April 8, 2010 • 26 mins
Zoos are popular because they allow visitors to see wild animals from all around the world, but how does living in captivity affect the animals? In this episode, Josh and Chuck discuss the pros and cons of zoos.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, I'm welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me. Is always this
Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes this stuff you should know?
(00:23):
You know what? And saw Ronnie millsap this weekend. Shut up,
I swear to guy. Really? Yeah, he's still alive. Oh yeah,
he just had he just released a new gospel album.
Is he the Blind Guy? Yeah? Okay, yeah. Where where
did he play? I've got to know. Spindale, North Carolina.
I can say honestly that I've been to Spindale, North Carolina.
(00:44):
Did you go there to see him? Yeah? You mean
he's a big fan actually, and he's spent half an
hour talking about his life. That guy's had it rough man. Yeah,
you should check him out. He's interesting. I mean he
was part of my childhood for sure. You should have gone.
He played some old it. But he actually has a
podcast in case you Yeah, he's got a podcast. Yeah,
(01:06):
it's pretty good too. It's him like telling stories, talking
and then playing a song and like he'll talk to
somebody like off camera or off mike or whatever, like
what did I forget or something like that, and then
you'll hear something muffled and we're like, oh, yeah, okay,
and he'll start playing. Is it called millsappen? That's what
I call it. I think it's called like the Ronnie
Millstap Show or something. Yeah, and we met him too. Actually,
(01:31):
of course you're like eight people there. You could know
it was packed. We definitely skewed the median age tremendously. Yeah,
there was a lot of old folks there, but went
to Dollywood right afterwards. We were definitely the only people
from Atlanta there for sure. Cool. Yeah, Chuck, I love
that that intro. Thanks Chuck. Yes, have you ever seen
(01:53):
a chimpanzee masterbait? Uh? Yeah, I have you have. You're
not the first person I met who's seen that? What
you saw it at the zoo? Uh? Yeah? I mean
is there any other answer than yes it was at
a zoo. If I say it was hit my friend
Roger's house, authorities are going to show up at you
(02:15):
have seen that. I've never seen it. I think you've
seen on YouTube. See. I think that that is a
normal behavior, as I understand that they are primates after all,
as are we. Um. But I think that you could
make an argument that there's such thing as doing it
too much among chimpanzees. And if you did notice that
(02:35):
your chimpanzee was abusing himself a little too much, you
could make a case that that chimpanzee was experiencing zookosis.
You just dropped the mic, Josh just left the room literally,
thank you good night. That's it. Yeah, zukosis, man, that's
(02:55):
when animals in captivity start doing strange things like uh
pascing like a bearable paste in a circle for hours
on end, or a chimp might abuse himself, or a
make the Saints cry. Cheetah might uh can like a
bathe itself too much like self groom, how cats do
(03:15):
like lick rash like holes in their body and stuff. Yeah,
there's even worse stuff too. Um. A guy named Bill
Traverse who's an actor from the UK who appropriately enough
was in a movie called Born Free uh he uh.
He was an animal rights activist as well. In he
coined the term zukosis um and it described some pretty
(03:37):
horrific behavior. Like you said, a lot of it is
found in the wild as well. But it's just too repetitive.
It's over and over and over again. It's constant. Like
animals groom in the wild, but they don't groom until
they have sore spots on their skin. Um. There's other
stuff that they don't normally do in the wild, like
smear their feces on, you know, the windows of their enclosures. Um,
(04:02):
self mutilation, like chewing their own tailor leg um. There's
a there's a kind of bulimia that some primates exhibit,
uh in captivity, where they vomit, eat their vomit, and
then vomit again. Uh, just over and over. I don't
maybe out of boredom, maybe out of frustration or anger.
(04:23):
But the point is you see this among animals and captivity.
You don't see this kind of behavior among animals in
the wild, which indicates what some people would consider a
problem with zoos. Let's get down to it, discuss. Yeah,
our zoo's good or bad. And obviously we've read the
same article, so you can make the case for both, right, Yeah, Well,
(04:44):
I guess we should start with good since we've already
indicated a hint of the bad, just a hint, just
a hint. The good let's talk about some pros on
the zoo side. Um, zoos have gotten a lot better
in the last four thousand years, and a whole lot
better in the last like thirty years from what I've seen.
Like when I was a kid and went to the
Atlanta Zoo, it was the tile room with the guerrilla
(05:07):
in it. And the monkey bars are not the monkey bars,
the cage bars. Monkey bars were to play on right,
I'm gonna play they didn't have monkey bars. But I
mean if if they're the bars to the cage for
a monkey and closure, they are technically monkey bars. Yeah
what I'm the low nd on the totem pole, am
I talking about? Yeah, that's that's a good thing. M uh.
(05:29):
But they come a long way in the last like
thirty and forty years and trying to create um more.
The miniature habitats that they normally would live in the
fences are gone now replaced with like moats, so they
can't get to you, obviously, because that would be bad.
Zeus have kind of kept in step with um the
progress of mental institutions. Yeah, you know, they've gotten a
(05:52):
lot better. Same with zoos. Apparently, Uh, they used to
procure animals by going into the wild and taking them.
Have you ever seen the Mystery Science Theater three thousand
short catching Trouble? It is so unsettling you should check
it out. Okay, So they used to go out procure animals,
like they just go out to the to the planes
(06:13):
and like get some giraffes and bring them home. They
don't do that much anymore, although I do have some
examples we'll get too later where they still actually do that. Yeah,
now they have keptive breeding programs, yes, or a lot
of animals are born in a zoo they never knew
the wild, which he would make the argument that that's
a lot better than having memory of Oh I used
(06:34):
to live in a five thousand square mile range and
now I live in a square feet area. And uh,
they also, Josh, are trying to help restore endangered species
with breeding programs and releasing them back into the wild.
