Chelsea and Shoshanna Handler

Kate and Oliver sit down with Chelsea Handler and her sister Shoshanna for their first-ever “Sibling Revelry” guest interview. They share funny stories from their childhood, how Shoshanna’s life changed when Chelsea came into the world, why Shoshanna reported Chelsea to the FBI, the impact of the loss of their brother Chet, and how it took some time to get to where their relationship is now.

 

Executive Producers: Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim Sarna

Produced by Allison Bresnick

Editor: Josh Windisch

Music by Mark Hudson

This show is brought to you by Cloud10 and powered by Simplecast.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling ravalry. No, no, sibling,
don't do that with your mouth, si Vely, that's good.

(00:39):
This is the first time we've sat together for Sibling
Revelry and interviewed siblings, and we did sisters for the
first time, and it was Chelsea and shan Chelsea Handler
and Shoshanna Handler. Were you nervous, no, because we we
I know Chelsea very well, you know, and I was excited,

(01:02):
a little nervous, apprehensive than I got here saw of
Chelsea and I was just super pumped. Yeah, I think,
I think really excited. Not only that, but we then
it's like we walked around the house a little bit
and we were chatting. We just started immediately talking about
stuff and we're like wait, wait, wait, wait wait, we
got a hold. It was like running into the room

(01:22):
where we're going to do the podcast so that we
wouldn't you know, we get it all on right, But
I don't think we could have asked for anything better.
That was It was pretty so great. I believe tears
were shed within the first minute and a half of
I cried you did well? I mean it was you know, look, Chelsea.
It's interesting because her book that she had come out.

(01:42):
If anybody hasn't read it, it's a must read. She
really goes there about her life, you know, she goes
there about the death of her brother, and we just
that's where you and I just completely lost it. Well
it's just I mean I can't even imagine. Yeah, you know,
you have these tragedies in your family, and how do

(02:03):
you get through them and how did they inform who
you are? And how did that completely change Chelsea's life
in Shoshana's life. And it is also great to everyone
knows who Chelsea is. I mean, she is out there
and she is honest and truthful and open, and she's
a celebrity. Nobody knows who Shoshan is, right, And it
was just really fun to see the dynamic, to see

(02:26):
the opposition of character and but see the thread of
just like pure love between the two of them, and
to hear the stories about how it took a minute
to get to a place of real love between them,
and that's a lesson here, you know, and they expressed

(02:48):
that a little bit when we ask them basically not
to give up because you never know what it's going
to happen. There's so you know, it's it's one of
those things where you know, you you know that being
our first time out, she's just so available, you know,
Chelsea is so available to share her story. And I
have so much admiration for that because I know for us,

(03:11):
we do a lot of protecting. You know, we protect
certain things about our life and our family, which makes
sense because you know, there's a lot of people in
our family that want their privacy, so it's kind of
challenging for us sometimes to just come out with you know,
this is our family dynamic. But I think that this
for you and I, we're both very comfortable talking about

(03:33):
ourselves and wanting to share. What you're saying saying is
is that after the first year of this podcast, it's
just going to be you and me. Our entire family
will have disowned us. This is literally I can't wake
There'll be one time, you know what, someone will come
up with something and Mom will be like, you know,
I don't I don't like this, right, but but no,

(03:57):
I think you know, we always say, we of course
there's things for me and you you know, everyone's different.
Chelsea's like, just puts it out there. I have so
much respect for that. I think it's really brave. And
and then she's gone even deeper inside of herself and
she's just still putting it out there. That's what we

(04:19):
talked about with her a little bit. It's fun to
watch her, honestly, go from book one to this book,
and there's a progression of her life in all the books,
even though there's comedy, but this is the one where
there's some real stuff. You know. My favorite moments, honestly
were watching Chelsea when Shoshana was talking, because you just

(04:43):
saw pride and love and everything sort of shining in
Chelsea's eyes. She loves Yea and she would get emotional
just listening to her speak, and it's just really is awesome,
and it's a relationship that didn't probably always have the
kind of affection. Well, let's stop talking about it and
let's listen. I just listen to it because at this

(05:06):
point the audience might as well just we're revealing everything. Yeah,
but I also want to say before we get into
this that they also challenged us on our relationship, which
is really really We've got a lot, We've got a
lot to talk about. But let's not do this right now,
because this is not about us. This is about Chelsea

(05:26):
and Shana Handler enjoy all right, we're starting. Yeah, I
think we already started. I'm excited to be here. I'm
really excited to be here. I want to just jump
off and say that that I'm glad that the two
of you are fine and like doing something. Oliver are

(05:47):
sitting next to my sister, Shana walking sitting next to Chelsea.
That's right. We're sitting around around a coffee table and
in my house. And there's a reason for Shan and
I are sitting together because we were the ones marginalized,
disliked our younger sisters. Yeah, the extroverted younger sisters. Yeah.

(06:09):
I was. Actually it's interesting because one of the things
I read Chelsea's new book, Wife Will Be the Death
of Me, which was truly an emotional experience, I have
to say, and I got horny. You get Horney whenever
you read my writing. You guys, you guys. This is it.
This isn't normal. Ollie and I haven't had a crush
on each other for a long time, but at least

(06:29):
we don't do anything about it. I just you would
say it was sexual tension, but it's not. There's no
tension at all. It's more there's no sexual it's just
a sexual vibration at all. I asked Chelsea what she
wanted to drink, and she says, Allie knows what I want,

(06:53):
Like he knows what I like. First thing, one knows
that I like. What was the moment for you when
you're like, you know what, I'm going to write a
book that I'm actually going to like put it all
out there. Well, I definitely didn't want to write another book.
I've written five, and I didn't want to write another
one unless I had something to say, like something different
to say, because all my books were silly and like
one was about One Night's Dance, one was about They're

(07:15):
all just short essays, funny stories about life, travel stories,
you know, and I just kind of got sick of
putting stuff out that I wasn't immensely prepared to put out.
So I wanted to be thoughtful the next time. Like
I didn't want to just get a book offer and
write a book to deliver a book. I wanted to
write a book and go out and sell the book

(07:35):
after it's done, not the other way around. And I
didn't really even want to write a book until I
started going to therapy, and when things started to really
click for me, I realized, Oh my god, all these
doors are open. This is the first time you've been
to therapy with Dan. I mean, it's the first time
you know, I know four. But so you say that
in the book too, You're sort of like, you know,
you've been to different therapists, because Dan was the first

(07:57):
time that you actually met someone or had a releasetionship
with a therapist that could resonate with you. Yeah. I
had gone to therapy, but never with the intention of
getting real. This was about getting real this, I mean
in the beginning, it wasn't. In the beginning, it was
about bitching about Donald Trump winning the election. And then
slowly I realized that what that represented to me was
my childhood, which was unhinged when my brother died. So

(08:19):
my anger that was directed towards this administration and what
was happening politically was really about triggering what happened to
me as a nine year old when my brother said, Hey,
I'm never going to leave you alone with these people,
meaning my parents. And then he went off and died.
I took that as rejection, like you're rejecting me. You
found a sister you liked better and a family you
liked better. And I didn't have the intellectual capability at

(08:41):
nine years old to understand that it was an accident
and he died and he didn't desert me. But I've
been carrying that with me for, you know, thirty plus years.
You know, So Mollie's already crying. I mean, what monally
put your shit together? What the fuck supposed to be funny?
It's horrible. I just real so why we're attracted to

(09:06):
each other because we're both messes. The thing that's going
to happen is that Oliver. Usually I'm the one that cries,
but now Oliver is going to end up crying and
everything process and I just cry all the time. First
of all, your you're our first podcast that we've done,
your first guest on our podcast, which is like, I'm
so happy about that, And it's so the timing feels

(09:26):
like so synchronistic because your book is about family, and
your siblings played such a huge part of what was
the foundation of who you are and who you became
and the rocks in your life. I mean, you are
a family girl, and you you really get that in
this book. I mean, it's all about uncovering the relationships
between all of you guys, all of all of the siblings.

