July 27, 2021 • 47 mins
Britney Spears has made a lot of noise lately in her bid to nullify her conservatorship. But what are they even? Listen in to find out!
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I
Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer who's
actually a real producer too, Dave Kustin. So guest producer
(00:24):
in your mind means ghost producer. And no, I don't
think he's dead, are you dead, Dave? Well, not a
real producer? What's going on here? So he is the
producer of short Stuff, which is technically a spinoff of
Stuff you Should Know. But he's here sitting in for
Jerry on Stuff you Should Know, which would make him
a guest in this particular context. But enough about that.
(00:49):
I was just saying all that to welcome everybody. Now
it's ruined forever. Sorry, Instead, Chuck, I think that we
should talk about conservatorships. And before you saying thing, Oh no, no,
what are you saying? Inhale? Yeah, I understand. I think
everybody who didn't realize what episode they were listening to
just Inhaled too. Um. I searched high and low for
(01:13):
something to relate this too. In the real world. It
could find like nothing. So this is probably gonna be
a fairly boring, dry episode on you know, legalities and
the legal system, with no no application to to real
life and certainly no application to pop culture whatsoever. So
buckle up, everybody, I guess what I'm trying to say. Oops,
(01:36):
you did it again. Oh I happened to be wearing
a Catholic schoolgirls skirt right now too. Uh. Yeah, so
this obviously came to me because of the Britney Spear situation. Uh.
I don't know a lot about Britney Spears and didn't
know a lot about her situation other than loosely hearing
about it in the news. But the more I poked around, uh,
(01:59):
the more I was like, man, this really this really
smacks of sort of the old days, you know, like
your honor, my wife or my daughter is crazy and
we need to do something about this. And uh, I
use that terminology because that's that's kind of how it
used to go back in the day. And sadly that
kind of stuff still happens through things like conservatorships. And
(02:22):
so it turns out that it's a pretty straightforward thing.
But in her case, the waters are pretty muddy. Yeah. Well,
she's a really rare case. The only other person I
can think of that even comes close to fitting the
bill for this very rare type of conservatorship that Britney
Spears has is a Manda Binds, who is another child
star who kind of publicly melted down. I guess you
(02:45):
could put in whose mother got her into conservatorship, which
I think she's still under today. Um, and Bristles under
it publicly too. So UM. Most of the time, when
you're talking about conservatorships, which is basically one person legally
have think the ability and authority to make this decisions
on behalf of somebody else. You're talking about somebody who
(03:06):
has gone into a coma, UM, somebody who has had
um uh cognitive um difficulties maybe for life. UM, somebody
just suffering from Alzheimer's something like that. Much much more
more often than not, it's it's something that's part of
elder law. A conservatorship is. So it's really we it's rare, weird,
(03:30):
you can just say weird. It's very weird that Britney
Spears very healthy, um with it active. UM Like, I
think she's like thirty somethings early thirties right now, Um, No,
late thirtis. I think she's thirty nine. Um, she that
that she would be in a conservatorship, but she has,
she has been since she was twenty six and and
(03:51):
it may maybe she's coming out of it. No one
can say for sure. That it's kind of looked like, well,
of course they're going to let her out of it
multiple times in the past, but it seems like from
what I understand now, she might actually finally get out
from the conservative ship at this point. Who knows. Yeah, so, um,
just a little quick background if you didn't know, uh,
(04:12):
and not to get too in the weeds. But in
two thousand and eight, Britney Spears had uh what people
have described online as a kind of a public melting
down her. Her family was worried about her, She was
hospitalized for mental health issues a couple of times. She
famously shaved her head and was very aggressive with the paparazzi.
(04:33):
And you know, it's very easy for some people, I
guess in her family, to say, hey, she has some
mental issues, she needs some help, Um, let me step
in and establish a conservatorship. But it's also easy as
an outsider to look back now and say, hey, she
went through some stuff. The paparazzi is awful and terrible
(04:54):
and what might you do in that situation? And maybe
she just needed a little assistance to get through a
recular time in her life. And here we are in one,
all these years later, and she still has her father
basically in charge of the decisions of her life financially
and with her health and uh and in certain cases
or career, and she's she's trying to get him out
(05:16):
of there first and foremost as her conservator, and also
trying to get the conservator ship itself dissolved. Yeah, because
I think one of the things that makes her case
so gut wrenching is that basically her worst enemy, her father,
was put in charge of her life against her will,
and she's lived like that for thirteen years. Um. So well,
(05:37):
I mean, we'll like, we'll talk about how her case applies,
you know, um, throughout the episode for sure, but just
to kind of like lay down the groundwork for what
a conservatorship is, um. There Apparently there's not one set
legal definition like you could very easily just basically say
it's where somebody's legally in charge of somebody else's decisions. Um.
(05:59):
Some states call guardianship, other states call it conservator ship. UM.
But the whole point of it is that somebody has
been deemed unable to make good decisions for themselves to
some sometimes physically take care of themselves or maybe even both,
and so the court um has been petitioned to kind
(06:20):
of give someone else the ability to make those decisions
to take care of that person. And the point of it,
if you really, if you take away the whole Britney
Spears thing and any kind of um sketchiness that can
kind of pervade this whole kind of this, this this
legal weirdness. UM, it's kind of an act of love
to step in and say, this person is in really
(06:42):
bad dire straits right now, and um, I will help
them while they're going through this or possibly for the
rest of their lives. I'm willing to take care of
their needs and see to it that they're taken care of.
That's what it's supposed to be about at base sure,
and ideally that's how it goes down. UM. There is
not a lot of data about conservatorships and how often
(07:03):
they are petitioned to get uh UM uninstated. I think
it's removed like uninstated. I like it too. It's a great,
great word. Now Okay, I just made up a new Wordever,
you could win boggle with that. Chuck uh. And we'll
get to the you know why that is a little
bit later. But Um, when you petition a court, what
(07:25):
happens is there's an evaluation that the court orders of
this person who is known as a conservative, and the
person in charges the conservatore, and there's an attorney appointed
to represent them, and they hold a hearing and they
decide whether or not this is something that they should
move forward with. There's an evaluation done. Um, the person
(07:48):
is allowed to speak on their behalf at this time. Um,
it's not the kind of thing where you can, uh
just be railroaded. And I'm not exactly sure the details
of Britney Spears and when it first happened as far
as if she was like, yeah, this is for the
best right now, or if she thought him in the beginning,
but I think she was. Um, you're saying no, no
(08:09):
to which one to to the first that or that
she was she was in favor of I'll tell you
a second, all right, we'll goad you want me to
tell you now we have to wait a second. Any longer. Okay,
I'll fill you and Chuck get that. I watched some
of the documentary, but I had other things to do.
I saw the documentary two was surprisingly ho hum and
totally one sided. I thought it was really kind of
(08:29):
gross in a lot of ways, but interesting for sure. UM.
But I also read a I read a really good
New Yorker um article, a recent one from July three,
I think called Britney Spears Conservative Conservatorship Nightmare by Ronan
Pharaoh and Jia Tolentino to reporters, and it is just
a moment by moment breakdown on well Brittney's breakdown, and
(08:50):
then also like how she ended up in it, And
from this and other sources, I saw that basically she
was not informed um that she was being placed into
conservatorship beforehand, which from what I can tell, is a
gross violation of her rights in that sense, and that
she didn't have a chance to petition the court to
(09:11):
basically say no. And then by the time she found
out about it and tried to petition it, she was
told that she was not in any kind of mental
state to hire her own counsel, and so she had
counsel appointed to her so she never had an evaluation
from so the judge in this case is now retired.
And she said that that is not true. Of course
(09:31):
she was evaluated, and I talked to her and all
that stuff. But the way that this is described as
it was a ten minute thing, and it was they
went in and and as far like on the surface,
the her parents went in and petitioned the judge in
ten minutes later, the judge granted full I guess temporary
conservatorship um without any any other formalities. That's how it
(09:53):
That's how it is, you know, on its face. And
then the judges denying that there was any back room
um eels or anything made beforehand. So it doesn't really
make sense and it kind of stinks to high heaven
in that respect. Yeah, what did she think was going on? Then?
Who Brittany? When she was evaluated? That's the thing. I
(10:13):
don't know that she was evaluated. She had just undergone
two fifties, where the the basically the states van Halens too,
not just one too, she had a fifty one fifty
and an o U eight one too. Oh man, she
um she no. So the fifties where somebody can basically
say this person is is um is mentally unstable right now,
(10:35):
they may be a harm to themselves or others, And
the fire department comes and gets you and takes you
off to the hospital where you're kept against your will
for seventy two hours. That happened to her twice, and
upon the second one, her parents went and petitioned the
court to to grant them conservatorship, and the court did.
