born into a
volatile life not of their choosing. Jennifer wrote Fresh Kills
after seeing so much pain and rage around her growing
(01:17):
up in Staten Island. It was something that stuck with
her and something she couldn't understand. It both fascinated and
haunted her, that is until she too went through a
series of life experiences that made her rage. After starting
off her career working with Spike Lee and John Singleton,
(01:38):
Jennifer was blacklisted by what she describes as a quote
Harvey Weinstein esque producer. Shortly after, she went through a
series of intense health issues and was passed from doctor
to doctor without proper care or diagnosis. She made adjustments
along the way, and she did her best to make
it in the industry that she had dreamt of since
(01:58):
she was a child. But she was tough, she was angry,
and soon Fresh Kills was born. I can tell you
as someone who had a chance to see the film already,
it is an incredible film. You can feel the fury
and you empathize with the battles the women in the
movie are fighting. But now after hearing Jennifer's story, I
(02:20):
can see it all clicked together. As the character's battle
with access to opportunity, so does Jennifer. As the characters
rage about the lack of opportunity because of their circumstances,
so does Jennifer. It is a beautiful film made by
a beautiful and inspiring woman. So after you listen to
this episode, be sure to go see Fresh Kills in
(02:40):
the movie theaters.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Enjoy. Jennifer Esposito is my name? What do I do well?
I've been an actress for two almost thirty years. Tell
us about where are you from? Where did you grow up? Like?
Tell us a little picture for us, Little Jennifer. I
was born in Brooklyn, was there until probably third grade,
(03:06):
and then we moved to Staten Island and that's where
it all starts. I was that kid who always needed
to understand why. I'm still very much like that, Like
if things don't add up for me, I'll constantly be
trying to figure it out. Like that's part of the
reason why I don't sleep, because if there's an un
(03:29):
answered question, which there usually is about life for the
world or work or whatever, I need to understand and digest.
Oh that makes sense now. So I was that kid
that really needed to understand why. But there was always
a feeling of I feel like I'm different than my
(03:50):
surroundings and not looking down on any one kind of way.
I just always felt like I see things differently, and
as I grew up it remain very true. Remember in
the eighth grade year book, I put, oh, I want
to be an actress, and I was ridiculed because where
I grew up, it didn't seem like dreams mattered, It
(04:13):
didn't seem like future mattered. It was a very interesting culture,
and especially for the young women I felt. I mean,
I look at that now and can see it, but
I didn't know it then. But I remember always thinking, like,
you know, it wasn't the first priority of just having
a boyfriend or looking cute or talking about you know,
(04:36):
did you see Sally's dress? Like I don't care about
Sally's dress? Like I was like listening to like Bette
Midler sing the Rose, Like why is she seeing like that?
It's so deep? Like what does this movie mean? I
would write poetry and I'd like, you know, these things
that just didn't quite fit to my family, didn't quite
(04:57):
fit to my surroundings. So I just alway felt like, oh,
there's something else that I was supposed to leave, and
like I was supposed to leave and go and go
do this thing and be this thing and create. So
I knew that as a little kid, and as I
got older, I realized what that was. And I used
(05:19):
to be plopped in front of a TV and I
would watch Grease over and over and over. I knew
every dance move. I would watch West Side Story when
I was a kid, and I'd throw myself off the
couch pretending I was a jets I was a jet person.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And you connected with acting, singing, dancing, writing, Did you
pursue all of those equally?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
No, So I remember wanting to. I remember telling my mom,
this is what I want to do. Can you take
me on auditions? And was like, absolutely not, it's not happening.
Do you want to do that when you're eighteen, go
do it? But not doing it now? And honestly, I
don't know exactly if it was for the right reason
that I'm going to say, but it was a good
decision because being a child in this business, I cringe.
(06:11):
I cringe. It's hard enough for an adult. For a
child in your formative years, I really do, it's scary.
So again, I knew that I wanted to do that,
but I didn't know exactly what that was. But I
assumed it was an actress because that's what I saw.
(06:31):
I never saw a female filmmaker. I didn't see that
I didn't see about It was always if I did
see that, it was a man. So when I did
get older, I left at eighteen and I put myself
through acting school Lee Strausberg. Waiting tables. Do you remember
(06:51):
where you waited tables? Oh? Yes, do I remember? It
was the coffee shop. I waited tables with Maxwell the singer,
with Tate Diggs, with like a whole bunch of like
now they're you know, famous, and went on their way.
But it was like this bunch of kids with dreams
and we would wait tables and then go out dancing
(07:11):
until like the next day, and like had to blast.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Bright eyed and bushy tailed. Jennifer began finding her way
in the industry she had loved since she was a kid,
but it wasn't as creative or as easy as she
had once dreamed.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
But as you get into the business and you realize,
oh wait, I'm trying to be an actress to understand
that why and tell those stories and talk about that
injustice and create and yeah, and then you're giving your
lines and it's like, I'm a hand in foot model.
My first job, that was my line on loving and
(07:50):
I said, Hi, I'm a hand and foot model? You
want to take my pictures? And I was like, is
this it? Is this what I are the tables for?
And something never set right with me about the kind
of things that I was was placed in front of me. Yeah.
(08:12):
So yeah, that's where it kind of started to like,
oh wait a minute, but it still felt worth it. Well.
After school, you know, I did a lot of plays
and stuff for no money, and like all that stuff,
and that that's where it's like, ah, this is feeding you,
you know that, because it's all about expression, right, any
kind of creativity, and that is something I need. I know,
(08:34):
I need, Like if I'm not creating something, I get depressed,
Like I need to create. So I would do these
plays for nothing, and I was in school and doing
these student in films and whatever. But when I finally
got an agent and they sent me out for my
it was my first audition and it was for Loving
(08:54):
and it was those five lines of I'm a hen
and foot model. Are you kidding me? I was like,
I fucking made it. Oh, was like Hollywood's calling any
day now, any day. I was like, this is this
is amazing. I thought it was incredible. So yes, it
didn't happen right that that the realization of like wait,
(09:16):
because I was just so happy to be there, and
that's wonderful, but you know I did want more.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I mean, I think that's how a lot of women.
I think that could apply in so many contexts, so
many content like we're just so happy to be in
the room, like percent that we put up with a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That brings me to a huge point because I teach,
I've always taught throughout my career, and I teach a
lot now. I had to get back to just the
work and the art, and I teach now, and I
teach a lot of women. And we have something called
the I'm sorry monologues, and swomen at the moment they
felt one of them that they felt they lost themselves,
(09:56):
and the I'm sorry is either to themselves or it's
to someone or it's ironic I'm sorry, like I'm not
fucking sorry. And I cannot tell you how powerful this
has become. And one of the biggest things that comes
up is this notion of being grateful, grateful to just
(10:17):
be there, grateful for just being around and being able
to sit in the same room. And what I keep
challenging is I can be grateful, because I struggled with
this for many years. It's like, but you have a job,
be grateful, but this isn't the job that it's not
even not the job I want. It's I can do more.
(10:38):
And when you say, as a woman, I can do
more and I want more, you're condemned. And it's like,
but it can be both. I can be grateful to
be here and thank you very much for the job,
but I can also say I want more.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Jennifer had big dreams and she knew what she had
to give, and unlike so many women, she believed in it.