(09:50):
I have a lot of nicknames. Showtime herself attributed. No,
it's a perfect name for a woman on beta blockers
shown she was a little nervous, but she seems fine.
You grew up where New Jersey, Jersey? And what part

(10:11):
of New Jersey, Northern Livingstone, Okay? And what what kind
of house did you grow up in? Well, we lived
in an affluent suburb and we had a nice house.
It's like a four bedroom, two story home, two car garage,
and we lived in a nice neighborhood. And we were
like the Sanford and Son of the neighborhood. Like used

(10:32):
cars in the driveway. Car parks had a circular driveway
like an N and my dad would double park cars
all the way around that circle, barely fitting them. He
basically sold used cars out of our home and he
had he was a used car dealer with No that
is an N. First of all, that's a lower case
like a lowercase end. Okay, well then I didn't mention

(10:53):
that he was a car dealer with a letter to
have a driveway. Were they used cars or did he like? No,
they were used cars, like and they all had something
wrong with them, like one the gas gage didn't work,
the other one the door didn't open. It maybe we
stole cars. It was just maybe probably would have made

(11:14):
more money we sold them. And what about school? Did
you all you guys go all to go to obviously
public school, same school. Yeah, we'd ask our dad to
drop us off about like a block and a half
before because they got their car cars. Really just drop
me off here, I'll walk the rest. And my dad
was always home, which was really embarrassing, like if you
had a playdate after school, like yeah, like she didn't
want to come to our house because it wasn't like

(11:35):
we were poor. I mean, we were fine, but we weren't.
Never went hungry or anything like that, but we had
everybody had money struggles. Like you heard money being discussed
all the time. Yeah, and my dad was like in
sweatpants with like slip on sneakers and a knitted sweater
all the time. He was a hot and he was
sitting and your mom knit those sweats, yes, and probably

(11:55):
made his shoes too, for all you know. I mean
they were very I mean it was a Farrisson tradition.
You talked about stinky the stinky dad. Stinky ugs. Yeah,
his ugs that span generated. Hopefully they have. Did you
get spanked? We got spanked once or twice. Remember that
time he tried to hit us with a belt after
I took a picture of him naked having sex. I
did not want she made me do it. And then

(12:16):
he came after us and I was like a belt.
I'm like, we've never been hit with a belt before.
I'm like, get in the basement. We locked ourselves in
the basement and he didn't hit us with a belt,
but he was acting like he was going to. But
I was like fuck that. And she and so he
was knocking on the bed the basement door, going girls,
you better get up here. Both getting a spanking and
uh and she Seana was like I'm gonna go. Seanna goes,

(12:39):
we gotta go, we gotta go. I'm like, I'm not
making an appointment to go get the shit kicked out
of me. You go, I'm down here for the night.
And I sucked in the basement and you did you
go up? Yeah? I went up. I got my what
was coming to me? Oh God? But uh now he
was just really a character. My father was just I
mean all over the place. He was all over the place.

(12:59):
He was really really smart, and he went to college
and he traveled all over the world. He spoke five languages.
He was very bright. But he sort of got stuck
once he started having kids. And he actually owned a
gas station that he inherited is from his father and
did very well for a long time, and then it
got taken from by the government from like eminent domain
or whatever. They were building a highway over it. So

(13:20):
after that, that's when things really started to That's when
my dad just kind of had a makeshift career. Like
he's like, I guess I'll sell cars out of the
driveway and were like why. So he'd like put ads
in the paper and you know, pretend he was, you know,
under a different name like Simon or Sid or Si.
His name was Seymour. So he'd make up all these
names and he'd have all these ads going, and you know,
people would call and they were usually immigrant people that

(13:43):
you could only afford screw over. Yeah, like a car
for twenty five hundred dollars and then he'd like conversations
right over here were so embarrassing house. So did you
think you got some of your hustle from him? The
good party definitely was like, I don't morally and ethically,
I was disgusted and I was never going to ever
cheat liar's deal for mine and you know, like act
that way. That to me was the example of what

(14:03):
not to do. So I think it was good for me,
you know, to see that reflection, because I don't want to,
you know, carry on like that. Yeah, I did not
want to marry someone someday, just like my father, I
kind of wanted to go to the opposite direction, you know.
I mean he loved us and did you Yeah, yeah, definitely.
How long have you been married? Eighteen years? What do
you do for a living? I'm a registrant. Thank you

(14:26):
for asking. I've been wondering what she does for a
living for a long time. Thank you. You're the director
of Is that right? It's a home health agency. I
do home visits. Yes, it's just part time. So I
just want to like lie down. She's very much are
going to be Okay, Yeah, she got. But she used

(14:46):
the parts of my dad in a good way, you know,
I mean the stubbornness and the resiliency and the loud laugh.
It just the laugh sounds like your dad had a
great laugh. He did. He did. Do you wish you
had more of what she got? Yeah? Yeah, I mean
I wish I had more balls. I wish you had
more of what she got. Well, because it's funny because

(15:12):
I look at Kate and I'm like, God, I wish
I had more of that. Oh really, Oh for sure. Yeah,
because just her her balls and her fearlessness, and you know,
she doesn't care what anyone thinks, you know, and that's
such a great quality. Like I mean, she does, but
she doesn't, you know, she really does say how she
feels and she just lets it hang out. And like,
you know, I checked myself at the door and totally

(15:33):
totally the way we're sitting right now with me and
Chelsea on the sofa with you two sitting across from
I can get to show because I just want to
be near her, I think, you know, yeah, yeah, I
said we're better than them. How many siblings do you
guys have? There's six three boys, three boys, and then

(15:55):
three girls were born, right, and chet was the oldest. Yes,
and you're the youngest, so you say it in your book,
your book ends. And then in that moment there was
a dynamic before Chat passed away that was sort of
what you saw as the baby as the like whole dynamic, right,
But for you, as the middle child, what did that

(16:18):
look like to you? Like usually middle children have a
very different psychological experience. Yeah, well I was the baby
for a while. I was the baby for five years. Okay,
here we go. So, yeah, well that's interesting, the baby
becoming the middle Yeah, you know, so I was number five,
and I think everyone thought that that was it, like,
you know, the including me or yes, including me. And

(16:41):
then Chelsea came along, And what did dad say when
he's Chelsea's the only birth that my father actually witnessed.
And the nurse said to him she came out just screaming,
like bloody murder, And I think he said like, you're
never gonna have to worry about this one or something
like that, because the way that she was screaming. Well,
I am, so what does that say a lot to

(17:01):
have to worry about that? At least? How Mom took
it seriously. I still think I'm dying. Yeah, Mom, I'm
still putting safety nets all around him everywhere you go.
It does. But you know, I talk about that in
the book a lot because of the birth process, which
is really hard for me to even say seriously because

(17:22):
I'm very not you know, I don't I la. I'm
very sensitive to over indulging in the spirituality component. I
know it's important and I'm getting there and I'm meditating
and I'm doing all these things. But like for me
to hear that somebody's going through something traumatic because of
their birth made me laugh my ass off. I'm like, really,
but it's true. Like, after learning and educating myself, our
births do have an impact on the way we come

(17:44):
into this world. And by the way I did, I
went to this place called the Hoffmann Institute, which is
a whole other conversation, but it changed my entire life.
And this my birth that I never thought affected me
in any way whatsoever, because how the fuck put it.
But the fact is is that I was pulled from
mom and put into a bassinet and an incubator with

(18:05):
tubes down my throat for three and a half three
and a half week. And so the first month of
my life I had no contact, no mother contact, nothing
at all. And while I put that off throughout my life,
after going through this process, I realized that there is
some effect. Well, and it's not only you, it's the dynamic.
So like the dynamic between you and mom is wrapped

(18:29):
up intensely in that moment, so that informs can you
talk about this another time? So many things, Well, this
is sibling revelry. I mean, hello, this is what else
to talk too. So when Chelsea was born, I feel
like I was like the baby. I got lots of attention.
I was like kind of like the golden child that
was a happy, go lucky kid. I'm sweet, I was

(18:50):
cute whatever. And then she was born and she was
like hell on wheels. Like she was loud, she was
crying all the time. When she was a toddler, she'd
go into these like insane tantrums where she'd spin three
hundred and sixty degrees while simultaneously kicking and punching and screaming.
But it would last like she wouldn't do it like

(19:11):
a normal kid for like ten minutes. She could go
like an hour, an hour and a half like, and
my parents were tired. They already had five kids. So
I was pissed as soon as I came out, I
was pissed. I was like, but was there was there
like some neglect there in a way where it was like, well,
fuck it, We've had a thousand children, let's just let
her do her thing. That's what happened. Some neglect, I

(19:32):
mean your own. Did you just feel like completely overshadowed
by that? I mean, did you? I think I did.
I think I withdrew a little bit and I was
just like, I have no idea how to deal with this.
I don't have the skill set and I don't think
my parents do either. Yeah, so you know, I took
a step back. I think I withdrew a little bit
and became more quiet and little mellow and just was like,

(19:56):
I can't deal with this. And it sounds like Mom
kind of just let those things happened instead of trying
to sort of enforce some kind of like to notice
it and connect with it and say we got to
work on this. Sounds like Mom, Yeah, I mean I
don't they ever experienced a personality in the five previous
They just never had to deal with that I mean,
she had so much energy and she was so loud.