I don't know anything about an evaluation that actually took
(10:57):
place as part of the conservatorship. I get the impression that, like, oh,
she said to Fies, that's enough for me. Interesting, by
the way, we can't say that without shouting out, listener,
Aaron Hagar, Oh yeah, that's right to yeah, alright. So
there are some different types of conservator ships. One is financial,
(11:18):
and they often work hand in hand and sometimes kind
of have to. Financial obviously is when you are in
charge of someone's finances. The conservative themselves have autonomy, but
they don't have financial autonomy. Um, they can't, you know,
go out and buy a house or rent a house,
or make any big purchases or maybe even any kind
(11:39):
of purchases without the conservatory sort of being there along
the way saying it's fine. Yeah, and I think they
also have, like they generally have spending money. They're given
an allowance, um, so they'll have that at least, But yeah,
for the big purchases, no way, uh. Physical is when
their health and basically medical decisions, their health, their life
(12:01):
kind of everything is controlled by the conservativetour and I'm
gonna mess it up at some point, um, whether or
not they want to go to a therapist, or whether
or not they wanted to have certain medications. Supposedly they
you know, you can't make someone take medication um legally,
but it again, especially in her case, it gets very
(12:22):
murky with some of the charges she's levied against her
father as far as that stuff goes, Yeah, and I
mean on that in particular, what I saw was that
the carrot and the stick that her father uses against
her is visitation rights for her to see her kids.
Because that was definitely one thing that came through and
a lot of stuff I've been reading is that like
(12:43):
she is super dedicated to her kids and they've been
just kept from her for you know, they're basically their
whole lives, and that that was ultimately what really led
to her meltdown. You know, the pop rocks. He didn't
help and you know, it's being a star. All of
that stuff did not help um. But that don't it
was you know, it's her kids that is really like
the dagger that just gets turned in her chest every time,
(13:05):
like she she had to like leave or they had
to leave um, and that her father dangles that over her,
like if you don't do this, if you don't sign
this contractor and do these performances, you know, I can't
let you see the kids or whatever. So that's apparently
that's because he gets a cut. He does. He gets
one point five percent of all new deals too. Yeah,
and she's made a lot of money in the past,
(13:27):
you know, years that she's been blocked down. She's had
a very successful Vegas run. She had a couple of
big albums. She's been guest judges on a couple of
the big competition shows. So she's not she's out there
earning a lot of money still for her and Pops. Uh,
there's general conservator ships and that is when it's it's
(13:48):
kind of everything and these are more common. It's kind
of rare. It seems like for there to be uh
only a physical conservatorship without being a financial because those
things are probably kind of go hand in hand. So
general is all encompassing, and then you have your limited
conservatorship where it's uh. Usually this is a case where
(14:12):
it may be like, um, let's say an adult that's
disabled in some way that still wants to have and
can have autonomy, physical autonomy, and maybe hold down a
job and have their own apartment, but there's just certain
parts of their life that a conservator will handle, right. So, um,
(14:33):
the everything I saw is that limited is what you're
ultimately going for. When you're establishing a conservatorship, you want
to you want to minimize the number of restrictions necessary
to help the person through their life while maximizing their
individual liberties. Yes, so, so when it goes down, Yeah,
and it's not supposed to be a one size fits
(14:55):
all like boom, this person has all control over them.
It's like how much do you need? How much? How
much do they need to give up? That's supposed to
be the goal of a conservatorship hearing Yeah, uh, and
then you've got Sometimes they're categorized by their length. You
can have short term, temporary, or permanent. With short term, um,
(15:16):
usually it's not more than a few months than ninety days,
and it's because of something that happened. It's an immediate need. Um,
these can sometimes go down without that formal hearing that
we were talking about because it is short term and
and you know, capped off at a certain point. That
is different than temporary though. Um, temporary can turn into permanent,
(15:40):
whereas I don't think short term can. Yeah, I think
temporaries where they're like, Okay, this person may get better
at some point, but we have no idea when. But
when they do get better, they're gonna want to have
their life back, So let's just make this temporary. Short
term is where I saw. I saw that it's frequently
used for when somebody is going into like drug rehab
or something like that and they have like a lot
(16:01):
of plates in the air or a lot of finances. Um.
Although one of the things that I saw is that
finances are not supposed to be a reason for conservatorship, right,
It's supposed to be to help. I'm afraid they'll spend
all their money. Yes, that's supposed to not be a
justification for conservatorship. And the problem that I have from
(16:24):
the outside with Britney Spears conservatorship is that it seems
to be predicated on that that it's almost like this poor,
this poor person, her brand grew bigger than her, and
so to protect the brand from potentially her, you know,
spending it into the ground or whatever, they placed her
(16:45):
in conservative conservatorship so that she can't she can't make
decisions about her own brand, and then that's being kind
of reflected on her own life. So she's being held
hostage against well and also being forced to perform. It's
one of the most bizarre things I think that's ever
happened in the legal systems, and especially it's nuts that
it's been ongoing for so long too and so public. Yeah,
(17:06):
it's a very interesting case. Uh all right, let's take
a break. Yeah, yeah, alright, no name is Steve's not
saying nay, what if they've just piped in. I was like, no,
keep going, keep going, I'm the conservative here. We'll be
back right after this. Learning's stop with Joshua John Stop.
(17:45):
If you want to know then you're in luck. Just
listen up to Chuck Fuson. So, Chuck, there was one
other type of conservatorship by duration that we didn't mention.
That is apparently pretty typical, which is permanent. Oh yeah,
(18:08):
I mentioned that. I guess I thought it was self explanatory.
It's permanent. Go on, well, it's permanent in spirit. Um.
But you can, as we're seeing now, file to have
it removed or I don't even know that word I
coined earlier, unreinstated. I don't even think um, I'm sorry,
(18:30):
re uninstated, so um noninstated. See the whole point of
coining new words, you gotta be able to use them
at the you know, drop of the hat. Yeah, but
I mean you gotta take some practice, you know what
I'm saying. So the reason permanent, though um is so typical,
and as far as conservatorships goes because most of the
(18:50):
time when you end up in conservatorship, it's because you
suffered some sort of very debilitating problem or you've had
it your whole life, like it's just it's it's it's
a long term issue that you're dealing with. So you're
this is a long term solution of permanent conservatorship, right,
And that really ties hand in hand with kind of
(19:11):
the next part about how to get one um. It
is usually almost always because of some sort of mental
incapacity of some form, whether that's temporary or like you
said earlier, for a temporary like you know, someone's in
an accident and there in a coma, but they come
out of the coma in two weeks and then you know,
work their way back to good health again and they
(19:32):
wake up and there like Ricky Lake, we're engaged now, Lake. Wow,
you really pulled that one out of some thank you,
thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, you know we
mentioned stuff like dimension Alzheimer's. That is a very very
common case um for conservator ships. Or if you have,
(19:54):
like you said, from birth, if you have some sort
of um, permanent disability, um, no matter how that came about,
then that's you know, oftentimes like parents or some other
family member just from the time you're a kid, had
that conservatorship. Yeah, and and basically there's like a two
pronged tests to applying a conservatorship. I'm gonna say it
correctly the first time one of these one of these
(20:15):
times in this episode, I can't even say conservatives I can't.
That's great. Check. Um, so is the person unable to
basically meet their own basic needs like care for themselves,
feed themselves, that kind of stuff, um, in which case
there would be a conservatorship of the person where you
(20:37):
can make like medical decisions for them, maybe living arrangements,
like decide if they're going to live in a long
term care facility something like that, or and or um.
Can they make decisions for themselves which are um sound
financially like can they understand a contract that they're signing.
Can they understand that if they, you know, buy this house,
(20:59):
that they have to pay this amount of money or
something like. And if they can't do either or both
of those things, then a conservatorship might be just the
thing to kind of help them make it through life,
especially again if they have um substantial wealth or if
they are just totally unable to care for themselves. Yeah,
and you know the way this goes down ideally and
(21:22):
I think more typically than what we're seeing in Britney
Spears cases. You know, medical records are presented there, the
probate or family court is handling this, the conservaty is
either understands and goes along with it because they know
it's for their own good or um isn't you know,
it is clearly not capable, which is why they need
(21:43):
the conservatory to to begin with of making these decisions.
And again, it's just super rare for this kind of
case where someone is having something done seemingly against their will,
kind of from the kid go yeah, I mean, like,
for the most for the most part, if you're in
a conservatorship, like you might not even be conscious, you
might have no idea that you're under a conservatorship. Um,
(22:04):
you might not be able to work or hold down
a job or remember to feed yourself. You're certainly not
going on world tour and releasing four albums, two of
which go platinum, and then maintaining a Vegas residency and
generating a hundred thirty million dollars in income over you know,
ten thirteen years something like that. It just makes it's
(22:24):
just so bizarre. It's so bizarre. And I have to say, also,
one other thing, I don't want to give the impression
that I'm just like a like a hashtag free Brittany person.
Like I understand that those people have um just the
best intentions, and my hat is off to them. But
I also think it's very very wise to remember, like
we're seeing all this from the outside, most of the
court documents involved are sealed and so there's a lot
(22:47):
of like t leaf reading and trying to figure out
what's really going on here. And it's it's entirely possible
that that this conservatorship has kind of helped Brittany. Like
the people who defend who been involved and defend it, say,
you know, she had a couple of million dollars left
some of the worst people in the world surrounding her. Um,
(23:08):
her money was going fast, her brand was starting to go,
and now she's worth like sixty to eighty million dollars.
She's back on top. She doesn't have a bunch of
scummy people hanging around her UM. And then the scummy
people are like no, these people came in and wrestled
control of Brittany's own life and now they're in charge
of her and they're they're builking her for money. So
(23:28):
it's it's really impossible to tell who to trust at
this point in time. So I think it's it's wise
to to at least keep something of an open mind,
even if it seems totally on the surface like this,
this pop star is being held prisoner in public. You know, well,
when you need those TV's ready, you know, you get
hold on hold on. I don't know, you get run
(23:51):
in Pharaoh. That's right, Frank Sinatra Jr. That's right? Is no,
he's junior junior right? Oh well, I'm he supposedly no,
I mean he's supposedly what the Allan's son? But that's right.