But this was the early aughts, and women who were
too loud or too outspoken, or didn't fit into the
quote ideal version of a Hollywood star were put on
the back burner. Jennifer resented it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So when you speak up for any reason in my business,
it's like, oh, that's so difficult. Who wants to work
with anybody who's asking questions? If you are a female
and you're going to ask too many questions in that space,
there's someone behind you that's not going to ask questions,
and the days easier. It's like, and I do get that,
(11:33):
but it puts women in a position that they know
if they want more and if they speak up on
any behalf of like just saying, hey, agent, do you
think I could see something? It's like this one. But
in the beginning, I heard you're too ethnic, you're to this,
(11:53):
you're to New York, you sound like you're from New York.
You're this, you're too sexy, not sexy enough, You're not this,
you're not white. I was like, what what am? I?
What am? I? Then tell me what I am? And
I really did spend an awful lot of time trying
to be this all American. What they were telling me
(12:15):
all American was, which was blonde, blue eyed, quiet and
not make anybody scared. I get be you know, likable
to every And I tried for years because I wanted
the roles, because I wanted the roles, and I was
being told, no, you're going to play you know, the
(12:36):
friend of that girl or not even and I thought, well, okay,
I have to try and be Julie Roberts. And it
took many years until I realized, like I am, I'm
not Julie Roberts. I'm just not her in any way,
shape or form. I mean, she's lovely and she's great actress,
but I'm not her, and it definitely, it definitely took
(12:59):
its toll over time, time for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Finally, Jennifer landed a big role in the Spike Lee
film Summer of Sam.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Working with someone like him on a role that was real,
that was made for an actor, and I was an actor,
like I studied for years and I love that work.
That was incredible. To then go back and like do
just whatever. It was hard. But what happened after that
(13:28):
is I after that movie came out, I kind of
that's when it was like I catapulted to Hollywood and
I was thrown into a lot of different situations, and
one in particular was with an amazing who's now passed
filmmaker and I remember he hired me, but then he
called me into his office a week later and he said,
(13:49):
I'm letting you know no one wants you here, and
I was like, oh, what does that mean? Like what
I think? I was twenty six and he was fighting
with the producer on the movie, and a very long,
painful story short, I became a casualty in the fight,
as did a few other cast members. But this was
(14:12):
an notorious brutal producer, a Harvey Weinstein esque type of person.
He literally had the power and used it to completely
end a young girl's career at twenty six years old.
So he fired me for no reason. He wanted someone
else and he got her. But then, like anybody that
(14:35):
called and was like, hey, I want to hire her,
he was like, don't hire her. Said I was a
drug addict, locked myself in the trailer. Never happened. I
don't do drugs, never did. If you do, great, she's
not me. And that was a really, really painful time
because he literally that kid who was waiting tables and
that kid who had this dream since she was a baby.
(14:57):
He literally took it because he could and killed it.
And I got dropped by my agency and they were like,
we know what he did, but we can't help you
because he's who he is and he's that big and
we have to have clients that work for him. So
I casually got moved to the desk of the assistant
(15:18):
and then casually out the door. And I couldn't get work.
I didn't have an agent and I'm a manager for
two and a half years. How did you come out
of it? After those two and a half years, I
had a new team, and I remember actually the conversation.
There was a movie that they had interested in me
(15:41):
and my new team had to sign for me to say, like,
this person's not a drug addict. And the reason why
I know this, By the way, I forgot if it
was Spike or this filmmaker that has passed. It was
John Singleton. One of them called me to tell me
what was going on, because no, I didn't understand what
(16:01):
was going on, because what had happened is I was
getting an offer to do Charlie's Angels, which was the
biggest of the biggest movie at the time for a
young woman, and all of a sudden it didn't happen.
And I was like, wait a minute. I was in
the room with the ladies, like this was my job.
What happened? And we found out from Yeah that he
(16:22):
put the kaibash on one of the biggest things that
ever happened in my career. Could have happened. That's unbelievable. Yeah,
so I had to live with that. But like I said,
he was up here. I mean he was at every oscar,
every and I was begging for work when I was
right at that cusp of like I was going to
break into a new place where you know, you get
(16:44):
something like Charlie's Angels, and not that that's like the
work I want to do, but it was. It was
you know, at the time, it would have been a blast,
and there were great girls that I got to meet,
but it also would have opened doors for me, you know,
to do work that I would have loved. But instead
it was like going through my money broke, traumatized. Yeah,
(17:06):
at oh, how did you have the strength to stay
in the field at all. It was a hard time,
but it was also a beautiful time because if I
wasn't that kid, I would have never been this woman.
And I'm very proud of who I am and very
proud of what I've done. I know for a fact
that that didn't happen with that producer and my road
(17:29):
was easier. I would have never wrote and directed what
I just did because, as I've said to a few
people that know me well, Fresh Kills, my film was
for the twenty six year old kid who got slaughtered.
I gave her her career back in the way that
she could do it, not the way someone else told
(17:51):
me I could do it. I gave that to that
kid because she I needed to right the wrong again.
It's that thing in my brain that won't let me
rest like that wasn't fair. Things were taken from me
that I didn't agree to, and then you set me
on a course that I didn't deserve. That's not okay.
So my film really was to that kid.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Before we get fully into fresh Kills, we're going to
dive into her battle with not only her health, but
with the healthcare system and the all too common issues
of not being heard as a woman in pain. But first,
a quick word from our sponsors. Let's layer in the
personal with the professional here a little. When was it
(18:38):
that you started to get really sick?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So I always had, uh, they would say, a sensitive stomach,
and I was a sensitive I was sensitive, so I'm
very sensitive. But what that does is it really makes
your body in this state of attack kind of nervous
all the time. So, and I grew up in a
house that was it's a little insane, to be honest.
(19:02):
And I was very scared inside my house for different reasons.
And I was very scared outside of my house because
I grew up around a lot of mafia and the
girls always wanted to kill me, so I was scared.
I just thought fear was your emotion every day, Like
I there's a line in the movie It's like every
day of my life, I'm afraid, and I don't feel
it anymore. That's how I just existed. So my nervous
(19:24):
system was constantly at a state of panic. And I
saw my mother deal with anxiety disorder, and of course
I started to have panic attacks and anxiety issues at
like thirteen, and my Mom's like, here, take some out
of it, and it's fine, I have it too, and
it's like, that's probably not the right answer. But so
I kind of thought, because I saw her like this
(19:46):
and I grew up like this, that oh, this is
just life. This is I'm supposed to be vibrating all
the time, and I'm supposed to be sick stomach all
the time. And here take peptobysmal if your stomach is sick,
and here taken out a van if that's not working here.
And it was just like, that's not correct, and I
really didn't know that. So when I started, when I
(20:08):
moved out, and you know, eighteen nineteen, I started to realize, like, wait,
this isn't right. But I was in such a spiral
of like work in school and work in school, that
I actually went to get a wisdom tooth extracted, and
they gave me too much anesthesia and threw off my
chemistry already that was vibrating in such a way that
(20:30):
I became a gloraphobic and I had to move back
in with my family. And a lot of people don't
know this, but I was. I literally moved back in
and I didn't leave the house for like a year.
