This week on Sleuth you'll hear from Rachel Buffet's boyfriend soon after Daniel Wozniak was arrested for murdering his two friends. Scott Erhedt sits down with Linda Sawyer to share his shocking insights into their nearly two year relationship. We believe Erhedt would have made for a compelling witness in Rachel buffets accessory to murder trial.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.
When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful.
And I said, no, no, you didn't think about what
I should have done or what I could have done.
You said, you told me to burn the body. Did
(00:23):
you think I was Dan? Last night? Welcome to Sleuth.
I'm Linda Sawyer. That chilling moment you just heard happened
between Rachel Buffett and her then boyfriend Scott Arrett, who
(00:45):
spent two years with Rachel. Only months after Dan Wozniak's
arrest for murder. In an exclusive interview, Scott sat down
with us to talk about his time with Rachel. So
I wanted to first sort of recall when we first met.
And I remember you live pretty far from here, right
(01:08):
almost two hours out in the high desert. And I
remember renting my little orange juice canned car, and I
think I was driving through what they called the grape
Vine or something like that before that. But you're on
the fourteen, which is just a windswept high desert. Oh
my gosh. All I remember is white knuckles and I'm like,
why is this car moving into other lanes? And I'm
(01:29):
not asking it to do. Am I going to make
it a lie? And then it got there is like
this for this New York City girl is like making
County Line with those tumbleweeds. It is. I live in Maybury, RFD.
That's what it's like. Yeah, it's a very odd place,
but I like it. So I'm like, well, you know,
I have to talk to Rachel Buffett's ex boyfriend, who
(01:51):
who who knows it all? Who heard it all and
saw it all? Right? So I said, it's it's gonna
be worth it, And eight hours later it was yeah, yeah, was.
We had a good time, though, we did. We talked
for a long time. We certainly we closed down the
coffee shop. I think we opened it and closed it. Right. Yeah.
Every once in a while my mouth would drop, but
I pull it back out. Yeah, well you made me.
(02:14):
I mean I started because I hadn't thought about it
in a while, and I start talking about it, and
I realized just how bizarre it sounds when you say
it out loud and when someone's typing it into their computer. Yeah,
when you're just in the middle of it, just all
this one thing, But when when you're telling on someone
who's who's typing it you're going do I say that? Well, yeah,
(02:34):
and then she says, hey, how about come on come
on my podcast the Country. Sure, yeah, well but I
love what you're doing, so I think it's a good idea,
So somebody has to It's incredible to me that the most,
the most they can charge you with is accessory after
the fact. Well, we have been speaking to quite a
(02:57):
few people and you or I've tried to pose the question,
you know, is it possible that she didn't know that
she was duped, which is what she's saying, and there
is just not one Yes, there's like, oh god, no,
have you talked to her mother? No? But I've certainly
made my pleasantries, but they pretty much, I think at
(03:19):
this point try to keep to themselves, probably smarter well,
certainly after Dr Phil I think she even said, you
know something, because Steve Hair, who's the father of Sam,
said to her, I'd appreciate if you'd stopped doing interviews
and wait till the trial, because if you're innocent, let's
have the justice system decide that. And she said, maybe
I have made a mistake coming on the show. You
(03:41):
think sort of unraveled. I'd love to know your impressions
because you did say you saw her on the show. Um,
it was a typical performance. It was the big dough
eyes and the Disney Prince's head nods and the how
dare you think us of me? And we're talking about
two dead people and families that are grieving, and still
she managed to make the show all about her, which
(04:02):
tells you a lot right there. And she's the victim,
not the dead people, not the family the dead people,
but she's the victim. And she even referenced that, and
I think she felt like she was being gracious when
she said, listen, I'm a victim, but I know I
come after Julia and probably even the victims families. It's like, oh,
(04:23):
you know, you're really figuring where you are on it?
How gracious? How how you know? Extraordinary that it's like
pure psychotic narcissism. It's right there on display. I know
that I'm not the main victim. Sam and Julie are
the main victims, and then I think even secondary would
be their families. I'm after all that. I realized that,
(04:44):
and that's why that's why I didn't want to come
out in the limelight before two and a half years ago.
I tried to keep it to myself and tried to
work through it and try and do my own little
hillieling process or whatever. Let's talk about the church in
Christianity and how it plays such a part in this
in the family, in the Buffett family, and certainly you
(05:06):
know firsthand. I mean, I think one of our interviews,
Daniel Hulkyard, who was a friend of Dan Wozniak, said
that she hides behind her faith. Would you agree with
that statement. She didn't just hide behind it, she uses it.
It's it's it's brilliant. I saw a meme the other
day that made me think of her, and it says
(05:27):
something about never trust someone who can just confess their
crimes to their imaginary friend once a week. And I thought,
there you go, you know, I mean, the whole story
with her father and the hookers and the bankrupting the
family and then getting angry with her mother because she
was hurt by it. I'm telling her, I've been forgiven.
You need to get over it. Did he really say
(05:49):
that in your presence? No? No, no, Rachel told me
about it. Her mother told me about it. But that's
how they feel. Once once got forgives you, you're good
to go. In fact, I think you even said to
me when we met that Monday through Saturday, do whatever
you want, but as long as you ask for forgiveness
(06:11):
on Sunday. Well I think I told you. I think
she sees the Ten Commandments as a bucket list, and
she's getting through it really well. I mean, you know,
she's crossing him off that list one at a time,
and it's okay because on Sunday goes sorry and then
you can start all over again. I've asked this of
people that you know, are they're born again or really
(06:32):
Christianity is is a you know, certainly a backbone of
their livelihood. And I'm like this whole forgiveness stuff like
God forgives you, God forgives everyone on death row and
every so you could just do whatever you want and
then just say God forgive me. And the person said
to me, but you have to mean it. And I
think if you're psychotic enough, you can do it, confess
(06:55):
it and mean it and then do it again. I mean,
why not you know, um that long before anybody was murdered, she,
you know, a thief like nobody's business for for fun,
just steal things for fun, And how you can be
(07:15):
the alter religious person and think it's fun to see
how much crap you can walk out of Walmart with
stuffed in your clothing is bizarre to me. I know.
I've had interviews with several of her friends that she
literally stole on pretty much a daily basis. I mean,
whether it was food, alcohol, clothes, furniture in their house.
(07:38):
I mean one of the gals who was supposed to
be in her wedding party said she even stole her
bridesmaid's dresses. In her wedding dress, I'm like, how do
you do that? I mean, she's a tiny thing. Where
did she fit it? I don't know. She's very ingenious.
I was at Walmart with her one time and she
told me she was going to steal some makeup and
I said, no, no, not not, not while I'm here.
(08:00):
You can do whatever you want her, but if you
need makeup, I'll buy it for you. I'll buy it. Well, no,
I don't need it, It's okay. So we get up
to the checkout stand and she says, oh, I forgot something,
and I thought, oh no, and she runs back to
the makeup section, but she came back with this little
thing of like perfumer, nailpolo something something in an in
a box and so I took it out of her
hand and put it on the thing and I'm paid
(08:21):
for it, you know. And we got into the car
and she started just like giggling minightly. I'm like what.
And she opened the box and said, this is a
box for a five dollar one and I put this
twenty one in the box. And she was so proud
of herself. Wow. And I said, I was going to
pay for it. What difference does it mean? But it
was it was the thrill of doing it. It's the thrill.
(08:42):
It's the adventure of violating the Ten commandments. I swear
your bucket list, it's her bucket list. One of uh,
one of her friends, one of their mutual friends that
they had met recently, a gentleman by the name of
Chris Williams, who was the person that loaned them the
money to stave off the eviction week of the murders.
And he's got a story himself. But uh, he met
(09:05):
with them the night before. They invited him over it
for like barbecuing mineral sausages whatever, and he said that
he felt as if there was this feeling of We've
got to know what the next level of challenge in
our lives feels like. We need to know what it
feels like to to maybe what it feels like to
(09:27):
murder someone. And the reason he said that was he
said that Dan had recited on the deck. Uh this,
I don't know if you know this movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway,
it's a it's based on a Patricia Highsmith book who
sort of was the equivalent of Stephen King in Europe,
and she does all these kind of creepy stories and
and the lead in the movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley
(09:51):
was played by Matt Damon and that was Dan's favorite
movie role. And in front of Chris Williams, Dan starts
reciting seeing as the character of Tom Ripley, who steals
people's identities and then when they figure out who he is,
he kills them. So there's Daniel reciting, you know, word
(10:13):
for word scenes as if he's that Matt Damon character,
and then he sings this song, this beautiful Aria, word
for word, and literally Chris said, I was chilled to
the bone because at that moment, sam Hair leans over
his deck and he said, hey, you know, not get
off down there. You guys having some fun, and and
Daniel's like, come on down, Sam, and it's like, no,
(10:33):
I'm going to go to bed, but I'll see in
the morning. And he goes, Okay, you know, see you tomorrow.
Thanks for helping me, Like, because Sam, that was the
day that Sam he had arranged for tomorrow was the
go help him move in the in the theater, and
that was the day Dan murdered Sam. Yeah, so he's
like a sorrow how And honestly, when that whole scene
(10:55):
is is you know, told to me, I got chills
because right, I'm mean life imitating art, Like it's just
so bizarre. And and that's person said to me, I
just got the feeling like they wanted to know. They
needed to know the next level of crazy. They needed
to know what it felt like to kill someone, you know.
So it sort of falls in line with a lot
(11:16):
of what you told me about her. Are your experiences
with her? That's really creepy? Um, there is I think
there's a there's a feeling of superiority. Um because well,
first of all, you know, God's on her side, so
how can you beat that? That's pretty perfect by it.
So and there's that feeling of she loves to manipulate
(11:39):
and see what she can get people to do that's
outside their comfort zone. And so I think she generally,
um in partners, picks people that she thinks she's going
to be able to manipulate like that. She made a
mistake with me. It didn't work. But and if you
work for your five other wives, thank you, thank you.
Let's just bring that up. Why don't we? No, it
(12:00):
didn't because I'm a little strong world. Um, but the
manipulation thing, she would play weird manipulation games, weird weird,
weird stuff. I remember. I remember going to the movies
once and it was like fifteen minutes before we even
so we bought our tickets and we're sitting on these
stairs out of the movie theater and all of a sudden,
(12:21):
I don't know where, she says to me, I've and
she would say this stuff with a straight face, and
that she would she would look at you with and say,
I've decided that my walk with Jesus isn't strong enough,
and so we need to stop having sex because it's
against my religion. So at that I didn't know that
(12:41):
there was a religion that was against sex. Well, you know,
we weren't married, so it was it was a horrible sin.
I was getting laid on a regular basis by someone
half my age, so I might die in between. There's
a risk everything. I can't believe tell you these things. Okay,
(13:02):
this is amateur psychology, and who knows. But she was
so controlled growing up. I've never heard of people editing
the bad parts out of Disney cartoons. But her parents
wouldn't let them wauch a movie unless they had gone
through and taken out anything they didn't like in like Bambi.
I was just gonna say, like baby taking a shower.
(13:23):
I don't know they would take out anything with it.