I mean I'm not the first person. I mean, that's
it's a it's a big thing online, like come on,
(24:13):
that's that's Frank's kid. Sure, but who knows supposedly not?
I don't know. Okay, we're just hitting the celebrity beat
all over the place. Uh do you remember kids beat
on Nickelodeon? Ye see you next. That popped into my
head the other day out of nowhere, and I was like,
(24:34):
did I just make that up? That was a thing though,
h yeah, I I don't remember anything but that catchphrase.
That's same here here, nothing else. Maybe we had a
group hallucination. It's possible, like the Bear and Stain bears.
Uh oh yeah, that's right. What's that called? Uh yeah? Alright?
So uh in her case in California and this House
(24:57):
to Works article that we got a lot of this
from highlights this um it is different in every state
with with a lot of legalities like this, So it
will differ depending on where you are. But in California
they have something called the Judicial Council of California's Handbook
for Conservatories, where it does lay out about a dozen
rights of someone like Britney Spears, which one of which
(25:19):
is they can directly receive their salary. So supposedly she
like it's it's not like the checks getting written to
Jamie Spears and he doles it out. Supposedly, by law,
she is receiving her salary. Still, oh oh that's not
at all what I heard. Oh really, she has her
living expenses met and they total about four hundred and
twenty five thousand dollars a year um. So she has
(25:42):
everything she wants, but she doesn't pay for anything herself.
That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the check isn't
made out in her name. Oh no, no, no, no, absolutely,
you're right, you're right. But the whole, the whole, her
dad doling it out. That's yeah. Yeah. What I'm just
saying is is like the check doesn't come name, Yeah, no,
it's all it's all in her name. Still, the right
(26:05):
to receive calls and mail and see people. Uh, you
can change your will Um, legally, you can get married,
you can hire your own lawyer, which was has been
a big bone of contention with the Britney Spears case
because she had this court appointed lawyer for many, many
years until very recently when she was finally like, can
(26:25):
I at least hire my own person? And the whole
Free Brittany crew has basically been like that that lawyer
is chummy with her dad, like he's working for her
dad rather than her you know. Um, so yeah, it
might have been. That's why at the beginning I was saying,
like she might finally be getting out from under this
conservatorship because she has a new lawyer of her own choosing.
(26:46):
There's a new sheriff in town, there is, and everybody's
running for the hills. Uh. What we're seeing play out
now or another couple of things on the list the
request to either change conservators or in the conservatorship, they
are allowed to out, Um, they're allowed to control their
own allowance, but it doesn't you know that very clearly
(27:07):
doesn't mean they're allowed to establish their own allowance, yeah,
or what the amount is or anything. Yeah. Uh, their
medical decisions and business transactions are should be under their
control and uh was there one more UM. So basically,
anything you're allowed to do at the at the beginning
of it the conservatorship, you should be able to throw out. UM.
(27:30):
There were a couple of things in there that that
and that was I think California's rights, right, Yeah, so
this is a California case. She's under a California conservatorship,
so all of those should very much apply to her. UM.
But she has said recently that like her father won't
let her get married, he decides who she can date
or not date. And again I don't think that's that's legal,
(27:53):
but I think he can threaten like um uh um,
not just visitation like UM, restraining orders. He can take
out restraining orders in her name against whomever he deems
um like inappropriate, and I guess can demonstrate to the
court that this person might be a bad influence on
her UM and that that that's probably how he is
(28:15):
has been able to decide who she dates or doesn't
date because she wants to marry a dude right now,
she says, and have more kids. And the other big
the really truly shocking revelation that she she revealed recently
is that she has an I U d that her
father won't let her remove she can't have kids, so
her reproductive rights are being infringed upon under this conservatorship,
(28:37):
and that is a very big deal. Yeah. And again
this is the kind of stuff where there's there's two
two sides talking and we don't know the real truth
on the inside. But at the very least, like when
an accusation like that big is is levied, you have to,
as a I would think as the court, have to
look into that kind of thing. Yeah. And there there
(28:58):
have been court appointed in instigators before um, and one
of them I read concluded like she should probably not
be under this conservatorship anymore. It wasn't like you know,
they joined the Free Brittany crowd or anything like that,
but like that was their report and their recommendation. Um.
But it's like you're saying, you know, we're seeing this
from the outside. So like the people who who are
(29:21):
on the inside in this conservatorship point out, like you know,
she wasn't worth very much, um then and she's now,
so she's kind of thriving under this arrangement, which is
apparently a way that a conservators somebody could end up
in a conservatorship for the rest of the life, thriving
under the conservatorship, and then conversely, if you struggle under
(29:42):
the conservatorship and have a really hard time, that can
be used as evidence that you need to be under
the conservatorship as well. So you kind of get this
impression that it's like a if you're if you're like
a with it, person able to make your own decisions,
and you find yourself in a conservatorship, you probably feel
like you're just totally out of your mind and just
can't believe this is happening to it sounds nightmarish. If
(30:02):
if if it's like as bad as from what Brittany
is saying it is, you know, well yeah, and I'm
sure she's in a case where she's trying to establish
something a little more nuanced, like emotional well being, rather
than like someone can a judge can say, look at
all this money you've made since this has happened, and
you know it's there's a lot more to it than that, though,
it's to be a whole human well that's another thing
(30:24):
too though. So the original co conservator, along with Jamie Spears,
Brittany's father was a guy named Andrew Wallett and he
was court appointed. Terrible name for a conservator, terrible, like
he should have just been like, I can't be a
conservator because of my last name. But he was Andrew C. O. D.
And he was for many many many years actually, and
(30:46):
actually it was under under his conservatorship or co conservatorship
that she kind of like came back and started working
again and um started making money again. Uh, and I
guess kind of thrived at least as a business um.
And he was basically run out of the conservatorship on
a rail because he asked for a salary towards the
(31:07):
end of four hundred and twenty six thousand dollars a year,
which is a lot of money. The thing is, his
point was like, look, if you're a conservator, basically under
normal circumstances, you're just kind of keeping up with somebody's
quiet life, one one everyday person and their quiet life
and their little finances and making sure they're taken care of.
(31:29):
As as conservator of Britney Spears, the state, he was
like running basically a international business that had all these
fingers and all these pots. And he said, most people
who are in that position make millions of dollars a year.
I'm asking for four d so like that to me
was a real reminder, like, oh yeah, there's actually two
(31:50):
sides of this coin, Like this is an unusual situation
for anybody. Um, and it kind of makes sense in
that respect, although if you look at the normal amount
that it can would would charge for their time. Um,
he was asking for a lot. Actually, yeah, and that's
a good point as far as your obligation as conservator
(32:10):
you uh, And again put Britney Spears aside for a second,
and these ideal situations, they are genuinely taking care of
these people, meeting their daily needs and necessities, making sure
all their bills are paid and their checkbook is balanced,
and you know, they don't go in the whole financially. Um.
The big hooking point here, though, is is that if
(32:32):
you're a financial conservator, you're not supposed to be using
that person's money for your own benefit. Like you said,
you are allowed to take a salary, and it says
in this article somewhere between forty and a hundred dollars
per hour, which means Jamie Spears uh is taking a
hundred dollars per hour at forty hours a week. Because
(32:56):
he's getting sixteen thousand dollars a month and that that's
what it comes to, like the basically the top rate
at forty hours per week, which when you look at that,
I mean if that he, like you said, though, he
also gets a cut of her stuff, um to play
devil's advocate. He is taking a salary commisserate with what
a conservator historically can take. Yeah, so Andrew Walllett, if
(33:20):
you look at it from the from the perspective, well
he's a conservator and not actually like running the business,
then he'd yeah, he'd have to work more than eighty
hours a week, fifty weeks a year at a hundred
dollars an hour. But again his point was, this isn't
a normal conservatorship. This is running the Britney spears in
multinational enterprise for her benefit, you know. Yeah, and if
(33:42):
you're the conservatory, you also you know you're gonna at
some point probably have to answer to the court, especially
in some case like this. So you've gotta have all
your ducks in a row, you've got to keep receipts,
and you've got to have a paper trail to kind
of back up everything. You can't just waltz in there
and say like, trust me, everything's going fine. Um, supposedly
you're gonna have to have pretty robust records for kind
(34:04):
of every financial decision you're making on behalf of your
conservative So that's ideally, Um, now we reached the reality
and that's this is one good thing of Britney spears
um uh conservatorship and all the light she's shining on
conservatorship abuse right now is like this is an issue
in normal, like non celebrity society where people can get
(34:26):
preyed upon by basically a professional conservator um. And there's
a General Accounting Office report that basically said, the states
have no idea how many people, how many of its
citizens or residents are under conservatorship right now, how much
money is being held in conservatorship right now. They might
(34:47):
have a good idea in some cases, and other cases
they have no idea. And as part of the report,
the g a O basically made up UM identities in
like four different states around the country and applied for
conservatorship and they were granted in all four cases. Are
all four states conservatorship to to be to go out
(35:09):
and be a conservator to a stranger and take control
of some strangers finances as part of like as their career,
and the states didn't check their background, didn't run their
social Security numbers, didn't do a credit check, didn't do anything.
