February 17, 2025 • 53 mins
TLC's Sister Wives took 'Sibling Revelry' to a whole new level!
Janelle Brown and Christine Woolley married the same man and took us along for the wild ride.
Find out how they juggle raising six kids together, and why jealousy ultimately ended their Sister Wives arrangement!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, Revelry.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
That's good, Oliver Hudson. Yes, why are you? I'm pretty good.
I'm good. I'm just a little bit sad. Oh, Oliver,
why are you sad?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Because it's a little gloomy out today and there's fires
in Malibu. Oh that's okay, Oliver. You know, life is interesting,
the ups and the and sometimes shit will pass. I know, Oliver.
So let's me talking to myself. It just reminded me
of something I did in therapy. Oh my god, it
(01:12):
was fucking horrible. This is a while back, dealing with
you know, daddy issues, dealing with sort of you know whatever,
not just daddy issues. Whatever my childhood brought on, you
know that then affected my adult life. And know, therapy
(01:32):
is good for everyone, even if you're from the insanely
fucked up to the you know, the so called normal
or not normal. No one's normal. Everyone has their shit.
Therapy is probably good for every human being on this planet,
but trying to sort of break through something. My therapist
made me do this exercise and I was reminded by
(01:57):
it by me my little sort of talked myself that
I just did. I had to play my current self
and then my younger self, my six year old boy,
would then talk to my adult self, and I would
(02:17):
have to have this conversation with myself as Oliver in
the present day and then Oliver as a six year
old boy. Now it gets better. I had to switch
positions in the couch to talk to myself, so I'd
sit on one end. I'd be like, hey, hey, little man,
like how you doing, and then move over to the
other side of the couch and be like hi, like
(02:39):
I'm okay, Like how are you and then move over
and like, yeah, you look sad, little buddy, like what's
going on? And then I'd switch over and I'd be like,
you know, I just don't feel safe and I feel insecure,
and you know, I just I wish I had my
parents around it. And then I'd switch over and like
it's okay. I mean, it was extremely embarrassed, even though
(03:00):
it's just myself and my therapist when he said it
to me, We're gonna do this exercise, I'm like, no, no, man, like,
come on, like, what the fuh? And he made me
do it and it was awful, it was it was
It's still I think that caused me, That experience caused
me to seek out more therapy. Actually, at the end
(03:23):
of the day, you know, it was more try. That
exercise was more traumatizing than you know, my parents splitting up. Anyway,
I digress this other thing, the I digress thing. I
think I use it right, but I never really know
like I digress. It's not I digressed, meaning like I digressed,
(03:49):
but I digress. I'm gonna ramble mode. Well, we have
some fun guests in the waiting room right now, and uh,
very excited to sort of get into the talking about psychology.
When we're talking about sort of religion faith number one,
(04:09):
but then we're talking about sort of the psychology of
what it feels like and why it feels better to
basically be one of in this situation. I think three
wives to one man. They are from the hit show
Sister Wives, and I think we've all probably caught a
(04:32):
glimpse of it. It's just such so fascinating. It just
speaks to just humanity. How we're all different, we all
feel different things, we all love different things, we all,
you know, different things make us happy. And it's the
beauty of who we are. We're not all one and
the same. Let's get into it. I don't know if
there's anything off limits. I don't know. We'll see. I'll
(04:53):
probably put my foot in my mouth, but that's kind
of the fun of listening to this goddamn show. Christine
Brown and Janelle Brown and bring them in. Let's talk
sister wives. Hello, Janelle, how are you?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh good? I'm with Maddie and Caleb in Greenville, so
in North Carolina because we actually have purchased some property
and we are starting a farm next year.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So amazing. I've been at Greenville a bunch of times. Actually,
have you really?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I used to play in this golf tournament at the
BMW golf tournament there, and I played at thorn Blade,
and I stayed in the little town there in Greenville.
I loved it.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Funny, green feels great. It's such a small town. But
you have really anything that you want. It's it's cute,
cute stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And Christine, where are you and.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Lehi, Utah, like it's Salt Lake City. It's like, if
you see the valley of Salt Lake City, we're like
right over the mountain and you should see the insane
view I have from my back porch. Mountains is gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Is that amazing?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
There? You want to do? You can do and then
within an hour from us?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun.
I let's just get into it, you know what I mean? Like,
first of all, why are you guys in separate locations?
This is all you know, a new experience for me.
So are you where? Why are you living in separate places?
You know? Where is everybody?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah? We lived in flag Staff together, okay, And right
after I left Pody, I moved up to Utah. My
kids are up there and I just wanted to be
up there instead. And flag Staff I don't have a
lot of you know, I have good memories with my
kids and flag Staff, but no things. I don't want
to ever stay there ever again. So I moved to
Salt Lake City, Utah, and lived there for a couple,
(06:48):
like for a couple of years in that location until
I met David and then we moved in together in March.
But I'm going to stay in Utah. I love it here.
It feels like home. I finally feel like I'm home now. Yeah,
there's so many years where we spent wandering and traveling
and moving, and I feel like this is home.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Now with Cod with Cody, you spent these years travel
We moved a.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Lot, like I swear it was every few years. Who
was I think, just always trying to help our family,
be like, get get better financially whatever, And so I
feel like we were always just moving or for whatever reasons.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I one time got mad and I'm like, there's thirteen
people in this badly and you only care about one.
And that was a while ago. But yeah, so we're
just moving a lot. And then we moved. We were
in flag Staff for what three years before I left
and then like.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, okay, and then Janelle, what about what about you?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
After coding and my marriage dissolved, I was in flag
Staff for a while, but then I really I was
really kind of looking for a piece of property to
kind of settle in on. I've always wanted that dream, right,
always want a little few acres and a little farm,
or whatever, and so my daughter Madison and her husband
Caleb were also interested in that. So we started looking
(08:08):
all over the country because Caleb has a job that
allows him to go different places. But it turned out
we found our little piece of heaven or whatever here
in North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They're very close to them, so I'm here and that's
where I will plant my roots. So Christine was just
here last weekend. We still have a lot of family
connection and interaction. Our children are all very close. In fact,
there is a group text that Christine and I are
not part of and they share all the news. And
I was like, mom, it was in the text. I'm like,
(08:41):
I'm not in that text.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
But anyway, so thank you so much for not putting
me in that text. Children. And I did tell them,
I'm like, look, if you're going to try and plant
something with Truly in the sibling chat, that's great, but
can you actually have to tell me? So I plan.
They had this whole trip plan to send to Las
Vegas one time to go to a concert, and they
asked her they could take Truly and then that's the
last I heard of it. And then suddenly they're like
(09:03):
Truly is like Mom, we're looking tomorrow, blah blah. I'm like,
wait what and yeah, it was like right then and there,
and we have to make sure she had everything that
she needed. I'm like, you guys have got it informed me,
you know, just some things like that.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So how many kids? How many kids do you guys have?
Do you know? How many kids do you have?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So I have six?
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Okay, yeah, we both have six.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But then also Mariah's child, Leo Leon is there in
the group as well.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Okay, so so the first Mariah is Leon, Like, you don't.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Even refer to the name anymore. Really, Leon, Mary's child,
got it?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
And so that that name is a is a name
we don't associate with them.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Anymore, got it? Got it? Okay, there's so much I'm
trying to like, I'm trying to map it all out right,
I know, you're all good.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So Mary has one child, and that's Leon, and Leon's
on the group chat with mine and Janelle's kids. And
Mary is not on the group chat, not on the
group chat like us. Right, So Mary lives in Parawan.
She had that as far as I know, I don't.
I don't really talk to Marry that much. So she
(10:12):
lives in Parawan as far as I know, in her
airbnb or something like in there anyway, I guess I
don't know exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay, So six kids and six kids, and and they're
essentially are they their cousins siblings?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
They consider themselves siblings.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
We married Cody, like I, So when we married Cody,
I was the third wife. And after I got married,
that's when all the kids came. And so all the
kids really were raised as siblings. So they refer to
themselves as siblings. They don't use the word half there
to them their full siblings.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, I mean that's like essentially like me, I mean
my my my brother Wyatt is my half brother, but
I mean I don't say that he's he's my brother.
I grew up with him. I mean it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So the kids all they grew up together, and that
one goal that we really had when we put our
family together was to have them be true, truly siblings,
to feel like they were all and they all grew
up together, like they're all intermixed age wise, and so
they do. They're very much siblings.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah. Okay, yeah, no, I bet now working backwards just
a little bit, because usually you kind of start at
the beginning, but you know, I'm a pretty fluid, you know,
conversation guy. So dissolving a marriage, like, how does that work?
Is it pretty much standard practices even though there were
(11:35):
three of you, you know? Or is there something that
has to be done differently that we don't know about
or I don't know about.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
We had like spiritual marriage, so I wasn't leave, So
a minus from Janelle as far as our path goes
and stuff. So we both were spiritually and married, so
in our church there was a religious feeling that we had.
So once it was time for me to leave, and
(12:03):
you know, you don't know you have to leave until
you know you have to leave, and then at that
point I was like, okay, I've just got to go.
And so for me, it was a spiritual journey as
far as praying to God and making sure he was
okay with me leaving and that was going to be fine.
It was going and traveling to North Carolina and talking
to Maddie and saying, if I leave your dad, am
(12:26):
I still going to have access to your children? And
she's like, You're always going to be their ownA I'm like, okay,
that's good. So like all the grandkids are ours, mine engines,
they're all ours, and so it was talking to her
and making sure she would be okay with it. And
then I just told all of the adults that I
(12:47):
was going to be lead, that I was leaving Cody.
And then I just decided, like I kicked him out
of my room, my bedroom. I just told I didn't
want him to be in my bed anymore. If you
didn't really want to be in there, I didn't want
him in there, and I only wanted someone in my
bed that loved me, and that was at that time me.
(13:07):
So I kicked him out and at that city I
consider my official divorce, because you can't really have an
official divorce, there's no paper work.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
How does everyone take that situation? Do you have to
confer you know? Or are you on your own and say, no,
this is the way I feel, and I respect the
way that everyone else might feel in their opinions, but
you know, I am, I have free will, and I
don't want to be in this anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
That's pretty much it, I think. I mean, you can decide,
and then it's really up to you to decide. I
think what steps you want to take? So Mary actually
went ahead and did the steps and went to the
church that we were married in and have the official release.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
She actually did the official thing. I really haven't. My
marriage is over. I don't know what I'm going to do.
I'm not really interested in getting married again or even
really dating at this stage. So I'm not even thinking
about like, oh, what do I need to do, because
I'm just like, I am over, I am done. I
love my single life, and you know, if that if
something presents itself in the future, then I'll consider what
(14:24):
I need to do, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
So you know something that was cool, Oliver, When I
told everybody that I was leaving, Janelle called me and
she's like, Okay, you know, we've all known that you've
been struggling with Cody for years and everything like that.