I was really really not well. I would have panic
attacks that they were really bad, and had to relearn
how to walk up the street. I remember my dad's saying,
(20:54):
just walk with me, Just walk with me up the street.
It was like nope, I can't do it. Like the light,
everything would just send me off. And the depression. They
put me on so much medication. And it was then
that I started to learn how vitamins and food affected you,
because in my house, like oh, here's a bagel, here,
I have some pasta. So from then I started to
(21:17):
really research vitamins and food and all that, and I
got myself on a schedule and started taking B vitamins
because I knew that had to do with nervous system,
and so I actually healed myself through that and then
got back out into the world, but still always had
an underlying like oh my stomach or maybe it was this,
maybe is that, But I was more aware, so I
through that throughout the years, I went to every kind
(21:39):
of doctor you would imagine, from you know, natural path
to regular doctor to gi then I was going to
like healers and like whatever just helped me. And everybody
would chalk it up to your emotional you're sensitive, you're
a woman, it's your hormones, it's And it got to
(22:01):
the point when I was probably around thirty thirty early thirties,
things started to hit the fan. Also, as you can
hear my career, the stress of that was so huge,
so that taking that in trying to be someone I
wasn't all of it. I just broke down. My body
(22:23):
started to break down in a really serious way, like
my nails started to fall off, my skin was peeling off,
my hair started fallout and clumps. The panic attacks started
to come again in a major way, like a major way.
It wasn't now, I wasn't somewhere. I'd be on my
couch at home, and all of a sudden, this wave
(22:44):
would come up, like I got to get out of here,
like awful, or I'd just pass out, fall asleep, and
then like I was working during this time, and it'd
be like, all of a sudden, you know, where's Jennifer
for lunch? Or and I had to sleep, had to sleep,
and I'd get recurring sinus infections and until the day
(23:04):
I never forget. I was on set. There's a show
I was doing called Samantha Who. And I was on
set and it was in between a take and a
tooth fell out of my mouth, like literally, I was like,
wait a minute. I was like, is my tooth? Like
your tooth just fell And it was like there's something
for a man. There's something like I've been going to
(23:26):
doc for years and I would be vegan and then
I would be you know, everything I could try. I
was trying it and nobody was helping me. And again
it was just like.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You're a woman.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Here, take some some adavan, take some prozac. And I
was like, but that's not it. And now I am
depressed because I'm not well and nobody's listening to me.
So I finally went to this one one doctor and
she was a female general practitioner, and and she said, Okay,
I'm going to figure it out. And she called me
maybe five days later and she said, Jennifer, you have
(23:59):
the worst case of ciliac disease I think I've ever seen.
I don't know how you're existing, because if anyone doesn't know,
silic disease is basically the villi that's around your small intestine,
which are responsible to take nutrients in from your food
and give it to the rest of your body to
keep you alive and functioning. They die and mine were
(24:21):
like beyond damage, so nothing was getting fed. That's why
my nervous system was shot, my bones like all of
this stuff was going on. So I was pretty sick.
I was really really sick at that point. And that
lasted for quite a while, and there were there were
professional repercussions for it. Oh my god, absolutely. I remember.
(24:44):
I was supposed to leave for a job maybe five
days after I got diagnosed, and I was told just
don't eat gluten. And I went to go do this
job and I literally collapsed like one off. I was
supposed to do an episode or something, and I was like,
I want up in the hospital, like you go through
a detox and no one tells you about that. I
went through such a bad detox from gluten. I wound
(25:08):
up in the hospital like it feels like you're coming
off heroin, Like really, it's awful. So then I couldn't
work and do anything. And then what I'm sure referring
to is then when I was able to move but slowly,
Blue Bloods came around and it was, you know, pitched
to me is like, you're going to be a partner,
(25:28):
but this show is about a family and you're going
to be part time. And I was like, great, that's
I can do that, and it's in New York and
it just wasn't that, and my pay was that, and
it progressed that. It was like, well, it's not that anymore,
so can we get the correct pay, because then I
can get help. I can get someone to help me
because everything I have to eat is has to be
(25:49):
by me. Because I had not only allergic to gluten,
I was allergic to eggs. I was allergic to dairy.
I was allergic to soy like I it was and
I was so so it was like two years before
I was like even anywhere near moving. Those people aren't
there anymore. I will say I have been back to
Blue Blood since and they're lovely and I really do
(26:12):
like them. But at the time, the people that were there,
they just said no, And it was like, what do
you mean, No, My co star is getting four times
the amount of me and I'm doing the same work,
And it was like, So it was about the fact
that I needed help because I was working so much
(26:32):
and I wasn't well. So yeah, it just turned out unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
At this point, Jennifer was ready for a change, a pivot.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Dare I say?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
The industry had taken its toll on her, and as
she learned more and more about the impact of food
on her health, she decided to open a gluten free bakery.
In twenty twelve, she opened Jennifer's Way in the East
Village to create a space for people with celiac to
eat safely.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Only about the food. It's about the nostalgia. I used
to walk up the block with my dad when I
was a kid and get a jelly donut. That was
like a bonding moment. And I didn't you think like
birthdays and like Christmas and like those things that bring
family or friends. That was all hard now, so there's
(27:20):
more to it. So I thought, let me open a bakery.
Why not. I hate that business, let me get let
me get in another business. And it was wonderful for
a while. It really was wonderful. It was a joy
to have parents bring their kid in. And I never
forget this man came in the first week we're open
and he put his little boy on the counter and said,
(27:42):
you can have whatever you want, because that's always the
thing with silly acts, like we'll go to dinner and
it's like, not what do we want, it's what can
we eat safely? And that's not fun, especially for kid
Like my whole childhood was about like what food are
we going to eat? You know, or your cousin or
your friends, Like let's be cookies, let's get pizza kids.
(28:04):
It's not fun. So it was just a nice experience
to be able to do that. But that didn't last. No.
I mean, we had big opportunities to you know what
I mean. I had some huge opportunities on the table,
but the partners I wound up taking on, you know,
wanted to change some ingredients in an unhealthy way, and
(28:26):
I just unfortunately the integrity I can't go out on
my name, you know, to be in that kind of
business when the margins are so low, you know, it's
a part of a business brain that I couldn't lessen
the quality just to make a dime. Yeah, I couldn't
do it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Jennifer left the business after a difficult legal battle, but
continued her work by writing a book on her experience
with Celiac. When We Come Back, Jennifer talks about how
Fresh Kills became the synthesis of her experiences. At what
point did fresh kills or the concept of fresh kills
(29:10):
start in your brain?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So I mentioned that I grew up around mafia, It
started way back then, because, like I said, I'm that
kid that was constantly like why so when these girls
that I grew up around were so violent? Like I
saw a lot of violence as a kid from the neighborhood.
(29:32):
It was just a tough neighborhood and a lot of
big mafia community, and I just always thought, like, why
are they so angry? Why are they so angry? And
it stayed with me and I thought, you know, when
I left Stettnan, I thought, well, it must be because
their families are involved in this, and like I guess
that would make me angry. But as I went through
(29:52):
my life and I started to go into my career
and then around I don't know, MID started to that
anger and that rage that I saw started to feel
very familiar to me. And I thought, Oh, it's not
about who their family is. It's like they were born
into the family and they didn't have a choice. And
(30:15):
that's how I felt. I felt like my life, whether
it be from doctors at the point, from the business,
or just from society, tell me you're a girl, So
this is your road. You're a girl, this is your hormone.