(20:16):
Where did that come from? Though? Probably being born sounds like, well,
I'm just gets me. Is there anyone in your family?
I had to take a guess. I mean, honestly, I
would say that she wasn't cut out to be a child.
Like she was born raring to go. I'm not dissimilar,

(20:38):
you know, like she was ready to be independent. Still
have emotional baby fat, literally like all over my stomach,
like it, emotional baby fat all over my stomach. Well,
here's the thing about Kate. Kate came out and she
came out like Chelsea but performing, and it drove me
fucking crazy. O God, And I get that. I didn't

(21:00):
necessarily withdraw, but I got angry and so I tripped her.
I hit her. I you know, it's sad because all
Kate wanted, really, yeah, she wanted a man to love her.
I know it wasn't a man, but she wanted a
mail to love her because she had no real connection
to men. I was it guy. So when I went
through my Hoffmann process, I had an emotional breakdown over

(21:23):
her because I'm like, I am this, I am who
she needed at that time. What is the Hoffman process?
Again abandoned me. He neglected and abandoned me. The Hoffman
process started in the fifties. It's got Bob Hoffman, and
it's basically the idea is is that you have developed

(21:46):
negative love patterns from zero to seven in order to
survive its children. It's infants. We need love, whether it's
positive or negative. So now we have taken on these
negative love patterns from our parents, and they're in our DNA,
they're in our being, you know, we have adopted them.
And this process is this true process, because you cannot
do one tiny step without the other. And you're with

(22:09):
thirty eight people and you go through and experience a
true catharsis, or at least I did, and you're dealing
with all kinds of therapy. I mean basically it's the
foundation is CBT. It's cognitive behavioral therapy. But you're getting
into primal stuff. I mean, you're getting into some real shit.
And for me, the biggest thing was surrendering, not thinking

(22:31):
I was looking stupid, being I had to really let
go of my own shit to actually have this experience,
and I truly did. I had breakdowns like I've never
had before. Is this like a one on one time. No,
you're with a group of people, which is the beautiful
part of it, because you're experiencing these emotions and this

(22:52):
catharsist with people, so you become a family. And I
can honestly say that I've never experienced accepting love in
my life like I did at the end of this,
and also giving love without fear, without worry that someone's
going to leave me. You know, my relationship with my
wife changed dramatically. I was finally able to tell her

(23:14):
and show her how much she means to me without
worrying about it. One of the things that I thought,
and I really want to talk about is your brother
and your guys experience, if you don't mind talking about
it when he passed away. I mean, in your book
you talk about that a lot. I don't want to
give too much away from the book because it really
is wonderful. But you said in the book that you

(23:35):
didn't remember her being there right that that night, Yeah,
even though you were there, I was actually out babysitting
and then you came home or in Martha's vineyard, and
I was out and I came home to find out
from my older sister who was with my mom and Chelsea. Yeah,
so yeah, I wasn't there. You weren't there, But then

(23:56):
you said you didn't even remember. What was that You're older,
so was your older sisters. Simone and I had come home. Shashana,
who's here, was out babysitting. So we came home. My
mom was at the top of the stairs and just
looked like she had been attacked, you know, and she
just said, your brother, you know. She came to the
top of stairs and my sister, I remember, we had
dairy queen in our hands. We had just she'd just
taken me out to ice cream, and she was heading

(24:17):
back out because she was older and she was going
out with her friends and they would take me out
for ice cream and then drop me off and go out.
And I hated that, you know. And so when I
saw my mom at the top of the stairs, I
remember thinking, Oh, someone's not going to be able to
go out of mom's crying like this, Like that was
my first instinct, was like, cool, someone's going to stay
home with me. My mom's crying great. Like it was
that fast, you know, your thoughts moved so quickly in

(24:37):
all these different directions. When something like that happens. And
then I knew, no, we're not This isn't going to
be good. This is going to be bad. This is
Look at her face. She looked so disheveled and contorted,
and it was just not my mom. And I remember thinking,
is her face ever going to be the same again?
And she just said, your brother's dead, and we both
knew who it was because he was away on a trip,
and I just was like, h this now, like after

(25:02):
all of this, you fucking losers can't even protect your
own children. Like I had so much anger that my
parents let my brother die and that he went and
let himself die. Like I was so angry in that
moment that I just couldn't I couldn't articulate it, and
I couldn't say I was so pissed at the world,
like how does this fucking happen? How could you let

(25:23):
this happen to me? Like it was all about the
affect it had on me. I didn't think about my
mother's pain or my sister's pain. I was like, oh,
my life is over. And so you become you know,
when you realize that you don't have the vocabulary to
discuss these things, and you're so little, she's only nine.

(25:43):
You wrap yourself up in this and I was so young,
you know, you stand that is like I don't want
to ever discuss this with anyone again because everyone here
is falling apart. And the more I looked around and
saw my mom fall apart, my father fell apart, he
retreated and was never the same. So I didn't remember
Shoshana there because it's a moment one of shock. It's
like we always confuse those moments, you know. And I
learned that also that you remember memories. We all remember

(26:06):
things differently. We don't know if somebody was at the
top of the stairs or the bottom of the stairs,
you know, when something when you were told the news,
So it was like it was a It was a
It was sad in a way because I didn't have
any comfort for her or for anyone in my family,
because I only was trying to take care of myself,

(26:26):
which is natural, right. So were you were you there
at the house? Well, I had come home and my
sister told me after babysitting my older sister, Simone, and
I thought Simone said she went outside and Mom told
you because she didn't want to hear the news twice.
That's what Simone told me. Oh really, I mean, it's
actually kind of foggy. I don't remember specifically who told me.

(26:46):
I thought it was Simon, but I could be wrong.
But I just remember just this dark, dark time and
haze over us. And I also was just thinking of
myself and not really, you know, worried about Chelsea or
worried about someone. I was worried about my parents. I
was like devastated for the pain that they were in
and just in shock myself. And you know, I don't

(27:07):
think Chelsea was thinking about me and I was thinking
about her. We were just like, was there a time
when the other siblings sort of got together, I know,
you guys were young, and like there was like a
moment of getting together to talk about it or well
we did a few days later, we went to visit
the boy that he went with on this trip. My
brother fell in the Tetons and he was with two

(27:27):
other good friends from high school, and he was twenty
two and he just tripped on a route and he
was at a very high elevation and he just fell
and he died instantly. But we did we all knew
that the boy that he was with, and of course
my father, just my father instantly the family brought them
out of town. Like it was awful because he wanted

(27:49):
to blame someone, which every parent obviously does, so he
wanted somebody to be culpable, and he sued them and
sued them and of course lost. He could sued them
for negligence because they had hiked before and they had
somehow separated from my brother. My brother had never hiked,
and so he was a beginner, and my dad wanted
to blame them for not looking after him more, which
was a long grasp, but you know, this was his
best friend. He just lost his best friend and now

(28:10):
our family is suing him. So we had to, like,
you know, you guys had to testify in court. Right, Yeah,
that was horrendous. Did you ever talk with him after that? Again?
Is he where is he you ever? Yeah? We well
we went over a few days later before all the
lawsuits and all that. But I mean, after all of that,
like now, as adults, have you ever moved to Seattle

(28:31):
and he makes boats for a living, and he said
he'll never go on vacation with another person again in
his life really, so he's never been away with anybody, right,
Isn't that what he said when he saw my brother Glenn.
My brother Glenn went out to visit him and had
a really nice talk with him, and you know the
impact that it's had on his life versus our life.
And that's the thing is we forget how many other

(28:52):
people get affected by these things. Well, so you're saying
when you're not thinking about everyone else because you're trying
to self suthe and trying to figure out how it
affects you and your life and your dynamic. And then
all of a sudden you have to like wake up
from that, and like you said, like everyone wants to
blame someone for it's like almost like inflicting pain on yourself.