But she came over and she's like, what does that
mean for us? You know, as far as sister always
go with our relationship. She's like, I've raised we've raised
kids together, so what does that mean. I'm like, We're
(14:48):
just going to continue doing what we're doing. We're just
going to continue in the relationships that we have. I'm
close to Janelle. I wasn't close to Mary and Robins.
I wasn't going to stay close to them. But then
Janelle and I went to Disneyland together. We took our
youngest with us. She took Sananna, I took Truly, and
the four of us went and I think on that trip,
for me, I realized, oh, do you know still my
(15:09):
sister wife. She's always going to be my sister even
though we both got married, Tody, we're just going to
sister wives and we're going to be in each other's
lives for the rest of our lives. We have kids,
we've raised together, we have grandkids together, and we're just
going to keep doing things and hanging out. And I
just got home a couple days ago from hanging out
with her, and we're just going to stay in each
other's lives.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It's a good thing. I like David, it's a good thing.
I like you.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I'm really glad.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Nobody likes me too.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
You know, we're going to go on trips together. We're
going to keep going together.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So then going going backwards, going way way way back.
I mean, obviously you guys were born into the religion
that you're in, right, No, No, I was you were
not okay? You are not okay? And what about you, Chris?
What about you? Christine?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Were you? I was? I had two moms. My dad
married my other mom when I was five. I wore
a burgress my mom, but my hair and curlers the
night before, and I remember her wedding day really really well.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay. And then Janelle, you were not born into it.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
No, So I grew up in the mainstream LBS church
because they are separate, okay. And it wasn't I wasn't.
I was probably in my I was probably twenty two
twenty three when I finally really seriously considered the fundamentalist
branch or of the fundamentalist faith.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So and explain that a little bit. You know. I
know that probably a lot of people have seen the
show and followed your guy's story and understand it, I
mean to you know, to be fair, I haven't really,
but it's just it's interesting to me. And in my intro,
you know, I did my own little old song and dance,
but then I just talked about, you know, the human
(16:48):
condition and how we're all different, and how we all
need and want and experience different things, and there are
different things that make us happy, you know, until they don't,
and then you move on to something else. You know, Now,
when you are in a situation, whether it be what
you guys are in or you know, a job or whatever,
where you're feeling like you want out and there's restrictions
(17:11):
there but you can't, that's one thing. But if it's
all of free will, then shit, man, like, do whatever
the hell you want to do. You know what I'm saying.
That's my that's my personal feeling about just life in general.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Obviously, Christine, you grew up in this. This is what
you've learned, it's what you've seen, you know. But just
take me through the fundamentalist sort of ideas of what
this is, of what polygamy is, of what multiple wives are,
of sister wives, of all of it, Like, what is
the sort of you know, gospel behind it.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Sure, so we can both talk about with Janelle's good
at numbers and everything in history remembering all of that,
but basically the beginning of the Mormon Church. Back when
Joseph Smith was the founder of the Mormon Church or
LDS Church, really one of the tenets of faith that
he felt like he was inspired to live was plural
(18:10):
marriage and continue and live plural marriage himself, which is
plural marriages having more than one wife. And then you
know that trickled down through the presidency and through the members,
and it's just if you look in like the scriptural
references as far as living plural marriage goes, it just
talks about it. So you know, it's what you believe
(18:33):
and will get you to the highest degree in the
celestial kingdom, which is you know, heaven, and it helps
to be a better person. It helps like rough off
the round edges. And it's not something I believe in
anymore at all. I don't plan on living it again,
it's not it doesn't fit with me anymore. But I
have siblings who live it and they all thrive and
(18:56):
they're doing really well. Some are doing well, but you know,
just because life is life, and so it's just one
of the tenants of the faith of the Fundamentalist Mormon Church.
ELDS Church does not practice plural marriage at all.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Okay, really truly, I mean it really is simply like
every faith has a way to enlighten it, right, Like
it's it's really you have to get over yourself. A
man has to expand his capacity. A woman has to
learn her own value. I mean, there's it's like it's
a it's a pathway. It's a pathway to progression. So
(19:35):
I mean, that's not the only part of the faith.
There's a lot of other parts of the faith, but
that is one of the that's the biggest tenant that
separates us from the mainstream LDS churches we still practice
or that church. I mean, I'm not really a member anymore,
but that church practices plural marriage.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, and so and Janelle, are you are you out
of it like Christine is?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, I mean I still I still have very much.
I had, still have a very close relationship with God.
I still am very prayerful, and I'm still a very
religious person. But I am not in the faith anymore. No,
I mean I still I still actually hold most of
the LBS beliefs, but I am not in the plural
I'm not in the fundamentalist And.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What does it look like to sort of.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Exit that you just don't go anymore?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You don't go and you're not Do you lose friends,
do you lose family members?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
You know, Being sort of a convert at a later age,
I really didn't know a lot of people. I still
am very close to all of my family that practices
still like I still a lot of Cody's family. Actually,
I'm still very close to you know, so I haven't
really lost anybody, and not really.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
You know, my favorite thing happens. I was at Costco
the other day because that's where you meet up with
everybody's Costco. And there was a whole like a group
met me. So it was a man and he had
two wives with him and then a couple of their kids,
and it was the entire range of emotion, all of it,
you guys, it was crazy. So some of them were
completely like, Christine, there you are. It's been forever and
(21:09):
I missed you and la la lah, and here's a hug,
and you know, picking upright where you left off. And
other people were kind of like one of them was
very uncomfortable and they're like, oh, what do we do
with her? She's left? Now? Does that mean that we
can you know? How is that? Does she hate plaguing me?
She is she not going to like me because she left?
And maybe she's bitter or maybe she's angry about her
she you know, maybe she's left religion in general. And
(21:31):
I don't know where I stand. So everybody it was
like from the and then one was physically uncomfortable, and like, okay,
it was it was lovely. So you get all ranges
of emotion with you know, acceptance, not understanding, absolute like well,
I think we're done that kind of a thing just
because you are leaving. I was leaving something that I
knew all of my life, and I realized it just
(21:53):
wasn't going to fit me anymore. I felt it was
too controlling for me. And I told Cody. One of
the great things that I really appreciate about Cody, like
in the church, who wear garments, like in the in
the LDS, they and I took mine off and I
told Cody I wasn't gonna wear them anymore. And he goes, well,
how is your relationship with God? I said, it's fine.
(22:14):
God doesn't hear if I wear them. I mean, for me,
God doesn't hear that I wear them. He goes, okay,
that's fine then, and with it. He didn't care, he
didn't raise it. He was like, it's your relationship with God,
that's the most important thing. And that's what he always
taught our kids. And I really appreciated that because it
was it is. What you do is you need to
have your own personal relationships, you know, with God, and
(22:35):
you shouldn't have to have an ecclesiastical authority. And so
I really appreciated that. But leveing takes a while too.
It's not like suddenly you're done. It was like a
trickling away, and it was like gone away in pieces.
There were certain things I just didn't believe anymore. I
couldn't make them fit into my paradigm of understanding the world.
We met after we met public, Oh my gosh, we
(22:57):
met the most amazing people and so many different walks
of life and faith. And I'm like, these people are
amazing and their relationship with God is just as strong
as mine.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, but when did you but when did you start
to realize that? You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Like you went, Yeah, when I started questioning like myself?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because you know, when you're even when
you're eighteen nineteen years old, I mean that's when sort
of your brain is moving, You're you're you're sort of
stepping outside of what you've been what is learned, you know,
and you start to sort of establish your own sort
of thoughts and feelings and ideas. You know, our brain
I don't think is fully developed until we're in our
mid twenties, you know, from just a biological standpoint.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You know, it's so interesting because I actually chose the faith. Yeah,
for me, it was a very it was a very
logical choice for me, and I never really felt like
plural manager was very controlling. I actually felt very independent.
I felt like I had a lot of freedom. And
I think it really is about what you make of it, right,
whether you choose to embrace who you are and be
(24:01):
strong and who you are and be independent and live
a life, or if you sit around kind of comparing
or pining or whatever you know, for you know, I
don't know, Like I just felt like it was very independent.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Were you in the church though, Janelle? Like before you
found at twenty two? Like where were you like from
zero to twenty two?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So I was in the LDS Church. But that is
my family practically disowned me when I joined the Fundamentalist
faith because you know, that was not done, that was
definitely not done, and so they were very upset with me.
So isn't really something that's embraced in the LDS church
the mainstream LDAs Church. So I mean, for me, it
(24:41):
was a choice. I felt very called to live the
life and I found a lot of independence and freedom.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
What drew you to to the fundamental side of things.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I've always been someone who very much sought to do
what God what would bring me closer to God, and
I really felt like that was what this was. Was
just it was a devotion. It was a devotional thing
for me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Now that you have sort of moved beyond that side
of fits not to say that you don't have maybe
even a stronger relationship with God, like when you reflect
back on the reasons you did join. Yeah, now you're
an older woman who can reflect. How do you speak
to that younger person? Do you know?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I'm actually really really grateful, And this is one thing
Christine and I've really talked about, is we're so grateful
for experience. I personally am very grateful for the growth
that I experienced, beginning to be very confident in who
I was, knowing who I was, knowing my own strengths,
and not feeling like I had to always measure up
against somebody else. But then we also had this tremendous
family experience that I never would have had without a
(25:59):
big family, So I'm really grateful for that, really truly.
And Christina and I both said, you know, we wouldn't
go back and change anything because all we have now
is really great.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh of course. I mean I think, you know, just
forget forgetting about forget about religion or anything. Really. I mean,
I've been asked that question too, just interviews. I'm very
open about my my life and the things that I've
gone through and the anxieties that I've had. And you know,
there's been infidelity in my relationships that has been you know,
(26:31):
dealt with through just internal just just sort of self expression,
self realization. I wouldn't change a thing. Actually I got
dinged and not Dan, but it was picked up in
the newspapers like Oliver Hudson wouldn't change a thing, and
da da da da, And I'm like, well, of course not,
because I'm happy with who I am now. I am
(26:52):
happy with sort of my philosophies on life and the
things that I have gone through, the character building experiences,
the pain having to sort of navigate all of that.
I don't know who I'd be without it, So why
would I change it? You know?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I think we're the some of our were some of
our parts. Right. I feel like you always like you
become richer, a richer person as you go through life experiences,
and some of them are not so great. Right now,
I'm not so righty, but just make it you are.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I mean now if I was, if I was
a completely screwed up individual and on drugs and in
a gutter somewhere, then maybe I would want to change something,
you know what I'm saying. But yeah, right right, you know,
but I fought, I was, I always fight. I'm always fighting.