Like what you're saying doesn't really penetrate. So this is
(30:36):
the map. And what if I don't want to go
forward with that map? What if I had my own map?
And I realized that it was more about that rage,
that anger was more about choice. So that's where I
realized this story started to really just it would keep
me awake at night, and especially when I would hit
(30:58):
walls in the business of wanting to do more. It
would be like this little voice going, you know what
you're supposed to do, write fresh kills, and it was
like shut up. And it just got to a point
where I was honestly so tired of hearing myself complaining,
Like who wants no one wants to hear you complain.
And I also realize no one's coming. And as you
(31:18):
get older, and it's really plain and clear, it becomes
really clear really no one cares, and that like you're
getting older, you're lucky, you have a job, You're lucky
if you even get a call, you're how old. Seriously,
you go past thirty, they're like, man, boom bye, you'll
start it'll start slowing down. It's it's insane, but it's true.
(31:41):
And I just was like, I need to do something.
Stop complaining about what you're seeing. Stop complaining is not
enough female directors and writers. Stop complaining about where things
are for women. Stop. No one is interested, no one.
I'm not interested in hearing you anymore. Like seriously, you're annoying.
So do something you think you can do it, do it.
And it was like okay, And I really got to
(32:03):
a place where I was you can only do something
so much when your heart isn't involved before it starts
to die. And I really felt like my soul was dying.
So I said, Okay, I'm going to sit down and
write and I'm going to do it or I quit.
And that was it, and I just kept going, what
(32:23):
do you want to do? We're gonna be husband and wife,
We're gonna have kids. Your father's giving us the house.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Maybe I don't want to house my father where the
people and family?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Your people stop up and realize that.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
You want that boy?
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I know exactly who that is. I always have It's
my father. I know I'm.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Supposed to God, no girl, have respect.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You went by the rud and his mom. I did
not you. I'm your father.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
The three main characters in the film, the two young
girls and you as the mother, really deal with the
violence and the anger around them, the way they internalize
their anger and the violence around them in three very
different ways. One of the girls becomes much more violent herself.
One of the girls internalizes a lot of it and
(33:27):
tries to find a way out. And your role as
the mother, you come to it with a place of
acceptance and complacency.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's so complex because it's an acceptance because there is
no way out. So it's not an acceptance of like peace,
I accept It's an acceptance through a beatdown of soul.
But it'll come out in her reach to her daughters,
(34:00):
or why are you going to leave? Why do you
get to leave? Why do you get to do that?
And honestly, I think that's one of the biggest problems
we have as women. We've been helping women. Yay, I
love that quote and I want it to be so true,
But there is something when you see another woman doing
well and you're still hitting your head up against the wall.
(34:23):
There is a bit of like, why you not me.
I'm not condemning anybody for it, because I do understand
the struggles, but until we really grapple with that and
make peace with that that her wins, my win, we
really can't go forward. So walking that line with the
mother of really wanting better for your daughters truly, but
(34:46):
also why her not me, it's a really fine line.
And I saw that sadly growing up, and it was like,
do so well, go do it. Don't forget me, because
if you forget me, I'm coming for you. Like and
that is that I don't know what that is. That
comes from a deep space of like, I didn't get
(35:09):
these opportunities.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You can tell Fresh Kills comes from a deeply personal space.
For Jennifer even when you can't identify with the characters' choices,
you can relate to their emotions, And I would imagine
it's because her writing comes from true honesty.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I really do believe in the amount of film festivals
we've played this movie, which has been great and amazing
to see it with so many different types of audiences,
these characters are touching people, male and female in ways
that are so beautiful to me. To me, that's always
(35:46):
what art's supposed to be. Its supposed to make you
think and question and talk and like, let's talk about
the human experience. So it is really doing that. And
because they're not all perfect people like you said, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
What is one thing that at the time you saw
as a real negative, but now in retrospect you see
it's having really built you to who you are now
and what you've accomplished.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I honestly think all of the all of all of
the pitfalls and all of the hurt and all of
the pain, and all of the struggle and all of
the violence that I saw and the like I said
before it, I would not have been able to do
what I just did if I didn't go through all
(36:35):
of that. And I really do mean that because this
was the hardest thing I have ever done. The writing
was beautiful. Writing is tricky, but it's beautiful. Process It's hard,
you know, being on set twenty one days for time periods,
no money, COVID winter, it's hard. But that's not even
(36:57):
what I'm talking about. That was beauty, utiful because I'm
still in the work. If I can be in the work,
I don't care. I'll work fifty hour days, I don't care.
But it was still the struggle of getting a female
project done that still to this day is a war.
(37:18):
It really is. So if I didn't go through all
of those things, I don't think I would have been
able to do this. I will say this is one
of the best films I've ever seen. Thank you, really
think you really.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Moved me so deeply. And being in the theater the experience.
You're right, everybody was engaged and the energy in the room,
everybody was so with it, like with every beat of
the story. I appreciate that, and they really are. And
not to toot my own horn, that's not who I am.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
But you are not the first person that has said
that to me. Like I will say this, if you
care about seeing different stories. If you care about seeing
real human stories and artistic expression and connection with others
as human beings, you really have to support the independent films.
(38:14):
You really, really and I beg you to come and
support this one in the theater because it will send
a message that these films. Because we had an amazing
festival run, We've won awards, and still we were told
by the industry like, well, you don't have any stars,
no one cares, and that's not true. People don't need
(38:39):
big stars to care about story, about human story. They
don't care. And we cannot just monetize art and we
just can't. We are going to be in such a
scary play soon, especially with AI. We have to champion
these smaller films. So Fresh Kills is out now, and
(39:02):
please go buy a ticket and tell you friends.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, thank you so much for joining us. About everybody
go out and see the movie. So I really appreciate
you doing this. Oh, thank you so much. Absolutely thanks.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
After a full festival season, Jennifer is busy promoting the
official release of Fresh Kills, which is this Friday, June fourteenth.
Buy your tickets and go see it. Trust me, it's
worth the trip.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
To the Theater.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
You can follow Jennifer on Instagram at Jspisito. She has
some amazing and hilarious promotional content on there right now,
so be sure to check it out.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And if you go see fresh.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Kills, take a photo and tag both Jennifer and us
we can see talk to you next week.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
If you made it this far, you're a true Pivoter,
so thanks for being part of this community. I hope
you enjoyed this episode, and if you did leave us
a rating, please be nice your friends about us. To
learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at
she Pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter
where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content, or
(40:10):
on our website she Pivots the Podcast Talk to You
Next Week special thanks to the she Pivots team, Executive
producer Emily eda Velosik, Associate producer and social media connoisseur
Hannah Cousins, Research director Christine Dickinson, Events and logistics coordinator
Madeline Sonovak, and audio editor and mixer Nina Pollock.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I endorse she Pivots
Welcome back to She Pivots. I'm Jennifer Esposito.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk with
women who dared to pivot out of one career and
into something new and explore how their personal lives impacted
these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. This week,
I'm thrilled to share the story of Jennifer Esposito. Many
(00:36):
of you know her best from shows like NCIS or
Blue Bloods, but it's her latest pivot into writing, directing,
and producing that is truly the amalgamation of her career
and her life. Fresh Kills, which comes out this Friday,
June fourteenth, is Jennifer's directorial debut, and it is truly
a work of art. What I love about the film
(00:57):
is that it flips the script on the typical mob
boss genre, centering the experiences of the women, not the men.