(29:16):
But at the end of the day, like I remember
someone saying that the only way to have peace is
to forgive, you know, and and that they almost wanted
to change, you know, international Peace Day to International Forgiveness Day,
because people don't quite understand that in order to liberate
yourself from anything, you have to be you forgiveness has

(29:36):
to be such. Yeah, my father completely got stuck in
his anger and grief and for years that was his focus,
just to you know, pursue this lawsuit and you know Civilly,
and you know, it went on for a long time,
and he was and total he spent all his money
on this yea, and like you know, we didn't have
a lot of money to begin with, so it was

(29:57):
a hot mass. Did you feel like you lost him
as a far Yeah, he retreated for sure, Like I
you know, I talk about that too, because like for me,
you know, I was this youngest. I was blonde, I
was bouncy, I had a personality. I was this focus
of everyone's attention, including my father's. I felt like I
was the center of everyone's world in my life, in
my family until then. And then so my brother died,

(30:17):
who was basically like a father figure too because my
parents were older, so like my brothers and sisters took
care of me. My parents were the like figureheads. But
I was always with my brothers. They would take me
to parties when I was like five six, you know,
I would come out with them and just like hang
out with them all the time. I loved it. And
then after when your dad sort of retreated, Glenn and
Simone sort of became like parental figures. Wow right, yeah, yeah,

(30:41):
they they were parental figures. They were at Emory University together,
and Simone, even though I remember saying, she went to
Glenn's fraternity. He was the president of his fraternity. She's
the president of Tri delt and at Emory, and she
went over there and she's like, hey, I'm having a
really hard time with this with Chet, Like what do
we do? I can't I can't focus, I can't work,
I can't and he was like, just go he's dead

(31:01):
and you need to deal with it, move on, just
get on with your life. My brother did that to
my sister, and my sister was like, none of us
had anybody to talk to. Glenn wasn't dealing with it.
He was doing what I was doing, which was like,
suck it up, move forward, don't talk about it ever again.
So I think for me, the most important experience was
I had a really hard time digging into therapy because

(31:22):
I thought it was narcissistic and I thought it was
navel gazing, and I thought, oh, I have shows, name books,
and my whole career is about me, Chelsea, you know.
And I'm annoyed with myself at this point, so I
don't want to go and spend more time talking about myself.
But the lesson I learned that you are no use
of use to anyone until you clean out your own injuries. Yeah,
it's so great and so true. And by the way,

(31:44):
there's timing. There's a timing situation when it comes to
this stuff. Now's the perfect time for this to happen
to you, or to you or to me, whenever the
timing is. And I found mine just recently. I'm forty two,
and so we just don't know when that time is
going to happen, and we have to be open to it.
And it sounds like you were open to this and
you the door was cracked and you stepped through it. Yeah,

(32:04):
there's a lot of people who don't step through you know. Well,
I think you have to also look for the door,
you know what I mean. And if you and yeah,
you can't look back and say I wish I had
had this awakening earlier. There's a reason people have awakenings
when when they turn forty, Like you know, I started
this book when I was forty two. I'm forty four now.
And there's a reason that you wake up at that age. Yeah,
because it's the time to wake up, you know. And

(32:27):
so you can't judge yourself for not doing it sooner
or for not You just have to be so excited
that you did it that you know something different now
and you can identify what your issues are. You know,
for me to not be reactive, to not tell people
what I think every single fucking time I want to,
I had never even known that was an option, Like,
I didn't know you didn't have to talk all the
time and insert yourself. Have you guys had together as

(32:53):
the five of you, a moment where you've been able
to connect together as adults in a way where you
can acknowledge all of these things with each other. Well,
I feel like his death gave us a gift. And
it didn't happen right away. It evolved. But we all
just love each other so much, and we are really

(33:13):
really close, and we just like love being together. I mean,
Chelsea takes us some of these amazing trips. We all
have the best time, and we talk about stuff once
in a while, and we cry about my mom, my brother,
and not my dad yet, but that'll come. We've had
so many deaths, she calls me to tell me. While
I was writing this book, everyone kept dying. My dogs
were dying. Our cousin died tragically, our father died last year,

(33:37):
and so I was campaigning in Orange County somewhere and
I get this call and Sean is like crying and
like she doesn't say anything. I immediately hear her crying.
I'm like, what what you know? Because once you have
one death in your family, you're like, oh, I hate
these calls. And my mother died. We were all together
for that, and in a way it was like, I think,
are my brother's death came full circle with my mom's

(33:57):
death because we were able to say goodbye to her
and be there and sleep in the bed with her
and be in hospice for her. You know. But I
can't think about it. I can't even think about it. Yeah, no,
they're gonna be fine for you've got some years left.
But hold on. But about the dad, Like, why haven't
there been no morning process? Well, no, my dad has
been dead for a long time mentally, like he just

(34:19):
was an asshole. And as soon as my mom died,
it became more and more apparent what an asshole he was.
And yes, we love him, he's our dad, but he's
a bit of a shyster. He lied he was a
used car dealer, Like, he's not the most upstanding guy.
We found out we had a brother after he died,
or not after he died. After my mom died. We're like,
of course we do well. We found out we found
we have a brother too. I know, I know. That's
why I brought it up. We all found everyone in

(34:41):
this room found out they had a brother. So Shanna
calls me and she's crying, and I go, Hey, what
is it? And she goes, oh, okay, Dad, I think
I forget what you said. You said, Dad, he's he
didn't make it, or he passed away. They just called
me he passed away. And I said, why are you crying?

(35:02):
Because we were so ready for it. It's like the
longest lead you could have in a facility for five years.
He's basically like sedentary. He doesn't move, And the last
couple of times we saw him he was out yeah,
And I go, why are you crying? Because I don't know.
I didn't think i'd be crying either. And then we
got off the phone and I was like with my
I was with my driver, Billy, and I told Billy
and he's like, oh, chill, do you want to pull over.

(35:23):
I go, no, I'm kind of relieved that it's over,
Like it wasn't a quality of life somebody's like in
an old age home. That's not fair to keep somebody
alive like that. And so he died peacefully and whatever.
Like I was fine with it, and I called it
back like twenty minutes later. I'm like, are you still upset?
And she's like, no, I'm fine out. But we did

(35:44):
have a beautiful funeral for him, But I was unexpected
he kept it small because we didn't have any friends left.
He had some family of ours. The way you talk,
the way you write about this in your book is
really it's a really emotional part of the book because
I think it would be very relatable for people who've
had that experience where you go and almos sudden, you
hear these stories about your father that you've never heard before,

(36:08):
and in seeing him from different perspectives, seeing himreciating the
family component, you know, all of these cousins of his
and relatives of ours that did show up to that
funeral on this really dreary New Jersey day. I was
even contemplating not going, Like there was a part of
me that was like do I really need to go.
And then my brother was like, yes, you do, it's
your father's funeral. So that was Roy. Where's Roy smoking pots?

(36:33):
Simple low? But he came back to the funeral too. Yeah,
we all went back. In the book, she talks about
like what happened after Ched died, but then like Roy
left smoking pot somewhere. Yeah, he's been He smoked a
lot of pot and he's really never recovered. But well
he started at twelve. He started too early. He started
to wait for a develop He didn't dance seagull and

(36:56):
fifteen years old. But the other thing is that's what
I did. No. Twenty one is that we tell teenagers
it was yeah, twenty one, right, twenty one pot? I
turned out fine, did you anyway? I think fineish. It
was just a nice reminder of what is important in
the world and in your life, and that showing up
for a funeral matters, and it's dignified and it makes

(37:18):
you realize it's a celebration of somebody's life and we
should always be there for each other. And you know,
being with my family this year at a couple of funerals,
I was like, Okay, this is why you know this
is what it's all about. When I was fifteen, my
mom sent me on an airplane to Oh my god,
this is crazy and her uncle Dag died right and

(37:42):
she couldn't make the funeral, so she sent me. She
had like eight mom had like eighty r and I
remember said, you to represent the family. She sent me
to represent the family. And I can read a speech.
To read a speech, and now I think about it,
I'm like, I writer's age. I mean, that's crazy. But

(38:03):
I I went and I went to Arkansas and I
submt all of my family that I'd never known, and
I have to give this speech. And that was really
my second funeral experience other than Graham's. But yeah, that's
that's our family. You guys forget I got a gig.
I gotta go. Oh yeah, do you have forgiveness for

(38:25):
your dad? I mean, do you know, like after he
died or was there a sort of a compassion And
I have more compassion. I have more empathy. I realized
I had, you know, I didn't have a lot of
empathy when I talked to Dan about what what my
issues are and why I'm so reactive and why I don't,
you know, think about people's plights as much as I
think about the active way was what was his dad?

