Guardian Angels: Behind the Red Beret

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My
Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck prying over there,
there's Jerry over there, and this is stuff you know
all got her red berets on. We're trained up. Ye're

(00:23):
ready to kick some New York City subway. But I
got my nun chucks quick. You probably had those when
you're kids. No, I never did, just throwing stars. I
had a a mom who cared about me. Okay, who
allows you to have throwing stars? Throwing stars you can sneak.
I thought you had throwing stars. Now Tommy Roper had
throwing he just trained me on. Actually, oh I got you.

(00:45):
I didn't either, But you could hide a throwing star
in your bedroom. It's hard to hide those nunchucks unless
you do it under mattress and you know it's there.
That's right already. Yeah, you're pretty proud of yourself for
that one. I was, and then you got no last
I thought you might like it. It was good. Um.
So obviously, since we're talking nun chucks and Tommy Roper,

(01:05):
we're doing an episode Chuck on the Guardian Angels, and
let me tell you from experience, you probably ran into
this as well. But researching Guardian Angels on the internet
brings up a lot of crackpot stuff. Yeah, it's very
tough to find this stuff I was looking for, but
I finally did. I hacked through it and I got

(01:26):
to the actual Guardian Angels stuff. Yeah, and uh, we
have a special guest at the end of this episode.
We were going to announce that right Well, you you
put in the title, didn't you. Yeah, but I just
want if people don't read the full title, if it
doesn't display on the your pod player of choice. Our
old friend John Hodgeman is here in the office today. Yeah,

(01:48):
like right now, he's waiting. He's in Jerry's office right now.
Is that where you put him? Yeah, we put him
in Jerry's office so you could have some alone time.
His suitcases right there. I think it'd be kind of
hilarious for us to go through it on the air.
It is. I have that exact suitcase. Oh it's nice.
Former sponsor of the show. Oh yeah, we didn't get suitcases.
So I got one not from the show, did you.
I got one for under the World sponsorship you did.

(02:11):
I'm so mad if they real cash money, did you
I got one for free? It's pink. You got the
pink one? All right, we won't mention the name brand. Okay,
you have to go listen to Into the World to
hear that, or they have to advertise again. Yeah. I'm
so mad because I even asked. I was like, hey,
can't believe can I get one of these bags? And
they're like, no, they're not going to send him to
everyone because it's too expensive. Peloton, send us a Peloton,

(02:34):
a Peloton. We have Pelotons thousands of dollars I know,
and they advertise for like two minutes. Thanks Peloton. Oh Man.
So anyway, John Hodgman is here in Jerry's office waiting
on us to finish recording about the Guardian Angels because
he's a new book coming out called Medallion Status. Yeah.
I just put that together. That's really coincidental that Hodgman

(02:55):
showed up to be on the show right before his
new book comes out. Medallion Status True Story is from
Secret Rooms that you can pre order now. Have you
read it? I didn't get a chance to. Did you
really read it? I really read it. That's because we
just got him like a few days ago. It's a
good read. It's it's fun to read. It kind of
sucks you in, it's great, can't wait. It's a good read.
So anyway, John will be here and he will talk

(03:16):
incessantly about medallion status. So we'll just save that. Yeah,
we'll let it just kind of peter out at the
jerial like face, and that's how the episode will end.
I bet he'll have something to say about the Guardian
Angels too, because John lives in New York City. Uh.
And I noticed in this article that it was I
guess assumed that everyone knew what it was because it
was never even really described what the Guardian Angels is into,

(03:38):
like the fourth page. Right, That's what I want to say, Like,
there are probably a significant number of people who think
we're going to talk about angels looking over your shoulder. No,
we are talking about in New York City and now
a hundred and thirty other cities and about thirteen countries.
Yeah it's okay, Yeah, sure. There there is a group
of U. There are a group of citizen anti crime
activists some would call the Vigilantes that formed a nonprofit

(04:03):
under the leadership of Curtis how do you pronounce that? Slewa?
In February nine. And if you grew up in the
eighties in the seventies, you saw a lot of Guardian Angels,
and this dude in particular, on every TV show you
could imagine, every every non fictional scripted TV show. They

(04:23):
were maybe like nine tenths is famous as Mr T
at his peak. They were that famous, and you get
the feeling that he loved it. Oh yea being famous. Well,
let me tell you about this guy, because this is
one really big um accusation that's leveled against the Guardian
Angels that they were just in it for the PR

(04:44):
and they definitely did know how to get PR. And
Curtis Leewa was a PR magnet from his from his
birth basically it sounds like it. Age six, he makes
his first public appearance on Romper Room. Remember Romper Room.
So here's a a guest on Romper Room. Uh. Years later,
he was a newsboy who got Newsboy of the Year

(05:07):
because on his route he saved six people from a
burning building and ended up getting to shake Richard Nixon's
hand as a result. Okay, it keeps, it keeps going.
As a younger kid than that. I think he collected
single handedly five and a half tons of recyclable paper
to be recycled years before anybody even knew what the

(05:29):
word recycling meant. He organized trash pickups around the place
around New York. I should say he was a legit,
real deal um pr machine who would then also follow
through and make like an actual impact on the world,
like a real self starter even as a kid. Yes,
self starter, also big time self promoter, and that is

(05:51):
a real big part of the Guardian Angels, so much
so that, yes, it is a very widespread accusation that's
level against him, But most people who lived in New
York in the seventies and eighties would say, so what
you know, these guys, what you're doing actually is worth
all that publicity, So leave them alone. So let's talk
about crime. Because I have a lot of feelings about

(06:14):
this whole organization too. I was flip flopping all over
the place. Really Yeah, because when you grow up as
a kid and you don't know much about him, you're like, oh, yeah, man,
put on those brats, get on that subway and take
it into your own hands. You get to be a
little older person you're like, no, no, no, don't do
that at all. All right, let's stay out of the
cops way. Yeah, so here's the deal. In the seventies crime,

(06:36):
we talked about this, I feel like on something else.
I no, no, that was on a different podcast. We
talked about it. We talked about Julian and cleaning up
New York. Yeah, but I was thinking about a movie
crush episode on Escape from New York, which sort of
that movie fed into this, uh hysteria about crime. So
did Death Wish? Death Wish two? Yes, Death Wish three,

(07:00):
Death Wish four, definitely, Death Wish five? Have you ever
seen Death Wish three? I think, Oh, I think I
only saw the first one. I went on a little
kick not too long ago where I watched all of
them really and not the remake. Obviously the the remake too.
I was on that big of a kid he saw
Brucellis was it terrible? As it was really bad. It
was like Eli Roth, you know, of course he's going

(07:22):
to make this astoundingly nuts, And he didn't. He made
a real straight for it, like I think he was.
He was saying like, well, this is going to be
my entree into main stream Why was this so bad?
Like how do you mess up? It wasn't It wasn't bad.
Bad's not the right word for it. It was uh
it was thin. Fin's a good word. Like it really
could have been much bulkier and bigger and and just better,

(07:45):
and it just it just wasn't there. It wasn't enough
to it. And Bronson, I mean, like he was like
a walking cardboard stand up in a lot of ways,
especially with his acting and his stuff was more. There
was more to it. And I think it was because
they went so far beyond the line in those movies,
like attacks on women and like it's just incredible like

(08:08):
violence and and just like the Death Wish moves are
really violent, like these were a main there were mainstream
films that came out. But Death Wish three, I think,
is it just is totally off the rails. The first
two are at least trying to maintain some sort of
stuff about a man and his family being attacked and
like right and he fights back, exploring real tops. That

(08:30):
definitely ties into this mentality of the Guardian Angels. Death
Wish three also does in the way that it describes
this New York where it's just chaos there's no law,
there's no order, no one's in control. People are shooting
rocket launchers at each other like gangs, are just doing
whatever they want. And if you're an honest citizen, you

(08:51):
have to go murder other people or else you're going
to be murdered yourself. Well that was how they got
you to buy into Escape from New York? Was it
in the year nineteen nine seven, which is hysterical to
think about. Now, crime got so bad that they shut
New York down and just made it into a prison.
They build a wall around Manhattan Island. Yeah, and it
was kind of a fun idea. Yeah, it's a great premise, Yeah,

(09:13):
I thought. So. Anyway, let's talk about real crime and
how bad really was it in major metropolitan areas in
the United States. Uh, And here's some stats for you,
and the Grabster put this together for us, and I
think some of the stuff is funny. That Ed said
more than sixteen hundred homicides in New York and seventies
six more than eight hundred and eighty one um And

(09:37):
he said homicide rates vary between nineteen and murders per
one hundred thousand residents in the seventies and eighties, which
is I can't make heads their tails of that. It's
real numbers I need. Well, those are murders, then you've
got mugging's obviously rape, burglary, vandalism, stuff like that. But
I did some figuring. They're on pace in New York

(09:59):
City the year for two hundred and seventy two murders.
That's actually kind of high. There were eighteen hundred in nine,
which is, uh, five murders a day. But then you
think about like, yeah, but you know, New York's a
huge city. There's five boroughs. That's like one murder per
borough per day. That's to be expected. Like the idea

(10:24):
that like you can't walk around without being killed is preposterous.
You're probably the likelihood is that you're never going to
be even in the vicinity of a murder, much less
the victim of one with that kind of population. Um,
but there were in nineteen seventy eight, there were nine
murders on the subway in nineteen seventy eight period on

(10:44):
the subway alone, And in nineteen seventy nine there were
two hundred and fifty felonies a week on the New
York City subway. Right, So, so it's a real concern
to ride the subway in the nineteen seventies in New
York like a legit fear, it really was, right, So
there was a lot to violence. In addition to violence,
In addition to violent crime and Robbie robbery and muggings

(11:06):
and rapes and all like just violence, right, there was
also this sense of lawlessness on the subways in particular,
where there's graffiti everywhere and like you could get beat up,
you could have somebody like shake you down just riding
on the subway. They were really they just seemed dangerous too.
In addition to actually being kind of dangerous, especially compared
to today, they seemed dangerous. So people were freaked out

(11:29):
riding on two fifty colonies a week on the subways
a lot, okay. And then on top of that, in
the seventies, so in New York apparently came just within
a few hours of going bankrupt and they faced some
real severe budget cuts, one of which was the transit police.
They laid off fourteen hundred of their thirty six hundred

(11:53):
cops and they cut off patrols from seven pm to
I think five am. So the criminals were like, oh,
just lollas down there, and it really was. Yeah. And
so it was in this context that Curtis slee wah
Um basically said, hey, you know what, somebody should do
something about this. The cops aren't doing anything, the city
is not doing anything. Somebody needs to do something because

(12:16):
people are getting robbed and mugged in at the very least,
people are afraid to drive the subway, and we should
do something. Yeah, he said, I'm a world champion recycler. Yeah,
I've met Richard Nixon. Listen to me. So should we
take a break already? I think we just worked ourselves
up in the frothy break. I gotta calm down. Let's
take a break and we'll talk a little bit about

(12:36):
Sleeve was background right after this. Definite shouldn't know large
skis watch sky should know it was all right. Curtis Leewa,

(13:02):
founder of the Guardian Angels, was born in ninety four
in Brooklyn, New York. He grew up there. Webster defines
Curtis Leewaw he uh depending on who you ask, and
there are there are a lot of like different stories
about Sleewah. Even within his own story. He has sort
of varied things over time he either dropped out of
high school or was expelled for student activism. And he

(13:22):
has a long life of activists. Uh, of activism. Well
that's what I was talking for sure. So like he
never still is today. He never lost that, which is great. Um,
And his dad said, go get a job, you punk.
He went to McDonald's and the Bronx got a job there,
and he basically said this McDonald's was nuts. And I

(13:47):
don't know if you've ever been to McDonald's late night
in New York City, Like, now, it's nuts. Now I
don't You're not getting murdered, but it is crazy town
and McDonald's at two in the morning, and in the
safest parts of New York City, Yeah, like Midtown Manhattan. Yep. Yeah,
it's kind of fun to go and witness actually, yeah,
because it's like it's never normal. No, No, it's definitely not.

