March 3, 2025 • 53 mins
He was a creative force behind-the-scenes, now TV legend Chuck Pratt is spilling secrets from the writers room.From the early firings, the tepid ratings, and the total turn into a nighttime soap.Plus, the lawsuits, the money disagreements, and the real reason they never got an 8th season.This is SO Melrose!
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Still the Place with Laura Layton, Courtney Thorn Smith.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And Daphne's Aniga an iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hello ladies, Hi, so good to say. Very excited today.
We're so excited. It's a very special guest, Chuck.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Have you heard that from the girls of Melrose before?
We're so excited we have Pratt on the show today.
I's a writer on Melroe's Place.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Also, what were you saying, daph And you had a
beautiful introduction.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
How hot I am for him?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
We've got Chuck's been around in this industry for so long,
and there should be like a game three degrees of
separation from Chuck because you've written for so many shows
and produced since you were probably a child.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, and if he doesn't know somebody from work, he
went to school with them, or his kids went to
school with them.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
You know everybody.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
No I don't, but he don't.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Beautiful woman, you've written General Hospital, Young and the Restless,
All My Children. Oh yeah, Melrose Place nine O two one, Oh,
keep going.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Then we did that little spinoff, Models Inc. Model But anyway,
you've done so many soaps.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
So that's the pilot of Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Desperate Housewives can I just ask a question before they
get into all the juicy questions, because I was, as
I told you, looking up some info on you. You
you grew up in the business because your dad worked
in the business. Correct, Okay, did your dad produce The
Great Santini?
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Yes, it's so great that you guys actually know where
the next generation has come along. And you say, yeah,
my father is a producer. His last film was The
Great Santini. And they go, oh, is it about a circus?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I go, wow, yeah, I know, Michael.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Blake, Danner, Oscars all nominated.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
It was an amazing movie.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
As a young actor coming up, I just was like that,
wait what, I know, you've done a ton of stuff,
but I'm like, dad produced a great thing.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah, but your dad, Yeah, Well I got I got
to go to the premiere of it. I was just
out of college or about to be out of college
film school, and you know, met Robert Duval, Luke Carlino,
who wrote and directed the film. And but I got
to meet Pat Conray, you know, who wrote the book
(02:34):
it was based on. And I got to sit and
talk with him because I said, you know, you wrote
this book. My father is kind of the great sant
I know the minute, you know, he had to make it.
I was one of the first people who read it.
My dad used to you know, I was working in
the mailroom at Paramount and he would throw me books
and go read this. Tell me what you think you know?
(02:54):
And I read. I remember reading Sounder and thinking, oh
my god, this would be such a great film. I said,
this would be a great film. He goes, yeah, for
somebody else to make it. Go OK, So I read
the great Santini and I and I went. I went
into his office and I said, Dad, this is uh,
this is sort of your story. And he goes, I
(03:14):
never hit your mother, no, no, But I said, you know,
we grew up with horses and they had names like
Trooper and sergeant, you know, and he was a veteran
and he got a good laugh on it. I said,
you have, I mean, you have to make this movie.
And he goes, We're going to make this movie. It
took a lot of it took it basically ended his
(03:35):
career because it took so long, really yeah, to get
the money Ryan and then united artists and uh, then
he couldn't find a director. That's that's a whole story.
I mean, Ulu gros Bar started it, but because of
the basketball scene where he bounces the basketball off his
kid's head, he backed u. Ulu gross Bar said he
(03:56):
wouldn't do it, and my father said, we won't cut
the scene. It's Past's favorite scene the book and that's
the way it goes. So they had, uh, okay, this
is a good start. My father was on a first
class flight to New York to go and talk to
U A about money for the picture, and Paul Newman
is on the same flight reading the script because they've
(04:18):
got it. He was the first person they went out
to and he was probably a little too old for
the part, but you know, they could. They figured they
could make it work. And uh, my father just saw him,
watched him read the script. I mean, what an opportunity.
I thought, never in my life if I had that opportunity.
And yeah, and so he went up to UH as
the flight was coming in. He looked over and Paul
(04:40):
new was going, you know, wiping a tiro and he goes, Okay,
the script did get to you. You know, it was
one of those and my father went up and he said,
you got to do this movie. You know, I just
saw you reading the script. I'm the guy, you know,
I'm the producer and uh and he said, you know,
it would be probably one of the greatest roles of
my life. He said, but I have a I have
(05:02):
a kid, and we have problems. Get had drug problems
and died actually I think of an overdose. And he said,
you know, he's made claims that I'm an abusive father
and stuff. He said, I can't, I can't do this.
My father said, so it's the basketball scene. He goes,
it's the whole thing. It's not just about so so
they lost him. And then they went to Gene Hackman,
(05:24):
Burt Reynolds and you know, and my father goes, you know,
and this went on and on and on, and I
thought other movies on the Orion schedule got moved up
in front of it, and it looked like it might not,
you know, get made. And I think it was Pat
Conroy h lived in the South, and so did Robert Devall.
(05:46):
So pat Conroy said it was his suggestion. How about
Robert Devall's perfect? Deval was perfect? And you know.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
The next logical step, which is Melrose Place. Yes, you know,
there's so much, there's so much in common.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
It was only a few years later.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
The same genre.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so we're so we've been watching it. We're only
in episode twenty three. I feels when doing it a
long time. And first it's like eight kids trying to
make it eight kids. And now it's starting to get
exciting and sexy and stuff is happening. Do you remember
that transition? Do you remember that? Do you was there
in the writer's room, people going, it's not working. Nobody
(06:29):
cares about these kids. We need to spice it up.
Were you brought in there? Were you there from the beginning?
Speaker 5 (06:34):
This part? I remember so well, you know, I mean,
I'll say, God, yes, do I remember this? I mean,
it was it was a it was a number of things.
You know, ratings are always a big deal. And uh,
we had we'd been doing we were on like shooting
episode six or seven, and Darren pulls me into his office.
(06:58):
I was co producer, I think then I was supervising.
Yet Eddie goes and he goes, Juck, I have something
to tell you what Let's walk to the elevator together.
So we walked the elevator. I thought, oh, I'm getting fired,
you know, and I think i'd written, you know, a
number of episodes. When people liked my episode, I thought, wow,
this has never happened. This is scary. And Darren goes,
(07:20):
when we come back it was a Friday goes when
we come back on Monday, goes, none of the people
out there are going to be here. I go, what
do you mean the assistance? I thought, what the assistants
were getting rid of?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
This?
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Says they're great, Eddie goes. He goes, No, we're firing
three writers, you know, including the supervising. Uh, pretty sure,
and we have another guy's coming in. It was Frank South.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Did Frank have a history of soaps and dramas?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
He was an episodic guy. I was, you know, I
was the soap guy riding up episodes in the beginning.
You know a lot of people have given, you know,
given me credits saying I was the reason it turned
to a soap. No, it was. It was as a
combination of people. But I sure as hell knew how
to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You know, but in the beginning, you were writing your
soap style, but without the melrose esqueness of it.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, it was uh, you know, I'd come
off shows like Santa Barbara where where you know, if
you know the history of the show, anything went. We
were insane. We just our ratings were so low and
the network was stopped caring about us. So we had
alien episodes we did. We turned daytime on it. You know,
(08:30):
we didn't care. And we won every you know, we'd
win twenty three Emmys, you know, each season, and you
know I would win Emmys, and it was it was
a great freedom. But then I moved to primetime. It
did Gabriel's Fire and Life Goes On, which were more
traditional shows, and learned the one camera you know world,
which I already knew.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
But you know, so when when Darren said we have
to change it up, did you go, oh great, I
know how to do this and excited.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Actually it wasn't Darren that that said it the way
the way it happened, As I recall Wash, we were
called in uh by UH and I think I think
uh the former writers sumed and fired. Right before they
were fired. We were called in for big meeting. Aaron
was there. I remember writing a note to I think
(09:20):
to Darren, I said, I know why Fox likes I know,
I know why Fox likes Aaron Spelling so much. And
I said he looks like Bart Simpson. And I remember
thinking if Darren shows up to Aaron beyond that elevator.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
And this is around episode six.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Yeah, I was around six, and and it was all
the network executives, all who became at some point or
another president of the network. There was Bob green Blatt,
you know, who went on to run NBC and Showtime. Uh.
There was Sandy Grushaw who ended up being president of Fox.
There was Jonathan litt Men who went on and did
(10:01):
all the Bruckheimer shows and hired Carol mendelsoid not me
not better to this day does he ever? Litman He
owns O HI, I think, and Carol does too. They
(10:21):
were all there and Peter Chernan, who is the head
he was Fox, you know, and we were all called
in and they said, we love these episodes. Uh, you
guys are doing a great job, Darren. You know, you've
created great characters. Production Wise, I don't think ship was there,
but production wise it's looking really good. Uh, you know,
(10:44):
but we're a little concerned about the ratings. I thought
you should be, because I think we just had you know,
episode five, you know, five or six, and you know,
the scripts for seven, eight, nine and ten were in.
I know that we're sitting there and you could, you
could sense it. And afterwards, I said, what was that
(11:05):
meeting about? And Darren goes, I don't know, but they're
they're worried, you know, they were. They were telling Aaron
the only way they could because he was so powerful,
that we're a little worried about the show. So, you know,
everybody got fired and and we kind of reassembled and
then and I remember at the end of that meeting,
(11:26):
Sandy Grushaw was head of marketing, who I just had
an email from and he recalled this moment. I had
written the where Jane loses a baby, where Michael and
Jane had a miscarriage and my wife had just had
a miscarriage. And so it was really an episode, you know,
a very special episode that I got to write about
something I experienced. You know. Of course, I had a
(11:47):
Golden Retriever puppy in it, which I always had a
Golden Retriever puppy and everything I still do. And I
remember the puppy story about you very well. I told
you to everybody. Oh my god, you know, he said, Hi,
Robert Chavez, Ah.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Guys golf together I'm guessing, yeah, yes, so sweet.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
He's so funny. He just he just had nothing but
wonderful things. Anyway, that I am really digressing now, Robert.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
In my very early twenty gosh, it sounded like it
was the turn.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
You know, you guys were all panicking about these numbers.
But we were only like a few episodes in. We've
noticed because we're on twenty three.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
You know, it was it was, you know. Then we
had the famous meeting on a Saturday when the ratings
like for ten came out and I think they were
that was the miscarriage episode. They were the lowest of
the season. I thought, well, I liked it, and and
they called us on a Saturday into Into Fox. Chip
(12:51):
was not there for that either.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I know, because Chip was saying, oh no, they were worried.