It explores the rage and the subsequent violence that manifests
in this community of women who were born into a
volatile life not of their choosing. Jennifer wrote Fresh Kills
after seeing so much pain and rage around her growing
(01:17):
up in Staten Island. It was something that stuck with
her and something she couldn't understand. It both fascinated and
haunted her, that is until she too went through a
series of life experiences that made her rage. After starting
off her career working with Spike Lee and John Singleton,
(01:38):
Jennifer was blacklisted by what she describes as a quote
Harvey Weinstein esque producer. Shortly after, she went through a
series of intense health issues and was passed from doctor
to doctor without proper care or diagnosis. She made adjustments
along the way, and she did her best to make
it in the industry that she had dreamt of since
(01:58):
she was a child. But she was tough, she was angry,
and soon Fresh Kills was born. I can tell you
as someone who had a chance to see the film already,
it is an incredible film. You can feel the fury
and you empathize with the battles the women in the
movie are fighting. But now after hearing Jennifer's story, I
(02:20):
can see it all clicked together. As the character's battle
with access to opportunity, so does Jennifer. As the characters
rage about the lack of opportunity because of their circumstances,
so does Jennifer. It is a beautiful film made by
a beautiful and inspiring woman. So after you listen to
this episode, be sure to go see Fresh Kills in
(02:40):
the movie theaters.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Enjoy. Jennifer Esposito is my name? What do I do well?
I've been an actress for two almost thirty years. Tell
us about where are you from? Where did you grow up? Like?
Tell us a little picture for us, Little Jennifer. I
was born in Brooklyn, was there until probably third grade,
(03:06):
and then we moved to Staten Island and that's where
it all starts. I was that kid who always needed
to understand why. I'm still very much like that, Like
if things don't add up for me, I'll constantly be
trying to figure it out. Like that's part of the
reason why I don't sleep, because if there's an un
(03:29):
answered question, which there usually is about life for the
world or work or whatever, I need to understand and digest.
Oh that makes sense now. So I was that kid
that really needed to understand why. But there was always
a feeling of I feel like I'm different than my
(03:50):
surroundings and not looking down on any one kind of way.
I just always felt like I see things differently, and
as I grew up it remain very true. Remember in
the eighth grade year book, I put, oh, I want
to be an actress, and I was ridiculed because where
I grew up, it didn't seem like dreams mattered, It
(04:13):
didn't seem like future mattered. It was a very interesting culture,
and especially for the young women I felt. I mean,
I look at that now and can see it, but
I didn't know it then. But I remember always thinking, like,
you know, it wasn't the first priority of just having
a boyfriend or looking cute or talking about you know,
(04:36):
did you see Sally's dress? Like I don't care about
Sally's dress? Like I was like listening to like Bette
Midler sing the Rose, Like why is she seeing like that?
It's so deep? Like what does this movie mean? I
would write poetry and I'd like, you know, these things
that just didn't quite fit to my family, didn't quite
(04:57):
fit to my surroundings. So I just alway felt like, oh,
there's something else that I was supposed to leave, and
like I was supposed to leave and go and go
do this thing and be this thing and create. So
I knew that as a little kid, and as I
got older, I realized what that was. And I used
(05:19):
to be plopped in front of a TV and I
would watch Grease over and over and over. I knew
every dance move. I would watch West Side Story when
I was a kid, and I'd throw myself off the
couch pretending I was a jets I was a jet person.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And you connected with acting, singing, dancing, writing, Did you
pursue all of those equally?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
No, So I remember wanting to. I remember telling my mom,
this is what I want to do. Can you take
me on auditions? And was like, absolutely not, it's not happening.
Do you want to do that when you're eighteen, go
do it? But not doing it now? And honestly, I
don't know exactly if it was for the right reason
that I'm going to say, but it was a good
decision because being a child in this business, I cringe.
(06:11):
I cringe. It's hard enough for an adult. For a
child in your formative years, I really do, it's scary.
So again, I knew that I wanted to do that,
but I didn't know exactly what that was. But I
assumed it was an actress because that's what I saw.
(06:31):
I never saw a female filmmaker. I didn't see that
I didn't see about It was always if I did
see that, it was a man. So when I did
get older, I left at eighteen and I put myself
through acting school Lee Strausberg. Waiting tables. Do you remember
(06:51):
where you waited tables? Oh? Yes, do I remember? It
was the coffee shop. I waited tables with Maxwell the singer,
with Tate Diggs, with like a whole bunch of like
now they're you know, famous, and went on their way.
But it was like this bunch of kids with dreams
and we would wait tables and then go out dancing
(07:11):
until like the next day, and like had to blast.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Bright eyed and bushy tailed. Jennifer began finding her way
in the industry she had loved since she was a kid,
but it wasn't as creative or as easy as she
had once dreamed.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
But as you get into the business and you realize,
oh wait, I'm trying to be an actress to understand
that why and tell those stories and talk about that
injustice and create and yeah, and then you're giving your
lines and it's like, I'm a hand in foot model.
My first job, that was my line on loving and
(07:50):
I said, Hi, I'm a hand and foot model? You
want to take my pictures? And I was like, is
this it? Is this what I are the tables for?
And something never set right with me about the kind
of things that I was was placed in front of me. Yeah.
(08:12):
So yeah, that's where it kind of started to like,
oh wait a minute, but it still felt worth it. Well.
After school, you know, I did a lot of plays
and stuff for no money, and like all that stuff,
and that that's where it's like, ah, this is feeding you,
you know that, because it's all about expression, right, any
kind of creativity, and that is something I need. I know,
(08:34):
I need, Like if I'm not creating something, I get depressed,
Like I need to create. So I would do these
plays for nothing, and I was in school and doing
these student in films and whatever. But when I finally
got an agent and they sent me out for my
it was my first audition and it was for Loving
(08:54):
and it was those five lines of I'm a hen
and foot model. Are you kidding me? I was like,
I fucking made it. Oh, was like Hollywood's calling any
day now, any day. I was like, this is this
is amazing. I thought it was incredible. So yes, it
didn't happen right that that the realization of like wait,
(09:16):
because I was just so happy to be there, and
that's wonderful, but you know I did want more.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I mean, I think that's how a lot of women.
I think that could apply in so many contexts, so
many content like we're just so happy to be in
the room, like percent that we put up with a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That brings me to a huge point because I teach,
I've always taught throughout my career, and I teach a
lot now. I had to get back to just the
work and the art, and I teach now, and I
teach a lot of women. And we have something called
the I'm sorry monologues, and swomen at the moment they
felt one of them that they felt they lost themselves,
(09:56):
and the I'm sorry is either to themselves or it's
to someone or it's ironic I'm sorry, like I'm not
fucking sorry. And I cannot tell you how powerful this
has become. And one of the biggest things that comes
up is this notion of being grateful, grateful to just
(10:17):
be there, grateful for just being around and being able
to sit in the same room. And what I keep
challenging is I can be grateful, because I struggled with
this for many years. It's like, but you have a job,
be grateful, but this isn't the job that it's not
even not the job I want. It's I can do more.