So she and she wasn't not to go to school,
and she wasn't how to play with the kids in
the neighborhood, and she wasn't, you know, because they weren't
good Christians, so I think in her only book. So
then she decided to go to college, and I think
her parents weren't very fond of this idea, but she
(13:44):
wanted to do it. So she went to the local
community college, and all of a sudden, the world opened
up and she realized, oh my god, I'm pretty, I
can be sexy, I can hold my liquor and I
can and she just think she should power. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Guys,
(14:05):
you're panting and looking at her, and she Okay, I've
got this power, and she learned to use it. And
when she jumped, she jumped. I mean that's seriously, That's
when the ten Commands became, not not the ten Commandments,
but the bucket list that was, I can get away
with anything. Her friends at school at college said that
(14:27):
she started to smoke because she felt like because she
was homeschooled, she really didn't know how she could relate
to other people in a social setting, and so she
thought that made her look cool, and the same thing
with the drugs, like I'm going to be cool now
because I want everybody like me, or at least feel
like I belong. And part of that, I think is,
(14:49):
you know, the isolation of homeschooling and and what that
does to your own psyche. You know, we really haven't
had the chance to, you know, exchange and be a
part of a regular day life of a kid. Yeah,
or find out who you are and what you what
you like and don't like because the only thing you
have is what's spoon fed to you by you're slightly
(15:12):
insane parents. I believe that you told me a story
that she shared with you about this a gay student
at the college. Tell us, tell tell us about it.
I don't know a lot about it. I know she
she gets a great kick and a giggle out of
the fact that there was this gay kid and she
(15:33):
talked to him into having sex with her so that
she could show me wasn't gay, or so that she
could just so that she could do it again. Manipulation.
I don't know. Maybe if I can get this gay
kid to have sex with me, that's an accomplishment, and
she did. There's more to the story. I heard from
her boyfriend at the time in college where she came back,
(15:56):
that she took him. She took him side of the
rehearsal space they were in a in a show together,
and brought him back to I guess the dorm apartment whatever.
And they did, in fact have got conjugal visit, but
it didn't go so well. And supposedly she came back
to set and ridiculed him in front of the cast
(16:17):
to the point where he left the school. That would
make sense. Yeah, I mean, well, he's gay and that's
she's religious. That's wrong, you know, well because God, because
it's murder, okay, but being gay that it's ungodly. Yeah,
(16:38):
you know, I have to wonder when you have a
family that's so structured and the whole idea of faith
and leading the good life of a Christian is just
permeates their their everyday existence. Right. But yet she finds
out that the reason why they're not well off and
quite frankly, always struggling for money is because the father's
(17:00):
spending his paychecks on prostitutes and gambling. That's got to
make you hate your father, or hate man, or or
hate the idea of being poor because of a man.
Do you feel like that in some way had some
bearing on some of her behavior and choice. I think
that rose her father up a few notches in her eyes, really,
(17:22):
how so, because she has no respect for anybody or
anything normal. So I think her father doing that made
her go, cool, look what he's doing, because she thinks
her mom's a moron, Because her mother just is nothing
but Jesus all day long. I mean, there's posted notes
all over the house, and the Jesus pillows and Jesus
(17:45):
did this and pictures on the wall, and her dad said,
enough of that, I'm going to go have fun. And
I think she liked that. I think she respects. So
the rebellious act is what she approved of. Yeah, yeah that. Yeah.
Now didn't he at one point actually have an extra
marital affair that Marian found out that tell us about
How did you learn about that? Um? She told me
about it, and she said that her mother found notes
(18:07):
in the glove box or someplace something like that, and
but she she was never angry with him. She wasn't like,
I can't believe he would do something like that. She
were just talking about that's what my dad did. Not
my mother is really upset. Uh, let's go steal something,
you know. It was just a matter of fact. Yeah,
I didn't really bother her. So if it didn't have
(18:29):
to do with her, it didn't bother her. How did
you first meet Rachel Buffett Um? I was working at
Medieval Times and uh, she came to work at Medival
Times as a princess um and I had been dating
one of the other princesses and uh that was falling apart,
(18:49):
and then Rachel came worked this. So I called her
one night and said, do you want to get together
and have coffee or something? And she said she was
out with her brother or her brothers, I don't forget what,
but when they get back. Sure. So she met me
at a coffee shop, um, down here in Orange County
because it was a long drive home for me, so
I would often stay down here. And we sat there
(19:10):
talking forever, and I remember we were talking about acting.
We were talking about medival time, so what it was
our place it is? And we were talking about uh,
she had worked for Disney, what it was our place
that was? And just as we were getting ready to
part for the evening, she says to me, oh, by
the way, just you should know that if you're going
(19:31):
to become friends with me that, um, you may be
investigated by the FBI and and and polices, police forces
and things like this. And I said, well, why is that?
She's well, I had something happened, I said, what did
you do, sud No, I didn't do anything, but my
ex fiance did something and I don't I don't want
(19:52):
to talk about it, but just so you know that
that could happen, I said, okay. So good night. We laughed.
So let me started seeing each other more, and I
kept asking, what what is it? What? What did he does?
The drug dealer? No, no, no, no, what what what
does it? And finally didn't know. I had no idea.
(20:14):
And finally with that, I said, so, come on about
your experiency. What is he like? An AX murder or what?
And her face her and a D shades have read
and she said, we need to talk, and I okay,
and I'm thinking, oh my god, he's an AX murder.
So he met for dinner. She told me the whole
her version of the whole story, and my job was
on the ground, I thought, and it works. I thought, oh,
(20:38):
your poor thing, Oh my god, that that she was
engaged to be married to this guy, and that nothing
he was leading a complete double life, and everything he
said was a lie, and she believed it all because
she was madly in love with him. And then all
(20:59):
of us sudden he had murdered her friends and she
couldn't believe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible.
That lasted for a while, and the more we talked
and the more I learned, the more I realized that
story isn't quite the way it happened. There's a little
more to it than that. And oh my god, I
(21:20):
think you killed people. Pardon me, you know, but it happens.
So because honestly, she is can be pretty good at
that Disney princess, big blue eyed, looking up at you
with all the innocence in the world. For a while,
(21:42):
I think in passing it works. But when you start
to see the pattern and you start to put together
with all the other stuff, and you go, oh, this
is and it works for like a short stint, a
sound bite that if you're on anything longer, like a
Dr Phil show. Eventually, when she had her press conference
after when she was arrested November, when she was finally
(22:04):
released and they had a little press conference in front
of the jail and and uh, you know, she was
batting away there and just you know, oh my gosh,
I'm innocent. And Noah was there, you know, caressing her.
And that's as we'll talk about that in a minute.
But that evening she was telling friends I've interviewed those
(22:24):
friends and they and that she said to instead of
being like just for Loren that you know, you're about
to marry this psychotic right, instead she's telling all her friends.
Do you hear them? They're calling me an actress? Oh
my god. Yeah, that's was her overwriting statement about all
(22:45):
of the press that she was getting from that day
because now she's famous, right wow. And even when she
was on Dr Phil, he made some comment about you
know that sounds of rehearse. Now you are an actress,
so we have to be aware of that, and you
might be a very good actress that she recoiled like
in this like kitten like you know, posture, just smiling
(23:06):
ear to ear like That's all we're talking about here, right,
is that that you could be a good actress. You know,
That's that's really not the that's not the headline, right,
you know, but you're talking about her, so it's good.
As long as you're talking about her, it's all good.
It's all wonderful. So after you heard that story or
(23:28):
what you thought was the real story, you you felt
for her. Yeah, I mean she was a victim in
all this, you know, and tragic and horrible. Does someone
so young and pretty and cute and just innocent and
sweet would be subjected to this horrible murdering? I mean
I bought it, and I think I'm a pretty shrewd guy,
(23:52):
but I'm not sure I was thinking properly. So I
bought it. I thought, wow, so you were going to, yeah,
be her protector and sure that you know, there's a
there's a whole wonderful world out there, come out, ride horses,
(24:12):
have a good time. Yeah. So it's just slowly. It
was started with the stealing, and started with the drinking,
and then the stealing stuff, and then the pride in
in the strangest things. At one point we were just
casually dating. At this point, she got all excited because
(24:35):
she gets a free trip to Vegas. I said, how
are you getting a free trip to Vegas? And there
was some guy was gonna take her to Vegas. Yeah yeah,
And I said, well that's not quite free. I don't
think he's taken it there for free. Well, you know,
we'll see what happens. I don't have to do anything.
So she goes to and we're texting and she took
(24:55):
her friend along on her friend is Kelly is just
another bizarre Is that Kelly Fleming? I don't know her
real name, like Kerosene Kelly. I think that's Kelly Fleming
And she's man, what um, just a huge enabler, huge
enabler and has some strange she she would take her
(25:21):
to lesbian clubs. Yeah, and Rachel insisted, well, she's not gay.
I said, why, why why would she be taking you
to lesbian clubs? Well, just I mean to show off.
So that's why it didn't make any sense. And now
I'm going to think, well, maybe she's not the sweet
(25:42):
and maybe she's just remarkably stupid. And then I slowly realized, no,
she's not stupid either. She liked being shown on because
it was all about her. So her friend, who insists
to her, look, I am not gay. I just want
to take you to this club and show you off
as my girlfriend will pretend it's like the trophy girl,
(26:06):
the trophy wife. Yeah, I don't know. It was the
most bizarre. So she takes her with her to Vegas.
I don't think this guy thinks he's got it made.
Now he's gonna go home. Probably did. So we're taking
and she texted something to me about, well, you know,
I had to thank him last night. What what are
you a prostitute? This is the most bizarre thing. So
(26:29):
she comes back and she tells me I've been in
tears for two days. I can't believe you would think
that of me. I said, wait a minute. You went
to Vegas with some guy, you said, kind of creep
you out, but you had sex with him in exchange
for being taken to Vegas. And you're upset that someone
(26:51):
would consider that prostitution. Are you serious? So there's a
preamble to that story. Okay, well I'd love to know
the preamble to that story. James Mulligan told me that,
you know, he's a fantastic artist. I mean, truly does
all this Disney art. And and I guess one of
his clients was a church, a local church, and he
(27:13):
they asked him to do the like the Nativity scene
in one of the walls on the on the church.
And so he's, you know, painting the whole scene, the
whole Nativity, Baby Jesus and all. And and she walks
in with a fifth of vodka. And she walks down
the aisle and what heads over to him? And he said,
(27:36):
before he knew it, there she was down on him
doing a little a little number that he said, I
did color outside of the lines. At that point, you know,
I'm just the juxtaposition of this, you know, very religious scene, right,
one of the most religious scenes. And there she is
(28:00):
doing what she's doing. I said, oh my gosh, Well
the dichotomy is he's not lost, it's okay. She She's
at my place one night and she wakes up. It's
probably two or three in the morning, and she says,
I feel an evil presence. And by that time I
(28:21):
was starting to think maybe it's you. So I feel
an evil presence. I said, I'm sorry. What would she
like to do about it? And she said, do you
mind how I put on some praise music? And I said,
I think I'm fresh out of praise music. I don't
think I am. She said, well, I'm getting on your computer.
I said, go ahead, whatever, you go ahead. She gets
(28:41):
up and she goes to my laptop and she somehow
hooks up the thing and next thing I know, you know,
the laptops. Our God is an awesome God, he reads,
and she climbs back in bed and goes down. I mean,
we have sex to our God is an awesome God.
I guess that's what she needs. That's it gets her going.