So that's that's some good, right, that is good. Yeah,
(06:56):
I mean and the California condor, Right, that's that's one
that's usually held up as an example. Uh, not too
long ago, the California condor was on the verge of extinction. Um,
and the San Diego and Los Angeles, who's got together
and said, let's let's bring this vulture back. Let's get
this vulture back up and running. Okay. So they had
(07:18):
a in flying and they had a captive breeding program,
and um, they took the population the world, the global
population of the California condor, which was just relegated to California,
um from less than two dozen birds to a d
seventy not self sufficient even better, Chuck is the um
(07:39):
pair David's deer right? Tell us that story. Well, this
is a this is a Chinese deer. So what I
like to say, it is a deer from China. And
this deer had had had it been bred in captivity
or was extinct, and then they re introduced it to
the wild once they bred activity. How how did it happen? Uh,
(08:02):
they went extinct in the wild, but they happen to
have a few in captivity. Yeah, and then they eventually
released I think four into the wild for the first
time and another self sufficient, self sustaining, which means they
get it on. Yeah. They're a good looking dear too,
so they don't they don't have any problems. Now, I
(08:23):
just mean it's a it's a you know, majestic animal
good looking. Also, zeos often serve as a better home
to animals that are like part of traveling circuses. Um,
you remember our own aquarium here and Atlanta rescued. I
guess the whale shark, both of their whale sharks. One
(08:44):
was in Mexico, I think, and like a tank it
could barely turn around in And now it's got the
biggest tank in the world. And we swam in it.
We did. It was cold, big dudes. Yeah. Uh, and
there's polar bears that have been rescued. Leo. The snow leopard. Yeah,
taking from Pakistan in two thousand seventh, wasn't was in
great shape. In two thousand seven in the Bronx Zoo
(09:06):
said give us that snow leopard, bring him over here. Yeah,
that was my Bronx dude, Oh I got it. Okay,
what else, Josh? Oh, they have their care We know
a lot more now we're we're about animals and what
they need in the kind of habitat. So the care
taking of the animals and zoos has gotten way way
better over the years. Yeah. Again, the at the Bronx Zoo,
(09:28):
they just released there or they just opened their art
vark exhibit new and improved uh. And apparently art varks
were notoriously difficult to keep alive and happy because their
termite diet is really hard to replicate. But they got
it down to this uh insectivore chow in meat slurry diet,
which sounds I wonder if it says new and improved
(09:50):
now featuring live art varks corpses, it's much improved. No
flies buzzing around them, Josh. The A lot of zoos
give back financial The Bronx Zoo is channel more than
three million dollars towards conservation projects in Africa, and sometimes
they pair with groups like the Nature Conservancy to work
not even just within their zoo, but in other states
(10:11):
to uh. I think who is a Toledo zoo was
working to restore butterfly habitats and Ohio. Yeah, and I
have to tell you the Toledo Zoo for the size
town of Toledo, the Toledo Zoo and the Toledo Art
Museum are world class, really great zoo. Yeah, it puts
Atlanta Zoo to shame. And then you can go to
Tony Pacals right, Tony Pacos Pacos hot Dog. Yeah, you
(10:38):
can get uh. Yeah, the best hot dog on the
planet from Tony Pacos. Feed it to the I feel
like cleaner. Uh and Josh, research and scientific research is
obviously a big part of what zoos do nowadays. Okay,
so that was like the well I got a step
for you. Oh sorry, that's right. In two thousand two,
zoo's participated in two thousand two thirty research projects, conservation projects,
(11:04):
and more than eighty countries, which is pretty good. Yeah,
and we shouldn't just poo poo that and go, you know,
Willie Nilly buy it now. And you have to make
the case that yes, zoos are helping in some way,
shape or form. Right, Like, imagine the deer, the pair
David's deer, right, Um, that would not be around anymore.
(11:25):
That's that species would be extinct if it weren't for
conservation efforts among zoos. Right, condor perhaps California condor might
be gone. Maybe loss of the vulture. Apparently those things
are huge. I read an article once where this guy
was um standing on a cliff in California and he
heard this, and then all of a sudden he just
(11:45):
got really loud, and right up in front of him,
this enormous condor just flew up and had been had
been hunting, I guess, in this canyon and came up
along the cliff's face and just flew like ten ft
in front of him. He said, was just huge and
probably the most thrilling thing that's ever happened to them. Yeah,
they're big. I saw a bunch of them in Napa
(12:05):
Valley on my recent trip, like tons of them. They
hanging around the vineyards because when you're plowing a vineyard
you'll dig up like rodents and stuff. So the vultures
follow along behind the tractor literally and like go down
there and eat up nice good for them, all right, Chuck,
let's let's talk about the bad. Yeah, we get the
(12:27):
ugly and the good down. Yeah, let's talk about the bad.
You mentioned that the um that zoos are big on conservation, right,
some say they are well in the US. If you
are an animal exhibitor, meaning that you are showing animals
for money, you have to be licensed by the U.
S t A. Yes, there's about animal exhibitors in the
(12:50):
US and they range from like the San Diego Zoo
to the place in Arkansas where you drive through and
like an Ostrich sticks his head in your car, right
and go call the police. Exactly. Yeah. Um, about two
hundred of those hundred are actually members of the American
Zoological and Aquarium Association. Those are the up and up. Now,
(13:15):
the a c A has far higher standards than the U.
