June 11, 2013 • 41 mins
You can trace the origin of men dressing as women in public back to classic Greek theater, but modern drag queens owe their real inception to vaudeville. Dip your toe into the politics and culture of this unique phenomenon with Josh and Chuck.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know front of House, Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Uh, and this
is stuff you should Know. Chucks Chant just a couple
(00:22):
of drag queens hanging out and chop. We should say
Chuck and I are both in full drag right now.
That's right. Uh, you did a nice job with the
the hair, the wig. I like, thank you. You find
it big. You know you can't get too big if
you're a drag queen. I'm a little more fishy than glamour.
The lashes are nice, and I noticed, keeping with the
(00:43):
tradition set by Julian Eltinge, your hands are quite feminine.
Oh well, I'm holding them in a very feminine manner.
Well done. Thank you. There powdered just right. The knuckles
aren't his hair easy usual? And I like your campy drag.
Thank you. I had no idea that your forearms are
so big and that you had an anchor tattoo. That's right.
(01:04):
And if you notice my crotch, ah, you won't notice
anything smooth as a ken doll. That's right. It's taped
and tucked. You're wearing a gaff a, so that's really
all you need to know. I went online and I
looked up how to how to make a gaff or gaffs.
I was like, I think I understand what this is,
but I need to find out. And I saw a
(01:26):
YouTube tutorial by a drag queen how to make one
out of um, like an underwear waist band, like an
elastic band and a tube sock cut on either end
so it's open okay, and you just slide the tube
sock or no, you slide the elastic band through the
open tube sock and uh step into the elastic band,
(01:48):
right because it makes two holes that way sure for
your legs. And then I guess it's everything gets real compressed. Well, uh,
that's great. I used duct tape. It's a little more uncomfortable.
I'm going to use your method for them for that
video too, But yeah, it looked like it looked cheap, easy, quick,
and as comfortable as that kind of thing can be.
(02:10):
So people, if you were not one that reads titles
to podcasts and you just say, you know, I'm and
just hear what's going on, we're talking about drag queens
and it has an interesting history and it's an interesting culture,
and we like to cover those things. So let's do it. Uh, well,
this is a Conger article, Yes, Kristen Conger from stuff
Mom Never told You. Yeah, and she did a really
(02:31):
good job, like kind of tracing the history and like
really getting into the culture of of drag queens. And um,
it turns out that there is a considered father of
drag queens, although he went to great pains to um
suggests that he wasn't gay. That's because he was totally gay.
I think so, Like I noticed she used the she
(02:52):
pointed out that he's a bachelor. Yeah. I looked up
more on that. It was often rumored that he were
talking about who he mentioned earlier with the hands do
Lean Eltinge Lteinge and uh born William Dalton. And this
is early twentieth century. And he made a big, big
name for himself dressing like a lady. Yeah, performing in vaudeville. Um.
(03:16):
He started out, I guess as a Vouldville performer, but
then he he was in a play called The Fascinating
Widow in nineteen eleven. Apparently the ladies loved him, loved
his drag because he was just really good at it.
And um, from there he ended up with he ended
up on screen in films, sponsorship deals. Yeah, he apparently
(03:37):
was the highest salaried performer of his age. Um, there
were fan magazines dedicated to him and like dressing up
as women zines, multiple znes Yeah, at least three. Um
and uh. He performed for King Edward the Seventh of
the UK. He was delighted by his performance. So this
(03:58):
guy Julian elt just like making quite a name for himself.
And and again he he went to great links to
be like, look at me, I'm a guy. See I'm
smoking cigars and I'm fishing. Yeah, but i'd like, I said,
I looked into it more. And apparently he would. Um,
he would attack people in the audience sometimes when they
would yell out derogatory terms about his masculinity, and he
(04:21):
would challenge people to fights and things. And he was
a lifelong batchelor. So I think that probably meant that
he was gay, right, which is fine because as a
cross dresser, you can be gay or straight, doesn't matter.
You might transgender, doesn't matter. Yeah, they're all different stripes
of people who like to put on the opposite clothes
of whatever their gender is, because they are kings as
(04:41):
well and perform on stage. It's just you know, it's fun.
It's a lighthearted, fun thing, right. Well, that's the whole
point of it. It's supposed to be lighthearted and fun.
It wasn't always though, Um. There was a very long
period where when men dressed up as women on stage.
It was because women weren't allowed to perform on stage,
(05:03):
so men were frequently like doing this, uh, straight, very
seriously in dramas um in Greece. In ancient Greece, it
was considered dangerous for women to be on stage, and
they were not allowed to be in any of the
Greek dramas, which kind of ironic because the Greek theater
arose out of the Rites of Dionysus, which were performed
(05:24):
almost exclusively by women. And then but once it was
established a theater, the member like, thank you for bringing
this to our attention. No go over there because it's
too dangerous here right, very interesting, uh. And in the
Middle Ages, of course, um, the Christian Church chimed in
and said, you know what, here's what theater is. It is, um,
Bible stories on stage in church church pageants, basically, it's like, oh,
(05:48):
you used to like the theater, We'll get a load
of this because this is what it is now. Yeah,
and women were not allowed to take part in that.
Of course, men would play the parts of women. Uh.
And it wasn't until the seventeenth century and read that
women finally uh the stage opened up and they were
allowed to tread the boards. Yeah if uh. In Shakespeare's era,
um men played both roles. And I think what was
(06:11):
it sixteen sixty that one of the kings in England,
Charles two, Yeah, that sequel. He said, you know what,
let's let the ladies back on stage. But even after that,
this idea of men dressing up as women still continued on.
And women are actually dressing as men and what they
called breaches roles, but they were breaches. They's pretty straightforward terminology.
(06:35):
But King Charles called the bluff of all the performers.
He was like, you know what, you don't have to
dress his women anymore. We'll just let women on stage.
And the guys were like, but but but we fine,
we really like this. Yeah, And well what happened to
was men started to play women in a in a
funnier way and it was more for comedy because they
(06:57):
wouldn't try to look super feminine. They would try to
look like a big burly man in address, which is
sort of like in the Monty Python tradition, like although
they were no, they weren't exactly they were not fishy
at all. But uh, we'll get to that that's actually
a thing. Yeah, fishy drag. Yeah, um, well you might
(07:17):
as well tell him. Well, I already mentioned it earlier.
I said I'm more fishy than yeah, but I don't
think they understand. Fishy is going after like the like
you want people to confuse you for a woman exactly,
like as feminine, as like womanly as possible, as like
dead on right. Yeah, and then campy is obviously more
for comedy. You're more masculine looking. And then there's of
(07:38):
course the glamour drag, which is huge hair and everyone's
eyelashes and glittery dresses. So back to history though, interestingly,
when the West was um loosening restrictions in Japan and
the East, they were tightening them and making men once
again play the uh onagatta roles. Female impersonators in kabuki productions.
(08:01):
They're like the ladies cannot do kab any longer. Yeah,
and that lasted through the nineteenth century in Japan. Yeah,
so it's weird. No, it was like, I guess, if
you're a woman, you could have been in Japan, and
then when they closed it down in Japan, you could
have gone over to England. Bam, I guess, so you're
all set traveling performer. Um so in in the West
(08:23):
in England in particular, that whole uh King Charles, the
second bluff that was called where that became eventually the
idea that if you were dressing in drag on stage, um,
it was for laughs. You weren't trying to pull off
being a woman. You're trying to just make fun of
the juxtaposition of you big burly dude wearing a dress
(08:45):
and acting as a woman but not doing a very
good job of it. That gave rise to a type
of theater called pantomime, and it is the shortened term
of it is panto, And I guess mime is the
other half what came out of this. But panto theater
is like a big burly dudes and drag playing the
women and then a woman playing like a young male
(09:06):
who's now being um inducted into the world of sex
and the adults, you know. Yeah, yeah, And I think
the first pano play was from see right. Yeah. It
started out there and then spread over to the United
States in the form of uh, you know, before movie
theaters and things like that, America's favorite entertainment was when
(09:29):
the vaudeville show came through. Sometimes that was your only
entertainment that are, like shooting at things in your yard.
So it was their favorite and also their most hated
form of entertainment because that was it. So the Vaudefield
Act would roll through town and there would uh, you know,
they'll be all kinds of theater and weird performances and
jugglers and ventriloquists and acrobats and things like that, ban
(09:50):
Joe's and then actually drag performances to the delight of
families and children, and it was all seen as just
good fun. There was no um linked to homosexuality at
the time. At the at the least, America wasn't putting
its hang ups about homosexuality onto drag performances. Yeah. Well,
(10:11):
then that really came about at the turn of the century.
That's when people got a little more like, hey, what's
going on here? As as gay people came out of
the close a little bit more and into the forefront
a little bit more, and we mean in very small steps. Obviously,
back then people like, well, wait a minute, when when
was this guy's dressing up like ladies all of a sudden, right,
it was just fun? Or is this like wrong? Right?