(29:03):
My word, nothing makes you hot like Jesus. I don't know,
it's just bizarre. It's bizarre. Didn't you tell me? Also
you had to cover up? Oh yeah, that was another
she said. And she just comes out to this stuff
out of nowhere. She says to me, I can't come
out to your home anymore. At this one, she was
coming out very regularly, and I said, hey, why not?
(29:27):
She said, well, you have dragons all over the place,
and I like medieval stuff, so I've got different like
ceramic and the resident little dragon sculpture of things. You know, well,
she said, I said, well, what what does that have
to do anything? She said, well, they represent Satan. Know,
(29:47):
they represent dragons. What are you talking about? She said, well,
dragon dragons are often used to represent Satan because they're
serpent like. And said, okay, well these don't these represent
medieval you know, n slang dragons that it's just dragons.
It's it's okay, But no, I can't come out there anymore.
I said, okay. So I had some little dragons coming
(30:10):
and some of these little swords. So I put the
little swords by the little dragon. Said there, I've killed
all the dragons. Can you come out now? And she says, no,
you have to. You have to take them on down
I said, well, I'm not gonna take them down. So
that's that's the end of that. And about two days
later she said, are you going to take me home
after the show? I said, they're dragons. There'll be dragons
out there, and she said it's okay. I said, okay,
(30:31):
good bizarre bizarre stuff and everything relates back to God,
to Jesus, to religion, to the whole upbringing that she
straight so far from ambassardized so much, but she she
hangs onto it. Well, she pulls it back in when
(30:53):
she needs it, right, yeah, oh yeah, well yeah. She
her current boyfriend worked with us at the castle. All
three of us worked at medival times, and he's a
pastor son, and they would quote scripture to each other
and they would talk about Billy Elliot. He shows up
in court a lot. He shows up with like scriptures,
(31:14):
needle pointed in his shirt. Yeah, well, you know he's
a good Christian, he said. He has some interesting tattoos. Yeah,
he's got some lovely and now I'm not often alone
with men when they're naked, but um, at medival times,
everyone kind of gets dressed in the same area. He's
got some lovely nipple piercings and uh and his crotch
(31:37):
reads raw Dog. Editor's note. I had no idea what
raw Dog meant, but my editor sure did. Well, it's
locker room talk. It's a guy who has sex without
a condom. Really, yeah, that's it. So I mean, but
it's I think it says raw dog. For Jesus, No,
(31:59):
I'm just kidding. It doesn't say that. So there was
a point in time in her life where she was
heavily involved in drugs, and it was certainly during the
times of the murder and soon after the murders that
she uh, you know, she was getting getting crystal meth
and ecstasy from all of her her friends. And I
don't know if she shared that with you or not,
but that was definitely a part of their life. Yeah,
(32:22):
she talked about it. Yeah, she talked about the numb
feeling and how much she liked the numb feeling. And
and I remember that stuck in my because she was
talking about she was almost intimating that you could do
anything while you're feeling like that because you don't have
(32:42):
any feelings of responsibility or any any guilt, any anything.
And I'm thinking, was that when you planned this stuff
then did it all make sense while you were that
messed up? You know, I don't know because I don't understand, right,
I don't get it. But I mean, I've been told
by people. I've I've never done these drugs either, but
(33:03):
I've been told by people when you are on crystal meth,
you could murder your own grandmother. You know, I mean
that you have you have no soul anymore. You just
don't care, Like you said that, there's just no remorse,
there's no nothing, there's no your numb and and what's
amazing to me is as numb as she is in
everyday life, I can't imagine how empty she would be
(33:29):
with some chemical help. I mean, that's really scary, it
really is. That's a frightening thing, you know. You I
think you've said to me before something about her eyes.
There's nothing there. I honestly, I the last the last
few months of dating were more like research because I
thought I should write a screenplay about this, and I
(33:51):
was gonna call it empty because she is soulless. You
can look at it and there's nothing there. They might
light up if you're talking about something she's excited about
at the moment that about her. But for the most part,
they're they're empty. There's nothing there, and that's normal. That's
when she's sober so and you can see it. You
(34:13):
can see it in the interviews. You know what you
can see in a Disney cartoon. Obviously, there's nothing there.
It's it's a one dimensional there. It is. That's what
they look like. And it fools you for a minute
because it looks like a Disney cartoon. But look at
a closer realized this is a live, actual human being
and it looks like a one dimensional Disney cartoon. And
(34:34):
she was a she was she was a Disney princess.
She had sex with Daniel in the shell, know aerial
shell at Disneyland. She was very proud of that, very
proud of that. And she also stole from there. She
was bad about that because there's such security there, but
somehow she managed. That's what her boyfriend at the time,
(34:55):
Kyle Rubelle, was saying that. You know, he said the
same thing, I'll pay for it, don't steal it. And
yet she went off with a cousin of hers and
and came back all giggly because she was so proud
of herself. Yeah, yeah, that's quite the accomplishment. Amazing, right, Yeah, totally.
(35:15):
She also has an interesting relationship with her brother Noah.
That's one way to put it. Yeah, it's a sick relationship.
It really is. Tell us why you think so? Um, God,
several several things. One of them is the the codependency
when it comes to drinking. And finally, at one point
(35:37):
I told her, look, I'm not ever going to meet
you in a bar again. This is never gonna happen again,
so I'm not doing it. So that's it. And one
night I get out of work. She wasn't working as
a princess that night, I was working at the castle.
I got out and there are all these messages from her,
please come to be. My brother's in trouble. I need help.
So I called her and said where are you? When
she named the bar and I said, no, I told
(35:59):
you I'm not coming to the bar. So I don't
know what to do. He's crazy. I said, I'll come
get you out of the bar, but I'm not hanging around,
and she said okay. So I went over there and
there she sits with Noah and he's crying and she's
crying and they're both just sloppy drunk, and I said, okay, well,
(36:20):
let's go and we'll talk about it. So what is this?
So we got I get him out to my car
and I said, what is going on? Well, Noah's girlfriend
had gotten pregnant. So he's trying to decide whether a
really sharp kick in the stomach we'll take care of it,
or if he needs to actually push her down some stairs.
(36:40):
Or Rachel's great idea, which is she can call I
think it was Kelly and get a whole box of
the Morning After pills and then grind those up and
put it in her food and oh dear on that stuff,
and surely that would cause her to spontaneously aboard. So
and I said, well, okay, this whole thing is nuts.
(37:02):
I mean, where would you even get that? Rachel's Kelly,
and she brought him over. Did you have them now? Yes?
And I said no, have you even talked to her yet? Well,
she called me and she said she was pregny. I said,
but have you talked her about what she wants to do?
Maybe she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy.
(37:23):
Maybe it's all okay, maybe it's shouldn't you find that
out first? And Rachel's just well, he's really upset and
he just found out about this, and I said, well,
don't humor him. For christ sake, you said about killing somebody.
What is wrong with you? So I took him home
and took her back to my place and said, this
is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And the next day
(37:46):
the girl and Noah talked and she said, you know,
I don't want to have a baby, and he said, okay,
well we'll take care of it. That that was it.
But he's getting ready to kill her. What the he?
How is that a plan? Even? How was that even planed? B?
I don't know plan B. That's very good. I saw
what she did there. So and then shortly after so
(38:09):
this got me talking about Noah more because now I'm
I'm just fanded. And then she starts, you go deep, well,
so to speak, and she starts talking about how small
Noah's penis is. And after the third or fourth reference,
I said, how do you know? And she said, I quote,
(38:32):
somebody's got to teach him what to do with it.
Did you infer that she had sex with her brother
from that statement? Yeah? Pretty strongly? Yeah? Yeah? And did
she sort of give you that indication that she did
have sex. What was she teaching him? I think so, yeah,
because who better than her? She's brilliant. She really said that,
(38:56):
That's what she said. Then she refused to discuss it anymore.
So did you follow up with are you telling me
that you've had oh? Yeah, yeah, and she said, I
don't want I'm not going to talk about this. I'm
not going to talk about this, which was her standard
m O, which is to drop the bomb and then
say I'm not going to talk about this. In every instance,
when you saw Noah and Rachel together, did you get
(39:17):
the feeling like it was beyond a normal brother sister relationships? Yeah?
And I asked her about it, um and she said, well,
you you don't know, you don't have a sister. I said, well, no,
I don't, but I mean it's you know, it's kind
of weird. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal. What did
you think of their relationship on Dr Phil? It was creepy.
(39:41):
What was really creepy to me is why he was
wearing a black knit hat on Dr Phil. I'd never
seen that before. I didn't see him a lot, but
I saw him occasionally went to the wine bar or
whatever it is that he had a few times, and
I saw him at his house and you know, with
the family though. The whole thing about the man with
the black hat, I know, and that was the basis
(40:02):
for one of Rachel's felony charges. This man in a
black hat that she repeated as the last person to
be with Sam and he was made up right, and
he chooses to go on Dr Phil wearing a weird
knit black hat. It was a very strange thing. I
(40:23):
don't know if he was going to try to it
looked to me he was going to try to set
up some alibi thing where she was said, you know
what I saw. No, that's what made me think of it. No,
always where is this black hat? That's how bizarre and calculated,
but stupidly calculating. I mean, if you look at the murders,
(40:43):
the plot, the plan, the conspiracy is so stupid. It's
so stupid that only they could have planned it. I
firmly believed she helped plan that. So you're at this point,
are you sed an item? Are you still together? That
(41:04):
was really late and at that point I'm really trying
to find out what in the hell did she murder
these people? I'm thinking, maybe he's completely innocent, and she
did it. I know, I'm going, what the hell she's
plotting with her brother. She's her brother is talking about
maybe kicking her in the stomach, throwing her down some stairs,
(41:26):
that causing her board. She's talking about killing her. So
I thought, well, okay, did at one point you feel
like you were in crazy town? Oh yeah, it was
definitely crazy town toward the end, definitely crazy town. It was.
It was kind of a kick, it was kind of
I'm just fast. Yeah, I want to know now. But
(41:52):
the final straw was driving her home drunk and she's
sleeping in my lap because I said she likes to
cuddle Chris like a little kitten, you know, which is
very sweet. So we're driving home after singing karaoke and
having a good time up until you know, she's incoherent
and she snuggles up on my lap and I'm really thinking,
(42:13):
this is, this has gotten just nuts. This probably should
end soon. This is I'm not sure this is worth it.
Even even even the old man with the pretty young
thing is going just don't think it's worth it anymore.
And she starts mumbling in her sleep. So I'm driving
and I said, what did you say? And she reaches
(42:36):
up with a fist and smacks me really hard in
the chest and says, I told you to burn the body.
And I just kept drying, what do you? What the hell?
So little later, what did you say? Nothing? She's out?
(42:59):
How many times did she say it? Just once? And
then she was out. So we got home and the
next morning I said, do you know what you said
to me last night? But the next morning you're not
right away right, You're cooking this elaborate breakfast yea, which
I found quite fascinating, like French sometimes breakfast, I know,
(43:22):
but it was like French eggs and yeah, and some
hash browns and some sliced avocado. I mean talking about
fresh ruttle Stephen King moment. Well, I wanted her to
be comfortable because you knew you were going. Oh, I
have to ask about this. I think you even said
(43:42):
to me you knew that was going to be the
last breakfast. This is it. It's kind of like the
last supper, example is the last breakfast. And and I said,
do you know what you said last night? And we're
sitting out I have this little patio area outside. I
don't smoking the smoke out there. You know. Let's you
were having a little outside, finished the breakfast, some coffee.