S d A for its members. Um is stricter safety requirements. Um.
It's they forced conservation spending among their members. So um,
you know, when you're not a member of the a
c A, those other twenty four or hundred animal exhibitions
in the US are spending nothing on conservation. And the
(13:39):
other problem is the members of the a c A
spend about three percent of their take at the gate
on conservation every year, which is not that much. I mean,
it goes kind of far, but not far enough. Uh.
And also the the I think a hundred and forty
six reintroduction programs took place in the twentieth century, sixteen
(14:03):
were successful. Those are the status. You don't get, No,
they just say we did a hundred forty five programs,
and most of those programs were um, undertaken by the
US government. So zoos are getting a lot of credit
and taking a lot of credit. Actually, um, in the
public mind, in the public consciousness. They've very successfully carved
(14:26):
out this place where hey, we're here. It is to
save the animals, and the idea that they are a
business that makes money off of people coming in and
looking at the animals has kind of been washed away,
although it's still very present. It's zoos are very much businesses,
you know this condourse. Yeah, only about two thirds of
those worth strong enough to live. Yeah, that's sad. So
(14:48):
you don't see that stat on the front end they
got plowed under the front end of the tractor rather
than flying in the back end. But they are I mean,
part of me says these programs only sixteen were successful,
But I mean they were trying at least, so I
will give him that. Well, yeah, but I mean, like
dead animals don't usually give you an e for effort,
you know. Um. And I think part of the other
(15:10):
problem is and I don't mean to Hammer's zoos like
I do, see both sides of this coin. This isn't this,
This isn't me just like, yeah, we talked about the good,
now let's really get to it. Um again, there's that
that pair David Deer. It wouldn't have existed had it
not been for zoos. But I think by and large,
(15:30):
if the reason zoos exist is because of encroachment on land,
Like there's no there's a mind toward conservation, but there's
not a mind toward preservation, and that's really where the
mind should be, the mind and the money, right, I mean,
if you take an elephant and put it into a
little enclosure, it's gonna go nuts. Elephants are Actually that's
(15:52):
one of the big ones as far as uh people
not trying to be a pun master there, but it's
one of the big animals that people are trying to
get out of zoos. Like, if you're not going to
shut down a zoo, at least get the elephants out
of there. Yeah, And there's actually a website Josh called
Save Wild Elephants dot com, and um, some zoos are
(16:13):
starting to get rid of their elephant habitats and and
they should honestly. I mean, elephants are used to traveling
about fifty miles a day in large herds, and in
the in captivity, they're you know, standing around an enclosure
all day alone or with maybe a buddy or two. Right,
So they're very social, highly social animals. That travel great distances,
(16:36):
and no, they shouldn't be in in captivity at all. Yeah.
The Detroit too actually got rid of their two elephants
and closed down their exhibit, and the director of the
zoo said Asian elephants should not live in small groups
without many acres to rome, and they clearly shouldn't have
to suffer the winners of the North. That's the other
thing you know, think about is they're this elephant in
the Detroit winner Are you kidding me? Now? And even
(16:58):
worse as a uh, poor elephant called Maggie the elephant
who in two thousand seven, during a cold snap at
her home at the Alaska Zoo, was kept for days
on in and this little inside enclosure because the zookeepers
were like, she can't go outside, she'll freeze to death.
And they brought in a treadmill that was big enough
(17:19):
for and she wouldn't use it. Apparently the public finally
just went crazy over it because it's a treadmill. Yeah,
who likes a treadmill? Nobody? Nobody. I've got some more
horror stories for you, Josh, if you want to hear. Yes,
Tatiana Siberian tiger at the San Francisco Zoo in two
thousand seven, escaped the substandard enclosure that she was in
(17:41):
and was shot to death after she killed a person
by police. So that happened. Um the Dallas Zoo, a
guerrilla name Jabari tried to escape by jumping over the
walls and moats and was fatally shot by police. Witness
later reported that teenagers were taunting the animal with rocks
are to escape? Remember that? Yeah, so these little kids
(18:04):
throwing rocks at this gorilla and then, uh, all of
a sudden, the gorilla escapes and the cops shoot it down.
This wouldn't happen if the grillos in the wild. I think.
Did it get that kid? Though? Didn't he get his
hands on one of the kids. I don't know. That's
not that's not in here. Uh. And at the Virginia Zoo, boy,
they're really doing a great job. They had ten prairie
(18:24):
dogs die when their tunnel collapsed on them in their habitat.
They had a rhinoceros drown in the moat that was
trying to you know, the moat that they used as
a barrier. Uh. They had a zebra narrowly escaped death
after jumping into the lion exhibit, which obviously she had passage,
and another zebra lost her life when she bolted from
(18:45):
a holding pin, struck offense and broke her neck. So
they're really, uh, really doing a great job there in
the Virginia Zoo. Well, I think that kind of demonstrates
the problem is zebras are too stupid to not run
in defenses, and if they're next then there shouldn't be
fences around them. I got another elephant stat too, let's
hear it, man. They studied records of forty elephants and
(19:10):
they found that the median lifespan of an African elephant
in a zoo is sixteen point nine years. Do you
know what it is on the open plane? Fifty six years? Yeah,
that's not good. That's quite a drop. It is. Another.