(10:33):
You like this to right? And because of prohibition, uh,
people needed their little speakeasies, their little secret places to
go drink. It also birthed secret places for gay dudes
to go hang out. Yeah, they we created the first
gay bars initially, right, which ultimately, in turn about forty
years later started to give rise to the first discos.
(10:54):
Remember that they grew out a gay bars um and
there the New York, Chicago, big towns, probably Kansas City
at the time. San Francisco went through what was called
a pansy craze not our term um and where basically
it became like the era of the gay man coming
out of the closet, Like, there are lots of bars
(11:15):
to go to, there are lots of nightclubs. There was
like the first gay culture in the United States really
started to come about. Yeah, and I remember I've read
somewhere that um, cocaine used to be a gay drug. Yeah,
they called it um. I'm sorry to say that they
used to call cocaine fairy dust because it was so
favored by gay guys around this time. Um, because I
(11:38):
guess you could get it legally. When was this in
like the fifties or the twenties, maybe the thirties got
yeah interesting. Uh So by the nineteen fifties, this is when, uh,
there were actual laws against being gay and laws against
dressing as a woman, and in fact, in New York City,
(11:59):
which you would think would be super forward thinking. Uh,
in the nineteen fifties, they had a cross dressing law,
or I guess anti cross dressing law that said that you,
as a man, were legally bound to where no fewer
than three pieces of male clothing in order to not
be arrested for being in drag. Right, And this is
a problem for these gay bars because they frequently had
(12:20):
drag shows. Um, so I guess I was thinking, like
you just maybe do like a like a full on
full circle cross dress where you dress as a woman,
dressing as a man as as a woman. Victor Victoria,
he just blew my mind that was Victor of Victoria.
(12:41):
That was the movie, right, and with Julie Andrews, it
was a woman impersonating a man impersonating a woman. I
thought that was Burt Reynolds's Julie Andrews. She did a
really good job. You're thinking of deliverance, Yeah, yeah, that
went way different. So. Um, by the time the nineteen
(13:05):
sixties mid sixties rolled around, there's a congress sites a
book called mother Camp where they estimated about five hundred
regularly performing drag queens by the by nine. Yeah, it's
pretty pretty high number for back then. Yeah, I would imagine,
although I'm sure it's quite a lot more than that now.
(13:27):
But we're talking the sixties and this is a time
when if you were at a gay bar just being
dressed in drag like, there was a pretty high likelihood
the cops are gonna come busting down the door and
take you to jail and probably beat you up for
being gay. Um. So, yeah, five hundred performing out in
the open is I would imagine that's a pretty good number.
(13:47):
But at the time there were newer performance that like
Eltnge wanted this. This one guy Bailey, Jim Bailey, who
apparently did a spot on Judy Garland, and he was
very adamant about saying, no, I'm not a cross stressor
I'm not a drag queen. I am a female impersonator.
(14:09):
And he, you know, had a long run in the
business as such. It was a big distinction for him. Yeah,
he yeah, he wanted to be called an illusionist. And
that makes the point that I think he said earlier.
Not everyone who does drag is gay, and not everyone
who does drag cross dresses in um their off stage life.
(14:30):
But for the most part, if you're gonna put money
on whether or not a drag queen is is gay,
you can probably bet that they probably are under normal circumstances. Yeah,
I don't think we even mentioned the drag queen where
that came from? The term, Oh no, we did. That
would have been good in the intro. It would have
been let's do it here, well, when we were talking
about theater, it would have been a good one. All right.
(14:51):
So the term drag what was the original parlance for
men dressing in women's clothing? And I didn't see the
theater term. Yeah, theater term, But I don't know where
that came from, though I don't either okay, and then queen,
of course is a is a you know, slur, a
slur for an effeminate gay man, a drag queen put together.
(15:13):
You just got the term drag queen. That's right, So
it's underground. Oh and also we should say transvestite, transsexual
not really favored terms in the gay community, especially these
days because uh, you know, up until not that long
ago in the d s M and possibly still listed
in the d s M, those are mental disorders. People
(15:35):
who do that are mentally ill according to psychology, which
is fairly ridiculous. We should encourage people to go listen
to our what do we call that one? Gender reassignment,
gender reassignment. How's a good one. That's a really good one. Um. So,
in the nineteen sixties things start coming out, people start
coming out, drag queens start becoming more visible. And then
(15:57):
of course in ninety nine, I know, we've promised this
podcast will do it at some point. The famous Stonewall
riots took place where in June New York City police
rated the stone Wall in which was run by the
mafia at the time, and it was New York's only
gay bar run by the mafia. Yeah. Interesting, um, and
(16:17):
they fought back, and there was a six day basically
riot fight going on between cops and these gay guys.
They just said, you know what, we made dress like ladies,
but we fight like dudes. That's right, We're not gonna
take it. So pretty much from there, the gay rights
movement in the US was born. And not even pretty
much like, yeah, it happened right there, but Conger kind
(16:40):
of describes the scene that, um, it was a six
days skirmish with high heel wearing drag queens. Um. But
you can imagine that that probably was quite a scene,
quite a tableau. Yeah, they should do a movie about that.
They did, so they did. I can't remember what's called
the documentary documentary. I'm sure there's a bunch of there's
one before stone Wall or after stone Wall, maybe the
(17:03):
stone Wall during Stonewall, Perry Stonewall. Um. So, in the
mid nineteen sixties when all this is blossoming, guy named
Jose Julio Saudia Uh in San Francisco. He was Harvey
Milk was not the first openly gay political candidate in
San Francisco. It was actually sorry and he founded something
(17:23):
called the Imperial Court System. UH and it was basically
a drag community organization to help people out and throw
drag balls. And you know now is philanthropic with HIV
and AIDS organizations. So they're still around. Yeah, they're bigger
(17:44):
than ever. Chapters all over the place, all over the place,
different countries, Canada, Mexico. Yeah, but the the Imperial Court
System was a really big step. Um. This was in
the mid sixties. I think it was before stone Wall, right, yeah,
I think so. Um. And this is in the face
of like crackdowns, getting arrested, getting beat up, really being mistreated,
(18:05):
um and and not having any civil rights. This guy
forms the Imperial Court System and it's like one of
the first big steps that unifying not just the drag
community but the gay community and really kind of provided
this this basis of this template for you know, integration
and support with among gays around the country. And I
(18:25):
guess a way to say, hey, there's a lot of
other people over here that feel the same way you
do and think the same way you do. And it's
not just here in San Francisco, is not just here
in New York. They're all over the place. And this
was one of the first cohesions of that mentality right,
which is a big, big deal. It was, and the
drag balls that they UM initiated and started became very
(18:46):
popular within the African American drag community and these days.
Um Conger described it as like a fraternity system where
if you're an up and comer and you're a drag queen,
you can get sort of like a sponsor. Am they
were a father to help you out, show you the ropes.
Maybe if you were kicked out of your house by
your parents because you're not accepted or out of your hometown,
(19:08):
they'll put you up and find you a place to live.
And you know who else does that? Cindy law her
does she really? Yeah? She? Uh, I think founded and
definitely funds like some sort of rescue system at Halfway House. Yeah,
for teens who are kicked out for being gay. Nice,
isn't that? Yeah? She's awesome. I think I told you
to her Halloween party one year in New York. You
(19:29):
did not tell me that? Yeah, my friend was. Um
is a huge fan and like on the inside as
far as fandom, you know, like she knows who he
is and uh, he got an invitation to her Halloween
party at her loft in New York and I went
and it was awesome and I met her and got
a picture made and that was cool. She was as
sweet as she could be. Yeah. Yeah, she seems like
(19:51):
she's like living the personality. Yeah, and boy what a
party man, I can imagine. Yeah. A couple of years
ago and Dr John opened for so we were there
for you know, the Dr John Show too, And when
Dr John ended, like everyone got up and left and
then new people came in and sat down for the
(20:12):
Cyndy Lawbers Show. Yeah, it was a weird mix, but
that didn't end up mixing. That's like, uh, it was
cool see both of them, Uh, like Zach Brown opening
for Dolly Parton, Yeah, something like that. Maybe even maybe
even weird, like they're both country quote unquote right. All right,
So if you're interested in seeing more about the African
(20:33):
American drag balls, there's a great documentary, uh called Paris
Is Burning. Have you seen it? Yeah, I've not seen
a super entertaining, really good We mentioned drag kings earlier.