You always fighting. You know who you are and your
own psychology and educating yourself and there it's it's it's
(27:45):
a forever process, you know what I'm saying. Which is
the beauty.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I think it's a constant progression. There was one time
that I have to tell you when I was leaving
and I was just so still frustrated, and so I
remember just saying I don't think I even like clicking
me more above a toganelle. And she's like, wait a minute,
a minut. She's like, come on, you live in plural
marriage is the reason why you can do so many
things you can do. She's like, I'll never forget how
you just did the whole irrigation system by yourself in Wyoming.
(28:10):
You know how you you know, did all of these things.
You did things all the time. You could just pick
up and leave and you could go. And the independence
that you learn and that you found is something that's
who you are. And it's like I decided at that
point to same as you're saying, like you realize that
this is all a path and this is all a journey.
And there's some memories that I make sure they stay special,
(28:32):
they stay good days, and I never let anything like
negative or anything like that just creeped in. You just
have a lot of actually have so many good, wonderful
memories with our family and where it's brought us, and
with our kids being as tight as they are. I mean,
it's it's absolutely awful.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
But actually none of our children have embraced the faith.
I mean, they are all doing their own things.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
That was going to be a later question, but now
that you're bringing into it, like how about all the kids?
Like where are they at with all this?
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Really we did raise them to really disperse and foremost
have a good relationship with God, and I think they
all have sort of found their path. Some are not
even really big believers of God, and that's okay. We're
all still we all have this foundational family and it
doesn't really matter what everybody thinks or believes. You know,
everybody here is very different. They're all the whole spectrum.
(29:20):
I love it, and I love it because we still
get all together and we still have so much fun
and we just we celebrate the things that are in common,
which are lots of thing.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Well, it seems like our biggest goal it was about
getting a development with God. But then it was also
become a productive person, productive to this and make sure
you have a sense of purpose and you have a direction.
And so it was all about too, like, have a
sense of purpose, have someplace that you're always moving towards.
You're always better in yourself, always looking at people like
with a way to understand them, you know. Lovely having
(29:53):
for it, like so many different parents, I think really
helped our kids to kind of fine tune because you
have all those special conversations with each of the kids,
so they learn from all of us and all of
our parentings do has I mean, I learned things from
my other mom that were totally invaluable and I'm so
grateful that she's always been in my life.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Your Here's what's interesting, though, you know, going down that
path a little bit, is that, yeah, I have three kids,
you know, I have one wife. Obviously, you know you
have to be on the same page. There's a fundamental
belief on how you want to raise your kids, but
how you get to that place sometimes can be different,
very and it's just in relationships and single relationships in general.
(30:34):
It's that don't you undermine me? Or or you know,
like I told him no and now you're telling him yes.
I mean, there's so many there are so there are
so many sort of disconnects and parenting. I mean, imagine
when you have a thousand parents, like how do you
how do you? How do you deal with that? Where
it's like wait a minute, this is I do it
(30:54):
this way, and you might do it this way, but
then he does it this way, but then she does
it that way. I mean, it could be a web
of insanity.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Well, I think that we always sort of respected everybody.
Everybody had their biological children, right, and so they kind
of had a culture in their families. But then there
was some a big general culture that we sort of
just had to mesh our cultures, Christmas traditions, holiday traditions,
the way that like do kids get to like I
(31:23):
remember one of the very early on could the kids
play in the cupboards? Addishes in the kitchen?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah, we're messes? Okay, what kinds of messes? And how
do you fold? And do you care if they even
fold anything?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (31:36):
But you know what the kids learn too is how
to navigate parents. You know, how your.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Kids to go to if they had a question they
want to ask a yes, they know who.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
To go to, learn pretty quickly who to get yeses from,
and like.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
If they want to go do the crazy Black Friday shopping,
do not sign me up Christine's She's in the car
waiting for them at one am.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Or to keep us warm?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, no, no. I mean, you know, my sister has
three kids and I have three kids, and you know,
all cousins are like best friends. But but she does
it totally differently than I do. She looks at the
way that I raise my kids and she's like, Jesus man,
you are too lenient. You let them watch like horror
movies at the age of three. I mean, you know,
(32:24):
I curse in front of my kids. You know, I'll
drink in front of my kids. I used to smoke cigarettes, smoke.
I'm going to be me in front of my children.
I'm not gonna hide anything. Now. Can you do it?
Can you say bad words? Am I an example to
you right now?
Speaker 4 (32:39):
No?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Of course not. I'm not your role model yet. This
is who I am. I'm an adult. When you become
an adult or when you get to be older, then
you can make these choices. But I'm not gonna sneak around.
I mean, I think that's almost worse than them knowing
out front. They're gonna find it, they're gonna see, they're
gonna see the booze, they're gonna see the cigarettes. And
for me to go outsideigrette like coming like hey and
(33:02):
stink of cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Well, it's the level of teaching them respect.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Right, there's a respect where my sister's like, what, you're crazy?
I would that, So it's just different, you know, we'd
just do it differently.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I was definitely more pious like before.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Oh some yeah, my kids have some funny stories.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Christine was very black and white, very black woman.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
I believe that you should raise kids black and white.
So for me, it was like hard at PG thirteen
was when you're thirteen.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And my kids benefited.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
They really did benefit from you know, and who knows
some kids, I'm sure look back and they're super bitter.
But I have to tell you why. I watched The
Conjuring with truly just a couple of days ago, and
it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It all one of the best horror amazing. It is
one of my favorites horror buff our family. I've seen
every horror movie. Who Conjuring is my one of my
no I.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Saw it in the airplane, mind you with the screen
distake on the back of it.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
That might be less scary so much that scary scar.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, that was amazing. So I've come a long way
because horror was certainly not allowed in my home and everything.
So it's it's you changed to it's important to teach
your kids too. Is that change is okay?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
To see the differences in personality and stuff in the
spectrum of adults. I think actually gave our kids a
pretty good tool. They gave it, gave them a tool
some tools going into real life, because you're going to
meet all these different personalities like I've had my kids
have come home and had bosses that were very rigid
and strict, and like they had and Mary is very
(34:35):
much like she's very she's very rigid, she's very strict,
and so they had dealt with that and they're like, oh, okay,
I know how.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
To do this.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. I love what you guys said,
where it's like, look, we're going to, you know, show
them a path that I was on, that we believe in,
not was are now currently with your relationship with God
and if you choose to, you know, follow it. Great.
If you don't belie even God, I love you. I mean,
(35:05):
you do whatever you want to do. I mean, that's
it's a beautiful way to sort of do it. Because
I have a lot of friends, well not a lot,
but a lot two or three friends who were raised
in a extremely God fearing place and it's screwed them up.
At the end of the day, they've come out of it,
(35:26):
but they had to go through a lot because they were,
you know, essentially disowned sometimes if they didn't believe what
your parents believed. You know, that's hard.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
That's sad to me. I like that our kids are
so individual. They all chosen different things, and oh my gosh,
I've learned so many things from them. Then. It's just
amazing that all the things that they've learned about life
and the different people they've met, and the walks of
faith that they have, and you know, I really feel
blessed that we were able to set up our family
like we did. That kind of just kind of fell
into place. But we did have discussions about it back
(35:58):
in Wyoming where we did side, you know, do we
want our kids to live plural marriage? It was like, no,
I think that we just want them to have a
good relationship with God. And that was at the very
very beginning of all even though we talked them I
don't know, trying to teach them my example, I guess,
and things like that definitely definitely changed. So just grateful
that they're just good people. They treat people with kindness.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Are any of them wanting to follow in that sort
of plural marriage past? No?
Speaker 4 (36:24):
No, no, no, that's death. First.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Do you think social media and sort of the connectivity
of the world through technology now has changed a little
bit of that.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
I don't think it's technology. I don't think it's technology.
I think it's that we weren't in the faith anymore.
We lived in Vegas, and for all of those years,
instead of our kids hanging out with other Plaguma's children,
they hang out with kids that were everybody else the
whole open world. So I think because we exposed them
and ourselves to more people that lived outside of, you know, whatever,
(36:58):
the fundamentalist faith, that that's the reason why that happened too.
I think we just showed them a whole broader world.
So for them, they just got to see a broad
a picture. But then also we do believe that there
should be a calling that you do feel to live
in any religion, to be a part of any religion,
and none of them have the calling to even be
a member of the church we were previously.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
One thing, I am glad we do have a very
much or more open world, right we do now, and
we've definitely had a much bigger life. I feel like
our children have for sure.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
One reason that we originally went public was to sort
of expand people's ideas of what plural marriage was, you
know what I mean, like were it was the train
wrecks making the news, right, and we were looking at
ourselves and we're like, Wow, this isn't really us anymore
about it. I mean, like, this isn't really us, And
so we really did. It was very scary for us
to go public because everybody was very afraid, our community
(37:54):
was very afraid that we would somehow out them and
they would we would bring the law down on them
or whatever. But I am really great that we've had
that experience and we've been able to share with people.
And granted it's it's sort of a train wreck now,
but hey, that's normal family life, right, that's normal family life.
Like you said, yourself, relationships evolve and change, and we're
(38:14):
doing it obviously now in a very public forum, and
we're seeing all the nitty gritty and the mean things
that you say to each other when a relationship is
hinting or whatever. It's, oh my gosh, Like, we're real people, right,
And I think that's what we set out to show,
was that we're just real people who've made a choice
to live a little bit differently and it isn't always
about control, and it isn't always about having to wear
(38:36):
a certain dress or having to you know. We really
wanted to show that we were real people and even
as rough as it is, we are now still showing.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
That getting to that point. You know, you guys are
strong female, strong women, you know what I mean? Like
(39:05):
I don't quite and you can explain sort of understand
the role of the female in that fundamentalist world. But
you know, would you can first of all, would you
consider yourself feminists? Not in the extreme sense of the word.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Ye? Okay, so definitely I believe, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Okay, So take take that part of it. Are you
are you newfound feminists or do you think you've been
a feminist from the beginning? And then if you have, like,
how do you square sort of the female role in
that fundamental world with sort of how you kind of
feel on the inside and how you maybe have acquiesced
to parts of it that were against your morality as
(39:48):
a female.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So I've always considered myself a feminist, which meaning that
women could do anything, any job or anything, have any
opportunity that a man could have. And I also sort
of felt like I could be very independent, and so
a plural marriage allowed me to function within a marriage
and have a family and still be very independent. For me,
that was the ideal merge of the two worlds. A
(40:11):
feminist world as well as I really did want to
have a family and I really did want to have
that partnership with a spouse. And so for me, I
feel like I've just even continued to grow in my independence.