Another argument that's made in favor of zoos often is
that they educate the public. Um studies have actually shown
that people come out of zoos less informed than they
(19:33):
were before, and um with this kind of false sense
of security that zoos have it under control and they
don't really need to do anything to for conservation or
preservation efforts. So zoos could actually be counterproductive in that regard. Yeah,
and you know on that note they say that, um,
the signs and the zoos, which you get is a
(19:54):
little information about their species and diet and where they're from.
But you never, if you notice, you never get any
information on their normal behavior in the wild because you're
not seeing it. So you're not really educating on how
the animal really is. You're educating them on how they
are in this small enclosure. And even then it's just
a sign like this zebra likes to eat this plant.
(20:17):
This chimp loves to vomit, eat its vomit and vomit again,
and then spirits poop on the windows. Right, not funny.
And I did want to mention to how we said
earlier that they don't go out in the wild and
catch their animals anymore. Not quite true. In two thousand three,
the San Diego Wild Animal Park and Lowry Park Zoo
captured eleven African elephants elephants elephants a species that is threatened,
(20:43):
and they captured them from their natural habitat and Swaziland,
and I guess brought them back to the zoo. And
then I've got one more really sad one that Jerry
is going to not listen to. Part of the problem
in zeus, Josh, is that we like our cute little
baby animals. What happens to cute little baby animals? They
grow up, they grow up, and many times they get
(21:04):
shuffled around after they're not cute anymore. Two different zoos
moving around, it's not good for an animal. There was
a chimpanzee named Edith born in the nineteen sixties at
the St. Louis Zoo, and Edith was a big hit
because she was a cute little baby. Edith grew up
like all animals do and wasn't as attractive, so they
shuffled her to five different facilities over the course of
(21:25):
the years, eventually landing at a roadside zoo in Texas,
and after an undercover investigation, they found Edith in a
filthy concrete pit, hairless, living on dog food. How sad
is that? That's pretty? Said Jerry. Did you hear that
she's she's not listening. But I mean, I don't want
to like throw the gauntlet down too much and say
(21:47):
think about this when you're going to a zoo, but
you know, think about this when you go to a zoo.
Oh yeah, if you see an animal pulling its own
hair out, Yeah, chewing its own tail off, or doing
other some other bizarre saddening bay. If you should feel
to that ad and you should tell somebody about it,
you should contact somebody about it. Um Uh, it's it's
it's everyone's own choice how they view a zoo, obviously,
(22:10):
but if it gets to you, then do something about
And there's plenty of organizations out there that somebody can
join if they find that they are opposed to the
concept of zoos absolutely. Uh. Pete also wanted to point
out there are a few forward thinking zoos, progressive zoos
that are trying their best to do right, like Monstory Zoos.
So the Baltimore Zoo, good for you, Detroit Zoo, we
(22:32):
love Detroit Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, and the North
Carolina Zoo are apparently doing a pretty decent job of
giving back. What was the last one? North Carolina? Okay,
So Atlanta's not in there? Huh. No, Atlanta's not in there.
Grant Park, you've been there lately? Um? Year or so ago?
Two years ago? Um? Have you heard of the lu
(22:53):
Gen Zoo? No, but I'll bet it's in China. It's
in Argentina, maybe l u J and maybe it's not Lujon.
They have an awful zoo where you can go and
sit on the back of a lion, or get in
the cage with a tiger and pet the tiger, or
bottle feed a bobcat and you can do this when
(23:15):
you pay your fifty bucks. And it is a truly
terrible thing because you're not supposed to ride lions. No,
people aren't supposed to interact with these predators like that.
If the Darwin Awards have taught us anything, that you
have to sign a thing when you go in there
saying that if I get killed, then it's not your fault.
Then it's just thinning the hurt. But I don't usually
do this. But there is actually an online petition against
(23:36):
this this place. It's at the petition site dot com
and they need ten thousand signatures and there even so,
even if you like zoos, you don't like the Lujon zoo.
It's not a good thing. And what about Chuck. You know,
we we talked about zoos. What about aquariums? What about
sea world? Should a killer whale be kept in a
(23:57):
little tank? Of course, it's gonna eat it. Strainer at
some point. Yeah, I've blogged about that. Yeah, that's it's
a killer whale. Which camp are you? I don't know.
As far as zoos go, I don't know if I
want to say every zoo should be shut down, but
definitely a lot of these animals shouldn't be kept in captivity,
like elephants. What do you think? I cannot answer. That
(24:23):
is all in my head. Now, there's always something going
on on the Stuff you Should Know blogging their Chuck Shure, Josh.
You can visit the Stuff you Should Know blog anytime
you like. It's open seven three sixty five. And if
you want to learn more about animals and captivity, just
type animals and captivity in the handy search bar at
how stuff works dot com. Which means, of course, it's
(24:45):
time for listener mail. No, I'm getting in what no
listener mail today? We have too many things to ask for? Okay, well,
no listener mail, then what do we have to ask for? Chuck,
We'll go ahead and mention our T shirt contest that
we haven't determined the rule for yet. Yeah, we haven't
determined the rules, but you could get an early start, right, Okay,
So we're we have a call to all Stuff you
(25:07):
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(25:29):
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(25:50):
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home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand
twelve camera. It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, I'm welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me. Is always this
Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes this stuff you should know?
(00:23):
You know what? And saw Ronnie millsap this weekend. Shut up,
I swear to guy. Really? Yeah, he's still alive. Oh yeah,
he just had he just released a new gospel album.
Is he the Blind Guy? Yeah? Okay, yeah. Where where
did he play? I've got to know. Spindale, North Carolina.