That is a thing when they can also dress his men, yeah,
which is not a stretch. Once drag queens were established,
a guy named Johnny science about what about drag kings
(20:53):
and bam, there they are. That's right, So let's talk
about what you need to do, what kind of transformation
needs to take place. I know we kind of hinted
at it earlier with our jokes about tucking and plucking,
but that's where it starts. And we remarked about your hands. Um,
Julian Eltinge was, um, you'd think, you know, all the
(21:15):
work goes on the face, but he said, the most
important thing is the hands. Well that was the one
that he worried about the most. Well you remember that
seinfeld Man hands. Yeah, well, I mean that makes I
can imagine it's very distracting if you have a couple
of chunks of ham. Yeah, you know, and you're acting
very feminine or whatever. That's weird. Yeah. They went so
over the top in that episode. How big is like
(21:36):
I'm sure it was like the key grip or something,
breaking the bread and stuff in your face. Yeah, so good. Um,
so all right, so what do you do? You gotta
get the hands powdered, and he said there's certain ways
of holding them to make them appear to be more dainty.
Well he did. I got the impression that he was
particularly obsessed about this, but he might have big hands.
(21:59):
Spend like an hour and a half just working on
the hands. That's just the hands. So you can you
can guess how long it takes to like do makeup,
because not only are you doing makeup, you have to
do it right, but you have to do it to
cover up the fact that you're a man. So you
have to like cover up the fact that you're a
man and then do the makeup as a woman. I imagine. Yeah,
(22:19):
And I think things really picked up in the seventies
with this as far as really going all out. After
um San Francisco UH drag show collective called the Cockettes.
Apparently they put on a not so great show, and
gore Vidal himself said famously in his review, no talent
is not enough. So he's like, great, you're drag queens,
(22:41):
but this is awful. Basically you still gotta like give
the audience something. Well. They were also not necessarily like
real drag queens. They were a bunch of hippies on
acid and they basically did their own pretty much improv
musical that sucked, but the fact that they were doing
it in drag made real the real drag community and
(23:03):
I may be wrong, but I have the impression they
weren't like representative the real dragon. Whoa this can like
people are paying attention and people want like a good show,
So let's give it to him. Give some talent. Yeah,
and that So that show, that Cockette show was like
kind of a turning point as far as like, let's
do this right. If you're gonna dress up like a woman,
do it right. Yeah. And if you've ever been you
(23:25):
ever been to a drag show, I've seen him before you.
I've been to a few, and I've been to someones
that were great, and I've been to someone's that sucked.
And it's like any other theatrical experience. It's it's like
it makes a huge difference. If it's bad, it's real bad,
you know. Yeah, I mean it's the same. It's like
it's the same like watching improv or whatever. Like if
(23:47):
you see people who are really good at improv and
then you see people who are just trying improv, you
can't even put in the same thing. It's like it's
like Dolly Partners at Brown all right. So in order
to kick it up a notch, they had to start
taking more care with their appearance. And the first step
if you're interested in giving this a shot and you're dude,
(24:08):
is to shave. That's a pretty good first step if
you're going yeah, yeah, as close as you can get.
If you're doing camping, you might not necessarily have to shave. Yeah,
that's true. Like I could get up there with my
beard and be thoroughly disgusting as a woman, just kind
of hump there without moving your arms. Um. The next
(24:33):
thing you need to do is you need to apply
lots and lots of makeup and a traditionally a tradition
called beating your face or beating your mug, and that's
what they call it in the in the drag community.
That's really like a lot of cosmetics you want to hide,
like heavy jawlines and stuff like that, and just slather
(24:55):
it on. Basically, the more the better, depending on what
you're going for, of course. Well yeah, I mean, if
you're going like real feminine, you gotta be careful. You
can just take it on, you have to take some skill.
I would think that's right. Um. And then the tuck. Yeah,
the tuck. We talked about the gaff. You can also
use tape. Um, I guess you could also talk if
you're just gonna walk like a penguin or whatever all night, yeah,
(25:18):
or like Buffalo Bill right yeah, or um I think
a scary movie too. When one of the Wayne's brothers, like,
there's a shot of like the waist up, he's like,
he has his arms out like he's showing off a short.
He's like, what do you guys think, tucked or untucked?
And then they pan out tucked. That's just likes pressingge ey.
But it's like, um on tucked. I didn't see those movies.
(25:39):
That sounds funny though, Oh those were surprisingly funny. Yeah,
I like the Spoop movie. I just sort of grew
out of him after Airplane and and uh, the Naked
Gun movies. I didn't really see a whole lot of
them after that. They're good, um, at least the first four.
So after you've done your tucking and you're taping and
you're all fit down there, um, you might want to
(26:02):
add some breasts. It's probably a pretty good idea. You
can add silicone all those they can be expensive. And
I'm not talking about implants, talking about a silicone implant
that you would like put in a brazier, right, or
there's ones that adhere to your body and like like
your body temperature adheres them to your body and they're
really well that's what this article says. I don't know,
(26:24):
it's not like I'm in the fake breasts. I didn't
notice that part that sounds gross. Yeah, she's saying. Congress
says that, like these things are like a couple of
hundred dollars for like the really good ones that are
really realistic. So I imagine again, if you're going fishy,
it probably just it takes a lot more time, a
lot more effort, and a lot more money to to
(26:46):
be a fishy drag queen, I would say, So it's
a lot easier just to you know, be campy and
look funny and uh. And then of course the name
is a big, big part of the culture. Um generally
the names are it's sort of like Art Simpson's prank calls,
you know, like uh, Amanda hugging kiss. Yeah, exactly. Most
of the names are like that. Um let us yea
(27:09):
head to let us. I looked up some some of
my favorites Madam Ovary, good one, uh, Jean Pool, and
a lot of obviously a lot of times too it's
toying with the fact of the gender and stuff like that. Uh,
Wilma balls Drop, good Lord tests tossedone and uh then
(27:33):
a nice clean one for everyone out there, Della Coateessen.
That's nice. Those are just a few of the funny ones.
That's like a throwback to the vaudeville and drag drag
shows were family friendly. That's right, good clean point um
still get clean fun delicates Wilma balls Drop. But the
name is a big part of it. You know, coming
up with a great name can really like that just
(27:55):
kicks it off, right, because when you're announced, if it's
a great name, the audiences tickled from the very beginning.
If it's a bad name, they're like, oh God, what's
this gonna be? Right? Yeah, so what are you doing
this for? Chuck? Well, there's all different kinds of things. Um,
A regular drag performance that I've been to is either
lip sinking or actually performing like karaoke style on stage,
(28:15):
one after another, and there's usually an m C and
drag handling the whole show, right, and it's basically like
just you know, stage performance singing. But they can also
like get real gigs well yeah, or um being I
guess kind of a party promoter, just kind of circulating
around a party, like keeping everything light. What's more fun
(28:36):
than hiring a drag queen to come to your party
and just kind of lighting things up. I think that's
a great idea, you know. Yeah, As Rue Paul said,
the whole point is to not take life too seriously exactly.
So when you have somebody dress as a woman not
taking life too seriously, your guests are probably going to
lighten up a little bit too. If you have like
somebody wandering around saying I'm head a lettuce, right, you know? Yeah? Yeah, um.
(29:00):
And then we can't not mention Australia because for some reason,
even though Australia is the center of masculinity on the planet,
it's rife with drag queens thanks to a particular movie.
Is it because of that or was that already a
thing and they just highlighted that. I wonder I took
it that it was the that the movie was its
(29:22):
own thing, just created this huge cult following that has
basically put Australia on the map. Priscilla Queen of the Desert,
of course, is the movie. Yeah but you've seen right, Yeah, yeah,
it's a good movie. Yeah, very good movie. And I
can't I've seen parts of like too Wong food, Thanks
for everything to I never saw that one. Something about Swayzy.
I just couldn't get sway Wesley Snipes. Yeah, like Guy Piers,
(29:44):
perfect swazy, Holy cow. Guy Pierce is one of the
ones in Psilic Queen of the Desert. I didn't know that.
Who was anybody else that is the star? Now? Well? Yeah,
it was definitely Guy Piers and Hugo Weaving from The Matrix,
Oh yeah wow Mr Anderson, Yeah, actually he was a
Mr Anderson, he was whatever his name was. And then
Terence Stamp of course, a legendary Terence Stamp. And it
(30:06):
was the Adventures of Priscilla, Queen in the Desert. So
if you're looking for it on Netflix or whatever, you
should watch it. It's a fun movie. And Terence Stamp
and dragons like that's something else. He's the LIMI you know, right.
So ultimately, what you're trying to do is get a
job in a movie about drag queens or to become RuPaul.