I have an independence that I didn't even comprehend I
could have when I was twenty two, twenty three, and
in tandem with having a family. So to me, I
(40:32):
feel like I've had it all. I've had the best
of both worlds. I've had career, I've raised family, I
have a beautiful family, and I have a lot of
professional opportunity, and I sort of feel like I've got
it all, Like I've got everything now, do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Mm hm. Were you ever like in the moment thinking well,
this is bullshit, I don't want to wear this, so
this is you know, I mean, internally resisting.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
We didn't ever have anything that we had to wear.
We wore regular clothes, you know what I mean. So
that was one of the reasons we went public, was
to show that, you know, hey, I don't have to
wear the dress. I don't have to wear the hair.
That's not part of it. That's some sort of weird
dogma that has crept in to some of the sex,
you know what I mean, And so that was we
(41:18):
were really out to show that we were just regular people.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
I was definitely the same thing a feminists from the
very beginning. I mean, even watching my grandma's and how
strong and independent they were and they could do everything
and anything. And I got to watch my moms be
so strong and they could do everything and anything I
wanted to do. And then I got married and really
whatever I wanted to do, I just learned how to do.
Accepting you to be fixed, I fixed it. If that
(41:41):
need to be done, I did it. And you just
learn how to be strong and independent and stand up
for yourself and five for yourself. And I mean I
always would tell my kids, like definition of gentlemen, definition
of a lady, they're both the exact same thing. They're
just making sure that everybody in the room is comfortable.
So as far as feminism goes, I think it's my
(42:02):
job to make sure that everyone is accepted and everyone
is accepted at their level where there. I think that's
what true feminism is is realizing we all have a
power within us that needs to be heard and needs
to be valued, and maybe not understood, but it still
needs to be heard.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And you never felt that that power was, you know,
sort of being suffocated in any way in my experience,
not for you.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Some days for me, I was like, you know, I
don't know if I'm necessarily being treated to me. It
was a thing of equality, and so I felt like
I wasn't being treated as an equal, it wasn't being
treated as a wife. I felt that for the last
several years of being married to Codd, I didn't feel
like so I felt in our family sometimes I was
(42:49):
a second class wife, and that was very frustrating to me,
very frustrating.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
That's interesting, you know, because then there then you know,
it all sounds great, and then and there that comparison
starts to happen when you have sort of you know,
multiple wives or people in those relationships, like you're getting
more attention than you and well, I.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Felt like Cody was comparing. I feel like the comparing
starting with Cody.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
No, that's what I mean, That's what I mean.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I couldn't either. There's no way I'm going to be
a wife like Robin. I don't sign me up. I'm
not going to do what you want me to do.
All the time or whatever she did. I don't know exactly. Yeah,
I'm going to be me, you know, and so that
I mean, I just feel like there was a lot
of comparing that happened, and there was a pedestal that
was I'm not going to do that. I'm not going
to do that. So I'm not going to conform my
(43:35):
life to what you want me to be. I'm going
to conform my life to what I want me to be.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Well, I also think, you know, human nature is is
when you have a group of people in general, like
you're going to gravitate towards one more than the other.
I'm not talking about just in your situation, but just
in a group of people, Like there's a connection, there's
a chemistry that happens when you have multiple wives. I'm
sure that that's just a natural thing where you are
gravitating more towards.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
At all of our not a plural life, I know,
But isn't that.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
But isn't But isn't that human sort of like just
feeling really truly?
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So a woman comes in and she her her role
is to kind of learn her value and learn how
to be independent all that he actually is failing if
he is allowing one relationship to be more significant. That
is the man's challenge in living plural marriage. They have
to expand their capacity emotionally. Look, most guys don't really
want to sign me up. Don't sign me up. They
(44:28):
all think like the great, the sex is all great,
Like I get, you know, but but like there's an
emotional component that comes along when you're when you're having
multiple families, you have to meet the needs of your
wives and your children. So he was failing when he
when he was failing the standard. God when that started
to happen so interesting, So that was his that was
(44:49):
a failure on his partner.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Right, right, And how does that you know? Are with
you guys? But just in general, I mean, you know,
as far as intimacy goes, or just even connectivity go,
I mean, is there is there jealousy that happens, you know,
within the groups?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
I didn't feel jealous too much. I didn't really feel
jealous before Robin. Before Cody married Robin, I feel like
what they had was a true soulmate relationship. And I
really felt like he started to focus so much on
Robin and her kids. So for me, I didn't get
jealous until then, and then suddenly when your needs are
being met, and like when his capacity wasn't growing anymore
(45:26):
to you know, be there for all of us. I
feel like that's when jealousy really started to creep in.
Got it and for me, and before that didn't matter. Before,
I'm like, everyone's needs are being mad.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
I think you're fine, and even the intimate part of it,
it's not doesn't matter, Like it's just part of the
part of the deal. There's no jealousy when it comes
to that stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Well, you're not comparing notes and you're definitely not. Everybody's
talking about it. Very sad, no, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
But like with my wife when I first met her,
most men don't want to know anything. I'm different. I'm like,
I want to know every dude you've been with, every
detail because I don't want to run into this guy,
you know. But I'm sort of like a jealous ish person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
No, we respect the sanctity of that marriage boundaries, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Okay, Well that's great. I mean, but you know, you
gotta there's gotta be chat behind the camera's cutting.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
No. Never, I've never, no, because I just I didn't
feel like that was my business, and I didn't feel
like it would be helpful to know, so I didn't
really care.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
The guy was more separate marriages, and we kept them
separate as far as the we mind bitch about something
Cody did, Like hell, he went out and bought that car,
uge the luggage.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
There were definitely things that were yeah, well this has
been amazing, Like I could talk to you guys forever.
It's just so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
We've appreciated it.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
No, I really it's amazing, and I love, you know,
to sort of see how strong you guys are, and
you know how independent you are, and and sort of
turning the you know, just the the idea of what
this is on its head, you know, to watch and
to see how these experiences have made you who you
are and have created these strong ass women who are
(47:18):
living their lives the way that they want to live
it right now.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
That's what they want. My motto to be a strong
ass woman who's living her life.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
No, it's true. I mean, it's so it's so it's
so great. I mean, it's it's just awesome to have
this chat, you know. And then so the show is
out right, the season is airing right now. It's airing right.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Now every Sunday Sunday night on TLC.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Okay, and and you want to for okay real quick
and then we'll go. But like, I didn't get into this.
How did this even happen? How did the TV show
even come about?
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Yes? So I was in a group of people that
were in charge of spreading, spreading, puguing me awareness basically,
and someone reached out to me through that group and
then I'm like, then they hooked Hi up with Cody
and was He ended up being our producer for years
and years and years. But we all sat down and
we talked and he's like, I want to do a
(48:11):
documentary on your family, and we're like, that won't work.
If you do a documentary and you open up our family,
we're going to all lose our jobs, our kids are
going to be bullied in school. We can't do that.
It was a felony back then. So we're like, we'd
have to have it be a series, and so he
and he became a producer and one of our very
good friends for years. So he took it and he
(48:32):
found TLC and they partnered with us, and it's that
first time when we were sitting there in this room
with all these TLC executives and executives, and like the
like reality television, they showed our pilot and there we
are just these this small family who were so scared
of the whole outside world, and they showed our family.
(48:53):
They're on a big screen with all of these strangers,
and at the end everyone went totally. It was so silence,
and then they started clapping and we're like, it was hard.
It was super scary to go public. It was hard.
All outside the world is a scary thing. But I
feel like what's come from it the understanding that people
(49:14):
have now towards plural marriage, but then also realizing that
we're just like them and everybody. It seems like every
woman that I meet associates with one of us and
identifies with one of.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Us well, because I think when you hear when you
hear plural marriage, when you hear polygamy, it's it's immediately
the connotation is a dude with a bunch of women
and he's having his way and he's he's you know,
lording over them, and that that's the just the idea,
when without even understanding the reality and the truth of it,
you know, so there's a nice expose that you guys
(49:48):
were able to do. Say no, no, no, no, no no.
It's not just about that, no, no, no, right, but.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
We also just if I can really quickly get through
our efforts, and especially we have some very dear friends
who worked very hard to hand it him. With the
legislature in Utah, plaguing me was decriminalized. So everybody he is,
not nearly is afraid. They can come out of the shadows.
They can live openly. And that is really huge as
far as some of the things you know that the
(50:14):
community was stumbling with.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
That's great. I mean why why why make that a
federal Why make that a felony?
Speaker 4 (50:22):
I mean, lovely that it is criminalize?
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, yeah, all right, one last question, would you what
about switching it up where you get to have four husbands.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
To too much work than.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
Were previously heard a lot of work. I'm a monogamous
through and through. I love David and I'm so glad
that I found him, and I have no interest in
marrying anybody, and I love monogamy so much.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Good and then Janelle and obviously not the four that
was kind of a joke, you know, what's your what
does your ten years and ten years like? I don't
want to be married again?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Do you want to?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Are you happy being single? Are you just having a
good time, really.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Really happy being single? I'm not even dating. Christine and
David are always like, you really should sign up for
some of those things. You should really like meet people,
And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know, like
a lot of work, so you know, maybe, but it
will have to happen organically for me. I'm probably not
going to go looking for it.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I know, by the way, that's the best way to go,
you know, I hope.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
So, I don't know. I looked for it. I went
out there, I did the whole app thing.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Oh good for you, David, Like you found David, and
that's great, amazing. It's like, if it happens, it happens,
you know.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So if it's not a priority, then why make it
a priority until.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
It comes a lot of things going on.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, when it becomes a priority, and they're like you
have that burn, like I want someone, I need someone
I love, I want to feel loved. I want to
love someone, Then you'll do it, I think, so I think,
so yeah, yeah, well this has been amazing. Thank you guys, thanks,
thank you. I I really loved having this conversation. It
was really fun for.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yes, thank you. Wow totally uh changed my you know,
my opinion, I guess. I mean I was probably one
of those people who thought, oh, you know, polygamy, plural marriage,
you have this sort of idea of what it is.
(52:28):
I haven't seen the show, so I probably asked a
lot of questions that have been answered a million times
over in the show. But watching them from episode season one,
episode one till now, I mean, I'm sure it's night
and day that journey, you know, from where they were
(52:49):
to where they are now. Not to say where they
were was anything negative. I mean, as we talked about it,
they gained so much experience and built so much character
through what it is that they went through, and now
they are who they are. But I mean, it's pretty
pretty cool. Maybe I'll think about it. You know, I'm
(53:12):
gonna talk to Aaron. I'm gonna talk to Aaron tonight
and see if maybe we can't get into this plural thing.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
The way I'm gonna pitch it is like this, like, Babe,
this has nothing to do with other women, okay, uh
and me this is is more about you and creating
a sisterhood. And you know this is you know it's
gonna be great. We'll see, we'll see how it goes anyway,
all right, I'm leaving by
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, Revelry.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
That's good, Oliver Hudson. Yes, why are you? I'm pretty good.