(14:08):
And it's also it's not really dangerous these days. No
it's not. But it's never normal. And I've only been
done this a few times, but there's always been an
incident or something going on. I think he just came
up with New York's new tourist Campa. Never normal, never normal.
So he describes basically this uh working there as a

(14:30):
nightly battle against gangs. And he said that the people
that work there kept like a nun chuck's back in
the back in the kitchen, like a like stash next
to the fryar. Yeah, and if something happened, uh, which
things always did, we were ready, right. So apparently one
night that actually came in handy when some gang came

(14:54):
in and they were hassling the customers. Slee was was
the night manager, so it's up to him to do something.
And he's the kind of guy who feels like you
should do something about that, you know, especially if you
feel like the cops aren't going to do anything, which
is an ongoing theme of slee Waws kind of um rhetoric.
Yes perfect um. So he jumps over the counter and

(15:15):
proceeds to get beaten up by this gang well for
a while. Sure, his coworkers, who had these weapons stashed
around the friar, grab their weapons and jumped in and
beat the gang off. And apparently this experience, according to
Slee Waw, inspired him to say, let's make this particular
McDonald's a safe place haven from crime by defending it

(15:40):
ourselves and putting the word out that if you come
here and try to make trouble, we're gonna beat you
up with our friar weapons. Yeah, and it's here that
we should really really emphasize that a lot of this
is his from his own words, and I'm certainly not
calling the man a liar, but he he is definitely
a pr guy and has a bit of P. T.
Barnum to him a little, So these stories should be

(16:02):
taking a little bit with a grain of salt, I think. Yeah.
Um one big thing that differentiates him in my mind
from P. T. Barnum is number one, no singing. Number
two he Um did not view people as suckers or
chumps to be taken advantage of. As a matter of fact,
from everything that I've seen about this guy, say what
you want about is kind of bravado and grandiosity and

(16:25):
potential lawlessness. He seems to have been Um very much
focused on inspiring people to better themselves in their community.
Like that does seem to be like one of his
legitimate goals. Yeah, not only making his community safer, but
the Guardian angels themselves as well. See, some of these
might have been petty criminals that he's trying to reform.

(16:46):
So he's done a lot of great things, right, So
uh he said, all right, we got this McDonald's lockdown.
Everyone is coming in here and they can eat their
um happy meals. This might have been pretty happy meal, Leavin. Yeah,
I was right around that time. It would have been
during the time when they were in those awesome phone
containers that remember those Oh my god, they just make

(17:08):
my brain following my ear with nostalgia. Yeah, remember the
mcdealt hot side hot, cool side cool, extra waste of foam.
Oh yeah, no, and the phone containers who were in atrocity.
But they were beautiful, I know what you mean. They
had a shimmer equality to them, and the colors that
they chose. Everything was so so wonderfully toxic. So uh,

(17:29):
he said, let's extend this out because it's working so well.
And McDonald's, let's take it to the streets. Let's take
it to the Mugger's Express, the four train that he
had to write to work with. That was particularly dangerous,
right because again, remember there's no cops at night on
the subway line, no cops, And so the McDonald's nightshift
became known as the Magnificent thirteen, and he said, let's

(17:54):
take it to the streets and let's start recruiting people
to do this for real. But you know what, we
need the us. He's a pr guy, very smart to
do this. He's like, we need a uniform like the
magniccent thirteen. We're all in our McDonald's uniforms, which was like,
can you guys not do that? Can you can you
not bring nunchucks to work? That's sort of in the brochure.

(18:16):
And so he developed the iconic red beret, red shiny
red jacket. Yeah, what's that called? Satin? Like a satin jacket? Yeah,
and uh, a white T shirt with their logo which
is the eye peering out from the winged pyramid. I
could not find why he came up with that design.

(18:39):
I bet he hand drew it. Yeah. So, um, they
went from this Magnificent thirteen to the Guardian Angels around
that time, and they started patrolling the subways. Um. And
we'll talk about some of their tactics and methods in
a little bit, but one of the things that first
struck Sleewa was that he found that they were not

(19:01):
welcomed by the police. The police in the city didn't
say this is great. We need a little help, and
these people are stepping up to help, you know, keep
their community safer and fight crime. The city did quite
the opposite. They said, these guys are nuts. Don't listen
to them. They need to stop what they're doing, and
we're gonna harass them, even though legally speaking, everything they

(19:23):
were doing was within their rights. That's right. And one
of the reasons the city wasn't down to begin with
was there there was a bit of a history here.
There was a group in nine and the Bronx called
the Black Spades, and they had the goal of fighting
racism and keeping the neighborhood safe, sort of sort of
like Sleewaw and uh. They eventually morphed into a criminal gang.

(19:47):
And the cops in the city saw this happen. They're like, look,
the Black Spades were great until they weren't. Like, you
guys are essentially gang to right, That's what they said.
This is the same thing. This is the same things
gonna happen. This is gonna be some vigilante gang that
turns into an extortion gang and they're gonna be violent.
They're gonna start selling drugs and it's gonna be a problem.

(20:08):
I also read as far as the Black Spades are
concerned Africa, Bombada was a Black Spade member, yep. And
they credit the Black Spades and some other groups for
creating hip hop culture, like those block parties they all
came out of, like these groups getting together and hanging out.
Is that cool? Can you dig it? Yes? I can?

(20:33):
Did you not know my right? Reference? That was from
the Warriors? Right? Okay, gotcha? But wasn't that the respect?
Did you not see the extended director's stuff? So here's
some of the rules that he developed early on. And
this is all Curtis Leewise jam like. He set this
thing up, He developed all the rules, ran it like

(20:56):
a you know, with a tight fist, brought all the
members on, brought him and they were besides their uniforms
that he would hand you upon joining up. I guess,
I guess that was a fun conversation. Oh what size
are you? What size satin jacket do you wear? Exactly?
Do you like to button it all the way up?
So you have to you have to be at least

(21:16):
sixteen not a serious criminal record, because, like we said,
he kind of liked taking some of these kids that,
like you know, maybe a shoplifter or a pocket picker
and reforming them, giving him a second chance to prove themselves.
And that was a big thing that he did. That
that the Guardian Angels did. This organization was it said, hey,

(21:37):
you live in an area where you can go sell drugs,
you can go rob people, all your friends are doing it,
or you can come over here and actually combat that
make your community a safer place to live, get rid
of that stuff. And right, yeah, and you get the
free satin jacket. But they they they some people were
given an option in this neighborhood and some people are

(21:58):
in these neighborhoods, and some people took that and became
Guardian Angels and actually like took a different path in
life because of this guy, a night manager from a
Bronx McDonald like gave these people who joined this option
would like to to change their lives. That's that's really
respectable and commendable. It is. You could be anyone. You

(22:21):
could be male or female, you could be any religion,
you could be any race, any sexual orientation. Yeah, but
we should, you know, we should touch on a little
bit the racial stuff. Um, it's complicated because he if
you see some interviews, it seems like he's using sort
of blatantly racist language. He would probably say that he's
just a realist and he's just talking real yeah, from

(22:43):
the streets from old Brooklyn. Oh yeah, not New Brooklyn,
Old Brooklyn. Yeah, he's like, yeah, you know, I go
to Warby Parka all those places. Right, you will go
to restoration Hardware, you know, check it out. It's pretty good.
So uh, it's a complicated thing the way he talks
and some of these older interviews, right, but if you
go to where the rubber meets the road, he was

(23:05):
not only recruiting like black Latino or I should say
Latin x um men, women, whoever, who whoever wanted to
be a Guardian Angel and follow the rules and did
you know guardian angel stuff could join. And these are
the people he hung he hung out with, spend his
time with. It wasn't like he was in some ivory

(23:26):
tower telling everybody what to do and enjoying Boston around
these other people. These are people he hung out with.
He made lieutenants out of in chapter, heads out of it,
leaders out of so um. Like you said, it's complicated,
but he proved himself to be fairly above racial politics
as far as his actual practices go. That's right. If

(23:47):
you hit the streets on patrol, Um, they would go
out together, usually ten people, but you were never out
there alone. No. Well that was the thing because they
weren't allowed to carry weapons. So like had it just
been one of them patrolling, they would vatinely been beaten
and put in the hospital. Yeah, so you're not only
are they not allowed to wear weapons, but they pat
each other down before they go out on patrol to

(24:08):
make sure none of them have weapons themselves. And uh
Sleiwa would basically act as the dispatcher. He would sit
around and listen to the scanner, the police scanner, or
he would get telephone calls from a pay phone I
guess from another angel saying something's going down, and he
would send people out on these patrols, like to specifically

(24:31):
go to a crime that had been committed to try
and help, or or just go on patrol like the
subway line super get on the four train and walk
up and down those cars, or go to this neighborhood
and patrol this block. So this is how their patrols
would work. On the subway in particular, be eight, ten,
twelve of them, and they would all show up together.
Each one would get into a car, so there'd be

(24:52):
a Guardian Angel standing at attention. Yeah, quiet, silent, looking
very stern and serious, um, not messing aroun out and
just projecting that that thing. And that's what Sleewa said
is the basis, like the Guardian Angels show up and
they're in control of the situation. So they're reassuring the
people who are worried, and they're showing the criminals like,
don't try anything because there's ten of us in one

(25:14):
of you or even two of you, right, And then
every stop, every all the Guardian Angels would lean out
and give some sort of hand signal that the coast
was clear. If somebody didn't lean out of their car,
all the other angels would converge on that car and
help out was in trouble. And that's how they patrolled
the subways, and that's how they still do. Actually, so
imagine this, my friend, I had this thought while I