That's true. And they have apparently a show last year
(30:28):
in Australia reality show where they're drag queens are taking
that same journey that they did in the movie, and
it's on TV now apparently, though there's not a lot
of money. I think you do it for the love,
for the adoration. Of course, there was a study of
drag queens down in Key West, which is like drag
Queens Central. If you've ever watched CNN's New Year's Eve broadcast,
(30:52):
it's like all drag queens down there. It's crazy. Yeah,
and then they dropped like a drag queen in a
giant high heel, I think is what they do really
instead of like that they um. But they did a
study of drag queen's down in Key West and they
they averaged about two hundred bucks a week. So they're
doing it for the love. People tip them. Yeah, and
I think probably every drag queen out there spends way
(31:14):
more money than they're making, you know, hosting and doing
gigs like that. So we mentioned Rue Paul, Yeah, we
did not mention May West. No, Well, she apparently took
a She based her character or her persona on a
drag queen named Bert Savoy Okay born Everett Mackenzie. So
(31:38):
that's weird. Here's drag queen, but he changed his name
to another male name. Anyway. Um, he had a very
familiar catchphrase, you must come over, and she took that
and turned it into come up some time and see
me and people out there going no jokes, just noted
it's why don't you come up and see me sometime? Yeah,
you're wrong. Yeah, that's a misquote. Yeah. And similarly, Eastwood
(32:00):
based his throaty voice on Marilyn Monroe. Shut up, swear
to god, what do you mean his throaty voice? He
based it on her. He didn't really talk like that.
He that's like he talked like the generic teenage cash
here from the Simpsons. No, he he said, as far
(32:23):
as Uncle John's bathroom reader, his voice on Marilyn Monroe.
Yeah that he said that crazy. All right, Should we
mention a few of these famous drag queens. Yes, Danny LaRue.
If you're in England and you're not into Eddie Wizard,
then Danny LaRue is probably your guy, or at least
until two thousand nine when he sadly passed away. Yeah,
(32:43):
but he was big back in the day and like
the fifties, sixties, seventies, Yeah, Yeah, earned a lot of money.
Doris Fish neither Australian huh um, who moved to San
Francisco and wrote and starred in the film Vegas and Space.
Have you seen that of you? Cult film? Apparently not
about cults. It's just like has a cult following. Uh
(33:07):
and sadly he died of aids in Divine of Course.
Anyone who's a John Waters fan, or should we say
a Harris Millstead fan? I didn't know that wasn't his
real name, Harris Glenn Milstead. I didn't either, Um. Divine
was John Waters one of his favorite people to put
in his films and did some kind of gross things
(33:27):
in earlier movies like Pink Flamingos. What what did she
do with dog poop? I ate it? I believe I'm
not mistaken. But Divine of course made her biggest role
in Hair Spray as Edna Turnball turned Blad and that's
who Chon Travolta played in the musical version. I didn't
know that. Did you ever see it? No? It's an abomination?
(33:49):
Is it? Really? It's pretty bad? Where did you see it?
It's a movie, you know? Oh? Yeah? They did Hair
Spray on Broadway and then they turned the Broadway show
into a musical and bold to start in the movie
version of the musical. Okay, but wait where did Divine
star in the movie? Right? Hairspray the original Hairspray before
(34:10):
it was a Broadway music So they did a movie,
turned it into a musical, and then turned the musical
into a movie. Yes, and his mind bending very much.
There's Dame Edna. Not a fan? Oh no, now are
you thought she was pleasant? Uh? Yeah, I'm not a
big fan, but that is definitely one of the more
famous and I think who played him, Barry Humphreys, another Australian. Yeah,
(34:34):
but wasn't he also keen to say like I'm not
a drag queen. Yeah, she was a character that he
played and he didn't consider it like drag um. And
she's retired wolf all right, I just showed Josh a
pig Church revolta in that movie. She's uh, why had
stopped that? She's she's retired As of two twelve, there's
(34:57):
Dame Edna has moved off to Florida. I guess, all right,
anyone else Lady Bunny, who's Lady Bunny? Lady Bunny is
uh Jill of all trades Congress, says a multi talented comedian,
DJ and actress. She um founded Wigstock. Oh I've heard
a wig Stock. See here's a picture of Lady Bunny
(35:17):
and she's got a huge wig, which is awesome. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no Wigstock's and Wigstock is no longer either. That ran
for about a decade I'm sorry, two decades. Five Yeah,
right on the nose. So that's drag queens. Go see
a drag show if you've never done. If you're visiting
New York in the big city, you've never been, and
you're from oh, I don't know, Kansas. You don't even
(35:40):
know you're going to New York. Man, Like, sure, the
drag show I went to is in Savannah. That's a
huge dragtown. Yeah yeah, yeah, but I'm just staying. If
you're busy, if you're visiting the big city for the
first time, go check out a drag show. Be open minded,
have some fun, have a drink, and it's it's a
good time. Yeah. I mean, that's why we didn't really
describe them much, because you kind of got to see
(36:02):
him for yourself. Well, and you never know what you're
gonna get. It could be terrible or it could be
great exactly. Yeah. Uh. If you want to learn more
about drag queens, you can type those words into the
search bar at how stuff works dot com. And uh,
since I said drag queens, that means it's time for
a message break. Now it's time for listening. Now good,
(36:26):
because we're actually going to give advice to this kid. Okay,
it should be good good advice or I don't know,
we'll see. I think we should just wing it. Hey,
guys and Jerry. First off, I'm a huge fan and
um about to graduate after five long years at the
University of Washington in Seattle. Go Huskers, Huskies. Yeah. Um.
(36:47):
Instead of getting a degree in something practical that would
set me up for a great job like business or engineering,
I follow my interest, which I think is great by
the way, and I will be getting a b A
in Spanish and a b s. In astronomy and physics.
That being said, guys, I'm about to graduate in five
weeks and I really have nothing lined up for When
I entered the quote real world, can you send me
some money. I know I want to go back to
(37:10):
school eventually for something involving education, but I was curious
if you have any suggestions or advice of what I
should do in the meantime, I'm a little stressed about it,
to be honest, So I thought I would turn to
the duo that never leads me astray. And this is
owen Ah and he says it's pronounced something like capus.
I want to say, owen capis, but it just felt
(37:30):
this has got a lot of consonants in it. Let
me see. Jeez, Yeah, so that's kepis apparently, so owen
um advice. Of course. The first thing I'm gonna say
is travel, and probably Josh too, because it's always good
after you finish college to get out there and see
a little bit of the world, because it might inform
your decisions in life. You might open you up to
(37:51):
something you might want to do. I have some job advice, okay,
I would say, just like college, follow you or passions.
So if you find if you think about it, like wow,
I really really am hardcore into Spanish, figure out something
to use that, some way to use that. Or astronomy.
(38:12):
It's pretty narrow use of that, but you never know,
like if you, uh, there could be a company out
there that loves employing astronomers. Just has him sit around
all day in about astronomy. If he's into education, eventually
you could go get a job at a science center. Yeah,
and uh work with a big telescope and a planetarium
and to like and entertain school children. But if you're
(38:36):
studying Spain, dude, and you have some time Spanish, I
would say, go to Spain. Sure, get a ticket, go
to Spain. Check things out. Falling love might decide on
a job. You might just eat some good pie and
have a good time and go home and be broke.
I say, get a job, hippie, but make sure it's
a job you love. Yeah. I mean that's the point
(38:58):
to me. It's like that's what we both did. We
figured out what we loved and wed hard laid them
into jobs. You know, yeah later in life as well.
So kids, you don't have to um, you don't have
to have it all locked down right after graduation. Yeah.
And also Owen. One thing that I've learned is that
you don't you almost never use the actual degree that
you major the like, it's almost never applied to the
(39:21):
actual job you get. I don't know, I'll think about this.
I'm an English major, right, I was a history major.
That's nothing to do with my job at the time,
hired as writers. Right, yeah, okay, I see your point.
But so like, there was a guy I can't remember
who was the NBC chief that Seinfeld used to like mock.
(39:43):
He actually um became like a character when they were
trying to sell the TV fell in love with Elane.
That's a real guy. And he actually was like the
head of NBC for a while. Yeah, and like NBC's
hey day, he did a beautiful job of like picking
shows and stick him with them and steering him. And
that was when NBC was dominating. He had a degree
in psychology that had nothing to do with it. Yeah,
(40:05):
but don't you think psychology helped him with dealing with
you know, high powered people And no, I'll tell you what.
What did it? He was doing what he loved and
hence what he was good at. And if you do
that you will always succeed. Well, you know what, unless
you're a philosophy major. You sold me all right, So
(40:26):
that was from Owen. Thanks for that. You're awesome. Let
us know what you do. Like follow up, I'd like
to know, Owen. Yeah, if you go to Spain, they'd
like to hear about it. Or if you get a job,
I want to hear about it. All right, how old
is he? H? Five years so it's probably like three yeah,
probably somewhere in there. Whatever you do, Owen, good luck.
(40:48):
But if he's like he didn't be failed to mention
that I got a late start. I worked in a
factory for twenty years. You don't go travels Spain. Yes, uh,
if you want some advice for me and Chuck Man,
it's gonna open a floodgate, I think, Chuck Sure. You
can tweet short questions to us s y s K podcast.