I can say honestly that I've been to Spindale, North Carolina.
(00:44):
Did you go there to see him? Yeah? You mean
he's a big fan actually, and he's spent half an
hour talking about his life. That guy's had it rough man. Yeah,
you should check him out. He's interesting. I mean he
was part of my childhood for sure. You should have gone.
He played some old it. But he actually has a
podcast in case you Yeah, he's got a podcast. Yeah,
(01:06):
it's pretty good too. It's him like telling stories, talking
and then playing a song and like he'll talk to
somebody like off camera or off mike or whatever, like
what did I forget or something like that, and then
you'll hear something muffled and we're like, oh, yeah, okay,
and he'll start playing. Is it called millsappen? That's what
I call it. I think it's called like the Ronnie
Millstap Show or something. Yeah, and we met him too. Actually,
(01:31):
of course you're like eight people there. You could know
it was packed. We definitely skewed the median age tremendously. Yeah,
there was a lot of old folks there, but went
to Dollywood right afterwards. We were definitely the only people
from Atlanta there for sure. Cool. Yeah, Chuck, I love
that that intro. Thanks Chuck. Yes, have you ever seen
(01:53):
a chimpanzee masterbait? Uh? Yeah, I have you have. You're
not the first person I met who's seen that? What
you saw it at the zoo? Uh? Yeah? I mean
is there any other answer than yes it was at
a zoo. If I say it was hit my friend
Roger's house, authorities are going to show up at you
(02:15):
have seen that. I've never seen it. I think you've
seen on YouTube. See. I think that that is a
normal behavior, as I understand that they are primates after all,
as are we. Um. But I think that you could
make an argument that there's such thing as doing it
too much among chimpanzees. And if you did notice that
(02:35):
your chimpanzee was abusing himself a little too much, you
could make a case that that chimpanzee was experiencing zookosis.
You just dropped the mic, Josh just left the room literally,
thank you good night. That's it. Yeah, zukosis, man, that's
(02:55):
when animals in captivity start doing strange things like uh
pascing like a bearable paste in a circle for hours
on end, or a chimp might abuse himself, or a
make the Saints cry. Cheetah might uh can like a
bathe itself too much like self groom, how cats do
(03:15):
like lick rash like holes in their body and stuff. Yeah,
there's even worse stuff too. Um. A guy named Bill
Traverse who's an actor from the UK who appropriately enough
was in a movie called Born Free uh he uh.
He was an animal rights activist as well. In he
coined the term zukosis um and it described some pretty
(03:37):
horrific behavior. Like you said, a lot of it is
found in the wild as well. But it's just too repetitive.
It's over and over and over again. It's constant. Like
animals groom in the wild, but they don't groom until
they have sore spots on their skin. Um. There's other
stuff that they don't normally do in the wild, like
smear their feces on, you know, the windows of their enclosures. Um,
(04:02):
self mutilation, like chewing their own tailor leg um. There's
a there's a kind of bulimia that some primates exhibit,
uh in captivity, where they vomit, eat their vomit, and
then vomit again. Uh, just over and over. I don't
maybe out of boredom, maybe out of frustration or anger.
(04:23):
But the point is you see this among animals and captivity.
You don't see this kind of behavior among animals in
the wild, which indicates what some people would consider a
problem with zoos. Let's get down to it, discuss. Yeah,
our zoo's good or bad. And obviously we've read the
same article, so you can make the case for both, right, Yeah, Well,
(04:44):
I guess we should start with good since we've already
indicated a hint of the bad, just a hint, just
a hint. The good let's talk about some pros on
the zoo side. Um, zoos have gotten a lot better
in the last four thousand years, and a whole lot
better in the last like thirty years from what I've seen.
Like when I was a kid and went to the
Atlanta Zoo, it was the tile room with the guerrilla
(05:07):
in it. And the monkey bars are not the monkey bars,
the cage bars. Monkey bars were to play on right,
I'm gonna play they didn't have monkey bars. But I
mean if if they're the bars to the cage for
a monkey and closure, they are technically monkey bars. Yeah
what I'm the low nd on the totem pole, am
I talking about? Yeah, that's that's a good thing. M uh.
(05:29):
But they come a long way in the last like
thirty and forty years and trying to create um more.
The miniature habitats that they normally would live in the
fences are gone now replaced with like moats, so they
can't get to you, obviously, because that would be bad.
Zeus have kind of kept in step with um the
progress of mental institutions. Yeah, you know, they've gotten a
(05:52):
lot better. Same with zoos. Apparently, Uh, they used to
procure animals by going into the wild and taking them.
Have you ever seen the Mystery Science Theater three thousand
short catching Trouble? It is so unsettling you should check
it out. Okay, So they used to go out procure animals,
like they just go out to the to the planes
(06:13):
and like get some giraffes and bring them home. They
don't do that much anymore, although I do have some
examples we'll get too later where they still actually do that. Yeah,
now they have keptive breeding programs, yes, or a lot
of animals are born in a zoo they never knew
the wild, which he would make the argument that that's
a lot better than having memory of Oh I used
(06:34):
to live in a five thousand square mile range and
now I live in a square feet area. And uh,
they also, Josh, are trying to help restore endangered species
with breeding programs and releasing them back into the wild.