I'm good. I'm just a little bit sad. Oh, Oliver,
why are you sad?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Because it's a little gloomy out today and there's fires
in Malibu. Oh that's okay, Oliver. You know, life is interesting,
the ups and the and sometimes shit will pass. I know, Oliver.
So let's me talking to myself. It just reminded me
of something I did in therapy. Oh my god, it
(01:12):
was fucking horrible. This is a while back, dealing with
you know, daddy issues, dealing with sort of you know whatever,
not just daddy issues. Whatever my childhood brought on, you
know that then affected my adult life. And know, therapy
(01:32):
is good for everyone, even if you're from the insanely
fucked up to the you know, the so called normal
or not normal. No one's normal. Everyone has their shit.
Therapy is probably good for every human being on this planet,
but trying to sort of break through something. My therapist
made me do this exercise and I was reminded by
(01:57):
it by me my little sort of talked myself that
I just did. I had to play my current self
and then my younger self, my six year old boy,
would then talk to my adult self, and I would
(02:17):
have to have this conversation with myself as Oliver in
the present day and then Oliver as a six year
old boy. Now it gets better. I had to switch
positions in the couch to talk to myself, so I'd
sit on one end. I'd be like, hey, hey, little man,
like how you doing, and then move over to the
other side of the couch and be like hi, like
(02:39):
I'm okay, Like how are you and then move over
and like, yeah, you look sad, little buddy, like what's
going on? And then I'd switch over and I'd be like,
you know, I just don't feel safe and I feel insecure,
and you know, I just I wish I had my
parents around it. And then I'd switch over and like
it's okay. I mean, it was extremely embarrassed, even though
(03:00):
it's just myself and my therapist when he said it
to me, We're gonna do this exercise, I'm like, no, no, man, like,
come on, like, what the fuh? And he made me
do it and it was awful, it was it was
It's still I think that caused me, That experience caused
me to seek out more therapy. Actually, at the end
(03:23):
of the day, you know, it was more try. That
exercise was more traumatizing than you know, my parents splitting up. Anyway,
I digress this other thing, the I digress thing. I
think I use it right, but I never really know
like I digress. It's not I digressed, meaning like I digressed,
(03:49):
but I digress. I'm gonna ramble mode. Well, we have
some fun guests in the waiting room right now, and uh,
very excited to sort of get into the talking about psychology.
When we're talking about sort of religion faith number one,
(04:09):
but then we're talking about sort of the psychology of
what it feels like and why it feels better to
basically be one of in this situation. I think three
wives to one man. They are from the hit show
Sister Wives, and I think we've all probably caught a
(04:32):
glimpse of it. It's just such so fascinating. It just
speaks to just humanity. How we're all different, we all
feel different things, we all love different things, we all,
you know, different things make us happy. And it's the
beauty of who we are. We're not all one and
the same. Let's get into it. I don't know if
there's anything off limits. I don't know. We'll see. I'll
(04:53):
probably put my foot in my mouth, but that's kind
of the fun of listening to this goddamn show. Christine
Brown and Janelle Brown and bring them in. Let's talk
sister wives. Hello, Janelle, how are you?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh good? I'm with Maddie and Caleb in Greenville, so
in North Carolina because we actually have purchased some property
and we are starting a farm next year.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So amazing. I've been at Greenville a bunch of times. Actually,
have you really?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I used to play in this golf tournament at the
BMW golf tournament there, and I played at thorn Blade,
and I stayed in the little town there in Greenville.
I loved it.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Funny, green feels great. It's such a small town. But
you have really anything that you want. It's it's cute,
cute stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And Christine, where are you and.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Lehi, Utah, like it's Salt Lake City. It's like, if
you see the valley of Salt Lake City, we're like
right over the mountain and you should see the insane
view I have from my back porch. Mountains is gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Is that amazing?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
There? You want to do? You can do and then
within an hour from us?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun.
I let's just get into it, you know what I mean? Like,
first of all, why are you guys in separate locations?
This is all you know, a new experience for me.
So are you where? Why are you living in separate places?
You know? Where is everybody?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah? We lived in flag Staff together, okay, And right
after I left Pody, I moved up to Utah. My
kids are up there and I just wanted to be
up there instead. And flag Staff I don't have a
lot of you know, I have good memories with my
kids and flag Staff, but no things. I don't want
to ever stay there ever again. So I moved to
Salt Lake City, Utah, and lived there for a couple,
(06:48):
like for a couple of years in that location until
I met David and then we moved in together in March.
But I'm going to stay in Utah. I love it here.
It feels like home. I finally feel like I'm home now. Yeah,
there's so many years where we spent wandering and traveling
and moving, and I feel like this is home.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Now with Cod with Cody, you spent these years travel
We moved a.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Lot, like I swear it was every few years. Who
was I think, just always trying to help our family,
be like, get get better financially whatever, And so I
feel like we were always just moving or for whatever reasons.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I one time got mad and I'm like, there's thirteen
people in this badly and you only care about one.
And that was a while ago. But yeah, so we're
just moving a lot. And then we moved. We were
in flag Staff for what three years before I left
and then like.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, okay, and then Janelle, what about what about you?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
After coding and my marriage dissolved, I was in flag
Staff for a while, but then I really I was
really kind of looking for a piece of property to
kind of settle in on. I've always wanted that dream, right,
always want a little few acres and a little farm,
or whatever, and so my daughter Madison and her husband
Caleb were also interested in that. So we started looking
(08:08):
all over the country because Caleb has a job that
allows him to go different places. But it turned out
we found our little piece of heaven or whatever here
in North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They're very close to them, so I'm here and that's
where I will plant my roots. So Christine was just
here last weekend. We still have a lot of family
connection and interaction. Our children are all very close. In fact,
there is a group text that Christine and I are
not part of and they share all the news. And
I was like, mom, it was in the text. I'm like,
(08:41):
I'm not in that text.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
But anyway, so thank you so much for not putting
me in that text. Children. And I did tell them,
I'm like, look, if you're going to try and plant
something with Truly in the sibling chat, that's great, but
can you actually have to tell me? So I plan.
They had this whole trip plan to send to Las
Vegas one time to go to a concert, and they
asked her they could take Truly and then that's the
last I heard of it. And then suddenly they're like
(09:03):
Truly is like Mom, we're looking tomorrow, blah blah. I'm like,
wait what and yeah, it was like right then and there,
and we have to make sure she had everything that
she needed. I'm like, you guys have got it informed me,
you know, just some things like that.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So how many kids? How many kids do you guys have?
Do you know? How many kids do you have?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So I have six?
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Okay, yeah, we both have six.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But then also Mariah's child, Leo Leon is there in
the group as well.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Okay, so so the first Mariah is Leon, Like, you don't.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Even refer to the name anymore. Really, Leon, Mary's child,
got it?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
And so that that name is a is a name
we don't associate with them.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Anymore, got it? Got it? Okay, there's so much I'm
trying to like, I'm trying to map it all out right,
I know, you're all good.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So Mary has one child, and that's Leon, and Leon's
on the group chat with mine and Janelle's kids. And
Mary is not on the group chat, not on the
group chat like us. Right, So Mary lives in Parawan.
She had that as far as I know, I don't.
I don't really talk to Marry that much. So she
(10:12):
lives in Parawan as far as I know, in her
airbnb or something like in there anyway, I guess I
don't know exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay, So six kids and six kids, and and they're
essentially are they their cousins siblings?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
They consider themselves siblings.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
We married Cody, like I, So when we married Cody,
I was the third wife. And after I got married,
that's when all the kids came. And so all the
kids really were raised as siblings. So they refer to
themselves as siblings. They don't use the word half there
to them their full siblings.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, I mean that's like essentially like me, I mean
my my my brother Wyatt is my half brother, but
I mean I don't say that he's he's my brother.
I grew up with him. I mean it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So the kids all they grew up together, and that
one goal that we really had when we put our
family together was to have them be true, truly siblings,
to feel like they were all and they all grew
up together, like they're all intermixed age wise, and so
they do. They're very much siblings.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah. Okay, yeah, no, I bet now working backwards just
a little bit, because usually you kind of start at
the beginning, but you know, I'm a pretty fluid, you know,
conversation guy. So dissolving a marriage, like, how does that work?
Is it pretty much standard practices even though there were
(11:35):
three of you, you know? Or is there something that
has to be done differently that we don't know about
or I don't know about.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
We had like spiritual marriage, so I wasn't leave, So
a minus from Janelle as far as our path goes
and stuff. So we both were spiritually and married, so
in our church there was a religious feeling that we had.
So once it was time for me to leave, and
(12:03):
you know, you don't know you have to leave until
you know you have to leave, and then at that
point I was like, okay, I've just got to go.
And so for me, it was a spiritual journey as
far as praying to God and making sure he was
okay with me leaving and that was going to be fine.
It was going and traveling to North Carolina and talking
to Maddie and saying, if I leave your dad, am
(12:26):
I still going to have access to your children? And
she's like, You're always going to be their ownA I'm like, okay,
that's good. So like all the grandkids are ours, mine engines,
they're all ours, and so it was talking to her
and making sure she would be okay with it. And
then I just told all of the adults that I
(12:47):
was going to be lead, that I was leaving Cody.
And then I just decided, like I kicked him out
of my room, my bedroom. I just told I didn't
want him to be in my bed anymore. If you
didn't really want to be in there, I didn't want
him in there, and I only wanted someone in my
bed that loved me, and that was at that time me.
(13:07):
So I kicked him out and at that city I
consider my official divorce, because you can't really have an
official divorce, there's no paper work.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
How does everyone take that situation? Do you have to
confer you know? Or are you on your own and say, no,
this is the way I feel, and I respect the
way that everyone else might feel in their opinions, but
you know, I am, I have free will, and I
don't want to be in this anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
That's pretty much it, I think. I mean, you can decide,
and then it's really up to you to decide. I
think what steps you want to take? So Mary actually
went ahead and did the steps and went to the
church that we were married in and have the official release.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
She actually did the official thing. I really haven't. My
marriage is over. I don't know what I'm going to do.
I'm not really interested in getting married again or even
really dating at this stage. So I'm not even thinking
about like, oh, what do I need to do, because
I'm just like, I am over, I am done. I
love my single life, and you know, if that if
something presents itself in the future, then I'll consider what
(14:24):
I need to do, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
So you know something that was cool, Oliver, When I
told everybody that I was leaving, Janelle called me and
she's like, Okay, you know, we've all known that you've
been struggling with Cody for years and everything like that.