(41:09):
You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff
you Should Know, You can send us an email to
stuff podcasts to discovery dot com, and you can always
go check out our website for answers and has all
of them. That's Stuff you Should Know dot com. For
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit House
(41:30):
Stuff Works dot com. This podcast is brought to you
by B A. S F. The chemical company h
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know front of House, Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Uh, and this
is stuff you should Know. Chucks Chant just a couple
(00:22):
of drag queens hanging out and chop. We should say
Chuck and I are both in full drag right now.
That's right. Uh, you did a nice job with the
the hair, the wig. I like, thank you. You find
it big. You know you can't get too big if
you're a drag queen. I'm a little more fishy than glamour.
The lashes are nice, and I noticed, keeping with the
(00:43):
tradition set by Julian Eltinge, your hands are quite feminine.
Oh well, I'm holding them in a very feminine manner.
Well done. Thank you. There powdered just right. The knuckles
aren't his hair easy usual? And I like your campy drag.
Thank you. I had no idea that your forearms are
so big and that you had an anchor tattoo. That's right.
(01:04):
And if you notice my crotch, ah, you won't notice
anything smooth as a ken doll. That's right. It's taped
and tucked. You're wearing a gaff a, so that's really
all you need to know. I went online and I
looked up how to how to make a gaff or gaffs.
I was like, I think I understand what this is,
but I need to find out. And I saw a
(01:26):
YouTube tutorial by a drag queen how to make one
out of um, like an underwear waist band, like an
elastic band and a tube sock cut on either end
so it's open okay, and you just slide the tube
sock or no, you slide the elastic band through the
open tube sock and uh step into the elastic band,
(01:48):
right because it makes two holes that way sure for
your legs. And then I guess it's everything gets real compressed. Well, uh,
that's great. I used duct tape. It's a little more uncomfortable.
I'm going to use your method for them for that
video too, But yeah, it looked like it looked cheap, easy, quick,
and as comfortable as that kind of thing can be.
(02:10):
So people, if you were not one that reads titles
to podcasts and you just say, you know, I'm and
just hear what's going on, we're talking about drag queens
and it has an interesting history and it's an interesting culture,
and we like to cover those things. So let's do it. Uh, well,
this is a Conger article, Yes, Kristen Conger from stuff
Mom Never told You. Yeah, and she did a really
(02:31):
good job, like kind of tracing the history and like
really getting into the culture of of drag queens. And um,
it turns out that there is a considered father of
drag queens, although he went to great pains to um
suggests that he wasn't gay. That's because he was totally gay.
I think so, Like I noticed she used the she
(02:52):
pointed out that he's a bachelor. Yeah. I looked up
more on that. It was often rumored that he were
talking about who he mentioned earlier with the hands do
Lean Eltinge Lteinge and uh born William Dalton. And this
is early twentieth century. And he made a big, big
name for himself dressing like a lady. Yeah, performing in vaudeville. Um.
(03:16):
He started out, I guess as a Vouldville performer, but
then he he was in a play called The Fascinating
Widow in nineteen eleven. Apparently the ladies loved him, loved
his drag because he was just really good at it.
And um, from there he ended up with he ended
up on screen in films, sponsorship deals. Yeah, he apparently
(03:37):
was the highest salaried performer of his age. Um, there
were fan magazines dedicated to him and like dressing up
as women zines, multiple znes Yeah, at least three. Um
and uh. He performed for King Edward the Seventh of
the UK. He was delighted by his performance. So this
(03:58):
guy Julian elt just like making quite a name for himself.
And and again he he went to great links to
be like, look at me, I'm a guy. See I'm
smoking cigars and I'm fishing. Yeah, but i'd like, I said,
I looked into it more. And apparently he would. Um,
he would attack people in the audience sometimes when they
would yell out derogatory terms about his masculinity, and he
(04:21):
would challenge people to fights and things. And he was
a lifelong batchelor. So I think that probably meant that
he was gay, right, which is fine because as a
cross dresser, you can be gay or straight, doesn't matter.
You might transgender, doesn't matter. Yeah, they're all different stripes
of people who like to put on the opposite clothes
of whatever their gender is, because they are kings as
(04:41):
well and perform on stage. It's just you know, it's fun.
It's a lighthearted, fun thing, right. Well, that's the whole
point of it. It's supposed to be lighthearted and fun.
It wasn't always though, Um. There was a very long
period where when men dressed up as women on stage.
It was because women weren't allowed to perform on stage,
(05:03):
so men were frequently like doing this, uh, straight, very
seriously in dramas um in Greece. In ancient Greece, it
was considered dangerous for women to be on stage, and
they were not allowed to be in any of the
Greek dramas, which kind of ironic because the Greek theater
arose out of the Rites of Dionysus, which were performed
(05:24):
almost exclusively by women. And then but once it was
established a theater, the member like, thank you for bringing
this to our attention. No go over there because it's
too dangerous here right, very interesting, uh. And in the
Middle Ages, of course, um, the Christian Church chimed in
and said, you know what, here's what theater is. It is, um,
Bible stories on stage in church church pageants, basically, it's like, oh,
(05:48):
you used to like the theater, We'll get a load
of this because this is what it is now. Yeah,
and women were not allowed to take part in that.
Of course, men would play the parts of women. Uh.
And it wasn't until the seventeenth century and read that
women finally uh the stage opened up and they were
allowed to tread the boards. Yeah if uh. In Shakespeare's era,
um men played both roles. And I think what was
(06:11):
it sixteen sixty that one of the kings in England,
Charles two, Yeah, that sequel. He said, you know what,
let's let the ladies back on stage. But even after that,
this idea of men dressing up as women still continued on.
And women are actually dressing as men and what they
called breaches roles, but they were breaches. They's pretty straightforward terminology.
(06:35):
But King Charles called the bluff of all the performers.
He was like, you know what, you don't have to
dress his women anymore. We'll just let women on stage.
And the guys were like, but but but we fine,
we really like this. Yeah, And well what happened to
was men started to play women in a in a
funnier way and it was more for comedy because they
(06:57):
wouldn't try to look super feminine. They would try to
look like a big burly man in address, which is
sort of like in the Monty Python tradition, like although
they were no, they weren't exactly they were not fishy
at all. But uh, we'll get to that that's actually
a thing. Yeah, fishy drag. Yeah, um, well you might
(07:17):
as well tell him. Well, I already mentioned it earlier.
I said I'm more fishy than yeah, but I don't
think they understand. Fishy is going after like the like
you want people to confuse you for a woman exactly,
like as feminine, as like womanly as possible, as like
dead on right. Yeah, and then campy is obviously more
for comedy. You're more masculine looking. And then there's of
(07:38):
course the glamour drag, which is huge hair and everyone's
eyelashes and glittery dresses. So back to history though, interestingly,
when the West was um loosening restrictions in Japan and
the East, they were tightening them and making men once
again play the uh onagatta roles. Female impersonators in kabuki productions.
(08:01):
They're like the ladies cannot do kab any longer. Yeah,
and that lasted through the nineteenth century in Japan. Yeah,
so it's weird. No, it was like, I guess, if
you're a woman, you could have been in Japan, and
then when they closed it down in Japan, you could
have gone over to England. Bam, I guess, so you're
all set traveling performer. Um so in in the West
(08:23):
in England in particular, that whole uh King Charles, the
second bluff that was called where that became eventually the
idea that if you were dressing in drag on stage, um,
it was for laughs. You weren't trying to pull off
being a woman. You're trying to just make fun of
the juxtaposition of you big burly dude wearing a dress
(08:45):
and acting as a woman but not doing a very
good job of it. That gave rise to a type
of theater called pantomime, and it is the shortened term
of it is panto, And I guess mime is the
other half what came out of this. But panto theater
is like a big burly dudes and drag playing the
women and then a woman playing like a young male
(09:06):
who's now being um inducted into the world of sex
and the adults, you know. Yeah, yeah, And I think
the first pano play was from see right. Yeah. It
started out there and then spread over to the United
States in the form of uh, you know, before movie
theaters and things like that, America's favorite entertainment was when
(09:29):
the vaudeville show came through. Sometimes that was your only
entertainment that are, like shooting at things in your yard.
So it was their favorite and also their most hated
form of entertainment because that was it. So the Vaudefield
Act would roll through town and there would uh, you know,
they'll be all kinds of theater and weird performances and
jugglers and ventriloquists and acrobats and things like that, ban
(09:50):
Joe's and then actually drag performances to the delight of
families and children, and it was all seen as just
good fun. There was no um linked to homosexuality at
the time. At the at the least, America wasn't putting
its hang ups about homosexuality onto drag performances. Yeah. Well,
(10:11):
then that really came about at the turn of the century.
That's when people got a little more like, hey, what's
going on here? As as gay people came out of
the close a little bit more and into the forefront
a little bit more, and we mean in very small steps. Obviously,
back then people like, well, wait a minute, when when
was this guy's dressing up like ladies all of a sudden, right,
it was just fun? Or is this like wrong? Right?