(25:37):
was researching the stuff. Imagine this exact same scenario, but
they're wearing tights and capes and masks, right, and like,
imagine how quickly they would be laughed at and ridiculed
and just laughed off the streets. And they're a guy
in Mexico City who is doing that? Oh no, there's
a documentary. There are quite a few people that do this,

(25:59):
And there's a doctor amentary that follows these real life
quote unquote superheroes that are trained up and can do
martial arts, but they like wear a cape in a mask,
and it's just it's funny to think about the perception
they could do the exact same thing, and if they're
wearing a Batman mask, it's likely what are you doing? Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
I wonder if any funny. I wonder if anyone who

(26:21):
used to be a caped crusader is now just a
regular crusader, because that's more legitimate. Maybe maybe so. Uh,
here's the thing, Um, they're not just standing there at
attention to uh intimidate criminals to make sure things are safe.
They don't just call in to the police when something happens.
They get involved. We talked about martial arts. They are

(26:43):
trained up two engage people, physically encouraged to do so. Uh.
And and if you listen to our July episode on
a citizen's arrest to make and perform a citizen's arrest,
which I was trying to think back at in go
back and listen to it, but I was trying to
think back of what our overall message wasn't correct me

(27:04):
if I'm wrong, but don't do it. Do not do it.
You're gonna get yourself in trouble. These guys routinely do that. Yeah,
but I think we were just saying, like, hey, if
you're just an average Joe or Jane on the street,
don't do that. But if you're if you're trained to
do so, like a guardian angel, still don't do it.
But even still they say like they're not afforded any

(27:26):
special rights or privileges. They're just citizens following the letter
of the law. But they they don't just call the
cops and say somebody's getting jacked right now, or um,
you know, like you said, just stand there. Certainly they
go beat somebody up. Well, no, they're trained to use
minimal force, so that can still include beating somebody out.
They're they're trained to restrain somebody and use force. But

(27:50):
that's the difference is they're not out there just like
delivering a beat down because for retribution. Okay, so originally
from what I read, that is actually how how this
whole thing started. The people down that um uh sleep
Curtis Leewa and his friend Don Chin, who was a
big dude who also worked at the McDonald's with them.

(28:11):
They started out, um with Slee Wah writing the subway,
all dressed up with jewelry and everything. They would he
was a plant, right, and then um, somebody would come
over and try to rob him, and Chin would come
out of nowhere and just beat him up. That's a trapman,
it is like. As a matter of fact, there was
a quote from the police commissioner at the time I
read this really awesome New Yorker article from that was
written by Nicholas Pelleggie, who wrote Wise Guy, which was

(28:35):
the foundation of Goodfellas, one of the greatest movies of
all time. He's definitely the greatest gangster movie of all time.
Get out of here with that Godfather crap. Okay, give
me Goodfellas. Every day? How many people's heads has popped
right off of their bodies. They're both great, and my
head is not popped that I know, yours isn't. But
somebody out there just like just broke through their desk. Anyway,

(28:59):
he wrote this article and in it one of the
police commissioners is like, this is this is awfully close
to entrapment, dangerously close as a matter of fact, what
what they were describing. So they stopped doing that, and
I guess started doing what you were saying, which was
following the letter law and using minimal force and not
entrapping people. Yeah, I mean that's the the idea. Into
his credit, he is changed his methods and what he's

(29:23):
trained people to do. Over the years. He's tried to
you know, he's tried to do the right thing. It
seems like sure. So a lot of people say to like,
this guy got rich off this thing. I don't think
that's the case. I think he leads a pretty modest
existence on the Upper West Side. Still, he's a little
bit rough natorish in that respect. Yeah, and they're nonprofit.
The members are volunteers. I don't see how he would

(29:45):
make money unless he's just like selling merch or something. Yeah,
there was somebody gave him some money to do a
like basically for his life story, to make a movie
about it. So he got like ten grade or something
back in the set. Apparently he used some of the
money to try to sue the people because the movie
was so bad that Yeah, so what movie is that?
I don't remember. I saw it somewhere, but it pretty

(30:08):
easy to find. But he, um was it? Airwolf was
a wolf. There's this guy making sweet love to the
Airwolf helicopter in the backgrounds. It's like that hanged man
of Oz. You have to like really look forward. Why
don't you see it? You can't see it anyway? Um
he But yeah, from what I understand, he made no
money off of it whatsoever. But some people say he

(30:30):
didn't care about money, cares about prestige. Yeah, And a
lot of people say, ah, he's just a blow hard,
blah blah, this and that. But when you talk to
these and read interviews with these, uh, because I've talked
to him, these old former angels, they all talk about
this family and the fact that he did pull them
off the streets. Not all. There are some old former
that are big time critics of him and his Yeah, yeah,

(30:52):
I didn't mean that, but a lot of people have
said that, Like I was going nowhere, he saved me,
gave me a sense of purpose, taught me how to
do the right thing in life. And also a lot
of New Yorkers, just everyday New Yorkers were very supportive
of the Guardian Angels and what they were doing. I
would have felt better on it that number four subway train. Yeah,
a lot of them didn't. So that that New Yorker

(31:14):
article by Nicholas Pledgie was a hit job. Um, it
was just meant to kind of make them look bad
and make Ed Cotch, who, as we'll see, was not
very happy with the Angels because he was married at
the time, Um, make a Cottius point look more reasonable.
But um, if you read the following edition, every single
one of the letters written in response to that article

(31:36):
supported the Guardian Angels and basically called out the New
Yorker for for just kind of convoluting things, for being
the New Yorker, for basically being the New Yorker being
pro catch. Well, since you brought him up, he very
much dismissed them. I called them vigilantes. The police Union,
the Patrolman's Benevolent Association did yeah right, yeah, well, he

(31:59):
said him. Some people get lost sometimes. I started talking
like in New York for all all of a suh,
the Transit police Union, they all came out against the
Guardian Angels, saying don't do this. Uh. Phil Caruso of
the Policeman's Benevolent Association said Mr Sliwa is a publicity

(32:22):
seeker and he does a good job of it. When
you start putting authority in an undisciplined group, it's not
only vigilantium. Vigilantism. It reeks of gestapo is um. He
not catch dictates who will be an angel and where
they will work. It's preposterous. We said that last parted Cotch. No, no, no,

(32:42):
that was Phil Caruso. Was he talking about Coch? He's
talking about Sliwa. But it just hit me today. No
one says preposterous anywhere. I want to bring that back. Okay,
it's a great word. You may just have, I hope.
So preposterous. But a lot of people loved him. Governor Cuomo,
whether or not it was a political thing or not,
kind of came out in supported them here and there.

(33:03):
So he had a good quote in that New Yorker
article which just go read it. What he basically said.
You know, if these were the children, the sons and
daughters of white doctors from Long Neck, we'd be giving
them medals instead. We're just leveling all these accusations of
vigilanism against him and like totally missing the point that
these guys are taking care of their community and taking

(33:25):
up the slack where the cops are leaving off, and
frankly the city's leaving off because they fired so many
cops um that. You know, it's it seems a little
a little racist to me. He didn't put it that
last part in that words, but it was definitely in there.
And this is that this guy is saying that so well,
it seems it seems a legitimate quote. If he was
taking a shot at ECI disguised it well. So they

(33:48):
are also supposedly, um, the rank and file cops um
like the Guardian Angels. I'm sure it just all depends.
It's hard to make a sweeping statement like that, but
from what I read, the rank and file were a
little more like, yeah, these guys are like trying to
restore some sanity to New York. And it was the
brass that couldn't really come out and or didn't come

(34:10):
out and say that they supported them. Because this is
why the presence, the very presence of the Guardian Angels.
They weren't doing their job underlying the problem that New
York had. New York couldn't wash it over because the
Angels were there, which was another big role that they played,
kind of this meta role to kind of agitate the
city to do more, educate, agitate the police force to

(34:33):
do more, in addition to providing, you know, a feeling
of comfort to people who were riding the subway. And
it didn't help that Slee while would go on TV
shows and champion death Wish and taxi Driver as inspirations
for starting this out. Taxi driver more so, at least
in death Wish, this guy was like, you know, getting

(34:55):
back at people that assaulted his wife and daughter. Yea,
and taxi driver. He just a sociopath, buddy. I mean
it all worked out for the best in the end,
that's right. So Um. As a result of all of this,
Leewah has long Um accused the cops of harassing him
in multiple ways. He said he was arrested seventies six

(35:16):
times while carrying out Guardian Angels stuff. Um he said
that he was kidnapped not once, but twice by two
different police forces, one in New York, one in d
c Um in the New York one I don't think
he alleged that he was beaten. But in the DC
one he was beaten, burned with a cattle prod arm
in a sling, tied up, thrown into a muddy, shallow

(35:38):
part of the Potomac. They didn't realize with shallow until
he landed like he thought he was about to be drowned.
H oops. No, he didn't realize it was it was shallow.
The cops did. They were messing with him right ed.
Cosh ordered the d C cops to throw him in
the Potomac, but he said keep it shallow, keeping muddy.

(35:59):
Uh yeah. And he's he's been attacked by private citizens
who just like, you know, there's that Guardian angel guy.
Let me see if I can get one in on him.
As recently, his last year in Penn Station, there were
these four kids that looked like they were getting in
a fight, and one of them like dropped drugs and
then picked him up, and he kind of went over
and like, hey, what's going on here? And they were like, hey,
look who it is. They literally said the words Newark

(36:22):
in the house. I guess they were from Newark. And
one of them sucker punches him in the face, and
knocks out his front tooth front tooth man and he well,
he said he couldn't afford to get it repaired. That's
how little money he has. Very Ralph nat he said,
in insurance won't cover it. They're calling it cosmetic. It's
so funny. This is in the article even he said
they're calling it cosmetic. But he said, my nerve is exposed.