We were fine with the ratings.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Missed, almost failed. It was exactly she says, we were losing.
We almost. Chip said, well, I think we had a
twenty two shor order. Oh no, we didn't, do.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
You remember Andrew with the ratings, like waiting for the
ratings to come in and following Lisa.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Andrew, Oh my god, you could do an hour on
Andrew Andrew who what he got the part. We all
went out to the set to see him and meet him,
and we'd seen his pilot golf stream or Golf something
or other golf where he had a gun and you go, oh, no,
(13:32):
he's really handsome. But in one scene he goes down
and he fixes a woman's pipe in the pipes in
the cellar, you know, and he has I know, you
could tell the writers that's what they were thinking. And
the woman looks at him and she's extremely attracted to him,
and h and we all looked and we said he
(13:52):
could be billy, just don't open your mouth, and we're okay.
But we met him and he comes up and he goes, you, well,
it's nice to meet you guys. You know, you know
this Saturday me I wasn't in the Saturday meeting at
Spelling's house, but Darren called me right after. But he goes,
he goes, he said, look, you know I'm doing this show,
(14:14):
but you know what about Golf Springs. I mean, you
know I did that first, and I got I'm just
study liquing. But I go, I don't think that show's
going forward. He goes, really, oh, I just thought, oh
my god. I have had times in my career where
(14:37):
the show I was working on, or that I had
been one case created, was canceled and they called and
gave me the bad news. And then the next day
they called and said, we want to hire you on
another show that we're doing. And you go, okay, can
I take all the writers? I go yeah, I go,
all right, well we're all still working. That's great, different show.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
But so when you fired some of those initial writers
that were hired to write a certain kind of TV
show that wasn't working, and you got other ones in,
like Franky.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They brought Frank in. He was not comfortable with the
whole show. He was you know, he was working and
had written a pilot for Brand Follisy. I mean, he
was kind of you know, in a tier where we
worked and you know of you know not, you know not.
(15:25):
I never I never used the word camp and we
never used the word soap opera. But we were.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Doing you never did the wig thing happen?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
No, No, we had certain we had rules. We had rules,
rules that have followed me to other shows that I've done.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So when Marsha takes off the wig, the scar that
was Shakespeare the words May Shakespeare.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You're really looking for a word, and you're a writer
and you want to save face. You can see there's
two Actually, you say melodrama. It was mellow. Melrose was
great melodrama or Melrose was great.
Speaker 6 (16:03):
And noir and that so melodrama is better than camp
or so.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Oh yeah, okay, oh okay, did we descend in the
last years.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
I mean, luckily you didn't have to be there.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And you're thinking guys were doing soap opera. I know
we're not saying it, but I know what we're doing
because you knew.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
But I knew, but we had certain thing ways and
I mean this was okay, I'll go back to we
have the meeting with the Fox meeting, and they were
all wearing really short tennis shorts and they looked ridiculous.
I mean they look I mean, if you can imagine
these guys without tennis shorts, they're kind of let's not
let's not imagine that the shorts because they had been
(16:44):
playing tennis at the Beverly Hills Tennis Club or whatever.
But so they they called us in and they said,
and before the meeting, Darren looks at me, he goes,
you know what, this is about I bet you figured
it out. And I go, no, these people don't talk
to me, you know. I mean, Aaron barely you know,
(17:04):
knows Aaron knew I was. But he goes taking to
tell us to turn it into a soap. I know
they are, and I looked at I said, well, you know,
it'd be really easy to do, and we are kind
of tiptoeing into it a little bit, and and certainly
with the introduction of Marsha's character, but and.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
You're like, I'm here, and I look at him on
my sad.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
I said, well, let's just go listen to what they say.
And he goes, I don't want to do a soap,
and I go, oh, it's such a soap and I
went okay, I said. I said, okay, well, you know
there's no way we're going to make it one hundred
percent of soap, you know. And I said, so let's
not worry about it. So we went in and they said,
like right out of Bob Greenlet's mouth, we wanted to
(17:49):
turn it into a soap. What would you do? And
Aaron wasn't there, you know, And I said, they've talked
to Aaron for sure, because they used words like Dynas,
Steve Dallas and you know and everything, and we said okay,
and they sort of said it as an ultimatum, you know.
As we left, I said that was an ultimatum. And
(18:11):
Frank was was on at that point, and uh, and.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So who said, don't worry Darren, it'll be a melodrama.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
That came later, but no. And then we went out
and I said, uh, let's give it a try, Darren.
You know, I think it'll be fun, you know, and
he goes, well, you know all the you know Chip used.
I listened to him and he used the you know, tropes.
It's not a word I love, but uh, you know,
there are certain conventions and soap operas and we introduced them,
(18:42):
which is why, you know, when you guys think about it,
why did Keith come in? You know, you had the
ex husband. Did he ever show up? I don't even yes,
Oh my god, I love Linda. He would show up
to he would show up to work with his surf
board and b m W convertible audience, you know, and oh,
(19:05):
there's there's Heather in her Porsche. A good story about
Heather's Porsche. I'm jumping around, I was.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I was.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
I had written and directed an episode. It was really
late late in the in the run of the show,
and we were out at the beach House and we
were on and we were shooting a scene where she's
at a door and she says something and then she
goes out the you know whatever that front door was
and Lee's and uh, I have noise in my head,
sat under what that is? And Forrest calls over and
he goes, it's her car. I go, it's her car
(19:40):
and they go. He goes, somebody turned off Heather's car
and they turned it off. And so she set her line,
went out the door, closed the door, and then she's
standing out there and I say print and I hear
in the headseto. They backed it up right almost to
the door. So she got in the car and boom,
(20:00):
she was gone. I thought, it's really come to this.
It's like, I'm only going to work to the very
last second.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
They were a long hours.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Oh I know, I know. Look when I started to direct,
I realized really how awful it was for you guys.
The doing scenes on the on the beach and during
El Nino with Heather, and she wore she wore ugs,
you know, and they showed up in like a key
shot and we go, oh, she's supposed to be barefoot
in the Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Speaking, because that's all the last part of Melrose. Do
you feel like it was really different two different shows.
I mean a lot of people on the writer stuff
had gone, a lot of actors.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
You know, we did so many episodes, as you guys know,
I know you've talked about double ups, and for us,
we had to write them that fast. Yeah, a lot
of inexperienced writers and very little rewriting more rewrite on
every show I've ever worked on, you know, just just
notes and you know, inner workings with the writers. But
(21:08):
you know, we would have to rewrite and hold the
hands of young writers just to get the scripts, you know,
get enough scripts ready to go. Uh. And we plotted
them one after the other, and we got to the
point where we could plot a show, you know, for
an outline, in a day, day and a half. We
we would then take a few days off to write
and take a breath, but then we would jump in,
(21:31):
you know, and my everyone said I was really good
in the room. But you know, and I've always kind
of had that reputation and I, and I thought, what
do I tell young writers now, because you know, I've
mentored a number of them now, And I said, well,
when the day ends at you know, seven or whatever
the writer's room, we're all exhausted, we're going home. There's
going to be some question about like, well, what's Sydney
(21:54):
going to do tomorrow? And you know, you know she's
trapped in this tunnel and how are we going to
get her out? What does this mean? You know? And
all the writers would come back, think, get their coffee
and say, okay, now what were you going to do?
I would go home and sit, you know, blank stare
you know, my wife always going he's writing again, you know,
(22:14):
and and sit and think and then I would have
the solution. So we start the meeting. I go how
about this? And I would go, oh my god, where
did you get that? I go, well, you know, it
took a little while when I was alone, and I
did it, but yeah, it might have been so priting.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
But how far ahead were you plotting?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Because we talked about, you know, when Marcia came in
and she's got the early scenes with Thomas, or when
Laura came on, would you see someone who was like
a shorter arc and you'd see something and go oh
and get a storia.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
And then we would and then we would change. Yeah,
it's when did.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You know that you were going to bring Laura back?
Because she was so adorable on the show, But did
you know right then?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
It was you know, I can't think specific episodes, but
I remember that you had been in in Michael's It
was you were hired on a short run, as I recall,
I don't know how many episodes.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Two episodes as a guest in the first season, and
that was it, and.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
That was it? Was it the first season or the
second season where you were walking away from the house,
you know, you walk away from the beach house and
Michael was looking out the window and you were kind
of dancing. Yeah, okay, so its being in the second season,
and you know, we used to play tricks in the
mixing booth, which is something Chipped and talked about because
(23:31):
he wasn't there, but we would, you know, we put
farts in you know, I mean the sound guys would
put farts into the most the first one. The first
one came really early because they knew that I loved it,
you know, and Frank two that we would laugh and Darren,
I mean we all just.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
You think that Sydney was dancing down the beach and
she was making sarting.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
But the first one we did was was Andrew and
he bent over and he opened refrigerator. I think it
ended up in the putting credits to get some orange
juice or something and he bends over and to get
the orgins and they just put a little you know literally,
you know, farts make people laugh. So we would just
sit there and laugh and laugh and laugh.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You can't leave it.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
We take it out.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
You have the they.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Have it on a stema and they pull it out.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
But you know, I will say this, having worked on
two and a half men, they do put them in
and they keep them in.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
They just they just add them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
It's like, oh, could you not please not? Yeah, like
they that's what they do and keep it in.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
That's just But they did one with you. It was
the first one that we called it a talking you know,
goof and it's that as you were walking off the beat,
walking down the beach, you were going you would recorded
during you know, during when you were looping, you'd recorded
this whole thing about I'm going down the beach. Here,
I go down the beach. Darren Starr is going to
(24:58):
really put me in a lot of episodes. Now, you know, boy,
I mean you just.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Talked and you did that.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Somebody asked me to do that, and looping and I
did it.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah you don't remember.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
I mean it sounds possible, it sounds good for you,
and somebody asked me to do it and Granted.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Now did you because we noticed in watching it that
all of a sudden, it's like eight nice kids trying
to make it and all of a sudden, there's an
episode where it's just I think it was me and
Andrew and you and Grant, Right, all of a sudden,
it's just these romances against each other.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Yeah, because like carrying through they were.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, like they were like there were just two sexy.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's just everybody. It was me and Keith, So it's
just it's just make out to make up everything. Did
we do anything but make out these No?
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Well, you know what what happened at the end once
we turned into a sob the triangles start to Crisco.
We'll give Jane sister. We need this marriage is so boring.