(44:08):
Do you know what you said to me listening? So
this is now outside, Yeah, in like a cabata Yeah
where that? Yeah? Okay? And she said no, what And
I said, well, you hit me and you said I
told you to burn the body. And she said, I
did not say that. I said, yeah you did. No,
(44:29):
I said you should have burned the body. I'm thinking, oh,
you you know that. You said something in your sleep first.
It's so bad. I know, it's so bad. When she's trapped,
it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no,
you didn't say about what I should have done or
what I could have done. You said you told me
(44:51):
to burn the body. Did you think I was damn
last night? I don't want to talk about it. That's it.
That's what you can't talk about anymore. And it really
just ended there. It certainly sounds that this outbursts that
you're telling us about Scott was in fact Rachel thinking
(45:13):
she was instructing Dan what to do with Sam's body, because,
after all, Dan left Sam's lifeless body in the theater
attic and for her to make that comment to you.
Scott tells me that perhaps she and Dan spoke about
burning the body because maybe Dan told her about the
(45:36):
incinerator that was located in a building behind the theater, right,
And the theater was located on a military base, and
the building behind the theater was in fact a military hospital,
and oftentimes are brave soldiers didn't come back in one piece,
and their body parts were sent to the morgue and
(45:59):
in fact incinerated. And there was this incinerator that Jeff Hathcock,
who was the owner of the theater at Liberty Theater
at the time, did show Dan this. He Dan was
always fascinated with the macabre, and and I think it
was Halloween when he gave him a tour of the
morgue and pointed out the incinerator. So they obviously had
(46:19):
this conversation. Because the idea of suggesting to burn the
body makes me feel like she knew she knew about
the incinerator. She went to visit the theater many times,
but certainly the one visit that stands out to me
is the visit that she and Dan made two nights
before the murders. So all of this makes sense, and
(46:42):
your story makes sense. So one morning she gets a
call and she I think I was in the shower.
She's very upsetting at what's going on, and she said,
the police want to talk to me again. This was
March because they were most of Pina. So she said, well,
(47:03):
they're coming here. I said, okay. So they came and
they met her in the parking lot and I walked
down with her and they said you you can't be here,
they to you. Yeah, So I walked to the other
side of the parking lot. Okay, whatever, and they were
talking to her and talking to her forever. I'm thinking,
I gotta check out, and I look over and one
(47:24):
of them reaches into his pocket and pulls out rubber gloves,
and then he reached another public and he's doing a
freaking DNA swab in her mouth in the middle of
the parking lot. You know, I'm oh, my god, what
the hell? So after they left us, what what was
that all about? She said, well, there's a box of evidence,
and they keep asking me if there's any way my
DNA could be in that box, and I told them no.
(47:46):
So they asked if they could do a DNA swab
that was me thinking they think she has something to
do with this. But you had never contacted the authorities.
Why why did you feel like you didn't want to
I didn't know anything. Well, I told you to burn
the body is a big I can't that's not going
(48:09):
to be admissible anywhere. There's nothing I can do with him. Yeah,
but you should. I don't know. I would have thought
you would have let them decide that. I would think
that you would want to tell somebody, but you know
you didn't want to tell, maybe because you still wanted
to date her. Well, is that the truth? Are we
getting the truth? I wanted to know. I wanted to know.
(48:31):
I wanted to know. You wanted to know before you
were absolute and you felt it might take a few
more times. Yeah, And look, if I go to the
police and say, hey, this girl was drunk and she
said this, they're gonna go, wow, that's interesting. What they
canna do with it? You just didn't You didn't think
it was enough. No, it's it's not even when I
(48:52):
when I did tell the police, but I was gonna say,
you did at something and tell the police. So let's
talk about that. When did that? Because didn't you go
to see them in Costa Mesa. They came and met me. Yeah,
at the Starbucks across the street from from Medival times.
Now did they come to me after they saw you
march at at that motel? Yeah, it was much later
(49:13):
than that, so they knew you existed and they want
to learn more. So what did they ask you? How
was that exchange? I told them that that was what
I led with because I'm like, you know, she has
something to do with it. She at least the second murder,
because she knew before the second murder that the first
murder had taken place, or else she couldn't have told
(49:33):
him to burn the body. They called actually the d
A after they met with you and said we've got
it now, I mean this, this has got to be
the thing that takes us over the top here that
we can charge you with murder. And he said no,
because you were an X and maybe you had an
AX to grind and yeah, so that I didn't think
that it's gonna be, he said. She said she had
(49:54):
never said such a thing. You know, right, are you're
gonna get anywhere with that? But I mean, if all
of your other stories are pretty accurate and pan out,
why would you make this one up? Right, from everything
I gathered from all the interviews I did with people
that knew Rachel, they said she had a wild jealous streak.
(50:18):
So this is just a theory. But I did speak
with Dave Bernhard, who was a neighbor at the Camden
martiniques and someone that hung out with Dan and Rachel
quite a bit up until the murders, and he did
share with me that he cared deeply for Julie. He
did have a huge crush on Rachel. He didn't feel
like it was necessarily going anywhere, that it might have been,
(50:41):
you know, a one sided thing, but he definitely wanted
to nail her, just wasn't going anywhere. But Julie he
really cared about. He said that really developed from a friendship,
like she was a genuine person and he really cared
about her. They ended up consummating that relationship two nights
before she was and I have to wonder if somehow
(51:08):
Dave had a conversation with Rachel about that, because he
really did want to have a relationship with Rachel, and
I think that might have been a way to make
her jealous, and maybe that's how we thought he could
get her and Rachel finding out about that right, because
Rachel was the kind of person that didn't want any
(51:28):
other woman to get any kind of attention, and she
wanted Dave's attention, but she wanted to have it under
her control on her terms, and so she would do
things in front of Dave at his Taco Tuesday party
like watch this, Watch this, I'm going to get Daniel
to kiss another guy, and I'm going to tell him
I'm not going to go home and have sex with
him unless you know, and he would do it and
(51:50):
actually told she told you that so too. Yeah, And
so I'm just wondering if Dave Barnhard thought I'll give
her a little bit of her own medicine, and so
A four, I'm gonna tell her I have this relationship
with Julie. And you know, it's a theory. It might
not be the way it really happened, but knowing Rachel,
(52:11):
after speaking to people like yourself who knew her firsthand,
it just seems like it would be something that would
incite a target. And if you're a murdering one, why
not to And and Julie was like, I mean, sadly,
as her mother said in court. I mean she was
a prop or actually was a brother Taka that said
(52:32):
that on the Witnes stand, you killed my sister so
that she could be a prop in your sick, demented play,
you know, and that's the truth. That's really poorly written play.
I'm convinced that she helped plan the whole thing at
(52:52):
a minimum, probably for kicks, was involved with some of it.
But I don't under stand why he doesn't rollover on her,
why he doesn't tell this story. I don't get it.
I think that the reason for that is that he's
(53:12):
protecting his brother Tim Ah. Okay, Tim, Tim's involved, but
that's another She went to live with Tim for a
while though after the murders, are for about a week
at the most, his girlfriend at the time, and that
did not make Lisa any happier. For sure. She she
(53:37):
did not like Rachel, didn't care for her. And but
Tim said to me he never saw anybody light a
pipe with you know, for the crystal meth better. I
mean he said she was just an old pro. I
mean usually if you've never done it before, it kind
of involved yes, and he said, not her, Yeah, so
that just no, they're in fact, he said to me
(54:00):
that if she speaks out and says anything, that if
if if he goes down, she's going down, and that
you know, told me a lot. Is he facing any
charges at all? He got a sweet deal he got
he did. He got it because prosecutors were worried that
the defense counsel was going to come up with an
(54:22):
insanity defense, and so they wanted Tim to say that
there was nothing there in his past, that they had
this sort of bucolic life and and there was never
any issues, mental issues, and and so they wanted to
make sure that they won this capital case, and so
they were willing to cut him a deal. And and he's, uh,
(54:46):
he's laughing all the way. So but he feels like
he got away with he got away with it, and
now we have to see what she gets away with.
And I think that you know, they are that is
the reason why he has not said anything against her.
I'm I'm pretty well, it seems like a pretty slam
dunk case. I know there is no such thing, but
(55:08):
she blatantly lied and hopefully they'll, hopefully they can get
her for at least that. Stay tuned. Yeah, exactly, if
you could sum up in one statement, what you'd like
listeners to know about how you feel about Rachel Buffett.
(55:31):
I sit here with you and we laugh a lot,
because I laugh a lot, that's just my nature, and
you're charming and funny. There's really nothing funny about it, Um,
and I I also laugh on him. Embarrassed. I'm embarrassed
(55:52):
that that I didn't see through it sooner. I'm embarrassed
that I had stopped seeing her completely once I even
began to think it was possible. UM. So I deal
with that by laughing a lot. But it's obviously about
as serious as it gets. And I love that you
(56:12):
have the relationship that you do with Um Sam's father,
and I'm probably with Julie's parents as well. And the
last thing the world I would want is for them
to hear this and go, what are they're laughing about?
It's not funny, and it's not. And I I've met
(56:39):
so many people in my life. I have been an
actor almost my whole life, and just people of every description,
people of every every background, every every everything. There's so
many different people. She is the single only person I've
ever met that I think and we already talked about
(57:02):
my feeling about religion. She is evil. It's like she's
an empty vessel. There's no soul, there's no compassion, there's
no anything except ego and and a quest. It is
(57:27):
a quest. It's a quest to do evil. It would
it's amazing to me to manipulate people to be the
center of attention, which all actors want to be the
center of attention. That's why I'm sitting here with you.
I want to be the center of attention. I won't
kill somebody for it. I won't steal and laugh about
(57:49):
it to someone who doesn't like stealing. I mean, it's
she's she's evil. I don't know. That's all I can say.
And I'm embara, and I apologize to anyone who would
be offended by that. Well, I I feel like I
could speak for Steve Hair at this moment. I know
(58:10):
he would appreciate what you're saying. He also, though, finds
humor in life to survive. I mean his sometimes I
feel so guilty when he's making me laugh and I
think I shouldn't be laughing, But he said, if you
don't laugh, and you don't make me laugh, and then
I'm really there's nothing left. Then I'm dead and so
(58:30):
I think he feels humor is a panacea for for
the pain he lives with on a daily basis. And
Daniel Wozniak and if in fact she was involved with
these murders, Rachel Buffett and whoever else was involved with
these martyrs took away his life, took away the kibi
she's life. And poor Raquel Hair says, to this day
(58:55):
she prays, she prays for Daniel Wozniac, which is truly extraordinary,
but that's that's the woman she is. And so I
just want to thank you for all of them to
come on today and be so honest and yeah we laugh,
but that's okay too. Thank you, thank you. On our
(59:25):
next episode of Sleuth, we continue our exclusive interview with
Rachel Buffett's former boyfriend, Scott Erett, who had so many
colorful memories of his two year relationship with the Disney
princess that he called into Sleuth and shared additional bizarre
experiences he had with the girl he met at medieval
times where he and Rachel both worked. You can't make
(59:47):
up what you will soon hear, because reality can be
stranger than fiction. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth,
share it with a friend and be sure to leave
a rating view. Follow Sleuth on iHeart Radio, or subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss
an episode.
Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.
When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful.
And I said, no, no, you didn't think about what
I should have done or what I could have done.
You said, you told me to burn the body. Did
(00:23):
you think I was Dan? Last night? Welcome to Sleuth.
I'm Linda Sawyer. That chilling moment you just heard happened
between Rachel Buffett and her then boyfriend Scott Arrett, who
(00:45):
spent two years with Rachel. Only months after Dan Wozniak's
arrest for murder. In an exclusive interview, Scott sat down
with us to talk about his time with Rachel. So
I wanted to first sort of recall when we first met.
And I remember you live pretty far from here, right
(01:08):
almost two hours out in the high desert. And I
remember renting my little orange juice canned car, and I
think I was driving through what they called the grape
Vine or something like that before that. But you're on
the fourteen, which is just a windswept high desert. Oh
my gosh. All I remember is white knuckles and I'm like,
why is this car moving into other lanes? And I'm
(01:29):
not asking it to do. Am I going to make
it a lie? And then it got there is like
this for this New York City girl is like making
County Line with those tumbleweeds. It is. I live in Maybury, RFD.
That's what it's like. Yeah, it's a very odd place,
but I like it. So I'm like, well, you know,
I have to talk to Rachel Buffett's ex boyfriend, who
(01:51):
who who knows it all? Who heard it all and
saw it all? Right? So I said, it's it's gonna
be worth it, And eight hours later it was yeah, yeah, was.
We had a good time, though, we did. We talked
for a long time. We certainly we closed down the
coffee shop. I think we opened it and closed it. Right. Yeah.
Every once in a while my mouth would drop, but
I pull it back out. Yeah, well you made me.
(02:14):
I mean I started because I hadn't thought about it
in a while, and I start talking about it, and
I realized just how bizarre it sounds when you say
it out loud and when someone's typing it into their computer. Yeah,
when you're just in the middle of it, just all
this one thing, But when when you're telling on someone
who's who's typing it you're going do I say that? Well, yeah,
(02:34):
and then she says, hey, how about come on come
on my podcast the Country. Sure, yeah, well but I
love what you're doing, so I think it's a good idea,
So somebody has to It's incredible to me that the most,
the most they can charge you with is accessory after
the fact. Well, we have been speaking to quite a
(02:57):
few people and you or I've tried to pose the question,
you know, is it possible that she didn't know that
she was duped, which is what she's saying, and there
is just not one Yes, there's like, oh god, no,
have you talked to her mother? No? But I've certainly
made my pleasantries, but they pretty much, I think at
(03:19):
this point try to keep to themselves, probably smarter well,
certainly after Dr Phil I think she even said, you
know something, because Steve Hair, who's the father of Sam,
said to her, I'd appreciate if you'd stopped doing interviews
and wait till the trial, because if you're innocent, let's
have the justice system decide that. And she said, maybe
I have made a mistake coming on the show. You
(03:41):
think sort of unraveled. I'd love to know your impressions
because you did say you saw her on the show. Um,
it was a typical performance. It was the big dough
eyes and the Disney Prince's head nods and the how
dare you think us of me? And we're talking about
two dead people and families that are grieving, and still
she managed to make the show all about her, which
(04:02):
tells you a lot right there. And she's the victim,
not the dead people, not the family the dead people,
but she's the victim. And she even referenced that, and
I think she felt like she was being gracious when
she said, listen, I'm a victim, but I know I
come after Julia and probably even the victims families. It's like, oh,
(04:23):
you know, you're really figuring where you are on it?
How gracious? How how you know? Extraordinary that it's like
pure psychotic narcissism. It's right there on display. I know
that I'm not the main victim. Sam and Julie are
the main victims, and then I think even secondary would
be their families. I'm after all that. I realized that,
(04:44):
and that's why that's why I didn't want to come
out in the limelight before two and a half years ago.
I tried to keep it to myself and tried to
work through it and try and do my own little
hillieling process or whatever. Let's talk about the church in
Christianity and how it plays such a part in this
in the family, in the Buffett family, and certainly you
(05:06):
know firsthand. I mean, I think one of our interviews,
Daniel Hulkyard, who was a friend of Dan Wozniak, said
that she hides behind her faith. Would you agree with
that statement. She didn't just hide behind it, she uses it.
It's it's it's brilliant. I saw a meme the other
day that made me think of her, and it says
(05:27):
something about never trust someone who can just confess their
crimes to their imaginary friend once a week. And I thought,
there you go, you know, I mean, the whole story
with her father and the hookers and the bankrupting the
family and then getting angry with her mother because she
was hurt by it. I'm telling her, I've been forgiven.
You need to get over it. Did he really say
(05:49):
that in your presence? No? No, no, Rachel told me
about it. Her mother told me about it. But that's
how they feel. Once once got forgives you, you're good
to go. In fact, I think you even said to
me when we met that Monday through Saturday, do whatever
you want, but as long as you ask for forgiveness
(06:11):
on Sunday. Well I think I told you. I think
she sees the Ten Commandments as a bucket list, and
she's getting through it really well. I mean, you know,
she's crossing him off that list one at a time,
and it's okay because on Sunday goes sorry and then
you can start all over again. I've asked this of
people that you know, are they're born again or really
(06:32):
Christianity is is a you know, certainly a backbone of
their livelihood. And I'm like this whole forgiveness stuff like
God forgives you, God forgives everyone on death row and
every so you could just do whatever you want and
then just say God forgive me. And the person said
to me, but you have to mean it. And I
think if you're psychotic enough, you can do it, confess
(06:55):
it and mean it and then do it again. I mean,
why not you know, um that long before anybody was murdered, she,
you know, a thief like nobody's business for for fun,
just steal things for fun, And how you can be
(07:15):
the alter religious person and think it's fun to see
how much crap you can walk out of Walmart with
stuffed in your clothing is bizarre to me. I know.
I've had interviews with several of her friends that she
literally stole on pretty much a daily basis. I mean,
whether it was food, alcohol, clothes, furniture in their house.
(07:38):
I mean one of the gals who was supposed to
be in her wedding party said she even stole her
bridesmaid's dresses. In her wedding dress, I'm like, how do
you do that? I mean, she's a tiny thing. Where
did she fit it? I don't know. She's very ingenious.
I was at Walmart with her one time and she
told me she was going to steal some makeup and
I said, no, no, not not, not while I'm here.
(08:00):
You can do whatever you want her, but if you
need makeup, I'll buy it for you. I'll buy it. Well, no,
I don't need it, It's okay. So we get up
to the checkout stand and she says, oh, I forgot something,
and I thought, oh no, and she runs back to
the makeup section, but she came back with this little
thing of like perfumer, nailpolo something something in an in
a box and so I took it out of her
hand and put it on the thing and I'm paid
(08:21):
for it, you know. And we got into the car
and she started just like giggling minightly. I'm like what.
And she opened the box and said, this is a
box for a five dollar one and I put this
twenty one in the box. And she was so proud
of herself. Wow. And I said, I was going to
pay for it. What difference does it mean? But it
was it was the thrill of doing it. It's the thrill.
(08:42):
It's the adventure of violating the Ten commandments. I swear
your bucket list, it's her bucket list. One of uh,
one of her friends, one of their mutual friends that
they had met recently, a gentleman by the name of
Chris Williams, who was the person that loaned them the
money to stave off the eviction week of the murders.
And he's got a story himself. But uh, he met
(09:05):
with them the night before. They invited him over it
for like barbecuing mineral sausages whatever, and he said that
he felt as if there was this feeling of We've
got to know what the next level of challenge in
our lives feels like. We need to know what it
feels like to to maybe what it feels like to
(09:27):
murder someone. And the reason he said that was he
said that Dan had recited on the deck. Uh this,
I don't know if you know this movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway,
it's a it's based on a Patricia Highsmith book who
sort of was the equivalent of Stephen King in Europe,
and she does all these kind of creepy stories and
and the lead in the movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley
(09:51):
was played by Matt Damon and that was Dan's favorite
movie role. And in front of Chris Williams, Dan starts
reciting seeing as the character of Tom Ripley, who steals
people's identities and then when they figure out who he is,
he kills them. So there's Daniel reciting, you know, word
(10:13):
for word scenes as if he's that Matt Damon character,
and then he sings this song, this beautiful Aria, word
for word, and literally Chris said, I was chilled to
the bone because at that moment, sam Hair leans over
his deck and he said, hey, you know, not get
off down there. You guys having some fun, and and
Daniel's like, come on down, Sam, and it's like, no,
(10:33):
I'm going to go to bed, but I'll see in
the morning. And he goes, Okay, you know, see you tomorrow.
Thanks for helping me, Like, because Sam, that was the
day that Sam he had arranged for tomorrow was the
go help him move in the in the theater, and
that was the day Dan murdered Sam. Yeah, so he's
like a sorrow how And honestly, when that whole scene
(10:55):
is is you know, told to me, I got chills
because right, I'm mean life imitating art, Like it's just
so bizarre. And and that's person said to me, I
just got the feeling like they wanted to know. They
needed to know the next level of crazy. They needed
to know what it felt like to kill someone, you know.
So it sort of falls in line with a lot
(11:16):
of what you told me about her. Are your experiences
with her? That's really creepy? Um, there is I think
there's a there's a feeling of superiority. Um because well,
first of all, you know, God's on her side, so
how can you beat that? That's pretty perfect by it.
So and there's that feeling of she loves to manipulate
(11:39):
and see what she can get people to do that's
outside their comfort zone. And so I think she generally,
um in partners, picks people that she thinks she's going
to be able to manipulate like that. She made a
mistake with me. It didn't work. But and if you
work for your five other wives, thank you, thank you.
Let's just bring that up. Why don't we? No, it
(12:00):
didn't because I'm a little strong world. Um, but the
manipulation thing, she would play weird manipulation games, weird weird,
weird stuff. I remember. I remember going to the movies
once and it was like fifteen minutes before we even
so we bought our tickets and we're sitting on these
stairs out of the movie theater and all of a sudden,
(12:21):
I don't know where, she says to me, I've and
she would say this stuff with a straight face, and
that she would she would look at you with and say,
I've decided that my walk with Jesus isn't strong enough,
and so we need to stop having sex because it's
against my religion. So at that I didn't know that
(12:41):
there was a religion that was against sex. Well, you know,
we weren't married, so it was it was a horrible sin.
I was getting laid on a regular basis by someone
half my age, so I might die in between. There's
a risk everything. I can't believe tell you these things. Okay,
(13:02):
this is amateur psychology, and who knows. But she was
so controlled growing up. I've never heard of people editing
the bad parts out of Disney cartoons. But her parents
wouldn't let them wauch a movie unless they had gone
through and taken out anything they didn't like in like Bambi.
I was just gonna say, like baby taking a shower.
(13:23):
I don't know they would take out anything with it.