They just basically rubber stamped it. Like this person wants
to be a conservator. There you go. You're a state
licensed conservator now, who can go take control of the
(35:31):
finances of someone who's never even met you before? And like,
in that respect, this is ripe for abuse. This is
the kind of situation where a judge is morally obligated
to give as much attention to to each case as
needed to make sure hundred and ten percent sure that
(35:52):
the person under conservatorship is not being exploited, is not
being taken advantage of financially, is not being kept I
think they call it isolated UM, medicated and liquidated UM
and kept away from their family and their loved ones UM.
It can be a nightmare unless the court is overseeing
(36:13):
this properly, and apparently in all cases they don't, which
is just unconscionable, and judges who dropped the ball on
that should be run out of town right into jail themselves.
All right, let's take a break. Thanks, thanks for me,
and uh, we'll be back right after this to talk
(36:34):
about where how you can end these things and some
legislation that might could help as well right after this.
(37:02):
If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just
listen to Chuck Shon. Alright, so I mentioned before we
get into how you can terminate this. Uh, this sort
of dovetails with with your uh, with your great soapbox
moment right before the break. If I may say, uh,
(37:25):
there's legislation as of um, about an hour and a
half ago. I read this on New York Times. Wait
a minute, it was published an hour and a half.
Where you just read it an hour a half ago.
It was published an hour and a half ago. Wow,
that is late breaking for stuff. You should know. This
is super late breaking. Uh. Two members of the House
UH co sponsored. And you know when you see these
bills co sponsored on both sides of the aisles for
(37:47):
these kind of smaller bills, that's when you know that
government can work. Was it was it? Senator Lance Bass
and Senator Joey Fatone. That's good you uh. Coast answers. Rep.
Charlie Christ Democrat of Florida and Nancy Mace Republican from
South Carolina legislation that if they passed, it would create,
(38:09):
um a pathway for Britney Spears and other people to
replace their private guardian or conservator. So it basically um
it argues for more accountability. It argues UM that UM
that we need more data on this stuff. Like you
were saying, how like no one knows how much money
is tied up in this, No one knows how many
(38:31):
people are trying to get out of these There's just
like it's it's shockingly Uh. I don't want to just
say willie nilly because that's probably not fair, but understudied
at least, Yeah, under observed for sure. So uh, as
of now, in order to get out of a conservatorship,
(38:51):
you have to prove fraud or abuse that that is
has occurred to have that be replaced. And this bill
would kind of roll that back and say it doesn't
necessarily have to be abuse or fraud. It could just
be that they don't aren't comfortable with it, their emotional
well being is not being met or whatever, and just
(39:12):
to make it a little bit easier to free someone
up from these conservatorships. And so we'll see that was
there was one a few years ago in twenty nineteen
that didn't get beyond the House Judiciary Committee. But everyone's
kind of thinking with all this attention right now because
the Britney Spears case, that they might have a little
momentum to get something like that done. Oh yeah, big time.
(39:32):
Like there's called the Free Act. By the way, Uh,
they appreciate the acronyms freedom now freedom and Right to
Emancipate from Exploitation Act. Okay, all right, I I can
respect like bending over backwards a little bit to make
that work. That was all right, okay, I think Chuck. Also,
one of the reasons why they um, they have aired
(39:54):
to this point on the side of making it more
difficult to remove a conservatore is because they've kind of, um,
there's like a this maybe a suspicion that you know,
you could have a fight or a falling out or
something like that over something totally unrelated to the conservatorship,
and you know, the person could be Now, the person
(40:15):
could be like, that's it, you're not my conservatory more,
I want you out of my life or whatever. And
the person might be great as their conservator um, and
it might be a really good conservatorship, but it just
you know, there was that that moment or that following out,
So in that sense it should be made difficult. But
then on the other hand, it's like, is that really
the way we should be airing. Should we be airing toward,
(40:37):
you know, away from the rights and the desires of
the person who's whose life and responsibilities for their life
has been taken away from them, Like, shouldn't that shouldn't
they at least have the right to choose who's calling
the shots for them, who's making those decisions for them.
And I think ultimately I kind of leaned towards the
the rights of the individual. Yeah, I mean, it also
(41:00):
makes you wonder about, you know, if they're let's say
there's no kids involved and it's a case of, um,
someone of using drugs or something like. It is an
interesting slippery slope to think about whether an adult has
a right to throw their life away and and make
bad decisions, or whether or not it should be legal
for someone to be able to step in and save somebody.
(41:24):
It's like, that's just really I don't even know how
I feel about. It's just an interesting thought experiment. I
came across something called the right to risk, where basically
it's exactly what they just said, like everybody has the
right to just blow it completely, including a fortune, including fame,
including um, you know, alienating loved ones, doing whatever you
(41:44):
want to ruin your own life, that you have that
that right. But I think the law recognizes that there
are some some mental states that a person can can
enter to where they wouldn't otherwise want to do those things.
And I think that's what the people under who are
running Brittany's conservatorship are saying that, like Brittany isn't capable
(42:10):
of keeping people who would unduly influence her to to
throw her life away at bay. She can't keep those
people at bay. She doesn't understand the documents as she's signing,
and then there's whispers and or like hushed rumors of
like no, the real reason she'll probably be in a
(42:31):
permanent conservatorship is because there's some diagnosed mental illness that
is just sealed because it's a medical record. Um, and
that that's kind of like what gets leaked out on
the conservatorship side. So UM, I don't know. I think
having like uh an attorney that is of her choosing
(42:51):
who's sharp that is working for her and her alone
getting into this and really finding out what's what and
going into court. Um, I think that that would be Uh,
that's a I think that will be a really I'm
interested to see what the outcome of that is. I
don't see how that couldn't be a good step at
least to have more investigation done by someone of her choosing. Yeah,
(43:13):
because for years, apparently her big problem was not with
being under conservatorship. It was her dad being the conservator
and so he was co conservators with a couple of people,
and she apparently even was fine with one of them
for a little while, but then um, they resigned because
she said she wasn't fine with them any longer. And
then now it's just back to her dad being in
(43:34):
total soul control. So I wonder if, like, if her
dad is forced out and it's just strictly like lawyers
and fiduciaries who are in charge of her conservatorship, if
she would be like, no, this is fine, I'm fine
with this. I wonder, Uh, it's gonna be interesting to
see what happens with that and this legislation as they
kind of go hand in hand. Absolutely, do you got
(43:57):
anything else. I got nothing else. I do want to
shout out my pal Babs Gray Barbera Gray and Tess
Barker are two comedians in l A. And they were
in that documentary and have Champion in Britney's case for
a while. And they have a new podcast out and
it's called They had one called Britney's Graham Brittany's Instagram
the podcast but down. They have a new one called
(44:19):
Toxic Colon. And boy, if we get our new uh
Colan barbershop quartet interned there, that'd be great. The Britney
Spears story, so that's getting a lot of its interest
right now. Cool. Yeah, they're all over the place right now,
so big ups, big ups. Uh. If you want to
know more about Conservatorships and Brittney Spears and Lance Bass,
(44:40):
well you can just start searching the internet and jump
down that rabbit hole see what happens. And since I
said that, it's time, of course for a listener mail,
I'm gonna call this cool job that I've never heard of.
This is from one of our Irish friends. Oh yeah,
I love this one. Hey, guys. First things first, thanks
for a really great podcast. I've been listening every day
(45:01):
since my first day as a delivery driver five years
ago in Dublin, Ireland. It's been the week driving all
over the country and you've been my companions. Uh. Last
week I came across the episode Jobs from a Bygone Era,
a classic, and I wanted to share with you a
job my great grandfather did that definitely applies. He worked
in Dublin City as a knocker upper and I was like,
(45:22):
wait what. A knocker upper was a job that existed
at a time after the Industrial Revolution, but before alarm
clocks were widely available to the poorest that filled the
factories with workers for a tiny weekly fee. A knocker
upper was employed to knock on doors or tap on windows.
It's like a wake up call in a hotel. Basically,
(45:45):
they usually used to poll or a long stick or
bamboo to tap on the bedroom windows. There's great picks
online of a famous lady in London using a pea shooter. Uh.
My great grandfather though it was an even rarer breed
as he was known as a knocker uppers knocker upper.
He was employed by the other knocker ruppers to wake
(46:05):
them up wow, so they could go and wake up
the customers all over the city. Eventually they were all
put out of business when the country went electric. People
learn clocks hit the market, but they were snapshot in
time and provided much needed service. I wanted to share
this little bit of social history with you guys after
everything you've given me. Look forward to a live show
in Ireland sometime. Uh, Mike, we'd love to come back
(46:27):
to Ireland. We did did that show and that was
fun Dublin and it was one of the best. Yeah. Yeah,
that's that's a pretty great email, Mike, thank you for that.
Um Hey, I have a little anecdote about knocked up,
about knocked up. Yeah, so when Yumi was little, she
thought knocked up meant you were in trouble, like you
were grounded. Yeah, and um it led to at least
(46:49):
one case of hilarity with her dad asking where her
friend was and you me, so she's knocked up. She
came up dead. It's like, what can't come out for
a nine months? Is like, yeah, this is like nine
or ten years old, I think. So. Thanks Mike, thanks
little you me uh, and thank you guys for listening.