(36:45):
It's very pains totally. That's exactly. That's a Curtess Leewa
quote if I've ever heard one. It's pretty funny. Following
up by Wolf for now, I've just kind of pulled
it up some paper towel to stand in with the
pictures of him like smiling big missing that front tooth.
So I think he took, as always the opportunity to
be like, hey, I'm still out there, I'm still getting punched,

(37:06):
look at me. And also, my insurance company is really
a bunch of dead beats. So there was another incident
where there was a guardian named Frank Melvin. Oh, this
is a big one. Heard about this incident going on,
rushed to the scene. And as he's rushing to the scene,

(37:26):
this is the this is the cops version. There's someone
on the roof, A cop on the roof, cop on
the ground, and they say, this guy comes rushing up.
I guess they didn't see his red beret and red
satin jacket and ordered him to halt. He didn't halt.
The cop on the roof shot and killed him. Twenty
six year old father of three, Sleewat says, this is

(37:48):
not what This is a big cover up. That's not
what happened at all. He said a sergeant on the
street stopped him dead in his tracks. He opened his
jacket and said, you know, I've got no weapon, there's
no reason to shoot. And they shot him anyway, And
as he was dying on the ground, they prevented other
angels from giving him CPR, which is a very specific claim.
It is pretty specific to make. So we held a

(38:10):
press conference alleging all this stuff. Like immediately afterward, he's
very agitated, very upset. Um And this is a I
guess you could say this is the low point of
police Guardian angels relations. They want a guardian Angel has
been shot and killed by the police. Um. But from

(38:30):
that point on, I think that was in That was
the beginning of the end of nineteen eighty From that
point on, it just started to change and improve, and
all of a sudden the cops kind of got on
the Guardian Angels side. Should we take a final break? Yes, alright,
final break that sounds so cryptic. We're gonna come back
and talk about, uh, the great eighties right after this

(39:01):
s k as sks kay, Chuck, We're talking about the gradies.
The grades are happening. The Guardian Angel she's listening for

(39:22):
once because Hodgeman is coming in, so she's so the
Guardian Angels are at their peak. Um supposedly topped a
thousand members and this is from courteously was recollection for
his numbers. Yeah, they're getting good publicity, so much so that, uh,
these budget cuts are going on and the crime rates

(39:43):
still sky high. Mayor ed Cotch has no recourse but
to luke warmly embraced them publicly. And that's the best
way to describe that. I think it was like, okay,
there he described them as chicken soup? Have they no
who said that? Cotton mayor of New York City at

(40:06):
this time, So he did. So this is a huge
turnaround from These guys are vigilantees and they need to
stop what they're doing. So this is a big deal
and it actually I don't know how much it had
to do with the real rise of the Guardian Angels,
but they they definitely saw their their membership swell, like
you said, their patrols. There was the height of the

(40:27):
Guardian Angels were the early early to right in the
mid eighties. Yeah, when we were kids and it was
just all over the place. Yeah, I'm trying to think
that they have a Saturday Morning cartoon or something, because
some part of my brain is like, dude, they may
have been on like Scooby Doo or something when they
did those years where they had all those weird guests. Yeah,
Jerry Lewis there, Jerry Lewis and Jerry Reid. Oh was

(40:50):
he on? Oh he was on a bunch of times,
really smokey. Yeah, he would sing pretty merry Sunlight or
Sunshine Man so they could find him through the duct
work or something that was bizarre. But he was on
a few times. Remember Batman and Robin the campy version
we're on. Yeah, Harlem Globe Trotter, Yeah, yeah, yeah, don
not don k nots of course I could do this
all the three Stooges, right, Oh, yeah, with Curly Joe. Okay,

(41:15):
they had their own cartoon for a little while, and
I suspect that that's why they were on Scooby Doo
is to kind of launch the cartoon version of themselves.
I definitely have a memory of seeing a cartooned Guardian
Angel too something. Yeah, I know, I'm agreeing. Okay, just
just me mayor ed catch agreeing with you. Podcaster Josh Clark,

(41:36):
thank you. So they developed a system. They're like, all right,
if we're all going to work together, let's get these
guys an I D card at least not a badge.
He called it a badge, Slee. I did, but it
wasn't a badge. It was a It was an I
D card that was official, and they a sort of
a detent and said, hey, let's all quit giving each

(41:57):
other hard time. We're all after the same thing here. Um,
And he said this all allowed me to open up franchises.
Did you say the badge was issued by the cops.
Though I don't think it was issued by the cops,
but I think it was agreed upon that will have
an official designation and an official I D card that
you recognize the part of getting that. I d card
was submitting as a Guardian Angel applicant to a police

(42:20):
background check. So there was this rout of legitimacy that
was that came from the police force. But whether the
police force wanted to be friends with the Guardian Angels
or not, Sleewa made a very um, a very purposeful
decision that the Guardian Angels would have nothing to do
with the cops. And he said later on in an

(42:41):
interview the reason why, it's because it would delegitimize the
Guardian Angels in these neighborhoods, that these people would be
seen as basically knarcs or snitches or you know, cops
um in neighborhoods where they didn't like cops very much.
But since the Guardian Angels were separate and had nothing
to do with the cops, they had their own legitimacy
that would have just been completely ripped away had they

(43:03):
been associated with the cops. Get that. So they started
popping up all over the country, Sacramento, l A, Buffalo, Cleveland,
Tyler Dirton at this point he was but he would
come in and uh, he would not bring maybe he
would bring some people to train them up momentarily, but
then they would go back home, and the idea was
that they would run it themselves under his direction. Yeah.

(43:24):
And so like the city officials who heard the Guardian
Angels were coming town, we're worried that a bunch of
New Yorkers were moving here to basically patrol this other
city streets. And it was never that. It was like
you were saying, they'd train local leadership. Um, just like
a dunkin Donuts. Yes, exactly like that run by Mary Coach.
So I saw somewhere, Chuck, that Cleveland actually invited the

(43:47):
Guardian Angels to open a chapter there. Yeah. So it
wasn't all like, you know, get out of here, We're
gonna kidnap you and throw you in the Potomac. Some
cities were like we need this, actually can come breathe
some life back into or downtown or whatever. Well, I
remember in nine one when the Atlanta child murders were happening,
they came to Atlanta to help out here, and I

(44:08):
remember very much that being on TV. Oh yeah, you know,
the that whole investigation by the FBI or the g
b I into the KKK as the suspects in the
atlanticial merders. The media found out about that because Spin
magazine reported on it. It's been magazine heard about it
from the Guardian Angels who have come to Atlanta, so

(44:28):
they technically broke that that story. Are you watching mind Hunter? Yeah,
that's part of the new season, is it. Yeah, it's
just medium good. That's my review. That's why I'm yeah,
I don't want medium good. Yeah, I'll get you. When's
the last time you want to watch a death wish
one through five? In the remake, I'm just punishing myself

(44:49):
until until something really great comes along. Sure, I hear
you that. In riff tracks, I just watch death So
let's talk about vigilantism for a second. In Bernie Gets,
I think we should do a whole episode on the
Bernie Gets It incident. Um, so should we not talk
about it at all? Really? No? No, we can't. All right, So,

(45:09):
the brief version is is Bernard Gets the subway shooter
was on a subway one night. These four African American
youths utes approached him and one of them said, hey,
give me five dollars. That was the extent of it, right, Yeah,
no weapons. I mean, there's a lot of different versions
of this story that came out in court, but apparently

(45:30):
did not brandish any weapons. Later on, he said, like,
one of them opened their coat and I thought he
had a weapon, but he very quickly and he even
described it as a quick draw, and he had it
all planned out. He said he had a sequence of
shots in his mind, ready to go left or right,
one shot each, and he shot these four kids and
it was a very complex case. Shot him without warning. Yeah,

(45:53):
it was a quick draw. But he didn't say like
stand back or don't come near. He just quick draw
and started shooting. Yep, quick drew quick He quick drew
and shot. Um. He said that he was in physical
danger and that one of might have had a weapon
everyone else or not everyone else was for the courts
to decide, but that he was not in immediate physical danger. Um.

(46:13):
And then and then there's this whole disputed fact about
whether or not he went up to one of them
that was slumped it down kind of on a seat,
walked up to him and said, you seem okay, here's
another bam. Later on he said, no, I probably just
thought that I didn't say it out loud. And then
there's a dispute about whether or not that shot even
landed and like if he was actually shot a second time,

(46:37):
So I really need to dig into this if we're
gonna do it for real. Well, but the long and
short of it is, there was a vigilante shooting on
the subway. Half of New Yorkers were like, good for you,
Bernie Gets, and half of New York said, no, don't
pull out a gun and start shooting people. And the
Guardian angels said, we're in the Bernie Gets camp. That's right,

(46:59):
so my so that that in Nive on the one
year anniversary of that shooting, they held a ceremonies celebrating,
celebrating Bernie Gets in the subway where the shooting took place,
in which you just don't celebrate people being shot. But
they really cast their lot behind Bernie Gets, and it
really damaged their credibility as upholders of you know, law

(47:21):
and order in the minds of a lot of everyday
New Yorkers. Yes, another thing that damaged the reputation of
the Guardians is when slee Wa was kind of forced
to admit later that, you know, early on, we faked
some of these things entirely. Talk about damaging your credibility.
There was one one of the first promotions that they
may have even still been the Magnificent thirteen was them

(47:44):
returning a wallet uh that had three hundred dollars in
it to like a parish priest or something like that.
And um, they drummed it up. They cooked the whole
thing up. They told the media about it and and
got a lot of press, a lot of early press,
and slee Wah says he regrets doing it, but also
it really helped, and that either he said it or

(48:05):
one of the early founders co founders said, have we
not done this, the organization probably never would have taken off. Yeah,
some of the other things supposedly faked. One of them
doused themselves in gasoline and said that you know a
criminal had done this, Yeah, because there had been another
crime where somebody had doused or set a ticket booth

(48:25):
operator on fire in their ticket booth at the subway,
and so they were basically capitalizing on that like it
was gonna happen again, and they stopped it. Another one
where you see these angels are all bruised up and bleeding. Uh.
Turns out that one of them had like fallen down
the steps and gotten bruised. The other one picked off
a scab and made it bleed again. Yeah, so gross. Yeah,

(48:47):
so this did not help their reputation, but you know
he's acknowledged being a big PR guy. Yeah, And that's
that's the thing. If you read those those replies in
the to that New Yorker article, they're like, basically, all
you've done is demonstrate that their PR hounds, but also
that they're actually good at what they're doing. So you know,

(49:08):
that's fine. That is a real, a real dat in
their legitimacy for sure that they faked it, Because then
you're like, how many did they fake? Which is in
dispute too. Yeah, um, what is not as in dispute
that we should cover quickly. As on June n Slee
was kidnapped and shot after entering a fake taxi or

(49:29):
I guess a stolen taxi. Uh, And it was supposedly
at the hands of John Gotti Jr. Because Sleewa went
on the radio show I think he still has a
show w a BC, Yeah, talking about you know Gott
he's just a drug dealer, he's a serial killer. And
John Gotti Jr. Didn't like that and was charged with

(49:51):
this crime but got off three different times. Three different trials, Yeah,
including one in when was the most recently in two
thousand five and all the juries, um said, I'm not
gonna know. All three juries were unable to agree to
convict him of these charges for that reason. No, you

(50:13):
never know, I'm not you know. Remember they used to
call John Gotti's senior the teflon Don Yeah, should do
you want on him too? Nothing sticks the eighties or
a gold mine for episodes? Okay, what a decade. So
the Guardian Angels still around. They came back again in
two thousand eighteen, although Curtis Lee Wat during publicity said

(50:33):
we didn't go anywhere. We've been doing patrols every night,
which may or may not be true. But you could
still find him if you look hard enough, or if
you go watch videos from two thousand eighteen. That's right. Uh.
If you want to know more about the Guardian Angels,
well go meet one. They'll tell you all about it.
But in the meantime, it's time for it's time for

(50:55):
our friend John Hodgeman. Did you see that signed on
the back of the I'm ac you appreciate that? Mike
from a bow Jack Horseman. I was wondering if that
was a bow Jack. I have not watched that show.
Don't tell it's not I've not seen an episode. You
should totally sign them back, though, Yeah, I'd love to.