We need to do something. They've had a miscarriage. We're
out of story, so I just want to read the
paper everywhere. So so so we were, you know, we
(26:15):
started experimenting with it, and Marcia was one and you
were the other. Marcia came in two show arc and
it was just supposed to be a slight flirtation and
it was I think it was Nancy Malone. And I
did the casting, so she had a co producer and
the director of the casting. You know, there weren't the
line of executive producers. No one was there. And she
(26:39):
walked in and I went, oh my god, she's Nicole Kidman,
only I think she's actually more beautiful and I and
then she gave this really good performance and we go great,
you know. So she did her scenes and I'm telling everybody,
look at dailies, look at this person. So right away,
you know a few of us went, oh my god,
lightning in a bottle. This is great. And we thought,
(27:00):
and this is what we used to mess with originally
to yeah to the the couple.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, because we've seen her on and it's so small.
I mean we saw her two different episodes.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
She's in an elevator, there's a scene where she's literally
in an elevator and she just looks at him and
he looks at her. I mean, and I remember thinking,
oh my god, it was all subtext.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
It was possibility, was there.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, she's disappeared, so yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
And she disappeared, and it took a while for us
to get her to come back, I mean, or to
get people to say, yeah, there's really something here, and
then you know the rest, and then we killed her
off and.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Then you need the whole started the whole Melrose, and
then why not Sydney and Kimberly?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Why not both crazy? Still waiting who did you have
an affair with? First? I don't remember, you know, that's
I think Michael didn't.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I don't think it was I think it was you.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
And then after you, I don't remember.
Speaker 6 (28:06):
Yeah, I feel like I feel.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Like somebody in this room is not on top of.
Speaker 6 (28:09):
Things, watching in real time, and we're just not there yet.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
So getting back to what you said, because it's really interesting.
So we have the meaning tonative. So so we said, okay, uh,
you know, and the first thing you do is you
create triangles, quadrangles, you bring in the bedroom so to speak.
I'm trying to be when do we even get rid
of the bedroom. It's I know, well, once we started,
we never did. And you know, the the initial concept was,
(28:39):
you know, a platonic relationship between you know, and Darren
always told me it was the platonic relationship he had
with you when you were roommates, that that was the
influence of the show.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Remember, well, do you remember I remember him saying he
based Allison on me.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
We did.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We lived in a tiny little apartment. He had a
guy roommate. I have a girl roommate.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
We shared one bathroom, I believe, in this tiny little
right off UCLA because we're uc together.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
And uh, I mean, but I don't see how it
was me because it wasn't He wasn't. I not his type, Billy.
Those two kind of moon for each other. But that's
not it obviously.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But was that always the plan or was it just
that Andrew and I fell into bed so quickly.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
They so interesting I thought it took forever to get
you to a bit I remember.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
I mean, and you're talking about on camera the show
in real life, it was like we wanted to bring
the show to.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
For a long time. And I'm a professional, I'm like,
oh my god, it was episode two.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Well it was. It was like two, I go, we
can't keep these guys platonic for long, I mean on
the show as characters, I mean, and so we thought, okay,
and you know, well, well we'll build to it. So
we put every kind of a you know, soap impediment
between the two of you, and it really it really worked.
I mean it really worked.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Heather.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Heather was you know, no different than Marsha Cross. I mean, yes,
she was the great Heather Locklayer. And there was you know,
I mean the casting of Heather. The writers were really
had nothing to do with it, including Darren for a while.
He might you know, correct me, and I just don't know.
But it was like we created the character first. We didn't. Wow,
(30:28):
somebody didn't come to us and say create a character
for Heather Locklayer. No, because you we said okay, well
and then I guarantee this was me. But you were
working you know, in an ad agency and with Lucy.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Every year.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, Deborah, and you know that was good. But it
was good on an episodic basis. It was she's a
small part. You two, you don't get along. She's an
evil boss, a Devilwar's product. Uh, you know, and that
that's a you know, episodic kind of a relationship. And
so when we turned it into a soap, we said,
(31:07):
we should get rid of Lucy and we should bring
somebody in who wants you know, who tortures you, but
wants your guy, you know, and that will slow down
Billy and Allison is if we bring somebody between him
who's beautiful, who he falls in love with and makes
all that stupid mistake and then it sends you to
the keys of the world and all of that. So
(31:29):
it kind of it happened that way. And then we
started casting and we actually did read some actresses I remember,
and then you know, with just you know, the lowly
producers and uh and then Aaron calls up and says,
how about Heather Lockleyar, I mean, he really, I'm doing
my errand imitation have we've done it years respect for
(31:50):
the you know, the dearly departed. But he said, guys,
you know Heather, she's she's great, she's magic, you know,
those eyes, and you know she's been real good for me.
She's my lucky penny, you know. And we had this
like conference call where we're all listening to this and
going oh okay, all right, uh, you know, and then
hung up the phone. We go, you know, she's going
(32:11):
to take over the show, you know, thank god, you know,
yea over things. Yeah, no, and uh and then we
all calmed down and then uh, Aaron had sent down,
you know, a VHS of a movie. She'd just done
something up in you know, movie of the week up
in Canada, and she she had done it. And we
(32:34):
looked at her and she looked fabulous.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, she didn't look any older.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
I thought, oh my god, yeah, she looks amazing, amazing.
So so you know, we hired her. And then she
didn't want to be a bitch, and you know, so
we did some last minute rewriting which we weren't used
to make her not a bitch. And then you know,
we're looking at the cuts, going, it doesn't matter what
we wrote, it's coming out out. You know. The subtext
(33:02):
she she just she knew how to put. She was
the rival, you know, she was going to be a
little troublemaker, and you know it was I.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Thought it was her natural sweetness that sort of shone
through because you wanted to hate her, but you couldn't
fight because she was saying to Alison, is it okay?
There something going on? And Allison kept stumbling over herself. Yeah, yeah,
that's interesting that you wrote it that way. But then
has there such a good bitch later?
Speaker 5 (33:25):
So yeah, but yeah, I mean she developed that way
once the you know, once the blinders are off. I mean,
when she slept with Billy, you know, it was like, okay,
you can't.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
Keep playing it, and she kept throwing it in your
face and yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:38):
And you'll have the proverbial wish that she'd never been born.
I wrote that line, that's right, it's a it's a
line that I taught writing at Chapman College for two
years a while back, while I was doing the Secrets
of Self Springs. But I would show them clips of Melrose.
(34:01):
You know, uh, you know these are young, you know,
they all are all gonna be great screenwriters in their minds,
you know, and uh, and I show them the line.
But I would show I'd show clips from YouTube because
there's no way that they would you know, read, or
that I could be able to find the script. And
the one I would do is is Heather backs you
into a corner at D and D. There were like
(34:23):
five of them after I wrote mine. Everybody started to
write it, and it's the thing. She goes, I'm gonna
make I'm gonna make your life so miserable, and then
you'll have that proverbial wish you'd never been born? Do
you remember? Was great?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I don't like And we said.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
It was the you know, there were certain you know
moments we call them. You know, Uh, that's Melrose, we
would say, and we go that scene, we go, that's Melrose.
We're just sitting in the editing room. We go, that's
me and what's his name on Channel five? Who just
passed away? Yeah, yeah, he did his quote of the week. Uh,
(35:06):
you know, so we would all, you know, the competition,
you know, like that line.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Didn't Sydney say to her own mother, get back on
your broomstick and fly back.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
That famous life life? I think Darren wrote that, I
don't remember. Yeah, it wasn't Frank. Frank. Frank was so
in the beginning uncomfortable with all of it. There was
a great, a great moment. Frank, he's not gonna be listening,
but if he is, he'll go, I'm gonna call Chuck.
(35:37):
But we were. It was his first episode. I think
that he wrote that's like episode eight, I want to say, uh,
and he had jake probably your door or it might
have been your door. I don't know whose doory was that,
but he was saying and he recited poetry.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, we were all like, oh Cashmire lyrics, cashmre.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Sweater and he does the thing.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
But anyhow, it was so not what we've been doing
up until then. It was. It was well written. Frank.
That was his first script. And so we're in we're
in the editing room looking at it and going cut it, Frank,
cut it, cut it, cut it. Just having walk up,
We'll just you know, cut all the dialogue and just
(36:25):
a look and then we'll be out. You know, I
mean it was, it was. It was fine, but Frank's going, no, no, no, no,
it's the whole crux. It's the whole thing. It's the
whole theme that poem. I love that poem. I've read
read that poem to my wife and she said yes
when we got married. Anyway, he was passionate about.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It so well, the girls loved it, and.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
I had bike liked it. You know, I think, you know,
I think it was it was you know, I don't
remember other people's reaction to it, except Darren was a
little like there was always a little like this with Frank.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And uh, how long did it take for Frank to
come around?
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Well, no, this is this is a story. So you know,
we would all we would march up, you know, got
in the gutter, you guys. It was almost every week,
but we would be taking a producer's cut up to
Aaron for him to do his cut. Uh, you know,
and and I mean I have a lot of stories
about those. We'd all sit on the long couch and uh,
(37:26):
the editors would be there and all of us chip
for a while. But then I think year two he
stopped coming. But we'd all be sitting on the couch
and Duke would be there. I mean, it was it
was the brain trust and we would turn down the
lights and then Kenny his his his post guy would
run the thing, you know, and you go and stop,
don't go for me there, you know, and you go
(37:51):
and then you'd watch it and then you know, you
kind of watch it by act and he'd sometimes stop
twice in the whole episode and go a great episode guy.
Sometimes he'd you know, twenty times he was having a
bad day. We were screening Frank's episode, you know, and
it was going along fine, and it came to that
scene and the big log speech at Grant given it
(38:14):
us all and doing the poem, and in the in
Aaron's office, you had a different feeling for the show.
It wasn't necessarily you know, it's like, what is he
going to think of it? Because he didn't you know,
he loved the show, but he saw it in context
of nine to two, one zero and other shows that
were really very different, and we wanted to be very different.
(38:37):
And so Frank he just I could demonstrate, but it's radio,
but he just lowered his head and put his head
in his hands. Because Aaron stopped afterwards.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Oh and you just feel it.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
He goes, guys, guys, and Frank just goes down like this.
Aaron looks looks at Frank, and you know, he hadn't
known him for very long, you know, none of us,
and we're all looking at Frank, and I thought, oh
my god, he's having like a nervous breakdown, or he's
he's going to start crying. I don't know what he's
(39:10):
gonna do. And and Aaron goes looks at me, and
I go, I don't know, I don't know what's wrong,
you know, and everybody, and I remember Darren. Darren would
just get so amused by these things. Nothing really bothered him,
and he would just sit there certain things. Bother memore
when he took out a phone one day about something
or other. I don't remember what early on, but we're
(39:34):
sitting there and then Frank just gets I go I
was the one who said, Frank like a father to
a kid. Frank, and he put his head up and
he goes, cut it, just cut it, and goes, well,
we agree on that. But it stayed. It stayed. I
(39:57):
think that Aaron had a change of mind. It stayed.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It did seem I mean, it worked for us.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
It wasn't the show. I mean, it wasn't what we'd
been doing up until then. No, it was very.
