A Rigid, Sterile Look at Kissing

A majority of human cultures practice kissing in one form or another. But why do we kiss? Is the behavior instinctive or learned? In this episode, amateur philematologists Josh and Chuck take a look at the biology, sociology and pyschology of kissing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, Charles W. Chuck Bryant is
across from me out of kissing distance, and uh, I

(00:25):
guess that makes this stuff you should know the non
kissing edition about kissing, which is every single one of
our shows thus far. Body Farms came close. Yeah, you're right,
I've urged to make out. Remember I took my shirt off.
Oh that's right. Yeah, And you're like, I'm not doing this.
Well that quilled that quilled my urge to make out.

(00:46):
I'm like, oh really, yes, that's what you want and
you're like, no, put it away. Hey, hey man, it's
been a big month and we're at the end of it,
aren't we. Yes, October October has been nutty on it.
We've been on the TV to twice twice. Yeah, remember
good Day It like yeah, actually he forgot about. Yes,

(01:08):
we were on TV twice, Yes, we were. We went
to New York. Did he see didd c to South Caroline? Well,
when I us went to South Carolina, more on that later.
And um, this is the end, Chuck, this is this
is the last work related thing we have to do
this month. Do you know what stinks is October is
my favorite month and always has been. And I don't
feel like I really got to enjoy October this year

(01:30):
that much. Yeah. I've had Decembers like that. For me.
I loved Christmas time, the holiday season, and um, I've
had a December like that and I was like this,
someone owes you. Yeah, that's how I feel the universe.
Does the universe owes me in October? Although it's not
like we were I mean we had a lot of
great times in New York and stuff. It's not like
it was an awful experience. No, But I know what
you mean, Like you have a certain month out of

(01:51):
the year that's dedicated to certain things, and if you
don't pursue these certain things, then you what's life worth? Exactly?
But here we are in November almost and uh, we're
getting back to normal, or at least whatever the new
normal is. Yeah. So I'm excited. Yeah, me too. You're excited,
and we're talking about kissing today. Right. This is a

(02:11):
very um hard, clinical look at the science of kissing. Yes, which,
by the way, we should say the science a scientific
study of kissing is called fillymatology p h I L
E M A. So we're fillimatologist for the day. Uh
So let me go ahead, Josh, and then just start

(02:32):
out clinically saying that anthropologists no one knows for sure
why we kiss to begin with. There's some theories though,
and one of them anthropologists came up with was that
back when we were evolving humans, but we um that
mothers would regurgitate or not regurgitate, but they would chew
up their food. That's regurgitating. I thought regurgitating was when

(02:54):
you literally like threw it up. Okay, you're right, yes, okay,
But that mothers would take their new more and they
would chew up their food to then place like a
bird would into the baby's mouth. And that that evolved
even once the kid learned how to eat, into just
affectionate caretaking, right and um, it was a way to
reassure the kid. It was something that the kid, I imagine,

(03:16):
would had come to associate with pleasurable close feelings. Right
that spitting food into your mouth, well exactly, but that's
the learned behavior idea, right, and it's the big, one,
big flaw with it there is and it is are
you setting me up? I'm like, you're pointing at Yeah.

(03:37):
The problem with that is there are some cultures, um,
indigenous cultures today that still do that with their food
and um, some of them do not kiss until Westerners
came along and they were like, you should try kissing.
It's rad right, And the people kissed and they went,
this is rad right, and that was that. But since
not all of them do that, then that's not proof.

(04:00):
But it kind of lends itself to saying, maybe it's
not a learned behavior. Um. I had a like, this
makes sense to me, But I also it makes me wonder, um,
if behavior evolves, right, Um, isn't it possible that that
doesn't always evolve over the same timeline and all cultures
in all locations. Well, that's what I thought. It didn't
necessarily prove something, but it is a big it's a

(04:22):
big flaw that people can just like pick apart like
so many scats. What about the other side of the coin. Now,
the other side of the coin is that it's instinctive
and there's a lot of evidence that um, kissing is instinctive.
Elsewhere in the animal kingdom, Um, you see like tigers nuzzling.
It is um apparently snails rob antennae, which is super cute.

(04:44):
Have we ever seen it? Uh? Yes, I have, like
the slow motion I think Discovery actually had some of that.
Uh it's it's actually rather or maybe it was that
movie Microcosm, but it looks really lurid. When you see
two snails combining themselves. Ye, up close, it's like, oh
my god, this is clinical and sterile. Look at things.