(10:33):
You like this to right? And because of prohibition, uh,
people needed their little speakeasies, their little secret places to
go drink. It also birthed secret places for gay dudes
to go hang out. Yeah, they we created the first
gay bars initially, right, which ultimately, in turn about forty
years later started to give rise to the first discos.
(10:54):
Remember that they grew out a gay bars um and
there the New York, Chicago, big towns, probably Kansas City
at the time. San Francisco went through what was called
a pansy craze not our term um and where basically
it became like the era of the gay man coming
out of the closet, Like, there are lots of bars
(11:15):
to go to, there are lots of nightclubs. There was
like the first gay culture in the United States really
started to come about. Yeah, and I remember I've read
somewhere that um, cocaine used to be a gay drug. Yeah,
they called it um. I'm sorry to say that they
used to call cocaine fairy dust because it was so
favored by gay guys around this time. Um, because I
(11:38):
guess you could get it legally. When was this in
like the fifties or the twenties, maybe the thirties got
yeah interesting. Uh So by the nineteen fifties, this is when, uh,
there were actual laws against being gay and laws against
dressing as a woman, and in fact, in New York City,
(11:59):
which you would think would be super forward thinking. Uh,
in the nineteen fifties, they had a cross dressing law,
or I guess anti cross dressing law that said that you,
as a man, were legally bound to where no fewer
than three pieces of male clothing in order to not
be arrested for being in drag. Right, And this is
a problem for these gay bars because they frequently had
(12:20):
drag shows. Um, so I guess I was thinking, like
you just maybe do like a like a full on
full circle cross dress where you dress as a woman,
dressing as a man as as a woman. Victor Victoria,
he just blew my mind that was Victor of Victoria.
(12:41):
That was the movie, right, and with Julie Andrews, it
was a woman impersonating a man impersonating a woman. I
thought that was Burt Reynolds's Julie Andrews. She did a
really good job. You're thinking of deliverance, Yeah, yeah, that
went way different. So. Um, by the time the nineteen
(13:05):
sixties mid sixties rolled around, there's a congress sites a
book called mother Camp where they estimated about five hundred
regularly performing drag queens by the by nine. Yeah, it's
pretty pretty high number for back then. Yeah, I would imagine,
although I'm sure it's quite a lot more than that now.
(13:27):
But we're talking the sixties and this is a time
when if you were at a gay bar just being
dressed in drag like, there was a pretty high likelihood
the cops are gonna come busting down the door and
take you to jail and probably beat you up for
being gay. Um. So, yeah, five hundred performing out in
the open is I would imagine that's a pretty good number.
(13:47):
But at the time there were newer performance that like
Eltnge wanted this. This one guy Bailey, Jim Bailey, who
apparently did a spot on Judy Garland, and he was
very adamant about saying, no, I'm not a cross stressor
I'm not a drag queen. I am a female impersonator.
(14:09):
And he, you know, had a long run in the
business as such. It was a big distinction for him. Yeah,
he yeah, he wanted to be called an illusionist. And
that makes the point that I think he said earlier.
Not everyone who does drag is gay, and not everyone
who does drag cross dresses in um their off stage life.
(14:30):
But for the most part, if you're gonna put money
on whether or not a drag queen is is gay,
you can probably bet that they probably are under normal circumstances. Yeah,
I don't think we even mentioned the drag queen where
that came from? The term, Oh no, we did. That
would have been good in the intro. It would have
been let's do it here, well, when we were talking
about theater, it would have been a good one. All right.
(14:51):
So the term drag what was the original parlance for
men dressing in women's clothing? And I didn't see the
theater term. Yeah, theater term, But I don't know where
that came from, though I don't either okay, and then queen,
of course is a is a you know, slur, a
slur for an effeminate gay man, a drag queen put together.
(15:13):
You just got the term drag queen. That's right, So
it's underground. Oh and also we should say transvestite, transsexual
not really favored terms in the gay community, especially these
days because uh, you know, up until not that long
ago in the d s M and possibly still listed
in the d s M, those are mental disorders. People
(15:35):
who do that are mentally ill according to psychology, which
is fairly ridiculous. We should encourage people to go listen
to our what do we call that one? Gender reassignment,
gender reassignment. How's a good one. That's a really good one. Um. So,
in the nineteen sixties things start coming out, people start
coming out, drag queens start becoming more visible. And then
(15:57):
of course in ninety nine, I know, we've promised this
podcast will do it at some point. The famous Stonewall
riots took place where in June New York City police
rated the stone Wall in which was run by the
mafia at the time, and it was New York's only
gay bar run by the mafia. Yeah. Interesting, um, and
(16:17):
they fought back, and there was a six day basically
riot fight going on between cops and these gay guys.
They just said, you know what, we made dress like ladies,
but we fight like dudes. That's right, We're not gonna
take it. So pretty much from there, the gay rights
movement in the US was born. And not even pretty
much like, yeah, it happened right there, but Conger kind
(16:40):
of describes the scene that, um, it was a six
days skirmish with high heel wearing drag queens. Um. But
you can imagine that that probably was quite a scene,
quite a tableau. Yeah, they should do a movie about that.
They did, so they did. I can't remember what's called
the documentary documentary. I'm sure there's a bunch of there's
one before stone Wall or after stone Wall, maybe the
(17:03):
stone Wall during Stonewall, Perry Stonewall. Um. So, in the
mid nineteen sixties when all this is blossoming, guy named
Jose Julio Saudia Uh in San Francisco. He was Harvey
Milk was not the first openly gay political candidate in
San Francisco. It was actually sorry and he founded something
(17:23):
called the Imperial Court System. UH and it was basically
a drag community organization to help people out and throw
drag balls. And you know now is philanthropic with HIV
and AIDS organizations. So they're still around. Yeah, they're bigger
(17:44):
than ever. Chapters all over the place, all over the place,
different countries, Canada, Mexico. Yeah, but the the Imperial Court
System was a really big step. Um. This was in
the mid sixties. I think it was before stone Wall, right, yeah,
I think so. Um. And this is in the face
of like crackdowns, getting arrested, getting beat up, really being mistreated,
(18:05):
um and and not having any civil rights. This guy
forms the Imperial Court System and it's like one of
the first big steps that unifying not just the drag
community but the gay community and really kind of provided
this this basis of this template for you know, integration
and support with among gays around the country. And I
(18:25):
guess a way to say, hey, there's a lot of
other people over here that feel the same way you
do and think the same way you do. And it's
not just here in San Francisco, is not just here
in New York. They're all over the place. And this
was one of the first cohesions of that mentality right,
which is a big, big deal. It was, and the
drag balls that they UM initiated and started became very
(18:46):
popular within the African American drag community and these days.
Um Conger described it as like a fraternity system where
if you're an up and comer and you're a drag queen,
you can get sort of like a sponsor. Am they
were a father to help you out, show you the ropes.
Maybe if you were kicked out of your house by
your parents because you're not accepted or out of your hometown,
(19:08):
they'll put you up and find you a place to live.
And you know who else does that? Cindy law her
does she really? Yeah? She? Uh, I think founded and
definitely funds like some sort of rescue system at Halfway House. Yeah,
for teens who are kicked out for being gay. Nice,
isn't that? Yeah? She's awesome. I think I told you
to her Halloween party one year in New York. You
(19:29):
did not tell me that? Yeah, my friend was. Um
is a huge fan and like on the inside as
far as fandom, you know, like she knows who he
is and uh, he got an invitation to her Halloween
party at her loft in New York and I went
and it was awesome and I met her and got
a picture made and that was cool. She was as
sweet as she could be. Yeah. Yeah, she seems like
(19:51):
she's like living the personality. Yeah, and boy what a
party man, I can imagine. Yeah. A couple of years
ago and Dr John opened for so we were there
for you know, the Dr John Show too, And when
Dr John ended, like everyone got up and left and
then new people came in and sat down for the
(20:12):
Cyndy Lawbers Show. Yeah, it was a weird mix, but
that didn't end up mixing. That's like, uh, it was
cool see both of them, Uh, like Zach Brown opening
for Dolly Parton, Yeah, something like that. Maybe even maybe
even weird, like they're both country quote unquote right. All right,
So if you're interested in seeing more about the African
(20:33):
American drag balls, there's a great documentary, uh called Paris
Is Burning. Have you seen it? Yeah, I've not seen
a super entertaining, really good We mentioned drag kings earlier.