Speaker 6 (40:09):
They're also looking at it thirty years later, going oh
that's so sweet and that works. But maybe at the time, yeah,
we know, I think everybody may have been watching it differently.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
So it was like, what was.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
That screaming guitars? I mean we were we were more
screaming guitars now seen over two pages. That was my rule.
I said, you know, this audience they're going to lose interest.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
And it was the whole poem. It wasn't just like,
oh yeah, a couple of a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
You know, he was this like literate writer, this you know,
fancy writer that comes in and.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Deals with you guys.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I know, I'm just trying to get some freaking poetry
in the show.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And you're like, no, he got down in the mud
with us pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
But we're coming to the end of our time, so
we want to get some really important questions, like what
was you remember the craziest storyline that you liked the
most or hated the most, Like what do you remember as.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
A thing that you couldn't get in?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Maybe, Oh, that's a great question. So that's like nine
questions in one.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Yeah, we'll start with I couldn't get in And it's
the very last episode of Melrose and we wanted Courtney
to come back. Yeah, did they offer you money? Did
it ever?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Get to the know they wanted me to come back.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I was working on Alan mcbill at the time, and
that schedule was crazy and we just couldn't make it work.
And I remember trying to like, if I could get
there by the end, I could do something and we
were we were like eighteen hour days on the show.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
So I'm so bummed.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
I have the scene and we were going to bring
Billy back to We were going to bring them both
and Marcia uh and and sorry, well you could have
brought she was dead one three.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, I was so we couldn't get I couldn't get off.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
Set literally, So so I wrote and directed the episode.
And there was a scene in a bar, yes, and
and and I had something. No, there was just an
empty stool, and I had the camera moves by and
stops and there's a bar with it just one stool,
you know, there are no other stools or there were
two stools, and it was going to be a Billy
and Alison moment. And I just had it. And I thought,
(42:15):
I'll always know that you know what that means. But
you know, so favorite favorite storyline was memorable. There were so.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Many that you like, people like that were that you
were that were the most fun.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Like I think of the building blowing up.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
Yeah yeah, I mean the building. Everybody's made a big
deal of it, and it was you know it was
during the Oklahoma bombing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did except
the uh certainly on the production side, but uh that
we were going to do it at the end of
the season, but because of the Oklahoma bombing, we just
had her go it gets worse, which is my favorite
(42:55):
line on the show ever. I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
That's great.
Speaker 5 (42:58):
You know, it goes this is ah, this is very bad.
She goes, No, it gets worse. That's great.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, who did Joe's baby? Let's give her a baby?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Oh yeah, that was get Let's have her.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
That's when I went on Models Inc. But I was
part of I was part of that. Yeah. Yeah, that
was a lot of Carol Mendelssohn. I think she came on,
you know, she had no experience and so but I'd
worked on Gabriel's Fire with her and I had suggested her.
I said, you're going to need someone to replace me.
I go. She has taped every episode of General Hospital.
(43:34):
She is a total soap fan, even though she writes
crime shows. And so they brought her in and you
know she was.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So you left as a writer producer for a while
to go do Models Inc.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
Off the season. Then I came back season later.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, and did you stay till the end the last
of the seven seasons?
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:52):
And how did it feel for you when it shifted,
because we talk a lot about you know, we left,
you left after four, we left after five, Like what
did that?
Speaker 5 (44:02):
It was? Yeah, it did?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Which your real question to ask questions? My question was
where the three of us are very favorite.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Yeah, you know, we get down to like why did
you leave? And stuff? I know Chip talked to you
about that, and you know, sometimes it's money. Sometimes it's
some creative decision. And I honestly, with you, I don't remember,
and with you I kind of remember. I remember being
completely against it, but there were powers that be that
(44:36):
were I don't know if it was money or what
it was, but they were, you know, and and you
know Grant leaving, Uh, you know it. You know as writers,
you're just for writers. It's an opportunity to bring in
new characters that you know, you guys, we ran you
through a soap mill like unbelievable. You know, marriages and
(45:00):
you know deaths and crime and you know, god knows what,
going crazy and stuff. And you get to a point where, wow,
what did we do with the next You know, we
can't rehabilitate them or make this past go away and
ignore it like they do in daytime. So but so
it was a it was a case of, you know,
(45:22):
in some cases like we don't have any more story,
you know, we got to go in a different direction
of people. We got to give these put the new
people through new scenary people. But I remember I was
the one who said I took it like personally every
time somebody left, because I said, oh my god, you know,
I was here. I wrote to episode two and you know,
and and I just remember the whole journey and it's
(45:45):
like those for initial people walking down the street, you know,
walking down Melrose room was and it became and it evolved.
And believe me, I loved every person we brought on,
and I liked all of their their stories. You know,
we jumped the shark so many times that you know,
like when do we first jump the shark? And uh, you.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Know, I.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Like and you know, I wrote and directed that last
episode and uh it was so sad, you know, and
and uh it was so sad. I made sure the
last shot was of Heather, you know. And I think
the feeling was at Fox as long as Heather's on
the show, it doesn't matter who else is on the show.
They had they had moved on in their mind, but
(46:31):
you know, the ratings were starting to go down, you know,
and then the last year, I know why it was canceled,
why we didn't get an eighth season, which we really wanted.
Uh it was the show between the lawsuits and the stuff,
it was really tainted, and you know, and quite frankly,
they said, we can't afford to pay Heather.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, a lawsuit, the pregnancy lawsuit.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Yeah, the pregnancy lawsuit. And then uh the Jerry, remember
the assistant director Jerry. Yes, yeah, I was. I was
all a part of that. But luckily, you know, that's
what sent Frank and Chip and Harry, Oh god, Harry,
very greatest guy.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
We have to have you back because clearly you have
like a treasure trope more.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
We could do this.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
I didn't even pick up my questions. I don't know,
we just do.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
I have one more question, just based on something you
were describing as just the process of the writer's room,
the task of writing the episode would rotate amongst the writers.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (47:43):
But like, did you find that you had like a
character or a voice that were the writers that were
particularly good at writing this particular voice?
Speaker 5 (47:51):
And you know, did you have to be a writer
in the show. You had to. You had to be
able to write everybody. You know. I loved I like writing, Courtney.
I loved writing uh you know, Amanda, I you know,
I would say, uh in latter years, I loved Jack
Wagner because he was just so disgusting, you know. I
(48:13):
mean I thought, I thought I can just let out
my ikey icky, you know. But but and and there
were writers who loved to write certain things, you know. Uh,
I know, Carol loved writing Daphanie and all the women,
(48:33):
and uh, Darren, I think the original core group was
always his favorite. But uh, you know, but you know,
writing it, well, you had to write every character, you know,
And and we were going so fast. We'd break these things,
you know, up on a big board and then send
the writer off. And I was always writing. I mean
(48:54):
I was writing an episode, or I was something with
shooting that I wrote, or you know, and that was
true of all of us, you know.
Speaker 6 (49:00):
And because you were writing at such a pace, did
you did you have to adjust and pivot when you go,
oh my gosh, the storyline that we thought was going
in this one way, and look at how it's turning.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Out, did you have to go a pivot?
Speaker 5 (49:11):
And like completely, I mean a lot. And I think
that was one of the keys to the show's success
is that we were very fluid. We we didn't get
locked into stuff, you know, something better came along or
something didn't work, we would just you know, change gears.
The Marsha thing, we kill her, you know, in this accident.
(49:32):
And actually the way that happened was was a little
like Chip told it, but it was. It was actually
Darren and I and I think somebody else I don't
know who had dinner. This was a yeah, it was
during Frank, but Frank wasn't there. He was home. We
had we had a really nice you know, you always
eat well when you're around there. So we went to
(49:54):
in the valley somewhere, you know. We went to a
great French French meal and a bottle wine, and then
we drove out to watch Marsha get killed in this
in the spectacular car crash that did go beyond it,
and we just sat and talked to Marsha for the
longest time, and I never really had talked to her much,
and you know, and she went back and we shot
the scene and I looked at Darren. I go, let's
(50:17):
not kill her, and he goes, Chuck, we just killed
her on the film. And I said yeah, I said,
but you know, we we can keep her alive and
have her come back from the dead. You know, have
you the favorite it's a favorite story. I don't even
think they can do it anymore. They've done it so often.
Nobody really dies, you know. Yeah, and uh, and we
(50:38):
said our first thought was we were sitting there and
we go, Okay, we got to sell Aaron on this,
you know, got to sell the network on this. And
then I said we got to sell Frank because he
wrote the next episode where there's an open casket and
there's a scene in the hospital. Yeah, and and all this,
all this stuff, and so that we were all scratching
(51:00):
our ads, going, uh, you know, I mean, Darren and
I were going, how are we going to sell this?
How are we going to get this done? And so
we uh, what we did was we went back and
talked to Frank and he was very upset, and I said,
close the casket, put her in a coma, so she's
(51:21):
in a hospital bed, and then and then she's when
she's in the hospital bed, you did the scene where
he comes back and I think, this is the way
we did it. And we come back and Michael comes
back and the bed is empty, and they say she
passed away, and and Frank's going, yeah, and I said, well,
she didn't pass away. Her mother came and got her.
(51:41):
And her mother we've never even mentioned her mother. She's
in the Midwest somewhere, and she hated Michael, and Michael
did this to her. So so her daughter wasn't going
to die in front of him, so she took her
back to die, and then she wakes up in the coma,
you know, and then the you know, the the you know,
(52:05):
we wrote the scar but everybody went the set chip
and all them they were way over the top. We go,
oh my god, who's going to buy this? And is
this too much? Yes?
Speaker 3 (52:20):
And the place that's why, that's a perfect place to
end it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
That's Chuck, Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (52:29):
Would love We know there's many more stories, Okay, yeah,
so many season two.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I mean, we could do a specials.
Speaker 5 (52:40):
We could do a special one on models.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
They really do our listeners really and fans that write
in or comment really ask about the behind the scenes
everything that you talked about. So many people are curious about,
you know, they're like, oh, these guys are cute to
look at.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
But you know, you're like, we're in the room when
it happened, so we have more and.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
We make it. We can't have that old
Speaker 2 (53:06):
I was in the room where it a thank you Jack, Thanks,
thank you
Still the Place with Laura Layton, Courtney Thorn Smith.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And Daphne's Aniga an iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hello ladies, Hi, so good to say. Very excited today.