(10:38):
And when you say, as a woman, I can do
more and I want more, you're condemned. And it's like,
but it can be both. I can be grateful to
be here and thank you very much for the job,
but I can also say I want more.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Jennifer had big dreams and she knew what she had
to give, and unlike so many women, she believed in it.
But this was the early aughts, and women who were
too loud or too outspoken, or didn't fit into the
quote ideal version of a Hollywood star were put on
the back burner. Jennifer resented it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So when you speak up for any reason in my business,
it's like, oh, that's so difficult. Who wants to work
with anybody who's asking questions? If you are a female
and you're going to ask too many questions in that space,
there's someone behind you that's not going to ask questions,
and the days easier. It's like, and I do get that,
(11:33):
but it puts women in a position that they know
if they want more and if they speak up on
any behalf of like just saying, hey, agent, do you
think I could see something? It's like this one. But
in the beginning, I heard you're too ethnic, you're to this,
(11:53):
you're to New York, you sound like you're from New York.
You're this, you're too sexy, not sexy enough, You're not this,
you're not white. I was like, what what am? I?
What am? I? Then tell me what I am? And
I really did spend an awful lot of time trying
to be this all American. What they were telling me
(12:15):
all American was, which was blonde, blue eyed, quiet and
not make anybody scared. I get be you know, likable
to every And I tried for years because I wanted
the roles, because I wanted the roles, and I was
being told, no, you're going to play you know, the
(12:36):
friend of that girl or not even and I thought, well, okay,
I have to try and be Julie Roberts. And it
took many years until I realized, like I am, I'm
not Julie Roberts. I'm just not her in any way,
shape or form. I mean, she's lovely and she's great actress,
but I'm not her, and it definitely, it definitely took
(12:59):
its toll over time, time for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Finally, Jennifer landed a big role in the Spike Lee
film Summer of Sam.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Working with someone like him on a role that was real,
that was made for an actor, and I was an actor,
like I studied for years and I love that work.
That was incredible. To then go back and like do
just whatever. It was hard. But what happened after that
(13:28):
is I after that movie came out, I kind of
that's when it was like I catapulted to Hollywood and
I was thrown into a lot of different situations, and
one in particular was with an amazing who's now passed
filmmaker and I remember he hired me, but then he
called me into his office a week later and he said,
(13:49):
I'm letting you know no one wants you here, and
I was like, oh, what does that mean? Like what
I think? I was twenty six and he was fighting
with the producer on the movie, and a very long,
painful story short, I became a casualty in the fight,
as did a few other cast members. But this was
(14:12):
an notorious brutal producer, a Harvey Weinstein esque type of person.
He literally had the power and used it to completely
end a young girl's career at twenty six years old.
So he fired me for no reason. He wanted someone
else and he got her. But then, like anybody that
(14:35):
called and was like, hey, I want to hire her,
he was like, don't hire her. Said I was a
drug addict, locked myself in the trailer. Never happened. I
don't do drugs, never did. If you do, great, she's
not me. And that was a really, really painful time
because he literally that kid who was waiting tables and
that kid who had this dream since she was a baby.
(14:57):
He literally took it because he could and killed it.
And I got dropped by my agency and they were like,
we know what he did, but we can't help you
because he's who he is and he's that big and
we have to have clients that work for him. So
I casually got moved to the desk of the assistant
(15:18):
and then casually out the door. And I couldn't get work.
I didn't have an agent and I'm a manager for
two and a half years. How did you come out
of it? After those two and a half years, I
had a new team, and I remember actually the conversation.
There was a movie that they had interested in me
(15:41):
and my new team had to sign for me to say, like,
this person's not a drug addict. And the reason why
I know this, By the way, I forgot if it
was Spike or this filmmaker that has passed. It was
John Singleton. One of them called me to tell me
what was going on, because no, I didn't understand what
(16:01):
was going on, because what had happened is I was
getting an offer to do Charlie's Angels, which was the
biggest of the biggest movie at the time for a
young woman, and all of a sudden it didn't happen.
And I was like, wait a minute. I was in
the room with the ladies, like this was my job.
What happened? And we found out from Yeah that he
(16:22):
put the kaibash on one of the biggest things that
ever happened in my career. Could have happened. That's unbelievable. Yeah,
so I had to live with that. But like I said,
he was up here. I mean he was at every oscar,
every and I was begging for work when I was
right at that cusp of like I was going to
break into a new place where you know, you get
(16:44):
something like Charlie's Angels, and not that that's like the
work I want to do, but it was. It was
you know, at the time, it would have been a blast,
and there were great girls that I got to meet,
but it also would have opened doors for me, you know,
to do work that I would have loved. But instead
it was like going through my money broke, traumatized. Yeah,
(17:06):
at oh, how did you have the strength to stay
in the field at all. It was a hard time,
but it was also a beautiful time because if I
wasn't that kid, I would have never been this woman.
And I'm very proud of who I am and very
proud of what I've done. I know for a fact
that that didn't happen with that producer and my road
(17:29):
was easier. I would have never wrote and directed what
I just did because, as I've said to a few
people that know me well, Fresh Kills, my film was
for the twenty six year old kid who got slaughtered.
I gave her her career back in the way that
she could do it, not the way someone else told
(17:51):
me I could do it. I gave that to that
kid because she I needed to right the wrong again.
It's that thing in my brain that won't let me
rest like that wasn't fair. Things were taken from me
that I didn't agree to, and then you set me
on a course that I didn't deserve. That's not okay.
So my film really was to that kid.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Before we get fully into fresh Kills, we're going to
dive into her battle with not only her health, but
with the healthcare system and the all too common issues
of not being heard as a woman in pain. But first,
a quick word from our sponsors. Let's layer in the
personal with the professional here a little. When was it
(18:38):
that you started to get really sick?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So I always had, uh, they would say, a sensitive stomach,
and I was a sensitive I was sensitive, so I'm
very sensitive. But what that does is it really makes
your body in this state of attack kind of nervous
all the time. So, and I grew up in a
house that was it's a little insane, to be honest.
(19:02):
And I was very scared inside my house for different reasons.
And I was very scared outside of my house because
I grew up around a lot of mafia and the
girls always wanted to kill me, so I was scared.
I just thought fear was your emotion every day, Like
I there's a line in the movie It's like every
day of my life, I'm afraid, and I don't feel
it anymore. That's how I just existed. So my nervous
(19:24):
system was constantly at a state of panic. And I
saw my mother deal with anxiety disorder, and of course
I started to have panic attacks and anxiety issues at
like thirteen, and my Mom's like, here, take some out
of it, and it's fine, I have it too, and
it's like, that's probably not the right answer. But so
I kind of thought, because I saw her like this
(19:46):
and I grew up like this, that oh, this is
just life. This is I'm supposed to be vibrating all
the time, and I'm supposed to be sick stomach all
the time. And here take peptobysmal if your stomach is sick,
and here taken out a van if that's not working here.
And it was just like, that's not correct, and I
really didn't know that. So when I started, when I
(20:08):
moved out, and you know, eighteen nineteen, I started to realize, like, wait,
this isn't right. But I was in such a spiral
of like work in school and work in school, that
I actually went to get a wisdom tooth extracted, and
they gave me too much anesthesia and threw off my
chemistry already that was vibrating in such a way that
(20:30):
I became a gloraphobic and I had to move back
in with my family. And a lot of people don't
know this, but I was. I literally moved back in
and I didn't leave the house for like a year.