(38:48):
What was your grandfather like? What was his family life like?
His parents? You know what I mean? And that wasn't good,
so you know, so it's all of course, everyone has
their story. And I have to say, after reading your book,
I'm going to step in on this because from a
psychological point of view, you would say that you know,
you have to forgive your father because you have so

(39:08):
much of your father. If you don't forgive him, then
you can't forgive yourself. Wow. Interesting, ye, I never really
thought about that. That is at the end of the book,
you do say that he didn't have empathy, that that
was something we have their own story, and this is
what I was talking about with even with our father.
My dad's dad, in the middle of the night when
my dad was five years old, just bailed on his

(39:31):
entire family and they didn't see him again until they
were like in their twenties. So my dad was just
given a bad deal, right, and so he didn't have
the tools like I was fortunate enough to have the
tools to try to learn about myself and figure it out.
Because I didn't want to repeat the same shit. He
was just you know, living life in Oregon, so he

(39:51):
had no chance really with his kids. And so when
I really think about that, I developed this pure sense
of compassion for him, giveness because it's in a sense,
it's not his fault. Yeah, yes, I mean, he's his
own man, and he has free will, but he didn't
have the capacity or the tools to fix himself before

(40:12):
he had children himself. But wait a minute, did you guys?
You guys just the reconciliation was later in life though, right?
I mean when did this? We did not get along
for all long she was She told on me all
the time, and I wanted her to get to virginize
and start smoking. You know what I mean. You said

(40:33):
that Chelsea had such a consuming presence and it felt
like being hit by a train. Is that right? He said? Absolutely? Right? Okay,
so that kind of But when did it up? When?
When did it get But when did it get good?
So when did it get good? When did the love start?
How old were you after the DWI? Right? I got
a DUI when I was twenty one and I had

(40:55):
her ID, a fake ID. I was using her fake
ID because my mom gave me her ID that I
could go drinking. She was driving around with her picture
with my name and racking up speeding tickets. Oh my god,
Oh my god, you're terrible. But then there was a
warrant terror myers Ie d that was a mistake, warrant
for your arrest. Yeah, I didn't do anything. It was her,

(41:16):
but you report me to THEBI or something that clean
it up. Like it was so ridiculous. They're like, oh,
you're actually on a list of like you know, it
wasn't America's Most Wanted, but it was something like close.
I can't say that, And I was like, I don't
think I am on that list, and like, yes, your
sister's reported you for you know, because you're obtaining her
identity and impersonating somebody is a federal offense. And even

(41:38):
though I was trying to get into bars, that's what
I was doing. So I had to go to jail
get booked, and then I didn't speak to her. Even
my parents got mad at her because they knew I
was right. And my mother is the one that provided
her with their certificate. Oh my god, mom, I really
need this for you know, fake ID. She's like okay, honey,
here you go, and then you know, the ball started rolling.

(41:58):
My mom just wanted me to go and do my
thing because she wanted me to calm down. And she
knew I had to get it out of my system,
that I had to go party, I had to go
sleep around, and I had to have fun. I didn't
think she knew it was gonna last as long as
it did. But you guys still fight, not lately, I mean,
and no one in our family really fights about it
any thing. Well, all you'll like this. Shows says that

(42:20):
every time she heard Chelsea's name, it reminded her of
seafood stew and made her cry all the time. So
just hearing Chelsea made you cry. Getting these quotes from her,
we we we got a little research guru over here.
We had we had a masking tape down the middle
of our bedroom. We had to share a bedroom, so
we put tape down the middle and one side was

(42:42):
hers and one side was wine. Right, But then one
person had the door and couldn't get out because on
her side, so she could get out, so I'd have
to ask her to leave, then have to ask for me.
This isn't gonna like work for me. It's so funny. God,
let's see we had some questions here. You never agreed
on anything. True. Yeah. She would come home from a

(43:03):
party and be like, we'd be on Martha's vineyard Io,
that was our summer house. She'd come home and be like,
there was, you know, into a bonfire tonight. I'm like,
did you smoke some pot? She's like, no, I'm not
doing that. I don't want to do any of that.
I'm like, oh my god, why not do it? Everything
that the world is? Why are you squandering these opportunities?
Because I was like, you know, eight, ready to fucking run.

(43:24):
I'm like, I want to go to a bonfire. Yeah.
I was kind of like that too. How did you
two get to reconcile your relationship? Still working on it.
I think this podcast is going to be honestly, Oliver
was okay in a nutshell after college in a nutshell,

(43:45):
all I wanted was Oliver's attention. I wanted to hang
out with him. I was like, he used to call
me doorknob queen because I'd hang on his doorknob and
he would never let me in the room. I mean
shut his door on my face all the time. Difference
two and a half years and then all of I mean,
he would leave me at school when he was supposed

(44:07):
to take me home. He would just leave and I'd
have to like call home from the payphone and be like,
Oliver left and can someone come pick me up? And
it was our parents weren't really like the school drop
off pick up kind of parents, and so so it
was like that. I mean one time, I remember it
was pouring rain at school and Oliver was in his

(44:27):
like little weird what was it? What was that's right?
And he was in his in his prelude, and I
like knocked on it and I was like rain was
just like pouring and like allie, and he was like
not going to do it, not going to do it,
and he would not let me in the car, and

(44:49):
I was just soaking wet. But it's interesting because I
have no recollection of any of these, of course I know.
Is it that sad that it made such an appreson
you don't even remember? And the then he went to college,
and it was the night before he was leaving for Boulder,
and I went into his room and we sobbed. That
was and then it was never it was never like

(45:11):
that after that. I think our relationship is always evolving,
as it all relationships do. But I think as we
get older, it gets deeper and deeper. I think we're
much more open and honest with each other, able to
tell each other things. Once we have kids, too, things
change a lot, you know, because I trust her with
my children's lives as she does vice versa well, and

(45:33):
we have very different parents totally, totally, but we accept them.
I mean I accept the way she does thing and
she does. You know, do you have kids? I do.
I have a ten year old son and a fourteen
year old daughter and a fourteen year old daughter, and
I have Burt and Bernice. And do you ever feel
judgmental about how she raises her kids? Yeah, even though

(45:53):
you don't have you don't have children. Yeah, but not
to a degree where I would be like, this is
what you need to do. I mean I have a temper.
So if something's like like, well, well you went to
Glen's house and like you basically confiscated all the video
games in the house. Yeah, my brother's kids were playing
all these really growth like you can't play that, that's
too violent. I just I feel the same way about
I mean, that's we're dealing with things like that's true,

(46:15):
but for her kids. No, I mean, I'm she has
a daughter who's incredible. We don't know how she's a
member of our family, but I don't. I mean she is.
She and I are totally different. And the thing, you know,
the ayahuasca and what my experience with ayahuasca was understanding
and accepting that people are different from you and that
that does not deserve your judgment. So my work is
always like, don't judge somebody because they're doing something. They

(46:38):
don't have the same thoughts, processes that you do. Whatever.
So the only things that annoy me about her are
the things that annoy me about my childhood, which was
stuff that's if it's disorganized, if there's not fresh toilet paper,
everything that represents unstated like instability, Like growing up in
our house, when I didn't see the toilet paper on

(46:58):
the role in the bathroom, it made me crazy. I
was like, this is disorganized. Otherhow have toilet It was
a mess. So whenever I like, has a little of
that left over, and I'll have a place for people
working and chating all day so I don't have toilet
paper empty toilet paper rolls. Sometimes on the weekends but
when I see that, I get a little triggered. But

(47:19):
I realized, wait, that's not Has there ever been a
part of you ever in your life where you were
like I maybe want children, No, not even one, not
even an inkling. I mean sometimes I think, oh, this
is I get why people would do it, but I
don't want the responsibility. I just don't think that's going
to be the best use of myf You ever look
at her life and like, God, I'm envious of your
just freedom, the freedom definitely, yeah. I mean she just