(51:18):
That would be ironic. Get it for for the elderly.
Sure that a nordeck that you're wearing. This is not
a nord I know, I've yet to look to look
it up online, but I wondered. I was like, that's
not so bad. You're referring, of course, to the chapter
of my new book, Medallion Status, entitled Extinct Talkie about
the only sport that I like being. I was following

(51:40):
the logos of extinct talky teams. Northampton Nope, yeah, it's
you'll never get it. Is it an n and an
h it is? Okay? Yeah, I don't have any other guesses.
Let's try all the age towns with north and then
go through and start over with It's not, it's not
a town, okay, is it a bill so something? Hockey?

(52:02):
It's not, it's not and it's not the trick of it.
There is a guy who would come to my events
once I started talking about my fascination with the Hartford
Whaler's logo bestogo in sports. It's pretty great and the
Quebec Nordek's logo worst logo in sports, like an actively

(52:22):
aggressively bad design choice, Like it slams the door in
your face and you're like, I wasn't even going to knock.
Why are you doing this to me? I'm sorry, I'm listening.
I just have to find that. You need to look
it up. I know it the Quebec Nordeck's hockey hockey.

(52:43):
What would you say that is? Well, I mean I
get the hockey stick and puck part, but I don't
know what the other part the hockey stick so so
so it it It is supposed to be a blood
red iglue bisected by a hockey stick that does not
come through with a very large puck. But and the

(53:03):
and the angle at which the hockey stick bisex the igloe.
It's supposed to sort of suggest an end for Nordics.
I had always most people considered to be a form delephant.
I was gonna say. I had always taken it as
like I've seen this before. I just didn't realize what
it was. I thought it was some sort of Republican logo. Yeah,
it looks because it is red, white and blue. Yeah,
the only thing that you can't really account for is

(53:24):
the puck, which really is just a circle. Is it's um,
it's it's it's a confusing piece of design. And there
was a guy who would come to my shows uh
in New York and and still does, name Geene Montroselli,
but for a long time I didn't know his last name,
so I just referred to him as mysterious Gene. Because
at the end of every show, Yeah, you're looking at

(53:45):
the Hartford Whaler's logo, so smooth, so so so, I
mean the beauty of the beauty of the Hartford Whalers logo,
of course is not only does it have that beautiful
whale's tail and the W, but the two together form
a negative space h for Hartford. All of this has
gone on ad nauseum in the book, by the way,
and now this is what you can read in Medallion status.

(54:07):
You never do it? What No, No, he'd never noticed.
I gotta keep things going here, so right now, John
is y. Yeah, isn't that amazing. There's this trick that
John really design that you describe in the book, where
you show people that and you claim that some people
have gasped when you've pointed, everybody sees the w I

(54:28):
don't know if I picked up on a gas, but yeah,
Chuck was impressed. That's like the arrow in FedEx FedEx,
the negative Space arrow and fed You know that one,
of course. And you also had a new eight band
in the eighties called Negative Space. I did in the
early eighties, and from that mistaken right, well, I did
as a child. I thought you did know that someone
I was on tour with the Thompson Twins. I was

(54:48):
in Boston recently with another another Monster of podcaster, Nick Wiger,
who's one half of the Dough Boys. If you don't
know those guys, they feel the feel the breath, feel
their hot breath on your next They're coming for you.
Boys are coming. Everybody knows. Nick Wiger and I were
walking through Boston. My hometown ish from Brookline, and I

(55:08):
was like, there is the Boston Common. They used to
concerts on the Common and I said, that's where I
saw my first concert. Said oh wow, what was it?
I said, well, it was the Thompson Twins and he goes,
who are They just silently walked into traffic. That was fine.
My first is Halling Notates Hall of Notates till Tuesday opening.

(55:31):
That's amazing. Friend Amy Man, I would say, a friend
of friend of all, friend of all people. My experience
was cheap trick first show. And my experience with Amy
Man is I've met her a couple of times, briefly
as she's fleeing the room because more than five people
have showed up at the party. Hey man, it's very social.

(55:52):
And she goes on the Jonathan Colton cruise, which really, yeah,
could have been on right, you should never been invited.
Really we haven't. But we can buy tickets. I think
it's what John saying. No, I think, well, I'm selling tickets.
That's why I'm here. Let me get my cigar box.
I'll write out some write out some tickets for you.

(56:13):
So so anyway, Mysterious Jean would show up to my
shows and at the foot of the stage. After every
show he would be standing there, and I considered a
mysterious Geene because I hadn't bothered to learn his last
name and be he was acting mysteriously. He would just
lurk at the foot of the stage and bestow upon
me a new extinct hockey hat that he had found somewhere. Yeah,

(56:37):
like multiple times so like the Vancouver Millionaires who were
who were the became the Vancouver Canucks, the Montreal Wanderers
who were the English language community team hockey team in Montreal,
you know, because the Canadians were there, and are the

(56:57):
French now that the only hockey team. Why am I
talking about sports as we're talking, because you're know you've
traped out of extinct hockeing into like real hot Yeah,
I know it's I'm act become infected with a certain
amount of actual sports knowledge. You're done with big hockey.
Well that's the beauty of like as a as a
non I never under I never got into sports because sports,

(57:19):
as I discussed in the book, sports tends to be
about um winning. It seems like winning is the point
of their sports. And that's and I am only I've
only ever been a fan of an underdog like and
so I could get with. Growing up in Boston, I
could talk I'll be fine with the Red Sox because
they losers for so long and they were in this

(57:41):
constant battle against the quintessential bullies of sports, the Yankees,
and then they would they would fail. What are you
talking about? Because when I was going up the Red
Sox were like Wade Boggs and Roger Clemens, and they
were not losing, No, they weren't losers, but they wouldn't
make it. They would lose to New York, but they
beat everybody else and there listen to New York either.
It was just it was always a there was always

(58:04):
the curse, right right, yeah, like, oh yeah, that was
probably the World Series between the New York between the
Mets and uh right, yeah, the Miracle Mets. But you're
talking why are we talking about this? I thought the
Miracle Mets was six. It could be, I can't. But
you're talking about the curse, which is the fact that
the Boston Red Sox traded away Babe Ruth forever cursed. Yeah,

(58:29):
and they were right, and they were cursed, and they
were and they were never they couldn't win. They couldn't
win the World Series and they couldn't They didn't go
to the World Series for a long time. And when
they did, the ball went right through Bill Buckner's legs
um and that, you know, I could get behind that
because they were these consistent underdogs. When they won the
World Series, I was like, you guys are dead to me.

(58:50):
I can't I can't handle that. I can't handle that.
So the hockey is always underdog no matter what, even
at the highest level, because it's the least. It's the
minor ist of the major league sport. Yeah, and everyone
everyone who is a hockey fan in the United States,
you know, is some is to some degree a man
or woman without a country, and that country is Canada.

(59:10):
Like you just don't have it's you know, their teams
are constantly failing and moving and renaming. I mean they
have hockey in Phoenix, in Las Vegas. Yeah, it's ridiculous,
but you will. You make the point in the book
that like, even in a big city, it's still like
the little brother to the you know, baseball or basketball
or football or something. And hockey fans are They're true.

(59:31):
I mean, they're true fans. But I don't want to
give away too much, but I I do. After my
fascination with extinct hockey takes root. I talked in the
book about I wonder whether I would like actual hockey,
and I go to an actual hockey game, and for
the most part, I found it be awesome, charming, it's
nice that that cool air. It's just so bizarre to

(59:54):
be in a building and cold like, and it's a
certain kind of cold that feels good, make a lot fun.
It's it's the one sport that seeing it live really like,
even if you're not a fan, you could probably enjoy
a three hour experience. Yeah, well, what hockeyists are amazing?
You know. Ice skating alone is impossible enough, you know,

(01:00:17):
just to prevent yourself from falling down all that time,
never mind doing it backwards. And then someone hands you
a stick and says, now, hit that piece of hard
rubber into that tiny hard Yeah it's I I can't
I can't imagine it's it's so it's so challenging that you,
you know, the tension of the hockey games. You're waiting
for this almost impossible event of getting a goal. It's
like waiting to see a quantum event. So there's all

(01:00:41):
that's built up tension, and there's massive reliefs when it happened.
But it happened so quickly, like usually you look away
for a second and uh, and then you miss it.
But you know, I I enjoyed. I enjoyed. The hockey
itself was very charming because it was a Pittsburgh Penguins
game for whatever reason and against the Tampa Tampa bad guys. Yeah,

(01:01:04):
lightning right. I was. I was a Penguins person because
Ron Frans Ron Francis went from the went from the
Whalers to play for the So there was a whaler's
legacy there. And I stuff at the Penguins. Well no, no,
not necessarily, I no, no, no, no. People are really
into Whalers merchandise now, I think largely because of my

(01:01:27):
personal lobbying for the amazing, the amazing sports design. Uh
the logo by Peter Good and West Hartford, Connecticut. Um.
But before I went to this game, I called a
hockey blogger that I know, Greg Wushninsky, and uh, of
course he's a hockey blogger. And I was like, I'm
thinking of wharing my my whaler's hat to this hockey game.

(01:01:50):
But I don't. I don't want anyone to hit me.
I don't want I figure it's fine, but I just
wanted to double check that there are no deep rivalries
or thing that I'm going to be you know, triggering
among the And he said it was it was probably
people have a lot of fondness for the Whalers, and
that was fine, but I didn't I decided not to.