We're so excited. It's a very special guest, Chuck.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Have you heard that from the girls of Melrose before?
We're so excited we have Pratt on the show today.
I's a writer on Melroe's Place.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Also, what were you saying, daph And you had a
beautiful introduction.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
How hot I am for him?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
We've got Chuck's been around in this industry for so long,
and there should be like a game three degrees of
separation from Chuck because you've written for so many shows
and produced since you were probably a child.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, and if he doesn't know somebody from work, he
went to school with them, or his kids went to
school with them.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
You know everybody.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
No I don't, but he don't.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Beautiful woman, you've written General Hospital, Young and the Restless,
All My Children. Oh yeah, Melrose Place nine O two one, Oh,
keep going.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Then we did that little spinoff, Models Inc. Model But anyway,
you've done so many soaps.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
So that's the pilot of Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Desperate Housewives can I just ask a question before they
get into all the juicy questions, because I was, as
I told you, looking up some info on you. You
you grew up in the business because your dad worked
in the business. Correct, Okay, did your dad produce The
Great Santini?
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Yes, it's so great that you guys actually know where
the next generation has come along. And you say, yeah,
my father is a producer. His last film was The
Great Santini. And they go, oh, is it about a circus?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I go, wow, yeah, I know, Michael.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Blake, Danner, Oscars all nominated.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
It was an amazing movie.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
As a young actor coming up, I just was like that,
wait what, I know, you've done a ton of stuff,
but I'm like, dad produced a great thing.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah, but your dad, Yeah, Well I got I got
to go to the premiere of it. I was just
out of college or about to be out of college
film school, and you know, met Robert Duval, Luke Carlino,
who wrote and directed the film. And but I got
to meet Pat Conray, you know, who wrote the book
(02:34):
it was based on. And I got to sit and
talk with him because I said, you know, you wrote
this book. My father is kind of the great sant
I know the minute, you know, he had to make it.
I was one of the first people who read it.
My dad used to you know, I was working in
the mailroom at Paramount and he would throw me books
and go read this. Tell me what you think you know?
(02:54):
And I read. I remember reading Sounder and thinking, oh
my god, this would be such a great film. I said,
this would be a great film. He goes, yeah, for
somebody else to make it. Go OK, So I read
the great Santini and I and I went. I went
into his office and I said, Dad, this is uh,
this is sort of your story. And he goes, I
(03:14):
never hit your mother, no, no, But I said, you know,
we grew up with horses and they had names like
Trooper and sergeant, you know, and he was a veteran
and he got a good laugh on it. I said,
you have, I mean, you have to make this movie.
And he goes, We're going to make this movie. It
took a lot of it took it basically ended his
(03:35):
career because it took so long, really yeah, to get
the money Ryan and then united artists and uh, then
he couldn't find a director. That's that's a whole story.
I mean, Ulu gros Bar started it, but because of
the basketball scene where he bounces the basketball off his
kid's head, he backed u. Ulu gross Bar said he
(03:56):
wouldn't do it, and my father said, we won't cut
the scene. It's Past's favorite scene the book and that's
the way it goes. So they had, uh, okay, this
is a good start. My father was on a first
class flight to New York to go and talk to
U A about money for the picture, and Paul Newman
is on the same flight reading the script because they've
(04:18):
got it. He was the first person they went out
to and he was probably a little too old for
the part, but you know, they could. They figured they
could make it work. And uh, my father just saw him,
watched him read the script. I mean, what an opportunity.
I thought, never in my life if I had that opportunity.
And yeah, and so he went up to UH as
the flight was coming in. He looked over and Paul
(04:40):
new was going, you know, wiping a tiro and he goes, Okay,
the script did get to you. You know, it was
one of those and my father went up and he said,
you got to do this movie. You know, I just
saw you reading the script. I'm the guy, you know,
I'm the producer and uh and he said, you know,
it would be probably one of the greatest roles of
my life. He said, but I have a I have
(05:02):
a kid, and we have problems. Get had drug problems
and died actually I think of an overdose. And he said,
you know, he's made claims that I'm an abusive father
and stuff. He said, I can't, I can't do this.
My father said, so it's the basketball scene. He goes,
it's the whole thing. It's not just about so so
they lost him. And then they went to Gene Hackman,
(05:24):
Burt Reynolds and you know, and my father goes, you know,
and this went on and on and on, and I
thought other movies on the Orion schedule got moved up
in front of it, and it looked like it might not,
you know, get made. And I think it was Pat
Conroy h lived in the South, and so did Robert Devall.
(05:46):
So pat Conroy said it was his suggestion. How about
Robert Devall's perfect? Deval was perfect? And you know.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
The next logical step, which is Melrose Place. Yes, you know,
there's so much, there's so much in common.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
It was only a few years later.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
The same genre.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so we're so we've been watching it. We're only
in episode twenty three. I feels when doing it a
long time. And first it's like eight kids trying to
make it eight kids. And now it's starting to get
exciting and sexy and stuff is happening. Do you remember
that transition? Do you remember that? Do you was there
in the writer's room, people going, it's not working. Nobody
(06:29):
cares about these kids. We need to spice it up.
Were you brought in there? Were you there from the beginning?
Speaker 5 (06:34):
This part? I remember so well, you know, I mean,
I'll say, God, yes, do I remember this? I mean,
it was it was a it was a number of things.
You know, ratings are always a big deal. And uh,
we had we'd been doing we were on like shooting
episode six or seven, and Darren pulls me into his office.
(06:58):
I was co producer, I think then I was supervising.
Yet Eddie goes and he goes, Juck, I have something
to tell you what Let's walk to the elevator together.
So we walked the elevator. I thought, oh, I'm getting fired,
you know, and I think i'd written, you know, a
number of episodes. When people liked my episode, I thought, wow,
this has never happened. This is scary. And Darren goes,
(07:20):
when we come back it was a Friday goes when
we come back on Monday, goes, none of the people
out there are going to be here. I go, what
do you mean the assistance? I thought, what the assistants
were getting rid of?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
This?
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Says they're great, Eddie goes. He goes, No, we're firing
three writers, you know, including the supervising. Uh, pretty sure,
and we have another guy's coming in. It was Frank South.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Did Frank have a history of soaps and dramas?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
He was an episodic guy. I was, you know, I
was the soap guy riding up episodes in the beginning.
You know a lot of people have given, you know,
given me credits saying I was the reason it turned
to a soap. No, it was. It was as a
combination of people. But I sure as hell knew how
to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You know, but in the beginning, you were writing your
soap style, but without the melrose esqueness of it.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, it was uh, you know, I'd come
off shows like Santa Barbara where where you know, if
you know the history of the show, anything went. We
were insane. We just our ratings were so low and
the network was stopped caring about us. So we had
alien episodes we did. We turned daytime on it. You know,
(08:30):
we didn't care. And we won every you know, we'd
win twenty three Emmys, you know, each season, and you
know I would win Emmys, and it was it was
a great freedom. But then I moved to primetime. It
did Gabriel's Fire and Life Goes On, which were more
traditional shows, and learned the one camera you know world,
which I already knew.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
But you know, so when when Darren said we have
to change it up, did you go, oh great, I
know how to do this and excited.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Actually it wasn't Darren that that said it the way
the way it happened, As I recall Wash, we were
called in uh by UH and I think I think
uh the former writers sumed and fired. Right before they
were fired. We were called in for big meeting. Aaron
was there. I remember writing a note to I think
(09:20):
to Darren, I said, I know why Fox likes I know,
I know why Fox likes Aaron Spelling so much. And
I said he looks like Bart Simpson. And I remember
thinking if Darren shows up to Aaron beyond that elevator.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
And this is around episode six.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Yeah, I was around six, and and it was all
the network executives, all who became at some point or
another president of the network. There was Bob green Blatt,
you know, who went on to run NBC and Showtime. Uh.
There was Sandy Grushaw who ended up being president of Fox.
There was Jonathan litt Men who went on and did
(10:01):
all the Bruckheimer shows and hired Carol mendelsoid not me
not better to this day does he ever? Litman He
owns O HI, I think, and Carol does too. They
(10:21):
were all there and Peter Chernan, who is the head
he was Fox, you know, and we were all called
in and they said, we love these episodes. Uh, you
guys are doing a great job, Darren. You know, you've
created great characters. Production Wise, I don't think ship was there,
but production wise it's looking really good. Uh, you know,
(10:44):
but we're a little concerned about the ratings. I thought
you should be, because I think we just had you know,
episode five, you know, five or six, and you know,
the scripts for seven, eight, nine and ten were in.
I know that we're sitting there and you could, you
could sense it. And afterwards, I said, what was that
(11:05):
meeting about? And Darren goes, I don't know, but they're
they're worried, you know, they were. They were telling Aaron
the only way they could because he was so powerful,
that we're a little worried about the show. So, you know,
everybody got fired and and we kind of reassembled and
then and I remember at the end of that meeting,
(11:26):
Sandy Grushaw was head of marketing, who I just had
an email from and he recalled this moment. I had
written the where Jane loses a baby, where Michael and
Jane had a miscarriage and my wife had just had
a miscarriage. And so it was really an episode, you know,
a very special episode that I got to write about
something I experienced. You know. Of course, I had a
(11:47):
Golden Retriever puppy in it, which I always had a
Golden Retriever puppy and everything I still do. And I
remember the puppy story about you very well. I told
you to everybody. Oh my god, you know, he said, Hi,
Robert Chavez, Ah.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Guys golf together I'm guessing, yeah, yes, so sweet.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
He's so funny. He just he just had nothing but
wonderful things. Anyway, that I am really digressing now, Robert.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
In my very early twenty gosh, it sounded like it
was the turn.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
You know, you guys were all panicking about these numbers.
But we were only like a few episodes in. We've
noticed because we're on twenty three.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
You know, it was it was, you know. Then we
had the famous meeting on a Saturday when the ratings
like for ten came out and I think they were
that was the miscarriage episode. They were the lowest of
the season. I thought, well, I liked it, and and
they called us on a Saturday into Into Fox. Chip
(12:51):
was not there for that either.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I know, because Chip was saying, oh no, they were worried.
We were fine with the ratings.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Missed, almost failed. It was exactly she says, we were losing.