(47:11):
And if you want to get in touch with us,
like Mike did, you can send us an email to
stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should
Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
my heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I
Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer who's
actually a real producer too, Dave Kustin. So guest producer
(00:24):
in your mind means ghost producer. And no, I don't
think he's dead, are you dead, Dave? Well, not a
real producer? What's going on here? So he is the
producer of short Stuff, which is technically a spinoff of
Stuff you Should Know. But he's here sitting in for
Jerry on Stuff you Should Know, which would make him
a guest in this particular context. But enough about that.
(00:49):
I was just saying all that to welcome everybody. Now
it's ruined forever. Sorry, Instead, Chuck, I think that we
should talk about conservatorships. And before you saying thing, Oh no, no,
what are you saying? Inhale? Yeah, I understand. I think
everybody who didn't realize what episode they were listening to
just Inhaled too. Um. I searched high and low for
(01:13):
something to relate this too. In the real world. It
could find like nothing. So this is probably gonna be
a fairly boring, dry episode on you know, legalities and
the legal system, with no no application to to real
life and certainly no application to pop culture whatsoever. So
buckle up, everybody, I guess what I'm trying to say. Oops,
(01:36):
you did it again. Oh I happened to be wearing
a Catholic schoolgirls skirt right now too. Uh. Yeah, so
this obviously came to me because of the Britney Spear situation. Uh.
I don't know a lot about Britney Spears and didn't
know a lot about her situation other than loosely hearing
about it in the news. But the more I poked around, uh,
(01:59):
the more I was like, man, this really this really
smacks of sort of the old days, you know, like
your honor, my wife or my daughter is crazy and
we need to do something about this. And uh, I
use that terminology because that's that's kind of how it
used to go back in the day. And sadly that
kind of stuff still happens through things like conservatorships. And
(02:22):
so it turns out that it's a pretty straightforward thing.
But in her case, the waters are pretty muddy. Yeah. Well,
she's a really rare case. The only other person I
can think of that even comes close to fitting the
bill for this very rare type of conservatorship that Britney
Spears has is a Manda Binds, who is another child
star who kind of publicly melted down. I guess you
(02:45):
could put in whose mother got her into conservatorship, which
I think she's still under today. Um, and Bristles under
it publicly too. So UM. Most of the time, when
you're talking about conservatorships, which is basically one person legally
have think the ability and authority to make this decisions
on behalf of somebody else. You're talking about somebody who
(03:06):
has gone into a coma, UM, somebody who has had
um uh cognitive um difficulties maybe for life. UM, somebody
just suffering from Alzheimer's something like that. Much much more
more often than not, it's it's something that's part of
elder law. A conservatorship is. So it's really we it's rare, weird,
(03:30):
you can just say weird. It's very weird that Britney
Spears very healthy, um with it active. UM Like, I
think she's like thirty somethings early thirties right now, Um, No,
late thirtis. I think she's thirty nine. Um, she that
that she would be in a conservatorship, but she has,
she has been since she was twenty six and and
(03:51):
it may maybe she's coming out of it. No one
can say for sure. That it's kind of looked like, well,
of course they're going to let her out of it
multiple times in the past, but it seems like from
what I understand now, she might actually finally get out
from the conservative ship at this point. Who knows. Yeah, so, um,
just a little quick background if you didn't know, uh,
(04:12):
and not to get too in the weeds. But in
two thousand and eight, Britney Spears had uh what people
have described online as a kind of a public melting
down her. Her family was worried about her, She was
hospitalized for mental health issues a couple of times. She
famously shaved her head and was very aggressive with the paparazzi.
(04:33):
And you know, it's very easy for some people, I
guess in her family, to say, hey, she has some
mental issues, she needs some help, Um, let me step
in and establish a conservatorship. But it's also easy as
an outsider to look back now and say, hey, she
went through some stuff. The paparazzi is awful and terrible
(04:54):
and what might you do in that situation? And maybe
she just needed a little assistance to get through a
recular time in her life. And here we are in one,
all these years later, and she still has her father
basically in charge of the decisions of her life financially
and with her health and uh and in certain cases
or career, and she's she's trying to get him out
(05:16):
of there first and foremost as her conservator, and also
trying to get the conservator ship itself dissolved. Yeah, because
I think one of the things that makes her case
so gut wrenching is that basically her worst enemy, her father,
was put in charge of her life against her will,
and she's lived like that for thirteen years. Um. So well,
(05:37):
I mean, we'll like, we'll talk about how her case applies,
you know, um, throughout the episode for sure, but just
to kind of like lay down the groundwork for what
a conservatorship is, um. There Apparently there's not one set
legal definition like you could very easily just basically say
it's where somebody's legally in charge of somebody else's decisions. Um.
(05:59):
Some states call guardianship, other states call it conservator ship. UM.
But the whole point of it is that somebody has
been deemed unable to make good decisions for themselves to
some sometimes physically take care of themselves or maybe even both,
and so the court um has been petitioned to kind
(06:20):
of give someone else the ability to make those decisions
to take care of that person. And the point of it,
if you really, if you take away the whole Britney
Spears thing and any kind of um sketchiness that can
kind of pervade this whole kind of this, this this
legal weirdness. UM, it's kind of an act of love
to step in and say, this person is in really
(06:42):
bad dire straits right now, and um, I will help
them while they're going through this or possibly for the
rest of their lives. I'm willing to take care of
their needs and see to it that they're taken care of.
That's what it's supposed to be about at base sure,
and ideally that's how it goes down. UM. There is
not a lot of data about conservatorships and how often
(07:03):
they are petitioned to get uh UM uninstated. I think
it's removed like uninstated. I like it too. It's a great,
great word. Now Okay, I just made up a new Wordever,
you could win boggle with that. Chuck uh. And we'll
get to the you know why that is a little
bit later. But Um, when you petition a court, what
(07:25):
happens is there's an evaluation that the court orders of
this person who is known as a conservative, and the
person in charges the conservatore, and there's an attorney appointed
to represent them, and they hold a hearing and they
decide whether or not this is something that they should
move forward with. There's an evaluation done. Um, the person
(07:48):
is allowed to speak on their behalf at this time. Um,
it's not the kind of thing where you can, uh
just be railroaded. And I'm not exactly sure the details
of Britney Spears and when it first happened as far
as if she was like, yeah, this is for the
best right now, or if she thought him in the beginning,
but I think she was. Um, you're saying no, no
(08:09):
to which one to to the first that or that
she was she was in favor of I'll tell you
a second, all right, we'll goad you want me to
tell you now we have to wait a second. Any longer. Okay,
I'll fill you and Chuck get that. I watched some
of the documentary, but I had other things to do.
I saw the documentary two was surprisingly ho hum and
totally one sided. I thought it was really kind of
(08:29):
gross in a lot of ways, but interesting for sure. UM.
But I also read a I read a really good
New Yorker um article, a recent one from July three,
I think called Britney Spears Conservative Conservatorship Nightmare by Ronan
Pharaoh and Jia Tolentino to reporters, and it is just
a moment by moment breakdown on well Brittney's breakdown, and
(08:50):
then also like how she ended up in it, And
from this and other sources, I saw that basically she
was not informed um that she was being placed into
conservatorship beforehand, which from what I can tell, is a
gross violation of her rights in that sense, and that
she didn't have a chance to petition the court to
(09:11):
basically say no. And then by the time she found
out about it and tried to petition it, she was
told that she was not in any kind of mental
state to hire her own counsel, and so she had
counsel appointed to her so she never had an evaluation
from so the judge in this case is now retired.
And she said that that is not true. Of course
(09:31):
she was evaluated, and I talked to her and all
that stuff. But the way that this is described as
it was a ten minute thing, and it was they
went in and and as far like on the surface,
the her parents went in and petitioned the judge in
ten minutes later, the judge granted full I guess temporary
conservatorship um without any any other formalities. That's how it
(09:53):
That's how it is, you know, on its face. And
then the judges denying that there was any back room
um eels or anything made beforehand. So it doesn't really
make sense and it kind of stinks to high heaven
in that respect. Yeah, what did she think was going on? Then?
Who Brittany? When she was evaluated? That's the thing. I
(10:13):
don't know that she was evaluated. She had just undergone
two fifties, where the the basically the states van Halens too,
not just one too, she had a fifty one fifty
and an o U eight one too. Oh man, she
um she no. So the fifties where somebody can basically
say this person is is um is mentally unstable right now,
(10:35):
they may be a harm to themselves or others, And
the fire department comes and gets you and takes you
off to the hospital where you're kept against your will
for seventy two hours. That happened to her twice, and
upon the second one, her parents went and petitioned the
court to to grant them conservatorship, and the court did.
I don't know anything about an evaluation that actually took
(10:57):
place as part of the conservatorship. I get the impression that, like, oh,
she said to Fies, that's enough for me. Interesting, by
the way, we can't say that without shouting out, listener,
Aaron Hagar, Oh yeah, that's right to yeah, alright. So
there are some different types of conservator ships. One is financial,
(11:18):
and they often work hand in hand and sometimes kind
of have to. Financial obviously is when you are in
charge of someone's finances. The conservative themselves have autonomy, but
they don't have financial autonomy. Um, they can't, you know,
go out and buy a house or rent a house,
or make any big purchases or maybe even any kind
(11:39):
of purchases without the conservatory sort of being there along
the way saying it's fine. Yeah, and I think they
also have, like they generally have spending money. They're given
an allowance, um, so they'll have that at least, But yeah,
for the big purchases, no way, uh. Physical is when
their health and basically medical decisions, their health, their life
(12:01):
kind of everything is controlled by the conservativetour and I'm
gonna mess it up at some point, um, whether or
not they want to go to a therapist, or whether
or not they wanted to have certain medications. Supposedly they
you know, you can't make someone take medication um legally,
but it again, especially in her case, it gets very
(12:22):
murky with some of the charges she's levied against her
father as far as that stuff goes, Yeah, and I
mean on that in particular, what I saw was that
the carrot and the stick that her father uses against
her is visitation rights for her to see her kids.