(01:02:11):
I bought a penguin's hat, and I wore the penguin's hat.
And the thing about extinct talky that is that is
so that is different from the thing about real hockey.
Actual hockey is different. Extinctalky is extinct talky. The outcome
is known. They lost, you know what I mean. You
just feel sad. You think about it, right, and actual
hockey is out it's unfolding in front of you. Don't

(01:02:32):
know the outcome. And as you know, I cannot tolerate ambiguity.
I dislike it very much. And I came down to
sudden death and I got really, really really nervous. And
Greg Greg had told me that Greg had told me that,
you know, when he would get nervous growing up watching hockey,
he would drink pink lemonade as a as a young person,

(01:02:53):
and that would that would help the team win. And
I was offended by that because I don't love sports,
but I have appreciation for athletes than what they're doing
is the the product of hard work and training and
and and physics and physical space. And you probably don't
believe in superstition either, Yeah, I believe in science, and
I think It's an insult to athletes for Greg to

(01:03:14):
think he can control their bodies with his mind and beverage.
To see a kid. He was a kid at the time,
but you know, there's plenty of adult plenty of supermissions.
And of course, in that moment in sudden death, after
you know, three periods and a couple of overtimes or whatever,
however was there has been a lot of hockey. I

(01:03:34):
was like tired and cold, and I had loved the hockey,
but I was ready for hockey to be over. But
I wanted my my team to win, the Penguins. Let's
go Pens. And at that moment of sudden death, I'm like,
you know what, I'm gonna put on my heart for
whale ers at because it's going to help them win.
Like science was abandoned, and all of a sudden I

(01:03:55):
was I was not really superstitions. I was convinced that
my my putting on a different hat was going to
affect the outcome of what was happening on the ice.
And when you think about it makes sense. Whalers penguins,
they're both marine animals. They're gonna work for each other,
you know what I mean? And of course I put
on the whaler's hat. Within a seven seconds, Penguins lose,

(01:04:19):
really Penguins lose, and just like the whole the whole
arena went dark. I felt like, and only I knew
that I had caused it to happen. Did you keep
it to yourself? Of course I did not tell anyone.
I'm sorry everybody, I that I forced the outcome. The
Penguins did not win. Was it a playoff game or anything?
Or just a playoff game? But I think that that year, don't.

(01:04:41):
I don't think they were eliminated. It was fine. They went.
They went on to do some more good hockey. So
what's the h on your head? Oh? So Jean would
bring right, mysterious Jean would mysteriously like would mysteriously appear.
He would operate Harry Potter style to the stage with
a new hat and the right and then oh, there

(01:05:03):
is one the Brooklyn Americans, which is a wait, wait,
just keep keep staying with mysterious change. No, that was
another he gave. There was a hockey team that played
for one season and then he started running out of
hockey teams, and he gave me this hat, which is
his really cool hat. It is not a hockey hat however,
and it is an existing sports team, but it is.

(01:05:23):
It is. It is a sports team in Japan. Okay,
is it a baseball team? It is a baseball team
and it is. Do you want to? I have no idea.
I've never seen it before. Baseball teams in Japan are
often organized around corporations. I don't know whether the corporations
formed the teams or sponsor the teams. But this is

(01:05:43):
a longstanding Japanese baseball team, like the Zerox Tigers or
something like the equivalent. Yeah, this is the company. The
NH is Nipon hamm Yeah, and these are the Nippon
ham Fighters, So it's the Nippon ham Fighters. That's a
crazy great hat. Yeah. I mean the logo doesn't really

(01:06:06):
get that across that their Ham or Fighters no in Japanese.
But the story behind it's pretty great. It's a pretty
good it's a pretty good looking logo and anyone can
look it up. It's the old fashioned one. If you're listening,
it's no hard Ford Whalers logo. But that I'll tell
you something that you know. I was I was in Boston,

(01:06:29):
um doing doing another podcast, The Doughboys, podcast. Sorry, who
are breathing down our next? Yeah, they're coming for you,
don't boys are coming in no small part because you're
aiding them apparently. I'm no, I'm just I'm what. What
is it when you are on the highway and you
drive real, real close to the back of a truck
back draftingrafting right? Yeah, that's how you you get mileage right,

(01:06:51):
because you're not you're reducing wind shear against you. You're
you're riding in their wake. That's what I'm saying. They
do that I'm doing with you guys, is what I'm
doing the dough boys. It's a way to go. You're drafting.
Just I'm just grabbing on and hanging on. I hope
you guys will bring me, but you don't need any help.
You have your own podcast, Judge John cult Classics. I
think it's bigger than ever too. It's doing very well.

(01:07:15):
I'm amazed, and you know doing it not quite as
long as you guys have been doing. But it's been
on for a long time. And I know people who
point to judgments that you've made to settle other disputes,
like no hodgement rule, that hot dog is not a sandwich,
hot dog is not a sandwich. People like that. Uh,

(01:07:36):
it's okay. I'm not going to get in. Yeah, I
mean it is not a sandwich at all. I don't
understand how that's true. Do you think it's a sandwich.
I it's not that I think it's a sandwich. It's
more I realize I'm inviting Hodgman to explain, and I'm refusing.
But I don't. I don't see how it has how
they I just think I have to go listen to

(01:07:57):
that episode because I'm more aware of the cultural aspect
of your ruling then I am with the actual episode.
Actually wasn't It wasn't an episode. I also write a
little column net in the New York Times magazine called
Judge John Hodgman. No one who reads the magazine knows
that there is a podcast called Judge John Hodgman. I
thank you, Josh. You are of course the exception proves

(01:08:19):
every rule, and no one, no one who listens to
the podcast ever reads the New York Times magazine, and
I do once again exception. But someone had written in
uh that he and his buddy were having a fight
where the hot dog was a sandwich. I had to
think about it. For a long time because I appreciate
why you would sort of say, well, of course it is,

(01:08:42):
but there is something weird and different about it that
makes the question sticky, right, I mean, like, and I
was trying to think, you know, what would be the
disqualifying factor? What would be the trait? Because there are
many traits that hot dogs and a typical sandwich you know,
your class and a sandwich nip on Ham go fighters

(01:09:05):
uh having common in terms of bread and and filling,
proportion and style whatever condiments, especially like Chicago style. It's
a sandwich. He as a hot dog, and it's obviously shaped.
It's obviously shaped different than a classic nippon Ham sandwich,
like straight up square cutting triangle with bread that's not
connected right, No, I think that's a big one. Yeah,

(01:09:27):
And so is that the disqualifying thing that it's shaped
and it has connected bread. Well, I would say, I
would never strike me to say that a sub or
a HOGI or a hero is not a sandwich. Oh,
that's a great point. Hero ain't nothing but a sandwich.
According to young adult literature, I don't know that that's
an old goose bumps reference or even before then, Remember,

(01:09:49):
how are you boys, It's like a Thompson Twins era thing. Man,
I'm older. I'm older. I'm not young like you guys,
you're my same exact age. I'm two months older than you.
But finally, the thing is that true March your June right,
I'm June. Yeah? Oh yeah, happy birthday, old man, you're
young a hard Happy birthday to you both. So hot

(01:10:11):
dogs so that you didn't want to explain this again,
but now it happened, So I said, what what is
the what is the other trait that hot dog? What?
What is is there any disqualifying trait that would that
a hot dog would have that a sandwich wouldn't, or
vice versa. And then I realized, like, well, yeah, ahogia hero,
sub grinder, wedge sandwich they call those wedges and buffalo

(01:10:36):
you you you you would cut those in half and
share them. Any sandwich, anything that I consider a sandwich,
you cut it in half and share. Like soup and
a half sandwich, that's a thing. You never get soup
and a half hot dog. That'd be weird. Would you
cut in foot long in half? Well, I'm not saying
you physically can't. No, you would never. I would never ever, ever, ever,

(01:10:57):
ever cut wouldn't have I love. It's like to appease
an extremely not extremely pigy job, but a child. Sure
what I mean? Right? You just made me physically high.
You did something in my brain with that disqualified. Plus,
the hot dog Bun has that that metal door hinge
on the bottom. Pokey can too. Yeah, they don't have
a metal door hinge. Yeah, alright, you get settle door hinge. Yeah,

(01:11:21):
that's what the hot dog bun. That's how it fits together, right, metal. Yeah,
it's got that metal door hinge. That's what happened to
your teeth? H's what happened. I was doing a bit guys,
so sorry, sorry, So I've read this book of yours.
This is what your fifth book. This is my fifth book.
Medallion Status do out October, hardcover. I believe you you

(01:11:42):
in hardcover, also electronic printing pre ordered. It's available for
pre order and audio book also all available on oct
and depending on when you hear this, you may either
order or pre order it at bit dot lee Slash.
Medallion Status all one word, all capital letters, and I'll
take you to your anywhere you buy books, including indie bound.

(01:12:03):
If you want to connect with your local two ells
in medallion these days? Two ells in medallion? Did I
spell it wrong in my mind now or on my book?
Is that one of the typos you found? So they
in this book. It is dripping with nostalgia. And one
of the things you're kind of famous for on our
podcast these Days is for considering nostalgia to be utterly toxic. Toxic.

(01:12:27):
I don't know if you remember coming on a couple
of years ago. I remember very much, and nostalgia is
a toxic impulse. Is also so how do you become
a man? A meaningful point of settled law? And Judge
John Hodge where people are trying to erase progress and
believe it can be done, and I think that that's
a terrible social movement. And culturally, when we get too

(01:12:52):
fond over fond of the past and just want to
live in it and live in it, living it, you've
got a culture where they're making Battlestar Galactica again, right, No,
I mean just today you know they're they're rebooting Battlestar
Galactica a third while now a second I hadn't heard that.
Is there a one? I don't know, just because just

(01:13:13):
because I believe that it's a piece of toxic nostalgia
doesn't mean I don't need a job. I had one.
I had a bit role. I had a bit role
on on the On the two thousand three to two
thousand nine, Ronald D. Moore David like show run Battlestar
Galactic sci. I was in the fourth season, and um,
I did not do a good job and it's not
worth watching. What was your big line? These pretzels are

(01:13:35):
making me thirsty. It really is a very I think
I was referring to a guy's brain scan and I
was a brain doctor Space brain doctor, right, and I
was like, it really is a very lovely image. All
I care about is how how crazy. All I care
about is how uh perfectly this bullet got lodged in

(01:13:56):
his main character's brain and his wife Starbuck, is like
freaking out because he can't speak anymore because he's gotten,
um what, he's shot in the brain. He's been shot
in the brain and it's it's effective, you know, but
like we call it word salad, but it has a
a term. A brain a brain injury that causes you

(01:14:16):
to be able to and aphasia. Yeah, yeah, so he's
going into a phasia fugue States, and I'm like, yeah,
it's called words out, it happens. But anyway, this is
really amazing. I thought Starbuck was the name of the
robot and Buck Rogers. Know you're talking about tweaking tweaky.
Maybe you need a little more nostalgia. Maybe I'll prescribe

(01:14:37):
a little bit for you. I've been avoiding it ever
since you came on last time, so I'm like, wow,
if it is, I feel bad if you interpreted that is,
I think. Never think about that, really, John, I was
just going through here looking for something, something that Joshy
Sandbag is known for. So this book actually made me

(01:14:57):
laugh out loud multiple times. Thank you very much, Like
I can't remember last time I read something that made
me laugh out out. Did you not read Vacation Land,
my previous book. I actually did not. He didn't know
I haven't read. Well that's interesting because yeah, this is
my fifth book. But for the first three, obviously or
perhaps not so obviously, were were compendiums of fake triviua

(01:15:18):
of fake facts, and yeah, I loved I loved making them,
although by the third one I was like, I cannot
come up with a a Zeppelin joke. Anymore, like like,
this is not what I want to be doing anymore.
And by that time, you know, a lot of people
were venturing into fake facts as a as a cultural

(01:15:39):
and political tool, and I wanted to get away from that.
And so you took a long break though between writing these, said, Well,
it was a couple of years when I was just
going up on stage in in Brooklyn, just telling whatever
stories I could tell to make people engaged and laugh ideally,
and then collecting extinct hockey caps from mysterious gene at

(01:15:59):
the end of the night. And then I finally compiled
those what I was trying to figure out what I
still had to say, and what I realized about those
stories were they were all true. They weren't dissembling, they
were an arch they weren't absurd as humor. They were
just sort of first person stories from my life in
vacation land as I was transitioning um from one geographical

(01:16:20):
place to another, from Brooklyn, New York to rural Maine,
where we spend a lot of time now and from
and traveling through a different wilderness of middle age, and
sort of adjusting to the fact that I was The
time does move forward and I'm not. I'm not staying
the same age. Well, the book makes it sound like
you're well, thank you very much. Well, so medallion status

(01:16:41):
is not, you know, it is stories from the same
period of time. But rather than talking about the time
that I spent in the in the cold, painful beaches
and cold painful water of Maine, back on the road,
working on various television shows and all the various weird jobs.