So she and she wasn't not to go to school,
and she wasn't how to play with the kids in
the neighborhood, and she wasn't, you know, because they weren't
good Christians, so I think in her only book. So
then she decided to go to college, and I think
her parents weren't very fond of this idea, but she
(13:44):
wanted to do it. So she went to the local
community college, and all of a sudden, the world opened
up and she realized, oh my god, I'm pretty, I
can be sexy, I can hold my liquor and I
can and she just think she should power. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Guys,
(14:05):
you're panting and looking at her, and she Okay, I've
got this power, and she learned to use it. And
when she jumped, she jumped. I mean that's seriously, That's
when the ten Commands became, not not the ten Commandments,
but the bucket list that was, I can get away
with anything. Her friends at school at college said that
(14:27):
she started to smoke because she felt like because she
was homeschooled, she really didn't know how she could relate
to other people in a social setting, and so she
thought that made her look cool, and the same thing
with the drugs, like I'm going to be cool now
because I want everybody like me, or at least feel
like I belong. And part of that, I think is,
(14:49):
you know, the isolation of homeschooling and and what that
does to your own psyche. You know, we really haven't
had the chance to, you know, exchange and be a
part of a regular day life of a kid. Yeah,
or find out who you are and what you what
you like and don't like because the only thing you
have is what's spoon fed to you by you're slightly
(15:12):
insane parents. I believe that you told me a story
that she shared with you about this a gay student
at the college. Tell us, tell tell us about it.
I don't know a lot about it. I know she
she gets a great kick and a giggle out of
the fact that there was this gay kid and she
(15:33):
talked to him into having sex with her so that
she could show me wasn't gay, or so that she
could just so that she could do it again. Manipulation.
I don't know. Maybe if I can get this gay
kid to have sex with me, that's an accomplishment, and
she did. There's more to the story. I heard from
her boyfriend at the time in college where she came back,
(15:56):
that she took him. She took him side of the
rehearsal space they were in a in a show together,
and brought him back to I guess the dorm apartment whatever.
And they did, in fact have got conjugal visit, but
it didn't go so well. And supposedly she came back
to set and ridiculed him in front of the cast
(16:17):
to the point where he left the school. That would
make sense. Yeah, I mean, well, he's gay and that's
she's religious. That's wrong, you know, well because God, because
it's murder, okay, but being gay that it's ungodly. Yeah,
(16:38):
you know, I have to wonder when you have a
family that's so structured and the whole idea of faith
and leading the good life of a Christian is just
permeates their their everyday existence. Right. But yet she finds
out that the reason why they're not well off and
quite frankly, always struggling for money is because the father's
(17:00):
spending his paychecks on prostitutes and gambling. That's got to
make you hate your father, or hate man, or or
hate the idea of being poor because of a man.
Do you feel like that in some way had some
bearing on some of her behavior and choice. I think
that rose her father up a few notches in her eyes, really,
(17:22):
how so, because she has no respect for anybody or
anything normal. So I think her father doing that made
her go, cool, look what he's doing, because she thinks
her mom's a moron, Because her mother just is nothing
but Jesus all day long. I mean, there's posted notes
all over the house, and the Jesus pillows and Jesus
(17:45):
did this and pictures on the wall, and her dad said,
enough of that, I'm going to go have fun. And
I think she liked that. I think she respects. So
the rebellious act is what she approved of. Yeah, yeah that. Yeah.
Now didn't he at one point actually have an extra
marital affair that Marian found out that tell us about
How did you learn about that? Um? She told me
about it, and she said that her mother found notes
(18:07):
in the glove box or someplace something like that, and
but she she was never angry with him. She wasn't like,
I can't believe he would do something like that. She
were just talking about that's what my dad did. Not
my mother is really upset. Uh, let's go steal something,
you know. It was just a matter of fact. Yeah,
I didn't really bother her. So if it didn't have
(18:29):
to do with her, it didn't bother her. How did
you first meet Rachel Buffett Um? I was working at
Medieval Times and uh, she came to work at Medival
Times as a princess um and I had been dating
one of the other princesses and uh that was falling apart,
(18:49):
and then Rachel came worked this. So I called her
one night and said, do you want to get together
and have coffee or something? And she said she was
out with her brother or her brothers, I don't forget what,
but when they get back. Sure. So she met me
at a coffee shop, um, down here in Orange County
because it was a long drive home for me, so
I would often stay down here. And we sat there
(19:10):
talking forever, and I remember we were talking about acting.
We were talking about medival time, so what it was
our place it is? And we were talking about uh,
she had worked for Disney, what it was our place
that was? And just as we were getting ready to
part for the evening, she says to me, oh, by
the way, just you should know that if you're going
(19:31):
to become friends with me that, um, you may be
investigated by the FBI and and and polices, police forces
and things like this. And I said, well, why is that?
She's well, I had something happened, I said, what did
you do, sud No, I didn't do anything, but my
ex fiance did something and I don't I don't want
(19:52):
to talk about it, but just so you know that
that could happen, I said, okay. So good night. We laughed.
So let me started seeing each other more, and I
kept asking, what what is it? What? What did he does?
The drug dealer? No, no, no, no, what what what
does it? And finally didn't know. I had no idea.
(20:14):
And finally with that, I said, so, come on about
your experiency. What is he like? An AX murder or what?
And her face her and a D shades have read
and she said, we need to talk, and I okay,
and I'm thinking, oh my god, he's an AX murder.
So he met for dinner. She told me the whole
her version of the whole story, and my job was
on the ground, I thought, and it works. I thought, oh,
(20:38):
your poor thing, Oh my god, that that she was
engaged to be married to this guy, and that nothing
he was leading a complete double life, and everything he
said was a lie, and she believed it all because
she was madly in love with him. And then all
(20:59):
of us sudden he had murdered her friends and she
couldn't believe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible.
That lasted for a while, and the more we talked
and the more I learned, the more I realized that
story isn't quite the way it happened. There's a little
more to it than that. And oh my god, I
(21:20):
think you killed people. Pardon me, you know, but it happens.
So because honestly, she is can be pretty good at
that Disney princess, big blue eyed, looking up at you
with all the innocence in the world. For a while,
(21:42):
I think in passing it works. But when you start
to see the pattern and you start to put together
with all the other stuff, and you go, oh, this
is and it works for like a short stint, a
sound bite that if you're on anything longer, like a
Dr Phil show. Eventually, when she had her press conference
after when she was arrested November, when she was finally
(22:04):
released and they had a little press conference in front
of the jail and and uh, you know, she was
batting away there and just you know, oh my gosh,
I'm innocent. And Noah was there, you know, caressing her.
And that's as we'll talk about that in a minute.
But that evening she was telling friends I've interviewed those
(22:24):
friends and they and that she said to instead of
being like just for Loren that you know, you're about
to marry this psychotic right, instead she's telling all her friends.
Do you hear them? They're calling me an actress? Oh
my god. Yeah, that's was her overwriting statement about all
(22:45):
of the press that she was getting from that day
because now she's famous, right wow. And even when she
was on Dr Phil, he made some comment about you
know that sounds of rehearse. Now you are an actress,
so we have to be aware of that, and you
might be a very good actress that she recoiled like
in this like kitten like you know, posture, just smiling
(23:06):
ear to ear like That's all we're talking about here, right,
is that that you could be a good actress. You know,
That's that's really not the that's not the headline, right,
you know, but you're talking about her, so it's good.
As long as you're talking about her, it's all good.
It's all wonderful. So after you heard that story or
(23:28):
what you thought was the real story, you you felt
for her. Yeah, I mean she was a victim in
all this, you know, and tragic and horrible. Does someone
so young and pretty and cute and just innocent and
sweet would be subjected to this horrible murdering? I mean
I bought it, and I think I'm a pretty shrewd guy,
(23:52):
but I'm not sure I was thinking properly. So I
bought it. I thought, wow, so you were going to, yeah,
be her protector and sure that you know, there's a
there's a whole wonderful world out there, come out, ride horses,
(24:12):
have a good time. Yeah. So it's just slowly. It
was started with the stealing, and started with the drinking,
and then the stealing stuff, and then the pride in
in the strangest things. At one point we were just
casually dating. At this point, she got all excited because
(24:35):
she gets a free trip to Vegas. I said, how
are you getting a free trip to Vegas? And there
was some guy was gonna take her to Vegas. Yeah yeah,
And I said, well that's not quite free. I don't
think he's taken it there for free. Well, you know,
we'll see what happens. I don't have to do anything.
So she goes to and we're texting and she took
(24:55):
her friend along on her friend is Kelly is just
another bizarre Is that Kelly Fleming? I don't know her
real name, like Kerosene Kelly. I think that's Kelly Fleming
And she's man, what um, just a huge enabler, huge
enabler and has some strange she she would take her
(25:21):
to lesbian clubs. Yeah, and Rachel insisted, well, she's not gay.
I said, why, why why would she be taking you
to lesbian clubs? Well, just I mean to show off.
So that's why it didn't make any sense. And now
I'm going to think, well, maybe she's not the sweet
(25:42):
and maybe she's just remarkably stupid. And then I slowly realized, no,
she's not stupid either. She liked being shown on because
it was all about her. So her friend, who insists
to her, look, I am not gay. I just want
to take you to this club and show you off
as my girlfriend will pretend it's like the trophy girl,
(26:06):
the trophy wife. Yeah, I don't know. It was the
most bizarre. So she takes her with her to Vegas.
I don't think this guy thinks he's got it made.
Now he's gonna go home. Probably did. So we're taking
and she texted something to me about, well, you know,
I had to thank him last night. What what are
you a prostitute? This is the most bizarre thing. So
(26:29):
she comes back and she tells me I've been in
tears for two days. I can't believe you would think
that of me. I said, wait a minute. You went
to Vegas with some guy, you said, kind of creep
you out, but you had sex with him in exchange
for being taken to Vegas. And you're upset that someone
(26:51):
would consider that prostitution. Are you serious? So there's a
preamble to that story. Okay, well I'd love to know
the preamble to that story. James Mulligan told me that,
you know, he's a fantastic artist. I mean, truly does
all this Disney art. And and I guess one of
his clients was a church, a local church, and he
(27:13):
they asked him to do the like the Nativity scene
in one of the walls on the on the church.
And so he's, you know, painting the whole scene, the
whole Nativity, Baby Jesus and all. And and she walks
in with a fifth of vodka. And she walks down
the aisle and what heads over to him? And he said,
(27:36):
before he knew it, there she was down on him
doing a little a little number that he said, I
did color outside of the lines. At that point, you know,
I'm just the juxtaposition of this, you know, very religious scene, right,
one of the most religious scenes. And there she is
(28:00):
doing what she's doing. I said, oh my gosh, Well
the dichotomy is he's not lost, it's okay. She She's
at my place one night and she wakes up. It's
probably two or three in the morning, and she says,
I feel an evil presence. And by that time I
(28:21):
was starting to think maybe it's you. So I feel
an evil presence. I said, I'm sorry. What would she
like to do about it? And she said, do you
mind how I put on some praise music? And I said,
I think I'm fresh out of praise music. I don't
think I am. She said, well, I'm getting on your computer.
I said, go ahead, whatever, you go ahead. She gets
(28:41):
up and she goes to my laptop and she somehow
hooks up the thing and next thing I know, you know,
the laptops. Our God is an awesome God, he reads,
and she climbs back in bed and goes down. I mean,
we have sex to our God is an awesome God.
I guess that's what she needs. That's it gets her going.