Because that was definitely one thing that came through and
a lot of stuff I've been reading is that like
(12:43):
she is super dedicated to her kids and they've been
just kept from her for you know, they're basically their
whole lives, and that that was ultimately what really led
to her meltdown. You know, the pop rocks. He didn't
help and you know, it's being a star. All of
that stuff did not help um. But that don't it
was you know, it's her kids that is really like
the dagger that just gets turned in her chest every time,
(13:05):
like she she had to like leave or they had
to leave um, and that her father dangles that over her,
like if you don't do this, if you don't sign
this contractor and do these performances, you know, I can't
let you see the kids or whatever. So that's apparently
that's because he gets a cut. He does. He gets
one point five percent of all new deals too. Yeah,
and she's made a lot of money in the past,
(13:27):
you know, years that she's been blocked down. She's had
a very successful Vegas run. She had a couple of
big albums. She's been guest judges on a couple of
the big competition shows. So she's not she's out there
earning a lot of money still for her and Pops. Uh,
there's general conservator ships and that is when it's it's
(13:48):
kind of everything and these are more common. It's kind
of rare. It seems like for there to be uh
only a physical conservatorship without being a financial because those
things are probably kind of go hand in hand. So
general is all encompassing, and then you have your limited
conservatorship where it's uh. Usually this is a case where
(14:12):
it may be like, um, let's say an adult that's
disabled in some way that still wants to have and
can have autonomy, physical autonomy, and maybe hold down a
job and have their own apartment, but there's just certain
parts of their life that a conservator will handle, right. So, um,
(14:33):
the everything I saw is that limited is what you're
ultimately going for. When you're establishing a conservatorship, you want
to you want to minimize the number of restrictions necessary
to help the person through their life while maximizing their
individual liberties. Yes, so, so when it goes down, Yeah,
and it's not supposed to be a one size fits
(14:55):
all like boom, this person has all control over them.
It's like how much do you need? How much? How
much do they need to give up? That's supposed to
be the goal of a conservatorship hearing Yeah, uh, and
then you've got Sometimes they're categorized by their length. You
can have short term, temporary, or permanent. With short term, um,
(15:16):
usually it's not more than a few months than ninety days,
and it's because of something that happened. It's an immediate need. Um,
these can sometimes go down without that formal hearing that
we were talking about because it is short term and
and you know, capped off at a certain point. That
is different than temporary though. Um, temporary can turn into permanent,
(15:40):
whereas I don't think short term can. Yeah, I think
temporaries where they're like, Okay, this person may get better
at some point, but we have no idea when. But
when they do get better, they're gonna want to have
their life back, So let's just make this temporary. Short
term is where I saw. I saw that it's frequently
used for when somebody is going into like drug rehab
or something like that and they have like a lot
(16:01):
of plates in the air or a lot of finances. Um.
Although one of the things that I saw is that
finances are not supposed to be a reason for conservatorship, right,
It's supposed to be to help. I'm afraid they'll spend
all their money. Yes, that's supposed to not be a
justification for conservatorship. And the problem that I have from
(16:24):
the outside with Britney Spears conservatorship is that it seems
to be predicated on that that it's almost like this poor,
this poor person, her brand grew bigger than her, and
so to protect the brand from potentially her, you know,
spending it into the ground or whatever, they placed her
(16:45):
in conservative conservatorship so that she can't she can't make
decisions about her own brand, and then that's being kind
of reflected on her own life. So she's being held
hostage against well and also being forced to perform. It's
one of the most bizarre things I think that's ever
happened in the legal systems, and especially it's nuts that
it's been ongoing for so long too and so public. Yeah,
(17:06):
it's a very interesting case. Uh all right, let's take
a break. Yeah, yeah, alright, no name is Steve's not
saying nay, what if they've just piped in. I was like, no,
keep going, keep going, I'm the conservative here. We'll be
back right after this. Learning's stop with Joshua John Stop.
(17:45):
If you want to know then you're in luck. Just
listen up to Chuck Fuson. So, Chuck, there was one
other type of conservatorship by duration that we didn't mention.
That is apparently pretty typical, which is permanent. Oh yeah,
(18:08):
I mentioned that. I guess I thought it was self explanatory.
It's permanent. Go on, well, it's permanent in spirit. Um.
But you can, as we're seeing now, file to have
it removed or I don't even know that word I
coined earlier, unreinstated. I don't even think um, I'm sorry,
(18:30):
re uninstated, so um noninstated. See the whole point of
coining new words, you gotta be able to use them
at the you know, drop of the hat. Yeah, but
I mean you gotta take some practice, you know what
I'm saying. So the reason permanent, though um is so typical,
and as far as conservatorships goes because most of the
(18:50):
time when you end up in conservatorship, it's because you
suffered some sort of very debilitating problem or you've had
it your whole life, like it's just it's it's it's
a long term issue that you're dealing with. So you're
this is a long term solution of permanent conservatorship, right,
And that really ties hand in hand with kind of
(19:11):
the next part about how to get one um. It
is usually almost always because of some sort of mental
incapacity of some form, whether that's temporary or like you
said earlier, for a temporary like you know, someone's in
an accident and there in a coma, but they come
out of the coma in two weeks and then you know,
work their way back to good health again and they
(19:32):
wake up and there like Ricky Lake, we're engaged now, Lake. Wow,
you really pulled that one out of some thank you,
thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, you know we
mentioned stuff like dimension Alzheimer's. That is a very very
common case um for conservator ships. Or if you have,
(19:54):
like you said, from birth, if you have some sort
of um, permanent disability, um, no matter how that came about,
then that's you know, oftentimes like parents or some other
family member just from the time you're a kid, had
that conservatorship. Yeah, and and basically there's like a two
pronged tests to applying a conservatorship. I'm gonna say it
correctly the first time one of these one of these
(20:15):
times in this episode, I can't even say conservatives I can't.
That's great. Check. Um, so is the person unable to
basically meet their own basic needs like care for themselves,
feed themselves, that kind of stuff, um, in which case
there would be a conservatorship of the person where you
(20:37):
can make like medical decisions for them, maybe living arrangements,
like decide if they're going to live in a long
term care facility something like that, or and or um.
Can they make decisions for themselves which are um sound
financially like can they understand a contract that they're signing.
Can they understand that if they, you know, buy this house,
(20:59):
that they have to pay this amount of money or
something like. And if they can't do either or both
of those things, then a conservatorship might be just the
thing to kind of help them make it through life,
especially again if they have um substantial wealth or if
they are just totally unable to care for themselves. Yeah,
and you know the way this goes down ideally and
(21:22):
I think more typically than what we're seeing in Britney
Spears cases. You know, medical records are presented there, the
probate or family court is handling this, the conservaty is
either understands and goes along with it because they know
it's for their own good or um isn't you know,
it is clearly not capable, which is why they need
(21:43):
the conservatory to to begin with of making these decisions.
And again, it's just super rare for this kind of
case where someone is having something done seemingly against their will,
kind of from the kid go yeah, I mean, like,
for the most for the most part, if you're in
a conservatorship, like you might not even be conscious, you
might have no idea that you're under a conservatorship. Um,
(22:04):
you might not be able to work or hold down
a job or remember to feed yourself. You're certainly not
going on world tour and releasing four albums, two of
which go platinum, and then maintaining a Vegas residency and
generating a hundred thirty million dollars in income over you know,
ten thirteen years something like that. It just makes it's
(22:24):
just so bizarre. It's so bizarre. And I have to say, also,
one other thing, I don't want to give the impression
that I'm just like a like a hashtag free Brittany person.
Like I understand that those people have um just the
best intentions, and my hat is off to them. But
I also think it's very very wise to remember, like
we're seeing all this from the outside, most of the
court documents involved are sealed and so there's a lot
(22:47):
of like t leaf reading and trying to figure out
what's really going on here. And it's it's entirely possible
that that this conservatorship has kind of helped Brittany. Like
the people who defend who been involved and defend it, say,
you know, she had a couple of million dollars left
some of the worst people in the world surrounding her. Um,
(23:08):
her money was going fast, her brand was starting to go,
and now she's worth like sixty to eighty million dollars.
She's back on top. She doesn't have a bunch of
scummy people hanging around her UM. And then the scummy
people are like no, these people came in and wrestled
control of Brittany's own life and now they're in charge
of her and they're they're builking her for money. So
(23:28):
it's it's really impossible to tell who to trust at
this point in time. So I think it's it's wise
to to at least keep something of an open mind,
even if it seems totally on the surface like this,
this pop star is being held prisoner in public. You know, well,
when you need those TV's ready, you know, you get
hold on hold on. I don't know, you get run
(23:51):
in Pharaoh. That's right, Frank Sinatra Jr. That's right? Is no,
he's junior junior right? Oh well, I'm he supposedly no,
I mean he's supposedly what the Allan's son? But that's right.