(05:05):
I think birds touched beaks. Yeah, and it's it's all
over the animal kingdom. In a lot of cases, what
you're seeing is a like smell, their scent glands located
in the face of some animals in that area. Yeah.
So when you see two tigers, knows only they're like
smelling one another's pheromones or some scent. That's pleasurable. But

(05:29):
the point is is while they may not be kissing
as we know it, they're still engaged in pretty much
the same behavior that establishes bonds, that reinforces trust, and
that shows that you are close to that that other animal,
that mate, or that kin folk. Yeah, didn't you have
something on the bona bow Apes. Yes, I thought you

(05:52):
were telling me something about that earlier. I wasn't you weren't. No,
you haven't me confused with someone else. Well, these things
kissed like crazy. They do, and they kiss regardless of sex,
regardless of status in the in the pack? Is it
a pack of apes? The family, the tribe? I think
it's a family, So I mean, trust me, we're gonna

(06:14):
get email on this one. They kiss all the time,
though they do it to reduce tension after a fight, Uh,
to reassure each other, um the social bonds and for
no reason at all, you know, the reduced tension after
a fight. Do you know who? That reminded me of?
Ronny and Donny Galleon? Remember they kiss and makeup after
a fight, the world's oldest can joined twins. Yeah, very

(06:35):
sweet story. They're still with us, aren't they as far
as I know? Oh goodness, Chuck. Their birthday just happened.
They'd be fifty eight now, that's right. Yeah, we need
to check in on them, not that they know who
we are. We're just the creepy guy who followed them
home from school, all right. So there's there's um arguments
for and against we should say. Part of the problem

(06:58):
with um with saying that kissing is instinctive, it's it's
very difficult to prove um and the fact that about
of all cultures across the world kiss, So if it's instinctive,
what's up with the other ten percent? Well, they I
think they found some cultures in Asia and where else?

(07:18):
South America? South America, but um, I think Africa, right,
And they said that while it's it's not completely conclusive
that they do not kiss, some of them may not
think it's appropriate to like share that with the white
dude that got off the plane that's asking them about it, right,
you know, So maybe they don't kiss and tell. But generally,
I mean everywhere I'll look, said, of all cultures kiss,

(07:40):
So that's where we're gonna go with. Yeah, and in
a kissy face culture, which is most of them, as
we've seen. Um I found Chuck that people spend as
much as two weeks out of their lives kissing, which
you want to hear something depressing. That's about as much
time as we spend waiting for red lights in our lifetime.
I wonder how much time is been kissing at red lights.

(08:01):
I don't know it's a great question. I was wondering
how much more we would kiss if we spent less
time at red lights. Yeah, like if maybe it would
be like three weeks in one week or something like that.
It's a good point. So there are people, as we said, uh,
philematologists who study the science of kissing, of kissy faces
nous uh. And one of those groups is the Kinsey Institute,

(08:23):
named after the famous sex researcher Alfred Kinsey. And they've
basically found that there are three factors that contribute to
the experience of a kiss, right, yes, and they are biological, psychological,
and social. Yeah, psychological, Um, there's a couple of factors
within that sub factors. Um. It depends on how you're

(08:46):
feeling at the time and how you feel about the
person of how it's going to affect you. Obviously you've
heard the expression like kissing your sister. That's if you're
being kissed by someone you don't want to be kissed by,
you're gonna have a completely different reaction slee than when
you're being kissed by someone you really want to kiss.
And your emotional state at the time you're being kissed
has a lot to do with it as well. Right,

(09:08):
there's a lot of um physiological processes that your body
undergoes when you're kissing or being kissed. We'll talk about those,
uh in um a little greater detail in a second.
And then there's social factors like how your society views kissing,
like is your first kiss going to be this magical
experience in society? Who probably going to be looking forward

(09:29):
to it so much pressure? Right? Is kissing extremely romantic?
Or is it kind of middle of the road? Um?
Is it taboo? All of these things are going to
have an effect on the psychological impact as well. So
there's sociology, biology, and psychology living in harmony on the
lips of all humans. Yes, and we should we should

(09:51):
point out that, um, that's not just for lovey dovey kissing.
That's actually for all kinds of kissing. So like when
a mommy kisses your booboo, those three factors are still
taking place, obviously, just in a non romantic nature, right,
different different contexts, different sensations, but still there's three different
aspects to all kisses, of what you're saying, no matter