(47:42):
can pick up and go anytime she wants. Where are
you not envious of her life? Great question, Oliver, Look
at you hitting your stride. I mean I'm just well,
you're like, oh thank god, I don't have that. I mean,
I couldn't handle what she does. I mean that's just
not me. I'm quiet and I'm mellow. I'm like totally
low key, and Chelsea's is you're quiet? Funny? Yeah, So

(48:05):
I mean, like all that attention, it's not for me,
and you know, like she handles it so well. But
you know, I know that I wouldn't really enjoy that,
and I don't know. I guess that's it. Do you
think that's a function of when Chelsea came into the world,
that maybe if she didn't come into the world, I

(48:27):
want you would have been a little more about who
would you have been if Chelsea was not? Or would
you have been a different human being? I mean, who knows.
Maybe I bet you probably would have been a little
bit more outgoing. Unspoken say that the youngest children are
normally more extroverted, the babies are usually more extroverted. I
mean that's a statistic. I think, well birth order and

(48:51):
a sibling effect. It's all like total one, two, three,
and then it repeats the cycle. Yeah, I was. I
was actually at intimidated, and even with a five year
age difference, I was a little on naive side, and
she was like advanced because all her siblings were older.
She hung out with my older brothers and sisters a lot,
so she picked up things really quickly. She was this
fast talker and just like got it and like it

(49:14):
seems like she was even though we didn't live in
the city or anything. She was sort of like street
savvy without ever having experience. The whole time, You're like,
just shut the fuck up. Yeah, did she talk take
it to stopped doing how every grown man feels about me,
every grown man in my own age. I should clarify
oldies loved me well. I I mean, I take credit

(49:36):
for Kate's success because without without me, she wouldn't have
the fire and the drive to prove anything. And so
because I fucked with her so much, and she just
disliked me, and she thought that I didn't never dis
liked well. She thought that she needed to be seen
and so the way she needed to be seen was

(49:56):
through work andelf success and self sufficient anybody and power
do it myself. Yeah, watch this, So you're welcome. But
it's nice to recognize that. Like, you know, when you're
a little kid and you feel that somebody's invidious of you,
like Shashana was jealous of the attention? Probably right, is
that right? Like as a child that I got if

(50:19):
you could only have the vocabulary to understand, Like when
you hear jealousy as a kid, it doesn't mean anything
to you, Like my mom would be like, oh, she's jealous,
or the girls at school that would be mean. They're like,
she's they're jealous. I'd like, I don't care if they're jealous.
It feels like shit. It doesn't feel good. I don't
thought I had that a lot. Like for me. You know,
one of the things I recognized through my work with
Dan and through like my ayahuasca experience is like, you

(50:41):
have to have empathy for people in that position, like
that they're obviously not happy with your presence. So instead
of making them angrier, you know what I mean, Like
you could, but we don't know that. When we're kids,
we just all acted out, and I think it's valuable
to act it out because then we can come together
and celebrate the unionizing of it. But you know, when
we come together as older siblings, you're like, this is incredible, Like, oh,

(51:05):
this is what it's about. It's so fun being older siblings. Now,
by the way, with me and you and Boston and why,
it's just a fucking it's so fun. It's unionizing right there.
But you weird choice, I know, sorry, Like why are
you looking at me like that? I'm like, what did
I say? You? You're forming a union? Okay, guys, let's

(51:25):
talk about closeness. So you're really close with Glynn, but
it sounds like you're really close with Roy, Yeah, I
mean I haven't seen him in a long time. Because
he's so far away and he comes home for he's
in but you live together. We lived together for like
five years and yeah, so do you find that you're
more connected, like closer to other siblings. Yeah, I live

(51:46):
with roy for a while. Roy K moved out to
la and that was kind of a mistake. I mean
we kind of you know, he wanted to like have
his own TV show, and I was like, well, that's
not really how it works. You don't just get a
TV show because I have one. So it kind of
became that dynamic, like you could be on my TV show,
but I don't think I can get you your own
TV show, especially since you shake when you're on camera,

(52:08):
like he's so nervous, you know, I'm like, it's not
a fit match. Anyway, he moved here for a while.
That was kind of a disaster because you know, it
was a lot of girlfriends around, a lot of wrong people,
that kind of thing. He moved to Plow. He's really
happy now. But they have always had a tighter relationship
and I've been well, you're close with Glenn too. We're
all very close. I think. I mean, it's just yeah,

(52:28):
I wouldn't say like anybody's that's like, yeah, but but
do you notice it goes in cycles? Yeah, that's how
That's what I like. That's how I feel about art,
our sibling dynamic. It's like true, Oliver and I will
be really close, and then all of a sudden, it'll
be like Boston and I will be spending a lot
of time together, and I'll be like, oh, he might
he might be my new favorite. Right, It's like WHYTT Right?

(52:49):
Then I'll say it's time with Wyatt all the time.
I'm like, wait, I don't know whytt why it's coming
up a close second? Well, whoever spent the most time
with her recently is on the ship list. That's pretty much.
It's a pretty good marker because she gets sick of people.
So like, are you doing better? I mean, that's something
you want to try to fix. So well, I'm just

(53:11):
trying to make smarter decisions about who I spend time
with because I know my personality more now. Yes, and
I'm much more open minded, But I know I get
irritated when people are like, you know, like, for instance,
this weekend, I went away to Sun Valley Film Festival.
I was on this panel talking about my book and
I was like, oh, perfect excuse to go skiing, and
I brought my assistant, who I never just travel alone with.
But I'm just skiing is so important to me right now.

(53:32):
I love it so much and I just want to ski.
And I get a ski guide wherever I go, and
I have him taken me around the mountain. And I
took him and my best friend Mary McCormick was like,
he's gay, he and so so yes, I did sleep
with him. She was like, be careful. You get annoyed
with people, and she goes, you don't want to get
annoyed with Brandon because Brandon's been my assistant for three years.
He's amazing. And she's like, don't cross the boundary. And

(53:54):
we cross the boundary and we're thrilled. He's my gay husband. Now.
I love him. He's more combatable than how for my girlfriends.
So I'd rather just go away with my assistant and
finally just you know, have a happy vacation. But I
make smarter decisions now about who I'm going to spend
my time with when I'm away, rather than just what
about coming to asphen with our family? How do you
feel about that? I love coming to Aspen with your family.

(54:16):
I've proven myself good. But as you've gotten older, the
threshold is higher. Like ten years ago, you got annoyed,
you know, in half an hour. And now that you're
older and more mature, and I've gone through all this therapy,
I think like you can tolerate more. You still get annoyed,
but it takes longer to get I don't react. I
just remove myself, like I will go meditate in my room,

(54:37):
like a sentence I thought i'd never say out loud.
I literally, if I start to get irritated or if
I get annoyed with somebody, I'm like, I go and
take a time out, and I'm like, listen, get yourself together.
You like this person, you invited them on vacation. Don't
get annoyed well, And you guys do family vacations. Yes,
So here's I'm gonna just put myself. I'm going to
project into this for me. I love family vacations. But

(55:00):
something will happen at some point and the old family
dynamic comes back. There's always going to be old stuff
that comes up because we are families, and there is
a bunch of old stuff. Just because you've changed your
or done the work on you doesn't mean everybody else
has changed, But it's your reaction to that old dynamic
that is different. Like your reaction is different even though
and sometimes when you have the same reaction you feel like, oh,

(55:24):
I know better than to have this kind of reaction
or I'm not going to deal with this shit. But
I believe that the baby steps we take to get
to places are the steps of growth. And I know
you do too. But like just because you, you know,
had that reaction, say on your last vacation or when
you went to Greece last summer or whatever it was,
Like knowing and identifying it is halfway over getting over

(55:48):
it and not letting it affect you. I would, right
you ye think yes, yeah, and also just recognizing that
it still exists. It still exists, but some people are
now so it doesn't matter as much, right right, Like
I always just trying to mind remind myself be cool,
Like just be cool, because that's what you really care
about the most, is just not being I don't want

(56:09):
to look not cool, you know what I mean? So
be cool, not everything. You don't want to look not cool,
Like I don't want to go I don't want to
freak out and scream and yell and have a tantrum.
That's not cool. Yeah, and you're when we were having
our little trip together, you're right like you there's certain
things you were like, we're not in certain family situations