So that's that's some good, right, that is good. Yeah,
(06:56):
I mean and the California condor, Right, that's that's one
that's usually held up as an example. Uh, not too
long ago, the California condor was on the verge of extinction. Um,
and the San Diego and Los Angeles, who's got together
and said, let's let's bring this vulture back. Let's get
this vulture back up and running. Okay. So they had
(07:18):
a in flying and they had a captive breeding program,
and um, they took the population the world, the global
population of the California condor, which was just relegated to California,
um from less than two dozen birds to a d
seventy not self sufficient even better, Chuck is the um
(07:39):
pair David's deer right? Tell us that story. Well, this
is a this is a Chinese deer. So what I
like to say, it is a deer from China. And
this deer had had had it been bred in captivity
or was extinct, and then they re introduced it to
the wild once they bred activity. How how did it happen? Uh,
(08:02):
they went extinct in the wild, but they happen to
have a few in captivity. Yeah, and then they eventually
released I think four into the wild for the first
time and another self sufficient, self sustaining, which means they
get it on. Yeah. They're a good looking dear too,
so they don't they don't have any problems. Now, I
(08:23):
just mean it's a it's a you know, majestic animal
good looking. Also, zeos often serve as a better home
to animals that are like part of traveling circuses. Um,
you remember our own aquarium here and Atlanta rescued. I
guess the whale shark, both of their whale sharks. One
(08:44):
was in Mexico, I think, and like a tank it
could barely turn around in And now it's got the
biggest tank in the world. And we swam in it.
We did. It was cold, big dudes. Yeah. Uh, and
there's polar bears that have been rescued. Leo. The snow leopard. Yeah,
taking from Pakistan in two thousand seventh, wasn't was in
great shape. In two thousand seven in the Bronx Zoo
(09:06):
said give us that snow leopard, bring him over here. Yeah,
that was my Bronx dude, Oh I got it. Okay,
what else, Josh? Oh, they have their care We know
a lot more now we're we're about animals and what
they need in the kind of habitat. So the care
taking of the animals and zoos has gotten way way
better over the years. Yeah. Again, the at the Bronx Zoo,
(09:28):
they just released there or they just opened their art
vark exhibit new and improved uh. And apparently art varks
were notoriously difficult to keep alive and happy because their
termite diet is really hard to replicate. But they got
it down to this uh insectivore chow in meat slurry diet,
which sounds I wonder if it says new and improved
(09:50):
now featuring live art varks corpses, it's much improved. No
flies buzzing around them, Josh. The A lot of zoos
give back financial The Bronx Zoo is channel more than
three million dollars towards conservation projects in Africa, and sometimes
they pair with groups like the Nature Conservancy to work
not even just within their zoo, but in other states
(10:11):
to uh. I think who is a Toledo zoo was
working to restore butterfly habitats and Ohio. Yeah, and I
have to tell you the Toledo Zoo for the size
town of Toledo, the Toledo Zoo and the Toledo Art
Museum are world class, really great zoo. Yeah, it puts
Atlanta Zoo to shame. And then you can go to
Tony Pacals right, Tony Pacos Pacos hot Dog. Yeah, you
(10:38):
can get uh. Yeah, the best hot dog on the
planet from Tony Pacos. Feed it to the I feel
like cleaner. Uh and Josh, research and scientific research is
obviously a big part of what zoos do nowadays. Okay,
so that was like the well I got a step
for you. Oh sorry, that's right. In two thousand two,
zoo's participated in two thousand two thirty research projects, conservation projects,
(11:04):
and more than eighty countries, which is pretty good. Yeah,
and we shouldn't just poo poo that and go, you know,
Willie Nilly buy it now. And you have to make
the case that yes, zoos are helping in some way,
shape or form. Right, Like, imagine the deer, the pair
David's deer, right, Um, that would not be around anymore.
(11:25):
That's that species would be extinct if it weren't for
conservation efforts among zoos. Right, condor perhaps California condor might
be gone. Maybe loss of the vulture. Apparently those things
are huge. I read an article once where this guy
was um standing on a cliff in California and he
heard this, and then all of a sudden he just
(11:45):
got really loud, and right up in front of him,
this enormous condor just flew up and had been had
been hunting, I guess, in this canyon and came up
along the cliff's face and just flew like ten ft
in front of him. He said, was just huge and
probably the most thrilling thing that's ever happened to them. Yeah,
they're big. I saw a bunch of them in Napa
(12:05):
Valley on my recent trip, like tons of them. They
hanging around the vineyards because when you're plowing a vineyard
you'll dig up like rodents and stuff. So the vultures
follow along behind the tractor literally and like go down
there and eat up nice good for them, all right, Chuck,
let's let's talk about the bad. Yeah, we get the
(12:27):
ugly and the good down. Yeah, let's talk about the bad.
You mentioned that the um that zoos are big on conservation, right,
some say they are well in the US. If you
are an animal exhibitor, meaning that you are showing animals
for money, you have to be licensed by the U.
S t A. Yes, there's about animal exhibitors in the
(12:50):
US and they range from like the San Diego Zoo
to the place in Arkansas where you drive through and
like an Ostrich sticks his head in your car, right
and go call the police. Exactly. Yeah. Um, about two
hundred of those hundred are actually members of the American
Zoological and Aquarium Association. Those are the up and up. Now,
(13:15):
the a c A has far higher standards than the U.
S d A for its members. Um is stricter safety requirements. Um.
It's they forced conservation spending among their members. So um,
you know, when you're not a member of the a
c A, those other twenty four or hundred animal exhibitions
in the US are spending nothing on conservation. And the
(13:39):
other problem is the members of the a c A
spend about three percent of their take at the gate
on conservation every year, which is not that much. I mean,
it goes kind of far, but not far enough. Uh.