I was really really not well. I would have panic
attacks that they were really bad, and had to relearn
how to walk up the street. I remember my dad's saying,
(20:54):
just walk with me, Just walk with me up the street.
It was like nope, I can't do it. Like the light,
everything would just send me off. And the depression. They
put me on so much medication. And it was then
that I started to learn how vitamins and food affected you,
because in my house, like oh, here's a bagel, here,
I have some pasta. So from then I started to
(21:17):
really research vitamins and food and all that, and I
got myself on a schedule and started taking B vitamins
because I knew that had to do with nervous system,
and so I actually healed myself through that and then
got back out into the world, but still always had
an underlying like oh my stomach or maybe it was this,
maybe is that, But I was more aware, so I
through that throughout the years, I went to every kind
(21:39):
of doctor you would imagine, from you know, natural path
to regular doctor to gi then I was going to
like healers and like whatever just helped me. And everybody
would chalk it up to your emotional you're sensitive, you're
a woman, it's your hormones, it's And it got to
(22:01):
the point when I was probably around thirty thirty early thirties,
things started to hit the fan. Also, as you can
hear my career, the stress of that was so huge,
so that taking that in trying to be someone I
wasn't all of it. I just broke down. My body
(22:23):
started to break down in a really serious way, like
my nails started to fall off, my skin was peeling off,
my hair started fallout and clumps. The panic attacks started
to come again in a major way, like a major way.
It wasn't now, I wasn't somewhere. I'd be on my
couch at home, and all of a sudden, this wave
(22:44):
would come up, like I got to get out of here,
like awful, or I'd just pass out, fall asleep, and
then like I was working during this time, and it'd
be like, all of a sudden, you know, where's Jennifer
for lunch? Or and I had to sleep, had to sleep,
and I'd get recurring sinus infections and until the day
(23:04):
I never forget. I was on set. There's a show
I was doing called Samantha Who. And I was on
set and it was in between a take and a
tooth fell out of my mouth, like literally, I was like,
wait a minute. I was like, is my tooth? Like
your tooth just fell And it was like there's something
for a man. There's something like I've been going to
(23:26):
doc for years and I would be vegan and then
I would be you know, everything I could try. I
was trying it and nobody was helping me. And again
it was just like.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You're a woman.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Here, take some some adavan, take some prozac. And I
was like, but that's not it. And now I am
depressed because I'm not well and nobody's listening to me.
So I finally went to this one one doctor and
she was a female general practitioner, and and she said, Okay,
I'm going to figure it out. And she called me
maybe five days later and she said, Jennifer, you have
(23:59):
the worst case of ciliac disease I think I've ever seen.
I don't know how you're existing, because if anyone doesn't know,
silic disease is basically the villi that's around your small intestine,
which are responsible to take nutrients in from your food
and give it to the rest of your body to
keep you alive and functioning. They die and mine were
(24:21):
like beyond damage, so nothing was getting fed. That's why
my nervous system was shot, my bones like all of
this stuff was going on. So I was pretty sick.
I was really really sick at that point. And that
lasted for quite a while, and there were there were
professional repercussions for it. Oh my god, absolutely. I remember.
(24:44):
I was supposed to leave for a job maybe five
days after I got diagnosed, and I was told just
don't eat gluten. And I went to go do this
job and I literally collapsed like one off. I was
supposed to do an episode or something, and I was like,
I want up in the hospital, like you go through
a detox and no one tells you about that. I
went through such a bad detox from gluten. I wound
(25:08):
up in the hospital like it feels like you're coming
off heroin, Like really, it's awful. So then I couldn't
work and do anything. And then what I'm sure referring
to is then when I was able to move but slowly,
Blue Bloods came around and it was, you know, pitched
to me is like, you're going to be a partner,
(25:28):
but this show is about a family and you're going
to be part time. And I was like, great, that's
I can do that, and it's in New York and
it just wasn't that, and my pay was that, and
it progressed that. It was like, well, it's not that anymore,
so can we get the correct pay, because then I
can get help. I can get someone to help me
because everything I have to eat is has to be
(25:49):
by me. Because I had not only allergic to gluten,
I was allergic to eggs. I was allergic to dairy.
I was allergic to soy like I it was and
I was so so it was like two years before
I was like even anywhere near moving. Those people aren't
there anymore. I will say I have been back to
Blue Blood since and they're lovely and I really do
(26:12):
like them. But at the time, the people that were there,
they just said no, And it was like, what do
you mean, No, My co star is getting four times
the amount of me and I'm doing the same work,
And it was like, So it was about the fact
that I needed help because I was working so much
(26:32):
and I wasn't well. So yeah, it just turned out unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
At this point, Jennifer was ready for a change, a pivot.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Dare I say?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
The industry had taken its toll on her, and as
she learned more and more about the impact of food
on her health, she decided to open a gluten free bakery.
In twenty twelve, she opened Jennifer's Way in the East
Village to create a space for people with celiac to
eat safely.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Only about the food. It's about the nostalgia. I used
to walk up the block with my dad when I
was a kid and get a jelly donut. That was
like a bonding moment. And I didn't you think like
birthdays and like Christmas and like those things that bring
family or friends. That was all hard now, so there's
(27:20):
more to it. So I thought, let me open a bakery.
Why not. I hate that business, let me get let
me get in another business. And it was wonderful for
a while. It really was wonderful. It was a joy
to have parents bring their kid in. And I never
forget this man came in the first week we're open
and he put his little boy on the counter and said,
(27:42):
you can have whatever you want, because that's always the
thing with silly acts, like we'll go to dinner and
it's like, not what do we want, it's what can
we eat safely? And that's not fun, especially for kid
Like my whole childhood was about like what food are
we going to eat? You know, or your cousin or
your friends, Like let's be cookies, let's get pizza kids.
(28:04):
It's not fun. So it was just a nice experience
to be able to do that. But that didn't last. No.
I mean, we had big opportunities to you know what
I mean. I had some huge opportunities on the table,
but the partners I wound up taking on, you know,
wanted to change some ingredients in an unhealthy way, and
(28:26):
I just unfortunately the integrity I can't go out on
my name, you know, to be in that kind of
business when the margins are so low, you know, it's
a part of a business brain that I couldn't lessen
the quality just to make a dime. Yeah, I couldn't
do it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Jennifer left the business after a difficult legal battle, but
continued her work by writing a book on her experience
with Celiac. When We Come Back, Jennifer talks about how
Fresh Kills became the synthesis of her experiences. At what
point did fresh kills or the concept of fresh kills
(29:10):
start in your brain?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So I mentioned that I grew up around mafia, It
started way back then, because, like I said, I'm that
kid that was constantly like why so when these girls
that I grew up around were so violent? Like I
saw a lot of violence as a kid from the neighborhood.