But she came over and she's like, what does that
mean for us? You know, as far as sister always
go with our relationship. She's like, I've raised we've raised
kids together, so what does that mean. I'm like, We're
(14:48):
just going to continue doing what we're doing. We're just
going to continue in the relationships that we have. I'm
close to Janelle. I wasn't close to Mary and Robins.
I wasn't going to stay close to them. But then
Janelle and I went to Disneyland together. We took our
youngest with us. She took Sananna, I took Truly, and
the four of us went and I think on that trip,
for me, I realized, oh, do you know still my
(15:09):
sister wife. She's always going to be my sister even
though we both got married, Tody, we're just going to
sister wives and we're going to be in each other's
lives for the rest of our lives. We have kids,
we've raised together, we have grandkids together, and we're just
going to keep doing things and hanging out. And I
just got home a couple days ago from hanging out
with her, and we're just going to stay in each
other's lives.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It's a good thing. I like David, it's a good thing.
I like you.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I'm really glad.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Nobody likes me too.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
You know, we're going to go on trips together. We're
going to keep going together.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So then going going backwards, going way way way back.
I mean, obviously you guys were born into the religion
that you're in, right, No, No, I was you were
not okay? You are not okay? And what about you, Chris?
What about you? Christine?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Were you? I was? I had two moms. My dad
married my other mom when I was five. I wore
a burgress my mom, but my hair and curlers the
night before, and I remember her wedding day really really well.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay. And then Janelle, you were not born into it.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
No, So I grew up in the mainstream LBS church
because they are separate, okay. And it wasn't I wasn't.
I was probably in my I was probably twenty two
twenty three when I finally really seriously considered the fundamentalist
branch or of the fundamentalist faith.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So and explain that a little bit. You know. I
know that probably a lot of people have seen the
show and followed your guy's story and understand it, I
mean to you know, to be fair, I haven't really,
but it's just it's interesting to me. And in my intro,
you know, I did my own little old song and dance,
but then I just talked about, you know, the human
(16:48):
condition and how we're all different, and how we all
need and want and experience different things, and there are
different things that make us happy, you know, until they don't,
and then you move on to something else. You know, Now,
when you are in a situation, whether it be what
you guys are in or you know, a job or whatever,
where you're feeling like you want out and there's restrictions
(17:11):
there but you can't, that's one thing. But if it's
all of free will, then shit, man, like, do whatever
the hell you want to do. You know what I'm saying.
That's my that's my personal feeling about just life in general.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Obviously, Christine, you grew up in this. This is what
you've learned, it's what you've seen, you know. But just
take me through the fundamentalist sort of ideas of what
this is, of what polygamy is, of what multiple wives are,
of sister wives, of all of it, Like, what is
the sort of you know, gospel behind it.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Sure, so we can both talk about with Janelle's good
at numbers and everything in history remembering all of that,
but basically the beginning of the Mormon Church. Back when
Joseph Smith was the founder of the Mormon Church or
LDS Church, really one of the tenets of faith that
he felt like he was inspired to live was plural
(18:10):
marriage and continue and live plural marriage himself, which is
plural marriages having more than one wife. And then you
know that trickled down through the presidency and through the members,
and it's just if you look in like the scriptural
references as far as living plural marriage goes, it just
talks about it. So you know, it's what you believe
(18:33):
and will get you to the highest degree in the
celestial kingdom, which is you know, heaven, and it helps
to be a better person. It helps like rough off
the round edges. And it's not something I believe in
anymore at all. I don't plan on living it again,
it's not it doesn't fit with me anymore. But I
have siblings who live it and they all thrive and
(18:56):
they're doing really well. Some are doing well, but you know,
just because life is life, and so it's just one
of the tenants of the faith of the Fundamentalist Mormon Church.
ELDS Church does not practice plural marriage at all.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Okay, really truly, I mean it really is simply like
every faith has a way to enlighten it, right, Like
it's it's really you have to get over yourself. A
man has to expand his capacity. A woman has to
learn her own value. I mean, there's it's like it's
a it's a pathway. It's a pathway to progression. So
(19:35):
I mean, that's not the only part of the faith.
There's a lot of other parts of the faith, but
that is one of the that's the biggest tenant that
separates us from the mainstream LDS churches we still practice
or that church. I mean, I'm not really a member anymore,
but that church practices plural marriage.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, and so and Janelle, are you are you out
of it like Christine is?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, I mean I still I still have very much.
I had, still have a very close relationship with God.
I still am very prayerful, and I'm still a very
religious person. But I am not in the faith anymore. No,
I mean I still I still actually hold most of
the LBS beliefs, but I am not in the plural
I'm not in the fundamentalist And.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What does it look like to sort of.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Exit that you just don't go anymore?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You don't go and you're not Do you lose friends,
do you lose family members?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
You know, Being sort of a convert at a later age,
I really didn't know a lot of people. I still
am very close to all of my family that practices
still like I still a lot of Cody's family. Actually,
I'm still very close to you know, so I haven't
really lost anybody, and not really.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
You know, my favorite thing happens. I was at Costco
the other day because that's where you meet up with
everybody's Costco. And there was a whole like a group
met me. So it was a man and he had
two wives with him and then a couple of their kids,
and it was the entire range of emotion, all of it,
you guys, it was crazy. So some of them were
completely like, Christine, there you are. It's been forever and
(21:09):
I missed you and la la lah, and here's a hug,
and you know, picking upright where you left off. And
other people were kind of like one of them was
very uncomfortable and they're like, oh, what do we do
with her? She's left? Now? Does that mean that we
can you know? How is that? Does she hate plaguing me?
She is she not going to like me because she left?
And maybe she's bitter or maybe she's angry about her
she you know, maybe she's left religion in general. And
(21:31):
I don't know where I stand. So everybody it was
like from the and then one was physically uncomfortable, and like, okay,
it was it was lovely. So you get all ranges
of emotion with you know, acceptance, not understanding, absolute like well,
I think we're done that kind of a thing just
because you are leaving. I was leaving something that I
knew all of my life, and I realized it just
(21:53):
wasn't going to fit me anymore. I felt it was
too controlling for me. And I told Cody. One of
the great things that I really appreciate about Cody, like
in the church, who wear garments, like in the in
the LDS, they and I took mine off and I
told Cody I wasn't gonna wear them anymore. And he goes, well,
how is your relationship with God? I said, it's fine.
(22:14):
God doesn't hear if I wear them. I mean, for me,
God doesn't hear that I wear them. He goes, okay,
that's fine then, and with it. He didn't care, he
didn't raise it. He was like, it's your relationship with God,
that's the most important thing. And that's what he always
taught our kids. And I really appreciated that because it
was it is. What you do is you need to
have your own personal relationships, you know, with God, and
(22:35):
you shouldn't have to have an ecclesiastical authority. And so
I really appreciated that. But leveing takes a while too.
It's not like suddenly you're done. It was like a
trickling away, and it was like gone away in pieces.
There were certain things I just didn't believe anymore. I
couldn't make them fit into my paradigm of understanding the world.
We met after we met public, Oh my gosh, we
(22:57):
met the most amazing people and so many different walks
of life and faith. And I'm like, these people are
amazing and their relationship with God is just as strong
as mine.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, but when did you but when did you start
to realize that? You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Like you went, Yeah, when I started questioning like myself?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because you know, when you're even when
you're eighteen nineteen years old, I mean that's when sort
of your brain is moving, You're you're you're sort of
stepping outside of what you've been what is learned, you know,
and you start to sort of establish your own sort
of thoughts and feelings and ideas. You know, our brain
I don't think is fully developed until we're in our
mid twenties, you know, from just a biological standpoint.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You know, it's so interesting because I actually chose the faith. Yeah,
for me, it was a very it was a very
logical choice for me, and I never really felt like
plural manager was very controlling. I actually felt very independent.
I felt like I had a lot of freedom. And
I think it really is about what you make of it, right,
whether you choose to embrace who you are and be
(24:01):
strong and who you are and be independent and live
a life, or if you sit around kind of comparing
or pining or whatever you know, for you know, I
don't know, Like I just felt like it was very independent.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Were you in the church though, Janelle? Like before you
found at twenty two? Like where were you like from
zero to twenty two?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So I was in the LDS Church. But that is
my family practically disowned me when I joined the Fundamentalist
faith because you know, that was not done, that was
definitely not done, and so they were very upset with me.
So isn't really something that's embraced in the LDS church
the mainstream LDAs Church. So I mean, for me, it
(24:41):
was a choice. I felt very called to live the
life and I found a lot of independence and freedom.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
What drew you to to the fundamental side of things.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I've always been someone who very much sought to do
what God what would bring me closer to God, and
I really felt like that was what this was. Was
just it was a devotion. It was a devotional thing
for me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Now that you have sort of moved beyond that side
of fits not to say that you don't have maybe
even a stronger relationship with God, like when you reflect
back on the reasons you did join. Yeah, now you're
an older woman who can reflect. How do you speak
to that younger person? Do you know?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I'm actually really really grateful, And this is one thing
Christine and I've really talked about, is we're so grateful
for experience. I personally am very grateful for the growth
that I experienced, beginning to be very confident in who
I was, knowing who I was, knowing my own strengths,
and not feeling like I had to always measure up
against somebody else. But then we also had this tremendous
family experience that I never would have had without a
(25:59):
big family, So I'm really grateful for that, really truly.
And Christina and I both said, you know, we wouldn't
go back and change anything because all we have now
is really great.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh of course. I mean I think, you know, just
forget forgetting about forget about religion or anything. Really. I mean,
I've been asked that question too, just interviews. I'm very
open about my my life and the things that I've
gone through and the anxieties that I've had. And you know,
there's been infidelity in my relationships that has been you know,
(26:31):
dealt with through just internal just just sort of self expression,
self realization. I wouldn't change a thing. Actually I got
dinged and not Dan, but it was picked up in
the newspapers like Oliver Hudson wouldn't change a thing, and
da da da da, And I'm like, well, of course not,
because I'm happy with who I am now. I am
(26:52):
happy with sort of my philosophies on life and the
things that I have gone through, the character building experiences,
the pain having to sort of navigate all of that.
I don't know who I'd be without it, So why
would I change it? You know?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I think we're the some of our were some of
our parts. Right. I feel like you always like you
become richer, a richer person as you go through life experiences,
and some of them are not so great. Right now,
I'm not so righty, but just make it you are.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I mean now if I was, if I was
a completely screwed up individual and on drugs and in
a gutter somewhere, then maybe I would want to change something,
you know what I'm saying. But yeah, right right, you know,
but I fought, I was, I always fight. I'm always fighting.