And also the the I think a hundred and forty
six reintroduction programs took place in the twentieth century, sixteen
(14:03):
were successful. Those are the status. You don't get, No,
they just say we did a hundred forty five programs,
and most of those programs were um, undertaken by the
US government. So zoos are getting a lot of credit
and taking a lot of credit. Actually, um, in the
public mind, in the public consciousness. They've very successfully carved
(14:26):
out this place where hey, we're here. It is to
save the animals, and the idea that they are a
business that makes money off of people coming in and
looking at the animals has kind of been washed away,
although it's still very present. It's zoos are very much businesses,
you know this condourse. Yeah, only about two thirds of
those worth strong enough to live. Yeah, that's sad. So
(14:48):
you don't see that stat on the front end they
got plowed under the front end of the tractor rather
than flying in the back end. But they are I mean,
part of me says these programs only sixteen were successful,
But I mean they were trying at least, so I
will give him that. Well, yeah, but I mean, like
dead animals don't usually give you an e for effort,
you know. Um. And I think part of the other
(15:10):
problem is and I don't mean to Hammer's zoos like
I do, see both sides of this coin. This isn't this,
This isn't me just like, yeah, we talked about the good,
now let's really get to it. Um again, there's that
that pair David Deer. It wouldn't have existed had it
not been for zoos. But I think by and large,
(15:30):
if the reason zoos exist is because of encroachment on land,
Like there's no there's a mind toward conservation, but there's
not a mind toward preservation, and that's really where the
mind should be, the mind and the money, right, I mean,
if you take an elephant and put it into a
little enclosure, it's gonna go nuts. Elephants are Actually that's
(15:52):
one of the big ones as far as uh people
not trying to be a pun master there, but it's
one of the big animals that people are trying to
get out of zoos. Like, if you're not going to
shut down a zoo, at least get the elephants out
of there. Yeah, And there's actually a website Josh called
Save Wild Elephants dot com, and um, some zoos are
(16:13):
starting to get rid of their elephant habitats and and
they should honestly. I mean, elephants are used to traveling
about fifty miles a day in large herds, and in
the in captivity, they're you know, standing around an enclosure
all day alone or with maybe a buddy or two. Right,
So they're very social, highly social animals. That travel great distances,
(16:36):
and no, they shouldn't be in in captivity at all. Yeah.
The Detroit too actually got rid of their two elephants
and closed down their exhibit, and the director of the
zoo said Asian elephants should not live in small groups
without many acres to rome, and they clearly shouldn't have
to suffer the winners of the North. That's the other
thing you know, think about is they're this elephant in
the Detroit winner Are you kidding me? Now? And even
(16:58):
worse as a uh, poor elephant called Maggie the elephant
who in two thousand seven, during a cold snap at
her home at the Alaska Zoo, was kept for days
on in and this little inside enclosure because the zookeepers
were like, she can't go outside, she'll freeze to death.
And they brought in a treadmill that was big enough
(17:19):
for and she wouldn't use it. Apparently the public finally
just went crazy over it because it's a treadmill. Yeah,
who likes a treadmill? Nobody? Nobody. I've got some more
horror stories for you, Josh, if you want to hear. Yes,
Tatiana Siberian tiger at the San Francisco Zoo in two
thousand seven, escaped the substandard enclosure that she was in
(17:41):
and was shot to death after she killed a person
by police. So that happened. Um the Dallas Zoo, a
guerrilla name Jabari tried to escape by jumping over the
walls and moats and was fatally shot by police. Witness
later reported that teenagers were taunting the animal with rocks
are to escape? Remember that? Yeah, so these little kids
(18:04):
throwing rocks at this gorilla and then, uh, all of
a sudden, the gorilla escapes and the cops shoot it down.
This wouldn't happen if the grillos in the wild. I think.
Did it get that kid? Though? Didn't he get his
hands on one of the kids. I don't know. That's
not that's not in here. Uh. And at the Virginia Zoo, boy,
they're really doing a great job. They had ten prairie
(18:24):
dogs die when their tunnel collapsed on them in their habitat.
They had a rhinoceros drown in the moat that was
trying to you know, the moat that they used as
a barrier. Uh. They had a zebra narrowly escaped death
after jumping into the lion exhibit, which obviously she had passage,
and another zebra lost her life when she bolted from
(18:45):
a holding pin, struck offense and broke her neck. So
they're really, uh, really doing a great job there in
the Virginia Zoo. Well, I think that kind of demonstrates
the problem is zebras are too stupid to not run
in defenses, and if they're next then there shouldn't be
fences around them. I got another elephant stat too, let's
hear it, man. They studied records of forty elephants and
(19:10):
they found that the median lifespan of an African elephant
in a zoo is sixteen point nine years. Do you
know what it is on the open plane? Fifty six years? Yeah,
that's not good. That's quite a drop. It is. Another.
Another argument that's made in favor of zoos often is
that they educate the public. Um studies have actually shown
that people come out of zoos less informed than they
(19:33):
were before, and um with this kind of false sense
of security that zoos have it under control and they
don't really need to do anything to for conservation or
preservation efforts. So zoos could actually be counterproductive in that regard. Yeah,
and you know on that note they say that, um,
the signs and the zoos, which you get is a
(19:54):
little information about their species and diet and where they're from.
But you never, if you notice, you never get any
information on their normal behavior in the wild because you're
not seeing it. So you're not really educating on how
the animal really is. You're educating them on how they
are in this small enclosure. And even then it's just
a sign like this zebra likes to eat this plant.