We almost. Chip said, well, I think we had a
twenty two shor order. Oh no, we didn't, do.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
You remember Andrew with the ratings, like waiting for the
ratings to come in and following Lisa.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Andrew, Oh my god, you could do an hour on
Andrew Andrew who what he got the part. We all
went out to the set to see him and meet him,
and we'd seen his pilot golf stream or Golf something
or other golf where he had a gun and you go, oh, no,
(13:32):
he's really handsome. But in one scene he goes down
and he fixes a woman's pipe in the pipes in
the cellar, you know, and he has I know, you
could tell the writers that's what they were thinking. And
the woman looks at him and she's extremely attracted to him,
and h and we all looked and we said he
(13:52):
could be billy, just don't open your mouth, and we're okay.
But we met him and he comes up and he goes, you, well,
it's nice to meet you guys. You know, you know
this Saturday me I wasn't in the Saturday meeting at
Spelling's house, but Darren called me right after. But he goes,
he goes, he said, look, you know I'm doing this show,
(14:14):
but you know what about Golf Springs. I mean, you
know I did that first, and I got I'm just
study liquing. But I go, I don't think that show's
going forward. He goes, really, oh, I just thought, oh
my god. I have had times in my career where
(14:37):
the show I was working on, or that I had
been one case created, was canceled and they called and
gave me the bad news. And then the next day
they called and said, we want to hire you on
another show that we're doing. And you go, okay, can
I take all the writers? I go yeah, I go,
all right, well we're all still working. That's great, different show.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
But so when you fired some of those initial writers
that were hired to write a certain kind of TV
show that wasn't working, and you got other ones in,
like Franky.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They brought Frank in. He was not comfortable with the
whole show. He was you know, he was working and
had written a pilot for Brand Follisy. I mean, he
was kind of you know, in a tier where we
worked and you know of you know not, you know not.
(15:25):
I never I never used the word camp and we
never used the word soap opera. But we were.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Doing you never did the wig thing happen?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
No, No, we had certain we had rules. We had rules,
rules that have followed me to other shows that I've done.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So when Marsha takes off the wig, the scar that
was Shakespeare the words May Shakespeare.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You're really looking for a word, and you're a writer
and you want to save face. You can see there's
two Actually, you say melodrama. It was mellow. Melrose was
great melodrama or Melrose was great.
Speaker 6 (16:03):
And noir and that so melodrama is better than camp
or so.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Oh yeah, okay, oh okay, did we descend in the
last years.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
I mean, luckily you didn't have to be there.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And you're thinking guys were doing soap opera. I know
we're not saying it, but I know what we're doing
because you knew.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
But I knew, but we had certain thing ways and
I mean this was okay, I'll go back to we
have the meeting with the Fox meeting, and they were
all wearing really short tennis shorts and they looked ridiculous.
I mean they look I mean, if you can imagine
these guys without tennis shorts, they're kind of let's not
let's not imagine that the shorts because they had been
(16:44):
playing tennis at the Beverly Hills Tennis Club or whatever.
But so they they called us in and they said,
and before the meeting, Darren looks at me, he goes,
you know what, this is about I bet you figured
it out. And I go, no, these people don't talk
to me, you know. I mean, Aaron barely you know,
(17:04):
knows Aaron knew I was. But he goes taking to
tell us to turn it into a soap. I know
they are, and I looked at I said, well, you know,
it'd be really easy to do, and we are kind
of tiptoeing into it a little bit, and and certainly
with the introduction of Marsha's character, but and.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
You're like, I'm here, and I look at him on
my sad.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
I said, well, let's just go listen to what they say.
And he goes, I don't want to do a soap,
and I go, oh, it's such a soap and I
went okay, I said. I said, okay, well, you know
there's no way we're going to make it one hundred
percent of soap, you know. And I said, so let's
not worry about it. So we went in and they said,
like right out of Bob Greenlet's mouth, we wanted to
(17:49):
turn it into a soap. What would you do? And
Aaron wasn't there, you know, And I said, they've talked
to Aaron for sure, because they used words like Dynas,
Steve Dallas and you know and everything, and we said okay,
and they sort of said it as an ultimatum, you know.
As we left, I said that was an ultimatum. And
(18:11):
Frank was was on at that point, and uh, and.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So who said, don't worry Darren, it'll be a melodrama.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
That came later, but no. And then we went out
and I said, uh, let's give it a try, Darren.
You know, I think it'll be fun, you know, and
he goes, well, you know all the you know Chip used.
I listened to him and he used the you know, tropes.
It's not a word I love, but uh, you know,
there are certain conventions and soap operas and we introduced them,
(18:42):
which is why, you know, when you guys think about it,
why did Keith come in? You know, you had the
ex husband. Did he ever show up? I don't even yes,
Oh my god, I love Linda. He would show up
to he would show up to work with his surf
board and b m W convertible audience, you know, and oh,
(19:05):
there's there's Heather in her Porsche. A good story about
Heather's Porsche. I'm jumping around, I was.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I was.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
I had written and directed an episode. It was really
late late in the in the run of the show,
and we were out at the beach House and we
were on and we were shooting a scene where she's
at a door and she says something and then she
goes out the you know whatever that front door was
and Lee's and uh, I have noise in my head,
sat under what that is? And Forrest calls over and
he goes, it's her car. I go, it's her car
(19:40):
and they go. He goes, somebody turned off Heather's car
and they turned it off. And so she set her line,
went out the door, closed the door, and then she's
standing out there and I say print and I hear
in the headseto. They backed it up right almost to
the door. So she got in the car and boom,
(20:00):
she was gone. I thought, it's really come to this.
It's like, I'm only going to work to the very
last second.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
They were a long hours.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Oh I know, I know. Look when I started to direct,
I realized really how awful it was for you guys.
The doing scenes on the on the beach and during
El Nino with Heather, and she wore she wore ugs,
you know, and they showed up in like a key
shot and we go, oh, she's supposed to be barefoot
in the Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Speaking, because that's all the last part of Melrose. Do
you feel like it was really different two different shows.
I mean a lot of people on the writer stuff
had gone, a lot of actors.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
You know, we did so many episodes, as you guys know,
I know you've talked about double ups, and for us,
we had to write them that fast. Yeah, a lot
of inexperienced writers and very little rewriting more rewrite on
every show I've ever worked on, you know, just just
notes and you know, inner workings with the writers. But
(21:08):
you know, we would have to rewrite and hold the
hands of young writers just to get the scripts, you know,
get enough scripts ready to go. Uh. And we plotted
them one after the other, and we got to the
point where we could plot a show, you know, for
an outline, in a day, day and a half. We
we would then take a few days off to write
and take a breath, but then we would jump in,
(21:31):
you know, and my everyone said I was really good
in the room. But you know, and I've always kind
of had that reputation and I, and I thought, what
do I tell young writers now, because you know, I've
mentored a number of them now, And I said, well,
when the day ends at you know, seven or whatever
the writer's room, we're all exhausted, we're going home. There's
going to be some question about like, well, what's Sydney
(21:54):
going to do tomorrow? And you know, you know she's
trapped in this tunnel and how are we going to
get her out? What does this mean? You know? And
all the writers would come back, think, get their coffee
and say, okay, now what were you going to do?
I would go home and sit, you know, blank stare
you know, my wife always going he's writing again, you know,
(22:14):
and and sit and think and then I would have
the solution. So we start the meeting. I go how
about this? And I would go, oh my god, where
did you get that? I go, well, you know, it
took a little while when I was alone, and I
did it, but yeah, it might have been so priting.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
But how far ahead were you plotting?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Because we talked about, you know, when Marcia came in
and she's got the early scenes with Thomas, or when
Laura came on, would you see someone who was like
a shorter arc and you'd see something and go oh
and get a storia.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
And then we would and then we would change. Yeah,
it's when did.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You know that you were going to bring Laura back?
Because she was so adorable on the show, But did
you know right then?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
It was you know, I can't think specific episodes, but
I remember that you had been in in Michael's It
was you were hired on a short run, as I recall,
I don't know how many episodes.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Two episodes as a guest in the first season, and
that was it, and.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
That was it? Was it the first season or the
second season where you were walking away from the house,
you know, you walk away from the beach house and
Michael was looking out the window and you were kind
of dancing. Yeah, okay, so its being in the second season,
and you know, we used to play tricks in the
mixing booth, which is something Chipped and talked about because
(23:31):
he wasn't there, but we would, you know, we put
farts in you know, I mean the sound guys would
put farts into the most the first one. The first
one came really early because they knew that I loved it,
you know, and Frank two that we would laugh and Darren,
I mean we all just.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
You think that Sydney was dancing down the beach and
she was making sarting.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
But the first one we did was was Andrew and
he bent over and he opened refrigerator. I think it
ended up in the putting credits to get some orange
juice or something and he bends over and to get
the orgins and they just put a little you know literally,
you know, farts make people laugh. So we would just
sit there and laugh and laugh and laugh.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You can't leave it.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
We take it out.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
You have the they.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Have it on a stema and they pull it out.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
But you know, I will say this, having worked on
two and a half men, they do put them in
and they keep them in.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
They just they just add them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
It's like, oh, could you not please not? Yeah, like
they that's what they do and keep it in.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
That's just But they did one with you. It was
the first one that we called it a talking you know,
goof and it's that as you were walking off the beat,
walking down the beach, you were going you would recorded
during you know, during when you were looping, you'd recorded
this whole thing about I'm going down the beach. Here,
I go down the beach. Darren Starr is going to
(24:58):
really put me in a lot of episodes. Now, you know, boy,
I mean you just.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Talked and you did that.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Somebody asked me to do that, and looping and I
did it.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah you don't remember.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
I mean it sounds possible, it sounds good for you,
and somebody asked me to do it and Granted.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Now did you because we noticed in watching it that
all of a sudden, it's like eight nice kids trying
to make it and all of a sudden, there's an
episode where it's just I think it was me and
Andrew and you and Grant, Right, all of a sudden,
it's just these romances against each other.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
Yeah, because like carrying through they were.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, like they were like there were just two sexy.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's just everybody. It was me and Keith, So it's
just it's just make out to make up everything. Did
we do anything but make out these No?
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Well, you know what what happened at the end once
we turned into a sob the triangles start to Crisco.
We'll give Jane sister. We need this marriage is so boring.
We need to do something. They've had a miscarriage. We're
out of story, so I just want to read the
paper everywhere. So so so we were, you know, we
(26:15):
started experimenting with it, and Marcia was one and you
were the other. Marcia came in two show arc and
it was just supposed to be a slight flirtation and
it was I think it was Nancy Malone. And I
did the casting, so she had a co producer and
the director of the casting. You know, there weren't the
line of executive producers. No one was there. And she
(26:39):
walked in and I went, oh my god, she's Nicole Kidman,
only I think she's actually more beautiful and I and
then she gave this really good performance and we go great,
you know. So she did her scenes and I'm telling everybody,
look at dailies, look at this person. So right away,
you know a few of us went, oh my god,
lightning in a bottle. This is great. And we thought,
(27:00):
and this is what we used to mess with originally
to yeah to the the couple.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, because we've seen her on and it's so small.
I mean we saw her two different episodes.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
She's in an elevator, there's a scene where she's literally
in an elevator and she just looks at him and
he looks at her. I mean, and I remember thinking,
oh my god, it was all subtext.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
It was possibility, was there.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, she's disappeared, so yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
And she disappeared, and it took a while for us
to get her to come back, I mean, or to
get people to say, yeah, there's really something here, and
then you know the rest, and then we killed her
off and.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Then you need the whole started the whole Melrose, and
then why not Sydney and Kimberly?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Why not both crazy? Still waiting who did you have
an affair with? First? I don't remember, you know, that's
I think Michael didn't.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I don't think it was I think it was you.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
And then after you, I don't remember.
Speaker 6 (28:06):
Yeah, I feel like I feel.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Like somebody in this room is not on top of.
Speaker 6 (28:09):
Things, watching in real time, and we're just not there yet.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
So getting back to what you said, because it's really interesting.
So we have the meaning tonative. So so we said, okay, uh,
you know, and the first thing you do is you
create triangles, quadrangles, you bring in the bedroom so to speak.
I'm trying to be when do we even get rid
of the bedroom. It's I know, well, once we started,
we never did. And you know, the the initial concept was,
(28:39):
you know, a platonic relationship between you know, and Darren
always told me it was the platonic relationship he had
with you when you were roommates, that that was the
influence of the show.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Remember, well, do you remember I remember him saying he
based Allison on me.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
We did.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We lived in a tiny little apartment. He had a
guy roommate. I have a girl roommate.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
We shared one bathroom, I believe, in this tiny little
right off UCLA because we're uc together.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
And uh, I mean, but I don't see how it
was me because it wasn't He wasn't. I not his type, Billy.
Those two kind of moon for each other. But that's
not it obviously.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But was that always the plan or was it just
that Andrew and I fell into bed so quickly.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
They so interesting I thought it took forever to get
you to a bit I remember.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
I mean, and you're talking about on camera the show
in real life, it was like we wanted to bring
the show to.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
For a long time. And I'm a professional, I'm like,
oh my god, it was episode two.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Well it was. It was like two, I go, we
can't keep these guys platonic for long, I mean on
the show as characters, I mean, and so we thought, okay,
and you know, well, well we'll build to it. So
we put every kind of a you know, soap impediment
between the two of you, and it really it really worked.
I mean it really worked.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Heather.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Heather was you know, no different than Marsha Cross. I mean, yes,
she was the great Heather Locklayer. And there was you know,
I mean the casting of Heather. The writers were really
had nothing to do with it, including Darren for a while.
He might you know, correct me, and I just don't know.
But it was like we created the character first. We didn't. Wow,
(30:28):
somebody didn't come to us and say create a character
for Heather Locklayer. No, because you we said okay, well
and then I guarantee this was me. But you were
working you know, in an ad agency and with Lucy.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Every year.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, Deborah, and you know that was good. But it
was good on an episodic basis. It was she's a
small part. You two, you don't get along. She's an
evil boss, a Devilwar's product. Uh, you know, and that
that's a you know, episodic kind of a relationship. And
so when we turned it into a soap, we said,
(31:07):
we should get rid of Lucy and we should bring
somebody in who wants you know, who tortures you, but
wants your guy, you know, and that will slow down
Billy and Allison is if we bring somebody between him
who's beautiful, who he falls in love with and makes
all that stupid mistake and then it sends you to
the keys of the world and all of that. So
(31:29):
it kind of it happened that way. And then we
started casting and we actually did read some actresses I remember,
and then you know, with just you know, the lowly
producers and uh and then Aaron calls up and says,
how about Heather Lockleyar, I mean, he really, I'm doing
my errand imitation have we've done it years respect for
(31:50):
the you know, the dearly departed. But he said, guys,
you know Heather, she's she's great, she's magic, you know,
those eyes, and you know she's been real good for me.
She's my lucky penny, you know. And we had this
like conference call where we're all listening to this and
going oh okay, all right, uh, you know, and then
hung up the phone. We go, you know, she's going
(32:11):
to take over the show, you know, thank god, you know,
yea over things. Yeah, no, and uh and then we
all calmed down and then uh, Aaron had sent down,
you know, a VHS of a movie. She'd just done
something up in you know, movie of the week up
in Canada, and she she had done it. And we
(32:34):
looked at her and she looked fabulous.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, she didn't look any older.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
I thought, oh my god, yeah, she looks amazing, amazing.
So so you know, we hired her. And then she
didn't want to be a bitch, and you know, so
we did some last minute rewriting which we weren't used
to make her not a bitch. And then you know,
we're looking at the cuts, going, it doesn't matter what
we wrote, it's coming out out. You know. The subtext
(33:02):
she she just she knew how to put. She was
the rival, you know, she was going to be a
little troublemaker, and you know it was I.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Thought it was her natural sweetness that sort of shone
through because you wanted to hate her, but you couldn't
fight because she was saying to Alison, is it okay?
There something going on? And Allison kept stumbling over herself. Yeah, yeah,
that's interesting that you wrote it that way. But then
has there such a good bitch later?
Speaker 5 (33:25):
So yeah, but yeah, I mean she developed that way
once the you know, once the blinders are off. I mean,
when she slept with Billy, you know, it was like, okay,
you can't.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
Keep playing it, and she kept throwing it in your
face and yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:38):
And you'll have the proverbial wish that she'd never been born.
I wrote that line, that's right, it's a it's a
line that I taught writing at Chapman College for two
years a while back, while I was doing the Secrets
of Self Springs. But I would show them clips of Melrose.
(34:01):
You know, uh, you know these are young, you know,
they all are all gonna be great screenwriters in their minds,
you know, and uh, and I show them the line.
But I would show I'd show clips from YouTube because
there's no way that they would you know, read, or
that I could be able to find the script. And
the one I would do is is Heather backs you
into a corner at D and D. There were like
(34:23):
five of them after I wrote mine. Everybody started to
write it, and it's the thing. She goes, I'm gonna
make I'm gonna make your life so miserable, and then
you'll have that proverbial wish you'd never been born? Do
you remember? Was great?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I don't like And we said.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
It was the you know, there were certain you know
moments we call them. You know, Uh, that's Melrose, we
would say, and we go that scene, we go, that's Melrose.
We're just sitting in the editing room. We go, that's
me and what's his name on Channel five? Who just
passed away? Yeah, yeah, he did his quote of the week. Uh,
(35:06):
you know, so we would all, you know, the competition,
you know, like that line.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Didn't Sydney say to her own mother, get back on
your broomstick and fly back.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
That famous life life? I think Darren wrote that, I
don't remember. Yeah, it wasn't Frank. Frank. Frank was so
in the beginning uncomfortable with all of it. There was
a great, a great moment. Frank, he's not gonna be listening,
but if he is, he'll go, I'm gonna call Chuck.
(35:37):
But we were. It was his first episode. I think
that he wrote that's like episode eight, I want to say, uh,
and he had jake probably your door or it might
have been your door. I don't know whose doory was that,
but he was saying and he recited poetry.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, we were all like, oh Cashmire lyrics, cashmre.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Sweater and he does the thing.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
But anyhow, it was so not what we've been doing
up until then. It was. It was well written. Frank.
That was his first script. And so we're in we're
in the editing room looking at it and going cut it, Frank,
cut it, cut it, cut it. Just having walk up,
We'll just you know, cut all the dialogue and just
(36:25):
a look and then we'll be out. You know, I
mean it was, it was. It was fine, but Frank's going, no, no, no, no,
it's the whole crux. It's the whole thing. It's the
whole theme that poem. I love that poem. I've read
read that poem to my wife and she said yes
when we got married. Anyway, he was passionate about.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It so well, the girls loved it, and.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
I had bike liked it. You know, I think, you know,
I think it was it was you know, I don't
remember other people's reaction to it, except Darren was a
little like there was always a little like this with Frank.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And uh, how long did it take for Frank to
come around?
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Well, no, this is this is a story. So you know,
we would all we would march up, you know, got
in the gutter, you guys. It was almost every week,
but we would be taking a producer's cut up to
Aaron for him to do his cut. Uh, you know,
and and I mean I have a lot of stories
about those. We'd all sit on the long couch and uh,
(37:26):
the editors would be there and all of us chip
for a while. But then I think year two he
stopped coming. But we'd all be sitting on the couch
and Duke would be there. I mean, it was it
was the brain trust and we would turn down the
lights and then Kenny his his his post guy would
run the thing, you know, and you go and stop,
don't go for me there, you know, and you go
(37:51):
and then you'd watch it and then you know, you
kind of watch it by act and he'd sometimes stop
twice in the whole episode and go a great episode guy.
Sometimes he'd you know, twenty times he was having a
bad day. We were screening Frank's episode, you know, and
it was going along fine, and it came to that
scene and the big log speech at Grant given it
(38:14):
us all and doing the poem, and in the in
Aaron's office, you had a different feeling for the show.
It wasn't necessarily you know, it's like, what is he
going to think of it? Because he didn't you know,
he loved the show, but he saw it in context
of nine to two, one zero and other shows that
were really very different, and we wanted to be very different.
(38:37):
And so Frank he just I could demonstrate, but it's radio,
but he just lowered his head and put his head
in his hands. Because Aaron stopped afterwards.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Oh and you just feel it.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
He goes, guys, guys, and Frank just goes down like this.
Aaron looks looks at Frank, and you know, he hadn't
known him for very long, you know, none of us,
and we're all looking at Frank, and I thought, oh
my god, he's having like a nervous breakdown, or he's
he's going to start crying. I don't know what he's
(39:10):
gonna do. And and Aaron goes looks at me, and
I go, I don't know, I don't know what's wrong,
you know, and everybody, and I remember Darren. Darren would
just get so amused by these things. Nothing really bothered him,
and he would just sit there certain things. Bother memore
when he took out a phone one day about something
or other. I don't remember what early on, but we're
(39:34):
sitting there and then Frank just gets I go I
was the one who said, Frank like a father to
a kid. Frank, and he put his head up and
he goes, cut it, just cut it, and goes, well,
we agree on that. But it stayed. It stayed. I
(39:57):
think that Aaron had a change of mind. It stayed.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It did seem I mean, it worked for us.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
It wasn't the show. I mean, it wasn't what we'd
been doing up until then. No, it was very.
Speaker 6 (40:09):
They're also looking at it thirty years later, going oh
that's so sweet and that works. But maybe at the time, yeah,
we know, I think everybody may have been watching it differently.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
So it was like, what was.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
That screaming guitars? I mean we were we were more
screaming guitars now seen over two pages. That was my rule.
I said, you know, this audience they're going to lose interest.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
And it was the whole poem. It wasn't just like,
oh yeah, a couple of a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
You know, he was this like literate writer, this you know,
fancy writer that comes in and.
Speaker 5 (40:38):
Deals with you guys.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I know, I'm just trying to get some freaking poetry
in the show.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And you're like, no, he got down in the mud
with us pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
But we're coming to the end of our time, so
we want to get some really important questions, like what
was you remember the craziest storyline that you liked the
most or hated the most, Like what do you remember as.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
A thing that you couldn't get in?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Maybe, Oh, that's a great question. So that's like nine
questions in one.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Yeah, we'll start with I couldn't get in And it's
the very last episode of Melrose and we wanted Courtney
to come back. Yeah, did they offer you money? Did
it ever?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Get to the know they wanted me to come back.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I was working on Alan mcbill at the time, and
that schedule was crazy and we just couldn't make it work.
And I remember trying to like, if I could get
there by the end, I could do something and we
were we were like eighteen hour days on the show.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
So I'm so bummed.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
I have the scene and we were going to bring
Billy back to We were going to bring them both
and Marcia uh and and sorry, well you could have
brought she was dead one three.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, I was so we couldn't get I couldn't get off.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
Set literally, So so I wrote and directed the episode.
And there was a scene in a bar, yes, and
and and I had something. No, there was just an
empty stool, and I had the camera moves by and
stops and there's a bar with it just one stool,
you know, there are no other stools or there were
two stools, and it was going to be a Billy
and Alison moment. And I just had it. And I thought,
(42:15):
I'll always know that you know what that means. But
you know, so favorite favorite storyline was memorable. There were so.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Many that you like, people like that were that you
were that were the most fun.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Like I think of the building blowing up.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
Yeah yeah, I mean the building. Everybody's made a big
deal of it, and it was you know it was
during the Oklahoma bombing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did except
the uh certainly on the production side, but uh that
we were going to do it at the end of
the season, but because of the Oklahoma bombing, we just
had her go it gets worse, which is my favorite
(42:55):
line on the show ever. I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
That's great.
Speaker 5 (42:58):
You know, it goes this is ah, this is very bad.
She goes, No, it gets worse. That's great.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, who did Joe's baby? Let's give her a baby?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Oh yeah, that was get Let's have her.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
That's when I went on Models Inc. But I was
part of I was part of that. Yeah. Yeah, that
was a lot of Carol Mendelssohn. I think she came on,
you know, she had no experience and so but I'd
worked on Gabriel's Fire with her and I had suggested her.
I said, you're going to need someone to replace me.
I go. She has taped every episode of General Hospital.
(43:34):
She is a total soap fan, even though she writes
crime shows. And so they brought her in and you
know she was.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So you left as a writer producer for a while
to go do Models Inc.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
Off the season. Then I came back season later.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, and did you stay till the end the last
of the seven seasons?
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:52):
And how did it feel for you when it shifted,
because we talk a lot about you know, we left,
you left after four, we left after five, Like what
did that?
Speaker 5 (44:02):
It was? Yeah, it did?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Which your real question to ask questions? My question was
where the three of us are very favorite.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Yeah, you know, we get down to like why did
you leave? And stuff? I know Chip talked to you
about that, and you know, sometimes it's money. Sometimes it's
some creative decision. And I honestly, with you, I don't remember,
and with you I kind of remember. I remember being
completely against it, but there were powers that be that
(44:36):
were I don't know if it was money or what
it was, but they were, you know, and and you
know Grant leaving, Uh, you know it. You know as writers,
you're just for writers. It's an opportunity to bring in
new characters that you know, you guys, we ran you
through a soap mill like unbelievable. You know, marriages and
(45:00):
you know deaths and crime and you know, god knows what,
going crazy and stuff. And you get to a point where, wow,
what did we do with the next You know, we
can't rehabilitate them or make this past go away and
ignore it like they do in daytime. So but so
it was a it was a case of, you know,
(45:22):
in some cases like we don't have any more story,
you know, we got to go in a different direction
of people. We got to give these put the new
people through new scenary people. But I remember I was
the one who said I took it like personally every
time somebody left, because I said, oh my god, you know,
I was here. I wrote to episode two and you know,
and and I just remember the whole journey and it's
(45:45):
like those for initial people walking down the street, you know,
walking down Melrose room was and it became and it evolved.
And believe me, I loved every person we brought on,
and I liked all of their their stories. You know,
we jumped the shark so many times that you know,
like when do we first jump the shark? And uh, you.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Know, I.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Like and you know, I wrote and directed that last
episode and uh it was so sad, you know, and
and uh it was so sad. I made sure the
last shot was of Heather, you know. And I think
the feeling was at Fox as long as Heather's on
the show, it doesn't matter who else is on the show.
They had they had moved on in their mind, but
(46:31):
you know, the ratings were starting to go down, you know,
and then the last year, I know why it was canceled,
why we didn't get an eighth season, which we really wanted.
Uh it was the show between the lawsuits and the stuff,
it was really tainted, and you know, and quite frankly,
they said, we can't afford to pay Heather.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, a lawsuit, the pregnancy lawsuit.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Yeah, the pregnancy lawsuit. And then uh the Jerry, remember
the assistant director Jerry. Yes, yeah, I was. I was
all a part of that. But luckily, you know, that's
what sent Frank and Chip and Harry, Oh god, Harry,
very greatest guy.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
We have to have you back because clearly you have
like a treasure trope more.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
We could do this.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
I didn't even pick up my questions. I don't know,
we just do.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
I have one more question, just based on something you
were describing as just the process of the writer's room,
the task of writing the episode would rotate amongst the writers.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (47:43):
But like, did you find that you had like a
character or a voice that were the writers that were
particularly good at writing this particular voice?
Speaker 5 (47:51):
And you know, did you have to be a writer
in the show. You had to. You had to be
able to write everybody. You know. I loved I like writing, Courtney.
I loved writing uh you know, Amanda, I you know,
I would say, uh in latter years, I loved Jack
Wagner because he was just so disgusting, you know. I
(48:13):
mean I thought, I thought I can just let out
my ikey icky, you know. But but and and there
were writers who loved to write certain things, you know. Uh,
I know, Carol loved writing Daphanie and all the women,
(48:33):
and uh, Darren, I think the original core group was
always his favorite. But uh, you know, but you know,
writing it, well, you had to write every character, you know,
And and we were going so fast. We'd break these things,
you know, up on a big board and then send
the writer off. And I was always writing. I mean
(48:54):
I was writing an episode, or I was something with
shooting that I wrote, or you know, and that was
true of all of us, you know.
Speaker 6 (49:00):
And because you were writing at such a pace, did
you did you have to adjust and pivot when you go,
oh my gosh, the storyline that we thought was going
in this one way, and look at how it's turning.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Out, did you have to go a pivot?
Speaker 5 (49:11):
And like completely, I mean a lot. And I think
that was one of the keys to the show's success
is that we were very fluid. We we didn't get
locked into stuff, you know, something better came along or
something didn't work, we would just you know, change gears.
The Marsha thing, we kill her, you know, in this accident.
(49:32):
And actually the way that happened was was a little
like Chip told it, but it was. It was actually
Darren and I and I think somebody else I don't
know who had dinner. This was a yeah, it was
during Frank, but Frank wasn't there. He was home. We
had we had a really nice you know, you always
eat well when you're around there. So we went to
(49:54):
in the valley somewhere, you know. We went to a
great French French meal and a bottle wine, and then
we drove out to watch Marsha get killed in this
in the spectacular car crash that did go beyond it,
and we just sat and talked to Marsha for the
longest time, and I never really had talked to her much,
and you know, and she went back and we shot
the scene and I looked at Darren. I go, let's
(50:17):
not kill her, and he goes, Chuck, we just killed
her on the film. And I said yeah, I said,
but you know, we we can keep her alive and
have her come back from the dead. You know, have
you the favorite it's a favorite story. I don't even
think they can do it anymore. They've done it so often.
Nobody really dies, you know. Yeah, and uh, and we
(50:38):
said our first thought was we were sitting there and
we go, Okay, we got to sell Aaron on this,
you know, got to sell the network on this. And
then I said we got to sell Frank because he
wrote the next episode where there's an open casket and
there's a scene in the hospital. Yeah, and and all this,
all this stuff, and so that we were all scratching
(51:00):
our ads, going, uh, you know, I mean, Darren and
I were going, how are we going to sell this?
How are we going to get this done? And so
we uh, what we did was we went back and
talked to Frank and he was very upset, and I said,
close the casket, put her in a coma, so she's
(51:21):
in a hospital bed, and then and then she's when
she's in the hospital bed, you did the scene where
he comes back and I think, this is the way
we did it. And we come back and Michael comes
back and the bed is empty, and they say she
passed away, and and Frank's going, yeah, and I said, well,
she didn't pass away. Her mother came and got her.
(51:41):
And her mother we've never even mentioned her mother. She's
in the Midwest somewhere, and she hated Michael, and Michael
did this to her. So so her daughter wasn't going
to die in front of him, so she took her
back to die, and then she wakes up in the coma,
you know, and then the you know, the the you know,
(52:05):
we wrote the scar but everybody went the set chip
and all them they were way over the top. We go,
oh my god, who's going to buy this? And is
this too much? Yes?
Speaker 3 (52:20):
And the place that's why, that's a perfect place to
end it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
That's Chuck, Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (52:29):
Would love We know there's many more stories, Okay, yeah,
so many season two.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I mean, we could do a specials.
Speaker 5 (52:40):
We could do a special one on models.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
They really do our listeners really and fans that write
in or comment really ask about the behind the scenes
everything that you talked about. So many people are curious about,
you know, they're like, oh, these guys are cute to
look at.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
But you know, you're like, we're in the room when
it happened, so we have more and.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
We make it. We can't have that old
Speaker 2 (53:06):
I was in the room where it a thank you Jack, Thanks,
thank you
Hosts And Creators
Laura Leighton
Daphne Zuniga
Courtney Thorne-Smith
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