That is a thing when they can also dress his men, yeah,
which is not a stretch. Once drag queens were established,
a guy named Johnny science about what about drag kings
(20:53):
and bam, there they are. That's right, So let's talk
about what you need to do, what kind of transformation
needs to take place. I know we kind of hinted
at it earlier with our jokes about tucking and plucking,
but that's where it starts. And we remarked about your hands. Um,
Julian Eltinge was, um, you'd think, you know, all the
(21:15):
work goes on the face, but he said, the most
important thing is the hands. Well that was the one
that he worried about the most. Well you remember that
seinfeld Man hands. Yeah, well, I mean that makes I
can imagine it's very distracting if you have a couple
of chunks of ham. Yeah, you know, and you're acting
very feminine or whatever. That's weird. Yeah. They went so
over the top in that episode. How big is like
(21:36):
I'm sure it was like the key grip or something,
breaking the bread and stuff in your face. Yeah, so good. Um,
so all right, so what do you do? You gotta
get the hands powdered, and he said there's certain ways
of holding them to make them appear to be more dainty.
Well he did. I got the impression that he was
particularly obsessed about this, but he might have big hands.
(21:59):
Spend like an hour and a half just working on
the hands. That's just the hands. So you can you
can guess how long it takes to like do makeup,
because not only are you doing makeup, you have to
do it right, but you have to do it to
cover up the fact that you're a man. So you
have to like cover up the fact that you're a
man and then do the makeup as a woman. I imagine. Yeah,
(22:19):
And I think things really picked up in the seventies
with this as far as really going all out. After
um San Francisco UH drag show collective called the Cockettes.
Apparently they put on a not so great show, and
gore Vidal himself said famously in his review, no talent
is not enough. So he's like, great, you're drag queens,
(22:41):
but this is awful. Basically you still gotta like give
the audience something. Well. They were also not necessarily like
real drag queens. They were a bunch of hippies on
acid and they basically did their own pretty much improv
musical that sucked, but the fact that they were doing
it in drag made real the real drag community and
(23:03):
I may be wrong, but I have the impression they
weren't like representative the real dragon. Whoa this can like
people are paying attention and people want like a good show,
So let's give it to him. Give some talent. Yeah,
and that So that show, that Cockette show was like
kind of a turning point as far as like, let's
do this right. If you're gonna dress up like a woman,
do it right. Yeah. And if you've ever been you
(23:25):
ever been to a drag show, I've seen him before you.
I've been to a few, and I've been to someones
that were great, and I've been to someone's that sucked.
And it's like any other theatrical experience. It's it's like
it makes a huge difference. If it's bad, it's real bad,
you know. Yeah, I mean it's the same. It's like
it's the same like watching improv or whatever. Like if
(23:47):
you see people who are really good at improv and
then you see people who are just trying improv, you
can't even put in the same thing. It's like it's
like Dolly Partners at Brown all right. So in order
to kick it up a notch, they had to start
taking more care with their appearance. And the first step
if you're interested in giving this a shot and you're dude,
(24:08):
is to shave. That's a pretty good first step if
you're going yeah, yeah, as close as you can get.
If you're doing camping, you might not necessarily have to shave. Yeah,
that's true. Like I could get up there with my
beard and be thoroughly disgusting as a woman, just kind
of hump there without moving your arms. Um. The next
(24:33):
thing you need to do is you need to apply
lots and lots of makeup and a traditionally a tradition
called beating your face or beating your mug, and that's
what they call it in the in the drag community.
That's really like a lot of cosmetics you want to hide,
like heavy jawlines and stuff like that, and just slather
(24:55):
it on. Basically, the more the better, depending on what
you're going for, of course. Well yeah, I mean, if
you're going like real feminine, you gotta be careful. You
can just take it on, you have to take some skill.
I would think that's right. Um. And then the tuck. Yeah,
the tuck. We talked about the gaff. You can also
use tape. Um, I guess you could also talk if
you're just gonna walk like a penguin or whatever all night, yeah,
(25:18):
or like Buffalo Bill right yeah, or um I think
a scary movie too. When one of the Wayne's brothers, like,
there's a shot of like the waist up, he's like,
he has his arms out like he's showing off a short.
He's like, what do you guys think, tucked or untucked?
And then they pan out tucked. That's just likes pressingge ey.
But it's like, um on tucked. I didn't see those movies.
(25:39):
That sounds funny though, Oh those were surprisingly funny. Yeah,
I like the Spoop movie. I just sort of grew
out of him after Airplane and and uh, the Naked
Gun movies. I didn't really see a whole lot of
them after that. They're good, um, at least the first four.
So after you've done your tucking and you're taping and
you're all fit down there, um, you might want to
(26:02):
add some breasts. It's probably a pretty good idea. You
can add silicone all those they can be expensive. And
I'm not talking about implants, talking about a silicone implant
that you would like put in a brazier, right, or
there's ones that adhere to your body and like like
your body temperature adheres them to your body and they're
really well that's what this article says. I don't know,
(26:24):
it's not like I'm in the fake breasts. I didn't
notice that part that sounds gross. Yeah, she's saying. Congress
says that, like these things are like a couple of
hundred dollars for like the really good ones that are
really realistic. So I imagine again, if you're going fishy,
it probably just it takes a lot more time, a
lot more effort, and a lot more money to to
(26:46):
be a fishy drag queen, I would say, So it's
a lot easier just to you know, be campy and
look funny and uh. And then of course the name
is a big, big part of the culture. Um generally
the names are it's sort of like Art Simpson's prank calls,
you know, like uh, Amanda hugging kiss. Yeah, exactly. Most
of the names are like that. Um let us yea
(27:09):
head to let us. I looked up some some of
my favorites Madam Ovary, good one, uh, Jean Pool, and
a lot of obviously a lot of times too it's
toying with the fact of the gender and stuff like that. Uh,
Wilma balls Drop, good Lord tests tossedone and uh then
(27:33):
a nice clean one for everyone out there, Della Coateessen.
That's nice. Those are just a few of the funny ones.
That's like a throwback to the vaudeville and drag drag
shows were family friendly. That's right, good clean point um
still get clean fun delicates Wilma balls Drop. But the
name is a big part of it. You know, coming
up with a great name can really like that just
(27:55):
kicks it off, right, because when you're announced, if it's
a great name, the audiences tickled from the very beginning.
If it's a bad name, they're like, oh God, what's
this gonna be? Right? Yeah, so what are you doing
this for? Chuck? Well, there's all different kinds of things. Um,
A regular drag performance that I've been to is either
lip sinking or actually performing like karaoke style on stage,
(28:15):
one after another, and there's usually an m C and
drag handling the whole show, right, and it's basically like
just you know, stage performance singing. But they can also
like get real gigs well yeah, or um being I
guess kind of a party promoter, just kind of circulating
around a party, like keeping everything light. What's more fun
(28:36):
than hiring a drag queen to come to your party
and just kind of lighting things up. I think that's
a great idea, you know. Yeah, As Rue Paul said,
the whole point is to not take life too seriously exactly.
So when you have somebody dress as a woman not
taking life too seriously, your guests are probably going to
lighten up a little bit too. If you have like
somebody wandering around saying I'm head a lettuce, right, you know? Yeah? Yeah, um.
(29:00):
And then we can't not mention Australia because for some reason,
even though Australia is the center of masculinity on the planet,
it's rife with drag queens thanks to a particular movie.
Is it because of that or was that already a
thing and they just highlighted that. I wonder I took
it that it was the that the movie was its
(29:22):
own thing, just created this huge cult following that has
basically put Australia on the map. Priscilla Queen of the Desert,
of course, is the movie. Yeah but you've seen right, Yeah, yeah,
it's a good movie. Yeah, very good movie. And I
can't I've seen parts of like too Wong food, Thanks
for everything to I never saw that one. Something about Swayzy.
I just couldn't get sway Wesley Snipes. Yeah, like Guy Piers,
(29:44):
perfect swazy, Holy cow. Guy Pierce is one of the
ones in Psilic Queen of the Desert. I didn't know that.
Who was anybody else that is the star? Now? Well? Yeah,
it was definitely Guy Piers and Hugo Weaving from The Matrix,
Oh yeah wow Mr Anderson, Yeah, actually he was a
Mr Anderson, he was whatever his name was. And then
Terence Stamp of course, a legendary Terence Stamp. And it
(30:06):
was the Adventures of Priscilla, Queen in the Desert. So
if you're looking for it on Netflix or whatever, you
should watch it. It's a fun movie. And Terence Stamp
and dragons like that's something else. He's the LIMI you know, right.
So ultimately, what you're trying to do is get a
job in a movie about drag queens or to become RuPaul.