I mean I'm not the first person. I mean, that's
it's a it's a big thing online, like come on,
(24:13):
that's that's Frank's kid. Sure, but who knows supposedly not?
I don't know. Okay, we're just hitting the celebrity beat
all over the place. Uh do you remember kids beat
on Nickelodeon? Ye see you next. That popped into my
head the other day out of nowhere, and I was like,
(24:34):
did I just make that up? That was a thing though,
h yeah, I I don't remember anything but that catchphrase.
That's same here here, nothing else. Maybe we had a
group hallucination. It's possible, like the Bear and Stain bears.
Uh oh yeah, that's right. What's that called? Uh yeah? Alright?
So uh in her case in California and this House
(24:57):
to Works article that we got a lot of this
from highlights this um it is different in every state
with with a lot of legalities like this, So it
will differ depending on where you are. But in California
they have something called the Judicial Council of California's Handbook
for Conservatories, where it does lay out about a dozen
rights of someone like Britney Spears, which one of which
(25:19):
is they can directly receive their salary. So supposedly she
like it's it's not like the checks getting written to
Jamie Spears and he doles it out. Supposedly, by law,
she is receiving her salary. Still, oh oh that's not
at all what I heard. Oh really, she has her
living expenses met and they total about four hundred and
twenty five thousand dollars a year um. So she has
(25:42):
everything she wants, but she doesn't pay for anything herself.
That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the check isn't
made out in her name. Oh no, no, no, no, absolutely,
you're right, you're right. But the whole, the whole, her
dad doling it out. That's yeah. Yeah. What I'm just
saying is is like the check doesn't come name, Yeah, no,
it's all it's all in her name. Still, the right
(26:05):
to receive calls and mail and see people. Uh, you
can change your will Um, legally, you can get married,
you can hire your own lawyer, which was has been
a big bone of contention with the Britney Spears case
because she had this court appointed lawyer for many, many
years until very recently when she was finally like, can
(26:25):
I at least hire my own person? And the whole
Free Brittany crew has basically been like that that lawyer
is chummy with her dad, like he's working for her
dad rather than her you know. Um, so yeah, it
might have been. That's why at the beginning I was saying,
like she might finally be getting out from under this
conservatorship because she has a new lawyer of her own choosing.
(26:46):
There's a new sheriff in town, there is, and everybody's
running for the hills. Uh. What we're seeing play out
now or another couple of things on the list the
request to either change conservators or in the conservatorship, they
are allowed to out, Um, they're allowed to control their
own allowance, but it doesn't you know that very clearly
(27:07):
doesn't mean they're allowed to establish their own allowance, yeah,
or what the amount is or anything. Yeah. Uh, their
medical decisions and business transactions are should be under their
control and uh was there one more UM. So basically,
anything you're allowed to do at the at the beginning
of it the conservatorship, you should be able to throw out. UM.
(27:30):
There were a couple of things in there that that
and that was I think California's rights, right, Yeah, so
this is a California case. She's under a California conservatorship,
so all of those should very much apply to her. UM.
But she has said recently that like her father won't
let her get married, he decides who she can date
or not date. And again I don't think that's that's legal,
(27:53):
but I think he can threaten like um uh um,
not just visitation like UM, restraining orders. He can take
out restraining orders in her name against whomever he deems
um like inappropriate, and I guess can demonstrate to the
court that this person might be a bad influence on
her UM and that that that's probably how he is
(28:15):
has been able to decide who she dates or doesn't
date because she wants to marry a dude right now,
she says, and have more kids. And the other big
the really truly shocking revelation that she she revealed recently
is that she has an I U d that her
father won't let her remove she can't have kids, so
her reproductive rights are being infringed upon under this conservatorship,
(28:37):
and that is a very big deal. Yeah. And again
this is the kind of stuff where there's there's two
two sides talking and we don't know the real truth
on the inside. But at the very least, like when
an accusation like that big is is levied, you have to,
as a I would think as the court, have to
look into that kind of thing. Yeah. And there there
(28:58):
have been court appointed in instigators before um, and one
of them I read concluded like she should probably not
be under this conservatorship anymore. It wasn't like you know,
they joined the Free Brittany crowd or anything like that,
but like that was their report and their recommendation. Um.
But it's like you're saying, you know, we're seeing this
from the outside. So like the people who who are
(29:21):
on the inside in this conservatorship point out, like you know,
she wasn't worth very much, um then and she's now,
so she's kind of thriving under this arrangement, which is
apparently a way that a conservators somebody could end up
in a conservatorship for the rest of the life, thriving
under the conservatorship, and then conversely, if you struggle under
(29:42):
the conservatorship and have a really hard time, that can
be used as evidence that you need to be under
the conservatorship as well. So you kind of get this
impression that it's like a if you're if you're like
a with it, person able to make your own decisions,
and you find yourself in a conservatorship, you probably feel
like you're just totally out of your mind and just
can't believe this is happening to it sounds nightmarish. If
(30:02):
if if it's like as bad as from what Brittany
is saying it is, you know, well yeah, and I'm
sure she's in a case where she's trying to establish
something a little more nuanced, like emotional well being, rather
than like someone can a judge can say, look at
all this money you've made since this has happened, and
you know it's there's a lot more to it than that, though,
it's to be a whole human well that's another thing
(30:24):
too though. So the original co conservator, along with Jamie Spears,
Brittany's father was a guy named Andrew Wallett and he
was court appointed. Terrible name for a conservator, terrible, like
he should have just been like, I can't be a
conservator because of my last name. But he was Andrew C. O. D.
And he was for many many many years actually, and
(30:46):
actually it was under under his conservatorship or co conservatorship
that she kind of like came back and started working
again and um started making money again. Uh, and I
guess kind of thrived at least as a business um.
And he was basically run out of the conservatorship on
a rail because he asked for a salary towards the
(31:07):
end of four hundred and twenty six thousand dollars a year,
which is a lot of money. The thing is, his
point was like, look, if you're a conservator, basically under
normal circumstances, you're just kind of keeping up with somebody's
quiet life, one one everyday person and their quiet life
and their little finances and making sure they're taken care of.
(31:29):
As as conservator of Britney Spears, the state, he was
like running basically a international business that had all these
fingers and all these pots. And he said, most people
who are in that position make millions of dollars a year.
I'm asking for four d so like that to me
was a real reminder, like, oh yeah, there's actually two
(31:50):
sides of this coin, Like this is an unusual situation
for anybody. Um, and it kind of makes sense in
that respect, although if you look at the normal amount
that it can would would charge for their time. Um,
he was asking for a lot. Actually, yeah, and that's
a good point as far as your obligation as conservator
(32:10):
you uh, And again put Britney Spears aside for a second,
and these ideal situations, they are genuinely taking care of
these people, meeting their daily needs and necessities, making sure
all their bills are paid and their checkbook is balanced,
and you know, they don't go in the whole financially. Um.
The big hooking point here, though, is is that if
(32:32):
you're a financial conservator, you're not supposed to be using
that person's money for your own benefit. Like you said,
you are allowed to take a salary, and it says
in this article somewhere between forty and a hundred dollars
per hour, which means Jamie Spears uh is taking a
hundred dollars per hour at forty hours a week. Because
(32:56):
he's getting sixteen thousand dollars a month and that that's
what it comes to, like the basically the top rate
at forty hours per week, which when you look at that,
I mean if that he, like you said, though, he
also gets a cut of her stuff, um to play
devil's advocate. He is taking a salary commisserate with what
a conservator historically can take. Yeah, so Andrew Walllett, if
(33:20):
you look at it from the from the perspective, well
he's a conservator and not actually like running the business,
then he'd yeah, he'd have to work more than eighty
hours a week, fifty weeks a year at a hundred
dollars an hour. But again his point was, this isn't
a normal conservatorship. This is running the Britney spears in
multinational enterprise for her benefit, you know. Yeah, and if
(33:42):
you're the conservatory, you also you know you're gonna at
some point probably have to answer to the court, especially
in some case like this. So you've gotta have all
your ducks in a row, you've got to keep receipts,
and you've got to have a paper trail to kind
of back up everything. You can't just waltz in there
and say like, trust me, everything's going fine. Um, supposedly
you're gonna have to have pretty robust records for kind
(34:04):
of every financial decision you're making on behalf of your
conservative So that's ideally, Um, now we reached the reality
and that's this is one good thing of Britney spears
um uh conservatorship and all the light she's shining on
conservatorship abuse right now is like this is an issue
in normal, like non celebrity society where people can get
(34:26):
preyed upon by basically a professional conservator um. And there's
a General Accounting Office report that basically said, the states
have no idea how many people, how many of its
citizens or residents are under conservatorship right now, how much
money is being held in conservatorship right now. They might
(34:47):
have a good idea in some cases, and other cases
they have no idea. And as part of the report,
the g a O basically made up UM identities in
like four different states around the country and applied for
conservatorship and they were granted in all four cases. Are
all four states conservatorship to to be to go out
(35:09):
and be a conservator to a stranger and take control
of some strangers finances as part of like as their career,
and the states didn't check their background, didn't run their
social Security numbers, didn't do a credit check, didn't do anything.