(20:17):
This chimp loves to vomit, eat its vomit and vomit again,
and then spirits poop on the windows. Right, not funny.
And I did want to mention to how we said
earlier that they don't go out in the wild and
catch their animals anymore. Not quite true. In two thousand three,
the San Diego Wild Animal Park and Lowry Park Zoo
captured eleven African elephants elephants elephants a species that is threatened,
(20:43):
and they captured them from their natural habitat and Swaziland,
and I guess brought them back to the zoo. And
then I've got one more really sad one that Jerry
is going to not listen to. Part of the problem
in zeus, Josh, is that we like our cute little
baby animals. What happens to cute little baby animals? They
grow up, they grow up, and many times they get
(21:04):
shuffled around after they're not cute anymore. Two different zoos
moving around, it's not good for an animal. There was
a chimpanzee named Edith born in the nineteen sixties at
the St. Louis Zoo, and Edith was a big hit
because she was a cute little baby. Edith grew up
like all animals do and wasn't as attractive, so they
shuffled her to five different facilities over the course of
(21:25):
the years, eventually landing at a roadside zoo in Texas,
and after an undercover investigation, they found Edith in a
filthy concrete pit, hairless, living on dog food. How sad
is that? That's pretty? Said Jerry. Did you hear that
she's she's not listening. But I mean, I don't want
to like throw the gauntlet down too much and say
(21:47):
think about this when you're going to a zoo, but
you know, think about this when you go to a zoo.
Oh yeah, if you see an animal pulling its own
hair out, Yeah, chewing its own tail off, or doing
other some other bizarre saddening bay. If you should feel
to that ad and you should tell somebody about it,
you should contact somebody about it. Um Uh, it's it's
it's everyone's own choice how they view a zoo, obviously,
(22:10):
but if it gets to you, then do something about
And there's plenty of organizations out there that somebody can
join if they find that they are opposed to the
concept of zoos absolutely. Uh. Pete also wanted to point
out there are a few forward thinking zoos, progressive zoos
that are trying their best to do right, like Monstory Zoos.
So the Baltimore Zoo, good for you, Detroit Zoo, we
(22:32):
love Detroit Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, and the North
Carolina Zoo are apparently doing a pretty decent job of
giving back. What was the last one? North Carolina? Okay,
So Atlanta's not in there? Huh. No, Atlanta's not in there.
Grant Park, you've been there lately? Um? Year or so ago?
Two years ago? Um? Have you heard of the lu
(22:53):
Gen Zoo? No, but I'll bet it's in China. It's
in Argentina, maybe l u J and maybe it's not Lujon.
They have an awful zoo where you can go and
sit on the back of a lion, or get in
the cage with a tiger and pet the tiger, or
bottle feed a bobcat and you can do this when
(23:15):
you pay your fifty bucks. And it is a truly
terrible thing because you're not supposed to ride lions. No,
people aren't supposed to interact with these predators like that.
If the Darwin Awards have taught us anything, that you
have to sign a thing when you go in there
saying that if I get killed, then it's not your fault.
Then it's just thinning the hurt. But I don't usually
do this. But there is actually an online petition against
(23:36):
this this place. It's at the petition site dot com
and they need ten thousand signatures and there even so,
even if you like zoos, you don't like the Lujon zoo.
It's not a good thing. And what about Chuck. You know,
we we talked about zoos. What about aquariums? What about
sea world? Should a killer whale be kept in a
(23:57):
little tank? Of course, it's gonna eat it. Strainer at
some point. Yeah, I've blogged about that. Yeah, that's it's
a killer whale. Which camp are you? I don't know.
As far as zoos go, I don't know if I
want to say every zoo should be shut down, but
definitely a lot of these animals shouldn't be kept in captivity,
like elephants. What do you think? I cannot answer. That
(24:23):
is all in my head. Now, there's always something going
on on the Stuff you Should Know blogging their Chuck Shure, Josh.
You can visit the Stuff you Should Know blog anytime
you like. It's open seven three sixty five. And if
you want to learn more about animals and captivity, just
type animals and captivity in the handy search bar at
how stuff works dot com. Which means, of course, it's
(24:45):
time for listener mail. No, I'm getting in what no
listener mail today? We have too many things to ask for? Okay, well,
no listener mail, then what do we have to ask for? Chuck,
We'll go ahead and mention our T shirt contest that
we haven't determined the rule for yet. Yeah, we haven't
determined the rules, but you could get an early start, right, Okay,
So we're we have a call to all Stuff you
(25:07):
should Know fans with an artistic bent. Uh, if you
have any graphic design skills, we want to see them
come up with this stuff you should Know t shirt
logo and some great fortune will lie in your future
if we picked you his winner. We don't know what yet,
but believe me, you'll be better off than you were before.
And by great fortune we mean no money, none involved,
(25:29):
just fame and right triumph um. Also, just one more time,
we want to give a shout out to our sterling
Kiva team which hit the hundred thousand dollars loaned Mark
a couple of weeks ago, and we're heading on two
d to fifty. Yeah, we haven't determined yet, No, but
we're going. We're still going. I see our next goal
(25:50):
as a hundred and ten. Yeah, that's we're almost there. Okay,
we might be there already. I think we were like
one or nine right there. If you want to join
the Stuff you Should Know Kiva team and get this
to one ten, you can go to Kiva dot org
slash team slash Stuff you Should Know and we'll eventually
get back to listener mail again. So send us an email,
(26:12):
type it and then put in that little two line
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