(01:17:01):
Because you talk about the Coolidge Corner movie house, I
talked about all the weird jobs that I've always had,
including the weirdest job you know that was the most
recent one, which was this unexpected experience of being on
television and being somewhat famous, and then the experience of
sort of losing that job, not completely just did it.
Just did a two episode arc on the unnamed television program. Yeah,

(01:17:25):
it's really maddening just how little you actually name in here.
You don't name drop almost at all. Oh, well, that's true,
I guess. I guess. I don't know why I did that,
because you could probably figure out all the different shows
and I'm referring to. But it's just if you don't
do that, it becomes this kind of ongoing saga, what

(01:17:45):
show is he talking to? I'm here too, I'm here
to unload. Killed a couple of times. Yeah, what shows
were you killed on? I was killed on UM. I
just remembered another one. That's why I paused, because the
two that I always remember are The Nick and blind Spot.

(01:18:05):
But I was also killed on John Glaziers Do Located.
But that's a different story. My main deaths. We're on
NBC thriller blind Spot. Did not see that. Uh, well,
you're one of a few people in the world because yeah,
is a huge internationally. It's well, not so great because

(01:18:26):
I got killed. Is it the one where you were
a bad FBI agent? I was an evil FBI, evil
FBI agent who was a meanie to every all the
nice people. I also was killed off screen in The Nick,
which did the Soderberg's thing, um, but the blind The
blind Spot death was particularly frustrating because the show was

(01:18:48):
was created by a friend of mine who had been
UM a producer and writer on Board to Death, which
is a HBO, was one of my faiths me too,
and I really missed that and everybody Martin created at
this new show, which is this thriller that is very
smart and fun, and and a second bunch of puzzles

(01:19:08):
and visually very distinctive and and it was very proud
to be I was very proud to be asked to
be a small part of it. But you know, all
those things are great. But the really great thing about
blind Spot is, and I'm not sure everyone who watches
it around the world appreciates this, particularly great thing about
blind Spot is that it shoots at Steiner Studios, which
is a twenty minute drive from my house. That's it

(01:19:28):
was the greatest. It was like going like as a
person who has held tons and tons of different weird,
oddball jobs from literary agent to uh cheesemonger, to traffic
counter to famous minor television personality to podcast or to whatever.
You know. It's a it's a wonderful, itinerant experience where

(01:19:50):
you learn a lot and you get to meet a
lot of people. But at you're hustling all the time, hustle, hustle,
hustle to just drive to my job and park at
this video and then go in and then have a
little breakfast and then say my words and make my faces,
which is what acting is, and then drive home like

(01:20:11):
a straight up dad the greatest board to death was
in your neighborhood too, right, Board to death shot there,
a lot board to death shot all over the all
over Brooklyn, however, but blind s about a lot of it.
She's just right in that studio and it was just
this controlled, comfortable environment and they have snacks for you.
I was like, this is I'm ready, like I'll do
this for the rest of my life. I'll cancel everything else.

(01:20:32):
I'm gonna blind spot it till the end. And then
Martin goes, did you read the next script? And I'm
like no. He's like, oh, you don't like it? And
I did like it because it turned out my character
was a monster, But then that monster got put down.
Rather than being a monster for years on the show,
I was a monster for a second on the show.
And I got and I and I got the evil
FBI agent got shot dead by the nice by the

(01:20:55):
nice ees, and and I was like, I don't want
that to happen. And I said to and many times like,
is there any you know I know this? A lot
of people who die on the show come back as
like a flashback or a hallucination. And he goes, yeah,
that happens like what what if? What if I what if?
What if I come back as a hallucination or a flashback.

(01:21:17):
I don't think that's really gonna have an idea. How
about I come back as my own twin, except instead
of as an evil twin plot line, is a good twin.
I'm a good twin and I don't and I am
not mean to everybody, and they make me part of
the good guy club and he's like, Matt will never
never ever happen. But it was the show that sort
of started the maximum in my career. And I would
say to show runners whenever I would hire, be hired

(01:21:39):
in the guest role or whatever, I'd be like, you
gotta kill me. You gotta kill me in the show,
because every show that I that I am killed in
becomes a huge commercial and critical success, and every show
that I live in gets kimped. Yeah, and you almost, um,
this is a part that you would have gotten killed
in but did not. Was breaking bad? You almost played

(01:22:01):
Gabe was a Gabe? Which one was Gabe? I don't,
I don't. It was a major character in the second
or third season. I remember the actor who was cast,
David Costabile or David Costable is how he pronounces his name.
I always thought it was costabile. But he's an incredible actor,
Okavid Constable, And you've seen him in everything from the

(01:22:22):
Wire Too uh to Fly to the Concords. I think
he's on billions or something now. He's a constantly working
actor and entirely appropriately and frankly did a much better
job than I could have done in that role. But
I had been offered that role. And this is a
role of um waltz uh assistant after he and Jesse

(01:22:46):
part who gets killed? Who does get killed? Spoiler for
those of you who have not watched all the Breaking
bed and um and I was afraid to take the
job because it meant going and spending a lot of
time in Albuquerque, and I was just made me scared,
like I'm leaving my family behind and being Albuquerque. And
it was a terrible mistake for me. I mean it

(01:23:09):
was it like, yeah, I should have left my family behind.
They would have handled it. It would have been incredible
learning opportunity for me and an incredible experience. Um and
so it was a terrible mistake for me. A great
outcome for Breaking Bad, but you because they got David
Constable to do it, and I'm sure, I'm I mean,

(01:23:30):
what he brought to that, and I'm sure his role
got much bigger because of what he was doing. I'm
sure if I had gotten that role there would like,
can we kill him sooner? Let's not, let's not draw
this out, Let's just have this happen right away. And
I saw him uh at at a coffee shop in
New York, Eisenberg's my favorite old timy coffee shop, and

(01:23:51):
he was there and I just said, I'm I'm really
glad you got that role. He's like, it's actually it's
pronounced constable, he said, I always thought it was Costa bile.
How does it? How is it pronounced? On the audio
version of Medallion Status, I don't know his I did
not mention his name. I didn't really. I only told
that story and in reflection in Medallion's Yeah, because in

(01:24:15):
the book you say um like go to say yes,
which I thought was really it's a good it's good advice. Yeah,
you know. I was asked the subtitle of the book
is True Stories from Secret Rooms. Because I've always been adept,
even before I was whatever, I am famous of sort

(01:24:37):
of getting getting into getting into rooms that I wasn't
necessarily invited into UM and I loved peering into secret
societies of different kinds. And you know, when you when
you were on TV a little bit, you get invited
into gifting lounges at the Emmy's and into private parties

(01:24:58):
or whatever. And then I than but on my own
without and I guess because I had a little bit
of Famale house, I was able to weasel my way
into a dinner at Yale University of a secret society.
They're called booking Snake and the secret societies at Yale
University are you in into Yale and Yales a very
old college. It predates frats, so they had to come

(01:25:21):
up with other systems for young men to hang around
each other and lived together. So they're like they were
still figuring it out. So they're like they had two experiments.
One was uh, secret societies, which are these senior societies
about fifteen to twenty seniors originally all men at the time,
you know, but a book Skull and Bones is the

(01:25:43):
most famous ones. And snake, um Scroll and Key or
some of the other ones. And they inhabit these these
windowless these beautiful but looks like like beautiful old municipal buildings,
architecturally very significant, built in the nineteen winnies or so,
and often as ignated landmarks. And they have no windows,

(01:26:04):
and they're just clubhouses for seniors. It's like it's they're
they're like tomb they're called tombs, and they're you know,
sort of museums of white privilege that you wander. And
then the other thing that the other idea they came
up with was like how many acapella How many acapella
singing groups can we have? Thirty five? It's like there's

(01:26:25):
more acapella per per capita in New Haven than anywhere
else on the earth, and no one's doing anything about it,
was shutting it down. So I had wanted to go
into Book and Snake. This is part of the reason
I maybe the reason I apply to Yale, because I
was fascinated by these clubs, and I had gotten invited
to go to one um as a freshman, a party

(01:26:49):
at Book and Snake, and I was so excited that
I got ruinously drunk. As soon as I was in there,
I fell down the stairs, hit my head, woke up
in the hospital. I was very lucky that nothing has happened. Yeah,
that's pretty lucky. And you could have been an offering
that evening. Maybe that was what was supposed to have happened.
But they found somehow, they found me screaming the New Haven,

(01:27:11):
bloody wearing wearing nothing but a but a loincloth and
a goat mask. I don't know what happened. It was wild,
but like all of them, and I tried to remember.
All I wanted to do was see inside this building.
And I had, I had been in there, but all
of my memory of the inside had been erased. I
could not remember what had happened. I remember the last

(01:27:32):
thing I remember was walking up to the door. I'm like, blood,
these secrets, societies, No, they're stuff. He really came out
or erase a mind, Just get somebody liquored up and
push him down the well. And I think, I think
I did it myself. But when I got when I
got a little bit of renown and was would tell
this story on stage, and it was getting around. I

(01:27:54):
was I was contacted by a couple of booking snakes,
yeah snaky's. I won't say their names. It was a
man and a woman. We'll call him booker and snake. You,
and they said, why don't you come to dinner, And
I'm like, yeah, I want to come to dinner in
this clubhouse. And I went and it was so weird