They just basically rubber stamped it. Like this person wants
to be a conservator. There you go. You're a state
licensed conservator now, who can go take control of the
(35:31):
finances of someone who's never even met you before? And like,
in that respect, this is ripe for abuse. This is
the kind of situation where a judge is morally obligated
to give as much attention to to each case as
needed to make sure hundred and ten percent sure that
(35:52):
the person under conservatorship is not being exploited, is not
being taken advantage of financially, is not being kept I
think they call it isolated UM, medicated and liquidated UM
and kept away from their family and their loved ones UM.
It can be a nightmare unless the court is overseeing
(36:13):
this properly, and apparently in all cases they don't, which
is just unconscionable, and judges who dropped the ball on
that should be run out of town right into jail themselves.
All right, let's take a break. Thanks, thanks for me,
and uh, we'll be back right after this to talk
(36:34):
about where how you can end these things and some
legislation that might could help as well right after this.
(37:02):
If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just
listen to Chuck Shon. Alright, so I mentioned before we
get into how you can terminate this. Uh, this sort
of dovetails with with your uh, with your great soapbox
moment right before the break. If I may say, uh,
(37:25):
there's legislation as of um, about an hour and a
half ago. I read this on New York Times. Wait
a minute, it was published an hour and a half.
Where you just read it an hour a half ago.
It was published an hour and a half ago. Wow,
that is late breaking for stuff. You should know. This
is super late breaking. Uh. Two members of the House
UH co sponsored. And you know when you see these
bills co sponsored on both sides of the aisles for
(37:47):
these kind of smaller bills, that's when you know that
government can work. Was it was it? Senator Lance Bass
and Senator Joey Fatone. That's good you uh. Coast answers. Rep.
Charlie Christ Democrat of Florida and Nancy Mace Republican from
South Carolina legislation that if they passed, it would create,
(38:09):
um a pathway for Britney Spears and other people to
replace their private guardian or conservator. So it basically um
it argues for more accountability. It argues UM that UM
that we need more data on this stuff. Like you
were saying, how like no one knows how much money
is tied up in this, No one knows how many
(38:31):
people are trying to get out of these There's just
like it's it's shockingly Uh. I don't want to just
say willie nilly because that's probably not fair, but understudied
at least, Yeah, under observed for sure. So uh, as
of now, in order to get out of a conservatorship,
(38:51):
you have to prove fraud or abuse that that is
has occurred to have that be replaced. And this bill
would kind of roll that back and say it doesn't
necessarily have to be abuse or fraud. It could just
be that they don't aren't comfortable with it, their emotional
well being is not being met or whatever, and just
(39:12):
to make it a little bit easier to free someone
up from these conservatorships. And so we'll see that was
there was one a few years ago in twenty nineteen
that didn't get beyond the House Judiciary Committee. But everyone's
kind of thinking with all this attention right now because
the Britney Spears case, that they might have a little
momentum to get something like that done. Oh yeah, big time.
(39:32):
Like there's called the Free Act. By the way, Uh,
they appreciate the acronyms freedom now freedom and Right to
Emancipate from Exploitation Act. Okay, all right, I I can
respect like bending over backwards a little bit to make
that work. That was all right, okay, I think Chuck. Also,
one of the reasons why they um, they have aired
(39:54):
to this point on the side of making it more
difficult to remove a conservatore is because they've kind of, um,
there's like a this maybe a suspicion that you know,
you could have a fight or a falling out or
something like that over something totally unrelated to the conservatorship,
and you know, the person could be Now, the person
(40:15):
could be like, that's it, you're not my conservatory more,
I want you out of my life or whatever. And
the person might be great as their conservator um, and
it might be a really good conservatorship, but it just
you know, there was that that moment or that following out,
So in that sense it should be made difficult. But
then on the other hand, it's like, is that really
the way we should be airing. Should we be airing toward,
(40:37):
you know, away from the rights and the desires of
the person who's whose life and responsibilities for their life
has been taken away from them, Like, shouldn't that shouldn't
they at least have the right to choose who's calling
the shots for them, who's making those decisions for them.
And I think ultimately I kind of leaned towards the
the rights of the individual. Yeah, I mean, it also
(41:00):
makes you wonder about, you know, if they're let's say
there's no kids involved and it's a case of, um,
someone of using drugs or something like. It is an
interesting slippery slope to think about whether an adult has
a right to throw their life away and and make
bad decisions, or whether or not it should be legal
for someone to be able to step in and save somebody.
(41:24):
It's like, that's just really I don't even know how
I feel about. It's just an interesting thought experiment. I
came across something called the right to risk, where basically
it's exactly what they just said, like everybody has the
right to just blow it completely, including a fortune, including fame,
including um, you know, alienating loved ones, doing whatever you
(41:44):
want to ruin your own life, that you have that
that right. But I think the law recognizes that there
are some some mental states that a person can can
enter to where they wouldn't otherwise want to do those things.
And I think that's what the people under who are
running Brittany's conservatorship are saying that, like Brittany isn't capable
(42:10):
of keeping people who would unduly influence her to to
throw her life away at bay. She can't keep those
people at bay. She doesn't understand the documents as she's signing,
and then there's whispers and or like hushed rumors of
like no, the real reason she'll probably be in a
(42:31):
permanent conservatorship is because there's some diagnosed mental illness that
is just sealed because it's a medical record. Um, and
that that's kind of like what gets leaked out on
the conservatorship side. So UM, I don't know. I think
having like uh an attorney that is of her choosing
(42:51):
who's sharp that is working for her and her alone
getting into this and really finding out what's what and
going into court. Um, I think that that would be Uh,
that's a I think that will be a really I'm
interested to see what the outcome of that is. I
don't see how that couldn't be a good step at
least to have more investigation done by someone of her choosing. Yeah,
(43:13):
because for years, apparently her big problem was not with
being under conservatorship. It was her dad being the conservator
and so he was co conservators with a couple of people,
and she apparently even was fine with one of them
for a little while, but then um, they resigned because
she said she wasn't fine with them any longer. And
then now it's just back to her dad being in
(43:34):
total soul control. So I wonder if, like, if her
dad is forced out and it's just strictly like lawyers
and fiduciaries who are in charge of her conservatorship, if
she would be like, no, this is fine, I'm fine
with this. I wonder, Uh, it's gonna be interesting to
see what happens with that and this legislation as they
kind of go hand in hand. Absolutely, do you got
(43:57):
anything else. I got nothing else. I do want to
shout out my pal Babs Gray Barbera Gray and Tess
Barker are two comedians in l A. And they were
in that documentary and have Champion in Britney's case for
a while. And they have a new podcast out and
it's called They had one called Britney's Graham Brittany's Instagram
the podcast but down. They have a new one called
(44:19):
Toxic Colon. And boy, if we get our new uh
Colan barbershop quartet interned there, that'd be great. The Britney
Spears story, so that's getting a lot of its interest
right now. Cool. Yeah, they're all over the place right now,
so big ups, big ups. Uh. If you want to
know more about Conservatorships and Brittney Spears and Lance Bass,
(44:40):
well you can just start searching the internet and jump
down that rabbit hole see what happens. And since I
said that, it's time, of course for a listener mail,
I'm gonna call this cool job that I've never heard of.
This is from one of our Irish friends. Oh yeah,
I love this one. Hey, guys. First things first, thanks
for a really great podcast. I've been listening every day
(45:01):
since my first day as a delivery driver five years
ago in Dublin, Ireland. It's been the week driving all
over the country and you've been my companions. Uh. Last
week I came across the episode Jobs from a Bygone Era,
a classic, and I wanted to share with you a
job my great grandfather did that definitely applies. He worked
in Dublin City as a knocker upper and I was like,
(45:22):
wait what. A knocker upper was a job that existed
at a time after the Industrial Revolution, but before alarm
clocks were widely available to the poorest that filled the
factories with workers for a tiny weekly fee. A knocker
upper was employed to knock on doors or tap on windows.
It's like a wake up call in a hotel. Basically,
(45:45):
they usually used to poll or a long stick or
bamboo to tap on the bedroom windows. There's great picks
online of a famous lady in London using a pea shooter. Uh.
My great grandfather though it was an even rarer breed
as he was known as a knocker uppers knocker upper.
He was employed by the other knocker ruppers to wake
(46:05):
them up wow, so they could go and wake up
the customers all over the city. Eventually they were all
put out of business when the country went electric. People
learn clocks hit the market, but they were snapshot in
time and provided much needed service. I wanted to share
this little bit of social history with you guys after
everything you've given me. Look forward to a live show
in Ireland sometime. Uh, Mike, we'd love to come back
(46:27):
to Ireland. We did did that show and that was
fun Dublin and it was one of the best. Yeah. Yeah,
that's that's a pretty great email, Mike, thank you for that.
Um Hey, I have a little anecdote about knocked up,
about knocked up. Yeah, so when Yumi was little, she
thought knocked up meant you were in trouble, like you
were grounded. Yeah, and um it led to at least
(46:49):
one case of hilarity with her dad asking where her
friend was and you me, so she's knocked up. She
came up dead. It's like, what can't come out for
a nine months? Is like, yeah, this is like nine
or ten years old, I think. So. Thanks Mike, thanks
little you me uh, and thank you guys for listening.
(47:11):
And if you want to get in touch with us,
like Mike did, you can send us an email to
stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should
Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
my heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Should Know News
Hosts And Creators
Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
Show Links
AboutOrder Our BookStoreSYSK ArmyRSSPopular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.