That's true. And they have apparently a show last year
(30:28):
in Australia reality show where they're drag queens are taking
that same journey that they did in the movie, and
it's on TV now apparently, though there's not a lot
of money. I think you do it for the love,
for the adoration. Of course, there was a study of
drag queens down in Key West, which is like drag
Queens Central. If you've ever watched CNN's New Year's Eve broadcast,
(30:52):
it's like all drag queens down there. It's crazy. Yeah,
and then they dropped like a drag queen in a
giant high heel, I think is what they do really
instead of like that they um. But they did a
study of drag queen's down in Key West and they
they averaged about two hundred bucks a week. So they're
doing it for the love. People tip them. Yeah, and
I think probably every drag queen out there spends way
(31:14):
more money than they're making, you know, hosting and doing
gigs like that. So we mentioned Rue Paul, Yeah, we
did not mention May West. No, Well, she apparently took
a She based her character or her persona on a
drag queen named Bert Savoy Okay born Everett Mackenzie. So
(31:38):
that's weird. Here's drag queen, but he changed his name
to another male name. Anyway. Um, he had a very
familiar catchphrase, you must come over, and she took that
and turned it into come up some time and see
me and people out there going no jokes, just noted
it's why don't you come up and see me sometime? Yeah,
you're wrong. Yeah, that's a misquote. Yeah. And similarly, Eastwood
(32:00):
based his throaty voice on Marilyn Monroe. Shut up, swear
to god, what do you mean his throaty voice? He
based it on her. He didn't really talk like that.
He that's like he talked like the generic teenage cash
here from the Simpsons. No, he he said, as far
(32:23):
as Uncle John's bathroom reader, his voice on Marilyn Monroe.
Yeah that he said that crazy. All right, Should we
mention a few of these famous drag queens. Yes, Danny LaRue.
If you're in England and you're not into Eddie Wizard,
then Danny LaRue is probably your guy, or at least
until two thousand nine when he sadly passed away. Yeah,
(32:43):
but he was big back in the day and like
the fifties, sixties, seventies, Yeah, Yeah, earned a lot of money.
Doris Fish neither Australian huh um, who moved to San
Francisco and wrote and starred in the film Vegas and Space.
Have you seen that of you? Cult film? Apparently not
about cults. It's just like has a cult following. Uh
(33:07):
and sadly he died of aids in Divine of Course.
Anyone who's a John Waters fan, or should we say
a Harris Millstead fan? I didn't know that wasn't his
real name, Harris Glenn Milstead. I didn't either, Um. Divine
was John Waters one of his favorite people to put
in his films and did some kind of gross things
(33:27):
in earlier movies like Pink Flamingos. What what did she
do with dog poop? I ate it? I believe I'm
not mistaken. But Divine of course made her biggest role
in Hair Spray as Edna Turnball turned Blad and that's
who Chon Travolta played in the musical version. I didn't
know that. Did you ever see it? No? It's an abomination?
(33:49):
Is it? Really? It's pretty bad? Where did you see it?
It's a movie, you know? Oh? Yeah? They did Hair
Spray on Broadway and then they turned the Broadway show
into a musical and bold to start in the movie
version of the musical. Okay, but wait where did Divine
star in the movie? Right? Hairspray the original Hairspray before
(34:10):
it was a Broadway music So they did a movie,
turned it into a musical, and then turned the musical
into a movie. Yes, and his mind bending very much.
There's Dame Edna. Not a fan? Oh no, now are
you thought she was pleasant? Uh? Yeah, I'm not a
big fan, but that is definitely one of the more
famous and I think who played him, Barry Humphreys, another Australian. Yeah,
(34:34):
but wasn't he also keen to say like I'm not
a drag queen. Yeah, she was a character that he
played and he didn't consider it like drag um. And
she's retired wolf all right, I just showed Josh a
pig Church revolta in that movie. She's uh, why had
stopped that? She's she's retired As of two twelve, there's
(34:57):
Dame Edna has moved off to Florida. I guess, all right,
anyone else Lady Bunny, who's Lady Bunny? Lady Bunny is
uh Jill of all trades Congress, says a multi talented comedian,
DJ and actress. She um founded Wigstock. Oh I've heard
a wig Stock. See here's a picture of Lady Bunny
(35:17):
and she's got a huge wig, which is awesome. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no Wigstock's and Wigstock is no longer either. That ran
for about a decade I'm sorry, two decades. Five Yeah,
right on the nose. So that's drag queens. Go see
a drag show if you've never done. If you're visiting
New York in the big city, you've never been, and
you're from oh, I don't know, Kansas. You don't even
(35:40):
know you're going to New York. Man, Like, sure, the
drag show I went to is in Savannah. That's a
huge dragtown. Yeah yeah, yeah, but I'm just staying. If
you're busy, if you're visiting the big city for the
first time, go check out a drag show. Be open minded,
have some fun, have a drink, and it's it's a
good time. Yeah. I mean, that's why we didn't really
describe them much, because you kind of got to see
(36:02):
him for yourself. Well, and you never know what you're
gonna get. It could be terrible or it could be
great exactly. Yeah. Uh. If you want to learn more
about drag queens, you can type those words into the
search bar at how stuff works dot com. And uh,
since I said drag queens, that means it's time for
a message break. Now it's time for listening. Now good,
(36:26):
because we're actually going to give advice to this kid. Okay,
it should be good good advice or I don't know,
we'll see. I think we should just wing it. Hey,
guys and Jerry. First off, I'm a huge fan and
um about to graduate after five long years at the
University of Washington in Seattle. Go Huskers, Huskies. Yeah. Um.
(36:47):
Instead of getting a degree in something practical that would
set me up for a great job like business or engineering,
I follow my interest, which I think is great by
the way, and I will be getting a b A
in Spanish and a b s. In astronomy and physics.
That being said, guys, I'm about to graduate in five
weeks and I really have nothing lined up for When
I entered the quote real world, can you send me
some money. I know I want to go back to
(37:10):
school eventually for something involving education, but I was curious
if you have any suggestions or advice of what I
should do in the meantime, I'm a little stressed about it,
to be honest, So I thought I would turn to
the duo that never leads me astray. And this is
owen Ah and he says it's pronounced something like capus.
I want to say, owen capis, but it just felt
(37:30):
this has got a lot of consonants in it. Let
me see. Jeez, Yeah, so that's kepis apparently, so owen
um advice. Of course. The first thing I'm gonna say
is travel, and probably Josh too, because it's always good
after you finish college to get out there and see
a little bit of the world, because it might inform
your decisions in life. You might open you up to
(37:51):
something you might want to do. I have some job advice, okay,
I would say, just like college, follow you or passions.
So if you find if you think about it, like wow,
I really really am hardcore into Spanish, figure out something
to use that, some way to use that. Or astronomy.
(38:12):
It's pretty narrow use of that, but you never know,
like if you, uh, there could be a company out
there that loves employing astronomers. Just has him sit around
all day in about astronomy. If he's into education, eventually
you could go get a job at a science center. Yeah,
and uh work with a big telescope and a planetarium
and to like and entertain school children. But if you're
(38:36):
studying Spain, dude, and you have some time Spanish, I
would say, go to Spain. Sure, get a ticket, go
to Spain. Check things out. Falling love might decide on
a job. You might just eat some good pie and
have a good time and go home and be broke.
I say, get a job, hippie, but make sure it's
a job you love. Yeah. I mean that's the point
(38:58):
to me. It's like that's what we both did. We
figured out what we loved and wed hard laid them
into jobs. You know, yeah later in life as well.
So kids, you don't have to um, you don't have
to have it all locked down right after graduation. Yeah.
And also Owen. One thing that I've learned is that
you don't you almost never use the actual degree that
you major the like, it's almost never applied to the
(39:21):
actual job you get. I don't know, I'll think about this.
I'm an English major, right, I was a history major.
That's nothing to do with my job at the time,
hired as writers. Right, yeah, okay, I see your point.
But so like, there was a guy I can't remember
who was the NBC chief that Seinfeld used to like mock.
(39:43):
He actually um became like a character when they were
trying to sell the TV fell in love with Elane.
That's a real guy. And he actually was like the
head of NBC for a while. Yeah, and like NBC's
hey day, he did a beautiful job of like picking
shows and stick him with them and steering him. And
that was when NBC was dominating. He had a degree
in psychology that had nothing to do with it. Yeah,
(40:05):
but don't you think psychology helped him with dealing with
you know, high powered people And no, I'll tell you what.
What did it? He was doing what he loved and
hence what he was good at. And if you do
that you will always succeed. Well, you know what, unless
you're a philosophy major. You sold me all right, So
(40:26):
that was from Owen. Thanks for that. You're awesome. Let
us know what you do. Like follow up, I'd like
to know, Owen. Yeah, if you go to Spain, they'd
like to hear about it. Or if you get a job,
I want to hear about it. All right, how old
is he? H? Five years so it's probably like three yeah,
probably somewhere in there. Whatever you do, Owen, good luck.
(40:48):
But if he's like he didn't be failed to mention
that I got a late start. I worked in a
factory for twenty years. You don't go travels Spain. Yes, uh,
if you want some advice for me and Chuck Man,
it's gonna open a floodgate, I think, Chuck Sure. You
can tweet short questions to us s y s K podcast.
(41:09):
You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff
you Should Know, You can send us an email to
stuff podcasts to discovery dot com, and you can always
go check out our website for answers and has all
of them. That's Stuff you Should Know dot com. For
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit House
(41:30):
Stuff Works dot com. This podcast is brought to you
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