(10:11):
what kind of kiss and they all all kisses amount
to something positive. They're all meant to reinforce some sort
of positive feeling, right, like love, reassurance right, or reassurement,
reassurement or romantic budding sexuality, all those things. Right that

(10:32):
when you place the word budding at the beginning of sexuality,
it just makes it so much more awkward. Right, isn't
that weird budding sexual It's it's weird, well, because it
implies everything that it is, which is youth. I don't
even know what's going on. It's budding, That's what I
think at least. Um, I guess, Chuck, we've reached the

(10:55):
point that we should talk about when people started kissing,
and um, we should say historians, anthropologists, psychologists. No one
has any idea exactly when people started kissing because we
can't even say whether it's instinctive or learned. Right, But
the earliest accounts that we have of kissing come about

(11:16):
thirty years ago. Uh, and it's described. It's not that
word isn't used obviously, um. But what people are taking
as a description of kissing appears in these ancient Vedic
texts out of India Sanskrit, Yes, I think they're in Sanskrit.
They called it sucking face back then it's involved into kissing. Uh.

(11:39):
After that it started becoming a little more prevate, prevalent
in art, in literature, that kind of thing, like in
a little text that might sound familiar with the Vatsi
Ya Yana Kama Sutrum uh a k A the Kama
Sutra a k A Penthouse letters. Yeah. Do you find

(12:00):
it funny that the book on sexual positions was written
three thousand years ago or more, um, sixth century a D.
What I find funny is that no one's really improved
upon this. You know, Tome, you pretty much wrote the

(12:20):
definitive book on sexual positions and sexuality. I just find
it interesting. But they also cover kisses, all kinds of
kisses in the Kamma Sutra, And that was a long
long time ago. Right, It was written standardized in the
sixth century a D. But it had been passed down
orally for centuries before that, right, Yes, And um, so
they think that probably, yeah, kissing. They they're not saying

(12:43):
it originated in India, but this is where the earliest
accounts are. So kissing originated in India. Well, and they
think that the anthropologists think it's a learned behavior, think
that Alexander the Great learned about it in India when
he invaded and was like, this is awesome, let me
go take this back to Greece, and that he did.

(13:06):
You know, I remember hearing a long time ago that
um kissing. I don't know where I used to get
these facts. I think it was the same place where
I heard that Um Genghis Khan killed one point eight
million people in an hour. But they said that kissing
uh was located only in the Mediterranean up until five
years ago, and that it is a a symbol of

(13:28):
our urge to cannibalize one another. Not true. I don't
think that's true at all. I don't either. So we're
in the Roman Empire now, and they kissed a lot.
They kissed as greetings, they kissed their rulers hands sign
of respect. It was out of respect. And they came
up with the three categorizations of kiss I know, Um,

(13:51):
the Romans really like to categorize things different types of love. Um,
this one is there's osculum, which is a kiss on
the cheek. There is besium, which is a kiss on
the lips. And then they're seeking guess this one cevolium. Yeah, yeah,
like that's that kind of kiss. Yeah, that's a deep kiss,

(14:13):
and it doesn't necessarily say anything about the French variety,
but um, I think that's just sort of implied, right,
And historians also suspect that UM, a lot of the
kissing traditions we still hold today in the modern era. Um,
we're founded originated in um rome, right, Like, there's a
kissing to seal a wedding, to end a wedding ceremony,

(14:38):
you may now kiss the bride apparently if you've made
out in front of a bunch of people, like you
were married room, Like I know, yeah, do you know
how many people would be married today? Lots of people,
a lot and divorced and married and divorced. And also,
since you said the sealed thing the sealed with a kiss,
we generally think of like a love letters seal with

(15:00):
the kiss. But back then they used to seal legal
documents with kisses, which is a little weird to me. Well,
it kind of points out it was weird to me too,
I'm thinking, Um, it points out how seriously people took
kissing back then it was relatively new, and like this
is a big new thing, or if if I should

(15:21):
say the learned behavior proponents are correct. It was relatively new,
and they're like, this is very important, it's very sacred um.
And speaking of sacred it um played a big role
in the uh, the Catholic Church, there was this thing
called the Holy kiss, right, yeah, the awesome um passes
and uh they kissed the Holy kiss. Basically they thought

(15:43):
you were transferring your spirit, well, the Holy Spirit, the
spirit of Christianity. Well, when I say the spirit, your spirit,
he said, yeah, no, the big one, okay, the Trinity,
the Dove, and uh they unfortunately, the Protestant Reformation killed
like everything else that was fun killed the Holy kiss