(29:03):
My word, nothing makes you hot like Jesus. I don't know,
it's just bizarre. It's bizarre. Didn't you tell me? Also
you had to cover up? Oh yeah, that was another
she said. And she just comes out to this stuff
out of nowhere. She says to me, I can't come
out to your home anymore. At this one, she was
coming out very regularly, and I said, hey, why not?
(29:27):
She said, well, you have dragons all over the place,
and I like medieval stuff, so I've got different like
ceramic and the resident little dragon sculpture of things. You know, well,
she said, I said, well, what what does that have
to do anything? She said, well, they represent Satan. Know,
(29:47):
they represent dragons. What are you talking about? She said, well,
dragon dragons are often used to represent Satan because they're
serpent like. And said, okay, well these don't these represent
medieval you know, n slang dragons that it's just dragons.
It's it's okay, But no, I can't come out there anymore.
I said, okay. So I had some little dragons coming
(30:10):
and some of these little swords. So I put the
little swords by the little dragon. Said there, I've killed
all the dragons. Can you come out now? And she says, no,
you have to. You have to take them on down
I said, well, I'm not gonna take them down. So
that's that's the end of that. And about two days
later she said, are you going to take me home
after the show? I said, they're dragons. There'll be dragons
out there, and she said it's okay. I said, okay,
(30:31):
good bizarre bizarre stuff and everything relates back to God,
to Jesus, to religion, to the whole upbringing that she
straight so far from ambassardized so much, but she she
hangs onto it. Well, she pulls it back in when
(30:53):
she needs it, right, yeah, oh yeah, well yeah. She
her current boyfriend worked with us at the castle. All
three of us worked at medival times, and he's a
pastor son, and they would quote scripture to each other
and they would talk about Billy Elliot. He shows up
in court a lot. He shows up with like scriptures,
(31:14):
needle pointed in his shirt. Yeah, well, you know he's
a good Christian, he said. He has some interesting tattoos. Yeah,
he's got some lovely and now I'm not often alone
with men when they're naked, but um, at medival times,
everyone kind of gets dressed in the same area. He's
got some lovely nipple piercings and uh and his crotch
(31:37):
reads raw Dog. Editor's note. I had no idea what
raw Dog meant, but my editor sure did. Well, it's
locker room talk. It's a guy who has sex without
a condom. Really, yeah, that's it. So I mean, but
it's I think it says raw dog. For Jesus, No,
(31:59):
I'm just kidding. It doesn't say that. So there was
a point in time in her life where she was
heavily involved in drugs, and it was certainly during the
times of the murder and soon after the murders that
she uh, you know, she was getting getting crystal meth
and ecstasy from all of her her friends. And I
don't know if she shared that with you or not,
but that was definitely a part of their life. Yeah,
(32:22):
she talked about it. Yeah, she talked about the numb
feeling and how much she liked the numb feeling. And
and I remember that stuck in my because she was
talking about she was almost intimating that you could do
anything while you're feeling like that because you don't have
(32:42):
any feelings of responsibility or any any guilt, any anything.
And I'm thinking, was that when you planned this stuff
then did it all make sense while you were that
messed up? You know, I don't know because I don't understand, right,
I don't get it. But I mean, I've been told
by people. I've I've never done these drugs either, but
(33:03):
I've been told by people when you are on crystal meth,
you could murder your own grandmother. You know, I mean
that you have you have no soul anymore. You just
don't care, Like you said that, there's just no remorse,
there's no nothing, there's no your numb and and what's
amazing to me is as numb as she is in
everyday life, I can't imagine how empty she would be
(33:29):
with some chemical help. I mean, that's really scary, it
really is. That's a frightening thing, you know. You I
think you've said to me before something about her eyes.
There's nothing there. I honestly, I the last the last
few months of dating were more like research because I
thought I should write a screenplay about this, and I
(33:51):
was gonna call it empty because she is soulless. You
can look at it and there's nothing there. They might
light up if you're talking about something she's excited about
at the moment that about her. But for the most part,
they're they're empty. There's nothing there, and that's normal. That's
when she's sober so and you can see it. You
(34:13):
can see it in the interviews. You know what you
can see in a Disney cartoon. Obviously, there's nothing there.
It's it's a one dimensional there. It is. That's what
they look like. And it fools you for a minute
because it looks like a Disney cartoon. But look at
a closer realized this is a live, actual human being
and it looks like a one dimensional Disney cartoon. And
(34:34):
she was a she was she was a Disney princess.
She had sex with Daniel in the shell, know aerial
shell at Disneyland. She was very proud of that, very
proud of that. And she also stole from there. She
was bad about that because there's such security there, but
somehow she managed. That's what her boyfriend at the time,
(34:55):
Kyle Rubelle, was saying that. You know, he said the
same thing, I'll pay for it, don't steal it. And
yet she went off with a cousin of hers and
and came back all giggly because she was so proud
of herself. Yeah, yeah, that's quite the accomplishment. Amazing, right, Yeah, totally.
(35:15):
She also has an interesting relationship with her brother Noah.
That's one way to put it. Yeah, it's a sick relationship.
It really is. Tell us why you think so? Um, God,
several several things. One of them is the the codependency
when it comes to drinking. And finally, at one point
(35:37):
I told her, look, I'm not ever going to meet
you in a bar again. This is never gonna happen again,
so I'm not doing it. So that's it. And one
night I get out of work. She wasn't working as
a princess that night, I was working at the castle.
I got out and there are all these messages from her,
please come to be. My brother's in trouble. I need help.
So I called her and said where are you? When
she named the bar and I said, no, I told
(35:59):
you I'm not coming to the bar. So I don't
know what to do. He's crazy. I said, I'll come
get you out of the bar, but I'm not hanging around,
and she said okay. So I went over there and
there she sits with Noah and he's crying and she's
crying and they're both just sloppy drunk, and I said, okay, well,
(36:20):
let's go and we'll talk about it. So what is this?
So we got I get him out to my car
and I said, what is going on? Well, Noah's girlfriend
had gotten pregnant. So he's trying to decide whether a
really sharp kick in the stomach we'll take care of it,
or if he needs to actually push her down some stairs.
(36:40):
Or Rachel's great idea, which is she can call I
think it was Kelly and get a whole box of
the Morning After pills and then grind those up and
put it in her food and oh dear on that stuff,
and surely that would cause her to spontaneously aboard. So
and I said, well, okay, this whole thing is nuts.
(37:02):
I mean, where would you even get that? Rachel's Kelly,
and she brought him over. Did you have them now? Yes?
And I said no, have you even talked to her yet? Well,
she called me and she said she was pregny. I said,
but have you talked her about what she wants to do?
Maybe she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy.
(37:23):
Maybe it's all okay, maybe it's shouldn't you find that
out first? And Rachel's just well, he's really upset and
he just found out about this, and I said, well,
don't humor him. For christ sake, you said about killing somebody.
What is wrong with you? So I took him home
and took her back to my place and said, this
is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And the next day
(37:46):
the girl and Noah talked and she said, you know,
I don't want to have a baby, and he said, okay,
well we'll take care of it. That that was it.
But he's getting ready to kill her. What the he?
How is that a plan? Even? How was that even planed? B?
I don't know plan B. That's very good. I saw
what she did there. So and then shortly after so
(38:09):
this got me talking about Noah more because now I'm
I'm just fanded. And then she starts, you go deep, well,
so to speak, and she starts talking about how small
Noah's penis is. And after the third or fourth reference,
I said, how do you know? And she said, I quote,
(38:32):
somebody's got to teach him what to do with it.
Did you infer that she had sex with her brother
from that statement? Yeah? Pretty strongly? Yeah? Yeah? And did
she sort of give you that indication that she did
have sex. What was she teaching him? I think so, yeah,
because who better than her? She's brilliant. She really said that,
(38:56):
That's what she said. Then she refused to discuss it anymore.
So did you follow up with are you telling me
that you've had oh? Yeah, yeah, and she said, I
don't want I'm not going to talk about this. I'm
not going to talk about this, which was her standard
m O, which is to drop the bomb and then
say I'm not going to talk about this. In every instance,
when you saw Noah and Rachel together, did you get
(39:17):
the feeling like it was beyond a normal brother sister relationships? Yeah?
And I asked her about it, um and she said, well,
you you don't know, you don't have a sister. I said, well, no,
I don't, but I mean it's you know, it's kind
of weird. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal. What did
you think of their relationship on Dr Phil? It was creepy.
(39:41):
What was really creepy to me is why he was
wearing a black knit hat on Dr Phil. I'd never
seen that before. I didn't see him a lot, but
I saw him occasionally went to the wine bar or
whatever it is that he had a few times, and
I saw him at his house and you know, with
the family though. The whole thing about the man with
the black hat, I know, and that was the basis
(40:02):
for one of Rachel's felony charges. This man in a
black hat that she repeated as the last person to
be with Sam and he was made up right, and
he chooses to go on Dr Phil wearing a weird
knit black hat. It was a very strange thing. I
(40:23):
don't know if he was going to try to it
looked to me he was going to try to set
up some alibi thing where she was said, you know
what I saw. No, that's what made me think of it. No,
always where is this black hat? That's how bizarre and calculated,
but stupidly calculating. I mean, if you look at the murders,
(40:43):
the plot, the plan, the conspiracy is so stupid. It's
so stupid that only they could have planned it. I
firmly believed she helped plan that. So you're at this point,
are you sed an item? Are you still together? That
(41:04):
was really late and at that point I'm really trying
to find out what in the hell did she murder
these people? I'm thinking, maybe he's completely innocent, and she
did it. I know, I'm going, what the hell she's
plotting with her brother. She's her brother is talking about
maybe kicking her in the stomach, throwing her down some stairs,
(41:26):
that causing her board. She's talking about killing her. So
I thought, well, okay, did at one point you feel
like you were in crazy town? Oh yeah, it was
definitely crazy town toward the end, definitely crazy town. It was.
It was kind of a kick, it was kind of
I'm just fast. Yeah, I want to know now. But
(41:52):
the final straw was driving her home drunk and she's
sleeping in my lap because I said she likes to
cuddle Chris like a little kitten, you know, which is
very sweet. So we're driving home after singing karaoke and
having a good time up until you know, she's incoherent
and she snuggles up on my lap and I'm really thinking,
(42:13):
this is, this has gotten just nuts. This probably should
end soon. This is I'm not sure this is worth it.
Even even even the old man with the pretty young
thing is going just don't think it's worth it anymore.
And she starts mumbling in her sleep. So I'm driving
and I said, what did you say? And she reaches
(42:36):
up with a fist and smacks me really hard in
the chest and says, I told you to burn the body.
And I just kept drying, what do you? What the hell?
So little later, what did you say? Nothing? She's out?
(42:59):
How many times did she say it? Just once? And
then she was out. So we got home and the
next morning I said, do you know what you said
to me last night? But the next morning you're not
right away right, You're cooking this elaborate breakfast yea, which
I found quite fascinating, like French sometimes breakfast, I know,
(43:22):
but it was like French eggs and yeah, and some
hash browns and some sliced avocado. I mean talking about
fresh ruttle Stephen King moment. Well, I wanted her to
be comfortable because you knew you were going. Oh, I
have to ask about this. I think you even said
(43:42):
to me you knew that was going to be the
last breakfast. This is it. It's kind of like the
last supper, example is the last breakfast. And and I said,
do you know what you said last night? And we're
sitting out I have this little patio area outside. I
don't smoking the smoke out there. You know. Let's you
were having a little outside, finished the breakfast, some coffee.
(44:08):
Do you know what you said to me listening? So
this is now outside, Yeah, in like a cabata Yeah
where that? Yeah? Okay? And she said no, what And
I said, well, you hit me and you said I
told you to burn the body. And she said, I
did not say that. I said, yeah you did. No,
(44:29):
I said you should have burned the body. I'm thinking, oh,
you you know that. You said something in your sleep first.
It's so bad. I know, it's so bad. When she's trapped,
it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no,
you didn't say about what I should have done or
what I could have done. You said you told me
(44:51):
to burn the body. Did you think I was damn
last night? I don't want to talk about it. That's it.
That's what you can't talk about anymore. And it really
just ended there. It certainly sounds that this outbursts that
you're telling us about Scott was in fact Rachel thinking
(45:13):
she was instructing Dan what to do with Sam's body, because,
after all, Dan left Sam's lifeless body in the theater
attic and for her to make that comment to you.
Scott tells me that perhaps she and Dan spoke about
burning the body because maybe Dan told her about the
(45:36):
incinerator that was located in a building behind the theater, right,
And the theater was located on a military base, and
the building behind the theater was in fact a military hospital,
and oftentimes are brave soldiers didn't come back in one piece,
and their body parts were sent to the morgue and
(45:59):
in fact incinerated. And there was this incinerator that Jeff Hathcock,
who was the owner of the theater at Liberty Theater
at the time, did show Dan this. He Dan was
always fascinated with the macabre, and and I think it
was Halloween when he gave him a tour of the
morgue and pointed out the incinerator. So they obviously had
(46:19):
this conversation. Because the idea of suggesting to burn the
body makes me feel like she knew she knew about
the incinerator. She went to visit the theater many times,
but certainly the one visit that stands out to me
is the visit that she and Dan made two nights
before the murders. So all of this makes sense, and
(46:42):
your story makes sense. So one morning she gets a
call and she I think I was in the shower.
She's very upsetting at what's going on, and she said,
the police want to talk to me again. This was
March because they were most of Pina. So she said, well,
(47:03):
they're coming here. I said, okay. So they came and
they met her in the parking lot and I walked
down with her and they said you you can't be here,
they to you. Yeah, So I walked to the other
side of the parking lot. Okay, whatever, and they were
talking to her and talking to her forever. I'm thinking,
I gotta check out, and I look over and one
(47:24):
of them reaches into his pocket and pulls out rubber gloves,
and then he reached another public and he's doing a
freaking DNA swab in her mouth in the middle of
the parking lot. You know, I'm oh, my god, what
the hell? So after they left us, what what was
that all about? She said, well, there's a box of evidence,
and they keep asking me if there's any way my
DNA could be in that box, and I told them no.
(47:46):
So they asked if they could do a DNA swab
that was me thinking they think she has something to
do with this. But you had never contacted the authorities.
Why why did you feel like you didn't want to
I didn't know anything. Well, I told you to burn
the body is a big I can't that's not going
(48:09):
to be admissible anywhere. There's nothing I can do with him. Yeah,
but you should. I don't know. I would have thought
you would have let them decide that. I would think
that you would want to tell somebody, but you know
you didn't want to tell, maybe because you still wanted
to date her. Well, is that the truth? Are we
getting the truth? I wanted to know. I wanted to know.
(48:31):
I wanted to know. You wanted to know before you
were absolute and you felt it might take a few
more times. Yeah, And look, if I go to the
police and say, hey, this girl was drunk and she
said this, they're gonna go, wow, that's interesting. What they
canna do with it? You just didn't You didn't think
it was enough. No, it's it's not even when I
(48:52):
when I did tell the police, but I was gonna say,
you did at something and tell the police. So let's
talk about that. When did that? Because didn't you go
to see them in Costa Mesa. They came and met me. Yeah,
at the Starbucks across the street from from Medival times.
Now did they come to me after they saw you
march at at that motel? Yeah, it was much later
(49:13):
than that, so they knew you existed and they want
to learn more. So what did they ask you? How
was that exchange? I told them that that was what
I led with because I'm like, you know, she has
something to do with it. She at least the second murder,
because she knew before the second murder that the first
murder had taken place, or else she couldn't have told
(49:33):
him to burn the body. They called actually the d
A after they met with you and said we've got
it now, I mean this, this has got to be
the thing that takes us over the top here that
we can charge you with murder. And he said no,
because you were an X and maybe you had an
AX to grind and yeah, so that I didn't think
that it's gonna be, he said. She said she had
(49:54):
never said such a thing. You know, right, are you're
gonna get anywhere with that? But I mean, if all
of your other stories are pretty accurate and pan out,
why would you make this one up? Right, from everything
I gathered from all the interviews I did with people
that knew Rachel, they said she had a wild jealous streak.
(50:18):
So this is just a theory. But I did speak
with Dave Bernhard, who was a neighbor at the Camden
martiniques and someone that hung out with Dan and Rachel
quite a bit up until the murders, and he did
share with me that he cared deeply for Julie. He
did have a huge crush on Rachel. He didn't feel
like it was necessarily going anywhere, that it might have been,
(50:41):
you know, a one sided thing, but he definitely wanted
to nail her, just wasn't going anywhere. But Julie he
really cared about. He said that really developed from a friendship,
like she was a genuine person and he really cared
about her. They ended up consummating that relationship two nights
before she was and I have to wonder if somehow
(51:08):
Dave had a conversation with Rachel about that, because he
really did want to have a relationship with Rachel, and
I think that might have been a way to make
her jealous, and maybe that's how we thought he could
get her and Rachel finding out about that right, because
Rachel was the kind of person that didn't want any
(51:28):
other woman to get any kind of attention, and she
wanted Dave's attention, but she wanted to have it under
her control on her terms, and so she would do
things in front of Dave at his Taco Tuesday party
like watch this, Watch this, I'm going to get Daniel
to kiss another guy, and I'm going to tell him
I'm not going to go home and have sex with
him unless you know, and he would do it and
(51:50):
actually told she told you that so too. Yeah, And
so I'm just wondering if Dave Barnhard thought I'll give
her a little bit of her own medicine, and so
A four, I'm gonna tell her I have this relationship
with Julie. And you know, it's a theory. It might
not be the way it really happened, but knowing Rachel,
(52:11):
after speaking to people like yourself who knew her firsthand,
it just seems like it would be something that would
incite a target. And if you're a murdering one, why
not to And and Julie was like, I mean, sadly,
as her mother said in court. I mean she was
a prop or actually was a brother Taka that said
(52:32):
that on the Witnes stand, you killed my sister so
that she could be a prop in your sick, demented play,
you know, and that's the truth. That's really poorly written play.
I'm convinced that she helped plan the whole thing at
(52:52):
a minimum, probably for kicks, was involved with some of it.
But I don't under stand why he doesn't rollover on her,
why he doesn't tell this story. I don't get it.
I think that the reason for that is that he's
(53:12):
protecting his brother Tim Ah. Okay, Tim, Tim's involved, but
that's another She went to live with Tim for a
while though after the murders, are for about a week
at the most, his girlfriend at the time, and that
did not make Lisa any happier. For sure. She she
(53:37):
did not like Rachel, didn't care for her. And but
Tim said to me he never saw anybody light a
pipe with you know, for the crystal meth better. I
mean he said she was just an old pro. I
mean usually if you've never done it before, it kind
of involved yes, and he said, not her, Yeah, so
that just no, they're in fact, he said to me
(54:00):
that if she speaks out and says anything, that if
if if he goes down, she's going down, and that
you know, told me a lot. Is he facing any
charges at all? He got a sweet deal he got
he did. He got it because prosecutors were worried that
the defense counsel was going to come up with an
(54:22):
insanity defense, and so they wanted Tim to say that
there was nothing there in his past, that they had
this sort of bucolic life and and there was never
any issues, mental issues, and and so they wanted to
make sure that they won this capital case, and so
they were willing to cut him a deal. And and he's, uh,
(54:46):
he's laughing all the way. So but he feels like
he got away with he got away with it, and
now we have to see what she gets away with.
And I think that you know, they are that is
the reason why he has not said anything against her.
I'm I'm pretty well, it seems like a pretty slam
dunk case. I know there is no such thing, but
(55:08):
she blatantly lied and hopefully they'll, hopefully they can get
her for at least that. Stay tuned. Yeah, exactly, if
you could sum up in one statement, what you'd like
listeners to know about how you feel about Rachel Buffett.
(55:31):
I sit here with you and we laugh a lot,
because I laugh a lot, that's just my nature, and
you're charming and funny. There's really nothing funny about it, Um,
and I I also laugh on him. Embarrassed. I'm embarrassed
(55:52):
that that I didn't see through it sooner. I'm embarrassed
that I had stopped seeing her completely once I even
began to think it was possible. UM. So I deal
with that by laughing a lot. But it's obviously about
as serious as it gets. And I love that you
(56:12):
have the relationship that you do with Um Sam's father,
and I'm probably with Julie's parents as well. And the
last thing the world I would want is for them
to hear this and go, what are they're laughing about?
It's not funny, and it's not. And I I've met
(56:39):
so many people in my life. I have been an
actor almost my whole life, and just people of every description,
people of every every background, every every everything. There's so
many different people. She is the single only person I've
ever met that I think and we already talked about
(57:02):
my feeling about religion. She is evil. It's like she's
an empty vessel. There's no soul, there's no compassion, there's
no anything except ego and and a quest. It is
(57:27):
a quest. It's a quest to do evil. It would
it's amazing to me to manipulate people to be the
center of attention, which all actors want to be the
center of attention. That's why I'm sitting here with you.
I want to be the center of attention. I won't
kill somebody for it. I won't steal and laugh about
(57:49):
it to someone who doesn't like stealing. I mean, it's
she's she's evil. I don't know. That's all I can say.
And I'm embara, and I apologize to anyone who would
be offended by that. Well, I I feel like I
could speak for Steve Hair at this moment. I know
(58:10):
he would appreciate what you're saying. He also, though, finds
humor in life to survive. I mean his sometimes I
feel so guilty when he's making me laugh and I
think I shouldn't be laughing, But he said, if you
don't laugh, and you don't make me laugh, and then
I'm really there's nothing left. Then I'm dead and so
(58:30):
I think he feels humor is a panacea for for
the pain he lives with on a daily basis. And
Daniel Wozniak and if in fact she was involved with
these murders, Rachel Buffett and whoever else was involved with
these martyrs took away his life, took away the kibi
she's life. And poor Raquel Hair says, to this day
(58:55):
she prays, she prays for Daniel Wozniac, which is truly extraordinary,
but that's that's the woman she is. And so I
just want to thank you for all of them to
come on today and be so honest and yeah we laugh,
but that's okay too. Thank you, thank you. On our
(59:25):
next episode of Sleuth, we continue our exclusive interview with
Rachel Buffett's former boyfriend, Scott Erett, who had so many
colorful memories of his two year relationship with the Disney
princess that he called into Sleuth and shared additional bizarre
experiences he had with the girl he met at medieval
times where he and Rachel both worked. You can't make
(59:47):
up what you will soon hear, because reality can be
stranger than fiction. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth,
share it with a friend and be sure to leave
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