(29:32):
It was just a tough neighborhood and a lot of
big mafia community, and I just always thought, like, why
are they so angry? Why are they so angry? And
it stayed with me and I thought, you know, when
I left Stettnan, I thought, well, it must be because
their families are involved in this, and like I guess
that would make me angry. But as I went through
(29:52):
my life and I started to go into my career
and then around I don't know, MID started to that
anger and that rage that I saw started to feel
very familiar to me. And I thought, Oh, it's not
about who their family is. It's like they were born
into the family and they didn't have a choice. And
(30:15):
that's how I felt. I felt like my life, whether
it be from doctors at the point, from the business,
or just from society, tell me you're a girl, So
this is your road. You're a girl, this is your hormone.
Like what you're saying doesn't really penetrate. So this is
(30:36):
the map. And what if I don't want to go
forward with that map? What if I had my own map?
And I realized that it was more about that rage,
that anger was more about choice. So that's where I
realized this story started to really just it would keep
me awake at night, and especially when I would hit
(30:58):
walls in the business of wanting to do more. It
would be like this little voice going, you know what
you're supposed to do, write fresh kills, and it was
like shut up. And it just got to a point
where I was honestly so tired of hearing myself complaining,
Like who wants no one wants to hear you complain.
And I also realize no one's coming. And as you
(31:18):
get older, and it's really plain and clear, it becomes
really clear really no one cares, and that like you're
getting older, you're lucky, you have a job, You're lucky
if you even get a call, you're how old. Seriously,
you go past thirty, they're like, man, boom bye, you'll
start it'll start slowing down. It's it's insane, but it's true.
(31:41):
And I just was like, I need to do something.
Stop complaining about what you're seeing. Stop complaining is not
enough female directors and writers. Stop complaining about where things
are for women. Stop. No one is interested, no one.
I'm not interested in hearing you anymore. Like seriously, you're annoying.
So do something you think you can do it, do it.
And it was like okay, And I really got to
(32:03):
a place where I was you can only do something
so much when your heart isn't involved before it starts
to die. And I really felt like my soul was dying.
So I said, Okay, I'm going to sit down and
write and I'm going to do it or I quit.
And that was it, and I just kept going, what
(32:23):
do you want to do? We're gonna be husband and wife,
We're gonna have kids. Your father's giving us the house.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Maybe I don't want to house my father where the
people and family?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Your people stop up and realize that.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
You want that boy?
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I know exactly who that is. I always have It's
my father. I know I'm.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Supposed to God, no girl, have respect.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You went by the rud and his mom. I did
not you. I'm your father.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
The three main characters in the film, the two young
girls and you as the mother, really deal with the
violence and the anger around them, the way they internalize
their anger and the violence around them in three very
different ways. One of the girls becomes much more violent herself.
One of the girls internalizes a lot of it and
(33:27):
tries to find a way out. And your role as
the mother, you come to it with a place of
acceptance and complacency.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's so complex because it's an acceptance because there is
no way out. So it's not an acceptance of like peace,
I accept It's an acceptance through a beatdown of soul.
But it'll come out in her reach to her daughters,
(34:00):
or why are you going to leave? Why do you
get to leave? Why do you get to do that?
And honestly, I think that's one of the biggest problems
we have as women. We've been helping women. Yay, I
love that quote and I want it to be so true,
But there is something when you see another woman doing
well and you're still hitting your head up against the wall.
(34:23):
There is a bit of like, why you not me.
I'm not condemning anybody for it, because I do understand
the struggles, but until we really grapple with that and
make peace with that that her wins, my win, we
really can't go forward. So walking that line with the
mother of really wanting better for your daughters truly, but
(34:46):
also why her not me, it's a really fine line.
And I saw that sadly growing up, and it was like,
do so well, go do it. Don't forget me, because
if you forget me, I'm coming for you. Like and
that is that I don't know what that is. That
comes from a deep space of like, I didn't get
(35:09):
these opportunities.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You can tell Fresh Kills comes from a deeply personal space.
For Jennifer even when you can't identify with the characters' choices,
you can relate to their emotions, And I would imagine
it's because her writing comes from true honesty.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I really do believe in the amount of film festivals
we've played this movie, which has been great and amazing
to see it with so many different types of audiences,
these characters are touching people, male and female in ways
that are so beautiful to me. To me, that's always
(35:46):
what art's supposed to be. Its supposed to make you
think and question and talk and like, let's talk about
the human experience. So it is really doing that. And
because they're not all perfect people like you said, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
What is one thing that at the time you saw
as a real negative, but now in retrospect you see
it's having really built you to who you are now
and what you've accomplished.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I honestly think all of the all of all of
the pitfalls and all of the hurt and all of
the pain, and all of the struggle and all of
the violence that I saw and the like I said
before it, I would not have been able to do
what I just did if I didn't go through all
(36:35):
of that. And I really do mean that because this
was the hardest thing I have ever done. The writing
was beautiful. Writing is tricky, but it's beautiful. Process It's hard,
you know, being on set twenty one days for time periods,
no money, COVID winter, it's hard. But that's not even
(36:57):
what I'm talking about. That was beauty, utiful because I'm
still in the work. If I can be in the work,
I don't care. I'll work fifty hour days, I don't care.
But it was still the struggle of getting a female
project done that still to this day is a war.
(37:18):
It really is. So if I didn't go through all
of those things, I don't think I would have been
able to do this. I will say this is one
of the best films I've ever seen. Thank you, really
think you really.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Moved me so deeply. And being in the theater the experience.
You're right, everybody was engaged and the energy in the room,
everybody was so with it, like with every beat of
the story. I appreciate that, and they really are. And
not to toot my own horn, that's not who I am.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
But you are not the first person that has said
that to me. Like I will say this, if you
care about seeing different stories. If you care about seeing
real human stories and artistic expression and connection with others
as human beings, you really have to support the independent films.
(38:14):
You really, really and I beg you to come and
support this one in the theater because it will send
a message that these films. Because we had an amazing
festival run, We've won awards, and still we were told
by the industry like, well, you don't have any stars,
no one cares, and that's not true. People don't need
(38:39):
big stars to care about story, about human story. They
don't care. And we cannot just monetize art and we
just can't. We are going to be in such a
scary play soon, especially with AI. We have to champion
these smaller films. So Fresh Kills is out now, and
(39:02):
please go buy a ticket and tell you friends.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Well, thank you so much for joining us. About everybody
go out and see the movie. So I really appreciate
you doing this. Oh, thank you so much. Absolutely thanks.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
After a full festival season, Jennifer is busy promoting the
official release of Fresh Kills, which is this Friday, June fourteenth.
Buy your tickets and go see it. Trust me, it's
worth the trip.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
To the Theater.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
You can follow Jennifer on Instagram at Jspisito. She has
some amazing and hilarious promotional content on there right now,
so be sure to check it out.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And if you go see fresh.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Kills, take a photo and tag both Jennifer and us
we can see talk to you next week.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
If you made it this far, you're a true Pivoter,
so thanks for being part of this community. I hope
you enjoyed this episode, and if you did leave us
a rating, please be nice your friends about us. To
learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at
she Pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter
where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content, or
(40:10):
on our website she Pivots the Podcast Talk to You
Next Week special thanks to the she Pivots team, Executive
producer Emily eda Velosik, Associate producer and social media connoisseur
Hannah Cousins, Research director Christine Dickinson, Events and logistics coordinator
Madeline Sonovak, and audio editor and mixer Nina Pollock.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I endorse she Pivots
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