You always fighting. You know who you are and your
own psychology and educating yourself and there it's it's it's
(27:45):
a forever process, you know what I'm saying. Which is
the beauty.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I think it's a constant progression. There was one time
that I have to tell you when I was leaving
and I was just so still frustrated, and so I
remember just saying I don't think I even like clicking
me more above a toganelle. And she's like, wait a minute,
a minut. She's like, come on, you live in plural
marriage is the reason why you can do so many
things you can do. She's like, I'll never forget how
you just did the whole irrigation system by yourself in Wyoming.
(28:10):
You know how you you know, did all of these things.
You did things all the time. You could just pick
up and leave and you could go. And the independence
that you learn and that you found is something that's
who you are. And it's like I decided at that
point to same as you're saying, like you realize that
this is all a path and this is all a journey.
And there's some memories that I make sure they stay special,
(28:32):
they stay good days, and I never let anything like
negative or anything like that just creeped in. You just
have a lot of actually have so many good, wonderful
memories with our family and where it's brought us, and
with our kids being as tight as they are. I mean,
it's it's absolutely awful.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
But actually none of our children have embraced the faith.
I mean, they are all doing their own things.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
That was going to be a later question, but now
that you're bringing into it, like how about all the kids?
Like where are they at with all this?
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Really we did raise them to really disperse and foremost
have a good relationship with God, and I think they
all have sort of found their path. Some are not
even really big believers of God, and that's okay. We're
all still we all have this foundational family and it
doesn't really matter what everybody thinks or believes. You know,
everybody here is very different. They're all the whole spectrum.
(29:20):
I love it, and I love it because we still
get all together and we still have so much fun
and we just we celebrate the things that are in common,
which are lots of thing.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Well, it seems like our biggest goal it was about
getting a development with God. But then it was also
become a productive person, productive to this and make sure
you have a sense of purpose and you have a direction.
And so it was all about too, like, have a
sense of purpose, have someplace that you're always moving towards.
You're always better in yourself, always looking at people like
with a way to understand them, you know. Lovely having
(29:53):
for it, like so many different parents, I think really
helped our kids to kind of fine tune because you
have all those special conversations with each of the kids,
so they learn from all of us and all of
our parentings do has I mean, I learned things from
my other mom that were totally invaluable and I'm so
grateful that she's always been in my life.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Your Here's what's interesting, though, you know, going down that
path a little bit, is that, yeah, I have three kids,
you know, I have one wife. Obviously, you know you
have to be on the same page. There's a fundamental
belief on how you want to raise your kids, but
how you get to that place sometimes can be different,
very and it's just in relationships and single relationships in general.
(30:34):
It's that don't you undermine me? Or or you know,
like I told him no and now you're telling him yes.
I mean, there's so many there are so there are
so many sort of disconnects and parenting. I mean, imagine
when you have a thousand parents, like how do you
how do you? How do you deal with that? Where
it's like wait a minute, this is I do it
(30:54):
this way, and you might do it this way, but
then he does it this way, but then she does
it that way. I mean, it could be a web
of insanity.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Well, I think that we always sort of respected everybody.
Everybody had their biological children, right, and so they kind
of had a culture in their families. But then there
was some a big general culture that we sort of
just had to mesh our cultures, Christmas traditions, holiday traditions,
the way that like do kids get to like I
(31:23):
remember one of the very early on could the kids
play in the cupboards? Addishes in the kitchen?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah, we're messes? Okay, what kinds of messes? And how
do you fold? And do you care if they even
fold anything?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (31:36):
But you know what the kids learn too is how
to navigate parents. You know, how your.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Kids to go to if they had a question they
want to ask a yes, they know who.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
To go to, learn pretty quickly who to get yeses from,
and like.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
If they want to go do the crazy Black Friday shopping,
do not sign me up Christine's She's in the car
waiting for them at one am.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Or to keep us warm?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, no, no. I mean, you know, my sister has
three kids and I have three kids, and you know,
all cousins are like best friends. But but she does
it totally differently than I do. She looks at the
way that I raise my kids and she's like, Jesus man,
you are too lenient. You let them watch like horror
movies at the age of three. I mean, you know,
(32:24):
I curse in front of my kids. You know, I'll
drink in front of my kids. I used to smoke cigarettes, smoke.
I'm going to be me in front of my children.
I'm not gonna hide anything. Now. Can you do it?
Can you say bad words? Am I an example to
you right now?
Speaker 4 (32:39):
No?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Of course not. I'm not your role model yet. This
is who I am. I'm an adult. When you become
an adult or when you get to be older, then
you can make these choices. But I'm not gonna sneak around.
I mean, I think that's almost worse than them knowing
out front. They're gonna find it, they're gonna see, they're
gonna see the booze, they're gonna see the cigarettes. And
for me to go outsideigrette like coming like hey and
(33:02):
stink of cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Well, it's the level of teaching them respect.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Right, there's a respect where my sister's like, what, you're crazy?
I would that, So it's just different, you know, we'd
just do it differently.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I was definitely more pious like before.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Oh some yeah, my kids have some funny stories.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Christine was very black and white, very black woman.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
I believe that you should raise kids black and white.
So for me, it was like hard at PG thirteen
was when you're thirteen.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And my kids benefited.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
They really did benefit from you know, and who knows
some kids, I'm sure look back and they're super bitter.
But I have to tell you why. I watched The
Conjuring with truly just a couple of days ago, and
it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It all one of the best horror amazing. It is
one of my favorites horror buff our family. I've seen
every horror movie. Who Conjuring is my one of my
no I.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Saw it in the airplane, mind you with the screen
distake on the back of it.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
That might be less scary so much that scary scar.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, that was amazing. So I've come a long way
because horror was certainly not allowed in my home and everything.
So it's it's you changed to it's important to teach
your kids too. Is that change is okay?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
To see the differences in personality and stuff in the
spectrum of adults. I think actually gave our kids a
pretty good tool. They gave it, gave them a tool
some tools going into real life, because you're going to
meet all these different personalities like I've had my kids
have come home and had bosses that were very rigid
and strict, and like they had and Mary is very
(34:35):
much like she's very she's very rigid, she's very strict,
and so they had dealt with that and they're like, oh, okay,
I know how.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
To do this.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. I love what you guys said,
where it's like, look, we're going to, you know, show
them a path that I was on, that we believe in,
not was are now currently with your relationship with God
and if you choose to, you know, follow it. Great.
If you don't belie even God, I love you. I mean,
(35:05):
you do whatever you want to do. I mean, that's
it's a beautiful way to sort of do it. Because
I have a lot of friends, well not a lot,
but a lot two or three friends who were raised
in a extremely God fearing place and it's screwed them up.
At the end of the day, they've come out of it,
(35:26):
but they had to go through a lot because they were,
you know, essentially disowned sometimes if they didn't believe what
your parents believed. You know, that's hard.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
That's sad to me. I like that our kids are
so individual. They all chosen different things, and oh my gosh,
I've learned so many things from them. Then. It's just
amazing that all the things that they've learned about life
and the different people they've met, and the walks of
faith that they have, and you know, I really feel
blessed that we were able to set up our family
like we did. That kind of just kind of fell
into place. But we did have discussions about it back
(35:58):
in Wyoming where we did side, you know, do we
want our kids to live plural marriage? It was like, no,
I think that we just want them to have a
good relationship with God. And that was at the very
very beginning of all even though we talked them I
don't know, trying to teach them my example, I guess,
and things like that definitely definitely changed. So just grateful
that they're just good people. They treat people with kindness.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Are any of them wanting to follow in that sort
of plural marriage past? No?
Speaker 4 (36:24):
No, no, no, that's death. First.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Do you think social media and sort of the connectivity
of the world through technology now has changed a little
bit of that.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
I don't think it's technology. I don't think it's technology.
I think it's that we weren't in the faith anymore.
We lived in Vegas, and for all of those years,
instead of our kids hanging out with other Plaguma's children,
they hang out with kids that were everybody else the
whole open world. So I think because we exposed them
and ourselves to more people that lived outside of, you know, whatever,
(36:58):
the fundamentalist faith, that that's the reason why that happened too.
I think we just showed them a whole broader world.
So for them, they just got to see a broad
a picture. But then also we do believe that there
should be a calling that you do feel to live
in any religion, to be a part of any religion,
and none of them have the calling to even be
a member of the church we were previously.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
One thing, I am glad we do have a very
much or more open world, right we do now, and
we've definitely had a much bigger life. I feel like
our children have for sure.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
One reason that we originally went public was to sort
of expand people's ideas of what plural marriage was, you
know what I mean, like were it was the train
wrecks making the news, right, and we were looking at
ourselves and we're like, Wow, this isn't really us anymore
about it. I mean, like, this isn't really us, And
so we really did. It was very scary for us
to go public because everybody was very afraid, our community
(37:54):
was very afraid that we would somehow out them and
they would we would bring the law down on them
or whatever. But I am really great that we've had
that experience and we've been able to share with people.
And granted it's it's sort of a train wreck now,
but hey, that's normal family life, right, that's normal family life.
Like you said, yourself, relationships evolve and change, and we're
(38:14):
doing it obviously now in a very public forum, and
we're seeing all the nitty gritty and the mean things
that you say to each other when a relationship is
hinting or whatever. It's, oh my gosh, Like, we're real people, right,
And I think that's what we set out to show,
was that we're just real people who've made a choice
to live a little bit differently and it isn't always
about control, and it isn't always about having to wear
(38:36):
a certain dress or having to you know. We really
wanted to show that we were real people and even
as rough as it is, we are now still showing.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
That getting to that point. You know, you guys are
strong female, strong women, you know what I mean? Like
(39:05):
I don't quite and you can explain sort of understand
the role of the female in that fundamentalist world. But
you know, would you can first of all, would you
consider yourself feminists? Not in the extreme sense of the word.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Ye? Okay, so definitely I believe, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Okay, So take take that part of it. Are you
are you newfound feminists or do you think you've been
a feminist from the beginning? And then if you have, like,
how do you square sort of the female role in
that fundamental world with sort of how you kind of
feel on the inside and how you maybe have acquiesced
to parts of it that were against your morality as
(39:48):
a female.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So I've always considered myself a feminist, which meaning that
women could do anything, any job or anything, have any
opportunity that a man could have. And I also sort
of felt like I could be very independent, and so
a plural marriage allowed me to function within a marriage
and have a family and still be very independent. For me,
that was the ideal merge of the two worlds. A
(40:11):
feminist world as well as I really did want to
have a family and I really did want to have
that partnership with a spouse. And so for me, I
feel like I've just even continued to grow in my independence.
I have an independence that I didn't even comprehend I
could have when I was twenty two, twenty three, and
in tandem with having a family. So to me, I
(40:32):
feel like I've had it all. I've had the best
of both worlds. I've had career, I've raised family, I
have a beautiful family, and I have a lot of
professional opportunity, and I sort of feel like I've got
it all, Like I've got everything now, do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Mm hm. Were you ever like in the moment thinking well,
this is bullshit, I don't want to wear this, so
this is you know, I mean, internally resisting.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
We didn't ever have anything that we had to wear.
We wore regular clothes, you know what I mean. So
that was one of the reasons we went public, was
to show that, you know, hey, I don't have to
wear the dress. I don't have to wear the hair.
That's not part of it. That's some sort of weird
dogma that has crept in to some of the sex,
you know what I mean, And so that was we
(41:18):
were really out to show that we were just regular people.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
I was definitely the same thing a feminists from the
very beginning. I mean, even watching my grandma's and how
strong and independent they were and they could do everything
and anything. And I got to watch my moms be
so strong and they could do everything and anything I
wanted to do. And then I got married and really
whatever I wanted to do, I just learned how to do.
Accepting you to be fixed, I fixed it. If that
(41:41):
need to be done, I did it. And you just
learn how to be strong and independent and stand up
for yourself and five for yourself. And I mean I
always would tell my kids, like definition of gentlemen, definition
of a lady, they're both the exact same thing. They're
just making sure that everybody in the room is comfortable.
So as far as feminism goes, I think it's my
(42:02):
job to make sure that everyone is accepted and everyone
is accepted at their level where there. I think that's
what true feminism is is realizing we all have a
power within us that needs to be heard and needs
to be valued, and maybe not understood, but it still
needs to be heard.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And you never felt that that power was, you know,
sort of being suffocated in any way in my experience,
not for you.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Some days for me, I was like, you know, I
don't know if I'm necessarily being treated to me. It
was a thing of equality, and so I felt like
I wasn't being treated as an equal, it wasn't being
treated as a wife. I felt that for the last
several years of being married to Codd, I didn't feel
like so I felt in our family sometimes I was
(42:49):
a second class wife, and that was very frustrating to me,
very frustrating.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
That's interesting, you know, because then there then you know,
it all sounds great, and then and there that comparison
starts to happen when you have sort of you know,
multiple wives or people in those relationships, like you're getting
more attention than you and well, I.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Felt like Cody was comparing. I feel like the comparing
starting with Cody.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
No, that's what I mean, That's what I mean.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I couldn't either. There's no way I'm going to be
a wife like Robin. I don't sign me up. I'm
not going to do what you want me to do.
All the time or whatever she did. I don't know exactly. Yeah,
I'm going to be me, you know, and so that
I mean, I just feel like there was a lot
of comparing that happened, and there was a pedestal that
was I'm not going to do that. I'm not going
to do that. So I'm not going to conform my
(43:35):
life to what you want me to be. I'm going
to conform my life to what I want me to be.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Well, I also think, you know, human nature is is
when you have a group of people in general, like
you're going to gravitate towards one more than the other.
I'm not talking about just in your situation, but just
in a group of people, Like there's a connection, there's
a chemistry that happens when you have multiple wives. I'm
sure that that's just a natural thing where you are
gravitating more towards.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
At all of our not a plural life, I know,
But isn't that.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
But isn't But isn't that human sort of like just
feeling really truly?
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So a woman comes in and she her her role
is to kind of learn her value and learn how
to be independent all that he actually is failing if
he is allowing one relationship to be more significant. That
is the man's challenge in living plural marriage. They have
to expand their capacity emotionally. Look, most guys don't really
want to sign me up. Don't sign me up. They
(44:28):
all think like the great, the sex is all great,
Like I get, you know, but but like there's an
emotional component that comes along when you're when you're having
multiple families, you have to meet the needs of your
wives and your children. So he was failing when he
when he was failing the standard. God when that started
to happen so interesting, So that was his that was
(44:49):
a failure on his partner.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Right, right, And how does that you know? Are with
you guys? But just in general, I mean, you know,
as far as intimacy goes, or just even connectivity go,
I mean, is there is there jealousy that happens, you know,
within the groups?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
I didn't feel jealous too much. I didn't really feel
jealous before Robin. Before Cody married Robin, I feel like
what they had was a true soulmate relationship. And I
really felt like he started to focus so much on
Robin and her kids. So for me, I didn't get
jealous until then, and then suddenly when your needs are
being met, and like when his capacity wasn't growing anymore
(45:26):
to you know, be there for all of us. I
feel like that's when jealousy really started to creep in.
Got it and for me, and before that didn't matter. Before,
I'm like, everyone's needs are being mad.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
I think you're fine, and even the intimate part of it,
it's not doesn't matter, Like it's just part of the
part of the deal. There's no jealousy when it comes
to that stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Well, you're not comparing notes and you're definitely not. Everybody's
talking about it. Very sad, no, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
But like with my wife when I first met her,
most men don't want to know anything. I'm different. I'm like,
I want to know every dude you've been with, every
detail because I don't want to run into this guy,
you know. But I'm sort of like a jealous ish person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
No, we respect the sanctity of that marriage boundaries, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Okay, Well that's great. I mean, but you know, you
gotta there's gotta be chat behind the camera's cutting.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
No. Never, I've never, no, because I just I didn't
feel like that was my business, and I didn't feel
like it would be helpful to know, so I didn't
really care.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
The guy was more separate marriages, and we kept them
separate as far as the we mind bitch about something
Cody did, Like hell, he went out and bought that car,
uge the luggage.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
There were definitely things that were yeah, well this has
been amazing, Like I could talk to you guys forever.
It's just so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
We've appreciated it.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
No, I really it's amazing, and I love, you know,
to sort of see how strong you guys are, and
you know how independent you are, and and sort of
turning the you know, just the the idea of what
this is on its head, you know, to watch and
to see how these experiences have made you who you
are and have created these strong ass women who are
(47:18):
living their lives the way that they want to live
it right now.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
That's what they want. My motto to be a strong
ass woman who's living her life.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
No, it's true. I mean, it's so it's so it's
so great. I mean, it's it's just awesome to have
this chat, you know. And then so the show is
out right, the season is airing right now. It's airing right.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Now every Sunday Sunday night on TLC.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Okay, and and you want to for okay real quick
and then we'll go. But like, I didn't get into this.
How did this even happen? How did the TV show
even come about?
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Yes? So I was in a group of people that
were in charge of spreading, spreading, puguing me awareness basically,
and someone reached out to me through that group and
then I'm like, then they hooked Hi up with Cody
and was He ended up being our producer for years
and years and years. But we all sat down and
we talked and he's like, I want to do a
(48:11):
documentary on your family, and we're like, that won't work.
If you do a documentary and you open up our family,
we're going to all lose our jobs, our kids are
going to be bullied in school. We can't do that.
It was a felony back then. So we're like, we'd
have to have it be a series, and so he
and he became a producer and one of our very
good friends for years. So he took it and he
(48:32):
found TLC and they partnered with us, and it's that
first time when we were sitting there in this room
with all these TLC executives and executives, and like the
like reality television, they showed our pilot and there we
are just these this small family who were so scared
of the whole outside world, and they showed our family.
(48:53):
They're on a big screen with all of these strangers,
and at the end everyone went totally. It was so silence,
and then they started clapping and we're like, it was hard.
It was super scary to go public. It was hard.
All outside the world is a scary thing. But I
feel like what's come from it the understanding that people
(49:14):
have now towards plural marriage, but then also realizing that
we're just like them and everybody. It seems like every
woman that I meet associates with one of us and
identifies with one of.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Us well, because I think when you hear when you
hear plural marriage, when you hear polygamy, it's it's immediately
the connotation is a dude with a bunch of women
and he's having his way and he's he's you know,
lording over them, and that that's the just the idea,
when without even understanding the reality and the truth of it,
you know, so there's a nice expose that you guys
(49:48):
were able to do. Say no, no, no, no, no no.
It's not just about that, no, no, no, right, but.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
We also just if I can really quickly get through
our efforts, and especially we have some very dear friends
who worked very hard to hand it him. With the
legislature in Utah, plaguing me was decriminalized. So everybody he is,
not nearly is afraid. They can come out of the shadows.
They can live openly. And that is really huge as
far as some of the things you know that the
(50:14):
community was stumbling with.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
That's great. I mean why why why make that a
federal Why make that a felony?
Speaker 4 (50:22):
I mean, lovely that it is criminalize?
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, yeah, all right, one last question, would you what
about switching it up where you get to have four husbands.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
To too much work than.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
Were previously heard a lot of work. I'm a monogamous
through and through. I love David and I'm so glad
that I found him, and I have no interest in
marrying anybody, and I love monogamy so much.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Good and then Janelle and obviously not the four that
was kind of a joke, you know, what's your what
does your ten years and ten years like? I don't
want to be married again?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Do you want to?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Are you happy being single? Are you just having a
good time, really.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Really happy being single? I'm not even dating. Christine and
David are always like, you really should sign up for
some of those things. You should really like meet people,
And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know, like
a lot of work, so you know, maybe, but it
will have to happen organically for me. I'm probably not
going to go looking for it.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I know, by the way, that's the best way to go,
you know, I hope.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
So, I don't know. I looked for it. I went
out there, I did the whole app thing.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Oh good for you, David, Like you found David, and
that's great, amazing. It's like, if it happens, it happens,
you know.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So if it's not a priority, then why make it
a priority until.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
It comes a lot of things going on.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, when it becomes a priority, and they're like you
have that burn, like I want someone, I need someone
I love, I want to feel loved. I want to
love someone, Then you'll do it, I think, so I think,
so yeah, yeah, well this has been amazing. Thank you guys, thanks,
thank you. I I really loved having this conversation. It
was really fun for.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yes, thank you. Wow totally uh changed my you know,
my opinion, I guess. I mean I was probably one
of those people who thought, oh, you know, polygamy, plural marriage,
you have this sort of idea of what it is.
(52:28):
I haven't seen the show, so I probably asked a
lot of questions that have been answered a million times
over in the show. But watching them from episode season one,
episode one till now, I mean, I'm sure it's night
and day that journey, you know, from where they were
(52:49):
to where they are now. Not to say where they
were was anything negative. I mean, as we talked about it,
they gained so much experience and built so much character
through what it is that they went through, and now
they are who they are. But I mean, it's pretty
pretty cool. Maybe I'll think about it. You know, I'm
(53:12):
gonna talk to Aaron. I'm gonna talk to Aaron tonight
and see if maybe we can't get into this plural thing.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
The way I'm gonna pitch it is like this, like, Babe,
this has nothing to do with other women, okay, uh
and me this is is more about you and creating
a sisterhood. And you know this is you know it's
gonna be great. We'll see, we'll see how it goes anyway,
all right, I'm leaving by
Hosts And Creators
Oliver Hudson
Kate Hudson
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