(16:04):
as well. Well, not just that it's um. It also
gave rise to articles like this because in fact, writing
a very sterile scientific article I'm kissing is a very
very Protestant thing to do. It's a very Protestant activity
to engage in. Ye, you're right, and I never thought
about that, but yeah, it went from like they the Christians,
the early Catholics kissed one another mass that was the

(16:25):
holy kiss um, and then the in the thirteenth century
the church was like, no, kiss this board instead, and
they call it a pack s board or sport. So
everybody kissed that, and then the Protestants came along and
they're like, no kissing. Everybody just stare forward, not even
the packs board, no pack sport. Really, there's no more kissing.
And then in Catholicism it finally just basically went to

(16:46):
the Pope's ring. That's what's kissed now, is the Pope's ring.
You know. I went to a church conference when I
was a teenager and they were playing music and it
was a big thing along type of thing, and they
said something about out. One of the guys says, you know,
don't stomp your feet to rhythmically because that's a little
too close to dancing. I remember that distinctly. Made it

(17:08):
a big impression on me. It was like foot loose, yeah,
and you were vow No, I started dancing. I started
Breakdancing's val oh name. Yeah, my buddy's working on that
remake right now with Zac Efron. No, he's not in it.

(17:29):
I'm just supposed to. He was first tapped to play it. No,
it's a bunch of unknowns and Dennis Quaid, Okay, he's
the preacher. Uh So let's talk about a little more
non fun sterile things like the orbicularis or us. Let's
see that the orbicularious hours. Well, yeah, there's certain muscles

(17:51):
that you use when you kiss, and in a very standard,
no frills kiss, the puckered kiss. That's the obiculary us
orris at work, that facial muscle. But a few people
kiss like that, they did, we would not reproduce right. Um,
So there's a bunch of other muscles involved. Um, one

(18:14):
of which, well several of which actually tilt your head
to the side, because apparently about three two thirds of
people who kiss, so two thirds of humans who kiss
tilt their head to the side, to the right, to
the rights. Yeah, and apparently we develop a preference for
this in utero. Isn't that weird? Yeah, but and it

(18:34):
seems so natural to me. I just tilted my head
to the left, and I can't imagine going to kiss
my wife and tilting my head to the left. Well,
one of the problems is, since everybody's tilting to the right,
if you tilted your head to the left, you'd go
in well at the same angle too. That's so awkward.
It is awkward. Like the teeth knock. That's when you
know things aren't gonna work out with the teeth knock. Yeah,

(18:55):
if that if that's happening early on, I think it
depends on the reaction. Well, you can laugh at off
and stuff, that's huge, but you should also kind of
sort of have that chemistry. I think innately, a teeth
knock is not a deal breaker. Wow, you're I'm pretty tough.
That's why I didn't date much. That's funny. I was
turning left and knocking teeth. They're like, look, Leslie, I'm

(19:16):
I'm very sorry. Like you're a very nice girl, and um,
I like your parents a lot. But um, your teeth
brushed against mine in one of our early kisses. They
just can't go anything. That's why I got married at
like thirty six. No teeth knocking. No teeth knocking. Kid. Uh,
do you want to cover those muscles? It's a lot
of boring names. No, but I'll talk about what they

(19:41):
what they do. Like them. There's other other muscles move
the lips around, so instead of just puckering, you can
be like one right, right, I just use several muscles,
muscle groups. Um. There's also ones that um pull the
corner of your mouth down and and lower your lower lip. Right.

(20:02):
The depressor angli oris apparently, if you hear the word
oris in reference to a muscle, it's a facial muscle
that is involved in kissing right, right. And then importantly,
I would say the genial glasses, stylo glosses, palatea glosses,
and higho glosses, all those muscles operate your tongue. If

(20:24):
if as Tracy Wilson, who wrote this article puts it,
if you decide to use it, right, if you're from
France and that's how you kiss, those four muscles are
are going to control your tongue. I was kind of
surprised at first it was those four muscles. But when
you look at the tongue, it's extremely malleable, and there's
all sorts of like you know, you can make You

(20:44):
can roll your tongue and make clovers out of your tongue,
and it's very specific, control, controllable, a piece of your body.
Digit Is it a digit? I guess have you ever
seen a tongue outside of the mouth? Um? What do
you mean? Like a surgical removed tongue, not a human one? Gross? Yeah?
I saw one at the Atomic Bomb Memorial Museum in Hiroshima.