(56:30):
with our family, was like, we're not going to get
into politics. That's just something totally, And you were great
at that, whereas I'm assuming at one point you would
have with Pa. Oh, you guys would have you know,
And by that time I'd smoke so much weed it
didn't matter what he was talking about. So I just
had to set myself up for success. I think I
fell asleep on the couch the first time and you
lost your phone for one hundred hours. Yeah, yeah, I

(56:50):
was so stone, Oh my god. In our family, it
was just I was the only girl with three boys,
never had that sister, which as I got older than
my relationships with my girlfriends became my sisters. But I
would like to know if that feels different than your

(57:11):
relationship with your brothers and what exactly that is like
for you guys. I think so the sister thing is big,
and it's like, I mean, I know I always think
that about you too. I'm like, oh God, you know
you don't have the sister and so, but if you
have a really good friend you do, Like it's just
like that, like it's just they're not related to you. Yeah,

(57:32):
really though, but they're I think the thing about I
feel very strongly that like you, you like, these people
are never ever going to hurt you, you know what
I mean. And your friends, like you know that about
your brothers, But your brothers can emotionally hurt you. Your
sisters are careful emotionally with each other, you know what
I mean, Like you understand each other's things and and

(57:54):
there's something that sets you up for success with other
women when you have sisters, you know, I mean, you
don't have that issue because you have a whole gaggle
of girlfriends to kate. But like, a sister for me
is every It is the root of who I am
is being a sister. Because my brother is never gonna
I'm never gonna call him when something doesn't go well
or my heart is broken. It's never going to be
the one, you know what I mean, I'm gonna call owner, Shashana.

(58:17):
Maybe I do have a sisterly really more of a
sister probably than most women are Oliver my first heartbreak
held me. I was I was sobbing, and I remember
I was in my bed. I was like, you know
that like audible sob and Oliver came in and just
like literally held me while I saw. Our brothers are

(58:38):
not really in touch with their feminine side and now
very feminine time. He's very balanced, so he filled in
where a sister would have still still, but I'm not good.
For the record, I'm pretty masculine too. Just for the podcast.
If anyone's listening, snuggle it'd be so weird. That's the thing.

(59:01):
When your sisters you can cuddle as adults. When you're
with brothers, you can't cuddle. You guys cuddle. We got
into bed at night, she got into my bed last night.
We talked before we go to bed, and then we
both She went into the guest room and I fell
asleep in my own bed. Yeah. And this morning she
stuck her boobs in my face. Yeah, mom, Yeah, because

(59:22):
girls can cuddle. Yeah. Yeah. So his sister's a different dynamic.
But it sounds like Allie's really filling it, you know,
But I've I mean, there's intimacy issues for sure, Like
even with my mom, and Kate. Being able to sort
of express myself and being able to love them like
I know I should difficult for me. It was. You know,
it's interesting that you say that I was just with

(59:43):
a friend yesterday, was telling me a story about a
mutual friend of ours, and his wife is like, you know,
she's madly in love with his wife. He loves his kids.
He does everything for them. His career is completely about them,
to provide for them because he had a terrible childhood.
He was not provided for. His father was deadbeat, blah
blah blah. But while doing that, he's lost the plot
because he's never there. So he's working all the time
to create opportunities for his family, but he's not present ever. Yeah,

(01:00:05):
but he he doesn't have He didn't he thought that
was the way to express love. And his wife is like, no,
I need you at home with the kids to express
your love. You have to be part of this family.
I don't care how much money you make. If you're
away all the time, you're not around. And I think
that's what everybody wants, is a presence, somebody that looks
you in the eye and says I love you. I'm
not going anywhere and I'm here with all of it,

(01:00:27):
and so we all want that. And it's not weak
to admit that we want that. It's strength to admit
that there's so much power in self love, by the way,
because there's you can conquer anything. That's that's what it
feels like. It's true. Well, watching watching your experience, which
you didn't have one, at least in the documentary that
first time, you get it. I gad the second night.

(01:00:49):
The second night was more true, right, right, right? But
your friend who went in there and was in the bathroom,
like I just I love my son so much. I mean,
like I can, you can you would have an intelli,
I would lose. You're so overcome with love for someone
and for someone. For you, guys, it's going to be
one of your kids, it's going to be your spouse.

(01:01:12):
For me, it was her, which was a surprise, but
like I was overcome with like love and affection. The
pivotal moment actually in sort of securing this not securing,
but really elevating your relationship as sisters after ayahuasca. Yeah,
I think so, But I didn't tell her about my experience.
I just filmed the documentary for Netflix and then it

(01:01:32):
was on and she saw it and she was like, oh,
did you react to that moment? Did you have any
emotion behind it where you're just like that's interesting. No,
I was fascinated, and I wish she had told me,
but I mean she saved it for later. And then,
you know, after that, I think like things definitely changed

(01:01:54):
for us, and you know, she was a little bit
more patient, a little bit more understanding with me and
just letting me be me and being okay with it
because we were so different, you know. I mean if
she met me on the street and I was a stranger,
you know, we probably wouldn't be friends. But we're sisters,
and you know, we've been through so much together. We
have like so much history and such a big foundation

(01:02:15):
and we've gone through so much and we've grown so much,
and like it's better than ever. I mean, it's just now,
say if you could get I know right, you guys
are fucking awesome. It's like so sweet. You know. That's
why I love your family so much, you guys, because
I'm from a big family, so I'm always grabbing onto

(01:02:38):
other families out here because I'm like, let me be
part of this. I like a dynamic. I think the
thing that's pulling all over and I to do this
is to share it with other people who don't have
that in them, that that whatever their family dynamic was
to kind of spread everything apart, whether it be their
fear or their anger or the enneagram. You know, it's
like there's a way to be able to to get

(01:03:01):
it on track, you know, And like if you were
to give advice to sisters that didn't get along, what
would be your advice. I mean we've had really low
lows and you know, we went like for like probably
two years with the whole dw I and the warrant
for my arrest thing was like a really low point
and some other incidents that we walk it into right now.

(01:03:24):
But it don't give up. I mean, it's worth it.
It's so worth it, and I don't think I mean,
unless somebody kills somebody else, you've got to find a
way to work past it. Because it's true, like you
only get one this brother or this sister, like that's it.
Like you know, reward, if you can work it out,
the reward is so great that it's worth the toil

(01:03:45):
and like the blood, sweat and tears. It may or
may not take to get there, because usually what we're
all dealing with is being stubborn and learning how to forgive.
You know, for me that is my thing, learning how
to forgive and getting over if somebody does something shitty,
it's not worth it to me. It doesn't just know
that owing the next time that that person did something
this time. You don't have to scorch earth every time.

(01:04:06):
And so the scorched earth part I think is, you
know what, people get into this box. They back themselves
into this box saying I'm never going to forgive this person.
I'm done, I'm done. Yeah, and you realize that it's
really only comes from their own pain, and you're trying
to punish that person, right, And if you need a break,
take a break, but don't give up. That's a good
point too, Like you got to know and to sort
of say, well let's just take a small break here. Well,

(01:04:28):
that's also important because with my experience, like Mary is
Mary McCormick's my best friend, and she and I have
when we've had fights. She'll always be like, well, I
guess this is it. I guess we're not friends anymore.
I'm like, you can't threaten my friendship with you when
we fight. If you do that, I that means you
know what I mean, that is my trigger. If you
say you're leaving, then I'm going to expect you to
leave or I'll leave, Like I want to reject everybody

(01:04:50):
before they reject me. You know. So when she when
she understood that, and when you know, she goes, oh
my god, I understand, like your rejection is a threat
of leaving, So I go, you can't threaten our relationship
when we have a disagreement. We have to understand that
we're having a disagreement and the goal is to repair
it and communication, like I think, especially between siblings, For

(01:05:13):
me especially, it's not easy even speaking with Kate to
tell her how I feel sometimes when she might make
me feel bad. You know, for me personally, it was
easier just to absorb it and put it into something
humorous and be self deprecating rather than say, you know,
I get it, but that doesn't really make me feel good.