(01:28:15):
and exciting too, and like, you know, life, life doesn't
offer perfect circles very often. And the the image as
on the cover of the book by Aaron Rapplin of
the the logo of Book and Snake is a book
and a snake an Ora boros a snake eating its
own tail. So it's like this perfect Like that's a

(01:28:36):
that's a symbol of eternity and also a symbol of
the dumbest snake in the world. Maybe I like that
snake was about to eat my own butt by going
back in. But we had a wonderful time, and you know,
they were really nice, young young people. Um, there was
some older alumni who would come in, Like there was
one guy, James, who's in his early thirties and he

(01:28:59):
just told me he'd just been appointed. Public transportations are
for New Haven. I'm like, you know, if there any
Alex Jones people out there who are wondering, is the
is the public transportation of uh some some small southern
Connecticut cities run by secret societies. The answer is, yes,

(01:29:20):
Illuminati is real. If they're they're running your public buses
in Haven and um, it was just we had a
fun time. We're hanging out and at some point the
the young people, out of politeness, said, you know, well,
you know, what's the what what would you say as
a secret to your success such as it is? You know,
and you can keep secrets, you know, that's right. The

(01:29:46):
answer was go on television that the advice, the advice
that I gave them was, first of all, don't get
drunk and fall down the stairs. Please, don't get drunk
and fall down the stairs. Don't, you know, don't think
that you're immortal, you know, don't especially you know, white
white guys truly don't understand that they're breakable until until

(01:30:07):
they get older. You don't grow up with the sense
of my body can be harmed or taken at any moment,
m by another figure of authority or another person in
the way non white guys feel every day, you know
what I mean. Like, so they do things like jump
off cliffs in Hawaii, climb up mountains and fall downstairs

(01:30:29):
because they think they're immortal. But you're not. You can
fall down you can break your neck and die. So
don't do drunk and stay down the stairs. And the
other thing is the secret of my success. It's the
same secret for what brought me to the Secret Society,
which is someone invited me to do something and I
said yes, and you know, don't say you know if
if you're not If you're invited to do something interesting

(01:30:51):
and it's not going to hurt you or somebody else,
you should say yes. You should see what happens. That's
I mean, that's so much harder to to to do
sometimes than than is said. But it's it is just
that it's core good advice. Well, I'm an incredibly smart person.
These kids, these kids I'm sure have thrived in my wake.

(01:31:11):
But you know, it's like I didn't say yes to
that job in Albuquerque, and I regret it. I could
have easily said yes. But people asking you to do
interesting things is also it's it means sometimes having to
leave a job, but means sometimes having to tell someone
you care about you're gonna be away for a while.
It means your comfort change and your and what time

(01:31:34):
you wake up, you know what I mean. And it's
really easy to come up with a lot of reasons
why you would say no. But if it's it's better
to just say yes and see what happens. And I haven't,
I've hardly I've certainly failed in that a lot. But
take that, Nancy Reagan. Yeah, just say just say, just
say yes. Do you have any tour dates that you

(01:31:55):
want to plug? Yeah? So, uh, all all of my
I'll just preface this by saying all my tour dates
are available at John Hodgman dot com slash tour Beautiful.
The Medallion Status tour is going to be taking me
to famous John Hodgman stomping grounds like Brookline, Massachusetts, Symphony

(01:32:17):
Space where I'll be talking with our friend Elizabeth Gilbert.
Los Angeles, where I'll be talking with our friend Damie Mann.
Uh San Francisco. We're I'll be talking with my friends Linus,
the Corgy and Choppers, the Corky too famous Corgies of Instagram,
who figure prominently in this book. They are too famous Corkies. Yeah,

(01:32:37):
they're on the cover. Look, I want the book to sell,
you know what I mean? And I put to two
quaries on the cover. I'm guaranteed a ten percent bump
in the sales. But when I One of the stories
I talked. One of the secret rooms that I got
into was a party at during San Francisco Sketch Fest
at Adam Savage's workshop, the MythBusters. Adam Savage plows all

(01:32:59):
of his myth sister's money into his deep, deep, and
rewarding hobby of proper replication. Have you been to his workshop?
I have not. We should we should go there. Sometimes
I would look to it sounds amazing like he just
he makes things from the movies. So he'll make a
perfect replica of Tom Scarrett space suit from Alien or
that Blade Runner. Yeah, he's made this. Making making Harrison

(01:33:22):
Ford's blaster from Blade Runner has been this lifelong pursuit
that he's perfected and perfected. I mean he he's made
I think six for other people and six more for
himself or something like that, like just in case it
goes down and there's and there or do they actually function? No, no,
no they don't. And he's got he's got like a
Han solo and carbonite hanging up in there, and he's
got a full size Admiral lack Bar that Admiral Ackbar

(01:33:44):
is dressed at dressed up in uh Napoleonic War era
naval uniform that is a perfect replica of Mastering Russell
Crowe's causton and Mastering Commander. And I wasn't this party enjoying,
this exclusive invitation only party with all these other comedians
enjoying which just watching and enjoying nerd minds exploding. And

(01:34:07):
I see these two dogs in there, and I'm turning
to Kevin Murphy and like who invited the people with
the dogs? And he goes, Oh, the people weren't invited.
The dogs were invited. Like what he says, Yeah, that's
the line is the Corgy and Choppers of the quarter
to famous corgies of Instagram. My friend Connor Lestoca is
a huge fan of theirs and invited to the party.
And I'm like, wait a minute, I just I just

(01:34:30):
performed comedy on stage in English that I speak on
two legs, not four, and I can sweat all over
my body. I don't have to have to pant. And
these guys are getting invited to my exclusive party because
they're dogs. They probably don't even know what planet Admiral

(01:34:50):
Lackbar is from. Answer is mom, Calamari, there you go, dogs?
It real, mon, Calamari, Mom Calumar. It is a dumb, terrible,
dumb star. That's terrible. So anyway, yeah, Lionus and Shoppers
are going to be there in San Francisco or no,
we're gonna final. We've become friends now and basically I'm
draft I'm I'm I'm draft back drafting them. You don't

(01:35:13):
want to You don't want to back draft a dog
too closely, but especially tales. Yeah, exactly, you can't get
pretty close. And then uh, and then we're I'll be
in Minnesota and Chicago, and then in November we're gonna
hit a bunch of other cities. Um, Jesse Thorn and
I as a Judge John Hodgman tour, You're coming here

(01:35:33):
to Atlanta, coming here to Atlanta, the Variety looking forward
to that. It'll be a lot of fun. Um Washington,
d C, Toronto, Portland, Maine, and Durham, North Carolina. So
and all of those those will be Judge John Hodgman shows,
but Medallion Status will be available for purchase. And whether
it's a Judge Sean Hodgen show or a Medallion Status event,
I'll be hanging around signing everything, hanging out or whatever.

(01:35:55):
And you're big at that I will say you know,
I will say this again, dot Lee slash medallion status.
Sorry in this in this crowded culture, you gotta hashtag
always be plugging. That link is the preorder link um,
and I ask people to consider buying it that way

(01:36:15):
because getting a Russian preorders right at the top is
really really helpful to the launch of the But I
don't want to punish people who have pre ordered and
then come to the book and then come to the
book tour, because some of these events, not all of them,
you have to buy a book to get in. So
what if you've already bought one, right, and then you
got to buy another one to come in and see me?
You're gonna blow me off or feel like a jerk.

(01:36:36):
Is there like a coupon they can print out? We're
get him a little treat, aren't you? I give him
a little treat. Everyone who comes and gets a book
on the book Tour or the Judge Sean Hodgment tour
gets an Aaron Draplin designed enamel lapel pin that has
a picture of a Corgy on it and it says
famous Coregy. Hang on a second, pretty nice, right? What

(01:36:57):
if you pre ordered the book as a hardcover, I
an e book as an audiobook, and then you get
a copy of the book at the event you get us,
you get an upgrade, you get a new pen. Does
it have a twenty dollar bill that it's stuck into.
But this is only for people who buy two copies
of the book and can show me the in the
signing line that they've got two copies of the book

(01:37:18):
in any format for whatever reason. Double corgy, double corgy,
because I've got all about medallion status. This is all
about upgrades systems, loyalty systems. I've got two of all
your books because I always buy one and then you
always give me one. Well, certain there are there are
even even higher levels of status that you can achieve,

(01:37:40):
and and you both have earned for your for your very,
for your long term kindness to me and excellence to everyone.
You both get a triple corgy elape badge. Man, and
there is there are triple corky elape badges. And when
I was suggesting this scheme to the publisher, I had
a fair I had this criteria for our criterion for

(01:38:02):
triple corgy Elite that I have now forgotten. So I
think it's just gonna be a little bit, a little
bit discretions. I think that's good though. You should be
able to be discretionary. And the Triple Corgy Elite badges
is and it's all. They're all beautiful enamel pins designed
by Aaron Drappling you. I can't wait to get mine.
And uh and uh I think I have I think
I have one for you in my bag. Okay, great, well, John,

(01:38:26):
thank you for coming. Thank you very much for being
your John Hodgeman dot com slash tour bit dot lea
slash medallion status. You want my newsletter, it's bit dot
lea slash hodgemail H d G M A I L.
It's a very fun newsletter. Yeah really, hey, thanks. Medallion
status is all capital letters, all one word. When medallion
says lea slash hodgemail, it's all small letters, all one word.

(01:38:47):
Because why be consistent. Also check out my new every
now and then mid day Instagram live show Get Your Pets,
where I interviewed dogs and cats on Instagram. That's fantastic.
Thank you so much for having me, John, anytime, we
can do this every week if you want. Okay, okay,
I would love to you come down. We'll put you on.
Why don't you come on the Judge John Hodgman podcast too.

(01:39:08):
I've been on before. I know, let's do it again
across the streams. All right, I gotta do something to
fight against these dough boys. Okay, you got it? All right? Well,
if you want to get in touch with this, you
can get touch with Hodgeman. What's your website? One more time?
That's the home of John Hodgman, John Hodgman dot com,
at Hodgeman on Twitter, at John Hodgman on Instagram, their

(01:39:30):
Facebook group pages for Judge John Hodgman and stuff like that.
We don't care about us, and yeah but dot lee
slash medallion status okay, And then for us, you can
just go to stuff you should Know dot com and
find all of our social links on their simple or
you can email us. You can wrap it up, spank
it on the bottom, and send it off to stuff
podcast at I Heart radio dot com. Stuff you Should

(01:39:56):
Know is a production of I Heart Radios. How stuff
works from more podcasts for heart Radio, visit the i
heeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. M h m hm

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Stuff You Should Know News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Chuck Bryant

Josh Clark

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Guardian Angels: Behind the Red Beret