(21:09):
The guy whose tongue was taken out. It turned like
black because he was exposed to radio activity. And I
can't I've seen two. This was one of two tongues
that I've seen completely removed, but there's like the soft
palates attached. It like spreads out and back. It's really
interesting looking crazy. Yeah, you don't want to see a
tongue outside of the both well, especially when that's you know,

(21:29):
was bombed, right, I'm sure that didn't help. Uh So
obviously Josh too, what happens when you kisses you You
like everything with the brain, you have to have them
the nerves from your face sending messages to your brain
telling your brain what's going on, and that stimulates a
lot of things like dopamine and serotonin. Oxytocin is becoming

(21:50):
an increasingly Yeah, that's a big one important neurotransmitters. The
deal there, Well, it creates some feelings of affection, attachment, loyalty. Um,
it's uh. They they think that love in a lot
of ways, especially intense early romantic love, resembles addiction. So
there's there's a lot of dopamine that gets released when
you see the person that you're attracted to. But then

(22:11):
over time, um, it can it turns into long lasting
companionship love that's toxic toacin at work. And it's also
very big in milk production as well, so it um
so it that's very strange that I would have done that,
but um it's it's present. It forces milk production. It's

(22:33):
also transferred from mother to child through breastfeeding, so it
promotes feelings of attachment through that as well. How about
that adrenaline, our old buddy with the flight, fight or
flight that we haven't talked about in a while, and uh,
all sorts of natural endorphins make that euphoric feeling come alive.
And not only that, it actually increases your heart rate

(22:56):
and your your blood starts pumping more and you're getting
more oxygen to your body just from kissing. Even if
you're you know, let's say, lying down, you know, lying down,
if you're in a prone position, let's say, and you're
kissing somebody, your heart rate is still get increases if
you were like exercising, right, I think you're prepping for
physical activity relations. I think so, thank you. Should we

(23:21):
mention the one study and I know we looked at
this when we did the webcast about the smell. Yeah,
This fascinates me. I have I want to believe it's
correct because it's just so it's elegantly simple. Yeah, but UM,
but I think you should take it. This is this
is yours, well, it's I think it's. The situation is, um,

(23:43):
you can reproduce, you can reproduce with somebody who has
a different immune system. If you reproduce someone with different
immune qualities that you have, you will produce a more robust,
healthier child, right because your kid's gonna have your immunities
in your husband's immunities or reproductive partners immunities combined, and

(24:06):
apparently can sniff this out supposedly. Here's the big problem
with that, Like, what you're talking about and what this
theory is based on is pheromones. And from what I understand,
we've been shown to have an organ that at one
time was capable of detecting pheromones, but that most humans,
not all humans, most humans aren't capable of using this
this naso pharynxul organ any longer. We'll just call it

(24:30):
the appendix. Okay, that's actually supposedly where um, I think
some sort of anybodies go to basically hide out and
UM generate back up and then go back and fight
infections and cancer and things. Again, I knew they were
kind of thought they had figured out the appendix. You
don't just go removing organs willy nilly just because we

(24:53):
don't realize what they're for. You know, it's like knocking
Pluto off the list of planets exactly. So were you
done with your smell thing there? Though, I'm done. Okay,
it was yours and I hijacked. I apologize for that, chuck.
That's all right. Um, there's been some recent studies in
the past year that just I'll throw out a couple
of stats from the University of Albany said that of
men and sixty six percent of women report that after

(25:17):
feeling attracted initially to someone, that the attraction ended after
the first kiss. Sixty of women. That's but that's weird.
Think about the I'm telling you know, but it's like
the immune protein idea, Like maybe these people had similar
immune proteins and they found that in the kiss, and
we're like, yeah, man, I'm looking for a more robust,

(25:38):
less weekly child. Right. Yeah, that's a good point. Uh.
And the same guy who did the uh, professor at
Albany that did that study said that he also thinks
that because saliva has testosterone, the fact that men prefer
like sloppy kissing and conceivably a more wet, uh saliva

(25:59):
ridden kiss means that they are trying to transfer testosterone
into the woman's mouth to trigger a sex drive. I
don't like an awful lot of conjecture. It's an awful
lot of conjecture. And another recent study in England, and
this was like today, I read this that apparently heterosexual

(26:19):
males in England don't mind kissing. Yeah, apparently it has
to do with their football culture, right. Yeah. They said
they interviewed a hundred and forty five college and high
school students, all of them straight as an arrow, and
that they scent they had engaged in sustained kissing with
another dude and didn't think it was a big deal.