(01:05:34):
It's hard for me to do that because then I'm
being vulnerable, and then when I'm being vulnerable is when
shit happens. Absolutely, but for me too, like you feel
like you're going to die and it's yeah, that's sure,
But the alternative isn't an option because then you just
get anger and anger and anger. And if you react

(01:05:55):
with actual vulnerability, which is strength, which is saying, hey,
this hurts me, I love you and I'm hurt. What
can we do about it? Instead of freaking out and
going you fucking ass while you did this and this
and this, which has always been my way, it's now like, Okay,
how does this make me feel? Be vulnerable? And you know,
for you, you know, it's a tricky subject because it's hard.

(01:06:16):
I don't like it either. I don't like seeing people
seeing me cry. And I cry every time I talk
about this book. So I'm going to be crying for
the next three months. Oh my god, I'm not looking
forward to that. I love how honest you are about
your life. I love how honest you are about your
own shortcomings in this book. I love how you express
the importance of getting to know yourself in order to

(01:06:37):
be able to be the best version of yourself in
the world. Like, there's so much about it that I
love that how I've always loved how unapologetic you are.
But yes, like showing a vulnerable side of you is
going to be so impactful for so many people. We
live in a world of perception and people have to
sort of make determinations as to who people are in Hollywood.

(01:06:58):
You're different this way. You have put yourself out there.
Everyone knows who Chelsea is. So this book actually is
sort of again a great book nd into sort of
your next your next path, Like no one's going to
think that this is there is anything but truth in this.
You're not trying to sell a book. It doesn't feel

(01:07:18):
that way. This is your truth. And if you read
your books, there's an evolution there, you know what I mean,
from the first one to this one. And now it's
almost like you have your on your way. Sorry, saying
to Shawna yesterday, I was talking to an author in
San Francisco that I was with a few weeks ago,
and I said, she's a really Rebecca Solmna. She's an
incredible author, and she writes all these great books men

(01:07:41):
explain things. And I think you had hope in the
dark up in your room. Anyway, she was saying, I go,
I just feel like she had read my book. She
had given me a blurb for it. So she I
was having dinner with her and she said, you know,
I just she goes, You're just I go, I don't
really know what my talent is. I don't think I
what and just a loud mouth. And she goes, No,
you're a truth teller. You tell your true and you
tell your story, and your story is going to help people.

(01:08:03):
It always has your humor. You're just being honest with
yourself and sometimes that's the only gift you need. And
I was like, oh, thank you. I was wondering what
my fucking gift is. And it's like, if it's just
talking it because you feel like an asshole talking about
yourself all the time. I mean, we all know how
that feels. So to make a living doing it feels
gross too, But we do that too. And for me,

(01:08:23):
it's like, oh, just keep telling the truth and you'll
have an impact. And by the way, who knows what
the next half of your life is going to be.
This whole Chelsea, Chelsea, Chelsea could be the beginning. That's
the foundation for something much much bigger and greater. You
actually are in this book telling everybody your story. You
talk about family in a way that is like, oh, family,

(01:08:45):
no matter how dysfunctional it is, is everything. The other
thing is that we're all we're all we all have
childhood trauma, all of us, all of them. So we're
all in pain for some reason, yes, and that's what
keeps us the same. So like, even though you're not unlocking,
like even though my experience is different than yours, of
course it's relatable because we've all had those moments that
have stained us forever or put us in a certain

(01:09:07):
path forever. And the message is to unlock it to like,
you're worth discovering, you're worth spending the time to get
past it. But you did hit on something in this again,
which is that you have to deal with your own
shit in order to actually be able to go out
and entirely help people entirely. Who calls the other more?

(01:09:28):
I think you call me more? Yeah, yeah, Okay, I'll
accept that. I do that because I always feel like
she's probably in the middle of something. She's busy, she's busy,
and I want to but I'm like, you know, she'll
be markedly be annoyed because she's right in the middle
of filming something. Okay, okay, next question, the last I mean,
we know the answers to this one. Who gets the

(01:09:50):
last word during an argument. I mean, just like, do
you even argue with her? Would you even attempt it?
As I've gotten older, I have attempted more often. But
you know, how do you stand politically? Well, we're with
each other total. I don't know what you're talking because
we don't have anything. But there's what are you arguing about?
What are you guys arguing about at the rational the game? Huh?

(01:10:13):
What are you guys arguing about? Nothing? No? When she
when Kate sort of talks about the things that I
let my kids do and the movies then the way
I live my life with my kids, and I'm like,
my kids are fucking awesome, Like, I'll do it the
way I want to do it. He he lets his
kids watch things that I think. Here's the thing. They

(01:10:35):
spend so much time together. I'm like, Oliver, you can't
let the kids watch like the Exorcist. They're like eight,
and it's terrible for that. Fine, right, And so for
me that's where we argue. And I'm like, well, and
this is where we're going to sit with dance sequel,
and he's going to expect. I also think that you
shelter your kids way too much. You don't let them

(01:10:57):
do enough. You're live in fear. Oh I don't. You're
extremely fearful of them getting her, dying, falling. And I
mean strict, mean she's super yeah, very strict. I'm not
an Oliver is the opposite. Yeah, I mean I'm strict.
I need to be. What's one thing you would change
about your sibling? Well, that's a good question. Change. She's

(01:11:20):
very restless. She's always like, you know, like has to
jump off the couch and go get something, go do something.
Even when we were like teenagers, you know, on the vineyard,
she'd you know, I'm gonna go for a run. I
want to go do this. I want to do that,
like she couldn't just like like full it. But that's
getting better too, that's actually I think that's adhd. I
did I think I have add But Dan says he

(01:11:41):
doesn't think I have it, And then it was an
eight hour test and I was like, I definitely don't
have the patience to take that. So I guess we'll
just have to assume I have it. And what would
you change about her or want her to change for
herself something that would better her. I just always want
her to be more empowered even though she is in
her mind Like for me, I want her to be
more were in control of her destiny, like driving it,

(01:12:04):
and that's what I want for everybody. So I think
that's more of you know, there is a statistic that
says that it's like seventy five percent of parents actually
prefer one child over at the other. Well, I know
what mine is. They'll never definitely all around, right, yeah,
they'll never admit it. But in your guys sibling group, well,
I think my dad was just SMI with Chelsey just

(01:12:26):
I mean it was he didn't really try to hide
it or you know, did you have resentment at all
for that? I mean, it was just kind of a joke.
I mean, everybody knew it, and it was like that's
how it is, you know. And someone legitimately thinks she's
Dad's favorite still, so she didn't see it that way.
So she's the delusional sister. He did like her, But

(01:12:49):
then once I came along and I was like, Okay,
things are going to start to happen here. Like I
think he just liked the idea that I was financially
you know what I mean, I was successful, and that
made it a huge big, you know, ranbo around me.
My mom sounded like that probably didn't happen. She was
like just knitting and singing and saying okay to everybody.
And Seanna was my mom's favorite, the closest to her.

(01:13:11):
But I never felt jealous of it. I thought, oh,
those two are alike. Let them go do their thing
and I'll go with the boys. Like they were very
close and so my mom. But I never felt marginalized
by my mom more so than you know, them not
picking me up from Hebrew School or whatever. Okay, so well,
so for this one, actually this question, we are, Katie
and I are basically making like a ten thousand dollars

(01:13:33):
bet and tis at the end of the season once
this is tallied up, and you'll know in a second,
we give that to the charity of our choice. So
after this interview, I get to choose my charity or
he gives right. Who do you like more? You have
to answer? We won't be offended after this interview, now,

(01:13:55):
you know, just take everything into this, take everything I like.
My relationship with you is already peaked, you know what
I mean. So I have more affection for her right
now because we're more similar and and I feel like
I already might be crushing him. This might not be
good for It's fine, it's fine, favorite, we've peaked. What

(01:14:16):
I meant to say was that I like you more.
I'm attracted to you more. You're smarter, you're better looking. Parents.
But I don't have a sister, so she's going to
go with Okay, okay, and I'm also attracted to you more. Yeah,

(01:14:45):
third sibling in here, so it's not Yeah, Glenn, your
one year anniversary show. We're going to come back with
all of our siblings the best and then you guys,
all of our siblings will all get in the room
and just bang it out. All right, Love you guys,
Thank you so much. Sibling Revelry is executive duced by

(01:15:07):
Kate Hudson, Alira Hudson and Simson. Supervising producer is Alison Presnank.
Editor is Josh Wendish. Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark.