February 27, 2025 • 27 mins
Jamie continues her conversation with Liam Kyle Sullivan, AKA Kelly of "Shoes" fame, Mrs. Cunningham of "Muffins" fame, and an actor and comedian workshopping a show about what it all means. Bonus: Jamie's cousin Chloe stops by to explain why kids from New England had no idea Mrs. Cunningham was "doing an accent."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, sixteen minute listeners, Last call for tickets.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
The Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is doing our post Oscars Spectacular show in person in
Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter and on a live stream
with tickets this Sunday, March second. It's going to be
a blast. We're going to be celebrating the show. We
will have guest spots from three of our favorite guests,
Danielle Perez, Akila Hughes and Grace Freud live and in person.
(00:32):
And if you have live stream tickets and you cannot
watch at that exact moment, no worries, feel free to
get a ticket anyways, you will be able to watch
the show for the next week. Okay, episode time Shoes,
My got do you remember?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I don't remember exactly when we first saw.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I feel like I remember being at your house, like
in the computer room or whatever.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, we either had
our computer room or it was probably right before the
computers made their way to our bedrooms, which sounds horrifying.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So this is my cousin Chloe, and we used to do,
amongst other things, watch Liam Kyle Sullivan's shoes on YouTube
every single day after school.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
You would have been last year of middle school, junior
high and I would have been a freshman or incoming
freshman into high school. And that's when when everything changed, when.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Relly, did you know that Kelly or I guess Liam
is from New England?
Speaker 4 (01:35):
No, yeah, that makes even better Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Oh okay, I didn't know if we were talking about
like New York, Connecticut, Massa, Chusetts, like the whole of
New Englander.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Okay, it was good people.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Kid, Do you remember muffins?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Muffins is everything? I have true word. The dog was
just roaming the huves.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I have true word association with banana, shides of glass,
by anything.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Fire.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I know in retrospect, I'm like, oh, he was obviously
from Boston because all of his characters have like but
that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
But what I think is so amazing is I did
not pick up on that at all. Right as a
thirteen fourteen year old, I'm like, this is how every
mother or person from here talk, So why wouldn't they talk?
Speaker 5 (02:21):
Great?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Mom, says Fire.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Especially what do you want, little Johnny? I'm like, yeah,
that's how we talk here exactly. That's why. How long
ago was that?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Which is gross?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I don't want to age twenty years.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I mean thank you. I love you.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
I love you.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Liam Kyle Sullivan aka Kelly. Your sixteenth Minute continues now.
(03:37):
Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we talk
to the Internet's main characters and speak about how their
moment affected them and how it changed the Internet and us.
And today we are continuing my talk with Liam Kyle
Sullivan aka Kelly of Shoes Fame. I have been so
(03:57):
happy to hear how much people are enjoying the first
part of this episode, So no commentary for me at
the top.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
We're just gonna jump back into it.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
We return to my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan at
the Lyric hyperiend a lot of just like internet stuff
is just very commonly understood now because it's just been
around for so long and almost in a kind of
like dystopian way sometimes, But like who in your life
could possibly relate with what you were going through? Like
there were so few people who had gone through anything
(04:28):
like it.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
There were a handful of us, right. I met Taizon
Day who did Chocolate Rain. Yes, yeah, wonderful human being.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
He seems like a sweetheart.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Very smart, and I got to meet him because Weezer
did a music video, but this was three years later,
so it's like two thousand and eight or nine. Yeah,
I think it was nine that I got to meet
him and we talked and oh wow, and Judson Lapley
(04:58):
who did the Evolution of Dance. Oh yes, I got
to meet him as well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
He's a very smart, lovely person too. And yeah, we've
talked over the years, actually, Judson and I about really
nice our experience because I still kind of have to
explain a little bit, like it was a unique way
to get famous right time. It's still kind of unique.
(05:26):
I mean, I guess it's not unique in that it's
been going on for twenty years, but it's the kind
of thing where it can happen like that, it can
happen in a moment that you don't even expect. I
feel lucky or fortunate that I was going for laughs.
You know, I was trying to make be a performer
(05:46):
and be out there, and some people that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You know, you have this like internet clout that is clear,
but also people don't fully understand.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So when you're translating that to you're already in.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Entertainment, you're a working actor at this point, how do
you bring that to your like reps and too meetings.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
I remember one meeting I had where yeah, it was
clear that guy didn't get why it was funny or
why people liked it. I don't know if that's like
a thing where well, we're trying to market to this
audience and you're finding this audience and we don't match up.
Our audience doesn't match up with yours, so we're not interested.
(06:27):
I think maybe that's what it might have been. One
of the things I gave up or just like stop
doing in my brain was trying to think or imagine
I'd go in circles in my head, why didn't that work?
Why didn't you know? Maybe it was because I was
bringing in some anxiety like I was before, Like I
(06:52):
might have had some desperation on me because I knew,
like this is a shot, this is you know, you
only got one shot. Do not miss your chance, blow.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Like that whole thing full a mile full a mile.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Yeah, maybe I had don't fuck this up too far
forward in my head, you know, I try to think,
what was my part in this? You know, why didn't
it cross over into mainstream success or not even mainstream
just like more traditional success. And I guess I've just
stopped thinking about that and it's made.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Me much happier.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Really, really, going into the Liam Sullivan Internet archive experience,
you were like ahead of the curve and people didn't
know what to do, like they didn't know how or
if there was still a sense or I guess I'm
curious if you felt the same way.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Stuff that was very special to you on the Internet
still felt like separate or like cool.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Or underground, even though every single person you knew had
seen it. It still felt like, well, but people don't
know about this, but we did.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, it's funny. I meet people now who haven't seen it.
I once did a show where there were a lot
of straight people, straight men who didn't know who I like,
had never seen and but we're appreciative, we're assholes. Yeah,
they were just like, wow, I never saw that. That
was really good. I don't know how I missed it.
(08:16):
And I was like, well, you know. Another thing was
that a couple years in, when I was making more
and more videos, it really did become harder and harder
to just do what I wanted because I suddenly I
was the studio exec I could see the numbers, right,
I could go under the hood and YouTube and say
(08:36):
people checked out at your video at you know, three
twenty three, or you know, this video did really well.
Make more videos like this.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, I know that some people are very like
invigorated by that, but I find it very stressful and
I'm like creatively limiting.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
Okay, yeah, and it's good to have limits as a
creative person sort sometimes because well most times, with the
mother of invention, you know that. But in this sense,
it was brand new. It's not like when you get
in front of a crowd and you don't get last,
You're like, okay, that didn't work. Let's go back figure
it out. You go up again, and it does get last,
(09:12):
You're like, Okay, I worked it out, it's working. Whereas
I was now at a place where I kind of
had to just put it out there and if it
wasn't working, well, you're sol.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And then be a data scientist on the back half
and like, which is like.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
I needed someone else to be doing that, But I
also didn't want somebody telling me you should make more
videos like this one. Right, I was like, well, what
about you know where I'm at now? As a creative
that kind of went away, you know, I started trying
to satisfy the numbers instead of making stuff that made
me laugh.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, at what point did it stop being fun? When
did it start to feel a good job.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
I think I always had fun, but I did get
to a point where I knew I had to do
Kelly if I wanted to make a living. This was
all I was doing. And there were no contracts coming in.
There was no like, oh, you're going to be on
this show, you know, paying Like that wasn't happening, and
so yeah, it was stressful. I tried to have fun,
(10:15):
but at a certain point I just said, you know what,
I think I have to stop. Gosh, I haven't really
thought about this in a long time, so it's hard
to articulate. It wasn't so much that I didn't like
the character Kelly. It was like I felt like I
was under her shadow. I never made anything as good
as shoes or muffins, and so I felt like I'm
(10:35):
just kind of I'm just kind of I don't know
what the word is, like circling. I feel like I'm
hovering in this zone of creativity, but I'm not growing. Yeah,
that's how it felt. It felt like a trap. It
felt like, oh geez, I can't do anything else. And plus,
you know, I was kind of catapulted into a different
(10:57):
way of making things right. You know, I had to
make things kind of like shoes took months to make.
I mean I shot on the weekends, I shot at night.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
A lot of locations. There's a lot going on.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
I location scouted, I did all that stuff. Yeah, I
was like, can you can you? I had three different
cinematographers helping me. No way, yes, because people weren't available.
Like I was like, are you available on around Saturday
at two o'clock. Now I'm doing this other thing. Okay.
It was a lot. Yeah, And so I remember having
(11:31):
one meeting with someone who said, yeah, we could do
a new video every month, and I was like, I
don't know if I can do that. Yeah. So it
was yeah, I don't know if you want to call
it burned out or taking a break for mental health
or just just like realizing, oh, I can't really make
money at this the way people are making money at
this now. Like that was like six years later, totally
(11:53):
a twother six years later, where it had changed a
lot and people were churning out stuff, real cheap stuff too,
like just talking to camera, and I was like, I
don't want to do that. I want to do a
character in the story and all the stuff right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Truly, Like you can count on one hand people who
had experienced anything like that when you were having to
process it.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, how did you process stuff like that? That's like
a lot of pressure to be under with like literally
no one to talk to about it that would understand.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I mean, Jesus, I don't know how I pressed well.
It took years of therapy later, but the therapy helped
me mostly with the feelings of anxiety that I would have,
because you have anxiety in life no matter what. And
I felt like I needed help to deal with it,
(12:44):
you know, I needed tools strategies to say, Okay, I
feel myself getting all, you know, worked up, you know,
whether it's meditation or breathing or you know, just something.
I need something right. And I got a lot of
help with that in therapy. We did cognitive behavioral CBD.
(13:08):
I was lucky, you know, I found a good therapist.
What really catapulted me into therapy was my mother died
and that hit me so hard because she was such
an inspiration to me. And she died when I was
thirty six and I was just married. You know it.
It really, it really messed me up for a while.
But it was right around the same time, like five
(13:30):
years after going viral where that happened, and so it
was kind of a I was in a bad place.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Was all of your family still in New England? Y? Yeah,
and being so far away that's really hard.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Yeah, my mom, Oh my gosh. So I wanted People's
Choice Award for you.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I saw the acceptance video.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
And so the reason there's an acceptance video of just
me on the couch is because that year there was
a writer strike and so did not have a regular
ceremony with the red carpet and the step and repeat
and all that. So I didn't get to go. But
my mother watched the East Coast feed, you know, the
(14:12):
live airing, and she called me three hours before it
came on out here and said, Liam, you won, you won?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You want Oh it.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Was so great.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's so sweet. Yeah, Oh that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I know.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
We'll be right back with more.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Liam Kyle Sullivan, Welcome back to sixteenth minute. Ariana Grande
is not going to win an oscar this weekend. But
(14:47):
I know how I feel. And here is the final
piece of my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan. Well, I
mean I want to talk a little bit about I mean,
I just want to talk about New England all the time,
either like from your family or your actual family into
your work at different times.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They're all over it. I mean, yeah, the Muffin Lady
is a hyper exaggerated version of my mother.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
She used to make gourmet she studied to be a
gourmet chef and she used to make these wonderful dishes
for me and my sister. But we were kids, so
gourmet food is like trash to us. But she put
it down in front of and say you'll eat it.
You'll eat it and like it. And that was that
stuck in my head and I put that in the
Muffins video Kelly's mother Grandma. That's based on two of
(15:36):
my grandmother's kind of mashed up together and the dynamic
you know in the shoes video.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I know, or I think I know, Maybe I'm wrong.
You worked with your now wife on Kelly videos. Right, Yeah,
how did you did you meet through doing that? Or
how did you meet?
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Oh? We met. It was great. It was so great.
Was doing a show at the Henry Fonda Theater in
October of two thousand and six. It was a Halloween show,
so everyone was dressed up in costume. I was dressed
as Kelly and I did my set. I got off stage,
I was walking to the lobby and she walked past me.
(16:15):
She was dressed as Marilyn Monroe, and I was like, Wow,
who's that? And you know when time slows down, that's
what happened. It felt like I was moving in slow
motion as I looked at her and she looked back
at me. Later, I'm in the lobby and I see
her again and I talked to her and I flirted
with her. I was still in Kelly costume, but I
(16:35):
felt really confident.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah. So I didn't know, is this connected to Kelly?
This is awesome?
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
So we didn't know what we really looked like. Right,
So our first date was like a blind date because
we said we'll meet here. I didn't in those days,
you didn't look people up like I didn't her up
to see what she really looked like, right, That felt
creepy to me. Yeah, to investigate.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Her, I think people forget about that because it's so
normalized now that like, yeah, the idea of like online
stalking someone used to be very creepy behavior.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Yeah, So where we met and we had a great
first date. Yeah, we we wound up. We went to
this restaurant that both of us were like, this isn't
us Let's get out.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Of here nice.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
So we took off and we went to this little bar.
They were playing ABC by the Jackson five and have
you seen her by the Highlights? Oh? Wow, yeah, I've
seen her? Tell me have you seen? So that became
our the song we danced to at our wedding.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
It's so nice.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Oh my gosh, that's and I love that you you
met as two famous women and then they caame.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Just ever thought of it that way?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That is so cool.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But I tell a little more about how we met
in my show.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And you have two kids now, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Daughter's eleven and her son is five. I just did
baseball with him, and she's in a play. We're not
like pushing her into that, you know, we're just supporting
if she wants to do it great. And she's made
some short films too, whoa, And she's got talent. She
really does. She I've edited for her, she's been like
(18:33):
the director and I've sat editing her stuff. And she
knows timing. She's got great timing. She's just really she's
got a lot of talent.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And that must be so cool, getting to like collaborate
with your parents and you collaborating with your daughter.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
So cool because I'll try to teach her a little bit, yeh,
not too much. I want her to figure it out
on her own.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You have to realize her vision.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
But she knows what she wants. That rocks, and yeah,
it's totally raw. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Does your daughter know about the Kelly videos? Has she
seen them?
Speaker 5 (19:06):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
What's her take? Does she like them?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
She likes them, but they're not They're twenty years old,
so sure, it's like ancient history for her.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Wild But.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
I don't really ask her about I don't, right, I
don't really know what her opinion is per se. But
she knows about it, and I've performed when she's been
there a couple of times. I think, so she's heard
the flom and all that. You know, it's different like
when she was eight sick. You know, kids change so
much over time, totally so she could have a totally
(19:37):
different opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Now, I don't know, what is it like watching your
kids be these like digital natives.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
We try to hold back as much as possible. It's
like building a damn Yeah, it's you know, because you're
not just opening them up to the world and what's
out there, you're allowing people in to their world as well.
We took a class about like how to protect your
kids from you know, predators or you know, creepy people
(20:04):
and stuff. And the best piece I got out of
that piece of advice was who's asking what? Who wants
to do what with your kid? And what are they
doing and what are they asking to do? Like, oh,
we need to you know, do this thing privately or
you know, like that kind of shit. But online you
just don't. That's a whole different world. So we got
to take another class eventually. But we do things like,
(20:27):
you know, she has a phone, but it doesn't have
social media on it, right it has she can call
our friends or text our friends. And that's it for
my son, you know, he barely he's only five, so
he's he's not there yet. It's a new landscape and
I feel for parents out there because you just don't know.
Like you can put all the fail safe, all the
(20:49):
parental controls on the iPad and all that stuff to
try to protect, but there's.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Always going to be a way around it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Like it's just, yeah, cleaning out my dad house summer,
I found this letter I wrote to him. I don't know,
it's been like eleven or twelve, but it was like
this long apology for like having a secret MySpace account
that my parents didn't know about, and it was like I.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Was like, I'm so sorry I've betrayed you, and like
blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
And I think he kept it because he thought it
was funny. I'm curious how your relationship with the Internet
has changed, but I guess I'm even more interested in
how your relationship with Kelly has changed now that you're
sort of like reconvening with this character.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Yeah, my relationship with Kelly has definitely changed. It's weird
because I am Kelly, so it's really I'm talking about myself.
I am you know what it is. It's kind of
like I did this cool thing, I can still do
this cool thing, and I've kind of like stop the
negative talk in my head, like every time it rears
(21:52):
its ugly head. I'm like, I don't need to hear that.
I don't need to think that. I can just go
with what's going on and feel good about performing this
character and find joy in it and not think, oh,
I'm just you know, one dimensional, or you know, oh
I'm just this, you know, I'm not that talented, or
(22:13):
like all those terrible thoughts can go fuck themselves at
this point.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, well that's oh man, that is very empower
to hear. I'm glad for you, and I'm glad for
the audience. Is that, like people can.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Tell you how important your work is to them.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Because it's it's true, like there's just very few pieces
of work like Kelly, especially at the specific time where
it just is like it's a it's a generational work.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It's really special. And I'm glad, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, Oh my gosh, I mean I'm a big fan,
and I'm so glad that your relationship with a character,
in your relationship with yourself is like you can reconnect
with it on your own turn also come full circle
and be back on stage.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
It is amazing. Yeah, And I tell myself, you know, Liam,
it's okay, to suck. It's okay. You can get up
there thinking you're going to suck, and you might suck.
You might be awful, you might forget everything you wanted
to say, you might just lay a big egg up there.
But you got up there and you did it. And
(23:21):
that's the thing that way back when, like thirty five
years ago, maybe I got this advice, which was dare
yourself to suck. You know, if you're afraid of being
bad at something, don't let that fear stop you right
from doing it.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The Internet of today kind of discourages you from doing
that in a way that feels a little frustrating. Of
like again, like you're saying, like like you were having
to feel like you had to do in two thousand
and six, of like chasing the numbers, making sure that
like you're calibrating something to be creatively satisfying to this machine.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
Yeah, Like there's a trick to this, and if you
learn the trick, you'll succeed.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
But there is I mean, that's just impossible because I
feel like if you followed those rules, shoes wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
You know. Oh yeah, shoes broke a lot of rules, right, Yeah, Yeah,
I did a lot of things unconventionally, Yeah, and it
worked for me. This show that I'm doing is I'm
going to try to keep doing it and get it
really good. And it's been difficult to do because it
(24:26):
is such an emotional journey. Yeah, I'm talking about really
like the stuff we talked about here therapy. And it's
a hard show to do. It's really hard, I can imagine. Yeah,
it's sometimes I feel excited to do it and other
times I feel terrified to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And is that is this style of performance for you?
It sounds pretty new, right, that something that's personal.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yeah, I've never really gotten personal like this in front
of a big crowd. By the end of the show,
like I'll run the show in my head or you know,
just run the lines. By the end of it, I
feel better, think like maybe this is a good message.
There's I think there's a good message in it. I
don't think it's just me flapping my gums for an hour.
(25:09):
There's funny parts, there's sad parts, but I think as
a whole maybe people can come out of it with something.
Almost every time I finish it, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, thank you, Well, I mean thank you for taking
an hour and a half to.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Talk about it. Can we talk for an hour and
a half? Much?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
No?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I like it?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
There again, you're doing me a huge favorite. This is like,
so I'm so kind.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Stuff out.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I'll find something to cut out, you know. Thank you
so much to the wonderful Liam Kyles Sullivan. You can
follow him at the links in the description, and if
you happen to be listening to this the day it
comes out, he will be workshopping his show, a Liam
Kyle's Sullivan Show tonight at the Lyric Hyperion in LA
(25:56):
and next week on sixteenth Minute, we are taking a
side quest into the language of today's Internet. See you
then and for your moment of fun. Here is Kelly's
most recent official appearance, a promo for CrOx.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
I don't think you're going to fat, I mean your
favor I'm back. Oh by the way, why did it
just go get your size? Thank you? No, seriously, thank you.
(26:33):
You still have to pay for The.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Sixteenth Minute is a production of Whole Zone Media and
iHeart Ordaps. It is written, hosted, and produced by me
Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lickderman and Robert Evans.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
He amazing.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our
theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is from
Grant Crater and pet. Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson,
my cat's fleeing Casper, and my pet rock Bert, who
will outlive us all. Bye.
Cool Zon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, sixteen minute listeners, Last call for tickets.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
The Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is doing our post Oscars Spectacular show in person in
Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter and on a live stream
with tickets this Sunday, March second. It's going to be
a blast. We're going to be celebrating the show. We
will have guest spots from three of our favorite guests,
Danielle Perez, Akila Hughes and Grace Freud live and in person.
(00:32):
And if you have live stream tickets and you cannot
watch at that exact moment, no worries, feel free to
get a ticket anyways, you will be able to watch
the show for the next week. Okay, episode time Shoes,
My got do you remember?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I don't remember exactly when we first saw.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I feel like I remember being at your house, like
in the computer room or whatever.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, we either had
our computer room or it was probably right before the
computers made their way to our bedrooms, which sounds horrifying.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So this is my cousin Chloe, and we used to do,
amongst other things, watch Liam Kyle Sullivan's shoes on YouTube
every single day after school.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
You would have been last year of middle school, junior
high and I would have been a freshman or incoming
freshman into high school. And that's when when everything changed, when.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Relly, did you know that Kelly or I guess Liam
is from New England?
Speaker 4 (01:35):
No, yeah, that makes even better Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Oh okay, I didn't know if we were talking about
like New York, Connecticut, Massa, Chusetts, like the whole of
New Englander.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Okay, it was good people.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Kid, Do you remember muffins?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Muffins is everything? I have true word. The dog was
just roaming the huves.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I have true word association with banana, shides of glass,
by anything.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Fire.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I know in retrospect, I'm like, oh, he was obviously
from Boston because all of his characters have like but
that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
But what I think is so amazing is I did
not pick up on that at all. Right as a
thirteen fourteen year old, I'm like, this is how every
mother or person from here talk, So why wouldn't they talk?
Speaker 5 (02:21):
Great?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Mom, says Fire.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Especially what do you want, little Johnny? I'm like, yeah,
that's how we talk here exactly. That's why. How long
ago was that?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Which is gross?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I don't want to age twenty years.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I mean thank you. I love you.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
I love you.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Liam Kyle Sullivan aka Kelly. Your sixteenth Minute continues now.
(03:37):
Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we talk
to the Internet's main characters and speak about how their
moment affected them and how it changed the Internet and us.
And today we are continuing my talk with Liam Kyle
Sullivan aka Kelly of Shoes Fame. I have been so
(03:57):
happy to hear how much people are enjoying the first
part of this episode, So no commentary for me at
the top.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
We're just gonna jump back into it.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
We return to my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan at
the Lyric hyperiend a lot of just like internet stuff
is just very commonly understood now because it's just been
around for so long and almost in a kind of
like dystopian way sometimes, But like who in your life
could possibly relate with what you were going through? Like
there were so few people who had gone through anything
(04:28):
like it.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
There were a handful of us, right. I met Taizon
Day who did Chocolate Rain. Yes, yeah, wonderful human being.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
He seems like a sweetheart.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Very smart, and I got to meet him because Weezer
did a music video, but this was three years later,
so it's like two thousand and eight or nine. Yeah,
I think it was nine that I got to meet
him and we talked and oh wow, and Judson Lapley
(04:58):
who did the Evolution of Dance. Oh yes, I got
to meet him as well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
He's a very smart, lovely person too. And yeah, we've
talked over the years, actually, Judson and I about really
nice our experience because I still kind of have to
explain a little bit, like it was a unique way
to get famous right time. It's still kind of unique.
(05:26):
I mean, I guess it's not unique in that it's
been going on for twenty years, but it's the kind
of thing where it can happen like that, it can
happen in a moment that you don't even expect. I
feel lucky or fortunate that I was going for laughs.
You know, I was trying to make be a performer
(05:46):
and be out there, and some people that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You know, you have this like internet clout that is clear,
but also people don't fully understand.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So when you're translating that to you're already in.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Entertainment, you're a working actor at this point, how do
you bring that to your like reps and too meetings.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
I remember one meeting I had where yeah, it was
clear that guy didn't get why it was funny or
why people liked it. I don't know if that's like
a thing where well, we're trying to market to this
audience and you're finding this audience and we don't match up.
Our audience doesn't match up with yours, so we're not interested.
(06:27):
I think maybe that's what it might have been. One
of the things I gave up or just like stop
doing in my brain was trying to think or imagine
I'd go in circles in my head, why didn't that work?
Why didn't you know? Maybe it was because I was
bringing in some anxiety like I was before, Like I
(06:52):
might have had some desperation on me because I knew,
like this is a shot, this is you know, you
only got one shot. Do not miss your chance, blow.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Like that whole thing full a mile full a mile.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Yeah, maybe I had don't fuck this up too far
forward in my head, you know, I try to think,
what was my part in this? You know, why didn't
it cross over into mainstream success or not even mainstream
just like more traditional success. And I guess I've just
stopped thinking about that and it's made.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Me much happier.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Really, really, going into the Liam Sullivan Internet archive experience,
you were like ahead of the curve and people didn't
know what to do, like they didn't know how or
if there was still a sense or I guess I'm
curious if you felt the same way.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Stuff that was very special to you on the Internet
still felt like separate or like cool.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Or underground, even though every single person you knew had
seen it. It still felt like, well, but people don't
know about this, but we did.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, it's funny. I meet people now who haven't seen it.
I once did a show where there were a lot
of straight people, straight men who didn't know who I like,
had never seen and but we're appreciative, we're assholes. Yeah,
they were just like, wow, I never saw that. That
was really good. I don't know how I missed it.
(08:16):
And I was like, well, you know. Another thing was
that a couple years in, when I was making more
and more videos, it really did become harder and harder
to just do what I wanted because I suddenly I
was the studio exec I could see the numbers, right,
I could go under the hood and YouTube and say
(08:36):
people checked out at your video at you know, three
twenty three, or you know, this video did really well.
Make more videos like this.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, I know that some people are very like
invigorated by that, but I find it very stressful and
I'm like creatively limiting.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
Okay, yeah, and it's good to have limits as a
creative person sort sometimes because well most times, with the
mother of invention, you know that. But in this sense,
it was brand new. It's not like when you get
in front of a crowd and you don't get last,
You're like, okay, that didn't work. Let's go back figure
it out. You go up again, and it does get last,
(09:12):
You're like, Okay, I worked it out, it's working. Whereas
I was now at a place where I kind of
had to just put it out there and if it
wasn't working, well, you're sol.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And then be a data scientist on the back half
and like, which is like.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
I needed someone else to be doing that, But I
also didn't want somebody telling me you should make more
videos like this one. Right, I was like, well, what
about you know where I'm at now? As a creative
that kind of went away, you know, I started trying
to satisfy the numbers instead of making stuff that made
me laugh.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, at what point did it stop being fun? When
did it start to feel a good job.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
I think I always had fun, but I did get
to a point where I knew I had to do
Kelly if I wanted to make a living. This was
all I was doing. And there were no contracts coming in.
There was no like, oh, you're going to be on
this show, you know, paying Like that wasn't happening, and
so yeah, it was stressful. I tried to have fun,
(10:15):
but at a certain point I just said, you know what,
I think I have to stop. Gosh, I haven't really
thought about this in a long time, so it's hard
to articulate. It wasn't so much that I didn't like
the character Kelly. It was like I felt like I
was under her shadow. I never made anything as good
as shoes or muffins, and so I felt like I'm
(10:35):
just kind of I'm just kind of I don't know
what the word is, like circling. I feel like I'm
hovering in this zone of creativity, but I'm not growing. Yeah,
that's how it felt. It felt like a trap. It
felt like, oh geez, I can't do anything else. And plus,
you know, I was kind of catapulted into a different
(10:57):
way of making things right. You know, I had to
make things kind of like shoes took months to make.
I mean I shot on the weekends, I shot at night.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
A lot of locations. There's a lot going on.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
I location scouted, I did all that stuff. Yeah, I
was like, can you can you? I had three different
cinematographers helping me. No way, yes, because people weren't available.
Like I was like, are you available on around Saturday
at two o'clock. Now I'm doing this other thing. Okay.
It was a lot. Yeah, And so I remember having
(11:31):
one meeting with someone who said, yeah, we could do
a new video every month, and I was like, I
don't know if I can do that. Yeah. So it
was yeah, I don't know if you want to call
it burned out or taking a break for mental health
or just just like realizing, oh, I can't really make
money at this the way people are making money at
this now. Like that was like six years later, totally
(11:53):
a twother six years later, where it had changed a
lot and people were churning out stuff, real cheap stuff too,
like just talking to camera, and I was like, I
don't want to do that. I want to do a
character in the story and all the stuff right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Truly, Like you can count on one hand people who
had experienced anything like that when you were having to
process it.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, how did you process stuff like that? That's like
a lot of pressure to be under with like literally
no one to talk to about it that would understand.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I mean, Jesus, I don't know how I pressed well.
It took years of therapy later, but the therapy helped
me mostly with the feelings of anxiety that I would have,
because you have anxiety in life no matter what. And
I felt like I needed help to deal with it,
(12:44):
you know, I needed tools strategies to say, Okay, I
feel myself getting all, you know, worked up, you know,
whether it's meditation or breathing or you know, just something.
I need something right. And I got a lot of
help with that in therapy. We did cognitive behavioral CBD.
(13:08):
I was lucky, you know, I found a good therapist.
What really catapulted me into therapy was my mother died
and that hit me so hard because she was such
an inspiration to me. And she died when I was
thirty six and I was just married. You know it.
It really, it really messed me up for a while.
But it was right around the same time, like five
(13:30):
years after going viral where that happened, and so it
was kind of a I was in a bad place.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Was all of your family still in New England? Y? Yeah,
and being so far away that's really hard.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Yeah, my mom, Oh my gosh. So I wanted People's
Choice Award for you.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I saw the acceptance video.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
And so the reason there's an acceptance video of just
me on the couch is because that year there was
a writer strike and so did not have a regular
ceremony with the red carpet and the step and repeat
and all that. So I didn't get to go. But
my mother watched the East Coast feed, you know, the
(14:12):
live airing, and she called me three hours before it
came on out here and said, Liam, you won, you won?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You want Oh it.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Was so great.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's so sweet. Yeah, Oh that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I know.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
We'll be right back with more.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Liam Kyle Sullivan, Welcome back to sixteenth minute. Ariana Grande
is not going to win an oscar this weekend. But
(14:47):
I know how I feel. And here is the final
piece of my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan. Well, I
mean I want to talk a little bit about I mean,
I just want to talk about New England all the time,
either like from your family or your actual family into
your work at different times.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They're all over it. I mean, yeah, the Muffin Lady
is a hyper exaggerated version of my mother.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
She used to make gourmet she studied to be a
gourmet chef and she used to make these wonderful dishes
for me and my sister. But we were kids, so
gourmet food is like trash to us. But she put
it down in front of and say you'll eat it.
You'll eat it and like it. And that was that
stuck in my head and I put that in the
Muffins video Kelly's mother Grandma. That's based on two of
(15:36):
my grandmother's kind of mashed up together and the dynamic
you know in the shoes video.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I know, or I think I know, Maybe I'm wrong.
You worked with your now wife on Kelly videos. Right, Yeah,
how did you did you meet through doing that? Or
how did you meet?
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Oh? We met. It was great. It was so great.
Was doing a show at the Henry Fonda Theater in
October of two thousand and six. It was a Halloween show,
so everyone was dressed up in costume. I was dressed
as Kelly and I did my set. I got off stage,
I was walking to the lobby and she walked past me.
(16:15):
She was dressed as Marilyn Monroe, and I was like, Wow,
who's that? And you know when time slows down, that's
what happened. It felt like I was moving in slow
motion as I looked at her and she looked back
at me. Later, I'm in the lobby and I see
her again and I talked to her and I flirted
with her. I was still in Kelly costume, but I
(16:35):
felt really confident.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah. So I didn't know, is this connected to Kelly?
This is awesome?
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
So we didn't know what we really looked like. Right,
So our first date was like a blind date because
we said we'll meet here. I didn't in those days,
you didn't look people up like I didn't her up
to see what she really looked like, right, That felt
creepy to me. Yeah, to investigate.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Her, I think people forget about that because it's so
normalized now that like, yeah, the idea of like online
stalking someone used to be very creepy behavior.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Yeah, So where we met and we had a great
first date. Yeah, we we wound up. We went to
this restaurant that both of us were like, this isn't
us Let's get out.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Of here nice.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
So we took off and we went to this little bar.
They were playing ABC by the Jackson five and have
you seen her by the Highlights? Oh? Wow, yeah, I've
seen her? Tell me have you seen? So that became
our the song we danced to at our wedding.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
It's so nice.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Oh my gosh, that's and I love that you you
met as two famous women and then they caame.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Just ever thought of it that way?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That is so cool.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But I tell a little more about how we met
in my show.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And you have two kids now, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Daughter's eleven and her son is five. I just did
baseball with him, and she's in a play. We're not
like pushing her into that, you know, we're just supporting
if she wants to do it great. And she's made
some short films too, whoa, And she's got talent. She
really does. She I've edited for her, she's been like
(18:33):
the director and I've sat editing her stuff. And she
knows timing. She's got great timing. She's just really she's
got a lot of talent.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And that must be so cool, getting to like collaborate
with your parents and you collaborating with your daughter.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
So cool because I'll try to teach her a little bit, yeh,
not too much. I want her to figure it out
on her own.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You have to realize her vision.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
But she knows what she wants. That rocks, and yeah,
it's totally raw. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Does your daughter know about the Kelly videos? Has she
seen them?
Speaker 5 (19:06):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
What's her take? Does she like them?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
She likes them, but they're not They're twenty years old,
so sure, it's like ancient history for her.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Wild But.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
I don't really ask her about I don't, right, I
don't really know what her opinion is per se. But
she knows about it, and I've performed when she's been
there a couple of times. I think, so she's heard
the flom and all that. You know, it's different like
when she was eight sick. You know, kids change so
much over time, totally so she could have a totally
(19:37):
different opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Now, I don't know, what is it like watching your
kids be these like digital natives.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
We try to hold back as much as possible. It's
like building a damn Yeah, it's you know, because you're
not just opening them up to the world and what's
out there, you're allowing people in to their world as well.
We took a class about like how to protect your
kids from you know, predators or you know, creepy people
(20:04):
and stuff. And the best piece I got out of
that piece of advice was who's asking what? Who wants
to do what with your kid? And what are they
doing and what are they asking to do? Like, oh,
we need to you know, do this thing privately or
you know, like that kind of shit. But online you
just don't. That's a whole different world. So we got
to take another class eventually. But we do things like,
(20:27):
you know, she has a phone, but it doesn't have
social media on it, right it has she can call
our friends or text our friends. And that's it for
my son, you know, he barely he's only five, so
he's he's not there yet. It's a new landscape and
I feel for parents out there because you just don't know.
Like you can put all the fail safe, all the
(20:49):
parental controls on the iPad and all that stuff to
try to protect, but there's.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Always going to be a way around it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Like it's just, yeah, cleaning out my dad house summer,
I found this letter I wrote to him. I don't know,
it's been like eleven or twelve, but it was like
this long apology for like having a secret MySpace account
that my parents didn't know about, and it was like I.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Was like, I'm so sorry I've betrayed you, and like
blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
And I think he kept it because he thought it
was funny. I'm curious how your relationship with the Internet
has changed, but I guess I'm even more interested in
how your relationship with Kelly has changed now that you're
sort of like reconvening with this character.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Yeah, my relationship with Kelly has definitely changed. It's weird
because I am Kelly, so it's really I'm talking about myself.
I am you know what it is. It's kind of
like I did this cool thing, I can still do
this cool thing, and I've kind of like stop the
negative talk in my head, like every time it rears
(21:52):
its ugly head. I'm like, I don't need to hear that.
I don't need to think that. I can just go
with what's going on and feel good about performing this
character and find joy in it and not think, oh,
I'm just you know, one dimensional, or you know, oh
I'm just this, you know, I'm not that talented, or
(22:13):
like all those terrible thoughts can go fuck themselves at
this point.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, well that's oh man, that is very empower
to hear. I'm glad for you, and I'm glad for
the audience. Is that, like people can.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Tell you how important your work is to them.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Because it's it's true, like there's just very few pieces
of work like Kelly, especially at the specific time where
it just is like it's a it's a generational work.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It's really special. And I'm glad, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, Oh my gosh, I mean I'm a big fan,
and I'm so glad that your relationship with a character,
in your relationship with yourself is like you can reconnect
with it on your own turn also come full circle
and be back on stage.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
It is amazing. Yeah, And I tell myself, you know, Liam,
it's okay, to suck. It's okay. You can get up
there thinking you're going to suck, and you might suck.
You might be awful, you might forget everything you wanted
to say, you might just lay a big egg up there.
But you got up there and you did it. And
(23:21):
that's the thing that way back when, like thirty five
years ago, maybe I got this advice, which was dare
yourself to suck. You know, if you're afraid of being
bad at something, don't let that fear stop you right
from doing it.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The Internet of today kind of discourages you from doing
that in a way that feels a little frustrating. Of
like again, like you're saying, like like you were having
to feel like you had to do in two thousand
and six, of like chasing the numbers, making sure that
like you're calibrating something to be creatively satisfying to this machine.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
Yeah, Like there's a trick to this, and if you
learn the trick, you'll succeed.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
But there is I mean, that's just impossible because I
feel like if you followed those rules, shoes wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
You know. Oh yeah, shoes broke a lot of rules, right, Yeah, Yeah,
I did a lot of things unconventionally, Yeah, and it
worked for me. This show that I'm doing is I'm
going to try to keep doing it and get it
really good. And it's been difficult to do because it
(24:26):
is such an emotional journey. Yeah, I'm talking about really
like the stuff we talked about here therapy. And it's
a hard show to do. It's really hard, I can imagine. Yeah,
it's sometimes I feel excited to do it and other
times I feel terrified to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And is that is this style of performance for you?
It sounds pretty new, right, that something that's personal.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yeah, I've never really gotten personal like this in front
of a big crowd. By the end of the show,
like I'll run the show in my head or you know,
just run the lines. By the end of it, I
feel better, think like maybe this is a good message.
There's I think there's a good message in it. I
don't think it's just me flapping my gums for an hour.
(25:09):
There's funny parts, there's sad parts, but I think as
a whole maybe people can come out of it with something.
Almost every time I finish it, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, thank you, Well, I mean thank you for taking
an hour and a half to.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Talk about it. Can we talk for an hour and
a half? Much?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
No?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I like it?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
There again, you're doing me a huge favorite. This is like,
so I'm so kind.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Stuff out.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I'll find something to cut out, you know. Thank you
so much to the wonderful Liam Kyles Sullivan. You can
follow him at the links in the description, and if
you happen to be listening to this the day it
comes out, he will be workshopping his show, a Liam
Kyle's Sullivan Show tonight at the Lyric Hyperion in LA
(25:56):
and next week on sixteenth Minute, we are taking a
side quest into the language of today's Internet. See you
then and for your moment of fun. Here is Kelly's
most recent official appearance, a promo for CrOx.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
I don't think you're going to fat, I mean your
favor I'm back. Oh by the way, why did it
just go get your size? Thank you? No, seriously, thank you.
(26:33):
You still have to pay for The.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Sixteenth Minute is a production of Whole Zone Media and
iHeart Ordaps. It is written, hosted, and produced by me
Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lickderman and Robert Evans.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
He amazing.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our
theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is from
Grant Crater and pet. Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson,
my cat's fleeing Casper, and my pet rock Bert, who
will outlive us all. Bye.
Host
Jamie Loftus
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