(26:40):
And of athletes said they kissed another man compared to
eight percent of non athletes. So they theorize it starts
on the old soccer pitch. That's Gordon Ramsay's impact. So hey,
are you swinging Brits out there? Good? Any and Chuck.
I think that we should remain faithful to this article

(27:05):
and end this podcast, I'm kissing with. Some of the
diseases you can catch from kissing, go ahead. There's of
course mono nucleosis, the kissing disease mono. I've never had mono.
I have not either. That's drywall. I don't know if
that counts. Maybe we hit a stud. Uh. There's Herpes

(27:26):
simplex one a k A. Cold sores um meningitis, which
is nasty stuff, but apparently you can, uh, there's an
outside chance you can catch it kissing. H They think
that some of the bacteria that causes gastric ulcers can
be transferred from person to person via saliva and kissing.
And there is apparently one case recognized by the Centers

(27:51):
for Disease Control and Prevention here in Atlanta g a USA.
UM that one case of HIV has been reported that's
been transmitted through kissing. Wow, that's a downer. That's how
kissing works. Well, that means there's like some two open

(28:12):
sores at the same time in the mouth, right, I mean,
I guess HIV and AIDS first, Like really kind of
hit the public psyche. It was like can we sit
on toilets? We all just like shoot ourselves now, Like,
what are we gonna do, and kissing was a big one.
And then as as time went on, I remember somebody saying, like, um,

(28:32):
like the the stat was, you'd have to like transfer
a gallon of saliva to have a good chance of
of um, kissing HIV or contracting HIV from somebody through kissing.
But I'm sure, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure that
that it was through like from sore to sore something
horrible like that, through kissing, like I mean one case,

(28:54):
you know, all right, I'm just thinking about source kissing.
And yeah, So if you want to um read an
article read more about kissing, and possibly decided to never
kiss again after reading it, you can type in kissing
in the swing and search bar at how stuff works
dot com from Omas to the British. And since I

(29:17):
said that the British, that means it's time for a
listener me. All right, are they coming? They've already been here. Uh,
this is from Sarah and it's about jealousy and like
you predicted, Josh, We've had a lot of people right
in and said I agree with Josh, and a lot
of people said, I agree with Chuck. It's healthy. It
is so with that in mind, Sarah has to say

(29:41):
this us I have to agree with the notion that
small amount of jealousy is not only normal but healthy.
So she's in the joshin. I'm not talking about telling
your significant other that they can't go here, can't go
talk to that person based on jealousy and calling that
showing your love. I'm talking about having a twinge in
your gut when you see your here something that is

(30:01):
generally a threat. If you don't have any fear about
your partner ditching you, does that suggest that you don't
care if your partner leaves you, I see now? Or
does that mean you're not realistic? Maybe? Uh so, say
there's a bad day when you were a putts and
that handsome guy at the farmer's market smiles a little
too big at your wife and you see her in

(30:22):
fact that makes her feel pretty. If that doesn't affect
you at all, doesn't cause a little something in your gut,
then does that also mean that you'll miss the opportunity
to think, hey, maybe I should do a little something
to make your feel pretty? This is a great point.
Is this is an excellent point, And if you do
keep missing those opportunities, maybe you'll end up taking things
for granted. I've expressed uh and appreciated very small showings

(30:43):
of jealousy. Husband doesn't want to dance at work party,
so I say fine and I dance without him. He
sees a good looking guy come to dance near me,
and he suddenly feels like dancing with his wife. That
is a okay with me. Or when let's say my
husband has a grocery store girlfriend, the cute checker who
smiles at him especially, I have playfully shown a little
more PDA than usual when this happens, and I know

(31:06):
he gets a kick out of that. So, Sarah, I'm
down with that. I just don't call that jealousy. That's jealousy.
I don't think so. I think jealousy is a palpable
fear of losing somebody, and I don't I think that
there's just that these are different degrees. That that degree
is where I draw the line. And I don't call

(31:27):
this jealousy. I just call it playful married shenanigans. Everyone,
I would like to announce something, Um, Mr Charles W.
Chuck Bryant is now a convert to jealousy in a relationship.
There you go, thank you, Chuck, and that was very

(31:47):
nice of you to select that letter rather than rather
than one that was like Josh is wrong and here's
why that's coming up on the next one. Just kidding.
Thanks a lot, Sarah, appreciate the email. It was very
thoughtful and well informed. Uh, if you want to send
Chuck in me an email that's thoughtful and well informed
about say your first kiss, wrap it up. Send it

(32:09):
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